| MattNJ2.8 | 05-11-2005 10:38 PM |
Limited Slip Differential
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I'm thinking about demodding my car back to Stg II and dumping the proceeds of my PnP VF24 and STi injectors into something more "back to basics" by improving handling.
I am considering a LSF- either Kaaz, Quaife, or Cusco for the front of my '04 WRX.
Current mods to the suspension - KYB AGX, Eibach springs, Helix 22mm rear w/Whiteline endlinks both front and rear, 24-26mm adjustable front bar (on order), and Whiteline rack bushings.
I autocross my car regularly and also track it a few times per year. It will shortly no longer be my daily driver.
Would a front LSD be a signifigant improvement for $700 -$900? I am looking for improved handling, improved autocrossing, and more fun on the street. [B]Would a front LSD be a signifigant improvement in the driveline to merit the cost? [/B]
I am considering a LSF- either Kaaz, Quaife, or Cusco for the front of my '04 WRX.
Current mods to the suspension - KYB AGX, Eibach springs, Helix 22mm rear w/Whiteline endlinks both front and rear, 24-26mm adjustable front bar (on order), and Whiteline rack bushings.
I autocross my car regularly and also track it a few times per year. It will shortly no longer be my daily driver.
Would a front LSD be a signifigant improvement for $700 -$900? I am looking for improved handling, improved autocrossing, and more fun on the street. [B]Would a front LSD be a signifigant improvement in the driveline to merit the cost? [/B]
| DrBiggly | 05-11-2005 10:49 PM |
If I could change only 1 diff in a WRX it would be the center; I'd go from 50/50 to 35/65 like the STi. I'd have to let someone else chime in on whether or not the front diff would make a bigger difference in the direction you'd want to go (pun intended) but my vote would be for that one first. :)
-Biggly
-Biggly
| scooby-stu | 05-11-2005 10:59 PM |
As for front LSD can only vouch for the one i have on my JDM 6 speed. It feels way more controlled in the wet and on dirt.
I'm sure you would experience the same benifits. As for auto-x i wouldn't know
I'm sure you would experience the same benifits. As for auto-x i wouldn't know
| makofoto | 05-11-2005 11:00 PM |
I added a jdm STI helical Torsen2 type front LSD to my '03 WRX. I suppose you realize that adding a LSD puts you into Street Modified ... where the most important go fast item is S05 Hoosiers or 710 Kuhmos at $1,000 a set, ie. about $12 added cost PER autocross run!
The LSD certainly helps ... but one still has to be judicious in applying power coming out of corners. Best R compounds = 2 seconds on a 60 second course. LSD, perhaps 1 second ...
The LSD certainly helps ... but one still has to be judicious in applying power coming out of corners. Best R compounds = 2 seconds on a 60 second course. LSD, perhaps 1 second ...
| EHK | 05-11-2005 11:01 PM |
In my opinion the front diff would be the most noticable improvement, and a top-of-the-list mod for autocross and track driving. Go for it.
edit- tires an already must have item... front LSD vs. open diff, no question LSD is better. SM is fine, have fun.
Eric
edit- tires an already must have item... front LSD vs. open diff, no question LSD is better. SM is fine, have fun.
Eric
| N'CTRL | 05-11-2005 11:09 PM |
Being that he currently auto-x's his stage 4 WRX, I think he knows what SM is like.
I've heard mixed opinions on the addition of a front diff into the WRX. While it does add grip, you are adding it to the front of the car, thus aiding understeer. It will take a few auto-x's to learn to rotate the car again. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.
I've heard mixed opinions on the addition of a front diff into the WRX. While it does add grip, you are adding it to the front of the car, thus aiding understeer. It will take a few auto-x's to learn to rotate the car again. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.
| afpdl | 05-11-2005 11:25 PM |
[QUOTE=N'CTRL] While it does add grip, you are adding it to the front of the car, thus aiding understeer. [/QUOTE]
That goes against the definition of understeer.
That goes against the definition of understeer.
| makofoto | 05-11-2005 11:40 PM |
Problem with the center diff ... is that sending 65% of the power through the rear will burn out the oem rear diff. I know someone who did that ...
... and changing the rear diff is very expensive ... involving changing the whole rear end, including brakes (right?).
Our local STS Champ Eric Sung (Motonishi doesn't bother with all of the local events ... but Eric actually beat Ken a few times head to head!) is going through this process ... changing all three diffs to make a DSP Impreza.
... and changing the rear diff is very expensive ... involving changing the whole rear end, including brakes (right?).
Our local STS Champ Eric Sung (Motonishi doesn't bother with all of the local events ... but Eric actually beat Ken a few times head to head!) is going through this process ... changing all three diffs to make a DSP Impreza.
| Jsortor | 05-12-2005 12:23 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Problem with the center diff ... is that sending 65% of the power through the rear will burn out the oem rear diff. I know someone who did that ...
... and changing the rear diff is very expensive ... involving changing the whole rear end, including brakes (right?).
Our local STS Champ Eric Sung (Motonishi doesn't bother with all of the local events ... but Eric actually beat Ken a few times head to head!) is going through this process ... changing all three diffs to make a DSP Impreza.[/QUOTE]
Why does the change in the center diff burn out the rear diff any more than normal? F-ing viscous diffs! :mad: Can you change the fluid out on these things? Is there such a thing as a "thicker" fluid I wonder.....
... and changing the rear diff is very expensive ... involving changing the whole rear end, including brakes (right?).
Our local STS Champ Eric Sung (Motonishi doesn't bother with all of the local events ... but Eric actually beat Ken a few times head to head!) is going through this process ... changing all three diffs to make a DSP Impreza.[/QUOTE]
Why does the change in the center diff burn out the rear diff any more than normal? F-ing viscous diffs! :mad: Can you change the fluid out on these things? Is there such a thing as a "thicker" fluid I wonder.....
| TheWRX | 05-12-2005 01:47 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]I suppose you realize that adding a LSD puts you into Street Modified ...[/QUOTE]
You can also change differentials in SP.
You can also change differentials in SP.
| Storm | 05-12-2005 01:55 AM |
The diffs alone only put you into SP.....In SM, you may stay at your same level of competitiveness with the loss of power, but the ability to use more of it.
[QUOTE=N'CTRL]Being that he currently auto-x's his stage 4 WRX, I think he knows what SM is like.
I've heard mixed opinions on the addition of a front diff into the WRX. While it does add grip, you are adding it to the front of the car, thus aiding understeer. It will take a few auto-x's to learn to rotate the car again. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.[/QUOTE]I'll correct you...you're wrong. The front diff is going to make a huge difference....a good difference too. You will notice the car will bite harder on entry and continue to bite as you roll on the power. Talk to SMR about their findings as they added diffs.
Josh....I've often wondered if there was a way to change the fluid in the "sealed" center diff. They had to get the fluid in there somehow....I'm thinking of a small hole drilled and tapped for a drain/fill point and plug it. Only problem is they're a bit pricy to get ahold of and experiment with.
Jay Storm
[QUOTE=N'CTRL]Being that he currently auto-x's his stage 4 WRX, I think he knows what SM is like.
I've heard mixed opinions on the addition of a front diff into the WRX. While it does add grip, you are adding it to the front of the car, thus aiding understeer. It will take a few auto-x's to learn to rotate the car again. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.[/QUOTE]I'll correct you...you're wrong. The front diff is going to make a huge difference....a good difference too. You will notice the car will bite harder on entry and continue to bite as you roll on the power. Talk to SMR about their findings as they added diffs.
