| leaknoil | 10-28-2005 04:12 AM |
Michelin seems a little angry
�
�
On October 26, 2005 the FIA�s World Motor Sport Council adopted new rules concerning the use of tyres in 2006: restoration of tyre changes during the race as well as increase in the number of tyres allotted per team. This is to be effective immediately for the 2006 season.
This urgent change, without advance notice:
Is incoherent with the cost reduction objectives sought by the FIA President
Is a step backwards in regards to the 2005 regulations presented, at the time, by the FIA solely for cost reduction purposes.
As a result, these new rules will immediately increase tyre development, production and logistics costs by 15% since, contrary to what has been said, the 2005 solutions can by no means be adapted to the new 2006 regulation. This decision reveals a lack of technical understanding of the product and of what a tyre really is.
In fact, tyre wear and grip are calculated to ensure an optimum performance for a specific distance. To switch from a tyre designed to run for 350 kms in 2005 to a tyre that can be changed every 100 kms
(or less) in 2006 will require tyre manufacturers to design an entirely new generation of tyres and will therefore increase costs.
As many have said and written in the past few weeks, we can only question the meaning behind this decision which negates all of the benefits of Michelin�s research in 2005 to design a tyre capable of running for 350 kms, allowing its partners to win 18 races throughout the year.
Michelin, therefore, questions the FIA's hidden motivations for the 2006 F1 regulation.
Once again, this event illustrates the F1�s problems of incoherent decision-making and lack of transparency.
In light of this situation, Michelin would like to thank its partner teams who did everything possible, unfortunately in vain, to inhibit a last minute new regulation returning, in fact, to previous regulations.
This urgent change, without advance notice:
Is incoherent with the cost reduction objectives sought by the FIA President
Is a step backwards in regards to the 2005 regulations presented, at the time, by the FIA solely for cost reduction purposes.
As a result, these new rules will immediately increase tyre development, production and logistics costs by 15% since, contrary to what has been said, the 2005 solutions can by no means be adapted to the new 2006 regulation. This decision reveals a lack of technical understanding of the product and of what a tyre really is.
In fact, tyre wear and grip are calculated to ensure an optimum performance for a specific distance. To switch from a tyre designed to run for 350 kms in 2005 to a tyre that can be changed every 100 kms
(or less) in 2006 will require tyre manufacturers to design an entirely new generation of tyres and will therefore increase costs.
As many have said and written in the past few weeks, we can only question the meaning behind this decision which negates all of the benefits of Michelin�s research in 2005 to design a tyre capable of running for 350 kms, allowing its partners to win 18 races throughout the year.
Michelin, therefore, questions the FIA's hidden motivations for the 2006 F1 regulation.
Once again, this event illustrates the F1�s problems of incoherent decision-making and lack of transparency.
In light of this situation, Michelin would like to thank its partner teams who did everything possible, unfortunately in vain, to inhibit a last minute new regulation returning, in fact, to previous regulations.
| Patrick Olsen | 10-28-2005 05:34 AM |
[QUOTE=leaknoil]In fact, tyre wear and grip are calculated to ensure an optimum performance for a specific distance. To switch from a tyre designed to run for 350 kms in 2005 to a tyre that can be changed every 100 kms (or less) in 2006 will require tyre manufacturers to design an entirely new generation of tyres and will therefore increase costs.[/QUOTE]
So when 2005's season started, some Michelin engineer pulled out his laptop, called up the folder on the company LAN that said "2004 tire design stuff" and deleted it? :lol: :rolleyes: I think Michelin might be exaggerating just a little bit on this.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
So when 2005's season started, some Michelin engineer pulled out his laptop, called up the folder on the company LAN that said "2004 tire design stuff" and deleted it? :lol: :rolleyes: I think Michelin might be exaggerating just a little bit on this.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| Storm | 10-28-2005 06:55 AM |
It's almost as if they were planning on NOT doing any design changes for the new generation of cars this season? Would they like some cheese to go with that whine?
| asquaredrex | 10-28-2005 09:04 AM |
A little off topic, but there was an interesting article on the Wall Street Journal front page yesterday on the exhorbitant cost and questionable benefit of tire suppliers in F1.
| Bonzo | 10-28-2005 09:16 AM |
Considering the amount it cost in not only dollars but also reputation methinks the FIA does not want another USGP05 repeat.
| artkevin | 10-28-2005 09:34 AM |
If they are going to put the regs back and are planning on making slicks within the next few years why not do them at the same time? I wish they would let either evolve the current long life tires or change over once to slicks. They will have to change tire formula and designs too quickly to make any sense to me.
| Ferg | 10-28-2005 10:01 AM |
The FIA hits back.
[QUOTE]FIA hits back at Michelin
By Jonathan Noble October 28th 2005, 12:46 GMT
Motor racing's governing body has hit back at Michelin's criticisms over the return of tyre changes next season.
Michelin issued a statement on Friday morning claiming that they were 'perplexed' by the decision to allow tyre changes to return in 2006, after just one season when tyres had to last for qualifying and a whole race distance.
But the FIA has not taken kindly to Michelin's stance - and said it is baffled about why the French tyre manufacturer is upset considering at least one of its partner teams must have voted in favour of the move in this week's Formula One Commission meeting.
"The FIA has noted the latest press statement made by Michelin regarding the 2006 Formula One regulations," said the statement, which is the latest in a series of public spats that have taken place between the FIA and Michelin ever since the farcical United States Grand Prix.
"The decision to reintroduce tyre changes in Formula One was supported by an overwhelming majority of the Formula One Commission members and by a unanimous vote of the FIA World Motor Sport Council.
"The Formula One Commission is made up of all the F1 stakeholders including representatives of the teams (10), event promoters (8), engine suppliers (1), tyre suppliers (1), sponsors (2) and just one representative each from the governing body and the commercial rights holder.
"Michelin are clearly confused, but it is difficult to understand which part of the very basic and entirely democratic voting procedures adopted by the FIA Michelin is perplexed by.
"As Michelin themselves point out this is the same regulation as in 2004 when, we must remind them, Michelin tyres ran without problem at Indianapolis." [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]FIA hits back at Michelin
By Jonathan Noble October 28th 2005, 12:46 GMT
Motor racing's governing body has hit back at Michelin's criticisms over the return of tyre changes next season.
Michelin issued a statement on Friday morning claiming that they were 'perplexed' by the decision to allow tyre changes to return in 2006, after just one season when tyres had to last for qualifying and a whole race distance.
But the FIA has not taken kindly to Michelin's stance - and said it is baffled about why the French tyre manufacturer is upset considering at least one of its partner teams must have voted in favour of the move in this week's Formula One Commission meeting.
"The FIA has noted the latest press statement made by Michelin regarding the 2006 Formula One regulations," said the statement, which is the latest in a series of public spats that have taken place between the FIA and Michelin ever since the farcical United States Grand Prix.
"The decision to reintroduce tyre changes in Formula One was supported by an overwhelming majority of the Formula One Commission members and by a unanimous vote of the FIA World Motor Sport Council.
"The Formula One Commission is made up of all the F1 stakeholders including representatives of the teams (10), event promoters (8), engine suppliers (1), tyre suppliers (1), sponsors (2) and just one representative each from the governing body and the commercial rights holder.
"Michelin are clearly confused, but it is difficult to understand which part of the very basic and entirely democratic voting procedures adopted by the FIA Michelin is perplexed by.
"As Michelin themselves point out this is the same regulation as in 2004 when, we must remind them, Michelin tyres ran without problem at Indianapolis." [/QUOTE]
| erich_sc | 10-28-2005 10:58 AM |
I had a feeling their reply to the statement would have it's final sentence include the word "Indianapolis" in it. :)
| CirrusWRX | 10-28-2005 11:24 AM |
If I were Michelin, I'd pull out of F1 all together in protest.
Of course, if I were Michelin, I'd also punch myself in the face every day and remind myself of how ignorant I am and how much I suck at life.
</baseless rant>
Of course, if I were Michelin, I'd also punch myself in the face every day and remind myself of how ignorant I am and how much I suck at life.
</baseless rant>
| bemani | 10-28-2005 11:55 AM |
[quote]"As Michelin themselves point out this is the same regulation as in 2004 when, we must remind them, Michelin tyres ran without problem at Indianapolis." [/quote]
Okay, that's just hitting below the belt.
Okay, that's just hitting below the belt.
| Ferg | 10-28-2005 02:09 PM |
I have the distinct feeling that when Max proofed the statement he must have said,
"It's great, but let me add one little bit here at the end..."
"It's great, but let me add one little bit here at the end..."
| AndyRoo | 10-28-2005 02:54 PM |
Michelin's reply:
"Yeah but...ummm...I hate you guys!"
"Yeah but...ummm...I hate you guys!"
| DrBiggly | 10-28-2005 02:57 PM |
[QUOTE=bemani]Okay, that's just hitting below the belt.[/QUOTE]
The way I figure it Michelin rather asked for a response with their little press release. Honestly, they didn't need to do one in the first place. Why waste the manpower on an official press release when they could use that energy to go and recover the data from the 2004 season of tires instead?
I can't blame the FIA for returning fire on a shot that was wholly unwarranted. :)
-Biggly
The way I figure it Michelin rather asked for a response with their little press release. Honestly, they didn't need to do one in the first place. Why waste the manpower on an official press release when they could use that energy to go and recover the data from the 2004 season of tires instead?
I can't blame the FIA for returning fire on a shot that was wholly unwarranted. :)
-Biggly
| jetfan2207 | 10-28-2005 03:11 PM |
IDK. I kind of liked the no tire change rule. It gave another dynamic to the sport. It required more stradegy and IMO made the sport more interesting. (plus I loved to see the chewed/bald tires by the end of every race) . Michelin are making a big deal about it though, I mean Bridgestone are also in the same boat, the only advantage that Bridestone has is that they do not have to supply as many teams.
Steve
Steve
| artkevin | 10-28-2005 03:52 PM |
I think Bridgestone picked up Toyota and Williams for next year so that should be 5 a per tire company.
| fuzzy13 | 10-28-2005 04:47 PM |
[QUOTE=artkevin]I think Bridgestone picked up Toyota and Williams for next year so that should be 5 a per tire company.[/QUOTE]
I wonder if Toyota and Williams had an inking that this might happen and decided to switch to Bridgestone whose 2004 tires performed better than Michelin's.
I wonder if Toyota and Williams had an inking that this might happen and decided to switch to Bridgestone whose 2004 tires performed better than Michelin's.
| Ferg | 10-28-2005 06:52 PM |
[QUOTE=fuzzy13]I wonder if Toyota and Williams had an inking that this might happen and decided to switch to Bridgestone whose 2004 tires performed better than Michelin's.[/QUOTE]
Either that or they figured that eventually F1 is going to move to a control tire (which it will in 2007..or was it 08?..whatever) and knew that Michelin would withdrawl from the sport when that happened.
Michelin has stated numerous times they aren't interested in F1 if there is no tire war.
Being on Bridgestones a few years ahead of your competition isn't a bad move.
Either that or they figured that eventually F1 is going to move to a control tire (which it will in 2007..or was it 08?..whatever) and knew that Michelin would withdrawl from the sport when that happened.
Michelin has stated numerous times they aren't interested in F1 if there is no tire war.
Being on Bridgestones a few years ahead of your competition isn't a bad move.
| artkevin | 10-28-2005 08:51 PM |
I have always been suprised that such a Japanese-centric team, builder and sponsors, would use French tires when Bridgestones are available.
I have heard that Sir Frank HATES paying for tires.
I have heard that Sir Frank HATES paying for tires.
| Ferg | 10-28-2005 09:16 PM |
Who pays for tires in F1?
I was always under the impression that for a tire manufacturer to provide tires for Formula One, the first stipulation is they can't charge for them.
I was always under the impression that for a tire manufacturer to provide tires for Formula One, the first stipulation is they can't charge for them.
| Kwyjibo | 10-28-2005 11:50 PM |
i like the no tire change rule. it keeps michelin and bridgestone "in the race" as well.
it would also suck to spend all that time and money developing a new tire (for 05) and then be told that you can't use that tire in 06...all that R&D down the drain
it would also suck to spend all that time and money developing a new tire (for 05) and then be told that you can't use that tire in 06...all that R&D down the drain
| 06STi | 10-29-2005 12:26 AM |
There is alot of R&D, But the 05 tire is not devolped for 06.
The 06 tires are made in 06 during closed tire testing sessions.
There is toooo many varibles to design, build a race a tire that is a year behind.
We had all the tools needed at the track for compounding. So that tire that hits the tarmac was made and shipped out a week before the race. Closed tire testing happens Dec-Jan-March. Thats when we pick the tire construction, Casing and Aspect ratios. For race week we have about 6 trailers full of tires with differant compounds of the tire construction we found that worked best. Then during leading up to race day, we are working with compounds and driver set up to better the car....
Its alot fo work. Alot of money. They are not put off as much as they want everyone to think they are. Tires is a huge political game..... More then women in racing is....
Most of my tire backround was though motorcycles, but a little in cars too
The 06 tires are made in 06 during closed tire testing sessions.
There is toooo many varibles to design, build a race a tire that is a year behind.
We had all the tools needed at the track for compounding. So that tire that hits the tarmac was made and shipped out a week before the race. Closed tire testing happens Dec-Jan-March. Thats when we pick the tire construction, Casing and Aspect ratios. For race week we have about 6 trailers full of tires with differant compounds of the tire construction we found that worked best. Then during leading up to race day, we are working with compounds and driver set up to better the car....
Its alot fo work. Alot of money. They are not put off as much as they want everyone to think they are. Tires is a huge political game..... More then women in racing is....
Most of my tire backround was though motorcycles, but a little in cars too
| Ferg | 10-29-2005 12:30 AM |
You obviously work for a major tire company?
Very cool. :D
Which race series do you work with?
ah, nice edit :)
Very cool. :D
Which race series do you work with?
ah, nice edit :)
| 06STi | 10-29-2005 12:32 AM |
Hey mod....
I'll stay quite now.... :D
Plus I dont want to be hit with a vendor status.... :devil: lol
I'll stay quite now.... :D
Plus I dont want to be hit with a vendor status.... :devil: lol
| Ferg | 10-29-2005 12:43 AM |
Unless you're vending I could care less, plus I'm no motorsports mod ;)
So please don't stay quite, insider information is what we crave so keep it coming.
:D
So please don't stay quite, insider information is what we crave so keep it coming.
:D
| artkevin | 10-29-2005 02:22 PM |
[QUOTE=Ferg]
So please don't stay quite, insider information is what we crave so keep it coming.
:D[/QUOTE]
:banana:
So please don't stay quite, insider information is what we crave so keep it coming.
:D[/QUOTE]
:banana:
| Ferg | 10-30-2005 10:43 AM |
Michelin not letting up...
[QUOTE]Michelin CEO continues FIA criticism
By Jonathan Noble October 30th 2005, 09:09 GMT
Michelin are showing no signs of backing down in their criticisms of the FIA after the company boss again questioned the real reasons behind major changes in tyre regulations - and claimed that the FIA is making a mistake in heading to a control tyre in the future.
Edouard Michelin, the CEO of the French tyre manufacturer, told reporters at the Catalunya Rally that he remains baffled about why tyre change rules were pushed through the Formula One Commission earlier this week.
"The decisions, the changes at the last minute, always bring you to wonder about the reasons or the real motivations," he said in Spain. "I think for motor racing to function well, one needs transparency and a clearness of intentions and objective.
"At the moment there is at the same time confusion on the objectives and of the urgency of the deadlines. It is a sign of problems, problems that are beyond us, but ones which will not throw a shadow over the formidable season that we had with our partners."
Michelin this week issued a press release slamming the rule changes as 'incoherent', although the FIA hit back by claiming that the regulations had been brought in democratically through a vote in the F1 Commission.
This public spat in the latest in a series of disputes that have surfaced between Michelin and the FIA since the United States Grand Prix this year.
And with Michelin remaining defiant in their stance against the FIA, it has again led to speculation that the company could turn their back on F1 in the near future.
Michelin added: "We make many efforts so that motor racing continues to evolve and move in the right direction - so it remains a true competition in technical terms. I think many people make the same analysis as us.
"Why are there problems with F1? One can ask that question. But these problems will only be solved by being dealt with. We want to be positive and constructive players in this situation.
"And at the risk of disturbing certain practices and operating procedures which take place behind a democratic front, there are signs of serious problems of governship. The single tyre in F1? Not with Michelin..."
When asked whether that meant the French tyre manufacturer would definitely pull out when F1 switches to a control tyre, Michelin said that his company would work hard to convince the sport's bosses that competition should remain between tyre companies.
"Our position has been clearly expressed very often with regard to the single tyre," he added. "It is the beginning of the passage to the single engine, the single car and a standard car like a Clio. It is very interesting but it is not any more F1.
"The challenge, provided that the regulatory process functions, which is not really the case, is to control the situation intelligently so that the costs, the spectacle and safety are controlled while having equality between the teams so that the competitive capacities based on technology can be expressed.
"And the tyre is not an accessory to car performance, like a rear view mirror. If you destroy the affect of the tyre in competition it is an error of judgement.
"Those who preach this solution must recognise that they have failed in their capacity to allow competition to remain while controlling costs, the spectacle and safety. I think that this situation shows in an obvious way that the regulatory body functions badly.
"When a regulatory body functions properly, as is the case in rallying and motorbikes, the competition is good, desirable and brings value to the manufacturers and especially to the public. Our wish is that this situation develops also positively for F1."[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Michelin CEO continues FIA criticism
By Jonathan Noble October 30th 2005, 09:09 GMT
Michelin are showing no signs of backing down in their criticisms of the FIA after the company boss again questioned the real reasons behind major changes in tyre regulations - and claimed that the FIA is making a mistake in heading to a control tyre in the future.
Edouard Michelin, the CEO of the French tyre manufacturer, told reporters at the Catalunya Rally that he remains baffled about why tyre change rules were pushed through the Formula One Commission earlier this week.
"The decisions, the changes at the last minute, always bring you to wonder about the reasons or the real motivations," he said in Spain. "I think for motor racing to function well, one needs transparency and a clearness of intentions and objective.
"At the moment there is at the same time confusion on the objectives and of the urgency of the deadlines. It is a sign of problems, problems that are beyond us, but ones which will not throw a shadow over the formidable season that we had with our partners."
Michelin this week issued a press release slamming the rule changes as 'incoherent', although the FIA hit back by claiming that the regulations had been brought in democratically through a vote in the F1 Commission.
This public spat in the latest in a series of disputes that have surfaced between Michelin and the FIA since the United States Grand Prix this year.
And with Michelin remaining defiant in their stance against the FIA, it has again led to speculation that the company could turn their back on F1 in the near future.
Michelin added: "We make many efforts so that motor racing continues to evolve and move in the right direction - so it remains a true competition in technical terms. I think many people make the same analysis as us.
"Why are there problems with F1? One can ask that question. But these problems will only be solved by being dealt with. We want to be positive and constructive players in this situation.
"And at the risk of disturbing certain practices and operating procedures which take place behind a democratic front, there are signs of serious problems of governship. The single tyre in F1? Not with Michelin..."
When asked whether that meant the French tyre manufacturer would definitely pull out when F1 switches to a control tyre, Michelin said that his company would work hard to convince the sport's bosses that competition should remain between tyre companies.
"Our position has been clearly expressed very often with regard to the single tyre," he added. "It is the beginning of the passage to the single engine, the single car and a standard car like a Clio. It is very interesting but it is not any more F1.
"The challenge, provided that the regulatory process functions, which is not really the case, is to control the situation intelligently so that the costs, the spectacle and safety are controlled while having equality between the teams so that the competitive capacities based on technology can be expressed.
"And the tyre is not an accessory to car performance, like a rear view mirror. If you destroy the affect of the tyre in competition it is an error of judgement.
"Those who preach this solution must recognise that they have failed in their capacity to allow competition to remain while controlling costs, the spectacle and safety. I think that this situation shows in an obvious way that the regulatory body functions badly.
"When a regulatory body functions properly, as is the case in rallying and motorbikes, the competition is good, desirable and brings value to the manufacturers and especially to the public. Our wish is that this situation develops also positively for F1."[/QUOTE]
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