| ScoobyShak | 04-21-2003 10:56 PM |
Hood Vent Backing Plates & STS
�
�
I had done a search but found no answer. This is for a 98-01 RS.I was approached at an event that was more serious that our normal auto-x's and was told that I would be protested if the backing plate was not put in. I did put them in and still won but I want to know what the ruling actually is on these.
I see them as only to prevent rain from entering the engine bay. The guy who wanted to protest me searched all over the rule book but could find no answer. He asked if I could put them in or be protested because they really didn't fall into a ruling. I said they serve no mechanical or aerodynamic aid so I saw no apparent problem.
Say if you are to buy a used RS and someone took out the plates and you are not aware of the plates ,go to a national, win your class but you lose because of these stupid little plates?
Again what would the ruling be on those backing plates?
Dan
#35 STS
Philly MirrorKanna Champ
I see them as only to prevent rain from entering the engine bay. The guy who wanted to protest me searched all over the rule book but could find no answer. He asked if I could put them in or be protested because they really didn't fall into a ruling. I said they serve no mechanical or aerodynamic aid so I saw no apparent problem.
Say if you are to buy a used RS and someone took out the plates and you are not aware of the plates ,go to a national, win your class but you lose because of these stupid little plates?
Again what would the ruling be on those backing plates?
Dan
#35 STS
Philly MirrorKanna Champ
| Sean | 04-21-2003 11:28 PM |
OK, here's the skinny on my experience in Philly region and New England region SCCA events. People can protest you for any modification that the STS rules don't specifically allow. Therefore anyone can protest you if you remove the plates. I kept my plates in my pit box just in case someone told me to put them back on.
With that said, intakes are legal in STS and I had no problems whatsoever with the following setup because plate removal was [i]required[/i] for the intake (look at the passenger side vent):
[img]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/Scrapbook/Gallery/20011003-01-NHIS/DSC00850.sized.jpg[/img]
[URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][IMG]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/IMG] Team Updates[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index]FAQ[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=6&topic=]NESIC News[/URL] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=PostCalendar]NESIC Calendar[/url] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index]Gallery[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=6&bid=20&btitle=Random%20Static&meid=8]Birth[/URL]
With that said, intakes are legal in STS and I had no problems whatsoever with the following setup because plate removal was [i]required[/i] for the intake (look at the passenger side vent):
[img]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/Scrapbook/Gallery/20011003-01-NHIS/DSC00850.sized.jpg[/img]
[URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][IMG]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/IMG] Team Updates[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index]FAQ[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=6&topic=]NESIC News[/URL] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=PostCalendar]NESIC Calendar[/url] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index]Gallery[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=6&bid=20&btitle=Random%20Static&meid=8]Birth[/URL]
| Orion | 04-22-2003 12:03 AM |
Re: Hood Vent Backing Plates & STS
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ScoobyShak [/i]
[B]
Again what would the ruling be on those backing plates?
Dan
#35 STS
Philly MirrorKanna Champ [/B][/QUOTE]
Two things quickly come to mind:
1) hood modifications are illegal. therefore all STi scoops, intake vents such as Sean's, and removing the backing plates is illegal.
2) If it doesn't say you [i]can[/i], then you [b]can't[/b].
[B]
Again what would the ruling be on those backing plates?
Dan
#35 STS
Philly MirrorKanna Champ [/B][/QUOTE]
Two things quickly come to mind:
1) hood modifications are illegal. therefore all STi scoops, intake vents such as Sean's, and removing the backing plates is illegal.
2) If it doesn't say you [i]can[/i], then you [b]can't[/b].
| jeddy | 04-22-2003 01:01 AM |
Technically, it's against the rules to remove them. I've run with and without them for the past two years, depending on where i am. When i go to a National Tour, they go in and stay in till i get home. At our local events, almost none of the Subaru guys have them in, and we've all agreed that we don't care. I actually put a cone filter into the fender, and just leave the plates in all the time now, less hassle for me.
There's an argument that "well if they don't provide an advantage, why can't i leave them out?" The response from a potential protester is of course "well if they don't provide an advantage, why did you take them out?". ;]
The problem is that it starts the slippery slope of what's legal vs what's illegal. If the plates are ok, then does that make the above intake mod ok? If that intake is ok, does that mean i can punch a hole in the the hood of my Civic to get a CAI? No. Hood modifications are explicitly not allowed in the rules i believe, and those plates are considered by many to be part of the hood.
