| Jon Bogert | 12-26-2001 08:44 PM |
Kit car for track days?
Lately I've been thinking that maybe turning my Impreza into a single purpose track beast isn't the smartest idea, given how I still need to drive it to work.
So browsing around for an alternative, I start reading about kit cars--specifically Lotus 7 replicas and similar concepts--and the concept seems VERY interesting. I'm not talking about some re-bodied Fiero or VW here, these are tube frame, fiberglass body cars with double wishbone suspensions. I'm thinking < $15,000 total cost; 1000 - 1200lbs means motorcycle engine or 2.0L 4-banger can provide enough power for < 5 sec 0-60; less weight = cheap brakes, cheap tires, less wear and tear.
Plus, there are several interesting body styles if you don't care for the bicycle fender look of the Lotus replicas.
Here are a few I've been looking at:
Sylva Phoenix
[IMG]http://www.rallystuff.com/images/kc_phoenix.jpg[/IMG]
Fisher Fury
[IMG]http://www.rallystuff.com/images/kc_fury.jpg[/IMG]
Sylva Stylus
[IMG]http://www.rallystuff.com/images/kc_stylus.jpg[/IMG]
Somewhat more expensive, the mid-engined Ginetta G12 replica
[IMG]http://www.rallystuff.com/images/kc_g12.jpg[/IMG]
Whaddaya think? Has anyone here built a kit car?
So browsing around for an alternative, I start reading about kit cars--specifically Lotus 7 replicas and similar concepts--and the concept seems VERY interesting. I'm not talking about some re-bodied Fiero or VW here, these are tube frame, fiberglass body cars with double wishbone suspensions. I'm thinking < $15,000 total cost; 1000 - 1200lbs means motorcycle engine or 2.0L 4-banger can provide enough power for < 5 sec 0-60; less weight = cheap brakes, cheap tires, less wear and tear.
Plus, there are several interesting body styles if you don't care for the bicycle fender look of the Lotus replicas.
Here are a few I've been looking at:
Sylva Phoenix
[IMG]http://www.rallystuff.com/images/kc_phoenix.jpg[/IMG]
Fisher Fury
[IMG]http://www.rallystuff.com/images/kc_fury.jpg[/IMG]
Sylva Stylus
[IMG]http://www.rallystuff.com/images/kc_stylus.jpg[/IMG]
Somewhat more expensive, the mid-engined Ginetta G12 replica
[IMG]http://www.rallystuff.com/images/kc_g12.jpg[/IMG]
Whaddaya think? Has anyone here built a kit car?
| p-car | 12-26-2001 09:01 PM |
It's a little more expensive, but how'bout a Caterham ?
[IMG]http://www.rmsci.com/picarchive/eprod7.jpg[/IMG]
[URL]http://www.rmsci.com/[/URL]
You might find a used one and save a few bucks.
john
[IMG]http://www.rmsci.com/picarchive/eprod7.jpg[/IMG]
[URL]http://www.rmsci.com/[/URL]
You might find a used one and save a few bucks.
john
| Chunky_Chicken | 12-27-2001 12:51 AM |
Check out a Formula SAE car. They run 600cc bike engines on cars weighing in around 480lbs (sans driver). For the events they run through a 20mm throttle restrictor, but let me tell you... take that puppy off and drivetrain parts shatter!!
I've been keeping tabs on similar vehicles. Some nut ran 2 GSXR's in a FFxRR setup. Got something south of 3s 0-60! In Vancouver there's an autocrosser running a rotax out of a snowmobile, CVT and everything. He's got about 15sq' of wing on it too!! Its planted like a hill climber.
For budget kit racers, nothing beats a bike engine in a single seater.
-Pete
I've been keeping tabs on similar vehicles. Some nut ran 2 GSXR's in a FFxRR setup. Got something south of 3s 0-60! In Vancouver there's an autocrosser running a rotax out of a snowmobile, CVT and everything. He's got about 15sq' of wing on it too!! Its planted like a hill climber.
For budget kit racers, nothing beats a bike engine in a single seater.
-Pete
| johnfelstead | 12-27-2001 05:50 AM |
I have one of the fastest 7 type cars in the world. Mine has a 330BHP Escort Cosworth Turbo engine installed. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, 0-100 in 7.5 seconds, top speed 155MPH (which it does hit on track).
Mines rather a rare beast. Westfield Zei220. Most Westfields dont have this level of performance but even the 200BHP 2 litre cars are phenominal cars to drive. There is a dealer in the USA for these cars. They sell bike engined versions as well as car engined.
Alamo Sports Cars Ltd.
3107 Broadway
San Antonio,
Texas 78209
USA
Tel: 210/828.5511
Fax: 210/828.3330
e-mail [email][email protected][/email]
They make far more sense than an Impreza on a track and you really feel what the car is doing.
Hope this helps.
[IMG]http://www.btinternet.com/~john.felstead/westie/westiecadwell.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.btinternet.com/~john.felstead/westie/westiescoob2.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.btinternet.com/~john.felstead/westie/westiescoob1.jpg[/IMG]
Mines rather a rare beast. Westfield Zei220. Most Westfields dont have this level of performance but even the 200BHP 2 litre cars are phenominal cars to drive. There is a dealer in the USA for these cars. They sell bike engined versions as well as car engined.
Alamo Sports Cars Ltd.
3107 Broadway
San Antonio,
Texas 78209
USA
Tel: 210/828.5511
Fax: 210/828.3330
e-mail [email][email protected][/email]
They make far more sense than an Impreza on a track and you really feel what the car is doing.
Hope this helps.
