| PURE EPI | 05-22-2003 11:23 AM |
STPR In Danger?
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I have talked to a reliable person in regards to the entry list for STPR. I have also viewed it myself and noticed a HUGE deficit in the number of entries from this year to last. I have also been told that the Club Rally program is suspended pending an investigation into the deaths at Ski Sawmill. The SCCA also, reportedly, was very strict as to the compliance in the arena of entries/apps for the STPR. As such the reportedly stated that due to the large number of entrants, they would "kick back" the apps that were not filled in correctly, and would tell the corresponding teams that they could not run. But wait, there's more. Also reportedly they were charging approx $800 for the entry fee and if you did not cross your t's and dot your I's then they would keep $400 of that fee for "administration fees" . As a result, a large number of teams and drivers are not going and/or boycotting the event.
Anyone with better or clearifying info please post it.
Christian
Anyone with better or clearifying info please post it.
Christian
| Subie Gal | 05-22-2003 11:38 AM |
well the entry fee -
according to the forms on their site is : $725
this is typical pro rally costs...
they do only have 27 or so cars on the entry list...
but i'm not sure how big this rally has been in the past?
personally, i have no interest in attending it.
too far to travel and i dont have the tow funds to get there.
and yes it is true about SCCA suspending club rallies...
and it is true that a lot of SCCA rally members are well good and pissed off about it.... but i havent heard any rumors about boycotting the event etc.
stpr home page: [url]http://www.stpr.org/index.html[/url]
rally gossip central: [url]www.specialstage.com[/url]
have fun.
jamie [img]http://www.subiegal.com/rallysmiley.gif[/img] [url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[img]http://www.subiegal.com/SGRacing/Team%20Schedule/subiegalwave.gif[/img]
according to the forms on their site is : $725
this is typical pro rally costs...
they do only have 27 or so cars on the entry list...
but i'm not sure how big this rally has been in the past?
personally, i have no interest in attending it.
too far to travel and i dont have the tow funds to get there.
and yes it is true about SCCA suspending club rallies...
and it is true that a lot of SCCA rally members are well good and pissed off about it.... but i havent heard any rumors about boycotting the event etc.
stpr home page: [url]http://www.stpr.org/index.html[/url]
rally gossip central: [url]www.specialstage.com[/url]
have fun.
jamie [img]http://www.subiegal.com/rallysmiley.gif[/img] [url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[img]http://www.subiegal.com/SGRacing/Team%20Schedule/subiegalwave.gif[/img]
| Jon Bogert | 05-22-2003 11:43 AM |
There are a couple of threads on SpecialStage that summarize the issues very well.
From a spectator's standpoint, I would go there with the understanding that you may be abused, herded, excluded, etc. The threshold for shutting down stages due to excessive spectators will be VERY low. :(
Hopefully, Subaru will have a PR tent there, so you can go pick up a cap and a signed poster and thank them for helping the sport grow.
From a spectator's standpoint, I would go there with the understanding that you may be abused, herded, excluded, etc. The threshold for shutting down stages due to excessive spectators will be VERY low. :(
Hopefully, Subaru will have a PR tent there, so you can go pick up a cap and a signed poster and thank them for helping the sport grow.
| jesse370 | 05-22-2003 12:48 PM |
Almost every year I've been there they have had close to 80 cars.
| rallynutdon | 05-22-2003 01:44 PM |
Deadline for early entry fee (was 5/24) has been extended to 5/31. Until that date passes, who knows. The Mitsi group has yet to register. Club suspended should not effect STPR. The entry was always maxed out, last year 90 cars w/o club entries. I don't think SCCA would be strict (ahead of time) about entry forms but if I was a registrar I would be. Why can't people pay attention and fill in the information correctly the first time. I ALWAYS have. I've never had a entry rejected in 4 years. If you enter and pay you money and pull out, there is a fee and that's only correct. I've heard about large amounts not being returned and depending on when you withdraw that's not fair. If you withdraw 12 hours before the event that should be different from withdrawing 5 days before the event. Apparently there are some people boycotting the event (I personally know of some) but I think they're only hurting themselves and the organizers (missing an opportunity for seat time) and not really making an impression on SCCA. The entry fee this year is the same as it was last year and about the same as many other pro events.
| Robin2 | 05-22-2003 03:52 PM |
I'll be going down again (4th year in a row) to see some stages but mainly to go camping and see some of my Upstate NY friends... and then heading west for the 5th event of the Canadian series, Pacific Forest rally (crewing for ACP, Evo4).
STPR has a nice venue with the Wellsboro town square (for park expose).... and the various stages. We'll see how it goes... I won't be going to the water crossing though...
Robin
STPR has a nice venue with the Wellsboro town square (for park expose).... and the various stages. We'll see how it goes... I won't be going to the water crossing though...
Robin
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-22-2003 05:46 PM |
The entry list is only as good as the people who take the entries and update the site. It's been known for rally sites to have an update done on the 6th of the month with 12 entries, then the next update on the 18th with 20 entries. We know those were spread out between those 12 days, but all put on at once. If the entry list was done in real time, then I'd be worried. I'm not though. I don't expect a waiting list.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
| Subie Gal | 05-22-2003 06:41 PM |
*shrug*
site said it was updated 5/20? dunno....
regardless... those in attendance have fun!!
and go subaruuuu!!!
[img]http://shin.bit.ac/cg/subaru/k-cg/wrc02.gif[/img]
Jam~
site said it was updated 5/20? dunno....
regardless... those in attendance have fun!!
and go subaruuuu!!!
[img]http://shin.bit.ac/cg/subaru/k-cg/wrc02.gif[/img]
Jam~
| Jon Bogert | 05-22-2003 11:24 PM |
[QUOTE]those in attendance have fun!![/QUOTE]
Oh well, any chance of that happening just evaporated.
The doo-doo has officially hit the intercooler:
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/1409.html[/url]
Oh well, any chance of that happening just evaporated.
The doo-doo has officially hit the intercooler:
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/1409.html[/url]
| thechickencow | 05-23-2003 12:11 AM |
Well, to me its just more justification to work any rally I'm at. I'd much rather marshall a corner or do a finish control and see at least some of the action than be stuck in a paddock with a bunch of smelly dudes.
I had a good time at LSPR working last year, saw a lot, and actually had a clue what was going on at the rally.
I had a good time at LSPR working last year, saw a lot, and actually had a clue what was going on at the rally.
| jprowland | 05-23-2003 08:49 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by thechickencow [/i]
[B]Well, to me its just more justification to work any rally I'm at. I'd much rather marshall a corner or do a finish control and see at least some of the action than be stuck in a paddock with a bunch of smelly dudes.[/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. I'm trying to find a co-driving ride for STPR, but if it doesn't happen, I'm going to be working radio.
Having spectated and worked Maine, once each, I can say that I think it's more exciting working than spectating, especially radio. Not only do you get to see the cars (unless you're on sweep, in which case you get to ride the roads at a brisk pace, even better), you feel like you're a part of the event.
Still, co-driving is my fave of all :)
[B]Well, to me its just more justification to work any rally I'm at. I'd much rather marshall a corner or do a finish control and see at least some of the action than be stuck in a paddock with a bunch of smelly dudes.[/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. I'm trying to find a co-driving ride for STPR, but if it doesn't happen, I'm going to be working radio.
Having spectated and worked Maine, once each, I can say that I think it's more exciting working than spectating, especially radio. Not only do you get to see the cars (unless you're on sweep, in which case you get to ride the roads at a brisk pace, even better), you feel like you're a part of the event.
Still, co-driving is my fave of all :)
| jprowland | 05-23-2003 08:51 AM |
All workers should consider radio. It takes time (to study for a ham license) and money (~ $10-20 for a license + exam, $130 for radio, $30 for antenna) but I think it's worth it.
Every event could use more radios, as the incident at Sawmill shows, and it's more fun than just marshalling. You get to stay "in the loop" on what's going on.
Every event could use more radios, as the incident at Sawmill shows, and it's more fun than just marshalling. You get to stay "in the loop" on what's going on.
| PURE EPI | 05-29-2003 04:22 PM |
So like I mentioned before, is it worth traveling as much as 10 hours to get there?
| Jon Bogert | 05-29-2003 05:05 PM |
I've been wondering that myself. I'm not competing this year, but I was thinking of going up anyway.
It concerns me that they have no realistic spectator plan. Essentially they are saying that they will cancel a stage if [i]one, single, individual, lonely person[/i] is standing in a safe spot anywhere along the stage. Despite many "you've got to be kidding" sorts of inquiries, they remain firm on that point.
Now I'm a relative newbie, having only done seven STPRs as a worker and competitor. But there is no way in hell they are going to be able to corral all of those fans into dull little guarded pens. It's ridiculous to even try, and it cannot work. This isn't like Cherokee Trails, where they had complete control of the forest. There are hundreds of camps and cabins along the STPR roads. What're they going to do, tell the owners to hide behind their houses until the cars go by?
So, I see a situation where they'll either back down and run the stages with reasonably safe groups of spectators along them. Or they'll cancel the rally one stage at a time, cause rioting among the fans and get sued by the competitors for their entry fees. I sure hope it's the former, but the way they're talking it very well might be the latter. :(
It concerns me that they have no realistic spectator plan. Essentially they are saying that they will cancel a stage if [i]one, single, individual, lonely person[/i] is standing in a safe spot anywhere along the stage. Despite many "you've got to be kidding" sorts of inquiries, they remain firm on that point.
Now I'm a relative newbie, having only done seven STPRs as a worker and competitor. But there is no way in hell they are going to be able to corral all of those fans into dull little guarded pens. It's ridiculous to even try, and it cannot work. This isn't like Cherokee Trails, where they had complete control of the forest. There are hundreds of camps and cabins along the STPR roads. What're they going to do, tell the owners to hide behind their houses until the cars go by?
So, I see a situation where they'll either back down and run the stages with reasonably safe groups of spectators along them. Or they'll cancel the rally one stage at a time, cause rioting among the fans and get sued by the competitors for their entry fees. I sure hope it's the former, but the way they're talking it very well might be the latter. :(
| rallynutdon | 05-30-2003 08:05 AM |
Jon, I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. I'm not a pessimist, but a realist. I've been there for (oh my gosh) 23 years (but I'm young at heart ;) ). Many people are optomistic that the spectators are going to cooperate. But as you stated, all it takes is 1 person. If I was towing 10-12 hours I would have withdrawn. As it is, Ill be estatic if we get to run 3 or 4 stages. But even if we run a couple of stages there will still be a heavy price to pay (by many people and for the sake of the sport) if that happens. You should go up. You should probably offer to work (but I don't think legions of workers will really make much of a difference unless you're talking about thousands of well trained authoratitive workers). Will SCCA back down? In a letter to PRD, PRB, BOD this week, I told them that I expect to not see any SCCA official in Wellsboro during the day Staurday. They should all be out on the course helping to resolve the problems. MHO, YMMV.
| Narcisse91 | 05-30-2003 08:36 AM |
Re: STPR In Danger?
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PURE EPI [/i]
[B]I have talked to a reliable person in regards to the entry list for STPR. I have also viewed it myself and noticed a HUGE deficit in the number of entries from this year to last. I have also been told that the Club Rally program is suspended pending an investigation into the deaths at Ski Sawmill. The SCCA also, reportedly, was very strict as to the compliance in the arena of entries/apps for the STPR. As such the reportedly stated that due to the large number of entrants, they would "kick back" the apps that were not filled in correctly, and would tell the corresponding teams that they could not run. But wait, there's more. Also reportedly they were charging approx $800 for the entry fee and if you did not cross your t's and dot your I's then they would keep $400 of that fee for "administration fees" . As a result, a large number of teams and drivers are not going and/or boycotting the event.
Anyone with better or clearifying info please post it.
Christian [/B][/QUOTE]
The fee is approximately $800, I believe it's $725 until the end of May, then it goes up a bit, but I honestly don't remember. Entries are not being rejected and competitors are not being told they can't compete. The people working registration are doing so voluntarily, and having to organize 90 entries that are only half complete is a ridiculous amount of extra work. Any competitors who enter with only car information and no driver or co-driver are being told they need to submit all information. Anyone who can't provide a copy of a driver's license will not show up on the list. Nobody is being told they can't compete, so obviously, there is no $400 administration fee for rejected entries that the SCCA pockets for these incomplete entries.
The number of entries on the website are only the people with complete information. I think there were around 60-70 people total who had submitted some sort of entry.
As for spectator control, the SCCA has decided to put a very close eye on ProRally. ClubRally has been suspended, and they are considering cancelling ProRally. There will be a lot of higher ups at STPR keeping an eye on things, and they are making sure any stage can be stopped at any time if need be. Anyone who's been to STPR (or any ProRally) has seen all the idiots walking out onto the stage in between cars. These are the type of people who will get a stage cancelled. I don't know how each spectator control will be set up, but I do know they will be stricter than they have been. If this really bugs some of you (and I can understand if it does), look at it this way: Would you rather lose your perfect viewing spot and have to watch from behind a spectator control, or would you rather have ProRally suspended?
[B]I have talked to a reliable person in regards to the entry list for STPR. I have also viewed it myself and noticed a HUGE deficit in the number of entries from this year to last. I have also been told that the Club Rally program is suspended pending an investigation into the deaths at Ski Sawmill. The SCCA also, reportedly, was very strict as to the compliance in the arena of entries/apps for the STPR. As such the reportedly stated that due to the large number of entrants, they would "kick back" the apps that were not filled in correctly, and would tell the corresponding teams that they could not run. But wait, there's more. Also reportedly they were charging approx $800 for the entry fee and if you did not cross your t's and dot your I's then they would keep $400 of that fee for "administration fees" . As a result, a large number of teams and drivers are not going and/or boycotting the event.
Anyone with better or clearifying info please post it.
Christian [/B][/QUOTE]
The fee is approximately $800, I believe it's $725 until the end of May, then it goes up a bit, but I honestly don't remember. Entries are not being rejected and competitors are not being told they can't compete. The people working registration are doing so voluntarily, and having to organize 90 entries that are only half complete is a ridiculous amount of extra work. Any competitors who enter with only car information and no driver or co-driver are being told they need to submit all information. Anyone who can't provide a copy of a driver's license will not show up on the list. Nobody is being told they can't compete, so obviously, there is no $400 administration fee for rejected entries that the SCCA pockets for these incomplete entries.
The number of entries on the website are only the people with complete information. I think there were around 60-70 people total who had submitted some sort of entry.
As for spectator control, the SCCA has decided to put a very close eye on ProRally. ClubRally has been suspended, and they are considering cancelling ProRally. There will be a lot of higher ups at STPR keeping an eye on things, and they are making sure any stage can be stopped at any time if need be. Anyone who's been to STPR (or any ProRally) has seen all the idiots walking out onto the stage in between cars. These are the type of people who will get a stage cancelled. I don't know how each spectator control will be set up, but I do know they will be stricter than they have been. If this really bugs some of you (and I can understand if it does), look at it this way: Would you rather lose your perfect viewing spot and have to watch from behind a spectator control, or would you rather have ProRally suspended?
| Rovah | 05-30-2003 09:13 AM |
Those of us making the trip to STPR to race are doing so for the love of our sport.
The entry list looks quite healthy, and I'm sure it will be updated shortly.
As competitors, we're ready to do our part to ensure that the show goes on. I hope that spectators that attend feel the same.
Cheers! John
The entry list looks quite healthy, and I'm sure it will be updated shortly.
As competitors, we're ready to do our part to ensure that the show goes on. I hope that spectators that attend feel the same.
Cheers! John
| Jon Bogert | 05-30-2003 10:42 AM |
Well, John, I hope you're right, because if STPR tries this--and fails--it will kill SCCA rally faster than if they'd decided to wait for a more workable plan.
I may be in the position of being a "tour guide" for some rally newbies this year. In the past, I knew I could show them a good time with my knowledge of the good corners and clever ways in and out of the woods. But this year, I have to weigh the possibility that we won't be able to enjoy the core rally experience much at all.
The entire "the woods... the cars... and you" ethos of rally spectating is being compromised. The quiet and beauty of nature, a cold beer, a good cigar, a few good friends, punctuated by the approach each minute of a ripping exhaust, gravel spitting rally car that passes close enough to you that you lean back from the sheer force of it blasting through the air. There is certainly some risk involved, but I'm an adult and can make my own choices about whick risks I choose to take.
They're trying to change the very core of what it means to be a rally fan. Perhaps standing shoulder to shoulder with mom, dad, the baby and the dog in a fenced off spectator zone located a "safe" distance from the rally will appeal to some people. I can't say it will ever appeal to me.
The people trying to feed you this pile of crap will use examples of idiots who walk down live stage roads to make their point. There is a big gap between responsible, experienced rally fans and those folks, so don't fall for it when they point to the truly dangerous yahoos in their effort to ruin spectating for the rest of us. Deal with the actual problem, don't amputate your leg beacuse your toe is infected.
So when it comes to "the love of our sport" that's a term I take very seriously. I'll continue to love [i]our[/i] sport even if the SCCA is no longer running it. But to happily acquiesce as the SCCA and their insurers try to turn rally into some parody of itself, who exactly is that helping in the long run?
I may be in the position of being a "tour guide" for some rally newbies this year. In the past, I knew I could show them a good time with my knowledge of the good corners and clever ways in and out of the woods. But this year, I have to weigh the possibility that we won't be able to enjoy the core rally experience much at all.
The entire "the woods... the cars... and you" ethos of rally spectating is being compromised. The quiet and beauty of nature, a cold beer, a good cigar, a few good friends, punctuated by the approach each minute of a ripping exhaust, gravel spitting rally car that passes close enough to you that you lean back from the sheer force of it blasting through the air. There is certainly some risk involved, but I'm an adult and can make my own choices about whick risks I choose to take.
They're trying to change the very core of what it means to be a rally fan. Perhaps standing shoulder to shoulder with mom, dad, the baby and the dog in a fenced off spectator zone located a "safe" distance from the rally will appeal to some people. I can't say it will ever appeal to me.
The people trying to feed you this pile of crap will use examples of idiots who walk down live stage roads to make their point. There is a big gap between responsible, experienced rally fans and those folks, so don't fall for it when they point to the truly dangerous yahoos in their effort to ruin spectating for the rest of us. Deal with the actual problem, don't amputate your leg beacuse your toe is infected.
So when it comes to "the love of our sport" that's a term I take very seriously. I'll continue to love [i]our[/i] sport even if the SCCA is no longer running it. But to happily acquiesce as the SCCA and their insurers try to turn rally into some parody of itself, who exactly is that helping in the long run?
| Narcisse91 | 05-30-2003 10:55 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]The people trying to feed you this pile of crap will use examples of idiots who walk down live stage roads to make their point. There is a big gap between responsible, experienced rally fans and those folks, so don't fall for it when they point to the truly dangerous yahoos in their effort to ruin spectating for the rest of us. Deal with the actual problem, don't amputate your leg beacuse your toe is infected.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'll assume that was directed straight at me, since those are almost my exact words. I'm not feeding you a pile of crap, you're just not seeing the whole picture. You may be the most responsible spectator, and you may find great places to watch, have a beer, and not cause any problems, but that only accounts for half of the people who show up. The other half races through the towns, speeds on all the dirt roads, and puts themselves at very unnecessary risk while watching. The SCCA isn't trying to ruin spectating for the rest of you, they're just trying to control the element that is doing it. I'm in no way associated with the SCCA (aside from competing and working some local events) and I certainly don't have any part in their decision making, and I really don't agree with it, but I have enough common sense to see where they're coming from. The difference is I'm going to be working the rally, instead of just bitching on forums about what may change. Is your name on the worker list? Are you going to be a spectator control, keeping an eye on the people that are causing the SCCA to restrict where you can and can't go? If not, then you're not really helping the sport you claim to love, are you? As a matter of fact, you're doing the exact opposite by dragging the organizers through the mud. Some fan...
[B]The people trying to feed you this pile of crap will use examples of idiots who walk down live stage roads to make their point. There is a big gap between responsible, experienced rally fans and those folks, so don't fall for it when they point to the truly dangerous yahoos in their effort to ruin spectating for the rest of us. Deal with the actual problem, don't amputate your leg beacuse your toe is infected.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'll assume that was directed straight at me, since those are almost my exact words. I'm not feeding you a pile of crap, you're just not seeing the whole picture. You may be the most responsible spectator, and you may find great places to watch, have a beer, and not cause any problems, but that only accounts for half of the people who show up. The other half races through the towns, speeds on all the dirt roads, and puts themselves at very unnecessary risk while watching. The SCCA isn't trying to ruin spectating for the rest of you, they're just trying to control the element that is doing it. I'm in no way associated with the SCCA (aside from competing and working some local events) and I certainly don't have any part in their decision making, and I really don't agree with it, but I have enough common sense to see where they're coming from. The difference is I'm going to be working the rally, instead of just bitching on forums about what may change. Is your name on the worker list? Are you going to be a spectator control, keeping an eye on the people that are causing the SCCA to restrict where you can and can't go? If not, then you're not really helping the sport you claim to love, are you? As a matter of fact, you're doing the exact opposite by dragging the organizers through the mud. Some fan...
| Jon Bogert | 05-30-2003 11:33 AM |
Not you specifically--that's just one of the arguements that I've seen put forward to justify the alleged necessity of these radical changes.
Frankly, I would [i]love[/i] to work an old fashioned spectator control. I've been a marshal a bunch of times, and it has--in the past--been a great way to see the rally. I find my experience is better utilized running a stage. If you'll refer to paragraph two, above, you'll see where I'm coming from in this case, however.
What is so disturbing is how little information the STPR organizers have released about their spectator plan. Apparently, their spectator safety steward resigned two weeks ago. Plus, they've gotten some incredibly harsh directives from Topeka which they have the responsibility of following without the authority needed to get the job done.
Tell me, Mr. spectator marshal: what are you going to do when one of the thousands of fans who aren't well-behaved middle class Subaru drivers decides to tell you to screw-off? Cancel the stage? Great--that'll make for a fun event.
If there is a detailed, well thought out plan that covers such contingencies, don't you think they would have shared it with the very people sitting on the fence trying to decide between coming to help and sitting out a potential disaster? Please PM me if you know more details--but I've been talking to all the "usual suspects" and no one has heard a thing.
Frankly, I would [i]love[/i] to work an old fashioned spectator control. I've been a marshal a bunch of times, and it has--in the past--been a great way to see the rally. I find my experience is better utilized running a stage. If you'll refer to paragraph two, above, you'll see where I'm coming from in this case, however.
What is so disturbing is how little information the STPR organizers have released about their spectator plan. Apparently, their spectator safety steward resigned two weeks ago. Plus, they've gotten some incredibly harsh directives from Topeka which they have the responsibility of following without the authority needed to get the job done.
Tell me, Mr. spectator marshal: what are you going to do when one of the thousands of fans who aren't well-behaved middle class Subaru drivers decides to tell you to screw-off? Cancel the stage? Great--that'll make for a fun event.
If there is a detailed, well thought out plan that covers such contingencies, don't you think they would have shared it with the very people sitting on the fence trying to decide between coming to help and sitting out a potential disaster? Please PM me if you know more details--but I've been talking to all the "usual suspects" and no one has heard a thing.
| Rovah | 05-30-2003 11:37 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
The entire "the woods... the cars... and you" ethos of rally spectating is being compromised. The quiet and beauty of nature, a cold beer, a good cigar, a few good friends, punctuated by the approach each minute of a ripping exhaust, gravel spitting rally car that passes close enough to you that you lean back from the sheer force of it blasting through the air. There is certainly some risk involved, but I'm an adult and can make my own choices about whick risks I choose to take.
They're trying to change the very core of what it means to be a rally fan. Perhaps standing shoulder to shoulder with mom, dad, the baby and the dog in a fenced off spectator zone located a "safe" distance from the rally will appeal to some people. I can't say it will ever appeal to me.
The people trying to feed you this pile of crap will use examples of idiots who walk down live stage roads to make their point. There is a big gap between responsible, experienced rally fans and those folks, so don't fall for it when they point to the truly dangerous yahoos in their effort to ruin spectating for the rest of us. Deal with the actual problem, don't amputate your leg beacuse your toe is infected.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this issue Jon. For some reason there is a huge sense of entitlement among spectators.
Just because I've paid my entry fee for an event, that doesn't entitle me to act in ways that are not safe and responsible. I've heard lots of idiotic arguments lately like, "it's not their land, so I can do what I want." I'm a safe spectator, so let ME do what I want." I'm paraphrasing, but you've read the same stuff.
As I noted in a post on specialstage. There were hundreds of spectators walking out both sides of a hot stage as I drove into it at Charlevoix last fall.
YOU may be a responsible and safe spectator, but we have to deal with the lowest common denominator. And believe me, there of plenty of spectators that fit that bill.
I have no idea how they're going to enforce this, or whether spectating will continue to be a passtime that people can enjoy.
There were discussion four years ago on Rally-L about how spectator injuries were going to damage the sport here in the US and change it forever.
Well, here we are...where we'll end up is going to be a result of cooperation of both spectators, organizers and competitors...
Regards, John
The entire "the woods... the cars... and you" ethos of rally spectating is being compromised. The quiet and beauty of nature, a cold beer, a good cigar, a few good friends, punctuated by the approach each minute of a ripping exhaust, gravel spitting rally car that passes close enough to you that you lean back from the sheer force of it blasting through the air. There is certainly some risk involved, but I'm an adult and can make my own choices about whick risks I choose to take.
They're trying to change the very core of what it means to be a rally fan. Perhaps standing shoulder to shoulder with mom, dad, the baby and the dog in a fenced off spectator zone located a "safe" distance from the rally will appeal to some people. I can't say it will ever appeal to me.
The people trying to feed you this pile of crap will use examples of idiots who walk down live stage roads to make their point. There is a big gap between responsible, experienced rally fans and those folks, so don't fall for it when they point to the truly dangerous yahoos in their effort to ruin spectating for the rest of us. Deal with the actual problem, don't amputate your leg beacuse your toe is infected.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this issue Jon. For some reason there is a huge sense of entitlement among spectators.
Just because I've paid my entry fee for an event, that doesn't entitle me to act in ways that are not safe and responsible. I've heard lots of idiotic arguments lately like, "it's not their land, so I can do what I want." I'm a safe spectator, so let ME do what I want." I'm paraphrasing, but you've read the same stuff.
As I noted in a post on specialstage. There were hundreds of spectators walking out both sides of a hot stage as I drove into it at Charlevoix last fall.
YOU may be a responsible and safe spectator, but we have to deal with the lowest common denominator. And believe me, there of plenty of spectators that fit that bill.
I have no idea how they're going to enforce this, or whether spectating will continue to be a passtime that people can enjoy.
There were discussion four years ago on Rally-L about how spectator injuries were going to damage the sport here in the US and change it forever.
Well, here we are...where we'll end up is going to be a result of cooperation of both spectators, organizers and competitors...
Regards, John
| Jon Bogert | 05-30-2003 11:49 AM |
John, you've put your finger right on the core issue. The SCCA put resources into promoting rally as a spectator sport with the cooperation of Hyundai, Subaru and Mitsubishi. And now they are trying to exclude/restrict the very same people their promotion efforts have attracted.
If I were a ProRally organizer, I'd be tearing my hair out right now. I really don't know what they're going to do and it looks like a big Catch-22 to me.
If I were a ProRally organizer, I'd be tearing my hair out right now. I really don't know what they're going to do and it looks like a big Catch-22 to me.
| rallynutdon | 05-30-2003 12:02 PM |
John, just how do you purpose to get cooperation (full, total as the SCCA is requiring) from the spectating public? It's certainly going to be interesting and I for one am getting myself prepared to see rallying (at least with SCCA as the controlling group) go away very quickly.
Jon made good points about SCCA encouraging it, then squashing it. Can't have it both ways.
Jon made good points about SCCA encouraging it, then squashing it. Can't have it both ways.
| Rovah | 05-30-2003 12:04 PM |
I agree Jon. Many communities that host ProRally events(Like Rumford Maine), see a large influx of cash over rally weekend. A large chunk of this comes from spectators.
Either the SCCA will get this figured out, or another sanctioning body will find ProRally events ripe for the taking.
Spectators in Canada are more numerous than in the US. Most are what I'd consider to be "Pro," spectators like yourself. They know where they want and need to be. Have their supplies and settle in for a good show.
But, with the popularity of the sport rising both here and in Canada, the number of people wandering into the woods to see what it's all about without a clue to what is safe and what is not is very dangerous.
There is a marshall car in Canadian events(at least Charlevoix and Quebec-maybe because they were FIA sanctioned) that had a siren and PA. They would stop and move spectators to safer location as they came through the stage. Then the course opening car would come through..
I also think that the safety of spectators would be well served by Club events running stage notes. The inconsistency and completeness of route books supplied in blind Club events has always been a concern to me. An objective note system like the Jemba would go a long way to ensuring consistency and, I would imagine, satisfying insurers as well.
As a driver, I'll do what I can to get home in one piece as I understand the potential for harm that I'm exposing myself and co-driver to.
At present, I don't think that spectators are even entertaining the idea that they may be killed at a rally. The reality is that their ignorance and bravado may get them killed. That we feel this is a right in the US is strange...
Regards, John
Either the SCCA will get this figured out, or another sanctioning body will find ProRally events ripe for the taking.
Spectators in Canada are more numerous than in the US. Most are what I'd consider to be "Pro," spectators like yourself. They know where they want and need to be. Have their supplies and settle in for a good show.
But, with the popularity of the sport rising both here and in Canada, the number of people wandering into the woods to see what it's all about without a clue to what is safe and what is not is very dangerous.
There is a marshall car in Canadian events(at least Charlevoix and Quebec-maybe because they were FIA sanctioned) that had a siren and PA. They would stop and move spectators to safer location as they came through the stage. Then the course opening car would come through..
I also think that the safety of spectators would be well served by Club events running stage notes. The inconsistency and completeness of route books supplied in blind Club events has always been a concern to me. An objective note system like the Jemba would go a long way to ensuring consistency and, I would imagine, satisfying insurers as well.
As a driver, I'll do what I can to get home in one piece as I understand the potential for harm that I'm exposing myself and co-driver to.
At present, I don't think that spectators are even entertaining the idea that they may be killed at a rally. The reality is that their ignorance and bravado may get them killed. That we feel this is a right in the US is strange...
Regards, John
| Rovah | 05-30-2003 12:12 PM |
Rallynut,
I have no idea how the SCCA will get full specator cooperation.
How do they do it at Nascar events? Off road events? WRC events?
We've seen many WRC stages cancelled over the last couple of years because of spectator behavior. You can bet that there is a risk-management representitive on the ground at all WRC events to make decisions about safety in order to prevent injury and protect the insurance company and ultimately the sport.
Please don't ask me for the answer. I'm a driver. I don't spectate. I know what I see out my window, and I know a lot of times that what I see is not safe.
How does the SCCA get the full cooperation from competitors? Rules and penalties.
I see this as no different, but from a practical standpoint, it may be impossible.
I don't rallying going away, but the spectators might. I hope it doesn't come to that as I love to see spectators out in the snow with their fires or blowing their air horns as we go by... :-)
Regards, John
I have no idea how the SCCA will get full specator cooperation.
How do they do it at Nascar events? Off road events? WRC events?
We've seen many WRC stages cancelled over the last couple of years because of spectator behavior. You can bet that there is a risk-management representitive on the ground at all WRC events to make decisions about safety in order to prevent injury and protect the insurance company and ultimately the sport.
Please don't ask me for the answer. I'm a driver. I don't spectate. I know what I see out my window, and I know a lot of times that what I see is not safe.
How does the SCCA get the full cooperation from competitors? Rules and penalties.
I see this as no different, but from a practical standpoint, it may be impossible.
I don't rallying going away, but the spectators might. I hope it doesn't come to that as I love to see spectators out in the snow with their fires or blowing their air horns as we go by... :-)
Regards, John
| rallynutdon | 05-30-2003 12:35 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Rovah [/i]
[B]Rallynut,
I have no idea how the SCCA will get full specator cooperation.
How do they do it at Nascar events? Off road events? WRC events?
NASCAR, limited area, easy control. Off road, not sure how much they do. WRC, they certainly can't be forcing all into "official" spectator areas (someone from the other side of the pond please respond).
We've seen many WRC stages cancelled over the last couple of years because of spectator behavior. You can bet that there is a risk-management representitive on the ground at all WRC events to make decisions about safety in order to prevent injury and protect the insurance company and ultimately the sport.
Yep. They periodically cancel stages. But not most of the stages as will most likely happen in 1 week.
Please don't ask me for the answer. I'm a driver. I don't spectate. I know what I see out my window, and I know a lot of times that what I see is not safe.
How does the SCCA get the full cooperation from competitors? Rules and penalties.
I didn't ask about competitors. I asked about spectators. I don't think there's any problems with competitors.
I see this as no different, but from a practical standpoint, it may be impossible.
I don't rallying going away, but the spectators might. I hope it doesn't come to that as I love to see spectators out in the snow with their fires or blowing their air horns as we go by... :-)
Regards, John [/B][/QUOTE]
I won't say any more. I've been involved for 23 years. I'm not a pessimit, I'm a realist.
[B]Rallynut,
I have no idea how the SCCA will get full specator cooperation.
How do they do it at Nascar events? Off road events? WRC events?
NASCAR, limited area, easy control. Off road, not sure how much they do. WRC, they certainly can't be forcing all into "official" spectator areas (someone from the other side of the pond please respond).
We've seen many WRC stages cancelled over the last couple of years because of spectator behavior. You can bet that there is a risk-management representitive on the ground at all WRC events to make decisions about safety in order to prevent injury and protect the insurance company and ultimately the sport.
Yep. They periodically cancel stages. But not most of the stages as will most likely happen in 1 week.
Please don't ask me for the answer. I'm a driver. I don't spectate. I know what I see out my window, and I know a lot of times that what I see is not safe.
How does the SCCA get the full cooperation from competitors? Rules and penalties.
I didn't ask about competitors. I asked about spectators. I don't think there's any problems with competitors.
I see this as no different, but from a practical standpoint, it may be impossible.
I don't rallying going away, but the spectators might. I hope it doesn't come to that as I love to see spectators out in the snow with their fires or blowing their air horns as we go by... :-)
Regards, John [/B][/QUOTE]
I won't say any more. I've been involved for 23 years. I'm not a pessimit, I'm a realist.
| iceweazel | 05-30-2003 02:54 PM |
Well at least for _this_ event its going to be all about the insurance people staying happy.
Everything else is just BS.
Here' hoping we make it. :(
Ed
Everything else is just BS.
Here' hoping we make it. :(
Ed
| Rovah | 05-30-2003 03:14 PM |
I'd classify myself as an optimist and a realist. Pessimism is what I'm seeing a lot of from competitors and spectators both.
I'm not sure what all the negativity is going to get us? I don't know what tomorrow will bring. For those that do, more power to them! :-)
See some of you at STPR. I have to go do some more car prep and tuning.
Cheers! John
I'm not sure what all the negativity is going to get us? I don't know what tomorrow will bring. For those that do, more power to them! :-)
See some of you at STPR. I have to go do some more car prep and tuning.
Cheers! John
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-30-2003 06:07 PM |
What would I like to see:
- Well marked off spectator areas that give the people a safe place to watch from, a big area to watch from to they're not on top of each other or layered 5-6 people deep, and a good place where there will be action happening. At this spectator area will be marshals keeping people there & under control.
- After the marshals are set, send in the 000 car. Move people out who aren't in safe area. I would like to see this 000 car use their judgement on people who are not in the spectator area, but are in a safe spot. An example would be a group of people on a private land owners front lawn. As long as it is not on the outside of a corner, I would view this as ok. Other spots would be fields or spots high off the road where a car could never get to, but yields the spectators a good opportunity to watch. Hell, plop a marshal with a radio there. Anyone who is not in one of these "safer" areas, move them out. Get them into a spectator area where they'll be controlled by the marshals. Now you've got a [i]relatively[/i] safe stage without pissing off people who aren't being wreckless. There will never be a totally safe stage. A group could have hiked into the woods early and be hiding deep in the brush only to come out after the 0 car goes by.
Then do this for all the stages. What will you then have? You'll have people where you want them to be with minimal stragglers. They'll never keep EVERYONE off the stage except for spectator areas. I'll eat my hat if they're able to do that.
As for me, I won't be marshaling, but I'll be doing my press thing. Though if I do see people being dumb or doing something they shouldn't, I'll put on a marshal hat and do what I can to fix the situation.
I've typed a lot and can't remember the subject of what I was replying to. I'm sure that there are enough people who know what is going on and know what is at risk, that they'll don the marshal hat (even if they're not marshaling) and do what it takes to help the marshals out. This is not up to the SCCA. This is not up to the organizers. This is up to all of us that will be in the woods. That one guy that walks by you down the stage could be the reason the stage is cancelled. Stop him and send him back. Do whatever you can.
Ok, that is my inspirational speech for the day. Time for some swordfish on the grill & some beer :cool:
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
- Well marked off spectator areas that give the people a safe place to watch from, a big area to watch from to they're not on top of each other or layered 5-6 people deep, and a good place where there will be action happening. At this spectator area will be marshals keeping people there & under control.
- After the marshals are set, send in the 000 car. Move people out who aren't in safe area. I would like to see this 000 car use their judgement on people who are not in the spectator area, but are in a safe spot. An example would be a group of people on a private land owners front lawn. As long as it is not on the outside of a corner, I would view this as ok. Other spots would be fields or spots high off the road where a car could never get to, but yields the spectators a good opportunity to watch. Hell, plop a marshal with a radio there. Anyone who is not in one of these "safer" areas, move them out. Get them into a spectator area where they'll be controlled by the marshals. Now you've got a [i]relatively[/i] safe stage without pissing off people who aren't being wreckless. There will never be a totally safe stage. A group could have hiked into the woods early and be hiding deep in the brush only to come out after the 0 car goes by.
Then do this for all the stages. What will you then have? You'll have people where you want them to be with minimal stragglers. They'll never keep EVERYONE off the stage except for spectator areas. I'll eat my hat if they're able to do that.
As for me, I won't be marshaling, but I'll be doing my press thing. Though if I do see people being dumb or doing something they shouldn't, I'll put on a marshal hat and do what I can to fix the situation.
I've typed a lot and can't remember the subject of what I was replying to. I'm sure that there are enough people who know what is going on and know what is at risk, that they'll don the marshal hat (even if they're not marshaling) and do what it takes to help the marshals out. This is not up to the SCCA. This is not up to the organizers. This is up to all of us that will be in the woods. That one guy that walks by you down the stage could be the reason the stage is cancelled. Stop him and send him back. Do whatever you can.
Ok, that is my inspirational speech for the day. Time for some swordfish on the grill & some beer :cool:
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
| Thug | 06-01-2003 01:06 AM |
If STPR goes down the way it looks like it's going to, I wont be making it 6 consecutive years at MFR. I have no desire to drive 4 hours to get stuffed into a pen next to a family of five and behind a guy that's a foot taller than me. That's not rally spectating. Rally spectating is hiking my way though the thick brush, finding a safe spot and getting a face full of gravel and a whiff of fuel everytime a car goes by. The SCCA has already lost me as a competitor this year, maybe they'll lose me as a spectator too.
-Nate
[I]former[/I] SCCA Club Rally license holder
-Nate
[I]former[/I] SCCA Club Rally license holder
| NotAnRS | 06-01-2003 08:56 AM |
I'd like to thank Jon, John and the rest for a good debate here. Much better than some of the crap going on at the STPR site.
Does something need to be done (improved) to control spectating? Yes.
Is the SCCA's reaction to the ACCIDENT at Sawmill correct? No.
Are the STPR organizers to blame for what happens next? No. (I do, in fact, have great pity for them).
Is there a better solution? Yes.
Does SCCA management have it's collective head up it's ass and is afraid to take a proactive vs reactive stand with the insurance company? DUH! :disco:
This new directive won't work. Rallying in the US is at a turning point. Count me among the pessimists at this point.
See you guys at an STPR road block next week. ;)
Does something need to be done (improved) to control spectating? Yes.
Is the SCCA's reaction to the ACCIDENT at Sawmill correct? No.
Are the STPR organizers to blame for what happens next? No. (I do, in fact, have great pity for them).
Is there a better solution? Yes.
Does SCCA management have it's collective head up it's ass and is afraid to take a proactive vs reactive stand with the insurance company? DUH! :disco:
This new directive won't work. Rallying in the US is at a turning point. Count me among the pessimists at this point.
See you guys at an STPR road block next week. ;)
| Geek Guy | 06-01-2003 09:48 AM |
I believe that these new restrictions are stricly to appease the insurers that the event is safe. If STPR goes off without a hitch, I'd expect to see a *slightly* less strict spectator enforcement policy at Maine.
But speaking about Maine, there WERE stages last year that should have been cancelled - spectators were out of control, but the stage captain didn't want to upset the brass. I think that if things were like last year, I'd hope that some stages were cancelled.
In summary, I just want to say this: folks, this is NOT the ends to spectating. This is a time of everyone looking to make things safer, make the insurers feel that they won't have to pay out on claims, and let the events continue on. This is NOT how spectating is going to be in the future. Give it some time. Things will change - maybe not this year, it's tough to say. But please, don't give up on spectating, or working events. For everyone that's complaining about restrictions on where they can go, what they can do, *register as a worker*! I think it would be amazing to have too many workers for events!
But speaking about Maine, there WERE stages last year that should have been cancelled - spectators were out of control, but the stage captain didn't want to upset the brass. I think that if things were like last year, I'd hope that some stages were cancelled.
In summary, I just want to say this: folks, this is NOT the ends to spectating. This is a time of everyone looking to make things safer, make the insurers feel that they won't have to pay out on claims, and let the events continue on. This is NOT how spectating is going to be in the future. Give it some time. Things will change - maybe not this year, it's tough to say. But please, don't give up on spectating, or working events. For everyone that's complaining about restrictions on where they can go, what they can do, *register as a worker*! I think it would be amazing to have too many workers for events!
| Chromer | 06-02-2003 09:20 AM |
[quote]For everyone that's complaining about restrictions on where they can go, what they can do, *register as a worker*![/quote]
Hmm. I can stand in the spectator pen and sort-of see the cars and have time to watch the service too, or register as a worker and take the chance on being asked to block an intersection miles from a stage and having to play bad cop for the locals trying to get to their fishing hole a mile down the road.
Hmm. Tough call.
Hmm. I can stand in the spectator pen and sort-of see the cars and have time to watch the service too, or register as a worker and take the chance on being asked to block an intersection miles from a stage and having to play bad cop for the locals trying to get to their fishing hole a mile down the road.
Hmm. Tough call.
| jprowland | 06-02-2003 10:15 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chromer [/i]
[B]
Hmm. I can stand in the spectator pen and sort-of see the cars and have time to watch the service too, or register as a worker and take the chance on being asked to block an intersection miles from a stage and having to play bad cop for the locals trying to get to their fishing hole a mile down the road.
Hmm. Tough call. [/B][/QUOTE]
Since when has any organizer asked a worker to "block an intersection miles from a stage?" That makes no sense...To block an intersection it has to be done at the same point that it meets a stage; otherwise you're wasting your manpower.
The only non-action stage workers that I can think of are the start and finish controls. And you can ask to marshall on stage instead of working one of these controls, usually there are plenty who don't mind getting that much closer to the competitors. And they prefer people with more experience for those spots, anyway.
At Maine, I was parked close enough that my car hood was getting showered in gravel. Ok, so the gravel was mostly my fault for parking too close (don't get scared off, your car will survive the event!) but you see the point. Both of my assignments were great, isolated vantage spots, and I was still able to spectate (without working) the first and one of the last stages of the event.
I was hoping to co-drive for STPR, but it looks like I'll be working radio instead. Personally, I don't feel a sense of entitlement that I can just go and spectate. Maybe that's just my feelings as a competitor...
--
JP Rowland [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland/[/url]
[B]
Hmm. I can stand in the spectator pen and sort-of see the cars and have time to watch the service too, or register as a worker and take the chance on being asked to block an intersection miles from a stage and having to play bad cop for the locals trying to get to their fishing hole a mile down the road.
Hmm. Tough call. [/B][/QUOTE]
Since when has any organizer asked a worker to "block an intersection miles from a stage?" That makes no sense...To block an intersection it has to be done at the same point that it meets a stage; otherwise you're wasting your manpower.
The only non-action stage workers that I can think of are the start and finish controls. And you can ask to marshall on stage instead of working one of these controls, usually there are plenty who don't mind getting that much closer to the competitors. And they prefer people with more experience for those spots, anyway.
At Maine, I was parked close enough that my car hood was getting showered in gravel. Ok, so the gravel was mostly my fault for parking too close (don't get scared off, your car will survive the event!) but you see the point. Both of my assignments were great, isolated vantage spots, and I was still able to spectate (without working) the first and one of the last stages of the event.
I was hoping to co-drive for STPR, but it looks like I'll be working radio instead. Personally, I don't feel a sense of entitlement that I can just go and spectate. Maybe that's just my feelings as a competitor...
--
JP Rowland [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland/[/url]
| rallynutdon | 06-02-2003 01:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jprowland [/i]
[B]
Since when has any organizer asked a worker to "block an intersection miles from a stage?" That makes no sense...To block an intersection it has to be done at the same point that it meets a stage; otherwise you're wasting your manpower.
--
JP Rowland [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland/[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
That was true up until now. Every one of those side roads that are going to be blocked (physically) 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 miles out will most likely also be manned. We'll see. It's going to be a shame if we have to sacrifice STPR to the powers.
[B]
Since when has any organizer asked a worker to "block an intersection miles from a stage?" That makes no sense...To block an intersection it has to be done at the same point that it meets a stage; otherwise you're wasting your manpower.
--
JP Rowland [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland/[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
That was true up until now. Every one of those side roads that are going to be blocked (physically) 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 miles out will most likely also be manned. We'll see. It's going to be a shame if we have to sacrifice STPR to the powers.
| jprowland | 06-02-2003 01:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallynutdon [/i]
[B]
That was true up until now. Every one of those side roads that are going to be blocked (physically) 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 miles out will most likely also be manned. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, you've got a point I guess. Hopefully they won't have to do this, but if so, I guess we can only hope that it doesn't burn anyone out on working. I'm still planning on working, myself...
[B]
That was true up until now. Every one of those side roads that are going to be blocked (physically) 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 miles out will most likely also be manned. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, you've got a point I guess. Hopefully they won't have to do this, but if so, I guess we can only hope that it doesn't burn anyone out on working. I'm still planning on working, myself...
| Pete 97 GS-T | 06-03-2003 07:07 PM |
New info here:
[url]http://www.scca.org/news/tech/prorally/PRCB053003-STPRProcedure.pdf[/url]
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
[url]http://www.scca.org/news/tech/prorally/PRCB053003-STPRProcedure.pdf[/url]
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
| Geek Guy | 06-03-2003 08:02 PM |
Pete,
Thanks for posting that link. This is HUGE news, people. Competitors are *obliged* to stop and display the red cross if they see *you* out of place in an unsafe location.
If one competitor doesn't stop, someone else will. It *will* cancel stages.
Play by the rules, please!
Thanks for posting that link. This is HUGE news, people. Competitors are *obliged* to stop and display the red cross if they see *you* out of place in an unsafe location.
If one competitor doesn't stop, someone else will. It *will* cancel stages.
Play by the rules, please!
| Pete 97 GS-T | 06-03-2003 08:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Geek Guy [/i]
[B]Pete,
Thanks for posting that link. This is HUGE news, people. Competitors are *obliged* to stop and display the red cross if they see *you* out of place in an unsafe location.
If one competitor doesn't stop, someone else will. It *will* cancel stages.
Play by the rules, please! [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes. This shows some meaning on the SCCA and organizers part. It's not just marshals involved, but it's the competitors too now. And the SCCA is going to make sure that this rule is enforced (read: mandatory drivers meeting on Saturday). I hope everyone sees this SCCA note and follows what it says. I really don't want to have to see any stages cancelled. Please spread the word, even at the event.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
[B]Pete,
Thanks for posting that link. This is HUGE news, people. Competitors are *obliged* to stop and display the red cross if they see *you* out of place in an unsafe location.
If one competitor doesn't stop, someone else will. It *will* cancel stages.
Play by the rules, please! [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes. This shows some meaning on the SCCA and organizers part. It's not just marshals involved, but it's the competitors too now. And the SCCA is going to make sure that this rule is enforced (read: mandatory drivers meeting on Saturday). I hope everyone sees this SCCA note and follows what it says. I really don't want to have to see any stages cancelled. Please spread the word, even at the event.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
| Rovah | 06-03-2003 08:34 PM |
I didn't really start rallying to become a policeman, but I DO think that rally crews can make an accurate judegment of the situation and display the red cross appropriately.
There will obviously be LOTS of discussion about this latest devlopment at the STPR driver's meeting. There has been some already on the Rally-L mailing list.
I see nothing wrong with this rule, unless there is some incentive, other than specator safety, for a team to either display or not display the red cross.
Cheers! John
There will obviously be LOTS of discussion about this latest devlopment at the STPR driver's meeting. There has been some already on the Rally-L mailing list.
I see nothing wrong with this rule, unless there is some incentive, other than specator safety, for a team to either display or not display the red cross.
Cheers! John
| Jon Bogert | 06-03-2003 09:55 PM |
Amazing. A new low. I wonder if Lovell will stop his car when he sees a spectator? Actually, I don't wonder at all, of course he won't.
Maybe some of the drivers will show some spine in the drivers' meeting and laugh openly at this ridiculous requirement.
Or shall we all just stare at the ground, shuffle our feet and mumble, "yes, massah"? :mad:
A while ago, someone was talking about forming a drivers' union. Now would be a great time, I think.
Maybe some of the drivers will show some spine in the drivers' meeting and laugh openly at this ridiculous requirement.
Or shall we all just stare at the ground, shuffle our feet and mumble, "yes, massah"? :mad:
A while ago, someone was talking about forming a drivers' union. Now would be a great time, I think.
| rallynutdon | 06-03-2003 10:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Rovah [/i]
[B]I see nothing wrong with this rule, unless there is some incentive, other than specator safety, for a team to either display or not display the red cross.
Cheers! John [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry John, I do see (at least) one main thing wrong with this. 138 (# of competitors) different opinions of what's safe and what's not safe. Nuff said.
[B]I see nothing wrong with this rule, unless there is some incentive, other than specator safety, for a team to either display or not display the red cross.
Cheers! John [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry John, I do see (at least) one main thing wrong with this. 138 (# of competitors) different opinions of what's safe and what's not safe. Nuff said.
| Rally Performance | 06-04-2003 12:57 AM |
Farewell
�
�
Oy.
I remember stage 11. There used to be a little spot, a downhill hairpin where workers and spectators who really knew the rally late in the night would gather. Big high banks, everyone knew where to sit.
It would be late late late... maybe raining, noone cared. There would be just little conversations, and about nine radios muttering...
Then the cars would come. Beautiful, long slides in an impossible turn. Once an Audi went off, and we all looked at each other - then 20 of us jumped off the bank and bodily lifted it back on, which was stupid and dangerous.
But a great memory. Stepnewski was it?.
ONE THING to think about however - STPR has just superb spectator spots. Dont give up on coming before you try it. Its not like Maine where you can't get away from the road.... there will probably still be great views of the cars. If Diane and the crew can manage to do it right, there will be space, and you can see very well in these woods.
Just please follow the rules.
...and bring your rain gear just in case, and jackets. Its cold here and wet. Shouldn't be much dust.
....and for those coming in on Friday night, look for our easy-up shelter down towards McDonalds. If things go well, we will have the car there and the shelter up... and maybe some subsidized (discounted) pizza and soda for NASIOC readers.
Regards,
Ken Cole
Rally Performance
I remember stage 11. There used to be a little spot, a downhill hairpin where workers and spectators who really knew the rally late in the night would gather. Big high banks, everyone knew where to sit.
It would be late late late... maybe raining, noone cared. There would be just little conversations, and about nine radios muttering...
Then the cars would come. Beautiful, long slides in an impossible turn. Once an Audi went off, and we all looked at each other - then 20 of us jumped off the bank and bodily lifted it back on, which was stupid and dangerous.
But a great memory. Stepnewski was it?.
ONE THING to think about however - STPR has just superb spectator spots. Dont give up on coming before you try it. Its not like Maine where you can't get away from the road.... there will probably still be great views of the cars. If Diane and the crew can manage to do it right, there will be space, and you can see very well in these woods.
Just please follow the rules.
...and bring your rain gear just in case, and jackets. Its cold here and wet. Shouldn't be much dust.
....and for those coming in on Friday night, look for our easy-up shelter down towards McDonalds. If things go well, we will have the car there and the shelter up... and maybe some subsidized (discounted) pizza and soda for NASIOC readers.
Regards,
Ken Cole
Rally Performance
| jprowland | 06-04-2003 08:45 AM |
Re: Farewell
�
�
I read this on SpecialStage.com. Maybe the volunteer marshals won't be blocking the distant intersections after all:
[QUOTE][B]Roads leading into the special stages will be blocked at the previous intersection, I believe by what Pennsylvania calls Fire Police. These guys will give potential spectators written directions to designated spectator areas. This is in addition to the normal stage marshalls at the intersections of the actual stage roads and approach roads. Having a choice of walking a few miles into a place where you will be prohibited from watching or going to a designated spectator area, it is hoped that spectators will use the designated areas.
There are at least six designated spectator areas. The ones in the evening are on a double loop so you get two stages from one location.
Paul Jaeger
PRIMO Stage Crews
For a Good Time, Call PRIMO![/B][/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/1438.html[/url]
-
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Visit my boring web page: [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url]
[QUOTE][B]Roads leading into the special stages will be blocked at the previous intersection, I believe by what Pennsylvania calls Fire Police. These guys will give potential spectators written directions to designated spectator areas. This is in addition to the normal stage marshalls at the intersections of the actual stage roads and approach roads. Having a choice of walking a few miles into a place where you will be prohibited from watching or going to a designated spectator area, it is hoped that spectators will use the designated areas.
There are at least six designated spectator areas. The ones in the evening are on a double loop so you get two stages from one location.
Paul Jaeger
PRIMO Stage Crews
For a Good Time, Call PRIMO![/B][/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/1438.html[/url]
-
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Visit my boring web page: [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url]
| NotAnRS | 06-04-2003 12:25 PM |
Ken,
I know that spot! Dead Man's Hollow. I think you get there from the twisty paved road past the maintenance shed. :)
I was there when that Audi went off, and I got very muddy after jumping on the trunk lid and subsequently falling off after he backed out. Great fun!
Nothing like being in the totally black woods at 1am watching blinding lights and glowing rotors. :) :) :)
I know that spot! Dead Man's Hollow. I think you get there from the twisty paved road past the maintenance shed. :)
I was there when that Audi went off, and I got very muddy after jumping on the trunk lid and subsequently falling off after he backed out. Great fun!
Nothing like being in the totally black woods at 1am watching blinding lights and glowing rotors. :) :) :)
| Rovah | 06-04-2003 12:38 PM |
Don,
I can't help but comment. I know you have nothing positive to say about rallying at the moment-It's quite obvious from your posts on Rally-L, Specialstage or NASIOC.
I'm sure that we'll all find out on Saturday what constitutes a red cross situation according to the new safety bulletin.
I have refrained from making assumptions about what is going to come from this until I get more information on Saturday.
I doubt that they will allow you to put out your red cross for a turtle in the road, but who knows!?
From your posts, it seems that you know exactly where rallying is going, and are obviously unhappy with the sport.
Perhaps it's time for a new hobby?
Regards, John
I can't help but comment. I know you have nothing positive to say about rallying at the moment-It's quite obvious from your posts on Rally-L, Specialstage or NASIOC.
I'm sure that we'll all find out on Saturday what constitutes a red cross situation according to the new safety bulletin.
I have refrained from making assumptions about what is going to come from this until I get more information on Saturday.
I doubt that they will allow you to put out your red cross for a turtle in the road, but who knows!?
From your posts, it seems that you know exactly where rallying is going, and are obviously unhappy with the sport.
Perhaps it's time for a new hobby?
Regards, John
| Thug | 06-04-2003 01:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]Amazing. A new low. I wonder if Lovell will stop his car when he sees a spectator? Actually, I don't wonder at all, of course he won't.
[/B][/QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly. I can see it now. Lovell will pass a spectator and not put up the red cross. Nothing will come of it. A privateer will pass a spectator and not put up the red cross and they'll be DQ'd. I think I'll save this.
[B]Amazing. A new low. I wonder if Lovell will stop his car when he sees a spectator? Actually, I don't wonder at all, of course he won't.
[/B][/QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly. I can see it now. Lovell will pass a spectator and not put up the red cross. Nothing will come of it. A privateer will pass a spectator and not put up the red cross and they'll be DQ'd. I think I'll save this.
| Jon Bogert | 06-04-2003 01:14 PM |
[QUOTE]Perhaps it's time for a new hobby?[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Non-SCCA rallying. That will be the kind that organizers want to create events for, competitors want to enter and spectators want to watch.
Exactly. Non-SCCA rallying. That will be the kind that organizers want to create events for, competitors want to enter and spectators want to watch.
| Rovah | 06-04-2003 02:16 PM |
Jon,
It's a very real possibility(non SCCA rallying). I'm sure other sanctioning bodies are watching the SCCA very closely to see what they're going to do with this.
I hope that no one is kidding themselves that another sanctioning body/insurance company in the US will be more lax on safety and allow the way events were run in the past to continue into the future. They will all use the recent accident as Sawmill in their decision making when deciding on liability issues.
If I were an uphappy competitor, I'd take my $$ to Canada(and I have). The events are great, the organizers always welcoming, the funds go further, and you can actually be competitive in Production due to the multi-level situation. With the CARS/SCCA reciprocity, you can race on your own license or get a CARS national license.
Don't be surprised if Canada institutes more strict spectator safety regulations within the next year though. The number of spectators is much higher at Canadian than the US. As I mentioned in another post, there was an injury at Charlevoix due to a rally car hitting a spectator on a hot stage.
Why do you think they have Targa Newfoundland in Newfoundland? Because you couldn't get an insurance company to sanction that type of event(cars at full speed on public roads) in the US.
I'm hoping that the SCCA will ask for and consider ALL driver input they get on this very serious subject of spectator safety.
Regards, John
It's a very real possibility(non SCCA rallying). I'm sure other sanctioning bodies are watching the SCCA very closely to see what they're going to do with this.
I hope that no one is kidding themselves that another sanctioning body/insurance company in the US will be more lax on safety and allow the way events were run in the past to continue into the future. They will all use the recent accident as Sawmill in their decision making when deciding on liability issues.
If I were an uphappy competitor, I'd take my $$ to Canada(and I have). The events are great, the organizers always welcoming, the funds go further, and you can actually be competitive in Production due to the multi-level situation. With the CARS/SCCA reciprocity, you can race on your own license or get a CARS national license.
Don't be surprised if Canada institutes more strict spectator safety regulations within the next year though. The number of spectators is much higher at Canadian than the US. As I mentioned in another post, there was an injury at Charlevoix due to a rally car hitting a spectator on a hot stage.
Why do you think they have Targa Newfoundland in Newfoundland? Because you couldn't get an insurance company to sanction that type of event(cars at full speed on public roads) in the US.
I'm hoping that the SCCA will ask for and consider ALL driver input they get on this very serious subject of spectator safety.
Regards, John
| Kha0S | 06-04-2003 03:13 PM |
In addition to CARS events, we should start trying to convince USAC to extend the ARS out to the eastern portion of the US. They've already got Cherokee Trails, Laughlin, and Gorman... let's help them get a foothold out here and give the SCCA a run for their money.
/Andrew
/Andrew
| Rally Performance | 06-04-2003 05:31 PM |
Not an RS
�
�
Not an RS -
Exactly!!! In fact I was the other guy next to you on the trunk lid probably... funny, small world. My dad was pushing from below the left front corner, with the wheel slinging mud on him :)
See you at the rally -
Ken
Exactly!!! In fact I was the other guy next to you on the trunk lid probably... funny, small world. My dad was pushing from below the left front corner, with the wheel slinging mud on him :)
See you at the rally -
Ken
| rallynutdon | 06-05-2003 08:05 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Rovah [/i]
[B]Don,
I can't help but comment. I know you have nothing positive to say about rallying at the moment-It's quite obvious from your posts on Rally-L, Specialstage or NASIOC.
Perhaps it's time for a new hobby?
Regards, John [/B][/QUOTE]
Rovah, you've got it all wrong. I (like many others that have been around for quite a while) have nothing MUCH POSITIVE to say about the SCCA. It's not time for a new hobby, it's time for a new sanctioning organization, one that cares and communicates with its membership on a more consistent basis. One with leadership that's been around the sport for some period of time (I never did buy into that theory that a good salesman could sell anything, of course he can to some people. You need to know your product and audience).
See you Friday.
Don Kennedy (done commenting, lets hope and pray that Saturday proves me wrong).
[B]Don,
I can't help but comment. I know you have nothing positive to say about rallying at the moment-It's quite obvious from your posts on Rally-L, Specialstage or NASIOC.
Perhaps it's time for a new hobby?
Regards, John [/B][/QUOTE]
Rovah, you've got it all wrong. I (like many others that have been around for quite a while) have nothing MUCH POSITIVE to say about the SCCA. It's not time for a new hobby, it's time for a new sanctioning organization, one that cares and communicates with its membership on a more consistent basis. One with leadership that's been around the sport for some period of time (I never did buy into that theory that a good salesman could sell anything, of course he can to some people. You need to know your product and audience).
See you Friday.
Don Kennedy (done commenting, lets hope and pray that Saturday proves me wrong).
| rallynutdon | 06-05-2003 08:59 AM |
Lest someone take what I've been saying the wrong way and spread incorrect rumors. I AM NOT SAYING THAT SCCA SHOULD HAVE DONE NOTHING DIFFERENT (ie. done nothing) CONCERNING SPECTATORS. It's the sudden, drastic, untried, knee jerk changes without any information being supplied (very little communication) and (apparently?) no input being solicited. And don't tell me to wait till Saturday morning. If it's that important, it needs to be in writing in detail, not verbalized in a meeting to be heard and interpreted differently or only portions to be heard by some people that are not paying attention.
Don Kennedy
Don Kennedy
| rallynutdon | 06-09-2003 10:06 AM |
I was proven wrong. I'll eat the crow. BUT, the SCCA did not absolutely with out a shadow of a doubt enforce the 'absolutely no spectators other than in offical locations" rule. I was way too busy driving to notice whether or not the various people had banner tape wrapped around them (as we were told at the drivers meeting would be the case for anyone outside the spectator locations that was okay). There were many (not as many as previous years) people in groups of 5-10 in various locations throughout the event. All were in safe locations. It was odd to see several good hairpins where I know spectators were in previous years that were completely barren.
Now lets see what they do (and when) with club rallying, the real issue.
BTW, having emailed Steve Johnson and having gotten a return email from him, I had 4 conversations with him on Saturday, 1 initiated by me (because of the way they handled the drivers meeting) and 3 by him looking me up (along with one of the BOD members who I know somewhat personally). He/they are concerned but I still don't think they get the lack of communication. They don't understand that it's important to communicate periodically that they don't have any answers or information when it's a very timely issue like the cancellation of all club rallys.
Now lets see what they do (and when) with club rallying, the real issue.
BTW, having emailed Steve Johnson and having gotten a return email from him, I had 4 conversations with him on Saturday, 1 initiated by me (because of the way they handled the drivers meeting) and 3 by him looking me up (along with one of the BOD members who I know somewhat personally). He/they are concerned but I still don't think they get the lack of communication. They don't understand that it's important to communicate periodically that they don't have any answers or information when it's a very timely issue like the cancellation of all club rallys.
| jprowland | 06-09-2003 12:05 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallynutdon [/i]
[B]BTW, having emailed Steve Johnson and having gotten a return email from him, I had 4 conversations with him on Saturday, 1 initiated by me (because of the way they handled the drivers meeting) and 3 by him looking me up (along with one of the BOD members who I know somewhat personally). He/they are concerned but I still don't think they get the lack of communication. They don't understand that it's important to communicate periodically that they don't have any answers or information when it's a very timely issue like the cancellation of all club rallys. [/B][/QUOTE]
Who was the official who stood up at the awards ceremony and said that talks had begun to re-certify ClubRally? I don't know faces for any of those guys. Anyway, he also implied that there will be Club entries at Maine summer.
He also made the point that we should be complaining directly to them, not to the internet forums. But I agree that the communication has to be 2-way, a lot of us feel like we're talking to a brick wall. It doesn't have to be personal, just more frequent official statements regarding the things people are concerned with.
And I'll be sending these comments directly to them as well :)
--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
[url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url]
[B]BTW, having emailed Steve Johnson and having gotten a return email from him, I had 4 conversations with him on Saturday, 1 initiated by me (because of the way they handled the drivers meeting) and 3 by him looking me up (along with one of the BOD members who I know somewhat personally). He/they are concerned but I still don't think they get the lack of communication. They don't understand that it's important to communicate periodically that they don't have any answers or information when it's a very timely issue like the cancellation of all club rallys. [/B][/QUOTE]
Who was the official who stood up at the awards ceremony and said that talks had begun to re-certify ClubRally? I don't know faces for any of those guys. Anyway, he also implied that there will be Club entries at Maine summer.
He also made the point that we should be complaining directly to them, not to the internet forums. But I agree that the communication has to be 2-way, a lot of us feel like we're talking to a brick wall. It doesn't have to be personal, just more frequent official statements regarding the things people are concerned with.
And I'll be sending these comments directly to them as well :)
--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
[url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url]
| rallykeith | 06-09-2003 12:32 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jprowland [/i]
[B]
He also made the point that we should be complaining directly to them, not to the internet forums. But I agree that the communication has to be 2-way, a lot of us feel like we're talking to a brick wall. It doesn't have to be personal, just more frequent official statements regarding the things people are concerned with.
And I'll be sending these comments directly to them as well :)
--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
[url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly, to them! As we found out on two seperate occasions, don't waste your breathe with Spitzner. Twice when confronted by members of our team all he would say was things like "No Comment" or "ask Lyn." I was very unhappy with his attitude towards things and the way he seemed to want to take no responsibility or action.
So yes, we need to take out comments and suggestions straight up the ladder. We got very good response talking straight to Steve Johnson.
Keith
[B]
He also made the point that we should be complaining directly to them, not to the internet forums. But I agree that the communication has to be 2-way, a lot of us feel like we're talking to a brick wall. It doesn't have to be personal, just more frequent official statements regarding the things people are concerned with.
And I'll be sending these comments directly to them as well :)
--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
[url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly, to them! As we found out on two seperate occasions, don't waste your breathe with Spitzner. Twice when confronted by members of our team all he would say was things like "No Comment" or "ask Lyn." I was very unhappy with his attitude towards things and the way he seemed to want to take no responsibility or action.
So yes, we need to take out comments and suggestions straight up the ladder. We got very good response talking straight to Steve Johnson.
Keith
| Jens | 06-09-2003 12:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallykeith [/i]
[B]
Exactly, to them! As we found out on two seperate occasions, don't waste your breathe with Spitzner. Twice when confronted by members of our team all he would say was things like "No Comment" or "ask Lyn." I was very unhappy with his attitude towards things and the way he seemed to want to take no responsibility or action.
So yes, we need to take out comments and suggestions straight up the ladder. We got very good response talking straight to Steve Johnson.
Keith [/B][/QUOTE]
[B]
Exactly, to them! As we found out on two seperate occasions, don't waste your breathe with Spitzner. Twice when confronted by members of our team all he would say was things like "No Comment" or "ask Lyn." I was very unhappy with his attitude towards things and the way he seemed to want to take no responsibility or action.
So yes, we need to take out comments and suggestions straight up the ladder. We got very good response talking straight to Steve Johnson.
Keith [/B][/QUOTE]
| Jens | 06-09-2003 12:59 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallykeith [/i]
[B]
Exactly, to them! As we found out on two seperate occasions, don't waste your breathe with Spitzner. Twice when confronted by members of our team all he would say was things like "No Comment" or "ask Lyn." I was very unhappy with his attitude towards things and the way he seemed to want to take no responsibility or action.
So yes, we need to take out comments and suggestions straight up the ladder. We got very good response talking straight to Steve Johnson.
Keith [/B][/QUOTE]
I've seen this before..... Although people get all excited when someone from SCCA talks to them, I respectfully submit that most communications should be public. Private e-mails back and forth between individual competitors and SCCA perpetuate the secrecy that is a hallmark of ProRally since 1999.
[B]
Exactly, to them! As we found out on two seperate occasions, don't waste your breathe with Spitzner. Twice when confronted by members of our team all he would say was things like "No Comment" or "ask Lyn." I was very unhappy with his attitude towards things and the way he seemed to want to take no responsibility or action.
So yes, we need to take out comments and suggestions straight up the ladder. We got very good response talking straight to Steve Johnson.
Keith [/B][/QUOTE]
I've seen this before..... Although people get all excited when someone from SCCA talks to them, I respectfully submit that most communications should be public. Private e-mails back and forth between individual competitors and SCCA perpetuate the secrecy that is a hallmark of ProRally since 1999.
| johnfelstead | 06-10-2003 07:59 AM |
I just returned home from the Acropolis rally and thought i would check out this thread to see how things went etc.
I am in histerics here at the thought of rally drivers stopping on stage and flashing a red cross because they see a spectator, utterly absurd, way beyond belief, i have never heard of such a stupid, nieve rule/sugestion in my 20 odd years of rally spectating/competing.
I am glad the event went OK, but come on, who came up with that classic??
PMSL @ the SCCA :lol:
I am in histerics here at the thought of rally drivers stopping on stage and flashing a red cross because they see a spectator, utterly absurd, way beyond belief, i have never heard of such a stupid, nieve rule/sugestion in my 20 odd years of rally spectating/competing.
I am glad the event went OK, but come on, who came up with that classic??
PMSL @ the SCCA :lol:
| Jens | 06-10-2003 01:22 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]I just returned home from the Acropolis rally and thought i would check out this thread to see how things went etc.
I am in histerics here at the thought of rally drivers stopping on stage and flashing a red cross because they see a spectator, utterly absurd, way beyond belief, i have never heard of such a stupid, nieve rule/sugestion in my 20 odd years of rally spectating/competing.
I am glad the event went OK, but come on, who came up with that classic??
PMSL @ the SCCA :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
You can read more stuff about this lunacy on Special Stage and Rally-L.
But no one is admitting who came up with the rule.
[B]I just returned home from the Acropolis rally and thought i would check out this thread to see how things went etc.
I am in histerics here at the thought of rally drivers stopping on stage and flashing a red cross because they see a spectator, utterly absurd, way beyond belief, i have never heard of such a stupid, nieve rule/sugestion in my 20 odd years of rally spectating/competing.
I am glad the event went OK, but come on, who came up with that classic??
PMSL @ the SCCA :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
You can read more stuff about this lunacy on Special Stage and Rally-L.
But no one is admitting who came up with the rule.
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