There's an argument that "well if they don't provide an advantage, why can't i leave them out?" The response from a potential protester is of course "well if they don't provide an advantage, why did you take them out?". ;]
The problem is that it starts the slippery slope of what's legal vs what's illegal. If the plates are ok, then does that make the above intake mod ok? If that intake is ok, does that mean i can punch a hole in the the hood of my Civic to get a CAI? No. Hood modifications are explicitly not allowed in the rules i believe, and those plates are considered by many to be part of the hood.
| Midwayman | 04-25-2003 03:26 AM |
I think you'd have to get a ruling on that little hood intake if you really got protested. IIRC its hood replacement thats specifically prohibited.
| jeddy | 04-25-2003 04:01 AM |
Actually, there is no rule against replacing hoods that i know of. The closest thing is a line about body kits in the allowed modifications section:
17.2.F Spoilers, body kits, rear wings, etc.
The etc. could be taken to mean a lot, but the spirit of the rule as i understand it is to allow aftermarket bumper covers, side skirts, wings, and the like (the typical elements of a "body kit"). So this is a case of "if it doesn't say you can, you can't". If hood was listed after rear wings, then it'd be groovy. It's not (IMHO because a replacement hood can represent a substantial weight savings), so we can't touch it.
I agree, it's a bit silly in some situations (the hood plates), and if you really want to see the rules changed, write to the guys that make the rules (the [URL=http://www.scca.org/interactive/boards.html#SEB]SEB[/URL] ).
17.2.F Spoilers, body kits, rear wings, etc.
The etc. could be taken to mean a lot, but the spirit of the rule as i understand it is to allow aftermarket bumper covers, side skirts, wings, and the like (the typical elements of a "body kit"). So this is a case of "if it doesn't say you can, you can't". If hood was listed after rear wings, then it'd be groovy. It's not (IMHO because a replacement hood can represent a substantial weight savings), so we can't touch it.
I agree, it's a bit silly in some situations (the hood plates), and if you really want to see the rules changed, write to the guys that make the rules (the [URL=http://www.scca.org/interactive/boards.html#SEB]SEB[/URL] ).
| ChrisDP | 04-25-2003 11:37 AM |
A fast STS Impreza 2.5RS almost got protested for this a few years ago at a National. It IS a protestable item.
| Midwayman | 04-25-2003 01:33 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisDP [/i]
[B]A fast STS Impreza 2.5RS almost got protested for this a few years ago at a National. It IS a protestable item. [/B][/QUOTE]
Unless there is a fasttrack update, It doesnt seem very clear from a reading of the rule. Eh. no skin off my back, Im SM anymore.
Edit: Or were you talking about just removing the plates? I was talking about the intake.
[B]A fast STS Impreza 2.5RS almost got protested for this a few years ago at a National. It IS a protestable item. [/B][/QUOTE]
Unless there is a fasttrack update, It doesnt seem very clear from a reading of the rule. Eh. no skin off my back, Im SM anymore.
Edit: Or were you talking about just removing the plates? I was talking about the intake.
| jeddy | 04-25-2003 01:46 PM |
At the 2002 San Diego National Tour, i believe Hiroo Sumida was nearly protested in STS for removing his hood plates, and reversing his hood scoop. He actually drove home to LA after the first day, and put the plates back in. Unfortunately, that prevented the protest, which could have set a precedent. It did, however, also make it apparent (at least to the STS guys there) that removing the plates was not going to be allowed.
To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official ruling anywhere about the plates or intakes that use them. Too bad really, an actual case of DQ or penalty for removing them would make this a moot point. ;]
I'll say again, for local events, who cares? For national events, we need to obey the rules, however silly. Though i will say that i didn't have to leave my hood open between runs when i had the plates out. :rolleyes:
To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official ruling anywhere about the plates or intakes that use them. Too bad really, an actual case of DQ or penalty for removing them would make this a moot point. ;]
I'll say again, for local events, who cares? For national events, we need to obey the rules, however silly. Though i will say that i didn't have to leave my hood open between runs when i had the plates out. :rolleyes:
| elgorey | 04-25-2003 03:22 PM |
Re: Re: Hood Vent Backing Plates & STS
�
�
very simple
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]2) If it doesn't say you [i]can[/i], then you [b]can't[/b]. [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]2) If it doesn't say you [i]can[/i], then you [b]can't[/b]. [/B][/QUOTE]
| zzyzx | 04-25-2003 07:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisDP [/i]
[B]A fast STS Impreza 2.5RS almost got protested for this a few years ago at a National. It IS a protestable item. [/B][/QUOTE]
Who and what year? I don't remember any such protest...
- Steve
[B]A fast STS Impreza 2.5RS almost got protested for this a few years ago at a National. It IS a protestable item. [/B][/QUOTE]
Who and what year? I don't remember any such protest...
- Steve
| bvondran | 04-26-2003 12:00 AM |
Basically, there is no provision for removing either the hood scoop plates, nor the vent plates on the hood. It doesn't really fall under the alternate hood ruling but rather removal of factory equipment, which is specifically disallowed under the Stock class rules, under which STS/STX are subject to except for the exceptions made by the STS/STX ruleset. This is the same rule that requires the car to be run with proper fender liners, etc.
In the STS/STX ruleset, there is an allowance made for removal of factory trim, but trim is specifically described as emblems and rubstrips. Trying to pass hood vent backing plates off as trim would certainly not pass a protest committee.From the Moutons site...
"17.1. AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS - STS
All Solo II Rules Stock Category allowances and the modifications that follow:"
From the stock class rules...also on the Moutons site
"13. STOCK CATEGORY
Except for modifications authorized below, Stock Category cars must be run as specified by the factory with only standard equipment as defined by these Rules. This requirement refers not just to individual parts, but to combinations thereof which which would have been ordered together on a specific car. Any other modifications or equipment will place the car in Street Prepared, Prepared or Modified Categories as appropriate
The entrant has the burden of proving that his car conforms to these Rules by his owner's manual, manufacturer's shop manual, manufacturer's catalogs or other official manufacturer's documentation, which must be in the possession of the entrant at the event if ever available to the consumer from the manufacturer."
[URL=http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/street_touring.html]SCCA Rules[/URL]
In the STS/STX ruleset, there is an allowance made for removal of factory trim, but trim is specifically described as emblems and rubstrips. Trying to pass hood vent backing plates off as trim would certainly not pass a protest committee.From the Moutons site...
"17.1. AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS - STS
All Solo II Rules Stock Category allowances and the modifications that follow:"
From the stock class rules...also on the Moutons site
"13. STOCK CATEGORY
Except for modifications authorized below, Stock Category cars must be run as specified by the factory with only standard equipment as defined by these Rules. This requirement refers not just to individual parts, but to combinations thereof which which would have been ordered together on a specific car. Any other modifications or equipment will place the car in Street Prepared, Prepared or Modified Categories as appropriate
The entrant has the burden of proving that his car conforms to these Rules by his owner's manual, manufacturer's shop manual, manufacturer's catalogs or other official manufacturer's documentation, which must be in the possession of the entrant at the event if ever available to the consumer from the manufacturer."
[URL=http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/street_touring.html]SCCA Rules[/URL]
| slim speedy | 04-26-2003 12:55 PM |
I took my backing plate off because my front strut brace would not allow the hood to close with the backing plate on. Would this be considered a reasonable defense to a protest, as the rules state that a strut brace may be used?
| jeddy | 04-26-2003 01:19 PM |
Doubtful. It'd be similar to bending out the fenders to allow 225 Falkens to fit in the rear. You can't break a rule to allow another legal modification.
What strut bar do you have that hits the scoop plate?
What strut bar do you have that hits the scoop plate?
| slim speedy | 04-26-2003 07:59 PM |
Its the one JC sports sold when they were around. I believe Larry Ganz sells it now. Well I probably won't do well enough at the national tour that anyone will bother with protesting me, so maybe I'll just leave it on anyway.
| jeddy | 04-26-2003 09:05 PM |
Ahh, that one i haven't seen on a car. I have the Whiteline forward bent one, and it comes very close to hitting the plate. It's threaded on both ends, so i can alter the angle it rides at to fit. It sits less than 1/2" above the throttle body, and it just clears the plate.
You might try fiddling with it to see if it can ride lower, mine took a couple tries to get right. Otherwise, maybe just approach some of the STS guys on the first day of the Tour (another Scooby for example, hehe) and let em know, so no one has a fit in impound. =]
You might try fiddling with it to see if it can ride lower, mine took a couple tries to get right. Otherwise, maybe just approach some of the STS guys on the first day of the Tour (another Scooby for example, hehe) and let em know, so no one has a fit in impound. =]
| bvondran | 04-27-2003 02:35 PM |
[QUOTE]Doubtful. It'd be similar to bending out the fenders to allow 225 Falkens to fit in the rear.[/QUOTE]
Remember, you can roll the fenders in STS/STX, but you can't cut, weld, otherwise alter the fenders.
"17.2. BODY WORK
Fenders may not be cut or flared but the inside lip may be rolled in order to gain tire clearance. The intention is to allow cars to maximize tire width up to the maximum allowable size. No other changes to the stock fenders or wheel wells are permitted."
From the Mouton's Site...[URL=http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/street_touring.html]Street Touring Rules[/URL]
Remember, you can roll the fenders in STS/STX, but you can't cut, weld, otherwise alter the fenders.
"17.2. BODY WORK
Fenders may not be cut or flared but the inside lip may be rolled in order to gain tire clearance. The intention is to allow cars to maximize tire width up to the maximum allowable size. No other changes to the stock fenders or wheel wells are permitted."
From the Mouton's Site...[URL=http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/street_touring.html]Street Touring Rules[/URL]
| jeddy | 04-28-2003 04:18 AM |
Right, rolling is ok, but be careful. If you bend the fender out of shape to get that extra few 1/16", you're protest-bait. From what i've seen on my own car, rolling _might_ let a 225 fit, but it will wear thru the fender liner in short order. In fact, i think i've seen that on an RS before. Legal? Hmm...
| KC | 04-28-2003 08:06 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by slim speedy [/i]
[B]Its the one JC sports sold when they were around. I believe Larry Ganz sells it now. Well I probably won't do well enough at the national tour that anyone will bother with protesting me, so maybe I'll just leave it on anyway. [/B][/QUOTE]So you're going to pay and go to a national event, and the possibility exists that you can get protested and at the end receive no times as your penalty making the weekend a waste. Why go then? (Other than to give the SCCA your entry fee as a donation?) :D
*what if* everyone cones their runs in front of you and you end up first? Then, you get protested for the knowingly illegal mod, and lose all your times?
Would it have been worth it then? ;)
Think about it.
--kC
[B]Its the one JC sports sold when they were around. I believe Larry Ganz sells it now. Well I probably won't do well enough at the national tour that anyone will bother with protesting me, so maybe I'll just leave it on anyway. [/B][/QUOTE]So you're going to pay and go to a national event, and the possibility exists that you can get protested and at the end receive no times as your penalty making the weekend a waste. Why go then? (Other than to give the SCCA your entry fee as a donation?) :D
*what if* everyone cones their runs in front of you and you end up first? Then, you get protested for the knowingly illegal mod, and lose all your times?
Would it have been worth it then? ;)
Think about it.
--kC
| slim speedy | 04-28-2003 10:59 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]So you're going to pay and go to a national event, and the possibility exists that you can get protested and at the end receive no times as your penalty making the weekend a waste. Why go then? (Other than to give the SCCA your entry fee as a donation?) :D
*what if* everyone cones their runs in front of you and you end up first? Then, you get protested for the knowingly illegal mod, and lose all your times?
Would it have been worth it then? ;)
Think about it.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats quite the what if!!! But yeah I get your point, I will try to make my car legal just because I don't like running with anything out of spec even if its something stupid like this. I think a few people have gotten the plate to fit by turning the bar sideways. If not maybe I'll take a hammer to the plate, although I'm sure technically that would be illegal also. I think I could talk someone out of making that weenie protest.
[B]So you're going to pay and go to a national event, and the possibility exists that you can get protested and at the end receive no times as your penalty making the weekend a waste. Why go then? (Other than to give the SCCA your entry fee as a donation?) :D
*what if* everyone cones their runs in front of you and you end up first? Then, you get protested for the knowingly illegal mod, and lose all your times?
Would it have been worth it then? ;)
Think about it.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats quite the what if!!! But yeah I get your point, I will try to make my car legal just because I don't like running with anything out of spec even if its something stupid like this. I think a few people have gotten the plate to fit by turning the bar sideways. If not maybe I'll take a hammer to the plate, although I'm sure technically that would be illegal also. I think I could talk someone out of making that weenie protest.
| KC | 04-28-2003 11:14 AM |
I can make it bigger:
[SIZE=9][B]What if[/B] [/SIZE] Better? :)
[SIZE=9][B]What if[/B] [/SIZE] Better? :)
| Corey | 04-29-2003 05:32 PM |
Re: Re: Hood Vent Backing Plates & STS
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]
Hood modifications are illegal. therefore all STi scoops, intake vents such as Sean's, and removing the backing plates is illegal.
[/b]. [/B][/QUOTE]
Hood modifications might be illegal, but an extra scoop might be seen as a "bodykit". Specifically if the scoop still has the backing plate behind it.
What is everyones thoughts behind a non-standard scoop in the vent location, with the backing plate still remaining underneath?
Thanks,
Corey #89 STS
[B]
Hood modifications are illegal. therefore all STi scoops, intake vents such as Sean's, and removing the backing plates is illegal.
[/b]. [/B][/QUOTE]
Hood modifications might be illegal, but an extra scoop might be seen as a "bodykit". Specifically if the scoop still has the backing plate behind it.
What is everyones thoughts behind a non-standard scoop in the vent location, with the backing plate still remaining underneath?
Thanks,
Corey #89 STS
| bvondran | 04-30-2003 12:18 AM |
[QUOTE]What is everyones thoughts behind a non-standard scoop in the vent location, with the backing plate still remaining underneath?[/QUOTE]
My opinion is the scoop is illegal. That doesn't necessarily mean you'd get protested for it, just means if you did, I think you'd have a good shot at losing. Why? Well, I think you'll have a hard time convincing people that a scoop is a bodykit, or a part of a bodykit, especially if it didn't come or doesn't come as a part of a bodykit. Generally, we think of bodykits as front spoilers, side ground effects and a rear bumper cover, plus maybe a rear wing. So trying to get a scoop included as part of a bodykit might be kinda hard.
Then where does it end, is the STI scoop now part of a bodykit, and maybe the bodykit for the STI scoop doesn't have the backing plate behind it!
Again, just my $.02
My opinion is the scoop is illegal. That doesn't necessarily mean you'd get protested for it, just means if you did, I think you'd have a good shot at losing. Why? Well, I think you'll have a hard time convincing people that a scoop is a bodykit, or a part of a bodykit, especially if it didn't come or doesn't come as a part of a bodykit. Generally, we think of bodykits as front spoilers, side ground effects and a rear bumper cover, plus maybe a rear wing. So trying to get a scoop included as part of a bodykit might be kinda hard.
Then where does it end, is the STI scoop now part of a bodykit, and maybe the bodykit for the STI scoop doesn't have the backing plate behind it!
Again, just my $.02
| 8Complex | 04-30-2003 04:12 AM |
There is actually a large advantage to having the vent covers off, pulling the heat out of the engine bay. The scoop cover off is pretty pointless, though. I did have my intake set up against the underside of the scoop 3 years ago and never got protested, nor even a second look, granted they were just local events.
| #522 | 04-30-2003 03:29 PM |
Being from the same area as jeddy, I know we have all agreed nobody cares about the plates. STS is basically all RS's with 1 or 2 random cars occasionally, so whatever advantage it gives is universal. If there were more serious competitors in our class, with different cars, they could protest.
My question if this happens is, if you don't have the holes/vents covered up, can you substitute with something else like duct tape to block them off?
My question if this happens is, if you don't have the holes/vents covered up, can you substitute with something else like duct tape to block them off?
| slim speedy | 04-30-2003 07:40 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by #522 [/i]
[B]
My question if this happens is, if you don't have the holes/vents covered up, can you substitute with something else like duct tape to block them off? [/B][/QUOTE]
The rule is no modifications are allowed to the hood, so substituting something else would be illegal as well. As would my idea of hammering the plate to make my strut brace fit.
[B]
My question if this happens is, if you don't have the holes/vents covered up, can you substitute with something else like duct tape to block them off? [/B][/QUOTE]
The rule is no modifications are allowed to the hood, so substituting something else would be illegal as well. As would my idea of hammering the plate to make my strut brace fit.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét