| gary p | 09-12-2002 12:45 PM |
2.5 RS trophys in STX; STS exclusion is immenent
Ralph Prieb proved me and a lot of other people wrong by putting a 2.5 RS into the trophies at nationals. I still think the RS will have a tough time of it as the WRX, Integra Type R, and E30 BMW M3 are further developed, but it is clearly more competitive that I thought.
This is probably the nail in the coffin for those of us hoping to see the 2.5RS stay in STS.
Congrats to Ralph. Now please pardon me while I go eat some crow :o
This is probably the nail in the coffin for those of us hoping to see the 2.5RS stay in STS.
Congrats to Ralph. Now please pardon me while I go eat some crow :o
| Warp3 | 09-12-2002 01:53 PM |
Yes, BUT the top THREE trophies in STS are Honda Civics!!! The highest placing Subaru is 5th (4th is a Sentra)! (and STS [b]IS[/b] pretty well developed...STX will get MUCH faster).
[url]http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/nationals/2002/results/sts.html[/url]
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
STS 729 -- CCar Region
[url]http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/nationals/2002/results/sts.html[/url]
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
STS 729 -- CCar Region
| Opie | 09-12-2002 09:48 PM |
If the RS placing in STX put a nail in the coffin....the 4 other car models in front of the closest RS in STS ripped all of the nails back out...obviouse that the RS does not need to be moved out of STS, any fool can see that.
| 97itr153 | 09-12-2002 10:54 PM |
No Way !!!
The quality of drivers in STX is FAR FAR lower than those competing in STS. That is the ONLY reason the 2.5 RS trophied in STX.
I quite sure the SCCA will keep the 2.5 RS will stay in STS.
I quite sure the SCCA will keep the 2.5 RS will stay in STS.
| jeddy | 09-13-2002 01:32 AM |
Honestly, the SCCA can move the RS for all i care. Yes, i do drive one, and i love running in STS. However, locally, there are at most 5-8 drivers in STS, and zero to 2 or 3 in STX. In two of the places i regularly compete, there's only 3 or 4 of us in STS. Two of those are in my car (me and my brother). ;] I'd be ok with STX and STS all running together in fact. I think there's only one non-Subaru STS guy around these parts, in a Celica GTS. Oh wait, there's a new guy in Sierra Vista with an RSX.
If AWD gets kicked to STX, that may be motivation enough to do the things that i've avoided in order to stay in STS. Like ripping out the hood scoop plate for good, and putting in that Supercharger, or those Cobb street cams, hehe. Seriously though, if they stick us in STX, i'll just be in with a WRX with coilovers and all the STX allowed engine mods, and a ITR that trades off top STX time with that WRX. Nooo proooblem. It'll still be fun to drive around fast. I may even take to learning to drift properly. :devil:
Being in STX will kill any desire i might have to compete at a National level next year of course. I don't have the finances to max out my car for any class. Even Stock (nice shocks and race tires are expensive, hehe).
If AWD gets kicked to STX, that may be motivation enough to do the things that i've avoided in order to stay in STS. Like ripping out the hood scoop plate for good, and putting in that Supercharger, or those Cobb street cams, hehe. Seriously though, if they stick us in STX, i'll just be in with a WRX with coilovers and all the STX allowed engine mods, and a ITR that trades off top STX time with that WRX. Nooo proooblem. It'll still be fun to drive around fast. I may even take to learning to drift properly. :devil:
Being in STX will kill any desire i might have to compete at a National level next year of course. I don't have the finances to max out my car for any class. Even Stock (nice shocks and race tires are expensive, hehe).
| Kostamojen | 09-13-2002 02:29 AM |
I agree Jeddy... In my area, ST-S is MASSIVLY competitive!!! Lots of great drivers who go every week and have their cars tuned to kill.
Heck, even in HS (which is what my 1.8 ran in stock) there are some Focus's running on Falkens and stuff that murdered me :p
And Ive already proven I can beat WRX's, and ST-X is very empty round these parts too...
Heck, even in HS (which is what my 1.8 ran in stock) there are some Focus's running on Falkens and stuff that murdered me :p
And Ive already proven I can beat WRX's, and ST-X is very empty round these parts too...
| Brett555 | 09-13-2002 11:36 AM |
Re: No Way !!!
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 97itr153 [/i]
[B]The quality of drivers in STX is FAR FAR lower than those competing in STS. That is the ONLY reason the 2.5 RS trophied in STX.
[/QUOTE]
I don't know if I'd go that far. Jeff Brown who just won STX at Nat's is an awesome driver, and he wasn't even driving his own car (he ran most of the season in his own stock Type R with Falkens). He trophied in G Stock last year, which was one of the most competetive classes. I think STX is going to get bigger and bigger, and the cars/drivers will get faster and faster.
[B]The quality of drivers in STX is FAR FAR lower than those competing in STS. That is the ONLY reason the 2.5 RS trophied in STX.
[/QUOTE]
I don't know if I'd go that far. Jeff Brown who just won STX at Nat's is an awesome driver, and he wasn't even driving his own car (he ran most of the season in his own stock Type R with Falkens). He trophied in G Stock last year, which was one of the most competetive classes. I think STX is going to get bigger and bigger, and the cars/drivers will get faster and faster.
| TheWRX | 09-13-2002 11:46 AM |
We get a good turnout in STX here in the StL region. We typically have 6-10 cars, consisting of a handfull of WRXs, a couple of Preludes, an ITR started showing up recently, a Civic that dropped out of STS (high-flow cat), and some occasional visitors, like a Sentra Spec-V.
Most of the cars, especially the WRXs, aren't even close to being fully developed to the rules yet. Still, the class has become more competitive during the course of the season. In the last few events, the STX winning time would typically have been good enough to place 2nd or 3rd in STS (out of ~15 cars there). With better prepared cars and improving driving skills (many of us WRX drivers are newbies), I think that the level will get much higher over the next one or two years, and the raw times in STX (index is a different story...) will be faster than STS.
Most of the cars, especially the WRXs, aren't even close to being fully developed to the rules yet. Still, the class has become more competitive during the course of the season. In the last few events, the STX winning time would typically have been good enough to place 2nd or 3rd in STS (out of ~15 cars there). With better prepared cars and improving driving skills (many of us WRX drivers are newbies), I think that the level will get much higher over the next one or two years, and the raw times in STX (index is a different story...) will be faster than STS.
| 97itr153 | 09-14-2002 12:43 AM |
PAX for open class WINNERS at nationals
I just did a quick calc to figure out how competitive the winning car/driver combinations were at the 2002 SoloII Nationals in Topeka.
In GENERAL, the better the winning car/driver combination, the lower the time should be. Keep in mind that the more modifications a class allows, the more unreliable the PAX data tends to be. It is worth noting that according to this list, STS is very competitive, DS somewhat less so, and STX is dead last.
So here is the list from best to worst...
am 78.44
cs 78.95
ss 79.40
bsp 79.40
f125 79.48
esp 79.53
ep 79.58
fsp 79.70
sts 79.86
csp 79.88
dm 79.95
sm 80.05
cp 80.09
asp 80.15
gs 80.18
dp 80.32
bp 80.40
fp 80.49
as 80.55
fs 80.60
dsp 80.63
hs 80.78
fm 80.79
bs 80.91
cm 80.95
ds 81.05
sm2 81.19
em 81.57
bm 82.20
ap 83.23
stx 83.43
Note: E-stock is missing because it has not yet been uploaded to the SCCA website.
In GENERAL, the better the winning car/driver combination, the lower the time should be. Keep in mind that the more modifications a class allows, the more unreliable the PAX data tends to be. It is worth noting that according to this list, STS is very competitive, DS somewhat less so, and STX is dead last.
So here is the list from best to worst...
am 78.44
cs 78.95
ss 79.40
bsp 79.40
f125 79.48
esp 79.53
ep 79.58
fsp 79.70
sts 79.86
csp 79.88
dm 79.95
sm 80.05
cp 80.09
asp 80.15
gs 80.18
dp 80.32
bp 80.40
fp 80.49
as 80.55
fs 80.60
dsp 80.63
hs 80.78
fm 80.79
bs 80.91
cm 80.95
ds 81.05
sm2 81.19
em 81.57
bm 82.20
ap 83.23
stx 83.43
Note: E-stock is missing because it has not yet been uploaded to the SCCA website.
| Kostamojen | 09-14-2002 02:16 AM |
Hmm... Looks like I should shoot for SM2 instead of SM, LOL!
| Eric SS | 09-14-2002 04:03 AM |
I would like to see their basis for moving the 2.5RS out of STS. It meets all the requirements. I like driving STS personally. :)
Eric
Eric
| dwx | 09-14-2002 11:16 AM |
While those PAX calculations are nice, I think the STS results are skewed because the top 2 guys just trounced everyone else. They were almost 2 seconds ahead of the 3rd place guy. If you use the third place result for your PAX calculation, it puts STS at 81.55, 5th from last. What they want to do was move AWD cars out of STS and put them in STX. I don't think they should move the 2.5RS, it's not a "class car" or anything of that sort. If you want that go look at the SS results. :)
| Opie | 09-15-2002 02:13 PM |
Well if anyone attended the SEB town hall meeting at the Nationals on Monday you would have heard that the Impreza 2.5RS fate [b]has[/b] already been sealed. It will move to STX for the 2004 season.
The SEB states that they are doing this not because the RS in an "overdog" in it's current class, but because there needs to be a line drawn between AWD and 2WD cars as well as between N/A and "boosted" cars. They (The SEB) feel that the RS could still be competitive in STX so off they go classing a car based on it drivetrain and/or engine type instead of actulally basing it on it's ability. Arent' all the other classings in Solo II based on a cars actual performance (i.e. Stock classes?). So why doesn't the SEB do that with the Street Touring classes?
I think I will retire from solo II competition very soon...otherwise I'll have to spend money to make the RS competitive in another class (STX or DSP) or I'll have to sell the RS and buy/build something to remain competitive in STS. If I do retire it will give me more time to find and build a car to rally...CNAR where do I sign up?
The SEB states that they are doing this not because the RS in an "overdog" in it's current class, but because there needs to be a line drawn between AWD and 2WD cars as well as between N/A and "boosted" cars. They (The SEB) feel that the RS could still be competitive in STX so off they go classing a car based on it drivetrain and/or engine type instead of actulally basing it on it's ability. Arent' all the other classings in Solo II based on a cars actual performance (i.e. Stock classes?). So why doesn't the SEB do that with the Street Touring classes?
I think I will retire from solo II competition very soon...otherwise I'll have to spend money to make the RS competitive in another class (STX or DSP) or I'll have to sell the RS and buy/build something to remain competitive in STS. If I do retire it will give me more time to find and build a car to rally...CNAR where do I sign up?
| KC | 09-15-2002 02:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jeddy [/i]
[B]Honestly, the SCCA can move the RS for all i care. Yes, i do drive one, and i love running in STS. However, locally, there are at most 5-8 drivers in STS, and zero to 2 or 3 in STX. In two of the places i regularly compete, there's only 3 or 4 of us in STS. Two of those are in my car (me and my brother). ;] I'd be ok with STX and STS all running together in fact. I think there's only one non-Subaru STS guy around these parts, in a Celica GTS. Oh wait, there's a new guy in Sierra Vista with an RSX.
If AWD gets kicked to STX, that may be motivation enough to do the things that i've avoided in order to stay in STS. Like ripping out the hood scoop plate for good, and putting in that Supercharger, or those Cobb street cams, hehe. Seriously though, if they stick us in STX, i'll just be in with a WRX with coilovers and all the STX allowed engine mods, and a ITR that trades off top STX time with that WRX. Nooo proooblem. It'll still be fun to drive around fast. I may even take to learning to drift properly. :devil:
Being in STX will kill any desire i might have to compete at a National level next year of course. I don't have the finances to max out my car for any class. Even Stock (nice shocks and race tires are expensive, hehe). [/B][/QUOTE]Just to make sure, you know that adding a supercharger or turbo isn't allowed in STX, right? :)
--kC
[B]Honestly, the SCCA can move the RS for all i care. Yes, i do drive one, and i love running in STS. However, locally, there are at most 5-8 drivers in STS, and zero to 2 or 3 in STX. In two of the places i regularly compete, there's only 3 or 4 of us in STS. Two of those are in my car (me and my brother). ;] I'd be ok with STX and STS all running together in fact. I think there's only one non-Subaru STS guy around these parts, in a Celica GTS. Oh wait, there's a new guy in Sierra Vista with an RSX.
If AWD gets kicked to STX, that may be motivation enough to do the things that i've avoided in order to stay in STS. Like ripping out the hood scoop plate for good, and putting in that Supercharger, or those Cobb street cams, hehe. Seriously though, if they stick us in STX, i'll just be in with a WRX with coilovers and all the STX allowed engine mods, and a ITR that trades off top STX time with that WRX. Nooo proooblem. It'll still be fun to drive around fast. I may even take to learning to drift properly. :devil:
Being in STX will kill any desire i might have to compete at a National level next year of course. I don't have the finances to max out my car for any class. Even Stock (nice shocks and race tires are expensive, hehe). [/B][/QUOTE]Just to make sure, you know that adding a supercharger or turbo isn't allowed in STX, right? :)
--kC
| jeddy | 09-15-2002 07:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Just to make sure, you know that adding a supercharger or turbo isn't allowed in STX, right? :)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Hehe. Yes, that i know. but if i'm getting bumped into a class that allows other forced induction cars, i'm thinking i could bypass that, go all out, and end up in SM or something. :devil:
[B]Just to make sure, you know that adding a supercharger or turbo isn't allowed in STX, right? :)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Hehe. Yes, that i know. but if i'm getting bumped into a class that allows other forced induction cars, i'm thinking i could bypass that, go all out, and end up in SM or something. :devil:
| Mean | 09-15-2002 11:35 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Opie [/i]
[B]Well if anyone attended the SEB town hall meeting at the Nationals on Monday you would have heard that the Impreza 2.5RS fate [b]has[/b] already been sealed. It will move to STX for the 2004 season.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Did you mean 2003?
G
[B]Well if anyone attended the SEB town hall meeting at the Nationals on Monday you would have heard that the Impreza 2.5RS fate [b]has[/b] already been sealed. It will move to STX for the 2004 season.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Did you mean 2003?
G
| KC | 09-16-2002 05:42 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mean [/i]
[B]
Did you mean 2003?
G [/B][/QUOTE]The STAC and the SEB say that since STX had 22 people, they are now a 'supplimental' class, not official yet. So when the numbers rise on a local level for STX next year and we get another 18+ people at Nationals next year, we'll be an official class for 2004.
Until STX becomes an 'official' class, the 2.5RS will remain in STS.
