| faceplate | 11-11-2003 10:10 AM |
Why were Loeb and Solberg so much faster than Makinen and McRae in GB
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That was what I kept wondering when I watched the Rally of Great Britain. What makes these young guys so fast? And why can't the "legends" hack it anymore? When watching the incar footage tommi and colin seem so much more aggressive. It looks like they are pushing so much harder. They are doing super fast opposite locks all over the place. Is this what makes them slower. Are Loeb and Solberg just smooth and less aggressive? Is that what makes them fast?
BTW anyone else notice how petter solberg drives with his mouth open. I find doing that helps me with autocross. I think that his secret. :)
BTW anyone else notice how petter solberg drives with his mouth open. I find doing that helps me with autocross. I think that his secret. :)
| grimlock | 11-11-2003 10:21 AM |
Opening your mouth makes your hearing a bit better. Every little bit helps. Panizzi tries to do the same thing with his eyes, but I don't think that works as well...
| Butt Dyno | 11-11-2003 10:22 AM |
Solberg has the piggies on his mirrors and Makinen doesn't :)
= 10 hp
-bd
= 10 hp
-bd
| zoomfactor | 11-11-2003 10:54 AM |
I think Nicky Grist touched on it when he spoke of [B]commitment.[/B] They just push harder. He mentioned Loeb, Solberg and Marco having something to prove vs. the former world champions who may choose to play it safe -- Burns comes to mind.
That said...how many DNFs were due to driver error vs. rally luck (equipment failure, tire choice, rocks, etc.)
That said...how many DNFs were due to driver error vs. rally luck (equipment failure, tire choice, rocks, etc.)
| rupertberr | 11-11-2003 10:58 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by grimlock [/i]
[B]Panizzi tries to do the same thing with his eyes, but I don't think that works as well... [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
[B]Panizzi tries to do the same thing with his eyes, but I don't think that works as well... [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
| RB5 Clone | 11-11-2003 11:21 AM |
committed
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One word reason, stated above:
commitment.
utter commitment. (OK, so that's 2 words)
Being 10 or 20 years younger doesn't hurt, either.
Young guys like Loeb and Petter are so lucky...they think that guys like Tommi and McRae are "normal" and then they go from there.
this is how generations advance
Dave G
"...embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
commitment.
utter commitment. (OK, so that's 2 words)
Being 10 or 20 years younger doesn't hurt, either.
Young guys like Loeb and Petter are so lucky...they think that guys like Tommi and McRae are "normal" and then they go from there.
this is how generations advance
Dave G
"...embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
| AustinTX | 11-11-2003 11:53 AM |
I think it's more than just commitment. In-car video of McRae is far more scary than video of Petter, Loeb or Makkinen. I think it's more about driving style and setup preference.
| Craig W | 11-11-2003 12:56 PM |
As for Petter driving w/ his mouth agape. Maybe he needs to have his tonsils removed. When I was a kid, I was a mouth breather until the tonsilectomy.
Actually, for Petter, its probably just due to the total concentration on driving that his jaw goes slack. Like a kid watching cartoons, totally in the zone.
For another driving style, check out Ford's Francois Duval. He drives w/ his tongue sticking out, shifting it left and right w/ the turns.
Then there's Gronholm's inability to blink during a run and Richard Burns' "scared kid suckin' on his water bottle" look...
Actually, for Petter, its probably just due to the total concentration on driving that his jaw goes slack. Like a kid watching cartoons, totally in the zone.
For another driving style, check out Ford's Francois Duval. He drives w/ his tongue sticking out, shifting it left and right w/ the turns.
Then there's Gronholm's inability to blink during a run and Richard Burns' "scared kid suckin' on his water bottle" look...
| Dussander | 11-11-2003 01:17 PM |
I think it was mostly just the fact that Tommi and Colin wanted to bring the car home so they didn't go all out. They didn't have a whole lot to prove and they saw Carlos' result from pushing. Petter HAD to beat Loeb.
IMO, Petter was TOO aggressive the first time he went through the tarmac section on gravel tires. I held my breath. I so wish Citroen would have let Loeb play.
IMO, Petter was TOO aggressive the first time he went through the tarmac section on gravel tires. I held my breath. I so wish Citroen would have let Loeb play.
| Tats | 11-11-2003 02:21 PM |
Any one else notice notice the decal on the front of Tommi's hood?
It said.
Makinen
World Rally Legend
Gotta like that!
Tats.
It said.
Makinen
World Rally Legend
Gotta like that!
Tats.
| ANZAC_1915 | 11-11-2003 03:58 PM |
I'm really glad SWRT gave Tommi a proper sendoff.
| RB5 Clone | 11-11-2003 04:52 PM |
gold = heavy stuff!
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Makinen would have been a whole lot faster if he wasn't wearing those groovy gold driving shoes....
| bemani | 11-11-2003 05:02 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Craig W [/i]
[B]Richard Burns' "scared kid suckin' on his water bottle" look... [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
[B]Richard Burns' "scared kid suckin' on his water bottle" look... [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
| Seeing StaRS | 11-11-2003 10:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Craig W [/i]
[B]Actually, for Petter, its probably just due to the total concentration on driving that his jaw goes slack. Like a kid watching cartoons, totally in the zone.
For another driving style, check out Ford's Francois Duval. He drives w/ his tongue sticking out, shifting it left and right w/ the turns.
Then there's Gronholm's inability to blink during a run and Richard Burns' "scared kid suckin' on his water bottle" look... [/B][/QUOTE]
Well done, well done
[B]Actually, for Petter, its probably just due to the total concentration on driving that his jaw goes slack. Like a kid watching cartoons, totally in the zone.
For another driving style, check out Ford's Francois Duval. He drives w/ his tongue sticking out, shifting it left and right w/ the turns.
Then there's Gronholm's inability to blink during a run and Richard Burns' "scared kid suckin' on his water bottle" look... [/B][/QUOTE]
Well done, well done
| AndyRoo | 11-11-2003 10:36 PM |
Or take a look at Francois Delecour if you want to see something really strange.
Would take balls of steel to codrive for him.
That being said, he is pretty damn exciting to watch!
Would take balls of steel to codrive for him.
That being said, he is pretty damn exciting to watch!
| Night Kid | 11-11-2003 11:07 PM |
haha, the Panizzi comment made me crack up for couple mintutes!! :lol:
| RebelINS | 11-12-2003 01:10 AM |
Colin had to finish (instead of wreck), because Citroen needed manufacturer points, so I am sure he couldn't push quite as hard as he would have liked
-Wes
-Wes
| Rattler | 11-12-2003 02:14 AM |
[QUOTE]Or take a look at Francois Delecour if you want to see something really strange.[/QUOTE]
I think it was GB last year where Franky's co-driver gave him wrong directions and he crashed. He then got so pissed off and was yelling at him in French. He then threw his helmet at his feet. One of the funniest videos on wrc.com. I still get a chuckle out of it.:lol: :lol: :lol:
I think it was GB last year where Franky's co-driver gave him wrong directions and he crashed. He then got so pissed off and was yelling at him in French. He then threw his helmet at his feet. One of the funniest videos on wrc.com. I still get a chuckle out of it.:lol: :lol: :lol:
| ProRallyEric | 11-12-2003 03:35 AM |
The young guys haven't been programed with what-ifs.
Therefore they have more positive subconscious reactions.
The millisecond Colin has a negative thought, he's lost the flow.
I think this year has been full of WHAT IF'S for Collin :(
The power of positive reaction is huge in everything we do.
That being said, you must have the talent and not just be fooling yourself.
My favorite Colin Quote "you've got to be confident".
Use the force:D
Rally On!!! Eric Eaton
[url]http://franticfour.com/[/url]
Therefore they have more positive subconscious reactions.
The millisecond Colin has a negative thought, he's lost the flow.
I think this year has been full of WHAT IF'S for Collin :(
The power of positive reaction is huge in everything we do.
That being said, you must have the talent and not just be fooling yourself.
My favorite Colin Quote "you've got to be confident".
Use the force:D
Rally On!!! Eric Eaton
[url]http://franticfour.com/[/url]
| BriDrive | 11-12-2003 02:06 PM |
I agree w/ Eric. I also think that the flow diminishes w/ age. A great comparison is F1. F1 is also what I would describe as frenetic/intense/physically demanding from the cockpit. The ability to flow in these environments is what sets the drivers apart, taking car differences out of the eqation. Age has a way of slowing down the flow, kinda like a clogged artery.
| nhibbert | 11-12-2003 03:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BriDrive [/i]
[B]I agree w/ Eric. I also think that the flow diminishes w/ age. A great comparison is F1. F1 is also what I would describe as frenetic/intense/physically demanding from the cockpit. The ability to flow in these environments is what sets the drivers apart, taking car differences out of the eqation. Age has a way of slowing down the flow, kinda like a clogged artery. [/B][/QUOTE]
There is a theory that every great invention and idea has initially come from the mind of someone less than 30, although it may take that person decades to get their invention or idea publicized (i.e. Einstein was 26 when he first published his theory of relativity in 1905). Basically, this means that your mind is the quickest (not the wisest) when you are younger, and slows with age. I believe, Petter and Loeb are currently in that sweet spot where they have the quick minds and reaction times, and also the level of experience and maturity needed to win.
[B]I agree w/ Eric. I also think that the flow diminishes w/ age. A great comparison is F1. F1 is also what I would describe as frenetic/intense/physically demanding from the cockpit. The ability to flow in these environments is what sets the drivers apart, taking car differences out of the eqation. Age has a way of slowing down the flow, kinda like a clogged artery. [/B][/QUOTE]
There is a theory that every great invention and idea has initially come from the mind of someone less than 30, although it may take that person decades to get their invention or idea publicized (i.e. Einstein was 26 when he first published his theory of relativity in 1905). Basically, this means that your mind is the quickest (not the wisest) when you are younger, and slows with age. I believe, Petter and Loeb are currently in that sweet spot where they have the quick minds and reaction times, and also the level of experience and maturity needed to win.
| Kitsune | 11-12-2003 03:35 PM |
Then why was Sainz so much more competative then McRae and Tommi this year? He's older and has had plenty of moments that would make most people think twice. True, he messed up and put it into the ditch in GB, but that has happened to Leob and Solberg this year as well. I do not think youth is the deciding factor in performance, but perhaps more so the way people emphasive youth that puts more pressure on the older drivers to perform.
| rally_wannabe | 11-12-2003 03:41 PM |
I wonder how each crash affects your driving.
I have a theory that each crash will slow you down. Colin and Tommi both had some HELACIOUS crashes in the last couple of years.
Loeb seemed a little shaken by that off in corsica.
I have a theory that each crash will slow you down. Colin and Tommi both had some HELACIOUS crashes in the last couple of years.
Loeb seemed a little shaken by that off in corsica.
| grimlock | 11-12-2003 03:49 PM |
Tommi stopped pushing hard after Corsica. I think he realized how close he and Risto came to dying, and just couldn't push it that hard any more.
| rally_wannabe | 11-12-2003 03:53 PM |
yeah the one caught by the fan's camera where the car went end over end 5 times.
that's one of the ones I was thinking of.
that's one of the ones I was thinking of.
| RB5 Clone | 11-12-2003 04:06 PM |
Wrecks not necessarily slow u down
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If wrecks slowed down rally drivers, then McRae would drive nothing faster than a lawn tractor. He has crashed a whole parking lot full of rally cars over his 20-year career.
Makinen too, Sainz, Burns, Petter et al. When you drive on the absolute edge, you will inevitably fall off it sooner or later.
Not to say that WRC drivers are stupid fearless. Rally GB in-car coverage of Loeb on one insanely fast tarmac stage (that they had to run on squishy gravel tires) showed him VERY wide-eyed, and he even let go of the wheel to cinch down his belts while at speed! Very sensible young fella....
Ciao for now,
Dave G
"...embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
Makinen too, Sainz, Burns, Petter et al. When you drive on the absolute edge, you will inevitably fall off it sooner or later.
Not to say that WRC drivers are stupid fearless. Rally GB in-car coverage of Loeb on one insanely fast tarmac stage (that they had to run on squishy gravel tires) showed him VERY wide-eyed, and he even let go of the wheel to cinch down his belts while at speed! Very sensible young fella....
Ciao for now,
Dave G
"...embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
| Butt Dyno | 11-12-2003 04:21 PM |
Re: Wrecks not necessarily slow u down
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RB5 Clone [/i]
[B]If wrecks slowed down rally drivers, then McRae would drive nothing faster than a lawn tractor.
[/b][/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
[B]If wrecks slowed down rally drivers, then McRae would drive nothing faster than a lawn tractor.
[/b][/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
| Skyline | 11-12-2003 10:33 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rally_wannabe [/i]
[B]yeah the one caught by the fan's camera where the car went end over end 5 times.
that's one of the ones I was thinking of. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually no. The accident that slowed Tommi was when Tommi and Risto were with Mitsubishi and the car was on the roof and nearly off the cliff. Risto had a broken back and never returned to the car. The big endo crash was with Subaru and Kaj Lindstrom at the 2002 Rally Argentina. That was pretty scary too, though.
[B]yeah the one caught by the fan's camera where the car went end over end 5 times.
that's one of the ones I was thinking of. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually no. The accident that slowed Tommi was when Tommi and Risto were with Mitsubishi and the car was on the roof and nearly off the cliff. Risto had a broken back and never returned to the car. The big endo crash was with Subaru and Kaj Lindstrom at the 2002 Rally Argentina. That was pretty scary too, though.
| GravelRash | 11-13-2003 12:03 AM |
Finest aileron roll I've ever seen w/o using an aircraft :banana: :lol:
And if that tree hadn't been there they might have made it an even dozen rolls...probably a record, at least for not a scratch on either of them. Hmmm...maybe 9 is a record anyway :p
And if that tree hadn't been there they might have made it an even dozen rolls...probably a record, at least for not a scratch on either of them. Hmmm...maybe 9 is a record anyway :p
| rally_wannabe | 11-13-2003 12:16 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Skyline[/i]
[B] Actually no. The accident that slowed Tommi was when Tommi and Risto were with Mitsubishi and the car was on the roof and nearly off the cliff. Risto had a broken back and never returned to the car. The big endo crash was with Subaru and Kaj Lindstrom at the 2002 Rally Argentina. That was pretty scary too, though. [/B][/QUOTE]
shows i really know what i'm talking about.
:lol:
[B] Actually no. The accident that slowed Tommi was when Tommi and Risto were with Mitsubishi and the car was on the roof and nearly off the cliff. Risto had a broken back and never returned to the car. The big endo crash was with Subaru and Kaj Lindstrom at the 2002 Rally Argentina. That was pretty scary too, though. [/B][/QUOTE]
shows i really know what i'm talking about.
:lol:
| Rattler | 11-13-2003 12:29 AM |
What was the roll count on that one? I think I had 7.5 on it. I give it a 10 no matter what. His asphalt crash was enough to scare the poo out of anyone though. That would have been a long fall had he gone over the side.
The guy with the camera standing ther better have bought a lottery ticket after that too. At least clean undies.
The guy with the camera standing ther better have bought a lottery ticket after that too. At least clean undies.
| nhibbert | 11-13-2003 09:56 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kitsune[/i]
[B] Then why was Sainz so much more competative then McRae and Tommi this year? [/B][/QUOTE]
It a theory, not a fact.
Maybe Sainz takes his Vitamin B's or eats more fish.
[B] Then why was Sainz so much more competative then McRae and Tommi this year? [/B][/QUOTE]
It a theory, not a fact.
Maybe Sainz takes his Vitamin B's or eats more fish.
| BriDrive | 11-13-2003 04:32 PM |
Or maybe there's a vast combination of variables to consider which make pointing to any one thing somewhat academic...
| GravelRash | 11-13-2003 11:52 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Rattler [/i]
[B]What was the roll count on that one? I think I had 7.5 on it. I give it a 10 no matter what. His asphalt crash was enough to scare the poo out of anyone though. That would have been a long fall had he gone over the side.
The guy with the camera standing ther better have bought a lottery ticket after that too. At least clean undies. [/B][/QUOTE]
Pretty sure it was 9 revs. (I could dig out the tape and count...but I haven't caught up with this year's crop yet!)
[B]What was the roll count on that one? I think I had 7.5 on it. I give it a 10 no matter what. His asphalt crash was enough to scare the poo out of anyone though. That would have been a long fall had he gone over the side.
The guy with the camera standing ther better have bought a lottery ticket after that too. At least clean undies. [/B][/QUOTE]
Pretty sure it was 9 revs. (I could dig out the tape and count...but I haven't caught up with this year's crop yet!)
| rexxer | 11-14-2003 12:09 PM |
On the original question... I think a better question would be "why were Tommy and Colin so close to Petter and Sebastion(sp?)?" If you look at most rallies of the season, Tommy and Colin were way down the leaderboard... the reason they were as close as they were to the top 2 was because everybody else in the middle was out of the race. I don't want to take anything away from the two veterans, but it's way easier to place higher when all of your competition drops out... BTW... Best rally I've seen in a long time!
| Rattler | 11-14-2003 06:01 PM |
I think Guy Frequilen(?) from Citreon changed the team orders on Sunday to make himself look a little better. Too little too late though.
I would go along with the idea that none of the fast young guns have had the really nasty wrecks that Colin & Tommi have had. Thats in the backs of their minds slowing them down.
I would go along with the idea that none of the fast young guns have had the really nasty wrecks that Colin & Tommi have had. Thats in the backs of their minds slowing them down.
| GravelRash | 11-16-2003 03:34 AM |
Carlos has had his share too...Australia in a Celica a few years back comes to mind. That one rivaled Tommi's for number of rotations, if not height :)
Who knows whether it slows him down...he had a pretty impressive year.
Who knows whether it slows him down...he had a pretty impressive year.
| RB5 Clone | 11-16-2003 09:16 PM |
back to original question
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Though Tommi and McRae have not had the best season this year, they were flyin at Rally GB for one primary reason...
they were freakin PSYCHED to be spanking their cars and having a ball.
I think maybe the fun element makes a huge difference. If you're having a blast, it probably means you're going fast.
Cheers
Dave G
they were freakin PSYCHED to be spanking their cars and having a ball.
I think maybe the fun element makes a huge difference. If you're having a blast, it probably means you're going fast.
Cheers
Dave G
| Redleader | 11-16-2003 09:24 PM |
[QUOTE]The big endo crash was with Subaru and Kaj Lindstrom at the 2002 Rally Argentina.[/QUOTE]
And he had been one of the leaders up till that rally. After that he has never been the same IMHO.:D I still like him though and wish him the best!
Mitch:devil:
And he had been one of the leaders up till that rally. After that he has never been the same IMHO.:D I still like him though and wish him the best!
Mitch:devil:
| Orson | 11-17-2003 09:37 AM |
One word: electronics.
Modern rally cars have so many electronic controllers, that it is more like driving a computer than a car. A computer-controlled vehicle system almost always works better with smooth inputs. As was described above, old-timers like Colin and Tommi are used to the throw-into-a-corner-hard style of driving where modern electronic cars require a smoother approach. Loeb and Solberg are clearly smoother according to in-car footage.
I design automotive electronic control software for a living and I can attest to this: non-changing or smooth driver inputs always make for an easier job. It is the sudden inputs and jerks in motion that are a total bugger to deal with. One inevitably spends 90% of the time engineering these situations and dealing with these situations always compromises the smooth/steady-state situations.
I don't believe age is the factor here. Gilles and Marcus are really old by any standard of any sport. Marcus showed complete superiority over Burns in the 2002 season despite being older and being in the same car. I remember Burns commenting once that the Peugeot was strange, that he almost had to "drive slow" in order to go fast. My translation: he had to learn to drive smooth, something that Marcus had already figured out from previous years.
Modern rally cars have so many electronic controllers, that it is more like driving a computer than a car. A computer-controlled vehicle system almost always works better with smooth inputs. As was described above, old-timers like Colin and Tommi are used to the throw-into-a-corner-hard style of driving where modern electronic cars require a smoother approach. Loeb and Solberg are clearly smoother according to in-car footage.
I design automotive electronic control software for a living and I can attest to this: non-changing or smooth driver inputs always make for an easier job. It is the sudden inputs and jerks in motion that are a total bugger to deal with. One inevitably spends 90% of the time engineering these situations and dealing with these situations always compromises the smooth/steady-state situations.
I don't believe age is the factor here. Gilles and Marcus are really old by any standard of any sport. Marcus showed complete superiority over Burns in the 2002 season despite being older and being in the same car. I remember Burns commenting once that the Peugeot was strange, that he almost had to "drive slow" in order to go fast. My translation: he had to learn to drive smooth, something that Marcus had already figured out from previous years.
| jprowland | 11-20-2003 12:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orson [/i]
[B]One word: electronics.
Modern rally cars have so many electronic controllers, that it is more like driving a computer than a car. A computer-controlled vehicle system almost always works better with smooth inputs. As was described above, old-timers like Colin and Tommi are used to the throw-into-a-corner-hard style of driving where modern electronic cars require a smoother approach. Loeb and Solberg are clearly smoother according to in-car footage. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep...the new cars all have actives diffs and are meant to be driven with just a hint of understeer. The young guys are driving them the way they're programmed to be driven.
--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Co-driver, SCCA ProRally
Visit my boring web page: [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url]
[B]One word: electronics.
Modern rally cars have so many electronic controllers, that it is more like driving a computer than a car. A computer-controlled vehicle system almost always works better with smooth inputs. As was described above, old-timers like Colin and Tommi are used to the throw-into-a-corner-hard style of driving where modern electronic cars require a smoother approach. Loeb and Solberg are clearly smoother according to in-car footage. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep...the new cars all have actives diffs and are meant to be driven with just a hint of understeer. The young guys are driving them the way they're programmed to be driven.
--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Co-driver, SCCA ProRally
Visit my boring web page: [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url]
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