| turboICE | 02-07-2005 08:21 PM |
What happens when you give up the feedback of an STi for the vagueness of an MR.
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[url]http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=121557[/url]
| adhowe70 | 02-07-2005 08:33 PM |
I don't think this has much to do with the model of car being driven. Given the circumstances, it could have just as easily been an STi. Or a Corvette. Or a Miata. Or... you get the idea.
No pun, but **** happens. Just be happy that everyone is OK and that SCCA isn't fielding a multi-million dollar lawsuit.
Andy H.
No pun, but **** happens. Just be happy that everyone is OK and that SCCA isn't fielding a multi-million dollar lawsuit.
Andy H.
| 1984 | 02-07-2005 09:30 PM |
Wow. Someone had a really bad day.
| 8Complex | 02-07-2005 09:37 PM |
I drove an Evo and I can hardly say it is vague. Unless they detuned it for the MR version, I highly doubt that is the case.
Here is a thought, maybe it was just an accident and completely due to the driver's abilities and reactions.
Edit: Sorry, arguementitive mood at the moment. :)
Here is a thought, maybe it was just an accident and completely due to the driver's abilities and reactions.
Edit: Sorry, arguementitive mood at the moment. :)
| turboICE | 02-07-2005 11:55 PM |
I know him and why it happened - to some extent I am busting his n#ts because he sold his STi and bought the Evo.
I actually find the MR very balanced and handles extremely well and also it does a ton to catch bad driving on track (not a good thing for learning to drive on track) - but it severly lacks feedback that is what I mean by vague. I know how to drive them just feel seperated from the road almost like I am in a huge luxury sedan compared to the STi which is very informative in the seat of the pants.
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album114/IMG_3240.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album114/IMG_3241.jpg[/img]
That is me driving his first one. He didn't like the color, so he got the darker one (the one that owned the portapotty), and apparently he replaced it tonight with another one... #3.
I actually find the MR very balanced and handles extremely well and also it does a ton to catch bad driving on track (not a good thing for learning to drive on track) - but it severly lacks feedback that is what I mean by vague. I know how to drive them just feel seperated from the road almost like I am in a huge luxury sedan compared to the STi which is very informative in the seat of the pants.
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album114/IMG_3240.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album114/IMG_3241.jpg[/img]
That is me driving his first one. He didn't like the color, so he got the darker one (the one that owned the portapotty), and apparently he replaced it tonight with another one... #3.
| 1984 | 02-08-2005 12:03 AM |
What does your friend do for a living? He changes Evo's more often than I change my socks.
| turboICE | 02-08-2005 12:12 AM |
Not just Evo's - I think he has pictures of dealers in LV or something.
Might want to do something about that sock changing frequency though! ;)
Might want to do something about that sock changing frequency though! ;)
| KC | 02-08-2005 08:07 AM |
Just reading that thrad makes me cringe.
Why was he on R compounds if the temps were in the 40s/50s and snow on the ground? asafetystewardsayswhat?
Why was he on R compounds if the temps were in the 40s/50s and snow on the ground? asafetystewardsayswhat?
| turboICE | 02-08-2005 09:00 AM |
Yeah twas a bad bad idea - no hope of reaching operating temperature.
| CirrusWRX | 02-08-2005 10:09 AM |
No way?!?!?! :lol:
Since all the poop puns have been taken, I'll let it go, but dayam!!!! I swear he prints money in his basement :devil:
Can't figure out what made him think the R's were the way to go, regardless of the surface, the temps couldn't have been much above 35 degrees anyway...
Since all the poop puns have been taken, I'll let it go, but dayam!!!! I swear he prints money in his basement :devil:
Can't figure out what made him think the R's were the way to go, regardless of the surface, the temps couldn't have been much above 35 degrees anyway...
| CamaroFS34 | 02-08-2005 10:58 AM |
[QUOTE=CirrusWRX]Can't figure out what made him think the R's were the way to go, regardless of the surface, the temps couldn't have been much above 35 degrees anyway...[/QUOTE]
Actually, at the time he ran, the ambient temp was near 50, and the "line" (so to speak) was pretty much clear, just wet. The only places where there was still slush were the slalom, and just after the finish.
Karen
[i]yes, i was there[/i]
Actually, at the time he ran, the ambient temp was near 50, and the "line" (so to speak) was pretty much clear, just wet. The only places where there was still slush were the slalom, and just after the finish.
Karen
[i]yes, i was there[/i]
| V6TurboTA | 02-08-2005 11:05 AM |
[img]http://s90720191.onlinehome.us/philly-autocross1.jpg[/img]
Hahaha look at that poor toilet...
and the poor Port-a-potty too :lol:
~v6
Hahaha look at that poor toilet...
and the poor Port-a-potty too :lol:
~v6
| KC | 02-08-2005 11:29 AM |
[QUOTE=CamaroFS34]Actually, at the time he ran, the ambient temp was near 50, and the "line" (so to speak) was pretty much clear, just wet. The only places where there was still slush were the slalom, and just after the finish.
Karen
[i]yes, i was there[/i][/QUOTE]
Still... why was he on R's? Even when wet and cold (50 is cold)... it's definitely not recommended.
Karen
[i]yes, i was there[/i][/QUOTE]
Still... why was he on R's? Even when wet and cold (50 is cold)... it's definitely not recommended.
| REX8 | 02-08-2005 11:30 AM |
Was this at a Philly event in Baltimore? Poor Dan, hope he's not in trouble. Those guys run a safe ship over there. This must have been shameful driving. You'd think a guy spending the money on R's would have had more of a clue.
Good thing no one was hurt, thats not the kind of stuff our local guys need though, its hard enough to get a good lot these days...
John
45 A-Mod
88 DS
Good thing no one was hurt, thats not the kind of stuff our local guys need though, its hard enough to get a good lot these days...
John
45 A-Mod
88 DS
| turboICE | 02-08-2005 11:49 AM |
Not sure what Maron was thinking but I am sure he thought it would be OK - turned out wrong.
It was at Ripken Stadium - so Aberdeen, MD.
It was at Ripken Stadium - so Aberdeen, MD.
| KC | 02-08-2005 11:55 AM |
When you have an r-compound that the driver drives on in warmer, dryer events, they're never going to get the heat in them they need lower than 60ish degrees on an auto-x.
On a track day... they'll get some heat... but when it's 50 at best (pavement is still colder than 50)... bad decision is right.
Sorry to hear of it happening.
--kC
On a track day... they'll get some heat... but when it's 50 at best (pavement is still colder than 50)... bad decision is right.
Sorry to hear of it happening.
--kC
| zzyzx | 02-08-2005 01:25 PM |
How was the lucky person who got a ride in the porta-potty? They OK?
| KC | 02-08-2005 01:46 PM |
[QUOTE=zzyzx]How was the lucky person who got a ride in the porta-potty? They OK?[/QUOTE]
According to the thread on evo-m he's fine.
(Until he gets tested for some disease the blue water didn't kill)
According to the thread on evo-m he's fine.
(Until he gets tested for some disease the blue water didn't kill)
| robmarch | 02-08-2005 03:28 PM |
did he get both port-o-johns? did they start next to each other?
| CamaroFS34 | 02-08-2005 03:45 PM |
Yeah, they were side-by-side. He kind of hit them in the middle, between the two.
Karen
Karen
| trojan9x | 02-08-2005 04:19 PM |
I just am pretty disappointed in the fact that most of you were voicing more concern for the car than the poor guy inside. Cars can be replaced, people can not. Luckily he was ok and released the same night from the hospital, but it's still just a matter of human decency.
Tom
Tom
| robmarch | 02-08-2005 04:27 PM |
[QUOTE=trojan9x]I just am pretty disappointed in the fact that most of you were voicing more concern for the car than the poor guy inside. Cars can be replaced, people can not. Luckily he was ok and released the same night from the hospital, but it's still just a matter of human decency.
Tom[/QUOTE]
must have been a pretty scary experience. I'm certainly glad everyone's ok, and hope everyone learns a bit from the situation. I know I have.
Tom[/QUOTE]
must have been a pretty scary experience. I'm certainly glad everyone's ok, and hope everyone learns a bit from the situation. I know I have.
| turboICE | 02-08-2005 04:33 PM |
I am not sure that I see where anyone has expressed concern for the car at all in this thread, less likely in preference to the person on the pot - more concern over why the driver was using R's and apparently the condition of the port-a-potties themselves.
| AWMIII | 02-08-2005 05:17 PM |
I would sue the crap out of the driver. He is not a rookie and seriously negligent for running R tires. Maybe a safety steward in perfect circumstances might notice and make him change. The one lesson is that stuff does happen in autox. It does not happen very often. I have spun many times and I have also slid much further than the scca minimums. The key is to get out of it and let the car come around. Then stop as quickly as possible. The internet myth that you just stay on the gas in an awd car and let the awd pull you out does not work with a high-strung turbo car. It is just way to hard to modulate the torque. This was not a 2.5rs. We have gotten to a point where some of the stock cars are too easy to get going too fast. When I started autoxing, the 2.5rs were like the only awd cars running. And no offense meant to the owners, but they are slow in a straight line compared to todays fast awd cars. The really fast cars then were all 2wd and could not put the power down like an awd car in less than optimal conditions. This lack of traction averted tragedy many times. The faster the car the more dangerous. The scca banks on the fact that people who run Amod cars have some experience. The minimum distance requirements do not come close for the really fast cars. If a real amod were to get loose, it would spin into the next state unless it hit something. Our safety rules require the driver to use a fair amount of judgement. In this case given the driver's comments in the other forum, I believe that the blame and liability lies squarely on his shoulders. Thats my 2 cents.
| Butt Dyno | 02-08-2005 06:37 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Still... why was he on R's? [/quote]
[url]http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.php?p=1628567&postcount=26[/url]
[quote=Maron]Again since I am very competitive and does not take no for an answer, I decided to run on my Rs anyway especially when the snow on the course was really starting to melt.[/quote]There's your answer..
[url]http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.php?p=1628567&postcount=26[/url]
[quote=Maron]Again since I am very competitive and does not take no for an answer, I decided to run on my Rs anyway especially when the snow on the course was really starting to melt.[/quote]There's your answer..
| KC | 02-08-2005 06:51 PM |
Who told him 'no'? If it was a safety or operating steward of the event, then the club shouldn't be covering the incident under their ins. policy and the guy in the potty should go after the driver... because, in not so many words, it sounds like he may hav ebeen told no.
Be careful what you write in the internet... it can come back and haunt you.
--kC
Be careful what you write in the internet... it can come back and haunt you.
--kC
| REX8 | 02-08-2005 07:36 PM |
Regardless of the stewarts involvement, if his tires were too cold, he'd know it. First corner, first run, hed know, or at least he should have. Temp is no excuse, you should always drive within the means of your equipment and your ability. And as all autocrossers (or at least us in the philly group), people run r's in the winter series all the time.
I've ran an A-Mod in philly many times, not on autocross r's either, on goodyear slicks (on a 400 lb. car none the less). Talk about a need for heat. The philly guys always set up safe courses and always do a great job with their safety. I hope nothing major comes out of this.
I've ran an A-Mod in philly many times, not on autocross r's either, on goodyear slicks (on a 400 lb. car none the less). Talk about a need for heat. The philly guys always set up safe courses and always do a great job with their safety. I hope nothing major comes out of this.
| subi_2.5rs | 02-08-2005 08:25 PM |
damn rich boy.....paying everything like its free....he dont deserve that car....
| adhowe70 | 02-08-2005 08:30 PM |
The club won't necessarily cover any property damage. SCCA's insurance policy doesn't cover that. Its only an umbrella to cover the club's assets, not shelter individual members from the consequences of their own actions.
At our regional events we state in the driver's meeting, "You are responsible for your any damages you incur to your property, the club's property, or anyone else's property." As a club, we have billed members for damages.
At our regional events we state in the driver's meeting, "You are responsible for your any damages you incur to your property, the club's property, or anyone else's property." As a club, we have billed members for damages.
| KC | 02-08-2005 08:55 PM |
Ahhh good to know. I thought there was an umbrealla to cover certain incidents like this.
--KC
--KC
| AUTOwrXER | 02-08-2005 09:55 PM |
Property damage is covered up to $5M. Personal property is not.
I'm reserving my opinion on this one. FWIW, we cancel events for snow in ATL (of course, the whole city shuts down anyway ;))
I'm reserving my opinion on this one. FWIW, we cancel events for snow in ATL (of course, the whole city shuts down anyway ;))
| dwx | 02-08-2005 09:57 PM |
Well if the owner of the porta-potty decided to try and sue the land owner, driver, or SCCA for the damage to their porta-potty, that is why the SCCA has specific property liability coverage. This was before my time, but the guys here always talk about making a claim at the old county stadium when I believe Mike Bullis ran his car into a light pole. It was 3-4k to fix and I know whoever hit it didn't pay for it.
All property damage incidents like the above are supposed to be reported to the SCCA via the safety steward, no matter whose property it is.
All property damage incidents like the above are supposed to be reported to the SCCA via the safety steward, no matter whose property it is.
| adhowe70 | 02-08-2005 10:12 PM |
Hmmm... our region (Oregon) bills the driver for damage to Club and 3rd party property. I believe Northwest Region does as well. For this reason, I've always believed that damages came out of the driver's pocket first and SCCA's umbrella insurance only if necessary. Of course the driver is SOL for help regarding his own property.
I will admit that I've never held the insurance document in my hand and read it. It could be that our region is employing a policy that keeps paperwork down... "don't make a claim unless its serious." The paperwork for reporting an incident is bad enough, can you imagine the claim forms? *shivers*
I will admit that I've never held the insurance document in my hand and read it. It could be that our region is employing a policy that keeps paperwork down... "don't make a claim unless its serious." The paperwork for reporting an incident is bad enough, can you imagine the claim forms? *shivers*
| AUTOwrXER | 02-09-2005 12:07 AM |
I had to do paperwork 3 times last year. It sucks. Never had to do a claim though, thank God.
| 2WDrift | 02-09-2005 02:15 AM |
[QUOTE=AWMIII]I would sue the crap out of the driver. He is not a rookie and seriously negligent for running R tires...[/QUOTE]
While most agree with the facts, bringing a lawsuit will most likely end up hurting the SCCA and motorsports more than affecting the driver. We don't need any more negative publicity than already is out there. Same for letting this thread go too far, the Philly SCCA has requested / other boards have done moderation / closure to keep speculation from becoming insurance fodder.
Gary
WDCR EMod
spins but hasn't hit anything
While most agree with the facts, bringing a lawsuit will most likely end up hurting the SCCA and motorsports more than affecting the driver. We don't need any more negative publicity than already is out there. Same for letting this thread go too far, the Philly SCCA has requested / other boards have done moderation / closure to keep speculation from becoming insurance fodder.
Gary
WDCR EMod
spins but hasn't hit anything
| crofrog | 02-09-2005 03:52 AM |
[QUOTE=2WDrift]While most agree with the facts, bringing a lawsuit will most likely end up hurting the SCCA and motorsports more than affecting the driver. We don't need any more negative publicity than already is out there. Same for letting this thread go too far, the Philly SCCA has requested / other boards have done moderation / closure to keep speculation from becoming insurance fodder.
Gary
WDCR EMod
spins but hasn't hit anything[/QUOTE]
I couldn't agree more. It is already getting really hard to find lots in the area.
Cheers,
Chris
Gary
WDCR EMod
spins but hasn't hit anything[/QUOTE]
I couldn't agree more. It is already getting really hard to find lots in the area.
Cheers,
Chris
| robmarch | 02-09-2005 07:50 AM |
discussing the process is ok, and learning from it, but speculation on fault and the like aren't really helpful, and are what the philly region scca is trying to cut down on, from what I've seen.
it does help drivers and organizers to learn what happens when there is an incident, though, in my opinion.
it does help drivers and organizers to learn what happens when there is an incident, though, in my opinion.
| anti.team | 02-09-2005 08:18 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]When you have an r-compound that the driver drives on in warmer, dryer events, they're never going to get the heat in them they need lower than 60ish degrees on an auto-x.
On a track day... they'll get some heat... but when it's 50 at best (pavement is still colder than 50)... bad decision is right.
Sorry to hear of it happening.
--kC[/QUOTE]
I just read the thread on Evolutsionm.net - way to stick it to him, KC.
That guy seems very unremorseful. What a dick.
On a track day... they'll get some heat... but when it's 50 at best (pavement is still colder than 50)... bad decision is right.
Sorry to hear of it happening.
--kC[/QUOTE]
I just read the thread on Evolutsionm.net - way to stick it to him, KC.
That guy seems very unremorseful. What a dick.
| KC | 02-09-2005 08:54 AM |
And there are people saying it's fine. (I'm going to respond to one of them right now)
| dwx | 02-09-2005 09:22 AM |
As much as it's a bad idea to run those tires in the cold, I've seen guys run them in the wet too, which is probably even worse. At national events. It's like blaming the RE92s on a crash, it was his lack of car control ability that made him hit the portapotty. Maybe the tires didn't help, but they weren't the #1 cause of his accident.
| KC | 02-09-2005 09:25 AM |
Snow and sand I would think hold a good portion of the blame. Sure.. the line might have been drying... but what if he was off the line just a hair? No amount of mad tite skillz yo! will save you with r-compounds on snow and the sand put there from other cars bringing it attached to their frames/wheelwells and dumping it out over bumps.
Ever looked at all the sand/salt stuck in the crevases in the wheel well in the winter?
--kC
Ever looked at all the sand/salt stuck in the crevases in the wheel well in the winter?
--kC
| crofrog | 02-09-2005 09:56 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]Snow and sand I would think hold a good portion of the blame. Sure.. the line might have been drying... but what if he was off the line just a hair? No amount of mad tite skillz yo! will save you with r-compounds on snow and the sand put there from other cars bringing it attached to their frames/wheelwells and dumping it out over bumps.
Ever looked at all the sand/salt stuck in the crevases in the wheel well in the winter?
--kC[/QUOTE]
I think we all agree that it was a bad idea he ran R-compounds. Obviously they are not the tire for when there is snow on the ground, but perhaps it would be better to let this die quietly if possible. Lets all take out safety lessons from it. I'm sure everyone who works tech from now on will think twice about passing that, but really we do not need this publicity in this area. We have a very good safety record so far, and do not need any bad publicity esp when we are trying to find more lots to utilize. Auto crossing in this entire area is getting into some seriously bad situation with regards to the availability of parking lots. Do in large part to a state law regarding the placement of trees and island's in parking lots. We are down to effectively 2 lots, for what is a very crowded region :(
Hopefully we will be able to find more lots to use so all the clubs in the region mine included can host a full season.
Cheers,
Chris
Ever looked at all the sand/salt stuck in the crevases in the wheel well in the winter?
--kC[/QUOTE]
I think we all agree that it was a bad idea he ran R-compounds. Obviously they are not the tire for when there is snow on the ground, but perhaps it would be better to let this die quietly if possible. Lets all take out safety lessons from it. I'm sure everyone who works tech from now on will think twice about passing that, but really we do not need this publicity in this area. We have a very good safety record so far, and do not need any bad publicity esp when we are trying to find more lots to utilize. Auto crossing in this entire area is getting into some seriously bad situation with regards to the availability of parking lots. Do in large part to a state law regarding the placement of trees and island's in parking lots. We are down to effectively 2 lots, for what is a very crowded region :(
Hopefully we will be able to find more lots to use so all the clubs in the region mine included can host a full season.
Cheers,
Chris
| KC | 02-09-2005 11:19 AM |
When multiplpe clubs (yes, more than one club uses that lot) lose the site due to the ignorance of one driver and subsequent accident, it affects all of us. And when same driver says "I don't care what anyone thinks, I'm going to run them again" it comes down to more the ORGANIZERS of said event and the safety stewards than tech. Tech checks that the equipment won't fail while on course and that you have numbers on the car. (And should catch corded tires). Not whether the tires are the proper ones for the course.
--kC
--kC
| crofrog | 02-09-2005 11:33 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]When multiplpe clubs (yes, more than one club uses that lot) lose the site due to the ignorance of one driver and subsequent accident, it affects all of us. And when same driver says "I don't care what anyone thinks, I'm going to run them again" it comes down to more the ORGANIZERS of said event and the safety stewards than tech. Tech checks that the equipment won't fail while on course and that you have numbers on the car. (And should catch corded tires). Not whether the tires are the proper ones for the course.
--kC[/QUOTE]
That is true, and yes more than one club uses that lot, in fact the use of the lot is vitial to the entire Metro Washington/MD area esp this season with the condition that Rosecroft is in. Hopefully my club will be able to put on 4 safe and successful events there this season.
Now why I agree it is ultimatly the saftey steward that should make the call. I feel the people working tech should bring it to his attention that some one might actually consider running r-compounds on a day like that. They had said in other places that Blizzaks were recommended but obviously they didn't require them. I just can't imagine thinking that the tires where going to stick on 30 degree pavement and when there was snow off the line. I wouldn't even really consider running a summer tire. Just a high preformance all season or snow tire. As for him being told not to run r-compounds but doing it any way. I wasn't at that event and really can't comment, but there hasn't been anything posted by any one that was conclusive one way or the other. I feel you have made your point though KC and further ranting on the subject is not doing much more than belabouring the point.
Cheers,
Chris
--kC[/QUOTE]
That is true, and yes more than one club uses that lot, in fact the use of the lot is vitial to the entire Metro Washington/MD area esp this season with the condition that Rosecroft is in. Hopefully my club will be able to put on 4 safe and successful events there this season.
Now why I agree it is ultimatly the saftey steward that should make the call. I feel the people working tech should bring it to his attention that some one might actually consider running r-compounds on a day like that. They had said in other places that Blizzaks were recommended but obviously they didn't require them. I just can't imagine thinking that the tires where going to stick on 30 degree pavement and when there was snow off the line. I wouldn't even really consider running a summer tire. Just a high preformance all season or snow tire. As for him being told not to run r-compounds but doing it any way. I wasn't at that event and really can't comment, but there hasn't been anything posted by any one that was conclusive one way or the other. I feel you have made your point though KC and further ranting on the subject is not doing much more than belabouring the point.
Cheers,
Chris
| KC | 02-09-2005 12:00 PM |
One more thing and I'm done...
"Last word". :p
"Last word". :p
| V6TurboTA | 02-09-2005 12:29 PM |
Nothing like going out of your way to see others suffer... consistantly...
~v6
~v6
| Draken | 02-09-2005 12:33 PM |
Ha. I can't agree about the "shouldn't have been running on R compounds" at the temps mentioned. As Andy H. can attest to, we've run plenty of Oregon events in sub 50, or even sub 40 degree temps on R compounds. Even in the wet. Obviously, some R tires are more affected by others. Hell, i ran on Kumhos at one Oregon Region event where it started to lightly snow during third runs. Set my fastest time that run.
Chris H.
Chris H.
| XT6Wagon | 02-09-2005 03:04 PM |
Draken, this course had packed snow on a good bit of the course.
More over, while I agree that R-compounds do work in the cold and wet to some extent, there is definitely a line where they suddenly go from "marginal" to "sweet! Who poured oil on my tires?!?"
That said I think this driver needs a "time out" to reflect on overdriving the car, and his resposiblity to the club, and its memebers. I know that when my car spins, even if its currently heading in a perfectly safe direction, I just bring it to as quick of a stop as possible, and not try to save it. Why? Well if you try to save it... it might just find some new interesting direction to go in.., a direction with Poles, concrete barriers, corner workes, timing equipment, etc.
Last Course design at many events needs to be improved. I know I've personaly went through the timing lights at one event VERY sideways in the STi, and most people at one time or another were just as close to completely spinning the car. A rallyX I went to, it was RARE for someone NOT to spin through the lights given the crap desgin. Not even a matter of comming in hot, just the natural result of trying to bring a car to a near complete stop while traversing a corner on very wet and very slick clay.
More over, while I agree that R-compounds do work in the cold and wet to some extent, there is definitely a line where they suddenly go from "marginal" to "sweet! Who poured oil on my tires?!?"
That said I think this driver needs a "time out" to reflect on overdriving the car, and his resposiblity to the club, and its memebers. I know that when my car spins, even if its currently heading in a perfectly safe direction, I just bring it to as quick of a stop as possible, and not try to save it. Why? Well if you try to save it... it might just find some new interesting direction to go in.., a direction with Poles, concrete barriers, corner workes, timing equipment, etc.
Last Course design at many events needs to be improved. I know I've personaly went through the timing lights at one event VERY sideways in the STi, and most people at one time or another were just as close to completely spinning the car. A rallyX I went to, it was RARE for someone NOT to spin through the lights given the crap desgin. Not even a matter of comming in hot, just the natural result of trying to bring a car to a near complete stop while traversing a corner on very wet and very slick clay.
| crofrog | 02-09-2005 04:08 PM |
[QUOTE=XT6Wagon]Draken, this course had packed snow on a good bit of the course.
More over, while I agree that R-compounds do work in the cold and wet to some extent, there is definitely a line where they suddenly go from "marginal" to "sweet! Who poured oil on my tires?!?"
That said I think this driver needs a "time out" to reflect on overdriving the car, and his resposiblity to the club, and its memebers. I know that when my car spins, even if its currently heading in a perfectly safe direction, I just bring it to as quick of a stop as possible, and not try to save it. Why? Well if you try to save it... it might just find some new interesting direction to go in.., a direction with Poles, concrete barriers, corner workes, timing equipment, etc.
Last Course design at many events needs to be improved. I know I've personaly went through the timing lights at one event VERY sideways in the STi, and most people at one time or another were just as close to completely spinning the car. A rallyX I went to, it was RARE for someone NOT to spin through the lights given the crap desgin. Not even a matter of comming in hot, just the natural result of trying to bring a car to a near complete stop while traversing a corner on very wet and very slick clay.[/QUOTE]
Agreeded some of the stops at the winter series have been "scary" at the frist event a Q45 took out the stop twice in a row... It was often a quick left right and then full on stop
I think they might be better serveded by a actual stop box. where if you hit any of the cones you are DNF.
More over, while I agree that R-compounds do work in the cold and wet to some extent, there is definitely a line where they suddenly go from "marginal" to "sweet! Who poured oil on my tires?!?"
That said I think this driver needs a "time out" to reflect on overdriving the car, and his resposiblity to the club, and its memebers. I know that when my car spins, even if its currently heading in a perfectly safe direction, I just bring it to as quick of a stop as possible, and not try to save it. Why? Well if you try to save it... it might just find some new interesting direction to go in.., a direction with Poles, concrete barriers, corner workes, timing equipment, etc.
Last Course design at many events needs to be improved. I know I've personaly went through the timing lights at one event VERY sideways in the STi, and most people at one time or another were just as close to completely spinning the car. A rallyX I went to, it was RARE for someone NOT to spin through the lights given the crap desgin. Not even a matter of comming in hot, just the natural result of trying to bring a car to a near complete stop while traversing a corner on very wet and very slick clay.[/QUOTE]
Agreeded some of the stops at the winter series have been "scary" at the frist event a Q45 took out the stop twice in a row... It was often a quick left right and then full on stop
I think they might be better serveded by a actual stop box. where if you hit any of the cones you are DNF.
| Cosworth | 02-09-2005 06:17 PM |
I think i know who this guy is... I do T&S for NNJR SCCA and have seen him race there as well with both his old STi and the then new MR which was not even broken in yet at the time. :lol: No pun intended.
| adhowe70 | 02-09-2005 09:25 PM |
Like Chris H. (draken) said, I don't necessarily think cold temperatures and R-compounds should be mutually exclusive. R-compounds will often be faster in the wet than a "street tire." It depends on the conditions and the tires. A Hoosier A3S03 on a wet 40 degree course is a BAD idea. A Victoracer in the same conditions? Close to the best tire you'll find.
The only people who know if it was the right decision are the people who were there.
That said, I take issue with the attitude displayed online by the driver. I'd say he needs to learn from his mistake (any loss of control is a mistake.) If he can't dial back the attitude and learn from it, he doesn't belong back in the car. The "Eat **** and die. I don't care what you think." attitude will get you escorted off the site at a lot of clubs. Its just not a safe mentality for piloting a car.
Andy H.
The only people who know if it was the right decision are the people who were there.
That said, I take issue with the attitude displayed online by the driver. I'd say he needs to learn from his mistake (any loss of control is a mistake.) If he can't dial back the attitude and learn from it, he doesn't belong back in the car. The "Eat **** and die. I don't care what you think." attitude will get you escorted off the site at a lot of clubs. Its just not a safe mentality for piloting a car.
Andy H.
| maron10 | 02-11-2005 12:27 AM |
All right, let me also respond to this post as well . First of all KC you were not there and should ask someone that was what exactly happened. I wore Rs just like at least 10 other drivers wore Rs when they arrive at the event. No one knew that there was going to be snow on the ground. Now I am at fault however to drive them on snow and have learned from that. My comment about running on Rs again was meant on dry weather (meaning no snow) pavement. the day before the event, I had my snow tires on and has decided to switch wheels and put the Rs for the following reason:
1. Weather showed 50 to mid 50s so I said " great this will give me a chance to test out the Dunlops since this is the first time I'de get to run them." I drove on them because I wanted to see how they would do in terms of the ride in the streets. I know a lot of people that I auto-x with that drives them in the street and telling me that they weren't so bad. So I decided to drive o9n them to the event. Have I bought my other set of tire/wheel package, I would have change shoes.
2. I'm not being a dick about it and was very concern about the guy that was hit. I spoke first hand with one of the event runner and asked him how the guy was doing and to keep me updated if he needed me to do anything or needed my help with anything. I may come off a certain way on the forum because people tends to want to jump to conclusions without knowing what exactly happened and it kind of pisses me off.
3. I'm not inconsiderate towards others, it is not as if I was carelessly driving the car on course. I admit been slightly too agressive at the end of the course and should have dialed it back instead of trying to be as fast as I could get it to be in a fun event.
4. When I said I don't take no for an answer, I was talking about my innerself. I kept telling myself not to run but the other side of me kept telling me "hey you came all teh way down might as well have some fun".
When this happened I was more concern about the guy than I was about myself. I could not keep steady and was praying that he was going to be ok.
Again my comment about running on Rs was not to say that I'm ignorant about the whole thing and I know and always knew that it was not a good idead to run them on snow. I will run on them this weekend at the meadowlands if the ground is dry.
as far as not deserving the car, who are you to tell me what I deserve and don't deserve? I work hard for every god damn thing that I own in life. This car is just another piece of object or tool that I'm using to satisfy my hobby needs. You're saying it as if the car is a woman.
1. Weather showed 50 to mid 50s so I said " great this will give me a chance to test out the Dunlops since this is the first time I'de get to run them." I drove on them because I wanted to see how they would do in terms of the ride in the streets. I know a lot of people that I auto-x with that drives them in the street and telling me that they weren't so bad. So I decided to drive o9n them to the event. Have I bought my other set of tire/wheel package, I would have change shoes.
2. I'm not being a dick about it and was very concern about the guy that was hit. I spoke first hand with one of the event runner and asked him how the guy was doing and to keep me updated if he needed me to do anything or needed my help with anything. I may come off a certain way on the forum because people tends to want to jump to conclusions without knowing what exactly happened and it kind of pisses me off.
3. I'm not inconsiderate towards others, it is not as if I was carelessly driving the car on course. I admit been slightly too agressive at the end of the course and should have dialed it back instead of trying to be as fast as I could get it to be in a fun event.
4. When I said I don't take no for an answer, I was talking about my innerself. I kept telling myself not to run but the other side of me kept telling me "hey you came all teh way down might as well have some fun".
When this happened I was more concern about the guy than I was about myself. I could not keep steady and was praying that he was going to be ok.
Again my comment about running on Rs was not to say that I'm ignorant about the whole thing and I know and always knew that it was not a good idead to run them on snow. I will run on them this weekend at the meadowlands if the ground is dry.
as far as not deserving the car, who are you to tell me what I deserve and don't deserve? I work hard for every god damn thing that I own in life. This car is just another piece of object or tool that I'm using to satisfy my hobby needs. You're saying it as if the car is a woman.
| maron10 | 02-11-2005 12:31 AM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]I know him and why it happened - to some extent I am busting his n#ts because he sold his STi and bought the Evo.
I actually find the MR very balanced and handles extremely well and also it does a ton to catch bad driving on track (not a good thing for learning to drive on track) - but it severly lacks feedback that is what I mean by vague. I know how to drive them just feel seperated from the road almost like I am in a huge luxury sedan compared to the STi which is very informative in the seat of the pants.
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album114/IMG_3240.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album114/IMG_3241.jpg[/img]
That is me driving his first one. He didn't like the color, so he got the darker one (the one that owned the portapotty), and apparently he replaced it tonight with another one... #3.[/QUOTE]
Ed,
I did not replace it. It is being fixed as we speak and will be back on the road within two weeks. I picked up another one because I needed a spare car just in case one of them is down whether it is mechanically or if something such as this or if I crash on the track ever happen. I needed a car before VIR starts and since I can't do HPDE in the s2000(lack of hardtop and sufficient roll bar), I've decided to get another one. It is a trade so it is not a big deal. I got rid of the silver s2000 for it with little money spent.
I actually find the MR very balanced and handles extremely well and also it does a ton to catch bad driving on track (not a good thing for learning to drive on track) - but it severly lacks feedback that is what I mean by vague. I know how to drive them just feel seperated from the road almost like I am in a huge luxury sedan compared to the STi which is very informative in the seat of the pants.
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album114/IMG_3240.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album114/IMG_3241.jpg[/img]
That is me driving his first one. He didn't like the color, so he got the darker one (the one that owned the portapotty), and apparently he replaced it tonight with another one... #3.[/QUOTE]
Ed,
I did not replace it. It is being fixed as we speak and will be back on the road within two weeks. I picked up another one because I needed a spare car just in case one of them is down whether it is mechanically or if something such as this or if I crash on the track ever happen. I needed a car before VIR starts and since I can't do HPDE in the s2000(lack of hardtop and sufficient roll bar), I've decided to get another one. It is a trade so it is not a big deal. I got rid of the silver s2000 for it with little money spent.
| maron10 | 02-11-2005 12:48 AM |
[QUOTE=Cosworth]I think i know who this guy is... I do T&S for NNJR SCCA and have seen him race there as well with both his old STi and the then new MR which was not even broken in yet at the time. :lol: No pun intended.[/QUOTE]
Hey I had a 1000 miles on it before my 1st autocross so it was partially there :)
I remember this because I drove it back and forth from NJ to PA 4 times until I reach that 1k miles point.
Hey I had a 1000 miles on it before my 1st autocross so it was partially there :)
I remember this because I drove it back and forth from NJ to PA 4 times until I reach that 1k miles point.
| KC | 02-11-2005 08:17 AM |
[QUOTE=maron10]All right, let me also respond to this post as well . First of all KC you were not there and should ask someone that was what exactly happened. [/QUOTE]
Look, I'm more concerned with the safety stewards or operating people NOT turning people away who had r-compounds. I hold to the belief that r-compounds shouldn't be used when the HIGHS for the day/week/month are 55-60 degrees on one or two days. There are people that says it's fine... I've heard from different people saying it's not. It comes down to what we were brought up to beleive and that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on.
All it takes is one simple mistake and it's gonesville. The best auto-xers in the country many times still make mistakes while running a course. I'm not holding anything like that aginst you. Given the conditions... a small mistake off the 'line' and it's bigger consequenses when there's sand/snow on the ground than if it were an 70-80 degree day and the lots been used for the past couple months.
Many times you said you shouldn't have run them, and you knew it. Not being able to put yourself in check when it's called for is one of the biggest causes of accidents because the driver is overconfident in their abilities.. not seeing the whole picture. I do it too. You're not alone in this. However, what's gotten me really irritated is your attitude on evo m acting like a little kid because people critisized your choice in tire for the day.
Sometimes drivers need to take a step back and evaluate things instead of saying 'well if 10 others said it's ok, then it's got to be ok'. (Not realizing those 10 others probably have a few more years of auto-x expereince on r-compounds.) ;)
Again... I have more critisism for the event runners than you.
--kC
Look, I'm more concerned with the safety stewards or operating people NOT turning people away who had r-compounds. I hold to the belief that r-compounds shouldn't be used when the HIGHS for the day/week/month are 55-60 degrees on one or two days. There are people that says it's fine... I've heard from different people saying it's not. It comes down to what we were brought up to beleive and that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on.
All it takes is one simple mistake and it's gonesville. The best auto-xers in the country many times still make mistakes while running a course. I'm not holding anything like that aginst you. Given the conditions... a small mistake off the 'line' and it's bigger consequenses when there's sand/snow on the ground than if it were an 70-80 degree day and the lots been used for the past couple months.
Many times you said you shouldn't have run them, and you knew it. Not being able to put yourself in check when it's called for is one of the biggest causes of accidents because the driver is overconfident in their abilities.. not seeing the whole picture. I do it too. You're not alone in this. However, what's gotten me really irritated is your attitude on evo m acting like a little kid because people critisized your choice in tire for the day.
Sometimes drivers need to take a step back and evaluate things instead of saying 'well if 10 others said it's ok, then it's got to be ok'. (Not realizing those 10 others probably have a few more years of auto-x expereince on r-compounds.) ;)
Again... I have more critisism for the event runners than you.
--kC
| Eleazar | 02-12-2005 10:27 PM |
Is that an Ultima?! :eek:
[QUOTE=turboICE]
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album114/IMG_3241.jpg[/img]
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=turboICE]
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album114/IMG_3241.jpg[/img]
[/QUOTE]
| turboICE | 02-13-2005 12:46 AM |
Yeah, gorgeous car, slow driver (It was brought to the track in a full rig towed trailer). He kept braking at the bottom of the downhill right hander, so bye, bye. He wasn't too happy about it - four laps later he got me at the end of the straight - he learned to carry more speed through the turn though.
| Tensen | 02-14-2005 07:34 AM |
(off the subject, but had i known that those LR photos would be posted a gazillion times, i woulda got a better shot! blur :mad: :devil: )
| turboICE | 02-14-2005 07:05 PM |
We were going too fast for even your mad skilz... ;)
Are you going to VIR?
Are you going to VIR?
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