| tucker63 | 10-21-2003 12:29 AM |
intercooler stx legal
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I tried to find info on threads and could not find anything. My scca rule book has not arrived and just wanted to know if I upgraded my intercooler would I still be STX legal? Thanks
| thechickencow | 10-21-2003 12:55 AM |
Nope, not STX legal. Even intercooler hoses like samcos aren't legal for STX.
Jay
Jay
| KC | 10-21-2003 08:08 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by thechickencow [/i]
[B]Nope, not STX legal. Even intercooler hoses like samcos aren't legal for STX.
Jay [/B][/QUOTE] Jay... this evidently is still up for debate. (ick). According to Doug Gill, they are legal (Covered in the 'hoses up to the throttlebody' rule). I have one sitting in my box ready to go on as a matter of fact. However, no-one in a winning position like Tom or I (we both had ours with us at nationals) are ready to put it on and face a penalty in a protest. :)
We're hoping it will be clairified.
Tucker...about the Intercooler... 17.10.D:
[QUOTE]The engine management system parameters and operations may be modified only by the methods listed below. Any and all modifications must meet or exceed the applicable US DOT emissions standards for the year, make, and model of the car. [B]These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost levels, [I]intercoolers[/I], or boost controls are permitted.[/B] [/QUOTE] (This has been explained, described, printed, cut & pasted in many threads here, a simple search would have came up with the results)
--KC
[B]Nope, not STX legal. Even intercooler hoses like samcos aren't legal for STX.
Jay [/B][/QUOTE] Jay... this evidently is still up for debate. (ick). According to Doug Gill, they are legal (Covered in the 'hoses up to the throttlebody' rule). I have one sitting in my box ready to go on as a matter of fact. However, no-one in a winning position like Tom or I (we both had ours with us at nationals) are ready to put it on and face a penalty in a protest. :)
We're hoping it will be clairified.
Tucker...about the Intercooler... 17.10.D:
[QUOTE]The engine management system parameters and operations may be modified only by the methods listed below. Any and all modifications must meet or exceed the applicable US DOT emissions standards for the year, make, and model of the car. [B]These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost levels, [I]intercoolers[/I], or boost controls are permitted.[/B] [/QUOTE] (This has been explained, described, printed, cut & pasted in many threads here, a simple search would have came up with the results)
--KC
| Warp3 | 10-21-2003 08:31 AM |
Intercoolers are not legal in STX but they are in ESP or SM.
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
DSP 729 -- CCar Region
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
DSP 729 -- CCar Region
| ChrisW | 10-21-2003 08:49 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Jay... this evidently is still up for debate. (ick). According to Doug Gill, they are legal (Covered in the 'hoses up to the throttlebody' rule). I have one sitting in my box ready to go on as a matter of fact. However, no-one in a winning position like Tom or I (we both had ours with us at nationals) are ready to put it on and face a penalty in a protest. :)
We're hoping it will be clairified.
Tucker...about the Intercooler... 17.10.D:
(This has been explained, described, printed, cut & pasted in many threads here, a simple search would have came up with the results)
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, KC, I hope your right. but I don't think it will change anytime soon.
[B]Jay... this evidently is still up for debate. (ick). According to Doug Gill, they are legal (Covered in the 'hoses up to the throttlebody' rule). I have one sitting in my box ready to go on as a matter of fact. However, no-one in a winning position like Tom or I (we both had ours with us at nationals) are ready to put it on and face a penalty in a protest. :)
We're hoping it will be clairified.
Tucker...about the Intercooler... 17.10.D:
(This has been explained, described, printed, cut & pasted in many threads here, a simple search would have came up with the results)
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, KC, I hope your right. but I don't think it will change anytime soon.
| KC | 10-21-2003 09:15 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Warp3 [/i]
[B]Intercoolers are not legal in STX but they are in ESP or SM.
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
DSP 729 -- CCar Region [/B][/QUOTE] Hmmmmmm... good point!
I wonder how easy it would be to swap an IC (Hoses and all) before an event as a unit instead of just swapping hoses?
Reasoning... I plan on running STX for some events and ESP for others... If I could just swap out the IC and hoses as a unit... hmmmm. :devil: :lol:
Gonna have to look this up on doing an IC swap.
[B]Intercoolers are not legal in STX but they are in ESP or SM.
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
DSP 729 -- CCar Region [/B][/QUOTE] Hmmmmmm... good point!
I wonder how easy it would be to swap an IC (Hoses and all) before an event as a unit instead of just swapping hoses?
Reasoning... I plan on running STX for some events and ESP for others... If I could just swap out the IC and hoses as a unit... hmmmm. :devil: :lol:
Gonna have to look this up on doing an IC swap.
| angryfist | 10-21-2003 09:23 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Hmmmmmm... good point!
I wonder how easy it would be to swap an IC (Hoses and all) before an event as a unit instead of just swapping hoses?
Reasoning... I plan on running STX for some events and ESP for others... If I could just swap out the IC and hoses as a unit... hmmmm. :devil: :lol:
Gonna have to look this up on doing an IC swap. [/B][/QUOTE]
If you are going with a upgraded top mount it would only take like 5-10 minutes at most to swap it out with a new one. its super easy. only 4 bolts and 2 hose clamps.
-Jason
[B]Hmmmmmm... good point!
I wonder how easy it would be to swap an IC (Hoses and all) before an event as a unit instead of just swapping hoses?
Reasoning... I plan on running STX for some events and ESP for others... If I could just swap out the IC and hoses as a unit... hmmmm. :devil: :lol:
Gonna have to look this up on doing an IC swap. [/B][/QUOTE]
If you are going with a upgraded top mount it would only take like 5-10 minutes at most to swap it out with a new one. its super easy. only 4 bolts and 2 hose clamps.
-Jason
| trhoppe | 10-21-2003 10:16 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by angryfist [/i]
[B]If you are going with a upgraded top mount it would only take like 5-10 minutes at most to swap it out with a new one. its super easy. only 4 bolts and 2 hose clamps.
-Jason [/B][/QUOTE] What he said. You do swap the hose and IC together. Methinks the ESP budget just increased $750 :lol:
-Tom
[B]If you are going with a upgraded top mount it would only take like 5-10 minutes at most to swap it out with a new one. its super easy. only 4 bolts and 2 hose clamps.
-Jason [/B][/QUOTE] What he said. You do swap the hose and IC together. Methinks the ESP budget just increased $750 :lol:
-Tom
| KC | 10-21-2003 10:54 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]What he said. You do swap the hose and IC together. Methinks the ESP budget just increased $750 :lol:
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE] I have all winter to wait for a totalled STi with an in-tact intercooler. ;)
[B]What he said. You do swap the hose and IC together. Methinks the ESP budget just increased $750 :lol:
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE] I have all winter to wait for a totalled STi with an in-tact intercooler. ;)
| Orion | 10-21-2003 12:38 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]I have all winter to wait for a totalled STi with an in-tact intercooler. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
werd.;)
[B]I have all winter to wait for a totalled STi with an in-tact intercooler. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
werd.;)
| ChrisW | 10-21-2003 03:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]I have all winter to wait for a totalled STi with an in-tact intercooler. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
With the update backdate rules, don't forget to take the IC sprayer as well ;)
[B]I have all winter to wait for a totalled STi with an in-tact intercooler. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
With the update backdate rules, don't forget to take the IC sprayer as well ;)
| KC | 10-21-2003 04:11 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]With the update backdate rules, don't forget to take the IC sprayer as well ;) [/B][/QUOTE] 1) You assume the WRX and STi would be on the same line. Not in the 1st year. Once they are... the STi would be very hard to re-class. Anyone who did a legal STi UD/BD on their WRX would be bumped to prepared.
2) You assume the STi is in ESP. Not yet. ;) I have yet to see an AS car get put into ESP. Sure the EVO... but I don't think it's going to stay there. The only other argument is the AS SVT Cobra... in ESP... you don't hear others complaining about that one... hmmmm ;)
--KC
[B]With the update backdate rules, don't forget to take the IC sprayer as well ;) [/B][/QUOTE] 1) You assume the WRX and STi would be on the same line. Not in the 1st year. Once they are... the STi would be very hard to re-class. Anyone who did a legal STi UD/BD on their WRX would be bumped to prepared.
2) You assume the STi is in ESP. Not yet. ;) I have yet to see an AS car get put into ESP. Sure the EVO... but I don't think it's going to stay there. The only other argument is the AS SVT Cobra... in ESP... you don't hear others complaining about that one... hmmmm ;)
--KC
| ChrisW | 10-21-2003 05:56 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]1) You assume the WRX and STi would be on the same line. Not in the 1st year. Once they are... the STi would be very hard to re-class. Anyone who did a legal STi UD/BD on their WRX would be bumped to prepared.
2) You assume the STi is in ESP. Not yet. ;) I have yet to see an AS car get put into ESP. Sure the EVO... but I don't think it's going to stay there. The only other argument is the AS SVT Cobra... in ESP... you don't hear others complaining about that one... hmmmm ;)
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
We have a guy in a Saleen mustang competing in ESP in my region. It's classed in AS with the STI.
From the rule book, there is no separate line for the model years for the WRX, so I think the update/backdate rules apply. (not yet anyway)
Also, since the STI is just an"upgraded" WRX, it is classed in ESP. Remember, Subaru calls it a Subaru Impreza WRX STI, not a Subaru Impreza STI. It's all in the details I guess... :cool:
[B]1) You assume the WRX and STi would be on the same line. Not in the 1st year. Once they are... the STi would be very hard to re-class. Anyone who did a legal STi UD/BD on their WRX would be bumped to prepared.
2) You assume the STi is in ESP. Not yet. ;) I have yet to see an AS car get put into ESP. Sure the EVO... but I don't think it's going to stay there. The only other argument is the AS SVT Cobra... in ESP... you don't hear others complaining about that one... hmmmm ;)
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
We have a guy in a Saleen mustang competing in ESP in my region. It's classed in AS with the STI.
From the rule book, there is no separate line for the model years for the WRX, so I think the update/backdate rules apply. (not yet anyway)
Also, since the STI is just an"upgraded" WRX, it is classed in ESP. Remember, Subaru calls it a Subaru Impreza WRX STI, not a Subaru Impreza STI. It's all in the details I guess... :cool:
| MNbiker | 10-21-2003 11:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]...From the rule book, there is no separate line for the model years for the WRX, so I think the update/backdate rules apply. (not yet anyway)
Also, since the STI is just an"upgraded" WRX, it is classed in ESP. Remember, Subaru calls it a Subaru Impreza WRX STI, not a Subaru Impreza STI. It's all in the details I guess... :cool: [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm with KC on this subject - any update/backdate of STi parts into a WRX will be a VERY chancy proposition for the next year or so. First, it's not certain the WRX and STi will even be on the same line in the SP rules. Keep in mind that even if both are classed in SP, update/backdate may only be done if the models are on the same line. Second, there's a very good chance the STi and EVO will eventually get bumped to BSP, which leads me to believe the STi may start out on it's own line in the SP rules, to facilitate such a move.
However, I'm still crossing my fingers the WRX & STi do end up together, as I'd love to do an STi engine/drivetrain swap into the wagon.:devil:
I like the intercooler swap idea. I was planning to run ESP prep at local autox events & track days next year, and that would be an easy way to gain some extra power.
-Steve
[B]...From the rule book, there is no separate line for the model years for the WRX, so I think the update/backdate rules apply. (not yet anyway)
Also, since the STI is just an"upgraded" WRX, it is classed in ESP. Remember, Subaru calls it a Subaru Impreza WRX STI, not a Subaru Impreza STI. It's all in the details I guess... :cool: [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm with KC on this subject - any update/backdate of STi parts into a WRX will be a VERY chancy proposition for the next year or so. First, it's not certain the WRX and STi will even be on the same line in the SP rules. Keep in mind that even if both are classed in SP, update/backdate may only be done if the models are on the same line. Second, there's a very good chance the STi and EVO will eventually get bumped to BSP, which leads me to believe the STi may start out on it's own line in the SP rules, to facilitate such a move.
However, I'm still crossing my fingers the WRX & STi do end up together, as I'd love to do an STi engine/drivetrain swap into the wagon.:devil:
I like the intercooler swap idea. I was planning to run ESP prep at local autox events & track days next year, and that would be an easy way to gain some extra power.
-Steve
| TimStevens | 10-22-2003 08:33 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]I have all winter to wait for a totalled STi with an in-tact intercooler. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
IBKCcutsSubEdsbrakes ;)
[B]I have all winter to wait for a totalled STi with an in-tact intercooler. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
IBKCcutsSubEdsbrakes ;)
| KC | 10-22-2003 08:36 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TimStevens [/i]
[B]IBKCcutsSubEdsbrakes ;) [/B][/QUOTE] ShhH!!!11!1
[B]IBKCcutsSubEdsbrakes ;) [/B][/QUOTE] ShhH!!!11!1
| ChrisW | 10-22-2003 10:34 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]I'm with KC on this subject - any update/backdate of STi parts into a WRX will be a VERY chancy proposition for the next year or so. First, it's not certain the WRX and STi will even be on the same line in the SP rules. Keep in mind that even if both are classed in SP, update/backdate may only be done if the models are on the same line. Second, there's a very good chance the STi and EVO will eventually get bumped to BSP, which leads me to believe the STi may start out on it's own line in the SP rules, to facilitate such a move.
However, I'm still crossing my fingers the WRX & STi do end up together, as I'd love to do an STi engine/drivetrain swap into the wagon.:devil:
I like the intercooler swap idea. I was planning to run ESP prep at local autox events & track days next year, and that would be an easy way to gain some extra power.
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
I am not dumb enough to argue that point :p After the initial shock of finding the STI in ESP I kind of hope it stays there. Like you said, it makes for interesting update/backdate options. If you compare the times for a WRX with a 6 speed to the STI, you see they are pretty close.
Also, here's another far more powerful AS car that is classed in ESP, the toyota supra turbo (93.5+)
Another reason to keep the STI in ESP is to consider the competition. The car to beat in ESP is a 93?? camaro z28 with the LT1 option (corvette motor). It's a beast that no (normal) moostang can beat. Then there is Ford's factory race car, the Corbra R.
[B]I'm with KC on this subject - any update/backdate of STi parts into a WRX will be a VERY chancy proposition for the next year or so. First, it's not certain the WRX and STi will even be on the same line in the SP rules. Keep in mind that even if both are classed in SP, update/backdate may only be done if the models are on the same line. Second, there's a very good chance the STi and EVO will eventually get bumped to BSP, which leads me to believe the STi may start out on it's own line in the SP rules, to facilitate such a move.
However, I'm still crossing my fingers the WRX & STi do end up together, as I'd love to do an STi engine/drivetrain swap into the wagon.:devil:
I like the intercooler swap idea. I was planning to run ESP prep at local autox events & track days next year, and that would be an easy way to gain some extra power.
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
I am not dumb enough to argue that point :p After the initial shock of finding the STI in ESP I kind of hope it stays there. Like you said, it makes for interesting update/backdate options. If you compare the times for a WRX with a 6 speed to the STI, you see they are pretty close.
Also, here's another far more powerful AS car that is classed in ESP, the toyota supra turbo (93.5+)
Another reason to keep the STI in ESP is to consider the competition. The car to beat in ESP is a 93?? camaro z28 with the LT1 option (corvette motor). It's a beast that no (normal) moostang can beat. Then there is Ford's factory race car, the Corbra R.
| KC | 10-22-2003 11:23 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]I am not dumb enough to argue that point :p After the initial shock of finding the STI in ESP [/B][/QUOTE] STOP! Stop right there!!!
The car has NOT been classed in SP yet! Doug Gill said 'it can'. Your local regions are allowing it to run there.
However... this car has yet to be officially classed! You're wayyy ahead of yourself. I would be surprised to see it even in the next Fastrack. I think this car (and Evo) is going to be deliberated by the SEB for the next couple months.
So please stop saying it has been classed! ;)
-KC
[B]I am not dumb enough to argue that point :p After the initial shock of finding the STI in ESP [/B][/QUOTE] STOP! Stop right there!!!
The car has NOT been classed in SP yet! Doug Gill said 'it can'. Your local regions are allowing it to run there.
However... this car has yet to be officially classed! You're wayyy ahead of yourself. I would be surprised to see it even in the next Fastrack. I think this car (and Evo) is going to be deliberated by the SEB for the next couple months.
So please stop saying it has been classed! ;)
-KC
| ChrisW | 10-22-2003 03:04 PM |
following the existing rules, it is [i]provisionally[/i] and I [i]mean only provisionally with the context of the existing rules[/i] say that it is in ESP.
[b]IF[/b] it stays there, then it would be a nice thing. To set the record straight, [i]I still think it will be bumped to BSP.[/i]
[b]IF[/b] it stays there, then it would be a nice thing. To set the record straight, [i]I still think it will be bumped to BSP.[/i]
| KC | 10-22-2003 03:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]following the existing rules, it is [i]provisionally[/i] and I [i]mean only provisionally with the context of the existing rules[/i] say that it is in ESP.
[b]IF[/b] it stays there, then it would be a nice thing. To set the record straight, [i]I still think it will be bumped to BSP.[/i] [/B][/QUOTE] Following the existing rules for classing unclassified cars in SP...
ESP - Subaru
WRX
The STI is not the same MODEL as a WRX, so the classification in ESP for 'WRX' doesn't mean the STi is included in it. (From the missing text (all) next to it or a year range.. using Mustang as an example ('94+ all). )
So Technically... it's:
FSP - Subaru
4WD Turbo (all NOC)
Impreza (NOC)
:D
--KC
[B]following the existing rules, it is [i]provisionally[/i] and I [i]mean only provisionally with the context of the existing rules[/i] say that it is in ESP.
[b]IF[/b] it stays there, then it would be a nice thing. To set the record straight, [i]I still think it will be bumped to BSP.[/i] [/B][/QUOTE] Following the existing rules for classing unclassified cars in SP...
ESP - Subaru
WRX
The STI is not the same MODEL as a WRX, so the classification in ESP for 'WRX' doesn't mean the STi is included in it. (From the missing text (all) next to it or a year range.. using Mustang as an example ('94+ all). )
So Technically... it's:
FSP - Subaru
4WD Turbo (all NOC)
Impreza (NOC)
:D
--KC
| MNbiker | 10-22-2003 04:02 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]So Technically... it's:
FSP - Subaru
4WD Turbo (all NOC)
Impreza (NOC)
:D
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
It would be great fun to show up at an event next weekend with an STi and register in FSP, just to see the looks on the faces of a couple national-caliber FSP drivers I know!:lol: :lol: :lol:
-Steve
p.s. By the rules, KC's right - the STi is in FSP, until the SEB tells us different.
[B]So Technically... it's:
FSP - Subaru
4WD Turbo (all NOC)
Impreza (NOC)
:D
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
It would be great fun to show up at an event next weekend with an STi and register in FSP, just to see the looks on the faces of a couple national-caliber FSP drivers I know!:lol: :lol: :lol:
-Steve
p.s. By the rules, KC's right - the STi is in FSP, until the SEB tells us different.
| ChrisW | 10-22-2003 04:06 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Following the existing rules for classing unclassified cars in SP...
ESP - Subaru
WRX
The STI is not the same MODEL as a WRX, so the classification in ESP for 'WRX' doesn't mean the STi is included in it. (From the missing text (all) next to it or a year range.. using Mustang as an example ('94+ all). )
So Technically... it's:
FSP - Subaru
4WD Turbo (all NOC)
Impreza (NOC)
:D
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
See, that's where we disagree. My STI brochure, and the subaru website both refer to the STI as a "WRX STI Sedan" not a Subaru Impreza STI as you maintain.
[URL=http://www.subaru.com/servlet/showroom?model=IMPREZA&trim=WRX_STI_SEDAN&command=overview]Subaru's website for the WRX STI Sedan[/URL]
going by what subaru is tell you, technically speaking of course ;), is that the subaru WRX STI sedan is an upgraded WRX and therefore belongs in ESP.
:D
See your argument works both ways. But technically, Subaru says the STI is a enhanced WRX
[QUOTE]We've taken the power and control of the Subaru WRX to a new extreme. the WRX STI is ready to run with its ....[/QUOTE]
[B]Following the existing rules for classing unclassified cars in SP...
ESP - Subaru
WRX
The STI is not the same MODEL as a WRX, so the classification in ESP for 'WRX' doesn't mean the STi is included in it. (From the missing text (all) next to it or a year range.. using Mustang as an example ('94+ all). )
So Technically... it's:
FSP - Subaru
4WD Turbo (all NOC)
Impreza (NOC)
:D
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
See, that's where we disagree. My STI brochure, and the subaru website both refer to the STI as a "WRX STI Sedan" not a Subaru Impreza STI as you maintain.
[URL=http://www.subaru.com/servlet/showroom?model=IMPREZA&trim=WRX_STI_SEDAN&command=overview]Subaru's website for the WRX STI Sedan[/URL]
going by what subaru is tell you, technically speaking of course ;), is that the subaru WRX STI sedan is an upgraded WRX and therefore belongs in ESP.
:D
See your argument works both ways. But technically, Subaru says the STI is a enhanced WRX
[QUOTE]We've taken the power and control of the Subaru WRX to a new extreme. the WRX STI is ready to run with its ....[/QUOTE]
| jcroy66 | 10-22-2003 04:09 PM |
Actually, one of the clarification letters I saw from Doug Gill indicated that the STi did NOT fall into the NOC classification in FSP, because the STi wasn't available at the time the classifications came out.
(Please note I don't personally have any knowledge of the intricacies of how the NOC classifications work in such instances, I'm just relaying the Doug Gill email.)
If anyone wants to check out the exact text, here is where the email was posted: [URL=http://www.imprezawrxsti.com/postnuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1949&start=15&sid=ad800213b7f21cd523297377762c42bc]Imprezawrxsti[/URL]
(Please note I don't personally have any knowledge of the intricacies of how the NOC classifications work in such instances, I'm just relaying the Doug Gill email.)
If anyone wants to check out the exact text, here is where the email was posted: [URL=http://www.imprezawrxsti.com/postnuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1949&start=15&sid=ad800213b7f21cd523297377762c42bc]Imprezawrxsti[/URL]
| KC | 10-22-2003 04:10 PM |
Sorry.. not valid, or else the STi and WRX would be in the same Stock class.
Just like the Mustang Cobra and GT are in different classes.... unless the model listing in SP has a specific year range or (all) it's ONLY the 'WRX' as we know from DS, not a combination of both. :)
Or going another direction on this...
Mistubishi Eclipse (Turbo) in ESP vs. Mitsubishi Eclipse (FWD) in FSP. They're both eclipses. The Turbo just a 'better Eclipse'. :D
The parenthesis at the end tell what (specific) model can come play in the class. ;)
--kC
Just like the Mustang Cobra and GT are in different classes.... unless the model listing in SP has a specific year range or (all) it's ONLY the 'WRX' as we know from DS, not a combination of both. :)
Or going another direction on this...
Mistubishi Eclipse (Turbo) in ESP vs. Mitsubishi Eclipse (FWD) in FSP. They're both eclipses. The Turbo just a 'better Eclipse'. :D
The parenthesis at the end tell what (specific) model can come play in the class. ;)
--kC
| trhoppe | 10-22-2003 04:13 PM |
Quit arguing ladies :lol:
Actually they are all imprezas.
The 2.5RS, WRX, and WRX Sti are all different trim levels of an impreza model. Trim levels are classed in different classes though. Just like currently the GT-S (trim) Celica (model) is in DS while the GT (trim) Celica (model) is in GS.
-Tom
Actually they are all imprezas.
The 2.5RS, WRX, and WRX Sti are all different trim levels of an impreza model. Trim levels are classed in different classes though. Just like currently the GT-S (trim) Celica (model) is in DS while the GT (trim) Celica (model) is in GS.
-Tom
| zzyzx | 10-22-2003 04:21 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Sorry.. not valid, or else the STi and WRX would be in the same Stock class.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Per Doug's response provided above, you could run it in ESP for now. BTW, that is the Solo Tech Directors job - to clarify such things - and he most certainly did.
- Steve
[B]Sorry.. not valid, or else the STi and WRX would be in the same Stock class.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Per Doug's response provided above, you could run it in ESP for now. BTW, that is the Solo Tech Directors job - to clarify such things - and he most certainly did.
- Steve
| ChrisW | 10-22-2003 04:56 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Just like the Mustang Cobra and GT are in different classes.... unless the model listing in SP has a specific year range or (all) it's ONLY the 'WRX' as we know from DS, not a combination of both. :)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
I think that interpretation is wrong (pulls up skirt) yes mustang cobras and GT are in different classes, just like the difference between the V6 and V8 normally aspirated models.
your analogy on the Mitsubishi is good too, but can be extended to work with my argument :devil: Since you maintain the turbo model DSM is "better" then why are the AWD and FWD turbo DSM's in ESP? according to your logic, they should be in separate classes because of the difference in performance (FWD vs AWD)
Also, why does the STI have a WRX badge on the trunk? :banana:
[B]Just like the Mustang Cobra and GT are in different classes.... unless the model listing in SP has a specific year range or (all) it's ONLY the 'WRX' as we know from DS, not a combination of both. :)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
I think that interpretation is wrong (pulls up skirt) yes mustang cobras and GT are in different classes, just like the difference between the V6 and V8 normally aspirated models.
your analogy on the Mitsubishi is good too, but can be extended to work with my argument :devil: Since you maintain the turbo model DSM is "better" then why are the AWD and FWD turbo DSM's in ESP? according to your logic, they should be in separate classes because of the difference in performance (FWD vs AWD)
Also, why does the STI have a WRX badge on the trunk? :banana:
| trhoppe | 10-22-2003 05:01 PM |
[QUOTE]Also, why does the STI have a WRX badge on the trunk?[/QUOTE] Because its a WRX STi, but because of that "STi" in there it is a different TRIM LEVEL. Because of that its not automatically in the same class. The FWD and AWD DSMs are listed in the rulebook as GSX AND GST being in ESP.
-Tom
-Tom
| ChrisW | 10-22-2003 05:21 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Because its a WRX STi, but because of that "STi" in there it is a different TRIM LEVEL. Because of that its not automatically in the same class. The FWD and AWD DSMs are listed in the rulebook as GSX AND GST being in ESP.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Ok, so what's the difference between the trim level of the Mustang Cobra and the Mustang GT? just different trim levels right? It's still a ford mustang anyway you look at it.
It's the same with the WRX vs STI argument. because there is no year classification on the WRX line in the rules only implies [i]that until further notice[/i] the STI is [i]temporarily[/i] classed in ESP until a final decision is made. It's not an FSP car because technically it's a factory upgraded WRX trim level, and [i]all[/i] USDM WRX models for all years are currently classed in ESP.
hopefully this can be done before the new rules are printed for next season. :cool:
[B]Because its a WRX STi, but because of that "STi" in there it is a different TRIM LEVEL. Because of that its not automatically in the same class. The FWD and AWD DSMs are listed in the rulebook as GSX AND GST being in ESP.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Ok, so what's the difference between the trim level of the Mustang Cobra and the Mustang GT? just different trim levels right? It's still a ford mustang anyway you look at it.
It's the same with the WRX vs STI argument. because there is no year classification on the WRX line in the rules only implies [i]that until further notice[/i] the STI is [i]temporarily[/i] classed in ESP until a final decision is made. It's not an FSP car because technically it's a factory upgraded WRX trim level, and [i]all[/i] USDM WRX models for all years are currently classed in ESP.
hopefully this can be done before the new rules are printed for next season. :cool:
| mlambert | 10-22-2003 07:43 PM |
and they are all just impreza's if you want to look at it that way
| MNbiker | 10-22-2003 10:39 PM |
Geez, it's scary :eek: everyone's getting this bored already. The season's barely over (or almost over, for those in warmer climates), and we've already sunk to the depths of pointless bench racing......:rolleyes:
The bottom line is the STi isn't even eligible for National competition in SP, until the SEB publishes a class for it. And even then, they have 12 months to change that class - so whatever gets published in January (assuming they get it out that soon) could very well be changed mid-season.
OK, you guys can resume the squabbling now....:lol: :lol:
The bottom line is the STi isn't even eligible for National competition in SP, until the SEB publishes a class for it. And even then, they have 12 months to change that class - so whatever gets published in January (assuming they get it out that soon) could very well be changed mid-season.
OK, you guys can resume the squabbling now....:lol: :lol:
| ChrisW | 10-23-2003 11:01 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]
OK, you guys can resume the squabbling now....:lol: :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
Or we could try going back on topic :p
So what you need to do is find another IC. A really cool thing you could do is add water injection on the IC. While not in the ideal place for the injector, it would allow you to run the engine a little harder. you could combine that with a different unichip (or what ever piggyback ECU you use) programmed to use the water injection.
The only problem area for switching between STX and ESP is the available brake upgrade options between the 2 classes. In ESP you can tweak the brake booster, but not the caliper. Ony recently have the rules been changed to allow for slotted or drilled rotors. So no StopTek brake kits. No STI brake upgrades (unless we can use update/backdate rules :banana: ) No upgraded calipers, period [SIZE=1](please, please, please, prove me wrong:( )[/SIZE]
[B]
OK, you guys can resume the squabbling now....:lol: :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
Or we could try going back on topic :p
So what you need to do is find another IC. A really cool thing you could do is add water injection on the IC. While not in the ideal place for the injector, it would allow you to run the engine a little harder. you could combine that with a different unichip (or what ever piggyback ECU you use) programmed to use the water injection.
The only problem area for switching between STX and ESP is the available brake upgrade options between the 2 classes. In ESP you can tweak the brake booster, but not the caliper. Ony recently have the rules been changed to allow for slotted or drilled rotors. So no StopTek brake kits. No STI brake upgrades (unless we can use update/backdate rules :banana: ) No upgraded calipers, period [SIZE=1](please, please, please, prove me wrong:( )[/SIZE]
| KC | 10-23-2003 11:30 AM |
Not running any engine management. Stock ECU. :) Nor do I plan on it ESPECIALLY in ESP. Best to take away the 'but he's boosting!' arguement/fear/obsession they have had for years and still do.
Right now, without the tires/wheels, my car is 100% ESP legal. That's why I'm going to do it.
My calipers are stock, ran them that way all this year. ;)
--KC
Right now, without the tires/wheels, my car is 100% ESP legal. That's why I'm going to do it.
My calipers are stock, ran them that way all this year. ;)
--KC
| trhoppe | 10-23-2003 11:45 AM |
Stock calipers are good enough for autox, track, one lap, anything except all out roadracing....its the pads ;) You won't stop any faster with the blingin' stoptechs either....
-Tom
-Tom
| zosima | 10-23-2003 12:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]
Right now, without the tires/wheels, my car is 100% ESP legal. That's why I'm going to do it.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Maybe I don't understand what a "torque suppression device" is, but aren't your motor mounts illegal in ESP?
[B]
Right now, without the tires/wheels, my car is 100% ESP legal. That's why I'm going to do it.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Maybe I don't understand what a "torque suppression device" is, but aren't your motor mounts illegal in ESP?
| PaulC | 10-23-2003 12:31 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zosima [/i]
[B]Maybe I don't understand what a "torque suppression device" is, but aren't your motor mounts illegal in ESP? [/B][/QUOTE]
Torque supression device would be a rod or strap from the engine to the chassis to keep the motor in place, I think.
Motor mounts are motor mounts and up until this year were illegal in SP classes. But they recently changed it so for the '04 season they should be legal. Last I saw it was a provisional rule change but it might be approved by now, we'll see in the new rulebooks. STS/STX got the same rule AFAIK also.
[B]Maybe I don't understand what a "torque suppression device" is, but aren't your motor mounts illegal in ESP? [/B][/QUOTE]
Torque supression device would be a rod or strap from the engine to the chassis to keep the motor in place, I think.
Motor mounts are motor mounts and up until this year were illegal in SP classes. But they recently changed it so for the '04 season they should be legal. Last I saw it was a provisional rule change but it might be approved by now, we'll see in the new rulebooks. STS/STX got the same rule AFAIK also.
| zosima | 10-23-2003 01:29 PM |
PaulC - thanks
Would this new rule apply to transmission mounts as well? Actually, now that I look at the rules again, are tranny mounts allowed in STX? From the "STX Mods: Present and future - list 'em!" thread both I and thechickencow have them on our cars, but in re-reading the rules this might be illegal? And I think I threw away the old mount :(. Someone tell me these are actually legal so I don't have to invest in an OEM part for next year!
Would this new rule apply to transmission mounts as well? Actually, now that I look at the rules again, are tranny mounts allowed in STX? From the "STX Mods: Present and future - list 'em!" thread both I and thechickencow have them on our cars, but in re-reading the rules this might be illegal? And I think I threw away the old mount :(. Someone tell me these are actually legal so I don't have to invest in an OEM part for next year!
| KC | 10-23-2003 02:15 PM |
Hmmm... I don't have a rule book in front of me, and Moutons doesn't list tranny mounts (I don't have them anyways) but I kinda thought they're legal in STX.
Anyone got a rule book handy?
--KC
Anyone got a rule book handy?
--KC
| ChrisW | 10-23-2003 02:34 PM |
Got my rule book
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Hmmm... I don't have a rule book in front of me, and Moutons doesn't list tranny mounts (I don't have them anyways) but I kinda thought they're legal in STX.
Anyone got a rule book handy?
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
sorry dude...
[quote][i]14.10.I[/i]
One bolt-on torque suppression device may be used. A torque suppression device attaches from the engine to the body, frame, or subframe in one location, and controls engine movement at that location along a single axis only. It may serve no other purpose.
Examples of permitted devices:
) a chain
) a rod with spherical bearings at each end.
Examples of devices not permitted:
) one or more solid motor mounts
) any link which confines movement along more than one axis
) an engine mounting plate, or one or more plates rigidly bolted between the engine and the frame.
Holes may be drilled to mount a torque suppression device. The installation may not include the welding of any plate(s) to the motor mount(s) or bodywork (7/2002), nor may it include multiple non-parallel links.
[b]This does not allow motor mount changes other than those which are update/backdates of factory components.
[/b][/quote]
There is no mention of tranny mounts, so I guess they are not allowed.
This is unfortunetly the same for STX. In STX your allowed to update the pitchrod and motor mounts, but not the tranny mounts
[B]Hmmm... I don't have a rule book in front of me, and Moutons doesn't list tranny mounts (I don't have them anyways) but I kinda thought they're legal in STX.
Anyone got a rule book handy?
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
sorry dude...
[quote][i]14.10.I[/i]
One bolt-on torque suppression device may be used. A torque suppression device attaches from the engine to the body, frame, or subframe in one location, and controls engine movement at that location along a single axis only. It may serve no other purpose.
Examples of permitted devices:
) a chain
) a rod with spherical bearings at each end.
Examples of devices not permitted:
) one or more solid motor mounts
) any link which confines movement along more than one axis
) an engine mounting plate, or one or more plates rigidly bolted between the engine and the frame.
Holes may be drilled to mount a torque suppression device. The installation may not include the welding of any plate(s) to the motor mount(s) or bodywork (7/2002), nor may it include multiple non-parallel links.
[b]This does not allow motor mount changes other than those which are update/backdates of factory components.
[/b][/quote]
There is no mention of tranny mounts, so I guess they are not allowed.
This is unfortunetly the same for STX. In STX your allowed to update the pitchrod and motor mounts, but not the tranny mounts
| KC | 10-23-2003 02:40 PM |
[B][I]Overruled![/I][/B] [GAVEL]:p
August '03 Fastrack P192:
Solo II Street Prepared Category
The following rule change proposals are submitted for member comment:
Item 6) Effective 1/1/04, add the following as a new section 14.10.I (And re-letter subsequent sections accordingly):
"Engine mounts may be replaced, but must attach in the factory location(s)..." <snip> (go find the rest yourself). Hehe
Ow3nD! ;) (If they do pass it which I don't see why they wouldn't)
August '03 Fastrack P192:
Solo II Street Prepared Category
The following rule change proposals are submitted for member comment:
Item 6) Effective 1/1/04, add the following as a new section 14.10.I (And re-letter subsequent sections accordingly):
"Engine mounts may be replaced, but must attach in the factory location(s)..." <snip> (go find the rest yourself). Hehe
Ow3nD! ;) (If they do pass it which I don't see why they wouldn't)
| zoomfactor | 10-23-2003 02:56 PM |
[QUOTE]Best to take away the 'but he's boosting!' arguement/fear/obsession they have had for years and still do.[/QUOTE]
Yes, yes...those poor souls with 350+hp
Yes, yes...those poor souls with 350+hp
| Warp3 | 10-23-2003 02:59 PM |
Unfortunately "tranny mounts" are not explicitly mentioned in the rulebook anywhere and "if it doesn't say you can, you can't". As far as I can determine they would fall under "drivetrain bushings" which can't be changed in ST or SP and would require a jump to SM. Maybe someone should email the SEB and try to get tranny mounts in the same rule with engine mounts?
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
DSP 729 (next year: SM 729) -- CCar Region
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
DSP 729 (next year: SM 729) -- CCar Region
| zosima | 10-23-2003 04:25 PM |
bummer :(. How do you get in touch with the SEB? What exactly would I say (I suppose I would have to explain that it is as common as engine mounts and there is no performance benefit). Would it be worth mentioning other "illegal" mods that we would like to be legalized? The two that come to mind are 1) removal of the plastic underbody sheild to facilitate installing headers and 2) removal of the turbo heatshield to allow use of a bellmouth dp. thoughts? Anyone up for handholding? :)
[edit]
crap! I think I am also illegal for the karboy shifter bushings :mad:... better ask if they will allow those, unless someone can point out these are legal too
[/edit]
[edit]
crap! I think I am also illegal for the karboy shifter bushings :mad:... better ask if they will allow those, unless someone can point out these are legal too
[/edit]
| MNbiker | 10-23-2003 07:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zosima [/i]
crap! I think I am also illegal for the karboy shifter bushings :mad:... better ask if they will allow those, unless someone can point out these are legal too
[/QUOTE]
Short throw shift kits are legal, per 17.10.E.
IMHO you'd be OK if you have the Kartboy shift lever & bushings, as they can be purchased as a kit. However, I'm not aware of any other short shift kit that comes with replacement bushings, unless the Subaru SPT kit replaces the bushings. Not sure what the legality would be with the bushings only, or bushings with someone else's short shift kit.
-Steve
crap! I think I am also illegal for the karboy shifter bushings :mad:... better ask if they will allow those, unless someone can point out these are legal too
[/QUOTE]
Short throw shift kits are legal, per 17.10.E.
IMHO you'd be OK if you have the Kartboy shift lever & bushings, as they can be purchased as a kit. However, I'm not aware of any other short shift kit that comes with replacement bushings, unless the Subaru SPT kit replaces the bushings. Not sure what the legality would be with the bushings only, or bushings with someone else's short shift kit.
-Steve
| zoomfactor | 10-23-2003 08:53 PM |
If a short-throw shifter is allowed, which changes the functionality of the shifter; couldn't you argue that shifter bushings would fall under comfort & convenience, since they only change the "feel" -- not the functionality?
It seems that shifter bushings would certainly be in the spirit of the rules...or are we back to the "if it doesn't say you can -- you can't" argument?
It seems that shifter bushings would certainly be in the spirit of the rules...or are we back to the "if it doesn't say you can -- you can't" argument?
| Warp3 | 10-23-2003 09:28 PM |
In Street Prepared, you have the "any mechanical shift-linkage" rule and in Street Touring the "short-shift kit" rule. The fact that the FULL short-shift kits (ie. STi, SYMS, etc.) include the bushing in question and it is a part of the shifting mechanism, I see no reason why it shouldn't be legal in both ST and SP categories.
At least, that's the argument I always used for my CUSCO shifter bushings... :lol:
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
DSP 729 (next year, SM 729) -- CCar Region
At least, that's the argument I always used for my CUSCO shifter bushings... :lol:
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
DSP 729 (next year, SM 729) -- CCar Region
| zosima | 10-24-2003 10:13 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]Not sure what the legality would be with the bushings only, or bushings with someone else's short shift kit.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I have the dealer-installed short shift kit, the bushings I installed later. At least this is another point that would be nice to see clarified.
[B]Not sure what the legality would be with the bushings only, or bushings with someone else's short shift kit.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I have the dealer-installed short shift kit, the bushings I installed later. At least this is another point that would be nice to see clarified.
| KC | 10-24-2003 10:27 AM |
Doesn't need to be clarified. I beleive it stands to reason that if short shift kits are legal, then bushings are too.
--KC
--KC
| zosima | 10-24-2003 03:35 PM |
thanks KC... still need to figure out what to do about the tranny mounts. See you tommorrow at Devens
| TheWRX | 10-24-2003 07:14 PM |
About the intercooler hoses, this is an entry from a list of items that the SEB wants resolved before making STX an offical class:
[QUOTE]17.10.B Air induction systems
define limitations, NA vs forced induction[/QUOTE]
Full list and details here: [url]http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000679[/url].
[QUOTE]17.10.B Air induction systems
define limitations, NA vs forced induction[/QUOTE]
Full list and details here: [url]http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000679[/url].
| gbwrx | 03-03-2004 11:34 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheWRX [/i]
[B]About the intercooler hoses, this is an entry from a list of items that the SEB wants resolved before making STX an offical class:
Full list and details here: [url]http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000679[/url]. [/B][/QUOTE]
Any word on the ic hoses?:confused:
[B]About the intercooler hoses, this is an entry from a list of items that the SEB wants resolved before making STX an offical class:
Full list and details here: [url]http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000679[/url]. [/B][/QUOTE]
Any word on the ic hoses?:confused:
| KC | 03-04-2004 08:02 AM |
IC hoses are not legal.
Jan-04 Fastrack, Pg F-7. 3rd column:
[QUOTE]6) Street Touring: 14.10.B is clarified to read, "The air intake system up to, but not including, the engine inlet may be modified or replaced. For naturally aspirated engines, the engine inlet is the inlet to the throttle body or carburetor. For turbocharged or supercharged engines, the engine inlet is the compressor inlet."[/Quote]
Jan-04 Fastrack, Pg F-7. 3rd column:
[QUOTE]6) Street Touring: 14.10.B is clarified to read, "The air intake system up to, but not including, the engine inlet may be modified or replaced. For naturally aspirated engines, the engine inlet is the inlet to the throttle body or carburetor. For turbocharged or supercharged engines, the engine inlet is the compressor inlet."[/Quote]
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