Again this was said at the Town Hall meeting and is subject to change at a moments notice by the STAC.
--kC
[B]
Did you mean 2003?
G [/B][/QUOTE]The STAC and the SEB say that since STX had 22 people, they are now a 'supplimental' class, not official yet. So when the numbers rise on a local level for STX next year and we get another 18+ people at Nationals next year, we'll be an official class for 2004.
Until STX becomes an 'official' class, the 2.5RS will remain in STS.
Again this was said at the Town Hall meeting and is subject to change at a moments notice by the STAC.
--kC
| CamaroFS34 | 09-16-2002 02:34 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Opie [/i]
[B]Well if anyone attended the SEB town hall meeting at the Nationals on Monday you would have heard that the Impreza 2.5RS fate [b]has[/b] already been sealed. It will move to STX for the 2004 season.[/b][/quote]That's odd. I was at the town hall meeting, and maybe it was brought up after I left, but I didn't hear anyone else talking about this. More importantly, I talked to GH Sharp (SEB member) Wednesday night at the awards banquet, and he told me that letters were still being accepting regarding the move.
Karen
[B]Well if anyone attended the SEB town hall meeting at the Nationals on Monday you would have heard that the Impreza 2.5RS fate [b]has[/b] already been sealed. It will move to STX for the 2004 season.[/b][/quote]That's odd. I was at the town hall meeting, and maybe it was brought up after I left, but I didn't hear anyone else talking about this. More importantly, I talked to GH Sharp (SEB member) Wednesday night at the awards banquet, and he told me that letters were still being accepting regarding the move.
Karen
| KC | 09-16-2002 02:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CamaroFS34 [/i]
[B]That's odd. I was at the town hall meeting, and maybe it was brought up after I left, but I didn't hear anyone else talking about this. More importantly, I talked to GH Sharp (SEB member) Wednesday night at the awards banquet, and he told me that letters were still being accepting regarding the move.
Karen [/B][/QUOTE]Was said after you left. :)
--kC
[B]That's odd. I was at the town hall meeting, and maybe it was brought up after I left, but I didn't hear anyone else talking about this. More importantly, I talked to GH Sharp (SEB member) Wednesday night at the awards banquet, and he told me that letters were still being accepting regarding the move.
Karen [/B][/QUOTE]Was said after you left. :)
--kC
| Warp3 | 09-16-2002 02:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Until STX becomes an 'official' class, the 2.5RS will remain in STS.[/B][/QUOTE]
So we can get our asses kicked by Civics for at least 1 more year, before getting handed over to the ITRs and WRXes for further, harder kicking? :lol: j/k
But seriously...hmm...I had pretty much given up on the chance of running STS next season...this may change things a bit, though.
Stuff like this makes me want to just jump to DSP and be done with this "rule changes every 30 seconds" crap that the Street Touring classes are dealing with! :mad: I know they are new classes and thus will be in flux but moving entire contingents of cars out to another class that aren't overdogs is ridiculous. I can hear the conversation now: "The 2.5RSes aren't dominating STS anymore now that the other cars have been prepped...let's take them, the other slower AWD cars, the uncompetive LPT (low-pressure turbo) cars and move them to a FASTER class! Then let's penalize them for having AWD, by making them stay with their stock diffs (regardless of how good or bad they are) while 1WD drive cars can add whatever diff they can get (Torsen, Clutch-type, Viscous...whatever you can get)!" :rolleyes:
(From what they are saying on the StreetTouring list though, the STX diff rule may be changing. In fact, the way some are interpreting the rule the 2WD cars with LSDs can't change their diff (note the actual rule says "add" not "change" an LSD). The example used on the list was that an Integra Type R can only use the stock LSD, but a GS-R can use whatever diff is available for the Integra. :rolleyes: Maybe I'll just go to DSP and put Quaiffe ATBs all-around... :lol: )
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
STS 729 (for now)
[B]Until STX becomes an 'official' class, the 2.5RS will remain in STS.[/B][/QUOTE]
So we can get our asses kicked by Civics for at least 1 more year, before getting handed over to the ITRs and WRXes for further, harder kicking? :lol: j/k
But seriously...hmm...I had pretty much given up on the chance of running STS next season...this may change things a bit, though.
Stuff like this makes me want to just jump to DSP and be done with this "rule changes every 30 seconds" crap that the Street Touring classes are dealing with! :mad: I know they are new classes and thus will be in flux but moving entire contingents of cars out to another class that aren't overdogs is ridiculous. I can hear the conversation now: "The 2.5RSes aren't dominating STS anymore now that the other cars have been prepped...let's take them, the other slower AWD cars, the uncompetive LPT (low-pressure turbo) cars and move them to a FASTER class! Then let's penalize them for having AWD, by making them stay with their stock diffs (regardless of how good or bad they are) while 1WD drive cars can add whatever diff they can get (Torsen, Clutch-type, Viscous...whatever you can get)!" :rolleyes:
(From what they are saying on the StreetTouring list though, the STX diff rule may be changing. In fact, the way some are interpreting the rule the 2WD cars with LSDs can't change their diff (note the actual rule says "add" not "change" an LSD). The example used on the list was that an Integra Type R can only use the stock LSD, but a GS-R can use whatever diff is available for the Integra. :rolleyes: Maybe I'll just go to DSP and put Quaiffe ATBs all-around... :lol: )
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
STS 729 (for now)
| KC | 09-16-2002 05:36 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Warp3 [/i]
[B](From what they are saying on the StreetTouring list though, the STX diff rule may be changing. In fact, the way some are interpreting the rule the 2WD cars with LSDs can't change their diff (note the actual rule says "add" not "change" an LSD). The example used on the list was that an Integra Type R can only use the stock LSD, but a GS-R can use whatever diff is available for the Integra. :rolleyes: Maybe I'll just go to DSP and put Quaiffe ATBs all-around... :lol: )
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
STS 729 (for now) [/B][/QUOTE]Shane, I was the one that posted the results of the Town Hall meeting.
Right now there is no intrepretation of the rules being used. The rule, as written now, is black and white:
[quote]Only factory limited slip differentials (LSD) are allowed on AWD vehicles, as defined in Section 12.4. For AWD vehicles that did not come with any type of limited slip differential (including center differential or transfer case), a single aftermarket LSD may be added. 2WD vehicles may use any LSD unit. [/quote] Right now the way it is written, ANY 2WD car, wehter they have a Limited Slip from the factory or not, can swap them out.
What threw the wrench in the works for this rule is the representitive of the Street Touring Advisory Commitee that said rather flippantly when I asked about the rule:
Me: "I think it rather unfair that only AWD vehicles cannot change the limited slip whereas any 2wd vehicle can change theirs"
STAC Representative: "Oh, 2wd cars with a limited slip from the factory CANNOT change them".
Me: "According to the exiting wording in the Fastrack, it clearly states that only AWD cannot change."
STAC Rep: "Oh that's not right. It doesn't say that."
When I requestioned him, he stated they're going to have to look at the rule because 'the rules intent' was to be that those that do NOT have them can add, but those existing cannot.
I was rather taken aback with this as the rules are clearly defined and it shows that they are going to change YET AGAIN when I suggested that the rule then needs to be clarified.
I'm not happy with the STAC as they CLEARLY want an all Honda Class.
Saying that the intent of STX was to move all AWD vehicles out of STS since the beginning is poppycock. Nowhere until about 2 -3 months ago did that startt appearing. If that was the 'intent' they would have done it when they created STX period.
I'm not happy with the STAC because if the REP from the STAC doesn't even know the simple STX rules... all 9 additional ones from STS, how the heck can we get anything done?
--kC
[B](From what they are saying on the StreetTouring list though, the STX diff rule may be changing. In fact, the way some are interpreting the rule the 2WD cars with LSDs can't change their diff (note the actual rule says "add" not "change" an LSD). The example used on the list was that an Integra Type R can only use the stock LSD, but a GS-R can use whatever diff is available for the Integra. :rolleyes: Maybe I'll just go to DSP and put Quaiffe ATBs all-around... :lol: )
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
STS 729 (for now) [/B][/QUOTE]Shane, I was the one that posted the results of the Town Hall meeting.
Right now there is no intrepretation of the rules being used. The rule, as written now, is black and white:
[quote]Only factory limited slip differentials (LSD) are allowed on AWD vehicles, as defined in Section 12.4. For AWD vehicles that did not come with any type of limited slip differential (including center differential or transfer case), a single aftermarket LSD may be added. 2WD vehicles may use any LSD unit. [/quote] Right now the way it is written, ANY 2WD car, wehter they have a Limited Slip from the factory or not, can swap them out.
What threw the wrench in the works for this rule is the representitive of the Street Touring Advisory Commitee that said rather flippantly when I asked about the rule:
Me: "I think it rather unfair that only AWD vehicles cannot change the limited slip whereas any 2wd vehicle can change theirs"
STAC Representative: "Oh, 2wd cars with a limited slip from the factory CANNOT change them".
Me: "According to the exiting wording in the Fastrack, it clearly states that only AWD cannot change."
STAC Rep: "Oh that's not right. It doesn't say that."
When I requestioned him, he stated they're going to have to look at the rule because 'the rules intent' was to be that those that do NOT have them can add, but those existing cannot.
I was rather taken aback with this as the rules are clearly defined and it shows that they are going to change YET AGAIN when I suggested that the rule then needs to be clarified.
I'm not happy with the STAC as they CLEARLY want an all Honda Class.
Saying that the intent of STX was to move all AWD vehicles out of STS since the beginning is poppycock. Nowhere until about 2 -3 months ago did that startt appearing. If that was the 'intent' they would have done it when they created STX period.
I'm not happy with the STAC because if the REP from the STAC doesn't even know the simple STX rules... all 9 additional ones from STS, how the heck can we get anything done?
--kC
| CamaroFS34 | 09-16-2002 06:56 PM |
Thanks for the clarification, KC. However, what GH said to me was said on Wednesday evening, during the banquet, so that says to me that there is still hope.
Additionally, if STX gets jacked on the "becoming a Nationals class" by 2004 (much like F125 has been jacked year after year, since they were first made supplemental in '97), what happens to the RS then?
I understand some people have written letters to the SEB on this subject, but if you haven't, please write. [i]It's still not too late[/i], according to GH Sharp, who [i]is[/i] an SEB member. The STAC only makes [i]recommendations[/i] and the SEB is the final rules makers, so no matter what an STAC person says, it isn't "law" until the SEB votes. And when you write, make sure you are't just writing a kneejerk response; use facts. The Subaru 2.5RS is competitive where it now stands, as evidenced by the Nationals results from 2000-2002, and as seen even in various ProSolo competition (though ProSolos should have no bearing on overall Solo II classification). To move the RS to STX is akin to suddenly allowing subframe connectors in ESP; a bunch of people are going to have to invest more money in a car that [i]was[/i] competitive and now needs to be prepped further in order to stay there. STX was originally designed as an intermediate level between STS and SM -- don't let the SEB/STAC forget that! As such, it allowed the turboed WRX, the 5.0/4.6L Mustangs, the 305ci F-bodies, and the LSD-equipped ITR to run an street touring class, something they weren't allowed to do with STS. Now, [i]someone[/i] is trying to pawn off this "STX was designed for AWD cars" off on the Subaru people, and I don't think anyone should sit back and accept that.
People in the rules-making seats on the STAC and the SEB are trying to play games, and it's getting old. The biggest mistake they've made of late is letting the Z06 take over SS -- and because they let that happen, they had to restructure all of the Stock classes to try to minimize the damage. Surprise, surprise when they found the C4 Corvette owners didn't come back in droves, after years of getting crushed by RX7TTs and then the Z06, many of them simply gave up on SCCA autocross, or moved on to other classes (either BSP with their Corvette, or another class altogether). They are going to do the exact same thing here with the Street Touring classes, and instead of leaving things alone, they are going to alienate who knows how many RS owners/drivers by dicking with a class that already has excellent turnout and a good deal of variety just to satisfy the egos of a couple of STAC members who can't deal with the fact that their particular cars and/or car setups aren't competitive.
The problem is that the ST classes are too broad in scope, and if they [i]really[/i] need to make an "AWD" class, then they need to bring back ST1, ST2 and ST3 (the original STS concept has three classes for different types of cars in STS trim; STS V8s, for instance were in ST3) instead of just STS, then have STX be a step upfrom there, with LSDs and brakes, etc. and then SM/SM2 the "run what ya bring on race tires" as we see now.
Sorry for the length, but I get sick and tired of the constant messing with things that aren't broke.
Karen
Additionally, if STX gets jacked on the "becoming a Nationals class" by 2004 (much like F125 has been jacked year after year, since they were first made supplemental in '97), what happens to the RS then?
I understand some people have written letters to the SEB on this subject, but if you haven't, please write. [i]It's still not too late[/i], according to GH Sharp, who [i]is[/i] an SEB member. The STAC only makes [i]recommendations[/i] and the SEB is the final rules makers, so no matter what an STAC person says, it isn't "law" until the SEB votes. And when you write, make sure you are't just writing a kneejerk response; use facts. The Subaru 2.5RS is competitive where it now stands, as evidenced by the Nationals results from 2000-2002, and as seen even in various ProSolo competition (though ProSolos should have no bearing on overall Solo II classification). To move the RS to STX is akin to suddenly allowing subframe connectors in ESP; a bunch of people are going to have to invest more money in a car that [i]was[/i] competitive and now needs to be prepped further in order to stay there. STX was originally designed as an intermediate level between STS and SM -- don't let the SEB/STAC forget that! As such, it allowed the turboed WRX, the 5.0/4.6L Mustangs, the 305ci F-bodies, and the LSD-equipped ITR to run an street touring class, something they weren't allowed to do with STS. Now, [i]someone[/i] is trying to pawn off this "STX was designed for AWD cars" off on the Subaru people, and I don't think anyone should sit back and accept that.
People in the rules-making seats on the STAC and the SEB are trying to play games, and it's getting old. The biggest mistake they've made of late is letting the Z06 take over SS -- and because they let that happen, they had to restructure all of the Stock classes to try to minimize the damage. Surprise, surprise when they found the C4 Corvette owners didn't come back in droves, after years of getting crushed by RX7TTs and then the Z06, many of them simply gave up on SCCA autocross, or moved on to other classes (either BSP with their Corvette, or another class altogether). They are going to do the exact same thing here with the Street Touring classes, and instead of leaving things alone, they are going to alienate who knows how many RS owners/drivers by dicking with a class that already has excellent turnout and a good deal of variety just to satisfy the egos of a couple of STAC members who can't deal with the fact that their particular cars and/or car setups aren't competitive.
The problem is that the ST classes are too broad in scope, and if they [i]really[/i] need to make an "AWD" class, then they need to bring back ST1, ST2 and ST3 (the original STS concept has three classes for different types of cars in STS trim; STS V8s, for instance were in ST3) instead of just STS, then have STX be a step upfrom there, with LSDs and brakes, etc. and then SM/SM2 the "run what ya bring on race tires" as we see now.
Sorry for the length, but I get sick and tired of the constant messing with things that aren't broke.
Karen
| Opie | 09-16-2002 08:54 PM |
I nominate Karen to be the 2.5RS official spokeswoman! :D
You hit the nail right on the head, I sent my original letter about 3 months ago, I will send another one. ST does need more than 2 classes, I had never heard about the ST1 - ST3 concept...I think it's great!
Wait till the poor Suzuki Aerio owners hear about this rule, they are availible with 141HP and AWD this year...I'm sure they would be competitive in STX too! ;)
You hit the nail right on the head, I sent my original letter about 3 months ago, I will send another one. ST does need more than 2 classes, I had never heard about the ST1 - ST3 concept...I think it's great!
Wait till the poor Suzuki Aerio owners hear about this rule, they are availible with 141HP and AWD this year...I'm sure they would be competitive in STX too! ;)
| NC2.5RS | 09-16-2002 10:19 PM |
I hope they dont take the RS out of STS. Because thats where I just moved up to.
| zzyzx | 09-17-2002 02:22 PM |
Karen - Absolutely right on. This whole STAC business is a joke. It's going to get worse, too, unless we do something.
Is it possible to fire the STAC? ;)
I think it's a shame that the SCCA can have one small group of people such as the STAC impact, financially and otherwise, the health of the SCCA. It seems the old addage "you can't argue with success" doesn't apply to the STAC.
The STAC is so out of touch with the STS crowd it's just pitiful...
- Steve
Is it possible to fire the STAC? ;)
I think it's a shame that the SCCA can have one small group of people such as the STAC impact, financially and otherwise, the health of the SCCA. It seems the old addage "you can't argue with success" doesn't apply to the STAC.
The STAC is so out of touch with the STS crowd it's just pitiful...
- Steve
| powerlabs | 12-12-2004 08:15 PM |
I tried to Google "Ralph Prieb 2.5RS" in an attempt to find out what made his car so fast but it just referred me back to this thread. Does anyone know where I can find what mods he ran???
| CamaroFS34 | 12-12-2004 08:32 PM |
Ralph was driving Eric Kriemelmeyer's Impreza RS, which was an STS car. I would PM or email Eric to find out exactly what he had at that time. Frankly, I drove the car as it was in 2002, and if you're looking for go-fast mods for and RS, I would talk to Billy Brooks or Corey Ridgick -- they have what I believe are two of the best setup Imprezas for STS at this time. Unfortunately, if you're looking for ST[b]X[/b] mods for an RS, you're going to have to keep looking... I don't think anyone's actually set up one for STX, not with the WRX to aim for.
Karen
Karen
| powerlabs | 12-12-2004 08:35 PM |
I'm running STX :) My Random Tech High Flow Cat.Converter puts me there, and I wouldn't give it up just to be able to drive around a bunch of cones a couple times a year and have a slightly lower time penalty :lol:
I am very interested in his set up though. Maybe Eric is watching this and he'll chime in?
I am very interested in his set up though. Maybe Eric is watching this and he'll chime in?
| ChrisDP | 12-12-2004 09:12 PM |
[url]http://www.kartboy.com/eric.html[/url]
oooooold page, not sure what he changed after that... I'm not sure how much beyond Corey/Billy's cars you could do to make the car faster for STX save for the cat, I don't think you can cram 245s under the fenders.
oooooold page, not sure what he changed after that... I'm not sure how much beyond Corey/Billy's cars you could do to make the car faster for STX save for the cat, I don't think you can cram 245s under the fenders.
| Draken | 12-12-2004 09:54 PM |
We ran STX in an RS on the West Coast at a couple Pros in 2003. Several mods put us into STX, but imo, we were still under prepped, especially by current standards.
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
| Draken | 12-12-2004 09:54 PM |
same as above...me = moron
| powerlabs | 12-12-2004 10:09 PM |
What mods besides your cat put you in STX?
Thanks a lot for the link, BTW.
Thanks a lot for the link, BTW.
| mofugga | 12-12-2004 10:32 PM |
here's another helpful link [URL=http://www.redshiftmotorsports.com/SubaruSetup.htm]corey ridgick's set up[/URL]
| powerlabs | 12-12-2004 10:35 PM |
Thank you!
Looks like a lot of people go for Tein Coilovers. Subigal said that she thought coilovers were overkill on a street car. I personally think they are a lot of money. Is the advantage really worth it or would a KDW AGX / Eibach combo work just as well?
Looks like a lot of people go for Tein Coilovers. Subigal said that she thought coilovers were overkill on a street car. I personally think they are a lot of money. Is the advantage really worth it or would a KDW AGX / Eibach combo work just as well?
| Storm | 12-12-2004 10:51 PM |
Ask yourself if you are planning to go to topeka and attempt to be a major player in the class? Or are you just looking to slap the same parts on your car and hope for the best? Just because someone says a certain suspension setup is overkill for the street doesn't make it true. And in case you haven't noticed, the top cars in nearly EVERY class in Topeka are not street cars.....especially tuner classes such as STs/x.....
Jay Storm
Jay Storm
| TheWRX | 12-13-2004 12:33 AM |
[QUOTE=CamaroFS34]Unfortunately, if you're looking for ST[b]X[/b] mods for an RS, you're going to have to keep looking... I don't think anyone's actually set up one for STX[/QUOTE]
Pat (Top_Dog) went pretty far.
And d***, is this an old thread! I started reading it without noticing, and nothing made sense. :alien:
Pat (Top_Dog) went pretty far.
And d***, is this an old thread! I started reading it without noticing, and nothing made sense. :alien:
| CamaroFS34 | 12-13-2004 07:57 AM |
[QUOTE=TheWRX]Pat (Top_Dog) went pretty far.
And d***, is this an old thread! I started reading it without noticing, and nothing made sense. :alien:[/QUOTE]
I thought Pat's was just an STS car with a diff? I guess he'll chime in....
And yeah, I was shocked how old this thread was! :)
Karen
And d***, is this an old thread! I started reading it without noticing, and nothing made sense. :alien:[/QUOTE]
I thought Pat's was just an STS car with a diff? I guess he'll chime in....
And yeah, I was shocked how old this thread was! :)
Karen
| jcroy66 | 12-13-2004 08:01 AM |
IIRC Subiegal rallies, but does not autocross. I wouldn't expect an autocrosser to tell me the best setup for ProRally, nor would I expect a rallier to be able to tell me the best setup for autocross.
What do you want to do with the car? As Storm asks, are you planning on going to Topeka? Are you planning on making a major run at a regional level? Or are you just planning on attending an autocross every once in a blue moon and have a little fun?
Keep in mind that some of the fastest parts for autocross will not necessarily be the parts you'd choose for exclusive daily driving (i.e. no autocross). So it's necessary to know what your priorities are with the car to give you any semblance of advice.
What do you want to do with the car? As Storm asks, are you planning on going to Topeka? Are you planning on making a major run at a regional level? Or are you just planning on attending an autocross every once in a blue moon and have a little fun?
Keep in mind that some of the fastest parts for autocross will not necessarily be the parts you'd choose for exclusive daily driving (i.e. no autocross). So it's necessary to know what your priorities are with the car to give you any semblance of advice.
| 10th Warrior | 12-13-2004 11:18 AM |
[QUOTE=CamaroFS34]I thought Pat's was just an STS car with a diff? I guess he'll chime in....
And yeah, I was shocked how old this thread was! :)
Karen[/QUOTE]
damn, n00b, learn the rules, AWD cars can't replace diffs in STX :p
Pat's car was basically the same as for STS but he'd done a bunch of UD/BD and weight reduction that was allowed in STX at the time, but not STS.
And yeah, I was shocked how old this thread was! :)
Karen[/QUOTE]
damn, n00b, learn the rules, AWD cars can't replace diffs in STX :p
Pat's car was basically the same as for STS but he'd done a bunch of UD/BD and weight reduction that was allowed in STX at the time, but not STS.
| WJM | 05-05-2005 10:42 PM |
And the RS is still in STS.... :banana:
| CamaroFS34 | 05-06-2005 09:35 AM |
[QUOTE=WJM]And the RS is still in STS.... :banana:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, 'cause while Billy and Corey keep the cars in the trophies at the ProSolos, they both bail on them for the National Championships... ;)
At least the SEB and the STAC haven't pushed the issue, though it seems to have come up every year around the time that classing decisions for the next year's rulebook need to be discussed and proposed (which is... well, conveniently, right about [i]now[/i]!).
Karen
Yeah, 'cause while Billy and Corey keep the cars in the trophies at the ProSolos, they both bail on them for the National Championships... ;)
At least the SEB and the STAC haven't pushed the issue, though it seems to have come up every year around the time that classing decisions for the next year's rulebook need to be discussed and proposed (which is... well, conveniently, right about [i]now[/i]!).
Karen
| Imprezivblue | 05-06-2005 01:22 PM |
LOL, I better quit now if i get shoved in STX. What a nightmare.
| Fred | 05-06-2005 03:30 PM |
[QUOTE]LOL, I better quit now if i get shoved in STX. What a nightmare[/QUOTE]
Why, you'd rather lose to Civics in STS than WRXes in STX? :lol:
Why, you'd rather lose to Civics in STS than WRXes in STX? :lol:
| DrBiggly | 05-06-2005 03:40 PM |
Hah. The Civics are faster in STX too. :(
| trhoppe | 05-06-2005 04:22 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Hah. The Civics are faster in STX too. :([/QUOTE]
Yes
-Tom
who is thinking about jumping into a Civic with big SUBARU stickers on it ;)
Yes
-Tom
who is thinking about jumping into a Civic with big SUBARU stickers on it ;)
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét