| allsubaru83 | 06-02-2005 12:46 AM |
[QUOTE=esteve]:lol: :lol:
Well, he could've been more nasty. At least he got along with Vasser, or so it seems.[/QUOTE]
yeah no kidding :lol: :lol:
Well, he could've been more nasty. At least he got along with Vasser, or so it seems.[/QUOTE]
yeah no kidding :lol: :lol:
| artkevin | 06-02-2005 09:21 AM |
[QUOTE=HomerJay]Geeze. Who didn't go off in that race? I think everybody hit the gravel at least once except Ruebens. I don't know if the new tire rule is proving to be very safe for the drivers. Maybe next year when the car will be down on HP due to much smaller engines, tire wear won't be as a big an issue.[/QUOTE]
I have no faith that the V-8s will slow the cars down in the long run. They will be at first but I can't see them not being as fast by season's end. Last time I checked, BMW and Merc made pretty good V-8s. They will probably loose 2 seconds a lap like they did this year and after a few months the hp of the big hitters will be back.
I have no faith that the V-8s will slow the cars down in the long run. They will be at first but I can't see them not being as fast by season's end. Last time I checked, BMW and Merc made pretty good V-8s. They will probably loose 2 seconds a lap like they did this year and after a few months the hp of the big hitters will be back.
| BillT | 06-02-2005 09:30 AM |
They'll find ways to increase the rev's (reported to be over 20k now with 22k predicted by the time they take them to the track) to make up for the lack of displacement.
| AndyRoo | 06-02-2005 09:47 AM |
[QUOTE=BillT]They'll find ways to increase the rev's (reported to be over 20k now with 22k predicted by the time they take them to the track) to make up for the lack of displacement.[/QUOTE]
good lord! :eek: i wonder how many busted engines we'll see next year...
- andrew
good lord! :eek: i wonder how many busted engines we'll see next year...
- andrew
| artkevin | 06-02-2005 10:38 AM |
Wasn't the BMW v10 of a few years ago reported to be the fastest spining piston engine in human history a few years back? I remeber Matchett saying something about it at Monza when JPM set the fastest lap in history. That was back when they were hitting 18k rpm as a redline, now they are getting 19k and soon to be 22!
| Andrman | 06-02-2005 06:46 PM |
What does everyone think about safety in regards to the new one-set-per-weekend tire rule? Had it not been for those retention cords, Kimi very well could have died in almost the same way Senna did. I was listening to the latest podcast at formulapod.com and the guy expressed a very strong opinion that the rule is making the races more interesting at the expense of safety. At first I agreed, because it does seem a little ridiculous that the premier motorsport uses one set of tires per race. But then I thought about it a little more...
The rule allows for tires to be replaced in the name of safety. One team did this on Sunday, I think it was a Minardi or other low-placing team. I don't know if McLaren didn't think the stewards would see it as a safety issue or if Kimi just didn't want to lose his lead, but for whatever reason he did not change the tire. As for if that was the right choice... the suspension sure came close to finishing the race just fine- it was anybody's call. Who knows what the thought process was during the race, since everything goes so fast, but in retrospect I think the rule is good as is and McLaren's decision-making was not. Kimi flat spotted his tire, had the option to change it, and chose not to. Hopefully next time the teams will use this precedent to make a smarter decision.
The rule allows for tires to be replaced in the name of safety. One team did this on Sunday, I think it was a Minardi or other low-placing team. I don't know if McLaren didn't think the stewards would see it as a safety issue or if Kimi just didn't want to lose his lead, but for whatever reason he did not change the tire. As for if that was the right choice... the suspension sure came close to finishing the race just fine- it was anybody's call. Who knows what the thought process was during the race, since everything goes so fast, but in retrospect I think the rule is good as is and McLaren's decision-making was not. Kimi flat spotted his tire, had the option to change it, and chose not to. Hopefully next time the teams will use this precedent to make a smarter decision.
| artkevin | 06-02-2005 07:42 PM |
I can not and will not blame Kimi or Merc for keeping him out. They were playing to the rules as best they could. I personally think the rule is useless. Do we the fans gain anything from 1 tire per race? Are the tires better overall more then they would have been with natural evolution? I don't think so but i could be wrong.
I read on pittpass.com that the FIA has warned that teams will be black flagged if the same type of ting happens in the future. Please tell me how that improves the show. A car like Kimi's gets 1 braking point late flats spots his tires and now he HAS to pit or be disqualified. To me it seems it is hurting racing. They are asking the drivers to brake earlier and not take risks. Like it or not, we all like to see ballzee moves. With this rule and new enforcement how many more guys are going to pull a Heidfeld and make that lung for second when he can be safe and get third?
I don't like it.