[IMG]http://www.btinternet.com/~john.felstead/westie/westiecadwell.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.btinternet.com/~john.felstead/westie/westiescoob2.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.btinternet.com/~john.felstead/westie/westiescoob1.jpg[/IMG]
| Orion | 12-27-2001 07:50 AM |
Jon Bogert - i personally haven't built a kitcar, yet! it's a few years off for me, i'd like to find a good Mini to race first. i love the styling of the Fisher Fury, but i would have to say the Ginetta G12 replica is the one i personally would pursue of the 4 you posted.:)
johnfelstead - every time i see pictures of that car i get incredibly jealous!!!:D
johnfelstead - every time i see pictures of that car i get incredibly jealous!!!:D
| JER | 12-27-2001 09:02 AM |
I like the hard top Ginetta
| johnfelstead | 12-27-2001 09:18 AM |
I am in the middle of helping build one of these things to race in 2002. [url]http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/latest.htm[/url]
[IMG]http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/latest/raceside.jpg[/IMG]
As per usual we are doing it the radical way by going way beyond what the designers expected. We have a supercharged 1.8 K series being built right now that will be pushing 280BHP. We have gone for a sequencial 6 speed transmision etc. The car weighs a massive 400Kg. :lol:
I'll be driving this at the nurburgring and in a sprint series all being well, the guy who owns it will race it in the Kit Car championship, i'll be doing a lot of the spanner work on this car. The guy who owns it wants me to race it in sports car races with him but i need to check that out from a budget point of view. :eek: We should kick ass as long as Jon can drive. :lol:
[IMG]http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/latest/raceside.jpg[/IMG]
As per usual we are doing it the radical way by going way beyond what the designers expected. We have a supercharged 1.8 K series being built right now that will be pushing 280BHP. We have gone for a sequencial 6 speed transmision etc. The car weighs a massive 400Kg. :lol:
I'll be driving this at the nurburgring and in a sprint series all being well, the guy who owns it will race it in the Kit Car championship, i'll be doing a lot of the spanner work on this car. The guy who owns it wants me to race it in sports car races with him but i need to check that out from a budget point of view. :eek: We should kick ass as long as Jon can drive. :lol:
| JamesC | 12-27-2001 10:40 AM |
Don't do it Jon
Hmm, first Audi's in common then Subaru's and now maybe Se7ens??
Although I prefer the 904-ish Ginetta I believe I've read less than favorable reviews in EVO on the spyder - was it G20? Have you read or driven anything on the mid Ginetta?
I've been following the same track for a bit now:
[IMG]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/1c430fd1/bc/Misc+car+pics/jbirkin.jpg?bc3K6e8AzptHQSlB[/IMG]
Was me in a Birkin Zetec 140hp last week in fact. I'm having a hard time deciding too! I think I have it narrowed at least to a Caterham, Westfield or Birkin - haven't done such a good job yet have I? Although John Felstead and I emailed back and forth quite a while ago on the subject I worry I'm slipping away from his advice of the Zetec-like route and towards the Bike-Engined-Car(BEC) route with a Megabusa Westy or Hayabusa powered Birkin (coming to UK in next 30 days for test then we can order them in US). I've ridden bikes for a while (even daily in Oregon year round where the weather is less than ideal) and miss that experience, but am torn as I don't trust drivers anymore. Would be nice to have a cage 'round my bike hence the BEC. Doesn't hurt that most tracks around here are amenable to their type of power.
If you end up going the Se7en route let me know. I have a ton of US links and people to talk to now. There is a great group of Se7en enthusiasts in the US on Yahoo!Groups as well. Of course UK info is easier to come-by and I visit their boards regularly as well.
If you'd like, have a look at these three main Se7en dealers:
[URL=http://www.uscaterham.com/]Caterham US[/URL]
[URL=http://www.alamosportscars.com/west.html]US Westy importer[/URL] - along with the traditional Westy's there is a new design out, [URL=http://www.pistonheads.com/clubmans/default.asp?storyId=3364]Westfield XTR2[/URL] - looks like an R8R clone from '99...mid-mounted Hayabusa plant and apparently more room in the cockpit than a regular se7en.
[URL=http://www.choicemall.com/texasmotorworks/]Birkin[/URL]
This is a newcomer whose reputation is unproven:
[URL=http://www.wcmultralite.com/]WCM[/URL] - they have S2000 transplants as well as Hayabusa conversions in the works or already completed. I have no first hand experience but apparently there is a lot of "history" here...if you know what I mean.
Is it Jon R. with the Ariel R? He told me he's seen some activity in the US with some Ariel importer but I couldn't find any info anywhere.
Now if only I can talk the wife out of her TTRQ...
JamesC
Although I prefer the 904-ish Ginetta I believe I've read less than favorable reviews in EVO on the spyder - was it G20? Have you read or driven anything on the mid Ginetta?
I've been following the same track for a bit now:
[IMG]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/1c430fd1/bc/Misc+car+pics/jbirkin.jpg?bc3K6e8AzptHQSlB[/IMG]
Was me in a Birkin Zetec 140hp last week in fact. I'm having a hard time deciding too! I think I have it narrowed at least to a Caterham, Westfield or Birkin - haven't done such a good job yet have I? Although John Felstead and I emailed back and forth quite a while ago on the subject I worry I'm slipping away from his advice of the Zetec-like route and towards the Bike-Engined-Car(BEC) route with a Megabusa Westy or Hayabusa powered Birkin (coming to UK in next 30 days for test then we can order them in US). I've ridden bikes for a while (even daily in Oregon year round where the weather is less than ideal) and miss that experience, but am torn as I don't trust drivers anymore. Would be nice to have a cage 'round my bike hence the BEC. Doesn't hurt that most tracks around here are amenable to their type of power.
If you end up going the Se7en route let me know. I have a ton of US links and people to talk to now. There is a great group of Se7en enthusiasts in the US on Yahoo!Groups as well. Of course UK info is easier to come-by and I visit their boards regularly as well.
If you'd like, have a look at these three main Se7en dealers:
[URL=http://www.uscaterham.com/]Caterham US[/URL]
[URL=http://www.alamosportscars.com/west.html]US Westy importer[/URL] - along with the traditional Westy's there is a new design out, [URL=http://www.pistonheads.com/clubmans/default.asp?storyId=3364]Westfield XTR2[/URL] - looks like an R8R clone from '99...mid-mounted Hayabusa plant and apparently more room in the cockpit than a regular se7en.
[URL=http://www.choicemall.com/texasmotorworks/]Birkin[/URL]
This is a newcomer whose reputation is unproven:
[URL=http://www.wcmultralite.com/]WCM[/URL] - they have S2000 transplants as well as Hayabusa conversions in the works or already completed. I have no first hand experience but apparently there is a lot of "history" here...if you know what I mean.
Is it Jon R. with the Ariel R? He told me he's seen some activity in the US with some Ariel importer but I couldn't find any info anywhere.
Now if only I can talk the wife out of her TTRQ...
JamesC
| ColinL | 12-27-2001 10:42 AM |
I'd build one of these for track days, plus you could get into spec races with it:
[img]http://www.factoryfive.com/redfrnt.jpg[/img]
[url]http://www.factoryfive.com/[/url]
[img]http://www.factoryfive.com/redfrnt.jpg[/img]
[url]http://www.factoryfive.com/[/url]
| DawnC | 12-27-2001 10:59 AM |
Re: Don't do it Jon
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JamesC [/i]
[B]
Now if only I can talk the wife out of her TTRQ...
JamesC [/B][/QUOTE]
Keep talking Mr. Notice he is not even talking about getting rid of HIS WRX. It's all about getting rid of "the wife's" car. I don't think so YOU BIG BULLY! :p Besides, if that happens, the replacement vehicle is mine by default and is that what you REALLY want???? [IMG]http://www.3dpcgame.com/cwm/s/otn/happy/auto.gif[/IMG]
[B]
Now if only I can talk the wife out of her TTRQ...
JamesC [/B][/QUOTE]
Keep talking Mr. Notice he is not even talking about getting rid of HIS WRX. It's all about getting rid of "the wife's" car. I don't think so YOU BIG BULLY! :p Besides, if that happens, the replacement vehicle is mine by default and is that what you REALLY want???? [IMG]http://www.3dpcgame.com/cwm/s/otn/happy/auto.gif[/IMG]
| JamesC | 12-27-2001 11:02 AM |
Hmm pic isn't showing reliably?
JamesC
JamesC
| Jon Bogert | 12-27-2001 11:20 AM |
Thanks for all the input! I really don't want a Seven replica, but the same concept has been applied to other, full bodied ([SIZE=1]better looking[/SIZE]) cars like the ones I mentioned.
A Cobra would be cool and a blast to drive, but I'm really trying for ultra light weight, precise handling, etc, etc.
There are more and more bike engined kit/racing cars coming out, and my first preference is something like the Ginetta G12 with a Hayabusa engine right behind my head. :D I've e-mailed back and forth with the manufacturer, though, and they don't have a production-ready kit yet.
One thing that I've run into is a phenomenon I call "kit bloat". That's when a British (they're all British) kit manufacturer chooses an official U.S. importer/reseller. All of a sudden, what was an $5,000 kit becomes a $20,000 rolling chassis, with a bunch of crap quality "value added" work already done. If I want Wilwood brakes and a fuel cell, I don't want to pay some opportunist for Pinto brakes and a rusty fuel tank. Hopefully, I'll be able to get just the parts I need direct from the source.
A Cobra would be cool and a blast to drive, but I'm really trying for ultra light weight, precise handling, etc, etc.
There are more and more bike engined kit/racing cars coming out, and my first preference is something like the Ginetta G12 with a Hayabusa engine right behind my head. :D I've e-mailed back and forth with the manufacturer, though, and they don't have a production-ready kit yet.
One thing that I've run into is a phenomenon I call "kit bloat". That's when a British (they're all British) kit manufacturer chooses an official U.S. importer/reseller. All of a sudden, what was an $5,000 kit becomes a $20,000 rolling chassis, with a bunch of crap quality "value added" work already done. If I want Wilwood brakes and a fuel cell, I don't want to pay some opportunist for Pinto brakes and a rusty fuel tank. Hopefully, I'll be able to get just the parts I need direct from the source.
| ColinL | 12-27-2001 12:02 PM |
factory fives aren't really cobras, they just look like it. 2300lb and fuel injected 302 Mustang drivetrain.
personally I wouldn't go with anything powered by a motorcycle engine because I would just buy the bike-- slightly better power-to-weight ratio, better brakes, and besides, it's a bike. ;)
personally I wouldn't go with anything powered by a motorcycle engine because I would just buy the bike-- slightly better power-to-weight ratio, better brakes, and besides, it's a bike. ;)
| Jon Bogert | 12-27-2001 12:26 PM |
Hmmm, that is pretty light (and cheap) for a Cobra replica. I admit there is an advantage to a domestic source for donor parts--it would be a long, fruitless search for Cortina uprights and Mk II Escort driveshafts at the local junkyard. :(
| JamesC | 12-27-2001 12:53 PM |
I thought I was conceding [I]something[/I] with the XTR2 ;) Fair enough. I saw your preference for non-bike fenders but chose to gloss over that part :)
The C*bra kits have a very strong following now..and still a bit of the AC heritage. Mostly gone are the fears of sending off a "deposit" on kit cars without so much as a screw in return. I can vouch for Everett Morrison in Tampa - VERY good work - but of course Fac5 has a great reputation. I'm going in the opposite direction, I want minimalist, light and modest outright hp (but phenomenal power:weight). If not a Se7en I'd probably be looking at a mid-engined 550 replica from [URL=http://www.kitcar.com/beck/home.html]Beck[/URL] although the Ginetta you've listed seems an even more pure interpretation.
Have fun choosing and let us know what you decide!!
JamesC
[email][email protected][/email]
The C*bra kits have a very strong following now..and still a bit of the AC heritage. Mostly gone are the fears of sending off a "deposit" on kit cars without so much as a screw in return. I can vouch for Everett Morrison in Tampa - VERY good work - but of course Fac5 has a great reputation. I'm going in the opposite direction, I want minimalist, light and modest outright hp (but phenomenal power:weight). If not a Se7en I'd probably be looking at a mid-engined 550 replica from [URL=http://www.kitcar.com/beck/home.html]Beck[/URL] although the Ginetta you've listed seems an even more pure interpretation.
Have fun choosing and let us know what you decide!!
JamesC
[email][email protected][/email]
| johnfelstead | 12-27-2001 02:46 PM |
I feel cast asunder. :lol:
You cant beet proper car engine generated torque chaps! Bike engines suck ass in cars on any kind of track with speed, they wont last either, especially the gearboxes and clutches. Trust me. ;)
now the twin bike engined cars make more sense due to having a more sensible transfer of torque across 2 transmision sets.
[url]http://www.tiger-sportscars.demon.co.uk/cars/z100main.htm[/url]
[IMG]http://www.tiger-sportscars.demon.co.uk/graphics/z100_a.jpg[/IMG]
You cant beet proper car engine generated torque chaps! Bike engines suck ass in cars on any kind of track with speed, they wont last either, especially the gearboxes and clutches. Trust me. ;)
now the twin bike engined cars make more sense due to having a more sensible transfer of torque across 2 transmision sets.
[url]http://www.tiger-sportscars.demon.co.uk/cars/z100main.htm[/url]
[IMG]http://www.tiger-sportscars.demon.co.uk/graphics/z100_a.jpg[/IMG]
| Eddie Mcstiff | 12-27-2001 03:24 PM |
How sweet would a Beck Lister or 550 with a EJ25 and subey drivetrain be. The tuff part would be figuring out the frontwheel drive.
| Jon Bogert | 12-27-2001 03:34 PM |
I think for a mid-engined car, a Scooby flat four and FWD gearbox would work. The shift linkage would be a nightmare I'm sure...
I was thinking a torquey tuned EJ25 up front with a lightweight rocket 4-speed driving the rear wheels would be fun in a Fury (see first post).
I was thinking a torquey tuned EJ25 up front with a lightweight rocket 4-speed driving the rear wheels would be fun in a Fury (see first post).
| JamesC | 12-27-2001 04:05 PM |
Why do you think BEC (Hayabusa) clutches only take an hour to replace?? :) I'll concede the oft mentioned torque issue but tearing through gearboxes hasn't been muttered.
JamesC
JamesC
| johnfelstead | 12-27-2001 04:13 PM |
Yet!!! :lol:
Trust me, it's coming! Most of these cars havent done 3000 miles yet. Mine has done 40,000. the last 20,000 at one hell of a pace. :lol:
Trust me, it's coming! Most of these cars havent done 3000 miles yet. Mine has done 40,000. the last 20,000 at one hell of a pace. :lol:
| jimb | 12-27-2001 04:17 PM |
John, very very sweet automobile. You brits get all the great cars. I'm thinking pretty hard about building a seven clone from the ground up (chassis and all). It'll be quite a project. Anyone have any ideas where I can get some chassis blueprints or info? I know there is a seven replica chassis in the "Build a sports car for 250$ (or pounds?)" book, but it doesn't look quite the same as the caterham and others I've seen.
jb
jb
| Sauginius | 12-27-2001 05:02 PM |
Yes John, I agree....very sweeet ride!
Wow...I had no idea there was this much interest on the I-Club about Kit Cars! I too have been looking at the kit car/track car thing for a while (particularly the 7esque cars). I've sent a few e-mails to Alamo Sports Cars about the Megabusa but I have yet to get a reply.
Does anyone know the approx. cost of building one of these in the US? I know that it would be cheaper to source your own engine/driveline but how much would the rolling chassis be? I know the Megabusa can be had for around 21K pounds in the UK....fully built and ready to run.
John, the Atom Racecar was one of the options that I was considering (with a rotary engine) but I have NO IDEA how much that thing would cost. How much for just the rolling chassis?
Wow...I had no idea there was this much interest on the I-Club about Kit Cars! I too have been looking at the kit car/track car thing for a while (particularly the 7esque cars). I've sent a few e-mails to Alamo Sports Cars about the Megabusa but I have yet to get a reply.
Does anyone know the approx. cost of building one of these in the US? I know that it would be cheaper to source your own engine/driveline but how much would the rolling chassis be? I know the Megabusa can be had for around 21K pounds in the UK....fully built and ready to run.
John, the Atom Racecar was one of the options that I was considering (with a rotary engine) but I have NO IDEA how much that thing would cost. How much for just the rolling chassis?
| johnfelstead | 12-27-2001 05:06 PM |
i dont know on the blueprint thing?
Personally i wouldnt go to all the effort of building the chassis, they are dirt cheep and properly jigged from the major supliers anyway. I think the £250 car thing looks horible, i sure as hell wouldnt fancy doing 150MPH in a car with that kind of pedigree. :eek:
Personally i wouldnt go to all the effort of building the chassis, they are dirt cheep and properly jigged from the major supliers anyway. I think the £250 car thing looks horible, i sure as hell wouldnt fancy doing 150MPH in a car with that kind of pedigree. :eek:
| johnfelstead | 12-27-2001 05:19 PM |
contact westfield direct if your not getting responded too. [url]http://www.westfield-sportscars.co.uk/[/url]
i really dont know on US costs. If i were you i would buy the kit and source the bike engine etc local. The bike engined cars use a lighter chasis than the car engined with lighter suspension etc so dont start off with a car version and think of putting a bike engine inside.
I dont know costs on the Atom either, i am not paying the bills on that project. The one i am helping with is Jon R's, i missed that bit of the post. This will be quite a trick piece of kit and is going to cost around $65,000 to build i would think. We aren't building a toy, we are building a car capable of winning it's class in the Nurburgring 24 hour race.
It's going to be fast as hell! I recon we will be around 640BHP/tonne!
I drove jon's old atom at the ring earlier in the year. Thats what led to him asking me to get involved.
i really dont know on US costs. If i were you i would buy the kit and source the bike engine etc local. The bike engined cars use a lighter chasis than the car engined with lighter suspension etc so dont start off with a car version and think of putting a bike engine inside.
I dont know costs on the Atom either, i am not paying the bills on that project. The one i am helping with is Jon R's, i missed that bit of the post. This will be quite a trick piece of kit and is going to cost around $65,000 to build i would think. We aren't building a toy, we are building a car capable of winning it's class in the Nurburgring 24 hour race.
It's going to be fast as hell! I recon we will be around 640BHP/tonne!
I drove jon's old atom at the ring earlier in the year. Thats what led to him asking me to get involved.
| randy zimmer | 12-27-2001 05:28 PM |
track car
John,
One nice thing about the caterham
[url]http://www.uscaterham.com/home.html[/url]
is that the thing is F Production legal if you went into racing for real rather than just driving around.
At Mid-Ohio = 1:38s
It has been out there for years in legal trim running well and reliably. Trust me, a science project becomes more project than driving fun. Can put plates on it too.
The guy who owns Putnam Park makes a track car (Diaso?) that is a small 956 look car and the Radical runs DSR and is competitive - meaning 1:31s at Mid-Ohio and that is pretty quick! (Atlantic poles are 20's - a Miata is a 1:47 and CART 1:05 without the chicane)
[url]http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/records/laprecords.html[/url]
Fast and cheap is a Formula Ford (1:30) but open wheels don't get in to lapping days.
A real cheap car that is raceable and has fenders is a Spec Racer Ford. FI, no slicks and pump gas. 1:43s
No maintenance needed ever and bulletproof from top to bottom.
Great fun to drive. Need to tow it - 1600#
One nice thing about the caterham
[url]http://www.uscaterham.com/home.html[/url]
is that the thing is F Production legal if you went into racing for real rather than just driving around.
At Mid-Ohio = 1:38s
It has been out there for years in legal trim running well and reliably. Trust me, a science project becomes more project than driving fun. Can put plates on it too.
The guy who owns Putnam Park makes a track car (Diaso?) that is a small 956 look car and the Radical runs DSR and is competitive - meaning 1:31s at Mid-Ohio and that is pretty quick! (Atlantic poles are 20's - a Miata is a 1:47 and CART 1:05 without the chicane)
[url]http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/records/laprecords.html[/url]
Fast and cheap is a Formula Ford (1:30) but open wheels don't get in to lapping days.
A real cheap car that is raceable and has fenders is a Spec Racer Ford. FI, no slicks and pump gas. 1:43s
No maintenance needed ever and bulletproof from top to bottom.
Great fun to drive. Need to tow it - 1600#
| Jaxx | 12-27-2001 06:54 PM |
this guy [URL=http://www.birkindealer.com/](link)[/URL] is based out of boise .. the cars are very cool.. ~16k for a rolling chassie ...
| randy zimmer | 12-27-2001 07:10 PM |
cateram
sorry - not F but E production legal.
| WRXhauls | 12-27-2001 07:32 PM |
[url]http://www.superformance.com/s1_more.asp[/url]
| jimb | 12-27-2001 11:02 PM |
I'd still rather build my own chassis. Nothing against the chassis builders, but, I'd trust my own work over someone elses any day.. :)
jb
jb
| David S. Wallens | 12-28-2001 01:15 AM |
One of our editors just built a Factory Five spec racer, and so far, so good. The car ran its first race last month, and with the mandated 2.73:1 final drive, it pulled 135mph in third gear. The car was also easy to race, as he drove it to the track on race tires. (It's street legal, which is nice.) Once at the track, he only had to add fuel and numbers. I believe he was the only spec roadster there, but he was able to run with most of the fast stuff on slicks, including Trans-Am cars, Winston West stock cars and the like. He was on DOT race tires that already had gone through a few test days.
A full build-up will be in the magazine soon. Personally, I'd build one just to hear that small-block Ford.
David S. Wallens, managing ed
Grassroots Motorsports
[url]www.grassrootsmotorsports.com[/url]
A full build-up will be in the magazine soon. Personally, I'd build one just to hear that small-block Ford.
David S. Wallens, managing ed
Grassroots Motorsports
[url]www.grassrootsmotorsports.com[/url]
| Chunky_Chicken | 12-28-2001 02:06 AM |
Bike Engined Cars can be made very reliable as long as you aren't trying to squeeze torque out of them to compensate for an overweight chassis.
Check out these sites (Penn State is a good one for images).
[url]http://www.sae.org/students/schools.htm[/url]
-Pete
For the record. Thanks to some very generous ALMS team, our team will be pairing a CF skinned -Al honey comb monocoque with a SDS controlled Yamaha R6 power plant. From driving our 2001 car I can assure you 70hp (thats running a 20mm restrictor on the R6) is all a 210kg car needs to scare the crap out of anyone. And it doesn't take much to change the direction of 210kg either. Light weight is the best way to keep powerplant cost down (mind you, light weight chassis' get expensive too). Before donations we budgeted our 2002 car at $56,000CAD thats about $35,000USD. Loose the CF and you can scratch $12k off that.
Check out these sites (Penn State is a good one for images).
[url]http://www.sae.org/students/schools.htm[/url]
-Pete
For the record. Thanks to some very generous ALMS team, our team will be pairing a CF skinned -Al honey comb monocoque with a SDS controlled Yamaha R6 power plant. From driving our 2001 car I can assure you 70hp (thats running a 20mm restrictor on the R6) is all a 210kg car needs to scare the crap out of anyone. And it doesn't take much to change the direction of 210kg either. Light weight is the best way to keep powerplant cost down (mind you, light weight chassis' get expensive too). Before donations we budgeted our 2002 car at $56,000CAD thats about $35,000USD. Loose the CF and you can scratch $12k off that.
| bbbradley | 12-28-2001 08:28 AM |
Here is (to me) an informative thread on some of these cars...
[url]http://www.miataforum.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=003348[/url]
I personally love the looks of the 7, my GF on the other hand is not too keen on it. I saw one on the streets in the suburban Boston area last summer, it looked great. I would love to build one someday when I have more time.
/bill
[url]http://www.miataforum.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=003348[/url]
I personally love the looks of the 7, my GF on the other hand is not too keen on it. I saw one on the streets in the suburban Boston area last summer, it looked great. I would love to build one someday when I have more time.
/bill
| JamesC | 12-28-2001 08:43 AM |
Ok Mr. JohnFelstead :p
I guess I'll have to agree to - it remains to be seen. There are a lot of possibilities even if the gearbox were a weakpoint. As far as I've seen little thought has been given the 'box from most BEC racer types but there are certainly upgrades available. Cryogenically treating the sets, good solid forged pieces, etc. I don't know a thing about drag racing but know that drag bikes have a pretty extensive upgrade path in that regard.
My concern is less for reliability and more for daily drivability. Luckily my commute doesn't involve stop and go traffic but I do remember how "fun" that is on bikes (of which we still own 3). I don't look forward to allowing 5 car lengths of space ahead so that upon acceleration you don't overrun - only to have someone jump into the lane in front of you causing even worse unsettling :)
I'm hoping for ~400kg "fighting weight" with the ability to still attach the comforts of home. To me a BEC might be the best way to go. I still have a lot of test driving to do...
BTW Sauginius,
I have all of Alamo's literature on both paths from Westfield (BEC and CE). Email me a fax # and I'll fax it out to you.
JamesC
[email][email protected][/email]
I guess I'll have to agree to - it remains to be seen. There are a lot of possibilities even if the gearbox were a weakpoint. As far as I've seen little thought has been given the 'box from most BEC racer types but there are certainly upgrades available. Cryogenically treating the sets, good solid forged pieces, etc. I don't know a thing about drag racing but know that drag bikes have a pretty extensive upgrade path in that regard.
My concern is less for reliability and more for daily drivability. Luckily my commute doesn't involve stop and go traffic but I do remember how "fun" that is on bikes (of which we still own 3). I don't look forward to allowing 5 car lengths of space ahead so that upon acceleration you don't overrun - only to have someone jump into the lane in front of you causing even worse unsettling :)
I'm hoping for ~400kg "fighting weight" with the ability to still attach the comforts of home. To me a BEC might be the best way to go. I still have a lot of test driving to do...
BTW Sauginius,
I have all of Alamo's literature on both paths from Westfield (BEC and CE). Email me a fax # and I'll fax it out to you.
JamesC
[email][email protected][/email]
| direwlf | 12-28-2001 10:07 AM |
For cobra kit cars, if anyone is interested, there is a very reputable mustang tuner here in calgary that sells them, either as kits or ready to run models. These are the factory five kits, available with all kinds of different driveline options. Check out [url]http://www.wmsracing.com[/url] and click on WMS Cobra
| JamesC | 12-31-2001 12:25 PM |
Jon,
I was just contacted by a new dealer for [URL=http://www.fishersportscars.co.uk/]Fisher Fury[/URL] Sportscars who is setting up their imports into the US. He knew I was looking at Hayabusa powered cars and pointed me towards their LHD line.
It seems to me to be a bit more of what you were looking for?
[IMG]http://www.fishersportscars.co.uk/gall4.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.fishersportscars.co.uk/g15.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.fishersportscars.co.uk/15.gif[/IMG]
His contact details are:
Chet Galek
290 Doverchester Road
Randolph, NJ 07869
(973) 952-7360 (Work #)
[email][email protected][/email]
JamesC
I was just contacted by a new dealer for [URL=http://www.fishersportscars.co.uk/]Fisher Fury[/URL] Sportscars who is setting up their imports into the US. He knew I was looking at Hayabusa powered cars and pointed me towards their LHD line.
It seems to me to be a bit more of what you were looking for?
[IMG]http://www.fishersportscars.co.uk/gall4.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.fishersportscars.co.uk/g15.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.fishersportscars.co.uk/15.gif[/IMG]
His contact details are:
Chet Galek
290 Doverchester Road
Randolph, NJ 07869
(973) 952-7360 (Work #)
[email][email protected][/email]
JamesC
| Jon Bogert | 12-31-2001 01:06 PM |
James, it seems Fisher is "spreading it around" :D
There's a guy in florida [url]www.sportsracingcars.com[/url] who claims on his site: "English Specialty Sportscars have been appointed [I]sole importers[/I] of the Fury in the United States and Canada and are now building this superb car in Fort Pierce, Florida." :lol:
I'll drop Chet a line...
There's a guy in florida [url]www.sportsracingcars.com[/url] who claims on his site: "English Specialty Sportscars have been appointed [I]sole importers[/I] of the Fury in the United States and Canada and are now building this superb car in Fort Pierce, Florida." :lol:
I'll drop Chet a line...
| Jay_UK | 01-01-2002 11:11 AM |
For a track day car its gotta be:
[IMG]http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/gtr/pics/gtr26.jpg[/IMG]
:D
Sligtly out of your price range though... unless u spread it over a few years...
[url]www.ultimasports.co.uk[/url]
They are now supplying to the USA I believe.
J.
[IMG]http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/gtr/pics/gtr26.jpg[/IMG]
:D
Sligtly out of your price range though... unless u spread it over a few years...
[url]www.ultimasports.co.uk[/url]
They are now supplying to the USA I believe.
J.
| Jon Bogert | 01-01-2002 09:04 PM |
One additional possibility...
[IMG]http://www.lanciastratos.freeserve.co.uk/images/Bob1.jpg[/IMG]
About $15k for the kit. Needs a Lancia, Alfa or Ferrari (!) drivetrain.
[IMG]http://www.lanciastratos.freeserve.co.uk/images/Bob1.jpg[/IMG]
About $15k for the kit. Needs a Lancia, Alfa or Ferrari (!) drivetrain.
| Lurker | 01-02-2002 06:38 AM |
OMG, that Stratos is just beautiful! Is that a kit? If so, who makes it? Info, please! :eek:
| bbbradley | 01-02-2002 07:04 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]One additional possibility...
About $15k for the kit. Needs a Lancia, Alfa or Ferrari (!) drivetrain. [/B][/QUOTE]
Are all those lights really needed? :D
/bill
[B]One additional possibility...
About $15k for the kit. Needs a Lancia, Alfa or Ferrari (!) drivetrain. [/B][/QUOTE]
Are all those lights really needed? :D
/bill
| Jon Bogert | 01-02-2002 10:26 AM |
The Stratos kit is made by Hawk in U.K. ([url]http://www.hawkcars.co.uk/hf/index.html[/url]) and imported by none other than Aerosim Research ([url]http://www.aerosim-research.com/stratos/stratos.html[/url]) which you may know from their Impreza body kits. Small world.
The car in the picture has the Group 4 trim package which includes fender flares, spoilers and light pod. I actually prefer the classic Stradale version:
[IMG]http://www.lanciastratos.freeserve.co.uk/images/DonBunn3.jpg[/IMG]
The car in the picture has the Group 4 trim package which includes fender flares, spoilers and light pod. I actually prefer the classic Stradale version:
[IMG]http://www.lanciastratos.freeserve.co.uk/images/DonBunn3.jpg[/IMG]
| JamesC | 01-02-2002 02:54 PM |
WOW!. That looks great. Looks like a great bunch of people on the replica club too!
I only wish there were provisions for something simpler as a power plant. The Beta or Ferrari lumps are sexy and probably sound amazing but not exactly what I'd want to have to deal with day to day.
Looks like a great option though.
BTW, if you end up going BEC I'm looking seriously at the following: [URL=http://www.kliktronic.co.uk/]Klinktronic[/URL] which allows electronic hand control of sequential shifting. Look closely at their page and you'll see that they offer an integrated ignition interrupt from [URL=http://www.techtronics.co.uk/]Techtonics[/URL] as well. They have specifically addressed Bike Engined Cars in several places on the page and with a few photos. I've seen mention of them several times on the BEC list with quite a few in competetion. One guy in a Fury...
Here is the actuator:
[IMG]http://www.kliktronic.co.uk/snell2.jpg[/IMG]
And the buttons on the wheel:
[IMG]http://www.kliktronic.co.uk/Formula2.jpg[/IMG]
I only wish there were provisions for something simpler as a power plant. The Beta or Ferrari lumps are sexy and probably sound amazing but not exactly what I'd want to have to deal with day to day.
Looks like a great option though.
BTW, if you end up going BEC I'm looking seriously at the following: [URL=http://www.kliktronic.co.uk/]Klinktronic[/URL] which allows electronic hand control of sequential shifting. Look closely at their page and you'll see that they offer an integrated ignition interrupt from [URL=http://www.techtronics.co.uk/]Techtonics[/URL] as well. They have specifically addressed Bike Engined Cars in several places on the page and with a few photos. I've seen mention of them several times on the BEC list with quite a few in competetion. One guy in a Fury...
Here is the actuator:
[IMG]http://www.kliktronic.co.uk/snell2.jpg[/IMG]
And the buttons on the wheel:
[IMG]http://www.kliktronic.co.uk/Formula2.jpg[/IMG]
| toerag | 01-03-2002 06:57 AM |
How about a mallock? Pukka racing car, cheap and easy to run, accepts pretty much any engines under 2.4 litres. Westfields will take a rover V8 if you want them to:D
check out [url]www.delamare.gg[/url] for more info, go to the new GMCC site to see the times that these machines put down in our local 1/4 mile (compare them to the bike times)
check out [url]www.delamare.gg[/url] for more info, go to the new GMCC site to see the times that these machines put down in our local 1/4 mile (compare them to the bike times)
| Jon Bogert | 04-16-2002 05:15 PM |
The Fury Has Landed!
This is my driveway, just two hours ago:
[IMG]http://www.furyous.org/images/furyincrate2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.furyous.org/images/furyincrate.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.furyous.org/images/furyincrate2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.furyous.org/images/furyincrate.jpg[/IMG]
| Marquis | 04-17-2002 06:34 AM |
Very nice indeed, Jon. Keep us updated, with PLENTY of pictures!
| Jon Bogert | 05-16-2002 01:47 PM |
[QUOTE]Keep us updated[/QUOTE]
Well, if you insist...
I just got the drivetrain today--a 10,000 mile S2000 engine and 6-speed gearbox. It seems the supply/demand for S2000 motors is very favorable. The motors last forever so there's no demand for replacements, and the crazy rich kids whose daddies buy them S2000s total the cars all the time. :D
Compared to the cost of a tuned 4AGE and Caterham six-speed, I figure I saved about 50%--and it will run on pump gas and pass emissions.
Yo, I gots mad VTEC, Yo! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I plugged the specs into Cartest and the results are pretty appealing:
[IMG]http://www.furyous.org/images/cartestfury.gif[/IMG]
Well, if you insist...
I just got the drivetrain today--a 10,000 mile S2000 engine and 6-speed gearbox. It seems the supply/demand for S2000 motors is very favorable. The motors last forever so there's no demand for replacements, and the crazy rich kids whose daddies buy them S2000s total the cars all the time. :D
Compared to the cost of a tuned 4AGE and Caterham six-speed, I figure I saved about 50%--and it will run on pump gas and pass emissions.
Yo, I gots mad VTEC, Yo! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I plugged the specs into Cartest and the results are pretty appealing:
[IMG]http://www.furyous.org/images/cartestfury.gif[/IMG]
| Marquis | 05-16-2002 01:52 PM |
Very cool choice of powerplant, and it helps that it's relatively cheap. Good numbers on the Cartest, too.
Oh, and don't forget the Type-R sticker when you're done with the car... :lol:
Oh, and don't forget the Type-R sticker when you're done with the car... :lol:
| ColinL | 05-16-2002 02:20 PM |
jon, congrats that looks like great stuff. are you planning to do anything to the S2000 mill? dry sump?
| Jon Bogert | 05-16-2002 02:30 PM |
The oil pan is stepped to clear a crossmember, so there are 2" or so I could remove easily. There is a dry sump kit available I think, but I'm sure it costs many Yen.
The overall height of the engine from cam cover to oil pan is just over 26". It will be very close to the hood so we may need a bit of a bulge.
The main problem is the bellhousing, which is wider than the Sierra box the chassis was designed around. Since power to weight ratio is less of an issue :D we may just weld a big ol' horseshoe of steel plate up there and cut away all the delicate perfectly triangulated tubes. :lol:
The overall height of the engine from cam cover to oil pan is just over 26". It will be very close to the hood so we may need a bit of a bulge.
The main problem is the bellhousing, which is wider than the Sierra box the chassis was designed around. Since power to weight ratio is less of an issue :D we may just weld a big ol' horseshoe of steel plate up there and cut away all the delicate perfectly triangulated tubes. :lol:
| WRSport | 05-16-2002 06:35 PM |
Nice little project there Jon.
| johnfelstead | 05-16-2002 07:03 PM |
Well, since this started i have killed my westie. :( Bollox
Anyway, the Atom engine is now finished and dynoed. It's using 8 injectors, water injection, supercharged and chargecooled. 285BHP from 1.8 litres of lightweight K series aint to bad.
The sequencial 6 speed box is now mated up to the engine, now it's a case of getting it all installed in the Atom. We have gone for a nice trick dataloging/dash system that is integral to the steering wheel, looks the dogs bollox.
The plan is to have it ready for the nurburgring trip we have aranged for september and go break the production car lap record. :eek::D We'll see about that last one. :D
Two mates are building the first customer Westfield XTR2 available and i will be poping down every so often to check on progress with that too. Both guys are Scooby drivers too, one has a P1 the other had one of the fastest STi's in the UK. :D
Check their web site. [url]http://www.xtr2.net/[/url]
[IMG]http://yellowmelon.dnsalias.com/xtr2/images/site/xtr2_orange.jpeg[/IMG]
Anyway, the Atom engine is now finished and dynoed. It's using 8 injectors, water injection, supercharged and chargecooled. 285BHP from 1.8 litres of lightweight K series aint to bad.
The sequencial 6 speed box is now mated up to the engine, now it's a case of getting it all installed in the Atom. We have gone for a nice trick dataloging/dash system that is integral to the steering wheel, looks the dogs bollox.
The plan is to have it ready for the nurburgring trip we have aranged for september and go break the production car lap record. :eek::D We'll see about that last one. :D
Two mates are building the first customer Westfield XTR2 available and i will be poping down every so often to check on progress with that too. Both guys are Scooby drivers too, one has a P1 the other had one of the fastest STi's in the UK. :D
Check their web site. [url]http://www.xtr2.net/[/url]
[IMG]http://yellowmelon.dnsalias.com/xtr2/images/site/xtr2_orange.jpeg[/IMG]
| Jon Bogert | 05-16-2002 11:26 PM |
OK, your's is bigger. :(
| WRSport | 05-17-2002 01:38 AM |
I want to go to the nurb in september :(
hmmmm, Makes me want to book a flight, and one bad ass rental car :lol:
hmmmm, Makes me want to book a flight, and one bad ass rental car :lol:
| johnfelstead | 05-17-2002 07:48 PM |
Well, if you get your ass there in september i promise you a VERY fast lap.
| Jon Bogert | 05-17-2002 10:38 PM |
I know it's not a flat-4, but I think it'll get the job done...
[IMG]http://www.furyous.org/images/jonfury_f20c1sm.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.furyous.org/images/jonfury_f20c1sm.jpg[/IMG]
| johnfelstead | 05-18-2002 02:21 AM |
top choice Jon, thats should be one impresive piece of kit when it's finished.
| Kostamojen | 05-18-2002 02:30 AM |
There is a '79 Lotus Elite for sale in the local classifieds for $3000 that had me thinking "track car" :)
| the Dabbler | 05-21-2002 08:48 PM |
Not to shift focus away from those [i]very[/i] cool Brit cars...
But, I too, was toying with the idea of a Factory Five spec racer. The fact that it's [i]spec[/i] series legal appeals to me. And the price is shockingly low, even if you have to buy the thing fully or partially assembled.
Anyone know of a downside to these things? From all accounts, kit quality is excellent, and performance is good.
But, I too, was toying with the idea of a Factory Five spec racer. The fact that it's [i]spec[/i] series legal appeals to me. And the price is shockingly low, even if you have to buy the thing fully or partially assembled.
Anyone know of a downside to these things? From all accounts, kit quality is excellent, and performance is good.
| Jon Bogert | 05-21-2002 10:32 PM |
I hung around the Factory Five booth at Carlisle last weekend. Very good stuff. They had a cutaway chassis which showed the paneling and suspension to good effect. Their aluminum paneling was very nice. The IRS option with coilovers was very trick--much better than the Mustang rear axle.
Also, their Daytona Coupe is stunning--it has so much more presence than the Cobra.
Also, their Daytona Coupe is stunning--it has so much more presence than the Cobra.
| Patrick Olsen | 05-21-2002 11:17 PM |
Very cool, Jon, and those performance numbers from Cartest look damn impressive. Should be one helluva fun car once it's complete. What are you looking at for a time line?
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
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