| gargleblaster | 01-20-2005 12:38 AM |
Ferrari abandon F1 breakaway plan
� Ferrari have broken ranks with the teams planning a breakaway series and committed to Formula One until 2012.
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4188525.stm[/url]
Looks like the Bernie/Max show continues on for the forseeable future... :rolleyes: | | Burnall4 | 01-20-2005 12:55 AM |
damn politics :furious:
Don't get me started. | | Dr. WOT | 01-20-2005 11:22 AM |
I have mixed feelings about this. I knew the breakaway was never really going to happen, but and extra $500 mil over 3 years still sounds a little stingy. Considering that Bernie basically pockets his share, I'd rather see alot more of that money going to the teams. That said, stability is a good thing, and F1 certainly needs some of that right now. | | gtguy | 01-20-2005 12:38 PM |
This is a funny (because it's so predictable) editorial from Planet F1:
<<Ferrari Renege on the GPWC
The GPWC is D.E.A.D. dead. Ferrari have jumped ship and signed a deal with Bernie Ecclestone that gives them the lion�s share of the money from the new Concorde Agreement.
It is a staggering blow to any chance of serious opposition to Formula 1 and yet again the diminutive septagenarian Brit has manoeuvred himself out of a tight position.
Ferrari chief Luca Montezemolo�s actions are surprising, given that Ferrari are a fully paid-up member of the GPWC and were behind the rival Championship�s plans. Their decision to go it alone will infuriate the rest of the F1 teams involved. Unless Montezemolo has been negotiating for ALL of the other teams, (and it wouldn't appear so) it looks like they only went along for the ride with the GPWC to force Bernie�s hand to pay Ferrari more money.
Just as they have infuriated other F1 teams by their actions in refusing to cut testing save money � and they can, because they earn the most from the sport � so this action will anger those who were trying to lever as much cash as possible from Ecclestone and safeguard their own futures, namely Paul Stoddart and Eddie Jordan.
A few weeks ago Montezemolo said that the teams would not contemplate receiving less than 80% of total revenues from the sport, yet this looks like a classic cut and run.
It�s not surprising that Ferrari feel isolated, as Jean Todt articulated earlier in the week. "From one point of view Ferrari always has been [isolated] but this is not a problem.�
No, clearly not. And they've never been more isolated than they are right now.
The FIA�s warm praise of their actions will only reinforce the view of some, that they are a Ferrari friendly organisation. Detractors point out that Ross Brawn is a long-time drinking buddy of FIA technical delegate Charlie Whiting and the Scuderia are the only team that can regularly get equipment banned on other cars with a single protest.
It will be interesting to see what the other GPWC teams' next moves are; but the Championship that has Ferrari is the Championship that will succeed. Ferrari are F1. And any student of economics would say that if you're the market leader (by a mile) you have to exploit that situation. F1 isn't known as the Piranha Club for nothing and what the Italian marque is doing is maximising its competitive edge - the Scuderia's awesome marketability.
The only problem is that Ferrari have to race against someone. Because they show very little interest in racing against themselves.
Andrew Davies>>
What cracks me up about this is that people somehow think that teams are supposed to be based on altruism, I guess. Sure, in the good old days, F1 was sportsmanship and gentlemanly deeds, but those days are long gone. Today, it's big business, for better or worse, and Ferrari, for a lot of people, IS Formula One.
They're also the team that people love to hate. Think about how dull baseball would be without the Yankees, then multiply that by three to get how empty F1 would be without Ferrari. The other teams would love to have that kind of clout. Is it wrong of Ferrari to leverage against that clout? People who can't wield that kind of clout would love to be able to. But they would also be bothered by those who can. That's human nature.
Ecclestone, as the good Dr. pointed out, is happy because his golden goose is intact for years to come, so he can go back to chasing tall supermodels, while secure in the knowledge that his bank account will be full, and everybody's happy...except the other teams, and those UK commentators, who will be fine once McLaren wins a race or two.
Kevin |
Ferrari, at least publicly (Jean Todt and the sort) have been pushing for *other* teams to recieve a larger share of TV revenue. IMHO, Ferrari must have known what they were doing, they're not a team to be pushed around by anyone. =) Of course we're rarely ever told the financial details of F1... | | hillman | 01-20-2005 02:23 PM |
[quote]
What cracks me up about this is that people somehow think that teams are supposed to be based on altruism, I guess.
[/quote]
I don't think that's his point. He seems surprised that
Ferrari apparently has no regard for the health of the other teams, and are
only looking out for themselves. As he notes, they do need someone to race against. Ferrari's current domination
is bad enough, from a spectator-interest standpoint. Imagine if they're racing against even
weaker teams. | | artkevin | 01-20-2005 02:32 PM |
I don't blame Ferrari for doing what seems best for them but it does get frustrating that they don't seem to care about ANY of the other teams. If Williams and Mclaren leave what is F1 really? BAR and Renault are good teams but they don't have the history of the other two. You need to have history to prove how good you are. If Ferrari beats Sauber, Redbull F1 and Midland F1 who really cares? It is expected. But when they beat Frank and Ron everyone knows it is killing both of them inside to loe to the Scuderia.
Kevin | | BriDrive | 01-20-2005 04:33 PM |
Hmmmmm......I dunno what to think about this one.
Seems like episode 89 of a really bad soap-opera anyhow.
There's never really enough of ALL the details to make heads or tails out of announcements like this one.
You know.........if Ferrari ends up not finding anyone left to race....they could always return to a factory / Scuderia Ferrari effort in LMP's or FIA GTS or FIA GT........
It's time anyway..................
Brian | | asquaredrex | 01-20-2005 04:47 PM |
"Hurray! We're going to be rich... um... richer!"
[IMG]http://imgs.idnes.cz/formule/A010409_MAH_SCHUMACH_V.JPG[/IMG] | | gtguy | 01-20-2005 04:47 PM |
[QUOTE=hillman]I don't think that's his point. He seems surprised that
Ferrari apparently has no regard for the health of the other teams, and are
only looking out for themselves. As he notes, they do need someone to race against. Ferrari's current domination
is bad enough, from a spectator-interest standpoint. Imagine if they're racing against even
weaker teams.[/QUOTE]
I know, hence my altruism comment. I mean, does any other team [I]really [/I] care about the health of other teams? That testing limitation thing is a good example. The only reason anyone is agreeing to it is not for the good of the sport, but because the other teams are agreeing to it (except Ferrari, and BAR is now wavering), sort of a mutual non-aggression pact. Expect others to follow, then they'll all blame Ferrari, as usual.
The teams want to win races, championships, sponsors, and money, and will run over their mothers to do it...anything within the rules to assist that goal. Ferrari does need someone to race against, indeed. But it isn't their fault that Williams and McLaren haven't stepped up to the plate, except on the rare occasion (Spa, where Raikkonen was saved by a late-race caution, as Schumacher's B'stones were starting to come in, and Brazil, where Barrichello couldn't go fast enough, and Montoya was driving out of his mind).
I guess that's why the British commentators are ultimately so vexing. They weren't uttering a peep when Williams was dominating, or when McLaren had their string of titles behind Hakkinen. Not a word about "oh, the spectators are leaving," or "those guys are cheating." But now that Ferrari is doing it, it's a different story. Every sport needs someone to hate, and between Todt, Schumacher and Ferrari itself, people have plenty of ammunition. :lol:
If the teams were legitimately concerned about the health of the other teams, cost-cutting measures wouldn't be so hard to implement, and the other teams would implement a technology-sharing program for Jordan and Minardi, to create two more healthy, reasonably competitive teams. Further, they would make this tech available to them at prices that are affordable by those enterprises. Then, I'd start thinking that the teams are serious about the good health of the other teams (and I really think that would be a cool thing, btw). Further, they would topple the travel money scheme. As it is now, the rich get richer because the best teams also get the most travel money, while the Jordans and Minardis are left holding empty bags. Help those teams get to races, help the privateers, who fill the grid out, do more than be pack fodder.
Further, a spec tire would dramatically reduce testing time, because everybody has the same tire. A significant portion of F1 testing is tire compound-related.
To me, those would be real steps in making F1 the gentlemanly, look-out-for-the-other-guy sport that people seem surprised that Ferrari doesn't seem all that interested in.
Kevin | | artkevin | 01-20-2005 05:20 PM |
[QUOTE=gtguy]Further, a spec tire would dramatically reduce testing time, because everybody has the same tire. A significant portion of F1 testing is tire compound-related.
[/QUOTE]
Yes. I think a lot of the domination comes from the tire war. I know a lot of people say a spec anything should never be in F1 but I can't help but think that spec tires and ecu could only help the sport. I hate when you see a cloud come over the starting grid and just know that all of the Michelin shod cars are screwed before the race even starts.
I love tech to the fullest and I know F1 is an engineering exercise as much as a sport but how much does Ferrari's enigine managment computer or Michelin's newest ultra soft compound really improve the sport or filter down to the comsumer/watcher? Then again I just read an article about the new M5 and its supercomputer running its V10 so I guess I could be wrong. | | BriDrive | 01-20-2005 05:44 PM |
Hey...come on now.....you too can enjoy magnetti morelli injection with your Bosch controllers in your very own 360 /430 / Enzo / Scaglietti.................. :lol:
I like the spec tire............
I don't agree on proposed spec ecu's........
I do like 2.4 V8 .......
The nature of F1 is: NO matter WHAT the rules are...we will test, spend banks full of money, and loophole squeeze every last ounce of performance from any set of parameter/variables/rules.
BUT, the more spec pieces you add, the less F1 you have and the More it starts to look like formula renault, or formula ford, or formula palmer audi, or........................ | | artkevin | 01-20-2005 06:32 PM |
Agreed. I think ecu will cut down on the amount of complaining tat Renault is using a launch control or Ferrari are running low end traction control. The tire thing just seems like a way to equalise he teams in a very cheap controlled way. | | On Track Productions | 01-20-2005 11:17 PM |
I am going to disagree with an asumption regarding Ferrari is F1. :)
Yes they are the oldest team, but they have rarely been the dominant team, there has always been giants in their time which have dominated such as Lotus (RIP), Williams and McLaren, Ferrari are curently the dominants with a large fan base but dont let that fool you into thinking the sport wouldnt survive and prosper without them.
F1 has always been about the drivers and those drivers driving in what is percieved to be the pinacle of the sport putting on a show that is spectacular, people are pasionate about the exploits of the Senna's, Clarke's, Stewarts, Villenueve's. Without the high profile drivers the sport has nothing for the vast majority of fans who watch and therefor generate the income, you just have to look at the impact Alonso has had in Spain to realise just how important the top drivers are.
Ferrari is diferent to the rest of the teams, epsecially in Italy, but if they found themselves alone in a sport, that sport will die very quickly, without the drivers to drive the interest or the competition between these drivers, no one will watch and the financial house of cards will collapse. If you have a structure where teams cant survive finacially you are in serious trouble, these teams will shut down or go elsewhere, you cant run a 600 employee business on fresh air, the numbers have to add up.
This could get very messy if Ferrari have done a deal that gives them more than the other teams in terms of financial or political capital. | | gargleblaster | 01-21-2005 01:40 AM |
[QUOTE=On Track Productions]F1 has always been about the drivers and those drivers driving in what is percieved to be the pinacle of the sport putting on a show that is spectacular, people are pasionate about the exploits of the Senna's, Clarke's, Stewarts, Villenueve's. [/QUOTE]Yes, and unfortunately, F1 isn't much of a spectacle beyond the flash and celebrity of the drivers anymore. People complained about F1 being boring a few years ago when the main question to be answered before each race was whether Hakkinen or Schumacher would win. Fast forward 3 years and the most exciting highlights of the season are watching Ferrari destroy the field while fighting back from some rare setback.
Beyond any kind of rabid devotion to the driver that hails from your country, I frankly don't see much to be excited about in F1 these days. When 80% of the passing in a race is decided on pit stop execution and tire performance, there's simply not much to hold interest. The sport has become too much chess and not enough battle. I think until this changes, the teams will continue to battle each other over slices of an ever-diminishing pie.
We can only hope that Honda's purchase of BAR and Richards' resulting departure don't set JB too far back from his remarkable gains last season. I think JPM and KR will be too busy getting out of the way of each other's egos to do much good, and Renault seem to be listing. A nice surprise would be to see Weber come alive in the Williams, but unless the chassis has dramatically improved it will continue to be the limiting factor there...
Now, where the hell did I put those [i]Lap of the Gods[/i] tapes? ;) | | finnRex | 01-21-2005 08:03 AM |
Hmmm, an extra $500M for the next three years for Ferrari. That's JUST GREAT. Why shouldn't they get some more money. Dominate some more. It gets depressing to see the same results(MS wins), with the occasional RB win, and the even rarer "non-Ferrari driver" wins.
I'd like to see more competition. I understand that there's no such thing as keeping things fair, but it would be nice to see a more even playing field. Hats off to Ferrari though for doing a damn good job at winning...
Mika | | artkevin | 01-21-2005 09:21 AM |
In the last couple of years I have seen some fantastic races. Germany 04, Brazil 03-04, Monaco 03-04, Japan 03-04, Spa 04, USA 04. If you are only looking at P1 then yes, a lot of those races are boring. If you see the battles for 4th or 12th or soon on there are fantastic battles that are highly worth watching.
Kevin | | BriDrive | 01-21-2005 09:53 AM |
We don't know all the details...................
I will bet however....the new deal / dollars are specified for distribution based on performance...........SO.................McLaren: you win, you get paid mo money, Jordan: you win, you get paid mo money...etc etc etc................
The real stink, as we all have known....is that Eccelstone et al have not been equitably "sharing the wealth"....that was the real catalyst for the threat (GPWC)...."why pay Bernie...we are the ones putting the money in, we should get it out...that's ONE of the major reasons we do this....sustainability"..........
I think Eccelstone is slowly coming around to the realization that some "give" is essential as F1 pushes closer to 2008 AND as FIA interdiction(read rules/safety/cost) now and thru 2005,2006 have threatened to cause a collapse.
BriDrive | | gtguy | 01-21-2005 12:47 PM |
I still think that F1 would be significantly poorer without Ferrari. Would it survive? Absolutely. Would it thrive? I'd bet you'd see significantly fewer spectators at the USGP, certainly. But for sure, F1 would do alright.
But part of why everyone is so up in arms about Ferrari's move speaks volumes about that team's value to the sport, be it under Ecclestone or the GPWC.
Kevin | | parker/slc/gc8fan | 01-21-2005 07:03 PM |
[QUOTE=asquaredrex]"Hurray! We're going to be rich... um... richer!"
[IMG]http://imgs.idnes.cz/formule/A010409_MAH_SCHUMACH_V.JPG[/IMG][/QUOTE]
how can it be anyhting but. shme on bernie ecclestone for what he has done to the purest form of motorsport left. :furious: | | finnRex | 01-22-2005 07:00 PM |
[QUOTE=artkevin]In the last couple of years I have seen some fantastic races. Germany 04, Brazil 03-04, Monaco 03-04, Japan 03-04, Spa 04, USA 04. If you are only looking at P1 then yes, a lot of those races are boring. If you see the battles for 4th or 12th or soon on there are fantastic battles that are highly worth watching.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
You are right that the battles for the "best of the rest" are pretty decent, but when's the last time you've seen a good battle for 1st. Not just one race, but for throughout the season? Last I remember it was 2002 when Kimi put the fight to Michael, and the driver's championship went down to the last race(Suzaka). Before that, it was in '99, when Hakkinen actually beat MS. It's just been a downer to not see a fight at the front of the pack. You know dang well that the crowds would be there every other weekend if someone would threaten Michael's throne of domination. Either rooting for him, or rooting for the underdog. THAT'S what I miss:(. But I still LOVE the way those beasts sound:)
Mika | | artkevin | 01-22-2005 10:00 PM |
Mika,
I think you mena 03 for the fight for the title.
I love that season. If it wasn't for JPM getting screwed at the USGP (my opinion) for causing Rubens even though Rubhino had said that he had a gear box problem in warm up and JPM had little to do with it and Heinz Herald holding JPM up while being lapped at Monza (I digress), 03 would have a been a 3 way fight into the final round in Japan between MS, Kimi and JPM. How fantastic is that? The constructor's title was open until the second to last round too. | | finnRex | 01-23-2005 10:13 PM |
My bad, that Florida sun is still affecting me;) I would have loved to see a 3 way fight for the championship. I am hoping that the Silver Arrow crew will get their junk together, because they have 2 world championship caliber drivers on their crew in Kimi and JPM. It should be interesting to see how well they fair off against each other, and against the "red machine". Naturally though, I would like to see my boy Kimi on top. But he's definitely got his work cut out for him. Right now I am hoping that MB works on their reliability first, power next.
Here's some food for thought. I think either in '06 or '07, MS's contract is up, and I believe a few other important people in the Ferrari crew(Jean Todt, maybe, I can't remember). It would be interesting to see if Ferrari were to sweep up Kimi from MB. There's a slight chance too, because I think Todt has given Kimi some praise regarding his driving ability. Kimi in a Ferrari would be different, but awesome:) Then again, Ron Dennis is not too likely to give Ferrari a quality driver like KR.
Mika(hoping '05 season is MUCH more competitive) | | artkevin | 01-23-2005 11:27 PM |
Its thought that Merc got JPM just so Ferrari couldn't get to him when Schumi's contract runs out. You are right though Mika, in 07 it could be whole sale changes at the Scuderia. Not likey but there is nothing on paper to keep in from happening. Jean Todt has even said that is Michael quit today he would see him off happliy becuase he knows that when he wants to hang up his helmet thats it. Todt knows how much MS means to Ferrari so he won't sue or put up a fight. Quite classy if you ask me.
Kevin | | finnRex | 01-24-2005 09:06 PM |
That is very classy of Todt to say that he would not even put up a fight with Michael retiring.
Here's a confession: I used to hate Michael...with a passion. He'd be a cack during some interviews, and somewhat abrasive. After reading a couple interviews in F1(magazine) and listening to others talk about him(as a character, not a driver), I have gained respect for him. The 7 time driver's champion has something to do with it too, I guess;) Not only is he a (seemingly) genuine person, but also a very thoughtful person. IIRC he gave $10M to the tsunami disaster relief fund. They had an article a few months back about the relationship that Todt and MS have. They truly are good friends, and are able to see where the other person is coming from. They definitely have a mutual respect for each other.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd like to see a few people step up to Michael's level, instead of seeing him retire. However, with all the records that he has broken, this may very well be his last season. I think he has 1 or 2 more seasons left in his tank, and then he'll call it quits(for driving at least). There was a line in his contract that said that if he wanted to retire, he would have to give Ferrari management only 1 year notice. Maybe Ron Dennis caught wind of MS wanting to retire and took JPM? Who knows...
Mika | | gargleblaster | 01-26-2005 12:46 AM |
[QUOTE=finnRex]I think either in '06 or '07, MS's contract is up, and I believe a few other important people in the Ferrari crew(Jean Todt, maybe, I can't remember). [/QUOTE]
Yes - 06 is the end year for MS, both RB's (Reubens and Ross), and JT; in essence the whole braintrust. Since JT's running the whole shop now it will be interesting to see whether he steps back from the F1 team's day-to-day operations into more of an oversight role.
So, then - who would step up to take JT's place? Perhaps a retired MS? Hmmm... And then KR comes from McLaren and perhaps JB from BAR? This could be interesting. Actually, if Sato could manage to not destroy his car I think we'll see a lot of speed from him. | | finnRex | 01-26-2005 07:45 AM |
[QUOTE=gargleblaster]
So, then - who would step up to take JT's place? Perhaps a retired MS? Hmmm... And then KR comes from McLaren and perhaps JB from BAR? This could be interesting. Actually, if Sato could manage to not destroy his car I think we'll see a lot of speed from him.[/QUOTE]
A lot of people say that Sato will be a great driver. He's arguably the best that Japan's ever sent out. I don't see him being a world champion. He's reckless and too inconsistent. Don't get me wrong, when he's fast, he's fast. But he's not fast most of the time, just rarely. His driving skills have improved, but I've always believed that if you haven't harnessed the skill of control within the first season or two of being in F1, you're not going to. With that being said, I don't see him as a great driver, but a good driver with a flash of greatness.
Mika |
