| AndrewSS | 11-03-2005 01:17 PM |
Tire wear with re070's and performance alignment settings, help! *pics*
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I posted this in the tire/wheel forum, i didnt get much feedback I guess maybe you guys could help me out.
I have 5,600k miles on my stock tires, and i havnt rotated them yet, they are significantly worn (9 autox events, and 2 trackdays) i skipped rotating them 2 times because of the rear tires being cupped from the trackdays. But anyway i think im desperate now to get these things rotated. Take a look at these pictures and tell me if i should rotate them, and if so in what pattern.
FYI, I have -1degree camber up front and -.75degree camber back, the rear got some toe (in? i cant remeber is it in or out...i forgot for rear, i didnt set it) Anyway, given my tire wearing, what do you think about my alignment settings? For next season, do you think i should adjust my settings at all? With the objective of best settings for autox, what do you think I should change? I might get the alignment set differently soon when i get my winter tires on.
Now about rotating...
either this pattern: [IMG]https://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/tiretech/rotate5.gif[/IMG] OR [IMG]https://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/tiretech/rotate1.gif[/IMG]
Here are my tires... sorry about lack of photo quality, but maybe you can help me out. Thanks!
front left
[img]http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frontleft4xg.jpg[/img]
front left #2 pic (the fronts are identicle, except my front left had some tire flake off from the trackdays, circled in red)
[img]http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frontleft26xm.jpg[/img]
rear left
[img]http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rearleft8hg.jpg[/img]
rear right
[img]http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rearright6dz.jpg[/img]
As you can see from the pictures, my rear tires insides are well worn, and my fronts outsides are will worn.
Again, thanks :banana:
I have 5,600k miles on my stock tires, and i havnt rotated them yet, they are significantly worn (9 autox events, and 2 trackdays) i skipped rotating them 2 times because of the rear tires being cupped from the trackdays. But anyway i think im desperate now to get these things rotated. Take a look at these pictures and tell me if i should rotate them, and if so in what pattern.
FYI, I have -1degree camber up front and -.75degree camber back, the rear got some toe (in? i cant remeber is it in or out...i forgot for rear, i didnt set it) Anyway, given my tire wearing, what do you think about my alignment settings? For next season, do you think i should adjust my settings at all? With the objective of best settings for autox, what do you think I should change? I might get the alignment set differently soon when i get my winter tires on.
Now about rotating...
either this pattern: [IMG]https://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/tiretech/rotate5.gif[/IMG] OR [IMG]https://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/tiretech/rotate1.gif[/IMG]
Here are my tires... sorry about lack of photo quality, but maybe you can help me out. Thanks!
front left
[img]http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frontleft4xg.jpg[/img]
front left #2 pic (the fronts are identicle, except my front left had some tire flake off from the trackdays, circled in red)
[img]http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frontleft26xm.jpg[/img]
rear left
[img]http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rearleft8hg.jpg[/img]
rear right
[img]http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rearright6dz.jpg[/img]
As you can see from the pictures, my rear tires insides are well worn, and my fronts outsides are will worn.
Again, thanks :banana:
| drees | 11-03-2005 01:21 PM |
Pic links don't work.
Most people just rotate tires from front to back keeping the tires on the same side, usually this is sufficient unless you're really wearing one side faster than the other, usually due to high-G freeway clover leaf fun. :)
Most people just rotate tires from front to back keeping the tires on the same side, usually this is sufficient unless you're really wearing one side faster than the other, usually due to high-G freeway clover leaf fun. :)
| supermarkus | 11-03-2005 01:28 PM |
Don't paste in the truncated links. Owners manual says rotate from front to back, never option B above. I suppose you could cross them up if you unmount the tires.
| Calamity Jesus | 11-03-2005 01:39 PM |
The re070's are asymmetrical.. but aren't directional, so rotate them however you want. It doesn't matter.
Directional tires can only be rotated front to back.
Directional tires can only be rotated front to back.
| AndrewSS | 11-03-2005 01:55 PM |
pictures fixed.
| trhoppe | 11-03-2005 02:26 PM |
1) Looks like you have toe out. Inside on the rear is worn more then front.
2) You need more front camber.
3) Rotate however you want, it doesn't matter.
-Tom
2) You need more front camber.
3) Rotate however you want, it doesn't matter.
-Tom
| AUTOwrXER | 11-03-2005 04:05 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]1) Looks like you have toe out. Inside on the rear is worn more then front.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
My thought exactly. Looks like you have a lot of rear toe. Remember that toe wears tires faster than anything during street driving.
Oh, and you need a _lot_ more front camber... ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
My thought exactly. Looks like you have a lot of rear toe. Remember that toe wears tires faster than anything during street driving.
Oh, and you need a _lot_ more front camber... ;)
| AndrewSS | 11-03-2005 04:11 PM |
but im maxed with front negative camber from the factory, i would love camber plates but im staying in AS
| AUTOwrXER | 11-03-2005 04:15 PM |
If it's just for autocross then your setup should include max front camber (within AS allowances) and some toe out in the rear. However, don't be surprised when your tires wear as yours have.
If tire wear is your primary concern then you need to get rid of the toe.
If tire wear is your primary concern then you need to get rid of the toe.
| AndrewSS | 11-03-2005 04:27 PM |
^that is how i am setup, but i plan to switch my settings when i get my winter tires on... for next season i suppose i will go back to the same setup... do you guys say just adjust toe out back? in stock form can you adjust front toe that it would be advantageous (sp?) for autox use, because as is i only have toe in the back. thanks for all your help!
| AUTOwrXER | 11-03-2005 04:32 PM |
You can adjust front and rear toe. If you were looking for the best tire wear possible, run zero toe all around. I'd still maximize front camber (as you can't get enough to affect wear anyway) and leave about half a degree of rear camber.
FWIW I wouldn't ever go lower than -.5* rear camber, even if the car is understeering. You can't put any power down on corner exit without at least that much camber.
FWIW I wouldn't ever go lower than -.5* rear camber, even if the car is understeering. You can't put any power down on corner exit without at least that much camber.
| AUTOwrXER | 11-03-2005 04:35 PM |
Oh, and to answer your question about the autox setup, adding some front toe out will help the car's turn-in response. It will also help Ackerman in mid-corner until you get to the point where you are dragging the inside tire. I'd run at least a little toe-out in the front and try 1/4" or more once to see if it got better or worse. Set the rear toe to help mid-corner balance. Too much rear toe, however, and you will have problems putting down power (just like you had too little rear camber).
| AndrewSS | 11-03-2005 04:44 PM |
thanks autowrxer
| ratt_finkel | 11-03-2005 04:46 PM |
Get the big front bar. That will help significantly.
| WRXedUSA | 11-03-2005 04:52 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]1) Looks like you have toe out. Inside on the rear is worn more then front.
2) You need more front camber.
3) Rotate however you want, it doesn't matter.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
12345
2) You need more front camber.
3) Rotate however you want, it doesn't matter.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
12345
| AndrewSS | 11-03-2005 05:32 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]Get the big front bar. That will help significantly.[/QUOTE]
i have the whiteline 27-29mm FSB, set at 29
i have the whiteline 27-29mm FSB, set at 29
| trhoppe | 11-03-2005 05:33 PM |
Don't forget that rear toe is real easy to set. Set it when you get to an autox, and then back to 0 when you leave. A total of 45 seconds per side to adjust. You don't have to get the car off the ground either.
For the front camber, use a come-a-long and a big hammer + loosening all the front bolts. You can get close to -1.75 camber, even in the 05s.
-Tom
For the front camber, use a come-a-long and a big hammer + loosening all the front bolts. You can get close to -1.75 camber, even in the 05s.
-Tom
| ratt_finkel | 11-03-2005 06:04 PM |
[QUOTE=AndrewSS]i have the whiteline 27-29mm FSB, set at 29[/QUOTE]
Get the 32mm, every little bit will help.
Get the 32mm, every little bit will help.
| jweiss | 11-03-2005 07:36 PM |
Just be glad you stil have tread. Just threw my RE-070s out at 6500 miles (4 autox, 1 track day). They were past the wear bars, but wearing evenly across the width with -2.5 front, -1.8 rear, 0 toe.
| AndrewSS | 11-03-2005 08:05 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]Get the 32mm, every little bit will help.[/QUOTE]
i dont think im going to buy another bar, how much is that strano... just curious
i dont think im going to buy another bar, how much is that strano... just curious
| AndrewSS | 11-03-2005 08:08 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Don't forget that rear toe is real easy to set. Set it when you get to an autox, and then back to 0 when you leave. A total of 45 seconds per side to adjust. You don't have to get the car off the ground either.
For the front camber, use a come-a-long and a big hammer + loosening all the front bolts. You can get close to -1.75 camber, even in the 05s.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
yeah, rear toe does look easy, i might just do that. Are you serious about getting -1.75 camber up front, i took my car to a guy intown that works with sti's and evo's a lot ( [url]www.meadengineering.com[/url] ) and he said i was maxed at -1 degree in one of my fronts, then like -1.25 in the other so it was set at -1 at both. If you think you can get close to -1.75 then what ways are you adjusting it? The bolt can only do so much as i understand it.
thanks for all the comments i appreciate it
For the front camber, use a come-a-long and a big hammer + loosening all the front bolts. You can get close to -1.75 camber, even in the 05s.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
yeah, rear toe does look easy, i might just do that. Are you serious about getting -1.75 camber up front, i took my car to a guy intown that works with sti's and evo's a lot ( [url]www.meadengineering.com[/url] ) and he said i was maxed at -1 degree in one of my fronts, then like -1.25 in the other so it was set at -1 at both. If you think you can get close to -1.75 then what ways are you adjusting it? The bolt can only do so much as i understand it.
thanks for all the comments i appreciate it
| Ryokosman | 11-03-2005 10:02 PM |
Adventure Subaru just did a alignment on my 05 STi. Front is -2.7 camber with 0 toe. Just using the stock adj bolt. No plates.
| trhoppe | 11-03-2005 10:11 PM |
They either measured wrong or gave you an aftermarket front camber bolt.
You have to remember that 99% of alignment shops, including most dealerships, are dumbasses.
-Tom
You have to remember that 99% of alignment shops, including most dealerships, are dumbasses.
-Tom
| Ryokosman | 11-03-2005 10:12 PM |
Nope. Neither. Had to egg out the hole a bit. Had already did it to get to 1.5 but really went all out this time.
| trhoppe | 11-03-2005 10:14 PM |
Thats not really the best idea considering all the other options out there. Its also not "using the stock bolt" as you described above, as you aren't really using the bolt as an adjustment bolt anymore, you are using it as a crash bolt.
-Tom
-Tom
| Ryokosman | 11-03-2005 10:19 PM |
True but I'm not spending money on plates b/c I'm waiting till the stock struts kick the bucket. Then its oilovers with plates. This is the next best thing till then.
| awesome2.5rs | 11-04-2005 01:02 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]They either measured wrong or gave you an aftermarket front camber bolt.
You have to remember that 99% of alignment shops, including most dealerships, are dumbasses.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I think that number is quite extreme. Coming from a dealer, we try to have 100% customer satisfaction, no matter what the issue or type of person.
You have to remember that 99% of alignment shops, including most dealerships, are dumbasses.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I think that number is quite extreme. Coming from a dealer, we try to have 100% customer satisfaction, no matter what the issue or type of person.
| Car vs. Driver | 11-04-2005 09:41 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Don't forget that rear toe is real easy to set. Set it when you get to an autox, and then back to 0 when you leave. A total of 45 seconds per side to adjust. You don't have to get the car off the ground either.
For the front camber, use a come-a-long and a big hammer + loosening all the front bolts. You can get close to -1.75 camber, even in the 05s.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Tom ... do you have a link to instructions on how to do this? I didn't know it was so simple.
For the front camber, use a come-a-long and a big hammer + loosening all the front bolts. You can get close to -1.75 camber, even in the 05s.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Tom ... do you have a link to instructions on how to do this? I didn't know it was so simple.
| trhoppe | 11-04-2005 09:53 AM |
1) Look under the back of the car, you will see the 22mm adjustment bolt with tick marks on it.
2) Mark the subframe, preferably where one of the big ticks is, with a screwdriver for your 0 toe setting.
3) Loosen the 17mm lock nut on the front side of that bolt. Easiest thing to do is to put a 17mm open wrench on it and hit it with a hammer towards the exhaust. You only have the break it, not totally loosen it to move the adjustment bolt.
4) Move the 22mm adjustment bolt to where you want it. If you move the wrench to the right, you are getting toe in, moving the wrench to the left gives you toe out.
5) One tick mark on the bolt is 1/16" of an inch of adjustment on that one wheel. This way, moving one tick mark on each side gives you 1/8" toe out.
6) While HOLDING the 22mm and making sure the adjustment bolt doesn't move, tighten the 17mm back and bang on it with the hammer towards the passenger side.
Repeat before you go home. I've adjusted between runs plenty of times, takes just a few mins after your first time.
-Tom
2) Mark the subframe, preferably where one of the big ticks is, with a screwdriver for your 0 toe setting.
3) Loosen the 17mm lock nut on the front side of that bolt. Easiest thing to do is to put a 17mm open wrench on it and hit it with a hammer towards the exhaust. You only have the break it, not totally loosen it to move the adjustment bolt.
4) Move the 22mm adjustment bolt to where you want it. If you move the wrench to the right, you are getting toe in, moving the wrench to the left gives you toe out.
5) One tick mark on the bolt is 1/16" of an inch of adjustment on that one wheel. This way, moving one tick mark on each side gives you 1/8" toe out.
6) While HOLDING the 22mm and making sure the adjustment bolt doesn't move, tighten the 17mm back and bang on it with the hammer towards the passenger side.
Repeat before you go home. I've adjusted between runs plenty of times, takes just a few mins after your first time.
-Tom
| Car vs. Driver | 11-04-2005 10:02 AM |
copy->paste->print ...
Thanks Tom, that's very helpful! The check is in the mail :lol:
Thanks Tom, that's very helpful! The check is in the mail :lol:
| AUTOwrXER | 11-04-2005 11:56 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Thats not really the best idea considering all the other options out there. Its also not "using the stock bolt" as you described above, as you aren't really using the bolt as an adjustment bolt anymore, you are using it as a crash bolt.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Also not AS legal for AndrewSS's purposes.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Also not AS legal for AndrewSS's purposes.
| trhoppe | 11-04-2005 11:59 AM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Also not AS legal for AndrewSS's purposes.[/QUOTE]
Yea, that too ;)
Yea, that too ;)
| Ryokosman | 11-04-2005 12:04 PM |
Oh sorry. I'm not a AutoX guy. Just do track days and weekends in the hills.
| trhoppe | 11-04-2005 12:07 PM |
[QUOTE=awesome2.5rs]I think that number is quite extreme. Coming from a dealer, we try to have 100% customer satisfaction, no matter what the issue or type of person.[/QUOTE]
Well in that case, its awesome that you are the exception rather then the norm :)
[QUOTE=Ryokosman]Oh sorry. I'm not a AutoX guy. Just do track days and weekends in the hills.[/QUOTE] And nothing wrong with that or anything, I was just commenting that your comment was misleading considering you said "using only the stock bolt"
-Tom
Well in that case, its awesome that you are the exception rather then the norm :)
[QUOTE=Ryokosman]Oh sorry. I'm not a AutoX guy. Just do track days and weekends in the hills.[/QUOTE] And nothing wrong with that or anything, I was just commenting that your comment was misleading considering you said "using only the stock bolt"
-Tom
| Ryokosman | 11-04-2005 02:55 PM |
I hadn't a clue that you couldn't do something like that at a autox. Crap I've thought about trying but at the stage of mods my cars at I'd probably be in some kinda super modified outlaw class or something! :lol:
Yea your right about being misleading. But I wasn't thinking that when I posted... I'll keep my trap shut when you autox guys speak up next time! ;)
Yea your right about being misleading. But I wasn't thinking that when I posted... I'll keep my trap shut when you autox guys speak up next time! ;)
| MrDestructo | 11-06-2005 09:39 AM |
[QUOTE=Ryokosman]I hadn't a clue that you couldn't do something like that at a autox.[/QUOTE]
You can, it just puts you in a different class.
So Tom, per your instructions are you recommending 1/8" toe for the STI in AS(I'm also running the stock 070's)? I have max front camber, 0.75 degrees in the rear, and zero toe all around. With adjusting tire pressures on my STOCK car it seems to handle fairly well except mid corners. Will toe on in the rear help this?
Thanks
MF
You can, it just puts you in a different class.
So Tom, per your instructions are you recommending 1/8" toe for the STI in AS(I'm also running the stock 070's)? I have max front camber, 0.75 degrees in the rear, and zero toe all around. With adjusting tire pressures on my STOCK car it seems to handle fairly well except mid corners. Will toe on in the rear help this?
Thanks
MF
| trhoppe | 11-06-2005 09:49 AM |
A problem with the STi is that any changes you make to loosen the car up mid corner have an effect on the corner exit and putting down power. You have to make sacrifices somewhere and balance everything out so the car is the fastest. Toe out might work for you as it will definetly help mid-corner, but it could make corner exit too loose. You will never know until your try it with your car and your setup.
-Tom
-Tom
| DrBiggly | 11-06-2005 02:13 PM |
Tom is right on the money. The answer to everything is: it depends. A suspension is a huge system of compromises so you don't ever just gain in one area without some sort of detrimental effect in another. My personal philosophy is that when trying to find the happy middle ground, make sure you know what "too much" feels like rather than just going little by little. Try the "too much" setting and back down from there to get to the happy medium. :)
-Biggly
-Biggly
| silver arrow | 01-28-2006 10:34 PM |
Good info
| AndrewSS | 01-29-2006 01:54 AM |
Hey, just saw this bumped, I thought I would say...
Just a few weeks ago I finally got a good alignment, my specs as listed earlier were significantly off. My alignment was misleading, infact I had -.03 and -.04 in the front for camber, then in rear I had factory -1.4 camber... then my toe was allllllllll over the place which sucked.
Anyway, I finally got a good alignment on a real nice machine with some friends. I have -1.1 camber in my front left and -.9 in my front right then still the stock -1.4 in both backs, then zero'ed out my toe all around... To say the least the car feels a lot better, it tramlines a bit but thats not an issue.
So you guys seem to think that a 2005 STi can get -1.5 or even -1.75 camber in front.... are you serious, we were playing with both the bolts and didnt get past -1.1 can you go into good detail about how to try for those bigger numbers?
Also, rear camber isnt adjustable right? Only thing you could do is loosen the bolt and tug on the rear strut and maybe get like a tenth or 2 of positive camber to get that number closer to zero (at -1.4 now)
Anyway, I hope these new questions can be explained... thanks!
Just a few weeks ago I finally got a good alignment, my specs as listed earlier were significantly off. My alignment was misleading, infact I had -.03 and -.04 in the front for camber, then in rear I had factory -1.4 camber... then my toe was allllllllll over the place which sucked.
Anyway, I finally got a good alignment on a real nice machine with some friends. I have -1.1 camber in my front left and -.9 in my front right then still the stock -1.4 in both backs, then zero'ed out my toe all around... To say the least the car feels a lot better, it tramlines a bit but thats not an issue.
So you guys seem to think that a 2005 STi can get -1.5 or even -1.75 camber in front.... are you serious, we were playing with both the bolts and didnt get past -1.1 can you go into good detail about how to try for those bigger numbers?
Also, rear camber isnt adjustable right? Only thing you could do is loosen the bolt and tug on the rear strut and maybe get like a tenth or 2 of positive camber to get that number closer to zero (at -1.4 now)
Anyway, I hope these new questions can be explained... thanks!
| AndrewSS | 01-31-2006 01:43 PM |
anyone?
| sciolist | 01-31-2006 01:56 PM |
I was able to get close to -1.5 in front on my OEM '04 suspension. My understanding is that the '05 OEM suspension allows for more like -1.0 or a little less, so I think you are correct.
The rears are not designed for camber adjustment. As you say, there is some rattle room, though.
Going back to your original query, you should be rotating wheels more often. Particularly with an AS alignment, I think you sould be keeping a very close eye on wear. This is just one more reason to quit fooling around and get a set of race tires. You have to swap wheels each day anyway. It doesn't really take any more effort to get the tires in the best locations on the car.
The rears are not designed for camber adjustment. As you say, there is some rattle room, though.
Going back to your original query, you should be rotating wheels more often. Particularly with an AS alignment, I think you sould be keeping a very close eye on wear. This is just one more reason to quit fooling around and get a set of race tires. You have to swap wheels each day anyway. It doesn't really take any more effort to get the tires in the best locations on the car.
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