I read on pittpass.com that the FIA has warned that teams will be black flagged if the same type of ting happens in the future. Please tell me how that improves the show. A car like Kimi's gets 1 braking point late flats spots his tires and now he HAS to pit or be disqualified. To me it seems it is hurting racing. They are asking the drivers to brake earlier and not take risks. Like it or not, we all like to see ballzee moves. With this rule and new enforcement how many more guys are going to pull a Heidfeld and make that lung for second when he can be safe and get third?
I don't like it.
| OnTheGas | 06-02-2005 10:48 PM |
A Better Solution
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[QUOTE=artkevin]...we all like to see ballzee moves. With this rule and new enforcement how many more guys are going to pull a Heidfeld and make that lung for second when he can be safe and get third?[/QUOTE]Funny that you should mention that because Heidfeld didn't flat spot his tires when passed he Alonso @ the chicane in Monaco. Heidfeld is a pretty clean, smooth driver, and he made a fan of his boss, Sam Michael, with that pass, and also with his Nurbringring drive.
[quote=Andrman]What does everyone think about safety in regards to the new one-set-per-weekend tire rule?[/quote]After the race, Ron Dennis said that they discussed Kimi's tire and the "dangerous condition" qualification extensively on the pit wall after lap 34 (when Kimi flat spotted trying pass Villeneuve). They were not sure what would qualify as "dangerous condition".
[b]The solution[/b] is to remove the "dangerous condition" qualification completely, and replace it with the following:
A single tire may be changed at anytime during the race. Only 1 tire may be changed per pit stop, and the car may not be refueled during the same stop.
So then it would not matter why a driver wants to change a tire, and the race stewards, and/or FIA won't have to judge whether or not it was truly a "dangerous condition".
Instead, FIA will know that any team that opts to change a tire will lose 20 seconds or more (depending track/pit layout). Furthermore, only 1 tire at a time may be changed, so there will not be any distinct performance advantage because the car will be running on 3 race worn tires, and 1 fresher tire.
[quote=Andrman]What does everyone think about safety in regards to the new one-set-per-weekend tire rule?[/quote]After the race, Ron Dennis said that they discussed Kimi's tire and the "dangerous condition" qualification extensively on the pit wall after lap 34 (when Kimi flat spotted trying pass Villeneuve). They were not sure what would qualify as "dangerous condition".
[b]The solution[/b] is to remove the "dangerous condition" qualification completely, and replace it with the following:
A single tire may be changed at anytime during the race. Only 1 tire may be changed per pit stop, and the car may not be refueled during the same stop.
So then it would not matter why a driver wants to change a tire, and the race stewards, and/or FIA won't have to judge whether or not it was truly a "dangerous condition".
Instead, FIA will know that any team that opts to change a tire will lose 20 seconds or more (depending track/pit layout). Furthermore, only 1 tire at a time may be changed, so there will not be any distinct performance advantage because the car will be running on 3 race worn tires, and 1 fresher tire.
| Andrman | 06-02-2005 11:06 PM |
Ooh, I like that... a very good compromise. The same strategy and design would have to go into the tires but it would simplify changes being made in the name of safety. Then minor errors like Kimi's wouldn't seal their fate in the race. Maybe the racing would even be more interesting.
Agreed on the remarks about Heidfeld. We'll have to see if he can keep it up!
Agreed on the remarks about Heidfeld. We'll have to see if he can keep it up!
| OnTheGas | 06-02-2005 11:18 PM |
Kevin's Prescient Prediction!
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[QUOTE=artkevin]...Lets go with:
1 The Kimster (he always does well here, just his car doesn't)...[/QUOTE]I enjoy looking back to the first page or two of these threads after the race, and see who seemed to have the gift of the crystal ball, or whatever it is!
Kevin might win this round! Kimi did very well all weekend. If his front suspension had been a little bit stronger, he would stood on the top step of the podium (although w/blurred vision)!
1 The Kimster (he always does well here, just his car doesn't)...[/QUOTE]I enjoy looking back to the first page or two of these threads after the race, and see who seemed to have the gift of the crystal ball, or whatever it is!
Kevin might win this round! Kimi did very well all weekend. If his front suspension had been a little bit stronger, he would stood on the top step of the podium (although w/blurred vision)!
| artkevin | 06-02-2005 11:42 PM |
That would be the 1st time I have ever got any thing right on these predictions things.
| heffergm | 06-03-2005 08:29 AM |
[QUOTE]"The Stewarts' decision was based on the telemetry data, which apparently showed he did brake check him."[/QUOTE]
STEWARDS... they're Stewards. The Stewart's are some family that lives over in Hoboken.
STEWARDS... they're Stewards. The Stewart's are some family that lives over in Hoboken.
| TimStevens | 06-03-2005 08:32 AM |
They have a great chain of convenience shops here in upstate NY; pretty decent rootbeer, too.
| OnTheGas | 06-03-2005 01:44 PM |
Montoya @ Monaco 2005
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[QUOTE=Dussander]In regards to Juan's Monaco Practice 4 issue...I will have to go with Jenson Button who... said it didn't look like Juan brake checked Ralf.[/QUOTE]I didn't see it either, but data from Montoya's car showed he had slowed 180 metres ahead of his usual braking position. His speed at the point of the accident was 86.4 kph compared to 278.3 kph on his previous fast lap. The section of track where this occured is the high speed run from St. Devote up to Casino Square, and because of bends and crests, Coulthard and Villeneuve were blind to Montoya's brake check of Ralfie.
Afterwards, [b]Ralf said[/b], "I stayed well within the yellow lines and if for whatever reason I held him up I am sorry. Basically he brake-tested me and held me up to say 'You held me up, you sh**'. I am sure he didn't believe someone could crash but it just wasn't necessary."
Coulthard and Villeneuve were very upset with Montoya, because of the danger to which Montoya had subjected themselves and the neighboring spectators and personel.
[b]Villeneuve said[/b] Montoya had already blocked him on the previous lap, driving slowly in the middle of the track after coming out of the pits.
"Then the next lap I guess Ralf blocked him and he slowed down and they were both going slowly and there was nothing we could do."
"I'm just lucky I hit David's gearbox instead of hitting his rear wheel."
From Jacques' viewpoint, perhaps we should keep in mind that his father, Gilles, was killed in a practice session after his Ferrari hit a slower car. But I think that Jacques more likely had in his mind the fatal accident at Melbourne in March 2001 when his BAR clipped the rear of Ralf Schumacher's Williams as the German braked in front of him, and a marshal was hit by Jacques' flying front wheel and died on the spot.
[b]Mark Webber[/b] commented that during a prior driver's meeting, it had been mentioned to be careful where you lift off the gas because this track is narrow, and fairly blind in places.
[IMG]http://www.formula1.com/photos/597x478/tvimages/2005/monaco/satpic1.jpg[/IMG]
So Montoya's penalty of starting at the back of the grid for the race was justified.
But I tend to look at this situation from [b]the viewpoint of McLaren and Ron Dennis[/b]. By Saturday's 2nd practice, McLaren had much confidence of their race pace. Remember that McLaren had chosen the soft compound, and Renault had chosen to use the harder compound. McLaren was fairly confident that their cars were going to be friendly to their tires, and their main opposition in the constructors championship would likely not have enough grip with the harder compounds, and might be vulnerable on Sunday.
For the McLaren team, a 1, 2 finish was a very real possibility. Montoya knows Monaco very well. He won Monaco in 2003, and he had been fastest runner in Thursday's 1st practice session. Kimi is driving with much confidence. A Sunday 1, 2 was very much in sight.
After the stewards announced the penalty, Ron Dennis said, "Juan Pablo will now be looking to finish in the top eight which is [b]not what this team is about and it is very disappointing[/b]. There is not an appeal process so there is nothing we can do. It was [b]in a practice session, which counts for nothing[/b], and incidents are part of racing."
Personally, I must confess that I'm a Montoya fan, having watched him in the Skip Barber junior formulas here in the states, as well as his CART career. I was able to see his win at Long Beach in person, and his driving there impressed me. So, overall, I agree w/artkevin's [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9916456&postcount=21]defense of Montoya[/URL] in this thread. It is time for Montoya to shine. Monaco was a waste of an opportunity. Nurburgring was dissappointing. If Montoya steps up his performance, we should see some McLaren 1, 2s now. I do hope Juan shines.
Afterwards, [b]Ralf said[/b], "I stayed well within the yellow lines and if for whatever reason I held him up I am sorry. Basically he brake-tested me and held me up to say 'You held me up, you sh**'. I am sure he didn't believe someone could crash but it just wasn't necessary."
Coulthard and Villeneuve were very upset with Montoya, because of the danger to which Montoya had subjected themselves and the neighboring spectators and personel.
[b]Villeneuve said[/b] Montoya had already blocked him on the previous lap, driving slowly in the middle of the track after coming out of the pits.
"Then the next lap I guess Ralf blocked him and he slowed down and they were both going slowly and there was nothing we could do."
"I'm just lucky I hit David's gearbox instead of hitting his rear wheel."
From Jacques' viewpoint, perhaps we should keep in mind that his father, Gilles, was killed in a practice session after his Ferrari hit a slower car. But I think that Jacques more likely had in his mind the fatal accident at Melbourne in March 2001 when his BAR clipped the rear of Ralf Schumacher's Williams as the German braked in front of him, and a marshal was hit by Jacques' flying front wheel and died on the spot.
[b]Mark Webber[/b] commented that during a prior driver's meeting, it had been mentioned to be careful where you lift off the gas because this track is narrow, and fairly blind in places.
[IMG]http://www.formula1.com/photos/597x478/tvimages/2005/monaco/satpic1.jpg[/IMG]
So Montoya's penalty of starting at the back of the grid for the race was justified.
But I tend to look at this situation from [b]the viewpoint of McLaren and Ron Dennis[/b]. By Saturday's 2nd practice, McLaren had much confidence of their race pace. Remember that McLaren had chosen the soft compound, and Renault had chosen to use the harder compound. McLaren was fairly confident that their cars were going to be friendly to their tires, and their main opposition in the constructors championship would likely not have enough grip with the harder compounds, and might be vulnerable on Sunday.
For the McLaren team, a 1, 2 finish was a very real possibility. Montoya knows Monaco very well. He won Monaco in 2003, and he had been fastest runner in Thursday's 1st practice session. Kimi is driving with much confidence. A Sunday 1, 2 was very much in sight.
After the stewards announced the penalty, Ron Dennis said, "Juan Pablo will now be looking to finish in the top eight which is [b]not what this team is about and it is very disappointing[/b]. There is not an appeal process so there is nothing we can do. It was [b]in a practice session, which counts for nothing[/b], and incidents are part of racing."
Personally, I must confess that I'm a Montoya fan, having watched him in the Skip Barber junior formulas here in the states, as well as his CART career. I was able to see his win at Long Beach in person, and his driving there impressed me. So, overall, I agree w/artkevin's [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9916456&postcount=21]defense of Montoya[/URL] in this thread. It is time for Montoya to shine. Monaco was a waste of an opportunity. Nurburgring was dissappointing. If Montoya steps up his performance, we should see some McLaren 1, 2s now. I do hope Juan shines.
| Andrman | 06-03-2005 02:02 PM |
Alright I'm confused. First you said that you agreed that JPM did not brake check. Then you call it a brake check. And Ralf says it was a brake check. So what was it?
And this happened in practice? Is it really that big of a deal if someone holds you up in practice? If JPM did brake check him and caused those other drivers to collide, then I'm sorry that's really bad form.
And this happened in practice? Is it really that big of a deal if someone holds you up in practice? If JPM did brake check him and caused those other drivers to collide, then I'm sorry that's really bad form.
| heffergm | 06-03-2005 02:10 PM |
Montoya's a whining child in a man's body... he most certainly brake checked Ralf simply because he was feeling petulant at the time. He certainly put Ralf in danger, along with those behind both of them (and himself). If the stewards want to dump him to the back of the field for being an asshat, so be it.
Montoya needs to smarten up and realize that where you finish on Sunday is the result of a lot of things leading up to that point, not the least of which is concentrating on practice/driving/car setup and not being a dillweed to fellow drivers. What a tool.
Montoya needs to smarten up and realize that where you finish on Sunday is the result of a lot of things leading up to that point, not the least of which is concentrating on practice/driving/car setup and not being a dillweed to fellow drivers. What a tool.
| Dussander | 06-03-2005 05:13 PM |
I don't know if Montoya brake checked or not, but I can certainly imagine a need to brake on the run up to Casino square to let a quicker car by. The line passes through both sides of the armco and thus the "offline" has to pass through the racing line. If you were "offline" and someone was coming up behind you quickly, you may need to brake to slow down the inevitable driving through the racing line. Montoya never said he didn't brake, he said he braked so Villeneuve could pass because he was on a hot lap and he (Montoya) was already going so slow because of his run in with Ralf. Montoya said both him and Ralf were over (offline) but David was not. Really I would like to see it in video so I could see the timing involved.
Speaking of Monaco, anyone have an opinion on Michael supposidly turning off his car after losing his front wing from hiting David? Some claimed he was trying to get the race red flagged, but I never heard anything in the press about it. From the coverage it certainly didn't look like Michael was stuck, but simply not moving. If true, and I'm not saying it is, that would certainly be a dangerous to others move.
Speaking of Monaco, anyone have an opinion on Michael supposidly turning off his car after losing his front wing from hiting David? Some claimed he was trying to get the race red flagged, but I never heard anything in the press about it. From the coverage it certainly didn't look like Michael was stuck, but simply not moving. If true, and I'm not saying it is, that would certainly be a dangerous to others move.
| artkevin | 06-03-2005 05:43 PM |
That would be dangerous and not too surprising but I have not heard that at all. The problem with that theory is that if he turned his car off to get the race red flagged they would have had to use the marshall's clutch to get the car to move and I think that you have to do some serious work to get everything set back to normal.
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