| kemon78 | 10-18-2006 12:45 AM |
Race Camber
�
�
I am running on 2 degrees of camber in the front and 1 on the rear. Curious if anybody has experience with more camber. I use Nitto 245x18 r compound. Thanks
| boost junkie | 10-18-2006 12:52 AM |
I run -2.5F, -1.6R and it works great. My car is even a daily driver :D If you are on R-comps they will love some more negative camber. Although I have been running RE070s on the track, when I switch to RA-1's next season I'm either going to increase my static camber or (more likely) get a set of ball joint extenders.
| Subaru_555 | 10-18-2006 01:19 AM |
[QUOTE=boost junkie;15653624]I run -2.5F, -1.6R and it works great. My car is even a daily driver :D If you are on R-comps they will love some more negative camber. Although I have been running RE070s on the track, when I switch to RA-1's next season I'm either going to increase my static camber or (more likely) get a set of ball joint extenders.[/QUOTE]
How's the tire wear, seeing as it's your daily driver?
How's the tire wear, seeing as it's your daily driver?
| GFimpreza | 10-18-2006 02:17 AM |
-2 degrees is no problem on a daily driver....as long as you have zero or close to zero toe.
| goto_racing | 10-18-2006 03:21 AM |
If we are talking about "Race" camber (the title of the thread), then it completely depends on your setup. More specifically your roll resistance. Obviously the more your car rolls, the more camber you will need to keep a good contact patch with the track.
We ran into an this issue when we were first setting up our GAC Legacy. Per Grand Am rules you can't run more than -3.0 degress of negative camber (don't ask why, it is the lamest rule in the book IMHO). When we ran the WRX in USTCC, we ran more like -4.0 to -5.0. This was mostly due to the fact that we ran the front of the car pretty soft to help the front "bite" harder. We could not due this with the Legacy, we needed to run the front much stiffer to lessen the roll of the car and get good tire wear. This was much more important in an endurance race than the couple of tenths that we might have gained by softing the front, especially when we ran the rubber of the outside of the tire 30 minutes in. Luck for us the Legacy was still really fast with the throttle on oversteer we were able to get out of the multi-link rear suspension.
Anyway, you can't really ask other people what camber to run on your car. Only after coming of the track hot and taking tire temps will you know what you need to run. And it will be very different from track to track.
This is all assuming that we are talking about track cars, if not, then ingore everything just said and run whatever looks the coolest :).
-Brian
We ran into an this issue when we were first setting up our GAC Legacy. Per Grand Am rules you can't run more than -3.0 degress of negative camber (don't ask why, it is the lamest rule in the book IMHO). When we ran the WRX in USTCC, we ran more like -4.0 to -5.0. This was mostly due to the fact that we ran the front of the car pretty soft to help the front "bite" harder. We could not due this with the Legacy, we needed to run the front much stiffer to lessen the roll of the car and get good tire wear. This was much more important in an endurance race than the couple of tenths that we might have gained by softing the front, especially when we ran the rubber of the outside of the tire 30 minutes in. Luck for us the Legacy was still really fast with the throttle on oversteer we were able to get out of the multi-link rear suspension.
Anyway, you can't really ask other people what camber to run on your car. Only after coming of the track hot and taking tire temps will you know what you need to run. And it will be very different from track to track.
This is all assuming that we are talking about track cars, if not, then ingore everything just said and run whatever looks the coolest :).
-Brian
| Crawdads | 10-18-2006 03:23 AM |
lots of people, especially those of us who auto-x with r-comps run lots of camber. I remember seeing a picture of Makofoto's car with something like 5 or 6...it looked broken.
I have almost 4 degrees in the front...I daily drive on it, tire wear isnt really an issue (bad toe settings kill tires faster). Although I am still DD on rt615s...so tire wear is a fact of life.
I have almost 4 degrees in the front...I daily drive on it, tire wear isnt really an issue (bad toe settings kill tires faster). Although I am still DD on rt615s...so tire wear is a fact of life.
| BIGSKYWRX | 10-18-2006 09:38 AM |
He's got a STi so he already has an advantage w/ an additional 1.5 degrees of caster (ot but I was saddened to hear the 07 STi's will be going back to "normal" caster ~ 3.5 :( ). That said w/ R compunds you could certainly run more camber up front and probably more in the rear is a well. Keep your toe "moderate" and you should be able to run on the street w/o making any additional adjustments. I woud guess as you approach -3.0+ you may start having wear issues- irregardless of toe. Up to -3.0 w/ moderate toe (near 0) you should be golden :D
| MattNJ2.8 | 10-18-2006 09:39 AM |
Pyrometer = your best answer.
Temp across the face of the tire is what you seek.
Temp across the face of the tire is what you seek.
| Subaru_555 | 10-18-2006 12:40 PM |
[QUOTE=goto_racing;15654626]If we are talking about "Race" camber (the title of the thread), then it completely depends on your setup. More specifically your roll resistance. Obviously the more your car rolls, the more camber you will need to keep a good contact patch with the track.
We ran into an this issue when we were first setting up our GAC Legacy. Per Grand Am rules you can't run more than -3.0 degress of negative camber (don't ask why, it is the lamest rule in the book IMHO). When we ran the WRX in USTCC, we ran more like -4.0 to -5.0. This was mostly due to the fact that we ran the front of the car pretty soft to help the front "bite" harder. We could not due this with the Legacy, we needed to run the front much stiffer to lessen the roll of the car and get good tire wear. This was much more important in an endurance race than the couple of tenths that we might have gained by softing the front, especially when we ran the rubber of the outside of the tire 30 minutes in. Luck for us the Legacy was still really fast with the throttle on oversteer we were able to get out of the multi-link rear suspension.
Anyway, you can't really ask other people what camber to run on your car. Only after coming of the track hot and taking tire temps will you know what you need to run. And it will be very different from track to track.
This is all assuming that we are talking about track cars, if not, then ingore everything just said and run whatever looks the coolest :).
-Brian[/QUOTE]
What tire pressures were you running on the GAC Legacy? I'm assuming slightly higher in the front for more turn in but probably not as high as a FWD car correct?
We ran into an this issue when we were first setting up our GAC Legacy. Per Grand Am rules you can't run more than -3.0 degress of negative camber (don't ask why, it is the lamest rule in the book IMHO). When we ran the WRX in USTCC, we ran more like -4.0 to -5.0. This was mostly due to the fact that we ran the front of the car pretty soft to help the front "bite" harder. We could not due this with the Legacy, we needed to run the front much stiffer to lessen the roll of the car and get good tire wear. This was much more important in an endurance race than the couple of tenths that we might have gained by softing the front, especially when we ran the rubber of the outside of the tire 30 minutes in. Luck for us the Legacy was still really fast with the throttle on oversteer we were able to get out of the multi-link rear suspension.
Anyway, you can't really ask other people what camber to run on your car. Only after coming of the track hot and taking tire temps will you know what you need to run. And it will be very different from track to track.
This is all assuming that we are talking about track cars, if not, then ingore everything just said and run whatever looks the coolest :).
-Brian[/QUOTE]
What tire pressures were you running on the GAC Legacy? I'm assuming slightly higher in the front for more turn in but probably not as high as a FWD car correct?
| KC | 10-18-2006 12:44 PM |
What kind of 'racing' are we doing today?
| DrBiggly | 10-18-2006 12:54 PM |
[QUOTE=KC;15658817]What kind of 'racing' are we doing today?[/QUOTE]
Yep.
The answer to everything related to this is: it depends. :)
-Biggly
Yep.
The answer to everything related to this is: it depends. :)
-Biggly
| AtomicRacer | 10-18-2006 01:27 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly;15658994]Yep.
The answer to everything related to this is: [b]42[/b] :)
-Biggly[/QUOTE]
Fixed.
-Paul
The answer to everything related to this is: [b]42[/b] :)
-Biggly[/QUOTE]
Fixed.
-Paul
| Patrick L | 10-18-2006 01:31 PM |
LOL!
-3F/-2R here
-3F/-2R here
| trhoppe | 10-18-2006 02:18 PM |
[QUOTE=KC;15658817]What kind of 'racing' are we doing today?[/QUOTE]
:lol: Brilliant!
-Tom
who raced to work today on -1 camber and it was enough
:lol: Brilliant!
-Tom
who raced to work today on -1 camber and it was enough
| DrBiggly | 10-18-2006 02:32 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15660389]:lol: Brilliant!
-Tom
who raced to work today on -1 camber and it was enough[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
I can just see you doing that...
-Biggly
-Tom
who raced to work today on -1 camber and it was enough[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
I can just see you doing that...
-Biggly
| trhoppe | 10-18-2006 02:37 PM |
I was in the Expedition tow truck ;) :lol:
I totally passed some guy under braking. He was in the left lane and I was in the right lane. I know he was going straight and I was turning right but it still counted.
-Tom
I totally passed some guy under braking. He was in the left lane and I was in the right lane. I know he was going straight and I was turning right but it still counted.
-Tom
| autoxer666 | 10-18-2006 04:10 PM |
-2.0 upfront and -1.3 rear. this is on a forester xt. i run autox in ESP on street tires. also my wife's daily driver.
| Subaru_555 | 10-18-2006 04:28 PM |
the forester XT is a blast!
| silver arrow | 10-18-2006 04:31 PM |
Get camber plates and adjust camber based on tire temps. Then adust the camber to -1 when you leave the track
| Element Tuning | 10-18-2006 05:53 PM |
-4.5 used to work great for us but now -2.5 works great. Your suspension setup has everything to do with how much camber you'll need. Get out there and take your tire temps to determine how much camber is required for your setup.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| flyboymike | 10-18-2006 06:09 PM |
Big negative camber on the street if you're doing enough straight-line highway commuting can be an issue IF you don't stay on top of things, even at zero toe. Be prepared to rotate frequently and possibly flip them on the rim. If you're swapping on R-comps every time you hit the track anyway, you'll probably be cognizent of any big changes (i.e., inside edge getting chewed all the way to cord.)
CN: My lack of diligence -> spending $$$ on tires
CN: My lack of diligence -> spending $$$ on tires
| goto_racing | 10-18-2006 08:15 PM |
[QUOTE=Subaru_555;15658753]What tire pressures were you running on the GAC Legacy? I'm assuming slightly higher in the front for more turn in but probably not as high as a FWD car correct?[/QUOTE]
Well traditionally you run lower pressures in the front on FWD cars. This tends to help the tire bite, the same as if you were to lower spring rates. The side wall of your tire is effectively an undampened spring. More psi, less compliance, less grip, most of the time.
Anyway we aimed for equal tire temps on the Legacy, however that meant starting 1 to 2 psi higher in the rear. Our target hot pressure was about 38 psi. But this also depends on what tire you are running.
-Brian
Well traditionally you run lower pressures in the front on FWD cars. This tends to help the tire bite, the same as if you were to lower spring rates. The side wall of your tire is effectively an undampened spring. More psi, less compliance, less grip, most of the time.
Anyway we aimed for equal tire temps on the Legacy, however that meant starting 1 to 2 psi higher in the rear. Our target hot pressure was about 38 psi. But this also depends on what tire you are running.
-Brian
| kemon78 | 10-18-2006 08:39 PM |
Thanks guys. I have not taken temps of the tire as I pull of the track, I am not that sophisticated yet. A little more info on the use, I run the car at time attacks. I have a six point cage with JIC suspension and cusco front and rear bars. The car is pretty stiff. If I run 3 to 4 degrees of camber on the front and 1-2 degrees on the rear, will i lose much traction coming out of the corner as i get on the gas? I like the sound of more bite turning into a corner. tire integrity over a long stint is not an issue as most time attack formats do not give me longer than 20- 30 mins per session to post a fast lap. not that it matters much because the current tires I am using get "slippery" after 5 or 6 hot laps (depending on track). That being said, as I am in So Cal I am usually at Willow Springs, Button Willow, and Cali Speedway.
To summarize what you guys are telling me... buy a tool that takes the temp of tires, until then run 3-5 degrees of front camber and 1-3 of rear. does that sound about right?
To summarize what you guys are telling me... buy a tool that takes the temp of tires, until then run 3-5 degrees of front camber and 1-3 of rear. does that sound about right?
| Homemade WRX | 10-18-2006 10:33 PM |
[QUOTE=goto_racing;15654626] Anyway, you can't really ask other people what camber to run on your car. Only after coming of the track hot and taking tire temps will you know what you need to run. And it will be very different from track to track.[/QUOTE]
The truth has come out...the only way to do it right...as every aspect of YOUR CAR's suspenion, tire and corner weights will affect the needed camber...I'm ignoring aero in this case as our car's are well, what aero ;)
The truth has come out...the only way to do it right...as every aspect of YOUR CAR's suspenion, tire and corner weights will affect the needed camber...I'm ignoring aero in this case as our car's are well, what aero ;)
| kemon78 | 10-19-2006 12:56 AM |
[QUOTE=Homemade WRX;15666751]The truth has come out...the only way to do it right...as every aspect of YOUR CAR's suspenion, tire and corner weights will affect the needed camber...I'm ignoring aero in this case as our car's are well, what aero ;)[/QUOTE]
So what are you looking for when you take the temps? how do you know you have it right? Do you want even temperature over the face of the tire, or more heat towards the inside, or more on the outside?:confused:
So what are you looking for when you take the temps? how do you know you have it right? Do you want even temperature over the face of the tire, or more heat towards the inside, or more on the outside?:confused:
| trhoppe | 10-19-2006 12:59 AM |
Usually, you want the insides to be a touch hotter then the outside of the tires.
Also, try to check temps during the last lap of a hotsession rather then coming in from your cooldown lap. If you do the latter, the outside of your tires will have cooled quite a bit on the cooldown lap.
-Tom
Also, try to check temps during the last lap of a hotsession rather then coming in from your cooldown lap. If you do the latter, the outside of your tires will have cooled quite a bit on the cooldown lap.
-Tom
| silver arrow | 10-19-2006 09:12 AM |
[QUOTE=Homemade WRX;15666751]The truth has come out...the only way to do it right...as every aspect of YOUR CAR's suspenion, tire and corner weights will affect the needed camber...I'm ignoring aero in this case as our car's are well, what aero ;)[/QUOTE]
I call mine the flying brick :banana:
I call mine the flying brick :banana:
| Homemade WRX | 10-19-2006 09:48 AM |
[QUOTE=kemon78;15668231]So what are you looking for when you take the temps? how do you know you have it right? Do you want even temperature over the face of the tire, or more heat towards the inside, or more on the outside?:confused:[/QUOTE]
slightly hotter inside shoulder than out shoulder (think of the tires contact at all times) with the middle of the tire falling between the two (generally closer to inside temps and more of a tire pressure thing).
slightly hotter inside shoulder than out shoulder (think of the tires contact at all times) with the middle of the tire falling between the two (generally closer to inside temps and more of a tire pressure thing).
| Patrick Olsen | 10-19-2006 10:42 AM |
[QUOTE=Subaru_555;15662321]the forester XT is a blast![/QUOTE]
Totally!!!
Wait, what was this thread about again...? :confused:
Totally!!!
Wait, what was this thread about again...? :confused:
| kemon78 | 10-20-2006 12:23 AM |
thanks, appreciate the help
| TooSoonJr | 10-20-2006 08:40 PM |
Homemade WRX,
I'd like to start by pointing out the glaring of irony in your previous statements. You tell people that they can't generalize for camber. But, I'll be damned, apparently we can generalize on tire temps. Imagine that. You have no clue where the tire temps should be. You have no clue what the gradient should be. I highly suggest you start talking out of your mouth instead of your ass:banana:
In reality, the proper gradient and temperature are dependent upon both the rubber properties and the frequency of solicitation of the rubber (speed). There are definitely optimum temperatures for certain situations. You may be in the proper range in the inside shoulder but have a terrible gradient. You may then correct the gradient and make the tire run too cool overall. There are a million different outcomes.
I suggest you try tuning by gradients but look at skidpad results also. Make sure you aren't overlooking a performance regime for the sake of a simple tuning technique (ie temp gradient)
Hugs and Kisses,
TooSoonJr
I'd like to start by pointing out the glaring of irony in your previous statements. You tell people that they can't generalize for camber. But, I'll be damned, apparently we can generalize on tire temps. Imagine that. You have no clue where the tire temps should be. You have no clue what the gradient should be. I highly suggest you start talking out of your mouth instead of your ass:banana:
In reality, the proper gradient and temperature are dependent upon both the rubber properties and the frequency of solicitation of the rubber (speed). There are definitely optimum temperatures for certain situations. You may be in the proper range in the inside shoulder but have a terrible gradient. You may then correct the gradient and make the tire run too cool overall. There are a million different outcomes.
I suggest you try tuning by gradients but look at skidpad results also. Make sure you aren't overlooking a performance regime for the sake of a simple tuning technique (ie temp gradient)
Hugs and Kisses,
TooSoonJr
| Butt Dyno | 10-20-2006 08:45 PM |
[QUOTE=TooSoonJr;15691294]Homemade WRX,
I'd like to start by pointing out the glaring of irony in your previous statements. You tell people that they can't generalize for camber. But, I'll be damned, apparently we can generalize on tire temps. Imagine that. You have no clue where the tire temps should be. You have no clue what the gradient should be. I highly suggest you start talking out of your mouth instead of your ass:banana:
Hugs and Kisses,
TooSoonJr[/QUOTE]Did you join just to post this? We don't take kindly to trolls 'round these parts.
I'd like to start by pointing out the glaring of irony in your previous statements. You tell people that they can't generalize for camber. But, I'll be damned, apparently we can generalize on tire temps. Imagine that. You have no clue where the tire temps should be. You have no clue what the gradient should be. I highly suggest you start talking out of your mouth instead of your ass:banana:
Hugs and Kisses,
TooSoonJr[/QUOTE]Did you join just to post this? We don't take kindly to trolls 'round these parts.
| M | 10-20-2006 08:48 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno;15691334]Did you join just to post this? We don't take kindly to trolls 'round these parts.[/QUOTE]
While I agree this clown is just that, his post is technically correct.
While I agree this clown is just that, his post is technically correct.
| TooSoonJr | 10-20-2006 08:54 PM |
No, not a troll. Its just frustrating that people like HomemadeWRX and solox or whatever his name is can just make stuff up like they do. They only perpetuate age old myths and "shortcuts."
I have been an engineer for Bridgestone for a number of years now. I have worked in the testing department for several years. I am now in the high performance design and testing field. I'd be happy to entertain any intelligent questions.
I have been an engineer for Bridgestone for a number of years now. I have worked in the testing department for several years. I am now in the high performance design and testing field. I'd be happy to entertain any intelligent questions.
| silver arrow | 10-20-2006 11:16 PM |
[QUOTE=TooSoonJr;15691294]Homemade WRX,
I'd like to start by pointing out the glaring of irony in your previous statements. You tell people that they can't generalize for camber. But, I'll be damned, apparently we can generalize on tire temps. Imagine that. You have no clue where the tire temps should be. You have no clue what the gradient should be. I highly suggest you start talking out of your mouth instead of your ass:banana:
In reality, the proper gradient and temperature are dependent upon both the rubber properties and the frequency of solicitation of the rubber (speed). There are definitely optimum temperatures for certain situations. You may be in the proper range in the inside shoulder but have a terrible gradient. You may then correct the gradient and make the tire run too cool overall. There are a million different outcomes.
I suggest you try tuning by gradients but look at skidpad results also. Make sure you aren't overlooking a performance regime for the sake of a simple tuning technique (ie temp gradient)
Hugs and Kisses,
TooSoonJr[/QUOTE]
I'm not an engineer, where should I start? I run RT615's on an STi at 38 psi front and rear. -3 deg static camber. I typically run 60 sec autocross courses and see 2-3 psi pressure raise in tire pressures. What temp should I see and what gradient should I shoot for.
I'd like to start by pointing out the glaring of irony in your previous statements. You tell people that they can't generalize for camber. But, I'll be damned, apparently we can generalize on tire temps. Imagine that. You have no clue where the tire temps should be. You have no clue what the gradient should be. I highly suggest you start talking out of your mouth instead of your ass:banana:
In reality, the proper gradient and temperature are dependent upon both the rubber properties and the frequency of solicitation of the rubber (speed). There are definitely optimum temperatures for certain situations. You may be in the proper range in the inside shoulder but have a terrible gradient. You may then correct the gradient and make the tire run too cool overall. There are a million different outcomes.
I suggest you try tuning by gradients but look at skidpad results also. Make sure you aren't overlooking a performance regime for the sake of a simple tuning technique (ie temp gradient)
Hugs and Kisses,
TooSoonJr[/QUOTE]
I'm not an engineer, where should I start? I run RT615's on an STi at 38 psi front and rear. -3 deg static camber. I typically run 60 sec autocross courses and see 2-3 psi pressure raise in tire pressures. What temp should I see and what gradient should I shoot for.
| M | 10-20-2006 11:33 PM |
Unless RT615's are a bridgestone tire, I doubt that guy is going to be able to help you all that much. Unless he's got some sort of data on them I wouldn't think he would be able to develope a gradiant for you. Is that -3 static camber all around? What is your ride height, stock or different from stock? Any suspension work done, if so what?
More people need to realize what the tire temp is actually telling them. It's not going to say your tire is at X temp. It's at X temp when you checked it. It's going to give a rough estimate of the work the tire has done. In a perfect world there is no gradiant, you use the entire tire to do all the work.
How you take tire temps also plays a roll in what temp you will read. Are you using IR or core temps (probe)? Each will give different information.
Are you seeing some tires have a greater pressure increase over the corse of your events?
Some stuff to answer before you go any further. It's not as simple as "Teacher, Teacher, my toy is broken! FIX IT!". You need more information.
More people need to realize what the tire temp is actually telling them. It's not going to say your tire is at X temp. It's at X temp when you checked it. It's going to give a rough estimate of the work the tire has done. In a perfect world there is no gradiant, you use the entire tire to do all the work.
How you take tire temps also plays a roll in what temp you will read. Are you using IR or core temps (probe)? Each will give different information.
Are you seeing some tires have a greater pressure increase over the corse of your events?
Some stuff to answer before you go any further. It's not as simple as "Teacher, Teacher, my toy is broken! FIX IT!". You need more information.
| solo-x | 10-20-2006 11:33 PM |
yeah, we shouldn't generalize about tire temps. i mean, we have this ideal lab where we can isolate variables and take real time tire temps. :rolleyes:
btw, in the future, please, attack my argument, not my character. think i'm wrong on something? don't be a puss4y, tell me you think i'm wrong and make sure you can back yourself up. i can admit when i'm wrong, can you?
btw, in the future, please, attack my argument, not my character. think i'm wrong on something? don't be a puss4y, tell me you think i'm wrong and make sure you can back yourself up. i can admit when i'm wrong, can you?
| M | 10-20-2006 11:41 PM |
He actually hasn't been wrong other than his attacks on individuals, which i agree is childish.
And you can take real time tire temps. It's done in almost every major racing series in the world. Sometimes during the race but usually not. The way the real time temps are taken tends to vary in effectiveness, but there are a few teams out there that have it down pat.
And you can take real time tire temps. It's done in almost every major racing series in the world. Sometimes during the race but usually not. The way the real time temps are taken tends to vary in effectiveness, but there are a few teams out there that have it down pat.
| solo-x | 10-20-2006 11:58 PM |
[QUOTE=M;15692622]He actually hasn't been wrong other than his attacks on individuals, which i agree is childish.
And you can take real time tire temps. It's done in almost every major racing series in the world. Sometimes during the race but usually not. The way the real time temps are taken tends to vary in effectiveness, but there are a few teams out there that have it down pat.[/QUOTE]
i know you can. have you priced the systems out there? i've already got the logger with available channels to do real time tire temperature measurements. to do just 3 sensors i'm looking at another ~$600. for 6 sensors and the logger, you're looking at ~$2200 depending on the logger you choose. i think there is more room in damper/suspension development then in mapping my tire temps real time. what more gain can i have then using the logger to zero in on max grip? sure, it'll take a little longer in testing, but most of us have time. not all of us have $2200 to burn on data logging.
And you can take real time tire temps. It's done in almost every major racing series in the world. Sometimes during the race but usually not. The way the real time temps are taken tends to vary in effectiveness, but there are a few teams out there that have it down pat.[/QUOTE]
i know you can. have you priced the systems out there? i've already got the logger with available channels to do real time tire temperature measurements. to do just 3 sensors i'm looking at another ~$600. for 6 sensors and the logger, you're looking at ~$2200 depending on the logger you choose. i think there is more room in damper/suspension development then in mapping my tire temps real time. what more gain can i have then using the logger to zero in on max grip? sure, it'll take a little longer in testing, but most of us have time. not all of us have $2200 to burn on data logging.
| M | 10-21-2006 12:01 AM |
$2200 in data logging is cheap, and I'm aware of the costs of professional motorsports. I'm unaware of the system you are referring to, is this some tuner package from a smaller company? Is it something that you have pieced together? How much data are you taking and what are you sampling at? How many channels can this handle, am I to assume 6?
| solo-x | 10-21-2006 12:17 AM |
[QUOTE=M;15692761]$2200 in data logging is cheap, and I'm aware of the costs of professional motorsports. I'm unaware of the system you are referring to, is this some tuner package from a smaller company? Is it something that you have pieced together? How much data are you taking and what are you sampling at? How many channels can this handle, am I to assume 6?[/QUOTE]
you're right, $2200 is cheap. that's a DL1 and IR temp sensors from Solid State Racing. the DL1 will map 8 channels, plus long/lat accel and GPS position/speed. i don't think you could do this any cheaper. where is your ROI? for club racing, $2200 into your motor to pick up 10whp will get you seconds per lap. you are not going to get that same improvement in time by discovering you need to reduce your tire pressures by 1psi.
you're right, $2200 is cheap. that's a DL1 and IR temp sensors from Solid State Racing. the DL1 will map 8 channels, plus long/lat accel and GPS position/speed. i don't think you could do this any cheaper. where is your ROI? for club racing, $2200 into your motor to pick up 10whp will get you seconds per lap. you are not going to get that same improvement in time by discovering you need to reduce your tire pressures by 1psi.
| M | 10-21-2006 12:25 AM |
[QUOTE=solo-x;15692865]you're right, $2200 is cheap. that's a DL1 and IR temp sensors from Solid State Racing. the DL1 will map 8 channels, plus long/lat accel and GPS position/speed. i don't think you could do this any cheaper. where is your ROI? for club racing, $2200 into your motor to pick up 10whp will get you seconds per lap. you are not going to get that same improvement in time by discovering you need to reduce your tire pressures by 1psi.[/QUOTE]
The idea behind testing is that you already have a good base, most club racing and racing in general has somewhat of a level HP base. You gain a lot with handling and you improve handling with design and testing. In real racing and even at the spec miata level, $2200 in testing to improve vehicle dynamics will be far more valueable than a slight hp gain.
The idea behind testing is that you already have a good base, most club racing and racing in general has somewhat of a level HP base. You gain a lot with handling and you improve handling with design and testing. In real racing and even at the spec miata level, $2200 in testing to improve vehicle dynamics will be far more valueable than a slight hp gain.
| Homemade WRX | 10-21-2006 01:04 AM |
[QUOTE=TooSoonJr;15691399]No, not a troll. Its just frustrating that people like HomemadeWRX and solox or whatever his name is can just make stuff up like they do. They only perpetuate age old myths and "shortcuts."
I have been an engineer for Bridgestone for a number of years now. I have worked in the testing department for several years. I am now in the high performance design and testing field. I'd be happy to entertain any intelligent questions.[/QUOTE]
no, what you posted is true...just most people don't have the tools/resources to properly develope/test a tire/tires to run optimal situations all the time...I should have posted my response as a grass roots rule of thumb for quick changes.
Yes, everything you have said is true and I actually have applied to my school's FSAE car as I have gone to MTS and been able to use there tire testing machine. I spent an entire day (still not enough time) on one tire testing through various loads and ranges. The being I could get all the values needed to determine (to the best of my knowledge) what was needed and what was actually input on the tire.
I guess anyone with data aq and a team to take tire temps for them when as soon as he's done testing on the skidpad could fair pretty well specing a tire for their car, given they have complete tire specs.
Regardless, we aren't running endurance cars or extremely high levels where a few degrees in the tire will make or break the race. Those who are on here would already know how to get the thorough tested results as well.
Also, how come bridgestone doesn't want to play with Formula SAE?:(
Goodyear's, Hoosier's and Avon's all have the boo...
must say, feels a bit like competition...being questioned/schooled by those in the know ;)
oh and as for the suggestion I had made above comes from what seemed to work best on several difference cars with various tires. Formula to my pig, from R-comps to bias ply slicks to M+S's...hence the rule of thumb statement above. This being judged on driver response and lap times...keep in mind done to tune around minimal suspension adjustment for most of the cars.
I have been an engineer for Bridgestone for a number of years now. I have worked in the testing department for several years. I am now in the high performance design and testing field. I'd be happy to entertain any intelligent questions.[/QUOTE]
no, what you posted is true...just most people don't have the tools/resources to properly develope/test a tire/tires to run optimal situations all the time...I should have posted my response as a grass roots rule of thumb for quick changes.
Yes, everything you have said is true and I actually have applied to my school's FSAE car as I have gone to MTS and been able to use there tire testing machine. I spent an entire day (still not enough time) on one tire testing through various loads and ranges. The being I could get all the values needed to determine (to the best of my knowledge) what was needed and what was actually input on the tire.
I guess anyone with data aq and a team to take tire temps for them when as soon as he's done testing on the skidpad could fair pretty well specing a tire for their car, given they have complete tire specs.
Regardless, we aren't running endurance cars or extremely high levels where a few degrees in the tire will make or break the race. Those who are on here would already know how to get the thorough tested results as well.
Also, how come bridgestone doesn't want to play with Formula SAE?:(
Goodyear's, Hoosier's and Avon's all have the boo...
must say, feels a bit like competition...being questioned/schooled by those in the know ;)
oh and as for the suggestion I had made above comes from what seemed to work best on several difference cars with various tires. Formula to my pig, from R-comps to bias ply slicks to M+S's...hence the rule of thumb statement above. This being judged on driver response and lap times...keep in mind done to tune around minimal suspension adjustment for most of the cars.
| DrBiggly | 10-21-2006 10:30 AM |
[QUOTE=M;15692916]The idea behind testing is that you already have a good base, most club racing and racing in general has somewhat of a level HP base.[/quote]
Where is your data to support this claim? I can pretty much lay money on there being a more than 10hp difference within the field and I'm betting that solo-x would too.