Josh....I've often wondered if there was a way to change the fluid in the "sealed" center diff. They had to get the fluid in there somehow....I'm thinking of a small hole drilled and tapped for a drain/fill point and plug it. Only problem is they're a bit pricy to get ahold of and experiment with.
Jay Storm
| XT6Wagon | 05-12-2005 03:31 AM |
So run a rear diff cooler in SM. Sure it adds wieght but...
| MattNJ2.8 | 05-12-2005 09:00 AM |
Some more info: I have autocrossed with NNJR SCCA, but usually I Auto-X with other local clubs: NASA and M-Club- with much more open rule sets regarding mods- so I'm less concerned about SCCA rules.
It sounds like a front diff would make a big difference, and be more fun.
[B]Which brand?[/B] There is a several hundred dollar price difference- Kaaz, Quaife, and Cusco all claim great benefits.
I wonder if I can install this myself- sounds like a PITA.
It sounds like a front diff would make a big difference, and be more fun.
[B]Which brand?[/B] There is a several hundred dollar price difference- Kaaz, Quaife, and Cusco all claim great benefits.
I wonder if I can install this myself- sounds like a PITA.
| dwx | 05-12-2005 09:11 AM |
You can't change the viscous fluid, it's some nasty stuff.
If you changed to a 35/65 center you would need a better rear LSD, the stock viscous one isn't up to the task.
I contemplated the Cusco tarmac gear diff for this year, but I felt I'd need to upgrade the rear diff to a R180 and I didn't want to do it. Ideally an EMCD with an aftermarket controller would be the best center diff to have for autocross (or anything really) but that's $$$. That would also give you the 35F/65R split but it would be mappable and be a true LSD.
Instead I'm just replacing my bad 6MT center with another stock one. I found one on ebay from australia for $79 plus $60 shipping.
On a 5MT car with enough power to spin the wheels on corner exit I think a Quaife front diff is probably the most useful diff to get.
If you changed to a 35/65 center you would need a better rear LSD, the stock viscous one isn't up to the task.
I contemplated the Cusco tarmac gear diff for this year, but I felt I'd need to upgrade the rear diff to a R180 and I didn't want to do it. Ideally an EMCD with an aftermarket controller would be the best center diff to have for autocross (or anything really) but that's $$$. That would also give you the 35F/65R split but it would be mappable and be a true LSD.
Instead I'm just replacing my bad 6MT center with another stock one. I found one on ebay from australia for $79 plus $60 shipping.
On a 5MT car with enough power to spin the wheels on corner exit I think a Quaife front diff is probably the most useful diff to get.
| orthikon | 05-12-2005 11:19 AM |
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]24-26mm adjustable front bar (on order)[/B][/QUOTE]
kinda off topic but where did you order this?
kinda off topic but where did you order this?
| makofoto | 05-12-2005 11:30 AM |
The jdm Helical STI front LSD is essentially the same as the Quaife ... just cheaper ... order it from RalliSpec.
Much better then the early SureTrak STI front LSD's ...
I wouldn't do the install myself ... you have to split the gear box open, etc.
Much better then the early SureTrak STI front LSD's ...
I wouldn't do the install myself ... you have to split the gear box open, etc.
| Scoobyslack1 | 05-12-2005 12:37 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]The jdm Helical STI front LSD is essentially the same as the Quaife ... just cheaper ... order it from RalliSpec.
[/QUOTE]
I have an STI helical front LSD in my car(from Rallispec)....it pulls so hard out of the corners now. It's hard to tell if it's completely the front since I put the STi 20kg center in at the same time.
You can get on the gas much earlier in a corner than before. :banana:
[/QUOTE]
I have an STI helical front LSD in my car(from Rallispec)....it pulls so hard out of the corners now. It's hard to tell if it's completely the front since I put the STi 20kg center in at the same time.
You can get on the gas much earlier in a corner than before. :banana:
| Chaste Automotive | 05-12-2005 12:43 PM |
Here is my .02, if you drive tarmac get a Quaife over a Kaaz or STi plate type differentials since it is a more progressive diff response which most people (and I mean most people not everyone) prefers this set up on their car. For instance for 2005 in the STi the ychanged the front diff from plated to gear type while for gravel they swap them back.
| chudlo | 05-12-2005 01:43 PM |
I had a Cusco 1 way put in at the same time that I got V.6 RA gears.
At first I could only test it on the street, and it was a BIG difference to me.
By the time I got to auto-x again I had done a complete susp change, but still believe that it makes a big difference in handleing, even taking into account the susp changes.
So I vote yes! :disco:
At first I could only test it on the street, and it was a BIG difference to me.
By the time I got to auto-x again I had done a complete susp change, but still believe that it makes a big difference in handleing, even taking into account the susp changes.
So I vote yes! :disco:
| speedyHAM | 05-12-2005 04:25 PM |
I wish I had the money for a LSD front diff. I'd definately go with the Quaife. The rally cars that I have ridden in (mostly DSM's and Evo's) that have had quaife differentials were so much better coming out of a corner than the same car without. Factory LSD's didn't seem to do nearly as much in the same type of cars.
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 05-12-2005 06:34 PM |
[QUOTE=dwx]I contemplated the Cusco tarmac gear diff for this year, but I felt I'd need to upgrade the rear diff to a R180 and I didn't want to do it.[/QUOTE]
Hello,
I'm not certain what the appropriate setup is, for using the Cusco tarmac gear. We used a Cusco tarmac for a short while but we found the fact that it is an open differential to be quite a problem. The cusco that we had was a typical spider gear arrangement, with two different cone sizes to create the torque difference. Since it was just a simple spider, it was completely open.
One race team I spoke with about differentials, however, reported to me that their Cusco tarmac was a planetary gear. They were under the impression that it was therefore an LSD differential. If it was a planetary, then there may be more than one version of the diff? I don't know. However, I do know that a planetary is not necessarily an LSD.
In a planetary gear, instead of a set of spiders, you have a hollow tube (ring gear) with a rod through it (sun gear) and 3 or 4 smaller gears between them (planetary gears). This, by itself, is not locking in any way. The planetary arrangement creates a torque difference because the radius of the ring gear is greater than that of the sun gear. The STi's DCCD is a planetary gear, for example. To make the planetary into an LSD, you need something coupling the ring and sun gears. In the DCCD, it's an electronically controlled clutch pack.
The 50:50 locked setting is when the sun and planetary are locked together. The 35:65 split on the DCCD is with the clutch pack open, allowing the normal sun-ring difference. Of course, it's more complicated than that because the DCCD is a full time LSD...
But the point is that a planetary gear is, by itself, open, just like a spider gear arrangement.
And in both cases, the Cusco Tarmac appears to be an open diff (we never discussed whether there was an additional package with that planetary diff to add LSD capability), which means if you get wheel spin, your rpms flare up and all power goes to the axle with the wheel spin. If you have a stock WRX with an open front, then you lose all forward power. If you have a viscous front and/or rear diff, then you will still get a large percent of the power going to the slipping wheel.
I suppose the Cusco would be okay if you had clutch type front and rear diffs, but I think those would be far better suited for a dirt car than a tarmac car, where Quaiffe / Torson types would be better.
Joel
Hello,
I'm not certain what the appropriate setup is, for using the Cusco tarmac gear. We used a Cusco tarmac for a short while but we found the fact that it is an open differential to be quite a problem. The cusco that we had was a typical spider gear arrangement, with two different cone sizes to create the torque difference. Since it was just a simple spider, it was completely open.
One race team I spoke with about differentials, however, reported to me that their Cusco tarmac was a planetary gear. They were under the impression that it was therefore an LSD differential. If it was a planetary, then there may be more than one version of the diff? I don't know. However, I do know that a planetary is not necessarily an LSD.
In a planetary gear, instead of a set of spiders, you have a hollow tube (ring gear) with a rod through it (sun gear) and 3 or 4 smaller gears between them (planetary gears). This, by itself, is not locking in any way. The planetary arrangement creates a torque difference because the radius of the ring gear is greater than that of the sun gear. The STi's DCCD is a planetary gear, for example. To make the planetary into an LSD, you need something coupling the ring and sun gears. In the DCCD, it's an electronically controlled clutch pack.
The 50:50 locked setting is when the sun and planetary are locked together. The 35:65 split on the DCCD is with the clutch pack open, allowing the normal sun-ring difference. Of course, it's more complicated than that because the DCCD is a full time LSD...
But the point is that a planetary gear is, by itself, open, just like a spider gear arrangement.
And in both cases, the Cusco Tarmac appears to be an open diff (we never discussed whether there was an additional package with that planetary diff to add LSD capability), which means if you get wheel spin, your rpms flare up and all power goes to the axle with the wheel spin. If you have a stock WRX with an open front, then you lose all forward power. If you have a viscous front and/or rear diff, then you will still get a large percent of the power going to the slipping wheel.
I suppose the Cusco would be okay if you had clutch type front and rear diffs, but I think those would be far better suited for a dirt car than a tarmac car, where Quaiffe / Torson types would be better.
Joel
| dwx | 05-12-2005 06:54 PM |
I was aware that it was an open diff. You can talk to the folks at Nakube Auto (US importer for Cusco) about it. They will tell you the diff cannot be used without better front and rear LSDs, and are happy to sell you some. :) I'm using both a front and rear LSD (Cusco 1-way front and Kaaz 1.5 rear). There is both a 5MT and 6MT version of the diff but I don't know if there are mechanical differences between the two. The Cusco 1-way should act more like a torsen diff as it only locks under power. The Kaaz I ran last year wasn't so bad on high speed corners but low speed or tight corners it's not great, I'd rather have an open or torsen diff. I don't really know of anyone who makes one for the R160. I really got it to help on wheelspin when lifting the inside rear wheel in corners, and it worked great for that.
My issue with the Tarmac gear was sending 65% of the power to the rear would not be great on the longevity of the R160, as the car will be running 375-400whp.
Off-topic Joel but how the hell do you remove the axle from one side of the Kaaz LSD? Is there a strong ring in there or something?
My issue with the Tarmac gear was sending 65% of the power to the rear would not be great on the longevity of the R160, as the car will be running 375-400whp.
Off-topic Joel but how the hell do you remove the axle from one side of the Kaaz LSD? Is there a strong ring in there or something?
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 05-12-2005 07:23 PM |
[QUOTE=dwx]I was aware that it was an open diff.[/quote]
Hello,
Okay, just wanted to be clear because every once in a while, even race teams assume it's an LSD. It's possibly a great diff, but you need the right setup. Switching the front to a torsen/quaiffe type makes a miracle of a change to the car.
[quote=dwx]My issue with the Tarmac gear was sending 65% of the power to the rear would not be great on the longevity of the R160, as the car will be running 375-400whp.[/quote]
I don't know about this, but, it seems strange to me. Have people (aside from drag racers) blown the R160 diffs? They're pretty strong and 400 whp (say at 5200 rpms, less if it's higher rpms) is a mere (400 x 0.65) 260 ft-lbs torque. There are plenty of 240s and other Nissan RWDs that run more torque than that, using the R160. I've also seen Subarus pushing that kind of power and never hurting their R160s...
[quote=dwx]Off-topic Joel but how the hell do you remove the axle from one side of the Kaaz LSD? Is there a strong ring in there or something?[/QUOTE]
Erk. Seriously, I've long forgotten what the inside of a Kaaz looks like. I know the Quaiffes have (or had, a few years ago) two snap-ring detents. It took a while to figure out why the axle wouldn't come out or go in nicely. [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3625998&post3625998]See this post.[/URL] If some force doesn't work, pop the rear cover off the diff housing and sneak a peek in there and see if there are any snap rings or c-clips or whatever. You can grab a ring or clip with a needle nose or thin screw driver and pull it up.
Joel
Hello,
Okay, just wanted to be clear because every once in a while, even race teams assume it's an LSD. It's possibly a great diff, but you need the right setup. Switching the front to a torsen/quaiffe type makes a miracle of a change to the car.
[quote=dwx]My issue with the Tarmac gear was sending 65% of the power to the rear would not be great on the longevity of the R160, as the car will be running 375-400whp.[/quote]
I don't know about this, but, it seems strange to me. Have people (aside from drag racers) blown the R160 diffs? They're pretty strong and 400 whp (say at 5200 rpms, less if it's higher rpms) is a mere (400 x 0.65) 260 ft-lbs torque. There are plenty of 240s and other Nissan RWDs that run more torque than that, using the R160. I've also seen Subarus pushing that kind of power and never hurting their R160s...
[quote=dwx]Off-topic Joel but how the hell do you remove the axle from one side of the Kaaz LSD? Is there a strong ring in there or something?[/QUOTE]
Erk. Seriously, I've long forgotten what the inside of a Kaaz looks like. I know the Quaiffes have (or had, a few years ago) two snap-ring detents. It took a while to figure out why the axle wouldn't come out or go in nicely. [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3625998&post3625998]See this post.[/URL] If some force doesn't work, pop the rear cover off the diff housing and sneak a peek in there and see if there are any snap rings or c-clips or whatever. You can grab a ring or clip with a needle nose or thin screw driver and pull it up.
Joel
| makofoto | 05-12-2005 07:41 PM |
Has anyone changed their suspension set-up to keep the rear inside wheel on the ground ... so that one can get power to the ground with a rear LSD!
Obviously one needs to go softer on the rear sway bar ... but use stiffer springs ?
Also ... can anyone report on the differences between using the oem center WRX diff and the 20 kg center ... in Autocross. How worthwhile is this mod ...
Obviously one needs to go softer on the rear sway bar ... but use stiffer springs ?
Also ... can anyone report on the differences between using the oem center WRX diff and the 20 kg center ... in Autocross. How worthwhile is this mod ...
| MattNJ2.8 | 05-12-2005 08:36 PM |
[url]http://www.gruppe-s.com/Subaru/subtrn.htm[/url]
Down the page are four examples of the Kaaz and Cusco LSDs they sell. Is it more beneficial to pony up for a Quaife?
The key, for my original question is to keep it simple and cost effective.
Anybody have an idea what a Quaife front LSD and install should cost?
Down the page are four examples of the Kaaz and Cusco LSDs they sell. Is it more beneficial to pony up for a Quaife?
The key, for my original question is to keep it simple and cost effective.
Anybody have an idea what a Quaife front LSD and install should cost?
| makofoto | 05-12-2005 09:25 PM |
So why not get the JDM Spec C STI Helical Torsen2 ... from RalliSpec ... basically the same as the Quaife ... but cheaper.
It costs about $700 to install a front LSD, together with a new clutch and lightened flywheel ... which you might as well do at the same time ... if you anyway think you are going to need a new clutch in the relatively near future ....
It costs about $700 to install a front LSD, together with a new clutch and lightened flywheel ... which you might as well do at the same time ... if you anyway think you are going to need a new clutch in the relatively near future ....
| Storm | 05-12-2005 09:45 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Has anyone changed their suspension set-up to keep the rear inside wheel on the ground ... so that one can get power to the ground with a rear LSD!
Obviously one needs to go softer on the rear sway bar ... but use stiffer springs ?[/QUOTE] Some folks are running no rear bar with uberstiff springs. Not sure what they're running up front to control the roll though. We're taking a different approach. Somewhat similar to the SMR setup that they liked so much. Quaife up front and clutch type rear. Our springs are middle of the road stiffness and bars will be a bit bigger than most are running. [QUOTE]Also ... can anyone report on the differences between using the oem center WRX diff and the 20 kg center ... in Autocross. How worthwhile is this mod ...[/QUOTE]We haven't decided to change the center diff yet....but may do that if the new setup provides the results we think it will.
Jay Storm
Obviously one needs to go softer on the rear sway bar ... but use stiffer springs ?[/QUOTE] Some folks are running no rear bar with uberstiff springs. Not sure what they're running up front to control the roll though. We're taking a different approach. Somewhat similar to the SMR setup that they liked so much. Quaife up front and clutch type rear. Our springs are middle of the road stiffness and bars will be a bit bigger than most are running. [QUOTE]Also ... can anyone report on the differences between using the oem center WRX diff and the 20 kg center ... in Autocross. How worthwhile is this mod ...[/QUOTE]We haven't decided to change the center diff yet....but may do that if the new setup provides the results we think it will.
Jay Storm
| MattNJ2.8 | 05-12-2005 10:11 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]So why not get the JDM Spec C STI Helical Torsen2 ... from RalliSpec ... basically the same as the Quaife ... but cheaper.
It costs about $700 to install a front LSD, together with a new clutch and lightened flywheel ... which you might as well do at the same time ... if you anyway think you are going to need a new clutch in the relatively near future ....[/QUOTE]
Holy ****! $700 just for install. Unfortunately, that prices me out of the market. Too many other expenses....mortgage, woman....yadda yadda yadda...sigh.... :rolleyes:
It costs about $700 to install a front LSD, together with a new clutch and lightened flywheel ... which you might as well do at the same time ... if you anyway think you are going to need a new clutch in the relatively near future ....[/QUOTE]
Holy ****! $700 just for install. Unfortunately, that prices me out of the market. Too many other expenses....mortgage, woman....yadda yadda yadda...sigh.... :rolleyes:
| Jsortor | 05-12-2005 11:08 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Has anyone changed their suspension set-up to keep the rear inside wheel on the ground ... so that one can get power to the ground with a rear LSD!
Obviously one needs to go softer on the rear sway bar ... but use stiffer springs ?
Also ... can anyone report on the differences between using the oem center WRX diff and the 20 kg center ... in Autocross. How worthwhile is this mod ...[/QUOTE]
Unless there is actually rear wheel spin -on throttle- Somebody PLEEEZE tell me why this is important? I have only seen this once, and it was an Audi with practically stock springs all around and a fat bar on the back. My rear wheel lift is only on corner entry, and maybe, maybe, in mid corner. By corner exit w/throttle on, the wieght has transferred to the back and has compensated for the roll of the car and the rear tire does not spin on throttle. Plenty of times I hear, "oh you lift your rear tire big time" and I say, "So?". What is to be said about Toby Larssens BMW when both inside tires are off the ground midcorner...I wish I had that problem is what I say. ;)
Obviously one needs to go softer on the rear sway bar ... but use stiffer springs ?
Also ... can anyone report on the differences between using the oem center WRX diff and the 20 kg center ... in Autocross. How worthwhile is this mod ...[/QUOTE]
Unless there is actually rear wheel spin -on throttle- Somebody PLEEEZE tell me why this is important? I have only seen this once, and it was an Audi with practically stock springs all around and a fat bar on the back. My rear wheel lift is only on corner entry, and maybe, maybe, in mid corner. By corner exit w/throttle on, the wieght has transferred to the back and has compensated for the roll of the car and the rear tire does not spin on throttle. Plenty of times I hear, "oh you lift your rear tire big time" and I say, "So?". What is to be said about Toby Larssens BMW when both inside tires are off the ground midcorner...I wish I had that problem is what I say. ;)
| chudlo | 05-12-2005 11:34 PM |
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]Holy ****! $700 just for install. Unfortunately, that prices me out of the market. Too many other expenses....mortgage, woman....yadda yadda yadda...sigh.... :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I would also recomend a gear swap at the same time. The labor for my gear swap was $6-700 alone. Might as well while the case is open.
But that would add another $1500 or so after shipping. ;)
And you might want to do the clutch and flywheel as stated above, so that is going to be more than $500.
So even if you did the LSD alone, it looks like about $700 for labor and another $800 or so for a new LSD.
Not really cheap. But I bet you would like the result. :D
I would also recomend a gear swap at the same time. The labor for my gear swap was $6-700 alone. Might as well while the case is open.
But that would add another $1500 or so after shipping. ;)
And you might want to do the clutch and flywheel as stated above, so that is going to be more than $500.
So even if you did the LSD alone, it looks like about $700 for labor and another $800 or so for a new LSD.
Not really cheap. But I bet you would like the result. :D
| Storm | 05-13-2005 12:30 AM |
I can only speak for us.....but rear wheel spin is an issue for us.....even upon exit. We're generating enough grip to lighten both inside wheels The front Quaife handles that end, but now the rest of the power goes to the rear inside, which is open on our 98RS. Even though our wheel lift is settling down as we feed the power back on, we're still lighting the rear up in high load turns. We're back on the power alot sooner with the front diff.
[QUOTE=Jsortor]Unless there is actually rear wheel spin -on throttle- Somebody PLEEEZE tell me why this is important? I have only seen this once, and it was an Audi with practically stock springs all around and a fat bar on the back. My rear wheel lift is only on corner entry, and maybe, maybe, in mid corner. By corner exit w/throttle on, the wieght has transferred to the back and has compensated for the roll of the car and the rear tire does not spin on throttle. Plenty of times I hear, "oh you lift your rear tire big time" and I say, "So?". What is to be said about Toby Larssens BMW when both inside tires are off the ground midcorner...I wish I had that problem is what I say. ;)[/QUOTE]
I can only hope that our next round of mods adresses this for good. We have tuned out [I]most[/I] of the weaknesses of our RS. My [I]driving[/I] on the other hand..... :rolleyes: :( :p
Jay Storm
[QUOTE=Jsortor]Unless there is actually rear wheel spin -on throttle- Somebody PLEEEZE tell me why this is important? I have only seen this once, and it was an Audi with practically stock springs all around and a fat bar on the back. My rear wheel lift is only on corner entry, and maybe, maybe, in mid corner. By corner exit w/throttle on, the wieght has transferred to the back and has compensated for the roll of the car and the rear tire does not spin on throttle. Plenty of times I hear, "oh you lift your rear tire big time" and I say, "So?". What is to be said about Toby Larssens BMW when both inside tires are off the ground midcorner...I wish I had that problem is what I say. ;)[/QUOTE]
I can only hope that our next round of mods adresses this for good. We have tuned out [I]most[/I] of the weaknesses of our RS. My [I]driving[/I] on the other hand..... :rolleyes: :( :p
Jay Storm
| mashimaro | 05-13-2005 01:28 AM |
yeah, the cusco tarmac center diff is an open diff, and i believe it is listed by Cusco as a non-lsd diff ... thats why it's a must to have a strong rear lsd to put the power down, the viscous rear r160 diff died after 1 autocross event, I remember Mako was there , hahaha ... i remember it felt like an open diff in the rear, with the front diff open too, the car wasn't going anywhere ... i think cusco had this in mind and really wanna sell all their cusco F, c, r diffs to end users and possibly wear their cusco badge :D , it's expensive but once you get this combination, it should work great ... i seriously considered a clutch type lsd for the rear but got discouraged since i don't think i have time to rebuild, tune, setting the initial torque and stuff ... the only benefit over the quaife is i don't have to worry about inside rear lift, at the end, i still ended up with the quaife knowing its worryless and durability ... so, i have to find ways to keep the rear as independent as possible ...
eric sung
eric sung
| makofoto | 05-13-2005 01:54 AM |
Thanks for joining us Eric!
Josh ... that what I thought ... rear wheel lift is essentially over by mid corner ... but I too find that I have to be a bit judicious with throttle input or else I will now (post front LSD) spin my inside rear tire on corner exit.
There was another Thread were we discussed this ... and the other Champs made it clear that the inside rear was light for a good portion on the corner.
Perhaps with your huevos to the wall driving style ... essentially always sideways/sliding ... it doesn't matter ... ALL of your tires are barely making contact with Mother Earth anyway! :-)
... perhaps your special rear endlinks help you maintain decent rear contact. :D
Josh ... that what I thought ... rear wheel lift is essentially over by mid corner ... but I too find that I have to be a bit judicious with throttle input or else I will now (post front LSD) spin my inside rear tire on corner exit.
There was another Thread were we discussed this ... and the other Champs made it clear that the inside rear was light for a good portion on the corner.
Perhaps with your huevos to the wall driving style ... essentially always sideways/sliding ... it doesn't matter ... ALL of your tires are barely making contact with Mother Earth anyway! :-)
... perhaps your special rear endlinks help you maintain decent rear contact. :D
| makofoto | 05-13-2005 01:58 AM |
When my gear box was opened to put in the LSD ... I told them to call me immediately if I needed to replace gears (31K) ... they called and said the gears were in fine shape and did not need replacing. I was going to replace with JDM Spec C hardened gears ... same excellent for AX gear oem ratios.
I went with the Exedy Sport clutch and 14.5 lb flywheel ... I wish I had gone a bit lighter with the flywheel ...
I went with the Exedy Sport clutch and 14.5 lb flywheel ... I wish I had gone a bit lighter with the flywheel ...
| dwx | 05-13-2005 09:33 AM |
The problem I had last year with the inside rear is the car had too much power. Even with inside tire being "light" it would easily overpower it with the stock viscous, that's why I went with the Kaaz rear. It locks very fast and that stuff doesn't happen.
As for the LSD install, it kind of depends on how much experience you have or if you know someone else that has experience. I would put the install at about six hours total. Myself and another guy charged a local ~$500 to install an RA gearset (including trans r&r), I'd guess we'd do the diff for about $250, it's a lot less involved. You'd want to buy new side bearings for the diff.
As for the LSD install, it kind of depends on how much experience you have or if you know someone else that has experience. I would put the install at about six hours total. Myself and another guy charged a local ~$500 to install an RA gearset (including trans r&r), I'd guess we'd do the diff for about $250, it's a lot less involved. You'd want to buy new side bearings for the diff.
| Jsortor | 05-13-2005 09:37 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]
... perhaps your special rear endlinks help you maintain decent rear contact. :D[/QUOTE]
Ssh you were not supposed to talk about those on the board! :lol: :lol:
... perhaps your special rear endlinks help you maintain decent rear contact. :D[/QUOTE]
Ssh you were not supposed to talk about those on the board! :lol: :lol:
| MattNJ2.8 | 05-13-2005 03:57 PM |
I know Quaife has a lifetime warranty- but what kind of service life would an upgraded front diff have? You still have to pay to have the thing removed to ship to Quaife...
| MattNJ2.8 | 05-30-2005 04:47 PM |
Little update. I was hoping that a front LSD would help with understeer issues:
Current Setup:
Cobb Stg II (Helix DP, Cobb catback)
Eibach Springs / KYB AGXs (AGX set at 3 F - 4 R
Whiteline 24-26mm front sway (max stiff)
Helix Rear sway Adjustable (max stiff)
Whiteline F/R Endlinks
Steering rack bushings
Tarmac IIs with RE070s 37 F 37 Rear PSI (need to raise these pressures)
Racingbrake Rotors/Hawk HPS/ Motul fluids
Alignment : -1 Front L/R camber 0 toe all around, sucky caster
Autocrossed this weekend for the first time with the bar set F/R both at max stiffness. Still understeers signifigantly. My times improved as I also took a autocross school.
I know some of my understeering issues are my driving. Would a front LSD help?
Current Setup:
Cobb Stg II (Helix DP, Cobb catback)
Eibach Springs / KYB AGXs (AGX set at 3 F - 4 R
Whiteline 24-26mm front sway (max stiff)
Helix Rear sway Adjustable (max stiff)
Whiteline F/R Endlinks
Steering rack bushings
Tarmac IIs with RE070s 37 F 37 Rear PSI (need to raise these pressures)
Racingbrake Rotors/Hawk HPS/ Motul fluids
Alignment : -1 Front L/R camber 0 toe all around, sucky caster
Autocrossed this weekend for the first time with the bar set F/R both at max stiffness. Still understeers signifigantly. My times improved as I also took a autocross school.
I know some of my understeering issues are my driving. Would a front LSD help?
| PA04STI | 05-30-2005 04:55 PM |
How hard is it to change out the front diffs. I am considering down the road on changing the Viscous front diff to a mechanical like the 05 STi.
The viscous isn't bad but you have to change the fluid in order to keep it working properly.
What diff do you guys recommend to use?
-Cusco clutch type (1 way, 1.5 way, 2 way)?
-JDM
-other
That is why the STi has the rear diff temp warning light for when at 35/65 it will warn you when rear diff is getting too hot.
Thanks,
Matt
The viscous isn't bad but you have to change the fluid in order to keep it working properly.
What diff do you guys recommend to use?
-Cusco clutch type (1 way, 1.5 way, 2 way)?
-JDM
-other
That is why the STi has the rear diff temp warning light for when at 35/65 it will warn you when rear diff is getting too hot.
Thanks,
Matt
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 05-30-2005 05:43 PM |
Hello,
[QUOTE=PA04STI]How hard is it to change out the front diffs. I am considering down the road on changing the Viscous front diff to a mechanical like the 05 STi.[/quote]
All that is required is drop the transmission, split the case, pull the ring gear off the diff, put the new diff in place with the ring gear on it, set the backlash, adjust the preload, reassemble the case, reinstall the transmission and you're done :)
[quote]The viscous isn't bad but you have to change the fluid in order to keep it working properly.[/quote]
I've never heard of that. The unit is a sealed unit and you would need to hit it with a cutting torch or some heavy duty drill bits to get in there... and you would be experimenting with danger when you weld it shut again...
[quote]What diff do you guys recommend to use?
-Cusco clutch type (1 way, 1.5 way, 2 way)?
-JDM
-other
[/quote]
STi front is pretty good. We really liked the Quaiffes on the racecar. The clutch types seem to give more understeer... Also, a 2-way would make for interesting parking lot action... If it gets good lockup under all conditions, you will get binding as you try to park.
[quote]That is why the STi has the rear diff temp warning light for when at 35/65 it will warn you when rear diff is getting too hot.[/quote]
What does the center diff setting have to do with the temperature at the rear?
Joel (at the drag and the track, never got the warning)
[QUOTE=PA04STI]How hard is it to change out the front diffs. I am considering down the road on changing the Viscous front diff to a mechanical like the 05 STi.[/quote]
All that is required is drop the transmission, split the case, pull the ring gear off the diff, put the new diff in place with the ring gear on it, set the backlash, adjust the preload, reassemble the case, reinstall the transmission and you're done :)
[quote]The viscous isn't bad but you have to change the fluid in order to keep it working properly.[/quote]
I've never heard of that. The unit is a sealed unit and you would need to hit it with a cutting torch or some heavy duty drill bits to get in there... and you would be experimenting with danger when you weld it shut again...
[quote]What diff do you guys recommend to use?
-Cusco clutch type (1 way, 1.5 way, 2 way)?
-JDM
-other
[/quote]
STi front is pretty good. We really liked the Quaiffes on the racecar. The clutch types seem to give more understeer... Also, a 2-way would make for interesting parking lot action... If it gets good lockup under all conditions, you will get binding as you try to park.
[quote]That is why the STi has the rear diff temp warning light for when at 35/65 it will warn you when rear diff is getting too hot.[/quote]
What does the center diff setting have to do with the temperature at the rear?
Joel (at the drag and the track, never got the warning)
| PA04STI | 05-30-2005 07:29 PM |
Hello,
[QUOTE]All that is required is drop the transmission, split the case, pull the ring gear off the diff, put the new diff in place with the ring gear on it, set the backlash, adjust the preload, reassemble the case, reinstall the transmission and you're done :)[/QUOTE]
Yeah knew it would take some work. We put a Quaiffe in my buddies turbo GSR wasn't easy but probably not as hard as STi.
[QUOTE]I've never heard of that. The unit is a sealed unit and you would need to hit it with a cutting torch or some heavy duty drill bits to get in there... and you would be experimenting with danger when you weld it shut again...[/QUOTE]
Oh I thought you can change the fluid I mean it has to get bad Right?
[QUOTE]STi front is pretty good. We really liked the Quaiffes on the racecar. The clutch types seem to give more understeer... Also, a 2-way would make for interesting parking lot action... If it gets good lockup under all conditions, you will get binding as you try to park.[/QUOTE]
I contacted Quaiffe about if they are going to make diffs for STi they said no it is not worth it, but they make front/rear for WRX so can you use WRX front Quaiffe on STi?
[QUOTE]What does the center diff setting have to do with the temperature at the rear?
Joel (at the drag and the track, never got the warning)[/QUOTE]
Not sure but it does have a rear diff temp warning. Figured when 35/65 it would put more strain on rear diff, but could be wrong. Probably would take alot to get it that hot. Just because they don't have a warning for the front diff.
[QUOTE]All that is required is drop the transmission, split the case, pull the ring gear off the diff, put the new diff in place with the ring gear on it, set the backlash, adjust the preload, reassemble the case, reinstall the transmission and you're done :)[/QUOTE]
Yeah knew it would take some work. We put a Quaiffe in my buddies turbo GSR wasn't easy but probably not as hard as STi.
[QUOTE]I've never heard of that. The unit is a sealed unit and you would need to hit it with a cutting torch or some heavy duty drill bits to get in there... and you would be experimenting with danger when you weld it shut again...[/QUOTE]
Oh I thought you can change the fluid I mean it has to get bad Right?
[QUOTE]STi front is pretty good. We really liked the Quaiffes on the racecar. The clutch types seem to give more understeer... Also, a 2-way would make for interesting parking lot action... If it gets good lockup under all conditions, you will get binding as you try to park.[/QUOTE]
I contacted Quaiffe about if they are going to make diffs for STi they said no it is not worth it, but they make front/rear for WRX so can you use WRX front Quaiffe on STi?
[QUOTE]What does the center diff setting have to do with the temperature at the rear?
Joel (at the drag and the track, never got the warning)[/QUOTE]
Not sure but it does have a rear diff temp warning. Figured when 35/65 it would put more strain on rear diff, but could be wrong. Probably would take alot to get it that hot. Just because they don't have a warning for the front diff.
| makofoto | 05-31-2005 02:02 AM |
Matt ... a lot of initial understeer is driver induced ... as you seem to know. But your car is definitely Camber challenged ... when you turn your steering wheel ... you are going to end up with positive camber ... just like safety conscious Subaru intended ... when they designed our front set-up with so little Caster.
If you are serious about AX ... you need to get camber/caster plates WAY before you worry about adding a front LSD ... which would put you into Street Modified ... a place you probably don't want to go to!
My front LSD does help get the power down ... but it doesn't prevent under steer. My buddies very well set-up STX WRX doesn't under steer badly and he has no trouble getting the power down (on our typically fast National style AX courses). One does have to exercise restraint and control feeding in the power when on the edge ... but that's what we are all trying to learn ... control.
If you are serious about AX ... you need to get camber/caster plates WAY before you worry about adding a front LSD ... which would put you into Street Modified ... a place you probably don't want to go to!
My front LSD does help get the power down ... but it doesn't prevent under steer. My buddies very well set-up STX WRX doesn't under steer badly and he has no trouble getting the power down (on our typically fast National style AX courses). One does have to exercise restraint and control feeding in the power when on the edge ... but that's what we are all trying to learn ... control.
| Storm | 05-31-2005 03:43 AM |
Repeat after me.....Adding a LSD only bumps you as far as STREET PREPARED....not STREET MODIFIED....Just a little different. ;)
The LSD will not make up for driver mistakes.....It will help you take advantage of the traction available, that's about it.
Jay Storm
The LSD will not make up for driver mistakes.....It will help you take advantage of the traction available, that's about it.
Jay Storm
| makofoto | 05-31-2005 03:45 AM |
We just don't see any Subies in SP around here ... so I always forget about SP
| dwx | 05-31-2005 07:51 AM |
The 6MT is actually not that hard to install a front LSD in. You have to take off the front "clutch housing" portion of the trans (the 6MT does not split) and after that it's the same as the 5MT. The Quaife 5MT LSD won't work with the 6MT.
I'm going to try a 6MT with a Cusco 1-way front LSD in my new car and see how that works out. It's supposed to lock mainly under power I just hope the lockup is progressive. If it locks too fast I could see issues where you are feathering the throttle and the front end may do strange stuff.
LSD isn't going to cure your understeer problems. That's a suspension setup/driver problem.
I'm going to try a 6MT with a Cusco 1-way front LSD in my new car and see how that works out. It's supposed to lock mainly under power I just hope the lockup is progressive. If it locks too fast I could see issues where you are feathering the throttle and the front end may do strange stuff.
LSD isn't going to cure your understeer problems. That's a suspension setup/driver problem.
| PA04STI | 05-31-2005 12:43 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Matt ... a lot of initial understeer is driver induced ... as you seem to know. But your car is definitely Camber challenged ... when you turn your steering wheel ... you are going to end up with positive camber ... just like safety conscious Subaru intended ... when they designed our front set-up with so little Caster.
If you are serious about AX ... you need to get camber/caster plates WAY before you worry about adding a front LSD ... which would put you into Street Modified ... a place you probably don't want to go to!
My front LSD does help get the power down ... but it doesn't prevent under steer. My buddies very well set-up STX WRX doesn't under steer badly and he has no trouble getting the power down (on our typically fast National style AX courses). One does have to exercise restraint and control feeding in the power when on the edge ... but that's what we are all trying to learn ... control.[/QUOTE]
Took care of that already for the track.
Here is what I did suspension wide for my STi:
*Tein Flexes
*GT Spec Lower Arm Bar
*Cobb front/rear sways
*Poltec Endlinks
*Cusco front/rear struts
*Also really good 4 wheel alignment that covered everything
Really wanted car more for the track. Am already out of my league in AX.
Matt
If you are serious about AX ... you need to get camber/caster plates WAY before you worry about adding a front LSD ... which would put you into Street Modified ... a place you probably don't want to go to!
My front LSD does help get the power down ... but it doesn't prevent under steer. My buddies very well set-up STX WRX doesn't under steer badly and he has no trouble getting the power down (on our typically fast National style AX courses). One does have to exercise restraint and control feeding in the power when on the edge ... but that's what we are all trying to learn ... control.[/QUOTE]
Took care of that already for the track.
Here is what I did suspension wide for my STi:
*Tein Flexes
*GT Spec Lower Arm Bar
*Cobb front/rear sways
*Poltec Endlinks
*Cusco front/rear struts
*Also really good 4 wheel alignment that covered everything
Really wanted car more for the track. Am already out of my league in AX.
Matt
| ChrisW | 05-31-2005 12:43 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Matt ... a lot of initial understeer is driver induced ... as you seem to know. But your car is definitely Camber challenged ... when you turn your steering wheel ... you are going to end up with positive camber ... just like safety conscious Subaru intended ... when they designed our front set-up with so little Caster.
If you are serious about AX ... you need to get camber/caster plates WAY before you worry about adding a front LSD ... which would put you into Street Modified ... a place you probably don't want to go to!
My front LSD does help get the power down ... but it doesn't prevent under steer. My buddies very well set-up STX WRX doesn't under steer badly and he has no trouble getting the power down (on our typically fast National style AX courses). One does have to exercise restraint and control feeding in the power when on the edge ... but that's what we are all trying to learn ... control.[/QUOTE]
camber caster plates are ST legal too, but will offer a different upgrade path than SP.
In Street touring and in street prepared, you can use camber caster plates, but in street touring, you can also use the the adjustable rear lateral links, which not legal in SP.
You I think you have two development paths before reaching SM. you can add the front LSD and camber plates and run in ESP, or you can modify the suspension and go in ST. Either way, running SP lets you bring in more of the power mods you will need as a base to make the big HP numbers in SM, or you can run ST and develop a suspension package that will let you put the power down effectively when you jump to SM for the big HP numbers.
If you are serious about AX ... you need to get camber/caster plates WAY before you worry about adding a front LSD ... which would put you into Street Modified ... a place you probably don't want to go to!
My front LSD does help get the power down ... but it doesn't prevent under steer. My buddies very well set-up STX WRX doesn't under steer badly and he has no trouble getting the power down (on our typically fast National style AX courses). One does have to exercise restraint and control feeding in the power when on the edge ... but that's what we are all trying to learn ... control.[/QUOTE]
camber caster plates are ST legal too, but will offer a different upgrade path than SP.
In Street touring and in street prepared, you can use camber caster plates, but in street touring, you can also use the the adjustable rear lateral links, which not legal in SP.
You I think you have two development paths before reaching SM. you can add the front LSD and camber plates and run in ESP, or you can modify the suspension and go in ST. Either way, running SP lets you bring in more of the power mods you will need as a base to make the big HP numbers in SM, or you can run ST and develop a suspension package that will let you put the power down effectively when you jump to SM for the big HP numbers.
| makofoto | 05-31-2005 01:08 PM |
Butler Matt ... I was addressing Matt NJ2.8 in my 11:02 PM message
>>>Also really good 4 wheel alignment that covered everything<<<
? No such thing as a 4 wheel alignment that covers everything ... it's all a compromise. :-(
AX'ing will make you a better Track Driver ...
>>>Also really good 4 wheel alignment that covered everything<<<
? No such thing as a 4 wheel alignment that covers everything ... it's all a compromise. :-(
AX'ing will make you a better Track Driver ...
| Guru Imakuni | 05-31-2005 01:26 PM |
I don't get any of this but could it be more adventageous to step up to a DCCD for all the expensives of doing a front LSD swap?
| nsnguyen | 05-31-2005 03:25 PM |
I had a quaife installed in my Evo and I can say that it makes a world of difference. On deceleration it acts like an open diff, so my ABS works fine, but when on power you can feel the diff biasing power to the outside wheel as the weight transfers and that wheel gets more traction. Definitely much better than an open diff. I would say that it's a more dramatic improvement than the DCCD since the stock VCU already does a fine job of managing power front:rear, and usually there's a bigger speed difference left:right than front:rear. Speaking from Evo experience, people on our side of the fence seem to think that the difference in handling between an 04 RS and 04 GSR (where the RS has the front LSD) is bigger than the difference between an 04 RS and and 05 RS (where the 05 has the ACD but both have the front LSD)
| MattNJ2.8 | 05-31-2005 05:28 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Butler Matt ... I was addressing Matt NJ2.8 in my 11:02 PM message
>>>Also really good 4 wheel alignment that covered everything<<<
? No such thing as a 4 wheel alignment that covers everything ... it's all a compromise. :-(
AX'ing will make you a better Track Driver ...[/QUOTE]
Mako.... I've been searching the archives for a while now... trying to figure out if caster/camber plates are what I'm looking for. I basically want to just "set and forget" the alignment settings, and sway wheels at the autocross/track.
For that purpose, would plates be overkill? I don't desire the adjustability, just the desire to go beyone stock caster/camber.
I'm thinking front/rear bolts might do the trick nicely, at a reduced cost. My primary driver isn't cost, but *value*- the plates seem to have extra adjustability features that I won't need.
What do you think?
>>>Also really good 4 wheel alignment that covered everything<<<
? No such thing as a 4 wheel alignment that covers everything ... it's all a compromise. :-(
AX'ing will make you a better Track Driver ...[/QUOTE]
Mako.... I've been searching the archives for a while now... trying to figure out if caster/camber plates are what I'm looking for. I basically want to just "set and forget" the alignment settings, and sway wheels at the autocross/track.
For that purpose, would plates be overkill? I don't desire the adjustability, just the desire to go beyone stock caster/camber.
I'm thinking front/rear bolts might do the trick nicely, at a reduced cost. My primary driver isn't cost, but *value*- the plates seem to have extra adjustability features that I won't need.
What do you think?
| Storm | 06-01-2005 12:04 AM |
I'm not Mako....but yes, you'll be plenty happy with camberplates. You don't have to move them around once you find a setting you like. Being able to adjust them is just an easy way to get the setting you like.
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]Mako.... I've been searching the archives for a while now... trying to figure out if caster/camber plates are what I'm looking for. I basically want to just "set and forget" the alignment settings, and sway wheels at the autocross/track.
For that purpose, would plates be overkill? I don't desire the adjustability, just the desire to go beyone stock caster/camber.
I'm thinking front/rear bolts might do the trick nicely, at a reduced cost. My primary driver isn't cost, but *value*- the plates seem to have extra adjustability features that I won't need.
What do you think?[/QUOTE]Jay Storm
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]Mako.... I've been searching the archives for a while now... trying to figure out if caster/camber plates are what I'm looking for. I basically want to just "set and forget" the alignment settings, and sway wheels at the autocross/track.
For that purpose, would plates be overkill? I don't desire the adjustability, just the desire to go beyone stock caster/camber.
I'm thinking front/rear bolts might do the trick nicely, at a reduced cost. My primary driver isn't cost, but *value*- the plates seem to have extra adjustability features that I won't need.
What do you think?[/QUOTE]Jay Storm
| drees | 06-01-2005 02:37 AM |
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]I'm thinking front/rear bolts might do the trick nicely, at a reduced cost. My primary driver isn't cost, but *value*- the plates seem to have extra adjustability features that I won't need.[/QUOTE]Whether or not you go camber bolts and/or plates (front plates and rear bolts are a good combo), definitely look into some offset bushings or the Whiteline anti-lift kit for the front arms for another 0.5* of static caster.
| makofoto | 06-01-2005 03:36 AM |
NJ2.8 ... we all wish there was one setting that worked.
If you at all anticipate that you might get more seriously involved in Auto Crossing or Track Days ... you might as well go with Camber/Caster plates in front ... and at least camber bolts in back. And you will NOT want to get the Whiteline ALK since they aren't legal in most classes. I believe you can use the (Whiteline?) offset bushings to get a bit of extra caster.
If you are going to get Camber plates ... you should get camber/caster plates. Adding caster is very important in maintaining your static camber when you turn your wheels. Without added Caster you need massive amounts of Camber to have any Camber left after turning.
Rear camber bolts are fine for a start ... but I prefer the relatively inexpensive Whiteline adjustable lateral links. They make it easy to adjust your rear TOE and Camber, and make sure your Thrust is correct. Of course they also allow you to completely screw up all of your rear settings! ;-)
An inexpensive set-up is to use regular triangular camber plates but turn them 120 degrees - so that the slot runs back and in ... about 60 degrees. You might also have to switch them left for right and turn them over. You should be able to get as much as +6 degrees of Caster ... but only about 2.5 degrees of Camber ... but with that much Caster ... you will keep keep whatever Camber you have. A safe toe setting is 1/16th total front Toe Out. Tire wear isn't too bad ... but you will have better, faster turn in.
If you start with Cusco ROUND Camber plates ... you can have new holes drilled for the studs ... so that they slot runs back about 50 degrees. This will also give you a lot of Caster ... and even a greater range of Camber. You can also have the slot lengthened to gain yet more Caster and Camber.
Just using Camber Bolts up front will only give you about -1.5 degrees of Camber ... not sufficient, especially without adding Caster. With Off-Set front bushings you will only end up with about +4 degrees of Caster ... not really enough to preserve your Camber while cornering.
If you get rear camber bolts make sure they are REAR camber bolts. 19 mm front camber bolts won't fit ...
If you at all anticipate that you might get more seriously involved in Auto Crossing or Track Days ... you might as well go with Camber/Caster plates in front ... and at least camber bolts in back. And you will NOT want to get the Whiteline ALK since they aren't legal in most classes. I believe you can use the (Whiteline?) offset bushings to get a bit of extra caster.
If you are going to get Camber plates ... you should get camber/caster plates. Adding caster is very important in maintaining your static camber when you turn your wheels. Without added Caster you need massive amounts of Camber to have any Camber left after turning.
Rear camber bolts are fine for a start ... but I prefer the relatively inexpensive Whiteline adjustable lateral links. They make it easy to adjust your rear TOE and Camber, and make sure your Thrust is correct. Of course they also allow you to completely screw up all of your rear settings! ;-)
An inexpensive set-up is to use regular triangular camber plates but turn them 120 degrees - so that the slot runs back and in ... about 60 degrees. You might also have to switch them left for right and turn them over. You should be able to get as much as +6 degrees of Caster ... but only about 2.5 degrees of Camber ... but with that much Caster ... you will keep keep whatever Camber you have. A safe toe setting is 1/16th total front Toe Out. Tire wear isn't too bad ... but you will have better, faster turn in.
If you start with Cusco ROUND Camber plates ... you can have new holes drilled for the studs ... so that they slot runs back about 50 degrees. This will also give you a lot of Caster ... and even a greater range of Camber. You can also have the slot lengthened to gain yet more Caster and Camber.
Just using Camber Bolts up front will only give you about -1.5 degrees of Camber ... not sufficient, especially without adding Caster. With Off-Set front bushings you will only end up with about +4 degrees of Caster ... not really enough to preserve your Camber while cornering.
If you get rear camber bolts make sure they are REAR camber bolts. 19 mm front camber bolts won't fit ...
| REDrum | 06-01-2005 08:02 AM |
tagged...
| MattNJ2.8 | 06-01-2005 09:39 PM |
Ok, I'll take your advice. I'll get front camber plates and rear bolts.
Now, after searching, I've come across a ton of options.
Hotchkis, PDE, Cusco, Noltec.... every one seems to have a favorite.
I think I'm gonna go with Cusco, but on different vendor sites I cannot confirm if they have caster adjustment :confused: :confused: It's probably obvious, but better to be sure. For $219 shipped at Gruppe-S.
Now, after searching, I've come across a ton of options.
Hotchkis, PDE, Cusco, Noltec.... every one seems to have a favorite.
I think I'm gonna go with Cusco, but on different vendor sites I cannot confirm if they have caster adjustment :confused: :confused: It's probably obvious, but better to be sure. For $219 shipped at Gruppe-S.
| makofoto | 06-01-2005 10:40 PM |
I don't believe Cusco has a camber plate that includes caster adjustment ... read my message again about rotating the round Cusco plate so that the slot runs about 50 degrees back (starting with the slot being at 90 degrees from the center line of the car) and drilling new holes for the studs. This is what ProSolo Champ Josh Sortor uses ... and Jeff Barco ... who's had a number of high placing in the west coast National events ... and now a lot of Team Blew members are also switching over. Inexpensive, light solution to get a lot of Caster and Camber ...
| Storm | 06-01-2005 11:12 PM |
I'll add that if you flop the Cusco plates to get caster and camber....make sure you have upgraded bushings. I found that my stock bushings didn't hold the alignment very well with the added stress of caster in the picture. The car didn't feel consistant enough for me to get comfortable with it. I opted to go back to simple camber only and am now limiting roll as opposed to controlling camber despite the roll.
YMMV....Jay Storm
YMMV....Jay Storm
| MattNJ2.8 | 06-02-2005 05:07 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]I don't believe Cusco has a camber plate that includes caster adjustment ... read my message again about rotating the round Cusco plate so that the slot runs about 50 degrees back (starting with the slot being at 90 degrees from the center line of the car) and drilling new holes for the studs. This is what ProSolo Champ Josh Sortor uses ... and Jeff Barco ... who's had a number of high placing in the west coast National events ... and now a lot of Team Blew members are also switching over. Inexpensive, light solution to get a lot of Caster and Camber ...[/QUOTE]
To be honest, I'd rather keep the plates stock. The Noltecs seem a great deal for ~$270 shipped. I think that they would fit the bill nicely. Now to borrow a spring compressor!
To be honest, I'd rather keep the plates stock. The Noltecs seem a great deal for ~$270 shipped. I think that they would fit the bill nicely. Now to borrow a spring compressor!
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