| tifosi77 | 05-20-2002 04:18 AM |
Burns Loses Victory For lightweight flywheel
That is right Benedict Richard Burns that arrogant jerk has lost hiss victory in Rally Argentina
Richard Burns has lost his inherited victory on Rally Argentina when his Peugeot 206 was excluded for sporting an underweight flywheel.
*
Burns, who took the win when team-mate Marcus Gronholm was disqualified for a servicing infringement, loses the 10 points for victory because his flywheel was just 20 grams underweight.
*
The win instead goes to Carlos Sainz of Ford. It was the Spaniard's 24th victory at WRC level, and his first since Cyprus in 2000.
This means that Petter is promoted to Second, his first win is not that far away and this finally breaks the Peugeot stranglehold this year.:devil:
Richard Burns has lost his inherited victory on Rally Argentina when his Peugeot 206 was excluded for sporting an underweight flywheel.
*
Burns, who took the win when team-mate Marcus Gronholm was disqualified for a servicing infringement, loses the 10 points for victory because his flywheel was just 20 grams underweight.
*
The win instead goes to Carlos Sainz of Ford. It was the Spaniard's 24th victory at WRC level, and his first since Cyprus in 2000.
This means that Petter is promoted to Second, his first win is not that far away and this finally breaks the Peugeot stranglehold this year.:devil:
| trev555 | 05-20-2002 04:47 AM |
hmm
I'm sure that the flywheel was indeed underweight, but i'm beginning to suspect the organisers are looking for any excuse to make the championship a bit more even.
I reckon detailed scruiteneering of any of the top teams could come up with [I]something[/I] that wasn't quite right that they could hang a penalty on.
It does seem a bit heavy handed.
I reckon detailed scruiteneering of any of the top teams could come up with [I]something[/I] that wasn't quite right that they could hang a penalty on.
It does seem a bit heavy handed.
| Thug | 05-20-2002 07:42 AM |
The winners' cars are ripped apart and examined after every race. So I dont think they were specifically looking for anything illegal, just following standard procedure. Besides, how could you ever suspect someone of having too light a flywheel?
| Clegg | 05-20-2002 07:44 AM |
"hmmm make a note It sounded like burns car was reving a few miliseconds faster than the other cars..." :) hehehe
| Thug | 05-20-2002 07:50 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Clegg [/i]
[B]"hmmm make a note It sounded like burns car was reving a few miliseconds faster than the other cars..." :) hehehe [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
[B]"hmmm make a note It sounded like burns car was reving a few miliseconds faster than the other cars..." :) hehehe [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
| RacingBlue | 05-20-2002 07:57 AM |
This is about the third or fourth time the Pugs have been disqualified for something.
| orbit03 | 05-20-2002 08:32 AM |
I like how Peugot claimed it was a "genuine mistake". Yeah right!
From: [url]http://www.worldrallynews.com/index.shtml[/url]
Stewards award victory to Sainz
May 20, 2002
Ford driver Carlos Sainz was declared the winner of the Rally of Argentina six hours after the finish when Richard Burns's Peugeot was excluded.
The flywheel on Burns's engine was found to be the wrong weight. Peugeot admitted the error and the minutes of the stewards' meeting will say that the mistake was regarded as genuine.
Sainz therefore gains his first victory since the Cyprus Rally in 2000. It is his 24th World Championship rally win, bringing him level with record holder Tommi Makinen once more.
From: [url]http://www.worldrallynews.com/index.shtml[/url]
Stewards award victory to Sainz
May 20, 2002
Ford driver Carlos Sainz was declared the winner of the Rally of Argentina six hours after the finish when Richard Burns's Peugeot was excluded.
The flywheel on Burns's engine was found to be the wrong weight. Peugeot admitted the error and the minutes of the stewards' meeting will say that the mistake was regarded as genuine.
Sainz therefore gains his first victory since the Cyprus Rally in 2000. It is his 24th World Championship rally win, bringing him level with record holder Tommi Makinen once more.
| Dr. WOT | 05-20-2002 08:40 AM |
wow, from third to first without even turning over the motor
Skoda can't beleive their luck!
Skoda can't beleive their luck!
| Thug | 05-20-2002 09:39 AM |
Wow. This changes everything. I better Petter wouldve pushed even harder had he known 10 points were on the line. Then again, the same could be said for the experienced Sainz.
| brainrally | 05-20-2002 10:43 AM |
Peugeot still has a stranglehold. This is just one rally. You think they'd let this mistake happen again?
Their cars are as reliable as they need them. They have a large group of drivers to choose from. The cars have proven to be highly competitive on gravel. They nearly dominate on tarmac. Their only challengers this season are Subaru, who has a limited budget, and Ford, whose cars are currently worthless on tarmac.
The Fords weren't even in front any time during the rally. It was only the DSQ of both Pug front-runners, and Tommi's crash that put Ford in front. The Focus has lost ground to the other two. Perhaps the only reason a Focus wasn't out front was Colin's early mistake, putting him way back in the group. He did recover well enough to eventually end up in third (he would've been sixth if the Pugs and Tommi were still in).
For driver's title, the three leading drivers all drive for Peugeot. Right now Sainz is tied with Burns for 3rd. And only because no Peugeot driver got points this rally.
Their cars are as reliable as they need them. They have a large group of drivers to choose from. The cars have proven to be highly competitive on gravel. They nearly dominate on tarmac. Their only challengers this season are Subaru, who has a limited budget, and Ford, whose cars are currently worthless on tarmac.
The Fords weren't even in front any time during the rally. It was only the DSQ of both Pug front-runners, and Tommi's crash that put Ford in front. The Focus has lost ground to the other two. Perhaps the only reason a Focus wasn't out front was Colin's early mistake, putting him way back in the group. He did recover well enough to eventually end up in third (he would've been sixth if the Pugs and Tommi were still in).
For driver's title, the three leading drivers all drive for Peugeot. Right now Sainz is tied with Burns for 3rd. And only because no Peugeot driver got points this rally.
| Thug | 05-20-2002 10:53 AM |
IIRC, there's only 1 tarmac rally remaining though. So things [b]should[/b] start evening out in the constructor's title race.
| Jewbaru | 05-20-2002 11:26 AM |
The pugs have been doing well on gravel, but Subaru has shown they can contend on any surface. I have no doubts Puegeot will win the constructors this year, but it should get interesting really soon.
| Zahnster | 05-20-2002 01:10 PM |
Why would a WRC team at ANY time bring with them a part that was against the rules unless they planned to use it.
| Clegg | 05-20-2002 01:13 PM |
Even with the lighter fly wheel, he was over a minute behind tommi!
Burns sux! :)
Burns sux! :)
| WagonMonster | 05-20-2002 01:25 PM |
It's about time Peugeot got kicked off their high-horse....
Granted, they have some excellent drivers, but their total dominance as of late is a little suspect, to say the least. I'm not saying they're cheating (OK, maybe I am :lol: ) I just hate it when anything is so lopsided, I like to see some "sport" in the sport. ;)
Granted, they have some excellent drivers, but their total dominance as of late is a little suspect, to say the least. I'm not saying they're cheating (OK, maybe I am :lol: ) I just hate it when anything is so lopsided, I like to see some "sport" in the sport. ;)
| Jewbaru | 05-20-2002 01:28 PM |
Agree'd Wagon,
I guess it's a matter of time before the FIA steps in and revises some rules to make the sport(and F1) more competitive for the smaller teams.
I guess it's a matter of time before the FIA steps in and revises some rules to make the sport(and F1) more competitive for the smaller teams.
| Lifino | 05-20-2002 01:46 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WagonMonster [/i]
[B]It's about time Peugeot got kicked off their high-horse....
Granted, they have some excellent drivers, but their total dominance as of late is a little suspect, to say the least. I'm not saying they're cheating (OK, maybe I am :lol: ) I just hate it when anything is so lopsided, I like to see some "sport" in the sport. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, if that's how you feel just go watch some F1... Saying your a Ferrari fan;)
I don't have a problem with them doing so well. If Skoda came into the game and was in Pug's position I'd raise an eyebrow... But as it is Pugeot is a very experienced team, with excelent hardware, and very capable drivers. Plus they are putting lots of money into winning. Since the opening event the media has been talking about how Pug was in a fight of it's own, more money & more competing, while the other heavy hitters just didn't step up to the plate in the same fashion. Ford is in aging technology, and a smaller budget, Subaru and Mitsu are both in young cars (although fairly well figured out by now) and drivers who are new to the platforms... etc. If you ask me, if you look at all the factors, Pugeot has been in the position to win since the begining of the season.
It's not they are dominant... Just that they are the only ones competing at the level they are.
I think it's a real statement of his skill that Tommi has been in the position he has throughout the season. Driving a car that is publicaly accepted to be inferior, and a big change from those Mitsubishi cars he drove for a long time. If he could keep all the wheels on the course through to the end of the race he'd be getting some great points.
Props to Sainz too. The guy's like a train, steady and dependable. He's quiet and polite, his driving style is understated and not as showey but he gets good times...
Funny both Sainz and Tommi got their 24th win from the FIA sanctioning...
[B]It's about time Peugeot got kicked off their high-horse....
Granted, they have some excellent drivers, but their total dominance as of late is a little suspect, to say the least. I'm not saying they're cheating (OK, maybe I am :lol: ) I just hate it when anything is so lopsided, I like to see some "sport" in the sport. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, if that's how you feel just go watch some F1... Saying your a Ferrari fan;)
I don't have a problem with them doing so well. If Skoda came into the game and was in Pug's position I'd raise an eyebrow... But as it is Pugeot is a very experienced team, with excelent hardware, and very capable drivers. Plus they are putting lots of money into winning. Since the opening event the media has been talking about how Pug was in a fight of it's own, more money & more competing, while the other heavy hitters just didn't step up to the plate in the same fashion. Ford is in aging technology, and a smaller budget, Subaru and Mitsu are both in young cars (although fairly well figured out by now) and drivers who are new to the platforms... etc. If you ask me, if you look at all the factors, Pugeot has been in the position to win since the begining of the season.
It's not they are dominant... Just that they are the only ones competing at the level they are.
I think it's a real statement of his skill that Tommi has been in the position he has throughout the season. Driving a car that is publicaly accepted to be inferior, and a big change from those Mitsubishi cars he drove for a long time. If he could keep all the wheels on the course through to the end of the race he'd be getting some great points.
Props to Sainz too. The guy's like a train, steady and dependable. He's quiet and polite, his driving style is understated and not as showey but he gets good times...
Funny both Sainz and Tommi got their 24th win from the FIA sanctioning...
| brainrally | 05-20-2002 02:02 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by y2k4door [/i]
[B]IIRC, there's only 1 tarmac rally remaining though. So things [b]should[/b] start evening out in the constructor's title race. [/B][/QUOTE]
That would be the hopeful thought. But considering the Pug's performance at Cyprus and Argentina, it won't be easy to unseat them. And Marcus has proven he won't be an easy target.
I'm not suggesting that Ford and Subaru don't stand a chance, or that their drivers don't stand a chance. Anything can happen. I'm just saying that it's gonna be a tough battle for everyone against the Peugeot team.
[B]IIRC, there's only 1 tarmac rally remaining though. So things [b]should[/b] start evening out in the constructor's title race. [/B][/QUOTE]
That would be the hopeful thought. But considering the Pug's performance at Cyprus and Argentina, it won't be easy to unseat them. And Marcus has proven he won't be an easy target.
I'm not suggesting that Ford and Subaru don't stand a chance, or that their drivers don't stand a chance. Anything can happen. I'm just saying that it's gonna be a tough battle for everyone against the Peugeot team.
| brainrally | 05-20-2002 02:12 PM |
[QUOTE]Driving a car that is publicaly accepted to be inferior[/QUOTE]
I'm not one in the know on a lot of things, but where is this coming from that the Impreza is "pubically accepted to be inferior"? Inferior to what? Which cars have been challenging the Pugs the most in the rallies? Subarus, on tarmac and gravel.
The one thing I have noticed is that the Subaru seems to have suffered more mechanical problems than the Pugs. That's what took Petter out of Sweden. That's what hurt Petter in Cyprus.
I'm not one in the know on a lot of things, but where is this coming from that the Impreza is "pubically accepted to be inferior"? Inferior to what? Which cars have been challenging the Pugs the most in the rallies? Subarus, on tarmac and gravel.
The one thing I have noticed is that the Subaru seems to have suffered more mechanical problems than the Pugs. That's what took Petter out of Sweden. That's what hurt Petter in Cyprus.
| trojan9x | 05-20-2002 02:46 PM |
it's all about budget. puegot has the money for extensive research and development to keep their cars running in the upmost of shape for every race. if subaru had this same size budget they would be up at the top as well. it all boils down to money.
| johnfelstead | 05-20-2002 02:47 PM |
Damn shame this rally has been decided by the oficials.
Peugeot should be congratulated for taking this on the chin and not making a fuss over it in public, unlike Citroen in Monte Carlo.
The facts are there for all to see, Peugeot has invested heavily in the driver line up. It has 2 of the best gravel drivers, the best tarmac driver and another one to back them up who is a consistent alrounder.
Add to that a superb package that is a piece of packaging genious and you have an almost unbeatable combination.
Peugeot are going to win the manufacturers championship this year, it's a done deal as far as i am concerned. Driver championship wise it's going to be Burns or Gronholme. The car is just miles ahead of the oposition now.
I still see Petter and Tommi winning events, but they arent consistent enough to have an impact on the championship.
Peugeot should be congratulated for taking this on the chin and not making a fuss over it in public, unlike Citroen in Monte Carlo.
The facts are there for all to see, Peugeot has invested heavily in the driver line up. It has 2 of the best gravel drivers, the best tarmac driver and another one to back them up who is a consistent alrounder.
Add to that a superb package that is a piece of packaging genious and you have an almost unbeatable combination.
Peugeot are going to win the manufacturers championship this year, it's a done deal as far as i am concerned. Driver championship wise it's going to be Burns or Gronholme. The car is just miles ahead of the oposition now.
I still see Petter and Tommi winning events, but they arent consistent enough to have an impact on the championship.
| cyRally | 05-20-2002 03:04 PM |
[QUOTE]IIRC, there's only 1 tarmac rally remaining though. So things should start evening out in the constructor's title race[/QUOTE]
Actually there are two tarmac events left...Germany and Italy. They are back to back too.
Marcus is simply amazing on gravel. He has won every gravel rally since Australia last year. I think the pugs are great cars but the real secret to their success are their amazing drivers. Burns and Marcus are great on every surface. Rovanpera puts in brilliant drives here and there, and Panizzi is the best tarmac driver in the world right now.....its a potent combination of great drivers with a great car.
Actually there are two tarmac events left...Germany and Italy. They are back to back too.
Marcus is simply amazing on gravel. He has won every gravel rally since Australia last year. I think the pugs are great cars but the real secret to their success are their amazing drivers. Burns and Marcus are great on every surface. Rovanpera puts in brilliant drives here and there, and Panizzi is the best tarmac driver in the world right now.....its a potent combination of great drivers with a great car.
| Thug | 05-20-2002 03:06 PM |
Ah yes, I forgot about Italy.
| Geek Guy | 05-20-2002 04:24 PM |
What I don't understand is why a WRC team would even *have* parts that are illegal by FIA rules? You would think that it would be best to practice with what you are actually going to be driving instead of something less powerful?
Maybe I'm missing something on this...
Maybe I'm missing something on this...
| johnfelstead | 05-20-2002 04:53 PM |
It's a manufacturing error.
The flywheel is 20 grammes too light. Just for my American Cousins :lol: i'll convert that to ounces for you. :D
20 grammes = 0.705 ounces
Now can you see how marginal this was? Bloody shame really.
The flywheel is 20 grammes too light. Just for my American Cousins :lol: i'll convert that to ounces for you. :D
20 grammes = 0.705 ounces
Now can you see how marginal this was? Bloody shame really.
| LimeyWRX | 05-20-2002 08:50 PM |
If Team Pug had the same budget as Subaru or Ford, they would be back in the real world and not be such a dominating force. The Peugeot 206 was a new car 2 years ago and what better way to promote it than WRC. Iy worked for Subaru! Grenholm and Burns are both very good drivers however they aren't winning rallies on there own, Peugeot are piling loads of money into research and development. If Subaru and Ford had the same budget as Peugeot then WRC would be much closer and vica versa.
I'm not knocking Peugeot as they are good team/car/drivers but the sport has become money orientated.
I myself have followed rallying since I was at school, and have stuck beehind Colin McRae since his first championship win in 95. He is still one of the best ever, even if he does make mistakes but this is what happens when you drive to the extreme because the car won't deliver the goods. Sign the Citroen contract Colin.
I'm not knocking Peugeot as they are good team/car/drivers but the sport has become money orientated.
I myself have followed rallying since I was at school, and have stuck beehind Colin McRae since his first championship win in 95. He is still one of the best ever, even if he does make mistakes but this is what happens when you drive to the extreme because the car won't deliver the goods. Sign the Citroen contract Colin.
| randy zimmer | 05-20-2002 09:15 PM |
20 grams
Wear on the flywheel can cause a weight difference, the margin just was cut too close and a slipping of pressure plate pressure could mean the difference.
rz
rz
| kotaro | 05-20-2002 10:37 PM |
Excuse my ignorance, but what are flywheels for? :confused:
| randy zimmer | 05-20-2002 10:53 PM |
use of flywheels
In modern cars, flywheels have multiple purposes.
1. to start the car, a ring gear is attached to it that the starter engages - makes a gear ratio that a small motor can turn the big engine.
2. to make the car move, stop and shift, a coupling (clutch or torque converter) is attached to the flywheel and with a clutch, doubles as a friction surface for the clutch disk.
3. and primarily for its name - is used as a weight to smooth out the power pulses of the engine. the spinning weight of the flywheel offsets the big thrust of one 4-stroke combustion and swings the crank through the other 630 degrees before the next one.
Racing cars want less rotating mass to get up to speed quicker and brake faster.
If you don't need smoothness, you can lighten it up and gain that desired quickness (less rotating mass to effect).
Many racing clutches give up diameter and make up the lost area with extra plates and clamping force. This also lowers the flywheel effect of the clutch. Smaller ring gears allow lower engine placement and, you guessed it - less inertia.
Thats why racers want to make the flywheel as light as rules and strength allow.
A broken flywheel can cut off your foot.
rz
1. to start the car, a ring gear is attached to it that the starter engages - makes a gear ratio that a small motor can turn the big engine.
2. to make the car move, stop and shift, a coupling (clutch or torque converter) is attached to the flywheel and with a clutch, doubles as a friction surface for the clutch disk.
3. and primarily for its name - is used as a weight to smooth out the power pulses of the engine. the spinning weight of the flywheel offsets the big thrust of one 4-stroke combustion and swings the crank through the other 630 degrees before the next one.
Racing cars want less rotating mass to get up to speed quicker and brake faster.
If you don't need smoothness, you can lighten it up and gain that desired quickness (less rotating mass to effect).
Many racing clutches give up diameter and make up the lost area with extra plates and clamping force. This also lowers the flywheel effect of the clutch. Smaller ring gears allow lower engine placement and, you guessed it - less inertia.
Thats why racers want to make the flywheel as light as rules and strength allow.
A broken flywheel can cut off your foot.
rz
| kotaro | 05-20-2002 11:11 PM |
thanks a lot :)
uhhhhh is this a joke?:
"A broken flywheel can cut off your foot. "
uhhhhh is this a joke?:
"A broken flywheel can cut off your foot. "
| randy zimmer | 05-20-2002 11:31 PM |
no joke
A famous drag racer here in the states had his foot cut off by a flywheel that broke and cut his car in half too.
That comment was added to make guys who think they'll make a paperthin flywheel to go faster, think twice.
I had one explode and it was VERY exciting, locking the throttle linkage wide open, cut a brake line, broke a tie rod end and pierced the rim and tire, at 100mph. It missed my foot.
rz
That comment was added to make guys who think they'll make a paperthin flywheel to go faster, think twice.
I had one explode and it was VERY exciting, locking the throttle linkage wide open, cut a brake line, broke a tie rod end and pierced the rim and tire, at 100mph. It missed my foot.
rz
| kotaro | 05-20-2002 11:57 PM |
wow :eek: .....
| tifosi77 | 05-21-2002 01:33 AM |
In the midwest a year or two ago a flywheel broke at a Kart race and killed a guy when it hit him in the head Randy was not joking they can be dangerous, I think that he threw it in there to discourage a knucklehead from making a 1 kg flywheel
| tifosi77 | 05-21-2002 01:36 AM |
What bothered me the most was Gronholm's comment about his exclusion being "Subaru Bull" sorry Marcus but it was a rally official and not a Subaru team person that reported his infraction
| XT6Wagon | 05-21-2002 02:29 AM |
Flywheel explosions are no joke. One person's life was saved only by the fact that they had a helmet AND the window up. the fragment actualy went through the helmet, but slowed by the glass and helmet it only gave a deep cut instead of something worse.
| brainrally | 05-21-2002 11:13 AM |
[QUOTE]and with a clutch, doubles as a friction surface for the clutch disk. [/QUOTE]
I wasn't aware that a flywheel might be used as an extra friction surface. Doesn't make sense to me, but then, I'm no auto mechanic/engineer. :confused:
I wasn't aware that a flywheel might be used as an extra friction surface. Doesn't make sense to me, but then, I'm no auto mechanic/engineer. :confused:
| johnfelstead | 05-21-2002 04:44 PM |
the flywheel and clutch presure plate are the two surfaces the clutch plate runs against. The clutch plate (usually 2 or 3 plates in rally engines ) runs one side against the flywheel and one side against the clutch diapham presure plate. Its centre is on the gearbox input shaft, so when the engine crank is mechanically connected to the gearbox input shaft by the clutch diaphram clamping the clutch plate against the spinning flywheel you get drive. (the flywheel is bolted to the end of the grankshaft)
This is quite ironic actually, as the 206 was originally designed with no flywheel, however they couldnt get the engine to work so reverted to a conventional flywheel design.
The flywheel does two main jobs, it enables the engine to rotate with some inertia so it is less likely to stop and helps dampen out the firing vibrations. It is also used to transfer the torque to the gearbox via the clutch.
There is a compromise in weight of the flywheel, it has to be ultra light for fast throttle response yet heavy for inertia/damping. Thats why one of the more popular tuning mods on a road car going racing is to reduce the flywheel weight, it improves response but makes the engine lumpy and usually requires a higher tickover.
This is quite ironic actually, as the 206 was originally designed with no flywheel, however they couldnt get the engine to work so reverted to a conventional flywheel design.
The flywheel does two main jobs, it enables the engine to rotate with some inertia so it is less likely to stop and helps dampen out the firing vibrations. It is also used to transfer the torque to the gearbox via the clutch.
There is a compromise in weight of the flywheel, it has to be ultra light for fast throttle response yet heavy for inertia/damping. Thats why one of the more popular tuning mods on a road car going racing is to reduce the flywheel weight, it improves response but makes the engine lumpy and usually requires a higher tickover.
| brainrally | 05-21-2002 06:12 PM |
Thanks Jon, now it makes sense to me. I was thinking the flywheel was attached to the clutch pressure plate with a pressure plate on either side of the clutch plate. Something like:
flywheel:Pressure Plate:Clutch Plate:Pressure Plate
Never mind. It's not important.
flywheel:Pressure Plate:Clutch Plate:Pressure Plate
Never mind. It's not important.
| MyWRXkillsyours | 05-21-2002 06:32 PM |
Holy Crap, I didn't know flywheels killed people. Anyways I liked Carlos Sainz' comment when a tv interviewer told him that Petter would be driving more conservatively to maintain his 4th place position. He responded,"Do you really believe that?"
| ChrisDP | 05-21-2002 11:39 PM |
Yes indeed, for the uninitiated that is why "NHRA-approved" bellhousings are mandatory for big-league drag racing. I believe the testing procedure for that involves spinning a flywheel at around 10,000rpm while it's being attacked by a saw blade. The saw blade eventually cuts through and makes the flywheel explode, and the bellhousing's job is to contain the flywheel parts. This is also what they use flywheel scattershields for.
| Nordstone | 05-22-2002 12:42 AM |
Recalling the events of each rally (other than the tarmac domination), reliability is probably the biggest difference between Peugeot and Subaru this year.
When the cars have been problem free, they've been very close.
When the cars have been problem free, they've been very close.
| chiraoka | 05-22-2002 01:43 PM |
only 20 grams ?????
Uhhhmmmm the flywheel on Burns car was 20gr less than the original homologated one - tolerance. So maybe it was a little more ..... ;)
Carlos H.
Carlos H.
| kgb | 05-22-2002 07:14 PM |
Wow, who would have thought eh? :rolleyes: I didn't think things would roll out like this... but still, realistically, Peugeot and either Gronholm or Burns will take home the trophies at the end of the season (unless Tommi stops crashing his car, and the car doesn't break-down)
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