[quote] You gain a lot with handling and you improve handling with design and testing. [/quote]
Absolutely! I agree that plenty of folks overlook further suspension development in favor of chasing that last 1hp. However, it comes to a point of diminishing returns in that $2200 in testing to work on a single psi in tire pressure is likely not going to be as beneficial as putting that development somewhere else unless this is a big budget team and all other fronts have been unequivocally conquered.
[quote]In real racing and even at the spec miata level, $2200 in testing to improve vehicle dynamics will be far more valueable than a slight hp gain.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but at what budget level? You have good ideas about how things should work and should be applied, but your perspective is so far out of whack that you do not realize that in most cases they cannot be applied.
Most of the folks on here don't have that sort of money to spend on maximizing tire pressure for the perfect gradient when they are taking baloney sandwiches to work to save enough money for entry fees and sleeping in tents/their cars at the track because a hotel fee is too expensive. :)
-Biggly
Where is your data to support this claim? I can pretty much lay money on there being a more than 10hp difference within the field and I'm betting that solo-x would too.
[quote] You gain a lot with handling and you improve handling with design and testing. [/quote]
Absolutely! I agree that plenty of folks overlook further suspension development in favor of chasing that last 1hp. However, it comes to a point of diminishing returns in that $2200 in testing to work on a single psi in tire pressure is likely not going to be as beneficial as putting that development somewhere else unless this is a big budget team and all other fronts have been unequivocally conquered.
[quote]In real racing and even at the spec miata level, $2200 in testing to improve vehicle dynamics will be far more valueable than a slight hp gain.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but at what budget level? You have good ideas about how things should work and should be applied, but your perspective is so far out of whack that you do not realize that in most cases they cannot be applied.
Most of the folks on here don't have that sort of money to spend on maximizing tire pressure for the perfect gradient when they are taking baloney sandwiches to work to save enough money for entry fees and sleeping in tents/their cars at the track because a hotel fee is too expensive. :)
-Biggly
| Subaru_555 | 10-21-2006 11:24 AM |
Watch out for UWindsor in Detroit is all I have to say!
| Homemade WRX | 10-21-2006 12:31 PM |
[QUOTE=Subaru_555;15695290]Watch out for UWindsor in Detroit is all I have to say![/QUOTE]
offtopic:
more trash talking :lol:
well at least listen for my senior project in detroit...it be buzzing somewhere in the range of 20-25k...I might put a turkey call BOV for some fun in the paddocks
offtopic:
more trash talking :lol:
well at least listen for my senior project in detroit...it be buzzing somewhere in the range of 20-25k...I might put a turkey call BOV for some fun in the paddocks
| okaythen | 01-30-2007 08:13 AM |
[QUOTE=GFimpreza;15654296]-2 degrees is no problem on a daily driver....as long as you have zero or close to zero toe.[/QUOTE]
I got -1.5 front -2.0 rear..as long as toe is zero then it's ok for daily driving?
I got -1.5 front -2.0 rear..as long as toe is zero then it's ok for daily driving?
| RaceComp Engineering | 01-30-2007 08:48 AM |
[SIZE="4"]GOOD THREAD....[/SIZE]
Myles
Myles
| mav1c | 01-30-2007 08:53 AM |
[QUOTE=okaythen;16861175]I got -1.5 front -2.0 rear..as long as toe is zero then it's ok for daily driving?[/QUOTE]
If you have 0 toe you'e OK. But really, you're camber settings are backwards. -2 front and -1.5 rear would be a lot better.
If you have 0 toe you'e OK. But really, you're camber settings are backwards. -2 front and -1.5 rear would be a lot better.
| mav1c | 01-30-2007 08:59 AM |
On the street I run -2 front, -1.5 rear. When I get to the track and swap on the R-Comps, I move the front camber plates to -3. This also gives me a little toe out, which I like. I used to run less camber in the front before I really knew about the effects of a good alignment and how much Subaru's love negative camber in the front. I was wearing the outer edges of my tires a bit to quick. After moving to -3 front, my tires wear nice and even, and the car is much more neutral (less understeer) in the corners. Based on what suppension you have, your car may like more or less camber, but for track driving, I think -3 front, -1.5 is a good place to start.
| ralliharri | 01-30-2007 10:34 PM |
My recent changes gave me -2.5F/-1.6R on my DD, on the track I switch to r-comps, I'll see later in spring if tire wear can be kept in check with freq rotation, running Ecsta MX on the street which were going to be my track tires until I found a good deal on r-comps. I also bought a pyrometer recently, will be fun to see if I can useit and make sense of the data.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét