| ScreaminFast | 04-03-2003 09:38 AM |
First time at a track this June....need suggestions?
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Hey everyone,
I've been autoXing at my school for 3 years now, but this will be the first time I'll be on a road course. I'm going to lime rock in june. Is there anything I should do to prepare myself, and the car for this? Thanks!
My mods that would pertain to this:
STi Engine Mount
STi Tranny Mount
STi Short-shifter
Cusco F&R Sway Bars
Perrin Endlinks
Cusco Front Strut Bar
Cusco V2 Brace Bar
Perrin Intake
HKS BOV
I think I may have more mods, but I can't remember then right now....Thanks again :)
sf
I've been autoXing at my school for 3 years now, but this will be the first time I'll be on a road course. I'm going to lime rock in june. Is there anything I should do to prepare myself, and the car for this? Thanks!
My mods that would pertain to this:
STi Engine Mount
STi Tranny Mount
STi Short-shifter
Cusco F&R Sway Bars
Perrin Endlinks
Cusco Front Strut Bar
Cusco V2 Brace Bar
Perrin Intake
HKS BOV
I think I may have more mods, but I can't remember then right now....Thanks again :)
sf
| NotFast | 04-03-2003 09:54 AM |
Watch your brakes?
Any car's stock brakes (incl WRX) will fade bad if used hard/consistently at the track. You might want to take it easy - don't brake 100% at every turn - or the brakes will puke.
Any car's stock brakes (incl WRX) will fade bad if used hard/consistently at the track. You might want to take it easy - don't brake 100% at every turn - or the brakes will puke.
| Dusty Wagon | 04-03-2003 01:04 PM |
If you've been autocrossing for three years, you probably have a lot of the car balancing and choosing a line basics, which is the hardest for a newbie.
So, like the above said, pay attention to brake fade, some decent pads may be all you need, Hawk HP+ is a good street/track pad, or whatever you like...
Before you hit the track, ride with an instructor who know the track preferably with him/erh driving, then with the instrucotr in the passenger seat.
In autocross you drive 10/10ths, on the track start at 6/10ths then go up to 7,8,9 that's it, unless you can "afford to push it off a cliff."
Also, there are other cars on the track with you, so, you kind of have to know where yu are , be courtious, and be cautious.
Other than that, go fast, don't crash.
So, like the above said, pay attention to brake fade, some decent pads may be all you need, Hawk HP+ is a good street/track pad, or whatever you like...
Before you hit the track, ride with an instructor who know the track preferably with him/erh driving, then with the instrucotr in the passenger seat.
In autocross you drive 10/10ths, on the track start at 6/10ths then go up to 7,8,9 that's it, unless you can "afford to push it off a cliff."
Also, there are other cars on the track with you, so, you kind of have to know where yu are , be courtious, and be cautious.
Other than that, go fast, don't crash.
| Jack | 04-03-2003 02:44 PM |
Firstly, you don't need any of those mods for the track. What tires do you have? Next, to prep the car, go through it mechanically. Flush the fluid and replace with new stuff. Motul 600 is probably the easiest to get widely...but I've gone to Wilwood exp600 which is about 30 degrees higher boiling point. Remove the backing plates. Make sure the pads are thick, but I would not use brand new, unused pads. LRP is not hard on brakes. Be sure the battery is well secured....it's the first thing that'll be checked. Wear leather sneakers, jeans and a long sleeve cotton shirt and no nylon clothes. Be sure your helmet is up to spec.
Lime Rock is a very flowing, easily driven race track with challenges as you gain speed. Concentrate on consistancy and smoothness and listen to your instructor. Your autocross experience will help you greatly. I find that students with autocross experience are the easiest to advance, as many of the basic skills are already automatic. Listen and be open to learn and try new things that the instructor suggests.
Do a search on Lime Rock around NESIC (new england) as I rember seeing a vid on a lap. There's also some bad video on Tracktime's site, I believe. Watch them to get an idea where the line is. It doesn't translate well till you've been there. If you're attending with Skip Barber, Porsche, BMW, SCDA, Audi, they've all got similar programs (Skip having many more options) where you get classroom instruction and then in-car instruction.
You'll have fun. If you want to PM me with questions, I've instructed there with COM and BMW and hold a showroom stock track record there....and will be happy to answer questions for you.
jack
Lime Rock is a very flowing, easily driven race track with challenges as you gain speed. Concentrate on consistancy and smoothness and listen to your instructor. Your autocross experience will help you greatly. I find that students with autocross experience are the easiest to advance, as many of the basic skills are already automatic. Listen and be open to learn and try new things that the instructor suggests.
Do a search on Lime Rock around NESIC (new england) as I rember seeing a vid on a lap. There's also some bad video on Tracktime's site, I believe. Watch them to get an idea where the line is. It doesn't translate well till you've been there. If you're attending with Skip Barber, Porsche, BMW, SCDA, Audi, they've all got similar programs (Skip having many more options) where you get classroom instruction and then in-car instruction.
You'll have fun. If you want to PM me with questions, I've instructed there with COM and BMW and hold a showroom stock track record there....and will be happy to answer questions for you.
jack
| Dusty Wagon | 04-03-2003 05:36 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jack ffr1846 [/i]
[B]Firstly, you don't need any of those mods for the track.
jack [/B][/QUOTE]
Agreed, but it's no fun to have brake fade the first time out on the race course. I would still go with some decent pads.
[B]Firstly, you don't need any of those mods for the track.
jack [/B][/QUOTE]
Agreed, but it's no fun to have brake fade the first time out on the race course. I would still go with some decent pads.
| spidey02wrx | 04-03-2003 06:26 PM |
you can probably get away with the stock pads at LRP, only one real braking zone. But personally I'd do it for the fun factor, less time on the brakes, more time on the gas.
mark
ps. what club are you going to run with?
mark
ps. what club are you going to run with?
| MSG | 04-03-2003 11:12 PM |
Lime Rock is a pretty fun track, and should be good in the WRX. Two key areas are handling and brakes. The rear sway bar will help eliminate the understeer that is the tendency in the WRX (set it pretty stiff), but I recommend upgrading the tires. Do you have plans for this? Better tires will help the handling, but more importantly thay will help the braking. The Bridgestones aren't that great, and will be setting off the ABS like crazy.
And the brakes are key! Jack is right, Lime Rock is not as tough on the brakes as other tracks, but there are some things you MUST do. First, Upgrade to Motul 600. Get some aftermarket pads with a higher temperature rating (opinions vary tremendously on what pad to use). Another relatively cheap upgrade is installing stainless steel lines to the calipers, replacing the rubber hoses. I recommend it.
And, Have fun! Take it easy at first, especially on the diving last turn. It can be fast, but you don't want to carry too much speed until you get comfortable with it.
MSG
And the brakes are key! Jack is right, Lime Rock is not as tough on the brakes as other tracks, but there are some things you MUST do. First, Upgrade to Motul 600. Get some aftermarket pads with a higher temperature rating (opinions vary tremendously on what pad to use). Another relatively cheap upgrade is installing stainless steel lines to the calipers, replacing the rubber hoses. I recommend it.
And, Have fun! Take it easy at first, especially on the diving last turn. It can be fast, but you don't want to carry too much speed until you get comfortable with it.
MSG
| Drew888 | 04-04-2003 11:34 AM |
I will soon be doing the same as ScreaminFast but I do not have any racing experience.
I'm 35 and this has been a goal of mine for many years (read= this will be the same as winning the lottery for me).
I understand all that has been said so far (a lot of common sense stuff really) and I don't want to hijack his post so please PM me for the real Noob advice (I'd appreciate it!), but what both ScreaminFast and I might benefit on is alignment settings AutoX VS roadcourse.
How best to set up the car prior to the event? (in my case I have a wagon)
Thanks!
Drew
I'm 35 and this has been a goal of mine for many years (read= this will be the same as winning the lottery for me).
I understand all that has been said so far (a lot of common sense stuff really) and I don't want to hijack his post so please PM me for the real Noob advice (I'd appreciate it!), but what both ScreaminFast and I might benefit on is alignment settings AutoX VS roadcourse.
How best to set up the car prior to the event? (in my case I have a wagon)
Thanks!
Drew
| MSG | 04-04-2003 11:57 AM |
Check out the Suspension forum for more detailed info.
What I found helped me a lot was a stiffer rear sway bar. I have the sedan, but it greatly reduced understeer. I have heard many alignment settings, but the biggest gain will be to add negative camber to the front, also to reduct push/understeer. I think stock is 0.5 degrees negative. I just had my car realigned, and put in -1.5 degrees negative. Some people say to use more, but you will eat up the inside shouder/tread street driving with too much negative camber. I needed to get after-market camber bolts, as the stock bolts will not allow that much negative camber to be dialed in.
What I found helped me a lot was a stiffer rear sway bar. I have the sedan, but it greatly reduced understeer. I have heard many alignment settings, but the biggest gain will be to add negative camber to the front, also to reduct push/understeer. I think stock is 0.5 degrees negative. I just had my car realigned, and put in -1.5 degrees negative. Some people say to use more, but you will eat up the inside shouder/tread street driving with too much negative camber. I needed to get after-market camber bolts, as the stock bolts will not allow that much negative camber to be dialed in.
| Drew888 | 04-04-2003 12:14 PM |
MSG thanks,
You needed camber bolts for the front to get -1.5? I had always thought that the maximum was 1.5 without needing bolts.
My suspension mods so far are springs, 17"rims on SP9000's, rear bar set to 22mm, -1.0 in front w/ 1/16" overall toe-out, and -1.7 in the rear.
I am thinking I'll have to add the ALK (I am getting track time for the joy of just being there. I am not racing :( , changing front to -1.5, adding bolts to rear to get it to about -1, and adding Stoptech's stage 1.
Is this a good place to start? What about adding adjustable camber plates up front to get maybe -2 / -2.5, leaving the rear a -1.7 and upping the rear bar to 24mm?
I'll experiment, but I am just wondering if someone else already has.
Thanks again,
Drew
You needed camber bolts for the front to get -1.5? I had always thought that the maximum was 1.5 without needing bolts.
My suspension mods so far are springs, 17"rims on SP9000's, rear bar set to 22mm, -1.0 in front w/ 1/16" overall toe-out, and -1.7 in the rear.
I am thinking I'll have to add the ALK (I am getting track time for the joy of just being there. I am not racing :( , changing front to -1.5, adding bolts to rear to get it to about -1, and adding Stoptech's stage 1.
Is this a good place to start? What about adding adjustable camber plates up front to get maybe -2 / -2.5, leaving the rear a -1.7 and upping the rear bar to 24mm?
I'll experiment, but I am just wondering if someone else already has.
Thanks again,
Drew
| ScreaminFast | 04-04-2003 12:17 PM |
I'm doing this with SCDA on June 28th.... I'm definitely excited. My rear sway bar is set on the stiffest right now, and I think I have pretty good control of the car's lateral movements. I didn't have plans to change tires, but last night I got a bolt stuck in my tire and I had to patch it. I rotated and balanced all my tires, so i'm good now, but I was suggested not to run with the patch on the track....
I'm probably going to order my helmet today....Its a Bell Sport III. I think its a good all around helmet :) Thanks for any suggestions....keep them coming...I may do the motul 600 thing.
Jack- I may take you up on those PMs, so keep an eye out for me. Thanks!!! :)
Oh and I added GFB pulleys last night ;) hehehe and I'm thinking of adding an ALK too...
sf
I'm probably going to order my helmet today....Its a Bell Sport III. I think its a good all around helmet :) Thanks for any suggestions....keep them coming...I may do the motul 600 thing.
Jack- I may take you up on those PMs, so keep an eye out for me. Thanks!!! :)
Oh and I added GFB pulleys last night ;) hehehe and I'm thinking of adding an ALK too...
sf
| elgorey | 04-04-2003 12:27 PM |
despite what everyone is saying here, stock brakes are plenty adequate for the track. What you need are some good track pads. Carbotech Panther+ are excellent track pads (and streetable) and Carbotech XP are even better (but less streetable)
do a flush with ate super blue and your brakes will be ready for just about anything.
do a flush with ate super blue and your brakes will be ready for just about anything.
| MSG | 04-04-2003 01:17 PM |
Drew888, I think that max negative camber in the front is 1.4 degrees. I have been told each car is a little different. Question-with the toe-out in front, does the car feel darty under heavy braking? Stock is 0 toe.
I thought about going the camber plate route, because you can then put some excessive negative camber in at the track, but then change it before going home on the street.
ScreaminFast-DO NOT drive that patched tire on the track. Bad and dangerous.
Elgorey, I disagree on the pads. For AutoX, you can go with stock. But for a 20 minute track session, they can't handle the heat buildup that occurs, and you will get incredible fade.
I am running the Carbotech's too, and really like them. I first had the Panther+, and yesterday put on my second set of XP's. They kick out a ton of dust onto the wheels, but the improved braking power and heat/fade resistance is awesome. They are O.K. to use on the street, but are a bit noisy. My (non-car knowledgable) passengers always think my brakes are bad because of the grinding sound they make.
I thought about going the camber plate route, because you can then put some excessive negative camber in at the track, but then change it before going home on the street.
ScreaminFast-DO NOT drive that patched tire on the track. Bad and dangerous.
Elgorey, I disagree on the pads. For AutoX, you can go with stock. But for a 20 minute track session, they can't handle the heat buildup that occurs, and you will get incredible fade.
I am running the Carbotech's too, and really like them. I first had the Panther+, and yesterday put on my second set of XP's. They kick out a ton of dust onto the wheels, but the improved braking power and heat/fade resistance is awesome. They are O.K. to use on the street, but are a bit noisy. My (non-car knowledgable) passengers always think my brakes are bad because of the grinding sound they make.
| Drew888 | 04-04-2003 01:45 PM |
MSG- I have had a perfomance alignment done at West End Alignment here in SoCal. The turn in is better. I never would have thought that 1/16" overall toe-out would make a difference.
I haven't hit the brakes hard enough to really notice. Since I drove my car for the very first time I thought the steering felt a little darty, especially at highway speeds. My first comment to friends after my first run on a highway was that you really need two hands on the wheel. I attributed it to the magazine reviews that said the steering was great, and this was my first experience with steering this good.
Now, the steering response feels a tick better, the over all highway driving feels the same. I do wish it felt more stable at speed though. How to correct this...I dunno.
Drew
I haven't hit the brakes hard enough to really notice. Since I drove my car for the very first time I thought the steering felt a little darty, especially at highway speeds. My first comment to friends after my first run on a highway was that you really need two hands on the wheel. I attributed it to the magazine reviews that said the steering was great, and this was my first experience with steering this good.
Now, the steering response feels a tick better, the over all highway driving feels the same. I do wish it felt more stable at speed though. How to correct this...I dunno.
Drew
| ITWRX4ME | 04-04-2003 02:41 PM |
Best advice I can give:
- Definitely get good brake pads and fluid.
- Relax. Don't get all hyped up and bugged eyed out there.
- Listen to your instructor.
- Stay aware of your surroundings(check your mirrors a lot).
- Focus on getting a feel for the track first, speed will come.
- Relax.
- Definitely get good brake pads and fluid.
- Relax. Don't get all hyped up and bugged eyed out there.
- Listen to your instructor.
- Stay aware of your surroundings(check your mirrors a lot).
- Focus on getting a feel for the track first, speed will come.
- Relax.
| Xio | 04-04-2003 03:09 PM |
I was in the same boat as you guys a few weeks ago (Auto-xer trying out track driving). The track I was on was Motorsport Ranch's 1.7 mile road course down here in TX...[url]www.motorsportranch.com.[/url]
My car is a stock 02 WRX sedan, wearing 17x7.5 Rotas with Kumho 712s. Due to auto-x, I have -1.3 degrees front camber, 0.1 degrees toe out front, 0.05 degrees toe out rear. Before doing this track event, I swapped in Axxis Ultimate pads and Valvoline Synpower fluid. (The cheapie upgrade route! :D)
My impressions:
-Sway bar helps greatly. Anyone with a swaybar was able to hold line better than me. I often found myself drifting to the outside while the guy in front or behind me would be tucked into the groove nicely.
-Any car with stock pads/fluid experienced much earlier fading, as expected. Anyone with stock brakes was fine the first 10 laps but after that I had no problem out-braking them. After 20 laps even my upgraded pads began to fade, but I still maintained better braking performance than stockers.
-Tires, tires, tires- My Kumho 712s stood up to the task with no problems, but they did squeal like pigs on every corner, and obviously did not provide near the level of grip evident in the cars wearing Azenis or R-compound. I did notice that after the last hot-run session, the outer edges of the tire was turned shiny...a sign of the onset of rubber melting.
Don't even think of running on anything below V-rated...one guy showed up on H-rated tires and completely melted the outside 2" of tread and some of the sidewall...they were chunking out badly even during the pace-car laps where speed was slow. I would venture to guess that his tires were completely shot by the end of the day.
My car is a stock 02 WRX sedan, wearing 17x7.5 Rotas with Kumho 712s. Due to auto-x, I have -1.3 degrees front camber, 0.1 degrees toe out front, 0.05 degrees toe out rear. Before doing this track event, I swapped in Axxis Ultimate pads and Valvoline Synpower fluid. (The cheapie upgrade route! :D)
My impressions:
-Sway bar helps greatly. Anyone with a swaybar was able to hold line better than me. I often found myself drifting to the outside while the guy in front or behind me would be tucked into the groove nicely.
-Any car with stock pads/fluid experienced much earlier fading, as expected. Anyone with stock brakes was fine the first 10 laps but after that I had no problem out-braking them. After 20 laps even my upgraded pads began to fade, but I still maintained better braking performance than stockers.
-Tires, tires, tires- My Kumho 712s stood up to the task with no problems, but they did squeal like pigs on every corner, and obviously did not provide near the level of grip evident in the cars wearing Azenis or R-compound. I did notice that after the last hot-run session, the outer edges of the tire was turned shiny...a sign of the onset of rubber melting.
Don't even think of running on anything below V-rated...one guy showed up on H-rated tires and completely melted the outside 2" of tread and some of the sidewall...they were chunking out badly even during the pace-car laps where speed was slow. I would venture to guess that his tires were completely shot by the end of the day.
| Drew888 | 04-04-2003 05:00 PM |
Xio,
What is your rear camber setting?
Thanks,
Drew
What is your rear camber setting?
Thanks,
Drew
| ScreaminFast | 04-04-2003 10:23 PM |
I may pick up a cheap set of 17" rims for the track and put some Azenis on there, or maybe a set of 16" steelies from discount tire direct for like 45/rim. The 17s i found on ebay are really heavy at 20lbs/rim, so i'm not sure if that'd make a big difference in the handling of my car, etc.....
I'll definitely look into doing something with the brakes, but what do you suggest about the rims and tires, etc....??
Thanks :)
I'll definitely look into doing something with the brakes, but what do you suggest about the rims and tires, etc....??
Thanks :)
| randy zimmer | 04-05-2003 03:19 PM |
just drive the car
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�
Boy,
Every time someone asks about what to do to drive a car around, it turns into a frenzy of modifications that can't be lived without.
You aren't racing, this is just a fun diving event, so if the car is safe, drive it.
If it burns down the brakes, let 'em cool, and change what you do to keep them from fading again. If the tires don't grip, don't go so fast. Is this a test of car or driver?
Driving means making the most of what you have and making it last.
Make sure the car's safe and have fun.
rz
Every time someone asks about what to do to drive a car around, it turns into a frenzy of modifications that can't be lived without.
You aren't racing, this is just a fun diving event, so if the car is safe, drive it.
If it burns down the brakes, let 'em cool, and change what you do to keep them from fading again. If the tires don't grip, don't go so fast. Is this a test of car or driver?
Driving means making the most of what you have and making it last.
Make sure the car's safe and have fun.
rz
| ScreaminFast | 04-05-2003 04:43 PM |
good point, i'm now looking into some kuhmo ecsta v700s so that I can use them for autocross as well as to have fun on the track....and i'm gonna just get a second set of stock rims....
| wylie | 04-06-2003 01:35 PM |
Bring extra brake pads with you.
I was at a track day and saw a guy and his buddy in their WRX wear their brake pads to the backing plates halfway through the day and he was 600 miles from home!
I was at a track day and saw a guy and his buddy in their WRX wear their brake pads to the backing plates halfway through the day and he was 600 miles from home!
| jamz | 04-06-2003 10:38 PM |
Learn the line. :) Don't turn in as early as I was doing in the left hander.
[URL=http://www.eataworm.com/lrp2.mpg]www.eataworm.com/lrp2.mpg[/URL]
[URL=http://www.eataworm.com/lrp2.mpg]www.eataworm.com/lrp2.mpg[/URL]
| ITWRX4ME | 04-07-2003 06:51 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wylie [/i]
[B]Bring extra brake pads with you.
I was at a track day and saw a guy and his buddy in their WRX wear their brake pads to the backing plates halfway through the day and he was 600 miles from home! [/B][/QUOTE]
Those had to have been stock pads. My stock pads wore out fairly quickly as well. My Hawk HP+ pads hold up fine. Doesn't hurt to bring an extra set anyway.
[B]Bring extra brake pads with you.
I was at a track day and saw a guy and his buddy in their WRX wear their brake pads to the backing plates halfway through the day and he was 600 miles from home! [/B][/QUOTE]
Those had to have been stock pads. My stock pads wore out fairly quickly as well. My Hawk HP+ pads hold up fine. Doesn't hurt to bring an extra set anyway.
| Xio | 04-07-2003 12:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Drew888 [/i]
[B]Xio,
What is your rear camber setting?
Thanks,
Drew [/B][/QUOTE]
Stock, I think -1.3ish? I basically got both sides even then left it alone as there is no easy adjustment with only stock pieces.
[B]Xio,
What is your rear camber setting?
Thanks,
Drew [/B][/QUOTE]
Stock, I think -1.3ish? I basically got both sides even then left it alone as there is no easy adjustment with only stock pieces.
| ScreaminFast | 04-07-2003 01:02 PM |
Ok I just bought a set of stock rims, and I just ordered 225/50R16 kuhmo ecsta MX's. I'm gonna start getting some stuff together and ready for the track. I'll probably just get a set of stock pads from autozone or something to bring with me, unless I have the money to upgrade the brakes between now and then.
Xio- Will I have any adverse street driving problems if I go to a place and ask them to give me an alignment with -1.3 camber all around?
sf
Xio- Will I have any adverse street driving problems if I go to a place and ask them to give me an alignment with -1.3 camber all around?
sf
| IXLR8 | 04-07-2003 06:48 PM |
Re: just drive the car
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by randy zimmer [/i]
[B]Boy,
Every time someone asks about what to do to drive a car around, it turns into a frenzy of modifications that can't be lived without.
You aren't racing, this is just a fun diving event, so if the car is safe, drive it.
If it burns down the brakes, let 'em cool, and change what you do to keep them from fading again. If the tires don't grip, don't go so fast. Is this a test of car or driver?
Driving means making the most of what you have and making it last.
Make sure the car's safe and have fun.
rz [/B][/QUOTE]
Amen... Thank You Randy!! (This should be a "sticky".)
[B]Boy,
Every time someone asks about what to do to drive a car around, it turns into a frenzy of modifications that can't be lived without.
You aren't racing, this is just a fun diving event, so if the car is safe, drive it.
If it burns down the brakes, let 'em cool, and change what you do to keep them from fading again. If the tires don't grip, don't go so fast. Is this a test of car or driver?
Driving means making the most of what you have and making it last.
Make sure the car's safe and have fun.
rz [/B][/QUOTE]
Amen... Thank You Randy!! (This should be a "sticky".)
| mav1c | 04-08-2003 03:17 PM |
I'm with Randy on this one. If your car is safe now, just go and be easy on the equipment if you see any problems. I can gaurantee you will see brake fade with the stock system, but just back off a little and you should be OK. Maybe bring that extra set of pads just to be safe. All the advice on upgraded brake pads and fluid is right on, but I don't think it's absolutley necassary your first time out. Really, your first time on the track, even with your auto-x experience, you shouldn't get anywhere near 10/10ths. Probably more like 6-7/10ths. Remember, you're there to learn and have fun, not race. This way, you'll be able to appreciate the upgraded pads and fluid the next time you go to the track, along with whatever other upgrades you do. The first time I went to the track I had completely stock brakes on my RS. After about 5 laps there was considerable brake fade, but I dealt with it and still had a lot of fun. Got home and immediately looked into upgrading. Next time I went to the track I was SO pleased with my purchase and install work. Made the money spent that much more worth it. :)
| elgorey | 04-08-2003 03:49 PM |
I agree that the cars are very track ready in stock form -- except for the brake pads. They are not performance pads and should not be treated as such. To do so is unsafe. Its real easy for you to sit back and say "if they fade then let them cool" , but its a little hard to let them cool when going into a corner, the car isnt stopping, and that tirewall is getting mighty close. In addition to the fact that you are paying at least $300 for that weekends worth of track time, you should use it to the fullest. Going 1 lap full speed (or even less) only to spend 3 laps waiting for the brakes to cool is not the recepie for a fun. You are going to be in for a frustrating weekend if you show up on stock pads. If you are spending $300+ on your track event, at least get some $50 axxis ultimates and $10 bottle of brake fluid, which will both suffice for any novice and intermediate lapping.
stock allseasons: great to learn on
stock suspension/alignment: great to learn on
stock power: more than enough
stock calipers/rotors: plenty
stock brake pads: downright unsafe and frustrating on track.
stock allseasons: great to learn on
stock suspension/alignment: great to learn on
stock power: more than enough
stock calipers/rotors: plenty
stock brake pads: downright unsafe and frustrating on track.
| Drew888 | 04-09-2003 03:55 AM |
Elgorey,
Thanks man, that is exactly what I was wanting to say but couldn't figure out how to get it across effectively.
In everything I do I spend a little time reasearching so that I can make either; better use of my time, not wish I brought something, or get the best product for the lowest possible price, etc.
I would like to go as prepared as I can, with the help of you guys, so that I can have as much fun as possible. Something has to be said for not having any mechanical difficulties, and a car that is more properly set up.
I'm really looking forward to my first time out!
Thanks again!
Drew
Thanks man, that is exactly what I was wanting to say but couldn't figure out how to get it across effectively.
In everything I do I spend a little time reasearching so that I can make either; better use of my time, not wish I brought something, or get the best product for the lowest possible price, etc.
I would like to go as prepared as I can, with the help of you guys, so that I can have as much fun as possible. Something has to be said for not having any mechanical difficulties, and a car that is more properly set up.
I'm really looking forward to my first time out!
Thanks again!
Drew
| GQ | 04-09-2003 07:48 AM |
I would have to agree with elgorey. Get a good set of street/track pads, and a good brake fluid flush. Brake fade will probably not be an issue for you first few track days. Also, I would not even consider R compound tires. They are not at all forgiving. Stick with the RE-92's or go with a high performance street tire. Save your money to afford more track days.
| Drew888 | 04-09-2003 12:08 PM |
You piqued my curisoity.
Why aren't they that forgiving?
Why aren't they that forgiving?
| elgorey | 04-09-2003 12:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Drew888 [/i]
[B]You piqued my curisoity.
Why aren't they that forgiving? [/B][/QUOTE]
R-tires are a whole other ball of wax that you really shouldnt worry about right now. Stick with the Re92s for an event (or maybe 2) and then go with some Falken Azenis if you have the $$
The reason novices or intermediate (even some advanced) level drivers should not use R-tires is because they first off have very binary grip levels. What I mean by that (and what GQ is referring to) is that they will grip grip grip grip boom no grip. Whereas a street tire will talk to you more, and have a more progressive breakaway so that you will feel when you are approaching the limit of adhesion.
Secondly, an R-tire will mask your mistakes on track since the grip level is so high and as a novice or intermediate, you would not be operating at the maximum grip. (does that make sense?)
You will learn better, faster, be smoother and safer if you start out on street tires.
and personally in my opinion, R-tires for HPDEs and track events are a waste of rubber. It isnt a race, so R-tires are just a very expensive tire with a short lifespan. Of course you want [i]some[/i] grip though, so IMO Falken Azenis are the perfect track tire: good grip, cheap, and a relatively long lifespan.
[B]You piqued my curisoity.
Why aren't they that forgiving? [/B][/QUOTE]
R-tires are a whole other ball of wax that you really shouldnt worry about right now. Stick with the Re92s for an event (or maybe 2) and then go with some Falken Azenis if you have the $$
The reason novices or intermediate (even some advanced) level drivers should not use R-tires is because they first off have very binary grip levels. What I mean by that (and what GQ is referring to) is that they will grip grip grip grip boom no grip. Whereas a street tire will talk to you more, and have a more progressive breakaway so that you will feel when you are approaching the limit of adhesion.
Secondly, an R-tire will mask your mistakes on track since the grip level is so high and as a novice or intermediate, you would not be operating at the maximum grip. (does that make sense?)
You will learn better, faster, be smoother and safer if you start out on street tires.
and personally in my opinion, R-tires for HPDEs and track events are a waste of rubber. It isnt a race, so R-tires are just a very expensive tire with a short lifespan. Of course you want [i]some[/i] grip though, so IMO Falken Azenis are the perfect track tire: good grip, cheap, and a relatively long lifespan.
| Drew888 | 04-09-2003 01:08 PM |
That's easy to understand. I didn't know the characteristics of an R compound tire. I have seen many guys at meets using R compound tires on the street. Hmmmm.
I have SP9000's @ about $140 per.
Thanks again,
I have SP9000's @ about $140 per.
Thanks again,
| randy zimmer | 04-09-2003 06:10 PM |
Just checking in to see what is happening...
�
�
Just saw the brake discussion.
The brakes aren't that bad.
He's going to Lime Rock with one major braking zone per lap and you enter in 3rd and scrub speed for the slower part that comes up next. I slow for Big Bend in 3 distinct and different motions, only one small section of the 3 is at max pedal.
Turn one has a long paved run-off straight ahead. If things don't go right, bail, don't force it and hit the tree or slide into the swamp.
Attacking this course like a solo event isn't the quick way, you actually have to throw away a corner to go faster so learning how to float around without beating on the car is good practice.
I'd say if he hurts stock pads at LR he's doing it wrong and so he loses a good indicator of his skills.
Nobody said you have to drive every lap you're allowed to and if more students took the time to stop and reflect instead of continuing to practice their bad habits over and over, they'd be money ahead.
That assumes that the student wants to improve and not just OD on adrenaline.
Watched a video last week (I think it was linked to this thread) and around 7 minutes in you could see what was going to happen in minute 8 or 9. All the good lines and apexes of the first couple laps were thrown away and the spin commenced - at the compromise left of all places!
It made me go back and look for some old video and I saw myself do the same thing, just got more and more ragged as time went by. So I'm not immune, just pointing out how it goes. Relax, keep aware of your surroundings and have fun. If you start to get tunnel vision, pull in and relax.
rz
The brakes aren't that bad.
He's going to Lime Rock with one major braking zone per lap and you enter in 3rd and scrub speed for the slower part that comes up next. I slow for Big Bend in 3 distinct and different motions, only one small section of the 3 is at max pedal.
Turn one has a long paved run-off straight ahead. If things don't go right, bail, don't force it and hit the tree or slide into the swamp.
Attacking this course like a solo event isn't the quick way, you actually have to throw away a corner to go faster so learning how to float around without beating on the car is good practice.
I'd say if he hurts stock pads at LR he's doing it wrong and so he loses a good indicator of his skills.
Nobody said you have to drive every lap you're allowed to and if more students took the time to stop and reflect instead of continuing to practice their bad habits over and over, they'd be money ahead.
That assumes that the student wants to improve and not just OD on adrenaline.
Watched a video last week (I think it was linked to this thread) and around 7 minutes in you could see what was going to happen in minute 8 or 9. All the good lines and apexes of the first couple laps were thrown away and the spin commenced - at the compromise left of all places!
It made me go back and look for some old video and I saw myself do the same thing, just got more and more ragged as time went by. So I'm not immune, just pointing out how it goes. Relax, keep aware of your surroundings and have fun. If you start to get tunnel vision, pull in and relax.
rz
| ITWRX4ME | 04-10-2003 12:29 PM |
Hmmm. I guess if your one major braking zone is from 80-90mph the stock brakes might hold up. I was coming from the perspective of Summit Point where there are two major braking zones, turn 1, from 110+ and turn 3, from 80+(depending on the size of your cojones and confidence in your brakes).
| randy zimmer | 04-10-2003 12:49 PM |
brakes thru history
�
�
If you check with the really olden days, think - LeMans - 24 hours - drum brakes - superchargers - 4 mile straight into a 2nd gear hairpin...
Those guys needed to drive in a way to survive to the end and I'm sure that any one of them would give their left nut for a set of WRX disks and calipers - yes, even with the stock pads.
rz
Those guys needed to drive in a way to survive to the end and I'm sure that any one of them would give their left nut for a set of WRX disks and calipers - yes, even with the stock pads.
rz
| elgorey | 04-10-2003 12:54 PM |
while brake preservation is a valuable skill used in endurance racing and SS racing, it is a very advanced technique and should not be worried about by the first timer. The first time on track, a driver is already overloaded with information. The less things to worry about, the better so that the driver can get a firm grasp on the basics.
| spidey02wrx | 04-10-2003 01:22 PM |
the one braking zone in a WRX by the end of the day will be over 100 probably 110 or so. Even so, the course is uber-easy on the brakes. It doesn't hurt anything to spend the money on a good set of pads/fluid and then not worry about them the rest of the day. If a 120 bucks will buy you piece of mind, plus give you a bit more safety I say do it.
have fun!
anyone up at LRP the 19th?
mark
have fun!
anyone up at LRP the 19th?
mark
| MSG | 04-10-2003 11:14 PM |
I agree with the last post; although you definitely need to work on learning your car, and learning how to drive a track, the distraction of a minor thing like brakes shouldn't be on your mind. And, fact is that if you don't upgrade before the event, you will likely need new pads shortly afterwards. So, spring for new front pads (you can wait on the rears for now) and replace the OEM fluid with a high-temp one like Motul 600.
The most dramatic change you can make to improve the car is tires. However, that is a much bigger investment and can wait until after your first track day, to see if you get bitten by the bug! However, be careful not to overheat/overwork the tires, as you can easily trash them in one track day.
Take it easy, and have fun!!!
The most dramatic change you can make to improve the car is tires. However, that is a much bigger investment and can wait until after your first track day, to see if you get bitten by the bug! However, be careful not to overheat/overwork the tires, as you can easily trash them in one track day.
Take it easy, and have fun!!!
| IXLR8 | 04-11-2003 05:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]while brake preservation is a valuable skill used in endurance racing and SS racing, it is a very advanced technique [/B][/QUOTE]
In a word... Crap
Randy has it exactly right. There is nothing advanced about the most basic skill of interpreting vehicle "language". And one of the most fundamental (and easy) to understand bits of feedback your car provides you with, is brake fade. If your stock brakes are gone in a lap (or even 5), there's something massively wrong...
You're about as right re. R-compounds as you are re. brake fade.
While I think the RE-93's are fine, especially for first time track drivers, and I'm in no way suggesting R-compounds are necessary to have fun on a track, to characterize them all as "binary" is way off. I have no idea of what brands and compounds you've tried (if any) but each has it's own distinct characteristics, and one of the most forgving performance tires of any type is the Toyo RA-1. Lumping all R's into one statement about how they perform is about like doing the same for all "street" tires.
If this sounds like a rant, it probably is. As an instructor (and one of the "old guys" Randy alludes to) I often find myself having to undo "damage" done to students by the self-proclaimed "experts" on boards like these. Give me a break!
[B]while brake preservation is a valuable skill used in endurance racing and SS racing, it is a very advanced technique [/B][/QUOTE]
In a word... Crap
Randy has it exactly right. There is nothing advanced about the most basic skill of interpreting vehicle "language". And one of the most fundamental (and easy) to understand bits of feedback your car provides you with, is brake fade. If your stock brakes are gone in a lap (or even 5), there's something massively wrong...
You're about as right re. R-compounds as you are re. brake fade.
While I think the RE-93's are fine, especially for first time track drivers, and I'm in no way suggesting R-compounds are necessary to have fun on a track, to characterize them all as "binary" is way off. I have no idea of what brands and compounds you've tried (if any) but each has it's own distinct characteristics, and one of the most forgving performance tires of any type is the Toyo RA-1. Lumping all R's into one statement about how they perform is about like doing the same for all "street" tires.
If this sounds like a rant, it probably is. As an instructor (and one of the "old guys" Randy alludes to) I often find myself having to undo "damage" done to students by the self-proclaimed "experts" on boards like these. Give me a break!
| elgorey | 04-13-2003 11:39 PM |
So your first event drive on R-tires with stock brake pads! Sounds great! :rolleyes:
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by IXLR8 [/i]
Randy has it exactly right. There is nothing advanced about the most basic skill of interpreting vehicle "language". And one of the most fundamental (and easy) to understand bits of feedback your car provides you with, is brake fade. If your stock brakes are gone in a lap (or even 5), there's something massively wrong...
[/quote]
Don, as an instructor you should know that a first time driver is
almost always overwhelmed his/her first time on the track. Learning the track, the line, the saftey procedures, passing, braking, etc are [i]slightly[/i] more important than brake management.
instructor: "I know you are nervous as hell, dont know the line yet or what a yellow flag means but we better work on how to keep from deep frying your brake pads first....."
Maybe you "old timers" came from the cradle knowing the perfect line, smoothness, racetrack awareness and car control, but us youngins can actually remember what it is like to first turn a wheel on track, and the learning curve involved.
This weekend I was instructing at BeaveRun, and one of my beginner students, driving an Integra Type R was on his stock pads. His pads were fading horribly on the first day. He was distracted, not concentrating, very inconsistent and overall
just not improving. Not to mention a few scary corners coming in hot.
On the second day (earlier today), he bought some race pads from an on-track vendor and was from the get-go much more consistent, relaxed, he ended up learning a whole lot and was good enough to go solo by the end of the day.
Another student, My (talented) first time student would have cooked factory pads his first session.
When it comes down to it, the most important part is that of saftey. (something Im sure you know as an instructor)
brake pads are not safe to operate at above their designed temperature ratings. period.
Which makes either argument moot anyway.
[quote] to characterize [r-compounds] all as "binary" is way off.[/quote]
no, it is not at all way off. Compared to street tires, an r-compound has much less progressive breakaway characteristics. This is not something that I made up, and this is not from only my experience. Calling them binary may in fact be an oversimplification (and exaggeration), but to answer a simple question asked by someone who is unfamiliar with racing tires, it generalizes the differences between R and Streets effectively. Yes, some r-tires such as RA1s break away more progressively than [i]other R tires[/i] (hoosiers), but they are still much less communicative and progressive than a typical high performance street tire(which also obviously have differences). I could go into slip angles and all the other tire mumbo jumbo, but would that mean anything to who asked the question? No. Fact is, street tires communicate their breakaway and do it more gradually than r-tires. You have obviously lost the scope of the question, which is that of a first timer. My original advice stands. [i]You will learn better, faster, be smoother and safer if you start out on street tires. [/i] This is not advice derived from my limited experience alone, but from the unanimous advice of skilled and knowledgable instructors that I received coming "through the ranks", including instructors who teach high performance driving and racing for a living, Instructors who have forgotten more about driving on a racetrack than you, I or any of your "old timer" racers who [i]for some reason[/i] never raced beyond club racing at the local racetrack will ever know.
[quote] I have no idea of what brands and compounds you've tried (if any) [/quote]
as a matter of fact, I was just driving on Kuhmo EV700s [b]this weekend[/b] at BeaveRun.
[quote]If this sounds like a rant, it probably is. As an instructor (and one of the "old guys" Randy alludes to) I often find myself having to undo "damage" done to students by the self-proclaimed "experts" on boards like these. Give me a break! [/QUOTE]
Just remember Don, the older you get, the faster you were.
We know that you used to race in the snow on organic rubber slicks using brake pads made out of cork. And you were damn faster than all these whippersnappers. We know.
Evan
-who thinks an argument over a $50 brake pad that will make a $300 weekend more fun, more safe, and more productive pretty damn silly. (and who also doenst appreciate being called a "self-proclaimed expert")
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by IXLR8 [/i]
Randy has it exactly right. There is nothing advanced about the most basic skill of interpreting vehicle "language". And one of the most fundamental (and easy) to understand bits of feedback your car provides you with, is brake fade. If your stock brakes are gone in a lap (or even 5), there's something massively wrong...
[/quote]
Don, as an instructor you should know that a first time driver is
almost always overwhelmed his/her first time on the track. Learning the track, the line, the saftey procedures, passing, braking, etc are [i]slightly[/i] more important than brake management.
instructor: "I know you are nervous as hell, dont know the line yet or what a yellow flag means but we better work on how to keep from deep frying your brake pads first....."
Maybe you "old timers" came from the cradle knowing the perfect line, smoothness, racetrack awareness and car control, but us youngins can actually remember what it is like to first turn a wheel on track, and the learning curve involved.
This weekend I was instructing at BeaveRun, and one of my beginner students, driving an Integra Type R was on his stock pads. His pads were fading horribly on the first day. He was distracted, not concentrating, very inconsistent and overall
just not improving. Not to mention a few scary corners coming in hot.
On the second day (earlier today), he bought some race pads from an on-track vendor and was from the get-go much more consistent, relaxed, he ended up learning a whole lot and was good enough to go solo by the end of the day.
Another student, My (talented) first time student would have cooked factory pads his first session.
When it comes down to it, the most important part is that of saftey. (something Im sure you know as an instructor)
brake pads are not safe to operate at above their designed temperature ratings. period.
Which makes either argument moot anyway.
[quote] to characterize [r-compounds] all as "binary" is way off.[/quote]
no, it is not at all way off. Compared to street tires, an r-compound has much less progressive breakaway characteristics. This is not something that I made up, and this is not from only my experience. Calling them binary may in fact be an oversimplification (and exaggeration), but to answer a simple question asked by someone who is unfamiliar with racing tires, it generalizes the differences between R and Streets effectively. Yes, some r-tires such as RA1s break away more progressively than [i]other R tires[/i] (hoosiers), but they are still much less communicative and progressive than a typical high performance street tire(which also obviously have differences). I could go into slip angles and all the other tire mumbo jumbo, but would that mean anything to who asked the question? No. Fact is, street tires communicate their breakaway and do it more gradually than r-tires. You have obviously lost the scope of the question, which is that of a first timer. My original advice stands. [i]You will learn better, faster, be smoother and safer if you start out on street tires. [/i] This is not advice derived from my limited experience alone, but from the unanimous advice of skilled and knowledgable instructors that I received coming "through the ranks", including instructors who teach high performance driving and racing for a living, Instructors who have forgotten more about driving on a racetrack than you, I or any of your "old timer" racers who [i]for some reason[/i] never raced beyond club racing at the local racetrack will ever know.
[quote] I have no idea of what brands and compounds you've tried (if any) [/quote]
as a matter of fact, I was just driving on Kuhmo EV700s [b]this weekend[/b] at BeaveRun.
[quote]If this sounds like a rant, it probably is. As an instructor (and one of the "old guys" Randy alludes to) I often find myself having to undo "damage" done to students by the self-proclaimed "experts" on boards like these. Give me a break! [/QUOTE]
Just remember Don, the older you get, the faster you were.
We know that you used to race in the snow on organic rubber slicks using brake pads made out of cork. And you were damn faster than all these whippersnappers. We know.
Evan
-who thinks an argument over a $50 brake pad that will make a $300 weekend more fun, more safe, and more productive pretty damn silly. (and who also doenst appreciate being called a "self-proclaimed expert")
| sdecker | 04-13-2003 11:45 PM |
:eek:
Wow...
I'd weigh in with my suggestion to change the stock brake pads, but the fact that mine crumbled after one day on Road Atlanta would probably be pretty irrelevant right now...
If it were me, and I were doing it the first time again, I'd change my brake pads and fluid. Consider it a really solid 80 dollar investment in your future.
Scott
Wow...
I'd weigh in with my suggestion to change the stock brake pads, but the fact that mine crumbled after one day on Road Atlanta would probably be pretty irrelevant right now...
If it were me, and I were doing it the first time again, I'd change my brake pads and fluid. Consider it a really solid 80 dollar investment in your future.
Scott
| Dan_E | 04-14-2003 05:50 AM |
Its all been covered pretty well above...
- Have a spare set of pads, and an extra bottle of fluid. Have your car completely prepped 2 days before, last minute details are often taken care of that way.
- Bring a friend, Bring tools, if something should go astray, you would rather be spending more time driving, then cranking on things. Friends help physically and emotionally, keeps you focused on driving.
- Be in your car ready for your session at LEAST 5 min before you grid. Sit in the car, close your eyes and do a lap or 2 or 3 in your head, (don't worry no ones looking) ;) so you can recognize and remember your problem zones and attack them on the FIRST lap... after tires and brakes warm up of course.
- Be sure to drive outside your comfort zone. Keep it on the track of course, but if/when you hit the dirt, its a learning experience. Take it as just that. Driving fast is one thing, Driving smart is another, driving smart AND fast is what seperates Good and Genious. Oh, and keep your inputs smooth.
Have Fun
Enjoy
-Dan
- Have a spare set of pads, and an extra bottle of fluid. Have your car completely prepped 2 days before, last minute details are often taken care of that way.
- Bring a friend, Bring tools, if something should go astray, you would rather be spending more time driving, then cranking on things. Friends help physically and emotionally, keeps you focused on driving.
- Be in your car ready for your session at LEAST 5 min before you grid. Sit in the car, close your eyes and do a lap or 2 or 3 in your head, (don't worry no ones looking) ;) so you can recognize and remember your problem zones and attack them on the FIRST lap... after tires and brakes warm up of course.
- Be sure to drive outside your comfort zone. Keep it on the track of course, but if/when you hit the dirt, its a learning experience. Take it as just that. Driving fast is one thing, Driving smart is another, driving smart AND fast is what seperates Good and Genious. Oh, and keep your inputs smooth.
Have Fun
Enjoy
-Dan
| Fred | 04-14-2003 09:33 PM |
I have to reply to this, because I just got back from my first track school at VIR. We were on the south course, for anybody who knows it. I had fresh Motul RBF600, stainless steel lines, WRX rotors and Axxis Ultimate pads ($50 from Carbotech Engineering). Toward the end of 3rd-6th sessions (30 min each), the brakes began to fade just a little bit, but I wasn't braking as hard as the car could for each turn. I was hitting 105mph on the front straight, around 80 or so before the Spiral (too busy to check), about 75 before Fishook (sp?) and high 90's before turn 11. These were the hard braking zones, and there was not a whole lot of time in between them. With an extra 200 lbs (WRX vs RS), you may be affected differently. Oh - I actually only went through less than half the front pads, too!
Handling mods were struts, springs, Group N topmounts, rear sway bar, and Kumho MXes on Saturday/ Falken Azenis on Sunday.
I am very glad that I didn't have to worry about brakes, because it wouldn't have been near as fun, and I wouldn't have been able to push my car so hard.
More advice: drink lots of water, pay attention in class, learn the flags and hand signals, drink lots of water, don't turn in yet (wait, wait, wait, okay now turn in) KEEP YOUR EYES UP AND LOOK WAY AHEAD - NOT AT THE APEXES, CONES, ETC., do everything your instructor tells you to do, drink lots of water, and have fun! Don't focus on the car so much, other than checking the safety items, like lugnuts, tires and brake pads.
Hopefully you'll be like me and be scared silly when you first go out there (and I drive the crap out of my car at autoxes), but be pretty fast when you finish. Good luck and have fun!
Kevin Allen
Handling mods were struts, springs, Group N topmounts, rear sway bar, and Kumho MXes on Saturday/ Falken Azenis on Sunday.
I am very glad that I didn't have to worry about brakes, because it wouldn't have been near as fun, and I wouldn't have been able to push my car so hard.
More advice: drink lots of water, pay attention in class, learn the flags and hand signals, drink lots of water, don't turn in yet (wait, wait, wait, okay now turn in) KEEP YOUR EYES UP AND LOOK WAY AHEAD - NOT AT THE APEXES, CONES, ETC., do everything your instructor tells you to do, drink lots of water, and have fun! Don't focus on the car so much, other than checking the safety items, like lugnuts, tires and brake pads.
Hopefully you'll be like me and be scared silly when you first go out there (and I drive the crap out of my car at autoxes), but be pretty fast when you finish. Good luck and have fun!
Kevin Allen
| Wombat North | 04-14-2003 10:29 PM |
Having read most of this thread there is one golden rule to remember.
"AT THE END OF A TRACK DAY YOU HAVE TO DRIVE YOUR CAR HOME"
What others have said about brake fluid and pads is required.
FWIW
Last track day
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=259981&highlight[/url]
"AT THE END OF A TRACK DAY YOU HAVE TO DRIVE YOUR CAR HOME"
What others have said about brake fluid and pads is required.
FWIW
Last track day
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=259981&highlight[/url]
| XT6Wagon | 04-16-2003 03:59 AM |
all I have to say to the brake people is YOU ARE COMPLETELY FULL OF IT!!!!. If you don't have enough brakes stock to late brake, don't. There is no law in this universe that says 100% brakes as late as possible.
More over its not a safety problem unless the brakes go away suddenly and nearly competely. Which has happened to me when I was running my SHO on a couple of fun laps, but I admit that I was way over driving them. The 911 turbo (930?) didn't loose me at all until I pooched a pair of fast corners. I cooked off the brakes doing so, and the end of the main straight was fun doing 100+ with next to nothing left. Lucky for me the corner off of it was minor, and the track followed a near straight line from there if you don't mind ditching the racing line to burn off speed.
So from then on I nurse my brakes more, and on the roadcourse I definitly do test new setups, and brake very early on the fast stuff till I KNOW I still will have brakes in this situation. More over as I feel them start to go away I decide if backing off to cool them is appropriate, let off a little on them to hold the line, or push on to get the last lap out of them. So far I have never seen the point to the last, but I have never been racing for fame or $$$ so safety has allways been a few notches higher than lap times.
More over its not a safety problem unless the brakes go away suddenly and nearly competely. Which has happened to me when I was running my SHO on a couple of fun laps, but I admit that I was way over driving them. The 911 turbo (930?) didn't loose me at all until I pooched a pair of fast corners. I cooked off the brakes doing so, and the end of the main straight was fun doing 100+ with next to nothing left. Lucky for me the corner off of it was minor, and the track followed a near straight line from there if you don't mind ditching the racing line to burn off speed.
So from then on I nurse my brakes more, and on the roadcourse I definitly do test new setups, and brake very early on the fast stuff till I KNOW I still will have brakes in this situation. More over as I feel them start to go away I decide if backing off to cool them is appropriate, let off a little on them to hold the line, or push on to get the last lap out of them. So far I have never seen the point to the last, but I have never been racing for fame or $$$ so safety has allways been a few notches higher than lap times.
| sdecker | 04-16-2003 09:51 AM |
Ummm....read the title of the thread.
| ScreaminFast | 04-16-2003 10:05 AM |
Thanks for all the help guys, here's what i think I'm going to do....
I have (4) Kumho Ecsta MX's in 225/50R16's that are going to go on a second set of stock rims for AutoX and track only....I'm considering getting Stoptech's Stage 2 brake upgrade which is Axxis Ultimates, Slotted Rotors, SS lines, and Motul RBF600, and only $500. I'm super excited about this, and I still haven't found a helmet. I think my dad is going to buy me one for me when I graduate this may :D
I believe a few of my friends and my dad are coming down to the track with me, so we will have a lot of tools, and I'll make sure I buy an extra set of ultimates, and a bottle of fluid just in case :)
Keep any suggestions (*cough* or flames) coming!!
-Mike
I have (4) Kumho Ecsta MX's in 225/50R16's that are going to go on a second set of stock rims for AutoX and track only....I'm considering getting Stoptech's Stage 2 brake upgrade which is Axxis Ultimates, Slotted Rotors, SS lines, and Motul RBF600, and only $500. I'm super excited about this, and I still haven't found a helmet. I think my dad is going to buy me one for me when I graduate this may :D
I believe a few of my friends and my dad are coming down to the track with me, so we will have a lot of tools, and I'll make sure I buy an extra set of ultimates, and a bottle of fluid just in case :)
Keep any suggestions (*cough* or flames) coming!!
-Mike
| ScreaminFast | 04-21-2003 09:28 AM |
Just a small update....this past weekend I ran an autoX on those kumho MX's and got first place....w00t :D
| IXLR8 | 04-21-2003 05:57 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]Just remember Don, the older you get, the faster you were.
We know that you used to race in the snow on organic rubber slicks using brake pads made out of cork. And you were damn faster than all these whippersnappers. We know. [/B][/QUOTE]
Where/when did this become about who's faster?
You seem to continue to miss the main point here: Track Days aren't racing. They're about having fun safely and maybe improving ones driving skills. Objectives a box stock WRX will work just fine to acheive (especially for a first time student).
I'm surprised if you're an instructor you don't recognize that.
PS. Nice job ScreaminFast
[B]Just remember Don, the older you get, the faster you were.
We know that you used to race in the snow on organic rubber slicks using brake pads made out of cork. And you were damn faster than all these whippersnappers. We know. [/B][/QUOTE]
Where/when did this become about who's faster?
You seem to continue to miss the main point here: Track Days aren't racing. They're about having fun safely and maybe improving ones driving skills. Objectives a box stock WRX will work just fine to acheive (especially for a first time student).
I'm surprised if you're an instructor you don't recognize that.
PS. Nice job ScreaminFast
| randy zimmer | 04-21-2003 06:59 PM |
still not arguing but...
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"I'm considering getting Stoptech's Stage 2 brake upgrade which is Axxis Ultimates, Slotted Rotors, SS lines, and Motul RBF600, and only $500. I'm super excited about this, and I still haven't found a helmet."
So the "$50" brake pads turned into a $500 major upgrade that usurped the helmet purchase that IS required. All this for a track that has one wimpy braking zone, oh well, it looks like the guy's bucks-up anyway so it didn't discourage him from quiting before he started which would have been a shame.
About the overnight improvement...
" On the second day (earlier today), he bought some race pads from an on-track vendor and was from the get-go much more consistent, relaxed, he ended up learning a whole lot and was good enough to go solo by the end of the day."
SCCA used to have all 2-day driving schools and they have sadly, been dissappearing. My experience is that a student's warm-up laps the second day are usually faster than his best lap of the first day. I credit the power of sleep and dreaming about the whole experience with this and anyone who pounds around lap after lap is doing himself a disservice by not taking time to think and reflect, even for 5 minutes about what they're doing and could do better.
I'm glad you young guys don't mind riding with "the king of the late brakers" even when they're clueless 1st-timers.
A Bonus "Instructor's Corner" (no charge)
A friend went to Superbike School and came back with some good info. Because the bikes stop SO fast, it is easy to go past the speed you want for the turn. They practice using NO brakes by picking a speed and turning in while slowly increasing the speed each lap until they find their target speed. Then they start going faster on the straights and braking down to that target speed they now have in their mind. (It is usually MUCH faster than the speed their brain said the turn could possibly be taken at before the exercise).
If that means actually INSTRUCTING instead of riding around as an expert, self-proclaimed or otherwise, then THAT would be a real plus for your student.
Does a coach or instructor need to be Rick Mears? I learned very important information from a guy who was probably the second slowest driver ever at Lime Rock, it didn't make his info wrong, in-fact, I told some of what he told me earlier in this thread.
rz
So the "$50" brake pads turned into a $500 major upgrade that usurped the helmet purchase that IS required. All this for a track that has one wimpy braking zone, oh well, it looks like the guy's bucks-up anyway so it didn't discourage him from quiting before he started which would have been a shame.
About the overnight improvement...
" On the second day (earlier today), he bought some race pads from an on-track vendor and was from the get-go much more consistent, relaxed, he ended up learning a whole lot and was good enough to go solo by the end of the day."
SCCA used to have all 2-day driving schools and they have sadly, been dissappearing. My experience is that a student's warm-up laps the second day are usually faster than his best lap of the first day. I credit the power of sleep and dreaming about the whole experience with this and anyone who pounds around lap after lap is doing himself a disservice by not taking time to think and reflect, even for 5 minutes about what they're doing and could do better.
I'm glad you young guys don't mind riding with "the king of the late brakers" even when they're clueless 1st-timers.
A Bonus "Instructor's Corner" (no charge)
A friend went to Superbike School and came back with some good info. Because the bikes stop SO fast, it is easy to go past the speed you want for the turn. They practice using NO brakes by picking a speed and turning in while slowly increasing the speed each lap until they find their target speed. Then they start going faster on the straights and braking down to that target speed they now have in their mind. (It is usually MUCH faster than the speed their brain said the turn could possibly be taken at before the exercise).
If that means actually INSTRUCTING instead of riding around as an expert, self-proclaimed or otherwise, then THAT would be a real plus for your student.
Does a coach or instructor need to be Rick Mears? I learned very important information from a guy who was probably the second slowest driver ever at Lime Rock, it didn't make his info wrong, in-fact, I told some of what he told me earlier in this thread.
rz
| ScreaminFast | 04-21-2003 07:11 PM |
I'm not necessarily jumping into braking mods, etc....its just that I like to upgrade my car regardless of what events I will be doing. I'm definitely very anxious about this trip to lime rock, and I hope it to be a learning experience and that I can get a lot out of my runs there. I wish some of you guys who are scooby drivers were my instructors because you already know the car.
BTW, hehe, I ordered my helmet today :) Brand new pre-release Bell K1-Sport.....Its basically the Bell dominator except that instead of kevlar its fiberglass :D
Thanks for all the help, and I hope to keep this thread going as I get new ideas and more autoX experience until it finally comes down to the weeks/days/ hours before I go to the track :devil:
-Mike :alien:
BTW, hehe, I ordered my helmet today :) Brand new pre-release Bell K1-Sport.....Its basically the Bell dominator except that instead of kevlar its fiberglass :D
Thanks for all the help, and I hope to keep this thread going as I get new ideas and more autoX experience until it finally comes down to the weeks/days/ hours before I go to the track :devil:
-Mike :alien:
| archmanzREX04 | 04-21-2003 10:20 PM |
Alright, I finally had to jump into this one!;) The following is my two cents and what I have learned thus far:
Brakes - I strongly recommend upgraded pads. Not the ones that are so aggressive that you don't have any rotor left, but some good, quality pads. The OEMs always try and save a few cents in this category. The big disclaimer here is to judge how you will drive and do accordingly. Until you know for sure, at least take another set of stockers with you. This is coming from a guy who drove his Cavalier home on the backing plates in rush-hour traffic. Thank God for manual transmissions and compression-braking. One could argue that a newbie has no use for more than stock brakes: I burnt a brand new set of pads off on only my 2nd day on a track...I guess I don't drive like a newbie...
As for the arguement of "backing off" when the brakes fade: I disagree. Once you fade the brakes, you should pit. It's unsafe to do otherwise. I hate it cause that cuts into my track time. I also hate slowing down; with every lap I want to be faster. If I was into "cruising" I would drive on the street. Once you've driven at 10/10ths, its mentally hard to slow down and your timing gets all fk'd up; that's why you start slow.
Tires - as mentioned before, stay away from R-compounds. I liken them to a supermodel girlfriend: they cost more that you got, they do little bitching until it's too late, and they're high-maintenance. These tires must be cycled properly or else they are crap. Heat them up too much - guess what - yup. The high performance street tires these days are awesome. Stick with them until you get serious.
Don't change the car. It's easy to make all kinds of mods, but really, you want to avoid this. Run stock wheel/tire/suspension until you can "drive" the car. This is told by your lap times being consistent. And yes, track driving is waaaay different than autocross, so your mods may not work well anymore anyway.
Take it for what it's worth...
Brakes - I strongly recommend upgraded pads. Not the ones that are so aggressive that you don't have any rotor left, but some good, quality pads. The OEMs always try and save a few cents in this category. The big disclaimer here is to judge how you will drive and do accordingly. Until you know for sure, at least take another set of stockers with you. This is coming from a guy who drove his Cavalier home on the backing plates in rush-hour traffic. Thank God for manual transmissions and compression-braking. One could argue that a newbie has no use for more than stock brakes: I burnt a brand new set of pads off on only my 2nd day on a track...I guess I don't drive like a newbie...
As for the arguement of "backing off" when the brakes fade: I disagree. Once you fade the brakes, you should pit. It's unsafe to do otherwise. I hate it cause that cuts into my track time. I also hate slowing down; with every lap I want to be faster. If I was into "cruising" I would drive on the street. Once you've driven at 10/10ths, its mentally hard to slow down and your timing gets all fk'd up; that's why you start slow.
Tires - as mentioned before, stay away from R-compounds. I liken them to a supermodel girlfriend: they cost more that you got, they do little bitching until it's too late, and they're high-maintenance. These tires must be cycled properly or else they are crap. Heat them up too much - guess what - yup. The high performance street tires these days are awesome. Stick with them until you get serious.
Don't change the car. It's easy to make all kinds of mods, but really, you want to avoid this. Run stock wheel/tire/suspension until you can "drive" the car. This is told by your lap times being consistent. And yes, track driving is waaaay different than autocross, so your mods may not work well anymore anyway.
Take it for what it's worth...
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