| deimos | 04-06-2003 12:37 AM |
Definitive Harness Answers 1.0
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I've been debating getting harnesses for track days for my wrx. I've done a bunch of auto-x with the Sparco clubman, and have been unimpressed with the whole harness thing. I believe it's my choice of harnesses to date that shaped this opinion.
After poking around the web for resources, FAQs, etc, I've come to the conclusion that there is a lot of mis-information out there. Suprised? Neither am I.
My search began by looking for harnesses that didn't require a roll cage, but would be safe for track days. It's been a long, strange journey to say the least. This is a long post.
I've tried to categorize the mis-information I've found thus far. I'll address each one based on the info I've gathered from what I consider professional sources; the harness companies themselves and their referred safety techs "in the field". I'm still in process of doing research with the SCCA and NASA (not the space agency).
1) You'll submarine in any rapid deceleration event; crashes, romping the brakes into a turn, etc.;
2) In a roll-over situation, you'll be crushed because the harness won't let you duck/fold in half/bend over to avoid the roof;
3) Only the stock seatbelts are DOT approved, and you will fail inspection/get a ticket/get impounded;
4) You need custom seats to handle harnesses;
5) Harnesses are only safe with a rollbar/rollcage.
Here goes, I'm open to feedback:
1) Partially true. Submarining is when you're butt begins to slide towards the dashboard. Any properly tightened lap belt in a 3 or 4 point harness setup will not allow you to submarine in all but actual collisions. If you are submarining during hard braking, tighten the lap belt. There are harnesses available (Schroth has a few) that have ways to stop submarining in a crash. They can't be street legal/DOT-approved without this (this already implies #3 is false). Anti-submarine belts are great in 5 point plus harnesses, but not advised in factory stock cars without the proper mounting locations.
2) False. This is a long answer. In a roll-over situation, the forces involved are typically greater than 8-10 times gravity, or g's. Say a light roll, at 8 g's, the average person is not strong enough to hold themselves in position (thereby counteracting the 8g's), nevermind pull against it in the opposite direction (thereby pulling 16gs total) to duck. The normal force is pulling you through the floor in a classic side to side roll, the force you feel is trying to pull you through the roof. Harnesses will work much more effectively than stock belts to hold you in your seat during these situation.
As was said to me, without a rollbar/cage, you're chances of surviving a rollover are slim, even more slim if you stop upside down. An unchecked comment is that most rollovers do not stop upside down, but rather on the side after being stopped by an object (wall, bales of hay, etc). A rollbar/cage is the safest way to prepare for these situations. Nothing else, not even the WRX's "built-in" roll cage will significantly increase your chances of survival in a roll.
Many modern cars also have "crush points" which allow a significant amount of the energy involved in the crush to be expended. Generally, the a pillars have these points. The B pillars are generally able to withstand a significant amount of force for a short period of time (hopefully long enough to get out, or be pulled out). The C pillars generally have crush points for rear-end collisions. I believe "time upside down" is part of NHTSA guidelines, but I don't have a definitive answer just yet.
Besides, as the rep at Sparco put it, you're not going to be able to bend in half too far without hitting the steering wheel and the impending airbag explosion.
3) Any harness that has an orange-red button on the lapbelt latch is DOT approved, supposedly. The manufacturer apparently can only acquire this item with proof of DOT approval. The orange-red button is there for emergency personnel to quickly recognize and to know how to unlatch it. 5 pt harnesses typically have a rotating locking mechanism, that are not DOT approved; eventhough they are by design, exceeding DOT standards.
4) Partially true. Most cars have acceptable seats which allow proper harness fitment. These fittings are generally diagrammed in the installation/owners manual of the harness.
5) False. If the harness is properly mounted, it will be equally as safe as those mounted to a rollbar/cage. The rollbar/cage provides additional safety unrelated to the harness itself.
As I said, I'm still researching these points. I'm open to factual references, involving DOT or European/Asian equivalents, published studies, and the like. I'm not open to "my friend the local track safety steward claims....". Like I said, there is a lot of mis-information out there. You'd be surprised how many people believe these falsehoods.
I'm also open to being proven completely wrong on all counts. Almost all of this information comes from Schroth and Sparco reps. Simpson didn't return my calls. They have a motive to sell more harnesses, please be aware of that bias.
My intent is to really just find out what's truth and what's conjecture. After what I've read and such, I'm probably going to get a rollbar for my car. Most of my stuff isn't online, I went to the actual library! I will look for 'net links to elucidate more info.
After poking around the web for resources, FAQs, etc, I've come to the conclusion that there is a lot of mis-information out there. Suprised? Neither am I.
My search began by looking for harnesses that didn't require a roll cage, but would be safe for track days. It's been a long, strange journey to say the least. This is a long post.
I've tried to categorize the mis-information I've found thus far. I'll address each one based on the info I've gathered from what I consider professional sources; the harness companies themselves and their referred safety techs "in the field". I'm still in process of doing research with the SCCA and NASA (not the space agency).
1) You'll submarine in any rapid deceleration event; crashes, romping the brakes into a turn, etc.;
2) In a roll-over situation, you'll be crushed because the harness won't let you duck/fold in half/bend over to avoid the roof;
3) Only the stock seatbelts are DOT approved, and you will fail inspection/get a ticket/get impounded;
4) You need custom seats to handle harnesses;
5) Harnesses are only safe with a rollbar/rollcage.
Here goes, I'm open to feedback:
1) Partially true. Submarining is when you're butt begins to slide towards the dashboard. Any properly tightened lap belt in a 3 or 4 point harness setup will not allow you to submarine in all but actual collisions. If you are submarining during hard braking, tighten the lap belt. There are harnesses available (Schroth has a few) that have ways to stop submarining in a crash. They can't be street legal/DOT-approved without this (this already implies #3 is false). Anti-submarine belts are great in 5 point plus harnesses, but not advised in factory stock cars without the proper mounting locations.
2) False. This is a long answer. In a roll-over situation, the forces involved are typically greater than 8-10 times gravity, or g's. Say a light roll, at 8 g's, the average person is not strong enough to hold themselves in position (thereby counteracting the 8g's), nevermind pull against it in the opposite direction (thereby pulling 16gs total) to duck. The normal force is pulling you through the floor in a classic side to side roll, the force you feel is trying to pull you through the roof. Harnesses will work much more effectively than stock belts to hold you in your seat during these situation.
As was said to me, without a rollbar/cage, you're chances of surviving a rollover are slim, even more slim if you stop upside down. An unchecked comment is that most rollovers do not stop upside down, but rather on the side after being stopped by an object (wall, bales of hay, etc). A rollbar/cage is the safest way to prepare for these situations. Nothing else, not even the WRX's "built-in" roll cage will significantly increase your chances of survival in a roll.
Many modern cars also have "crush points" which allow a significant amount of the energy involved in the crush to be expended. Generally, the a pillars have these points. The B pillars are generally able to withstand a significant amount of force for a short period of time (hopefully long enough to get out, or be pulled out). The C pillars generally have crush points for rear-end collisions. I believe "time upside down" is part of NHTSA guidelines, but I don't have a definitive answer just yet.
Besides, as the rep at Sparco put it, you're not going to be able to bend in half too far without hitting the steering wheel and the impending airbag explosion.
3) Any harness that has an orange-red button on the lapbelt latch is DOT approved, supposedly. The manufacturer apparently can only acquire this item with proof of DOT approval. The orange-red button is there for emergency personnel to quickly recognize and to know how to unlatch it. 5 pt harnesses typically have a rotating locking mechanism, that are not DOT approved; eventhough they are by design, exceeding DOT standards.
4) Partially true. Most cars have acceptable seats which allow proper harness fitment. These fittings are generally diagrammed in the installation/owners manual of the harness.
5) False. If the harness is properly mounted, it will be equally as safe as those mounted to a rollbar/cage. The rollbar/cage provides additional safety unrelated to the harness itself.
As I said, I'm still researching these points. I'm open to factual references, involving DOT or European/Asian equivalents, published studies, and the like. I'm not open to "my friend the local track safety steward claims....". Like I said, there is a lot of mis-information out there. You'd be surprised how many people believe these falsehoods.
I'm also open to being proven completely wrong on all counts. Almost all of this information comes from Schroth and Sparco reps. Simpson didn't return my calls. They have a motive to sell more harnesses, please be aware of that bias.
My intent is to really just find out what's truth and what's conjecture. After what I've read and such, I'm probably going to get a rollbar for my car. Most of my stuff isn't online, I went to the actual library! I will look for 'net links to elucidate more info.
| deimos | 04-06-2003 12:42 AM |
omg this is a big post. Sorry. :P
| wylie | 04-06-2003 01:32 PM |
Speedware harness bar
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I have a speedware harness bar and I didn't feel the comments regarding being less safe in a roll-over made much sense to me either.
I would be curious as to its effect during a side impact though. Since it anchors both B-pillars together it should make for a stiffer chassis shell and better resist crumpling under a side-impact. I guess no way to know without real world testing?
Thanks for bringing this topic up. I go to alot of track days; although most of the events are pretty safe, I don't think everyone thinks about safety as much as they should. I've heard of people's wheels coming off because they didn't tighten down their lug nuts!
I would be curious as to its effect during a side impact though. Since it anchors both B-pillars together it should make for a stiffer chassis shell and better resist crumpling under a side-impact. I guess no way to know without real world testing?
Thanks for bringing this topic up. I go to alot of track days; although most of the events are pretty safe, I don't think everyone thinks about safety as much as they should. I've heard of people's wheels coming off because they didn't tighten down their lug nuts!
| fengshui-fu | 04-06-2003 01:51 PM |
As someone who has put harnesses in his car (Sparco Clubman 3 pt, now in passenger side and sparco 4 pt 2" camlock in driver's side) I appreciate the research you are doing and will be following this thread closely. For autoX, where I use the harnesses the most, in a correctly designed course, chance of roll-over is slim. The harness holds me in better than the stock belts could ever. I somewhat agree with #4 since I have noticed that certain seats are better suited for harness use than the 2002-2003 stock WRX seats (2004 and STi gets nice shoulder belt seats). And the addition of the anti submarine belt in either 5pt or 6pt configuration would definitely help hold the lap belt portions in position as sometimes shifting in the seat upsets the tightness around the waist/hips. Keep us posted as to what you find out.
chris
chris
| fengshui-fu | 04-06-2003 01:53 PM |
Re: Speedware harness bar
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wylie [/i]
[B]I've heard of people's wheels coming off because they didn't tighten down their lug nuts! [/B][/QUOTE]
I think this is more due to the need to tighten the nut behind the wheel ;) Maintenance and good running condition is almost as important as car control.
chris
[B]I've heard of people's wheels coming off because they didn't tighten down their lug nuts! [/B][/QUOTE]
I think this is more due to the need to tighten the nut behind the wheel ;) Maintenance and good running condition is almost as important as car control.
chris
| Habu | 04-06-2003 09:33 PM |
I hace th Clubman also, it's mounted to [I]pre-drilled and tapped[/I] mouting points already in the car. I not only use it for auto-x, but for everyday driving. Works just fine.
Gotta fly!
Skippy
Gotta fly!
Skippy
| deimos | 04-06-2003 11:07 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Habu [/i]
[B]I hace th Clubman also, it's mounted to [I]pre-drilled and tapped[/I] mouting points already in the car. I not only use it for auto-x, but for everyday driving. Works just fine.
[/B][/QUOTE]
In order to be DOT legal and meet federal standards, you have to mount it in the existing seatbelt mounts. However, you can do whatever you want. I don't quite understand if this is what you are saying or not.
My personal preference is for the Schroth. I installed Rallye 4 asm's today. It is worlds of different from the clubman. It fits me better, holds me in tighter, and I haven't submarined at all. I could never get the clubman to fit correctly, nor tighten enough for my liking.
To each their own.
[B]I hace th Clubman also, it's mounted to [I]pre-drilled and tapped[/I] mouting points already in the car. I not only use it for auto-x, but for everyday driving. Works just fine.
[/B][/QUOTE]
In order to be DOT legal and meet federal standards, you have to mount it in the existing seatbelt mounts. However, you can do whatever you want. I don't quite understand if this is what you are saying or not.
My personal preference is for the Schroth. I installed Rallye 4 asm's today. It is worlds of different from the clubman. It fits me better, holds me in tighter, and I haven't submarined at all. I could never get the clubman to fit correctly, nor tighten enough for my liking.
To each their own.
| MSG | 04-07-2003 12:21 AM |
I bought the Speedware harness bar & Sparco 5-point belts, installed them last week, and had my first track event on Saturday.
First, the Speedware bar is excellent. Not only does it fit & work perfectly, but it is beautiful. And, as a bonus I now have a camera-mount place. Can't wait to review my tape from this weekend.
The Sparco belts mount piggy-backed to the lap belts. So, for normal driving, I use the OEM seatbelt and tuck the Sparco's under the seat. I had to make a simple plate across the front mount screws for the seat, and sandwiched it between the floor & the bottom of the seat, drilling a hole for mounting the anti-submarine belt. This 5th belt is somewhat useless; in a formula car, it presses right against the crotch. With the OEM seat, you will need to travel 5" before it comes into effect. And, with the upright seating position in the WRX, the lap belt will likely be more that sufficient.
Yes, it works with OEM seats. No, you don't need a full cage for it to work, although this will obviously provide a higher level of protection.
No, this bar won't help in a rollover. Only a full cage will do that. And, leaving the bar installed makes the back seat unusable, as your passenger will do a nice forehead plant into the bar in a rapid deceleration situation where the rear shoulder belt doesn't lock. I will get some roll bar padding to put over it to fix this problem.
Summary-this is a great bar, and the 5-point belts kept my butt planted in the seat at the track, which the OEM belts do not do. It allowed me to concentrate on the track, and not re-planting my butt into the center of the seat after each corner.
Only problem-bringing the car to the dealer. Waiting to see if they give me grief, asking me how I use MY car.
First, the Speedware bar is excellent. Not only does it fit & work perfectly, but it is beautiful. And, as a bonus I now have a camera-mount place. Can't wait to review my tape from this weekend.
The Sparco belts mount piggy-backed to the lap belts. So, for normal driving, I use the OEM seatbelt and tuck the Sparco's under the seat. I had to make a simple plate across the front mount screws for the seat, and sandwiched it between the floor & the bottom of the seat, drilling a hole for mounting the anti-submarine belt. This 5th belt is somewhat useless; in a formula car, it presses right against the crotch. With the OEM seat, you will need to travel 5" before it comes into effect. And, with the upright seating position in the WRX, the lap belt will likely be more that sufficient.
Yes, it works with OEM seats. No, you don't need a full cage for it to work, although this will obviously provide a higher level of protection.
No, this bar won't help in a rollover. Only a full cage will do that. And, leaving the bar installed makes the back seat unusable, as your passenger will do a nice forehead plant into the bar in a rapid deceleration situation where the rear shoulder belt doesn't lock. I will get some roll bar padding to put over it to fix this problem.
Summary-this is a great bar, and the 5-point belts kept my butt planted in the seat at the track, which the OEM belts do not do. It allowed me to concentrate on the track, and not re-planting my butt into the center of the seat after each corner.
Only problem-bringing the car to the dealer. Waiting to see if they give me grief, asking me how I use MY car.
| deimos | 04-07-2003 12:41 AM |
My dealer gives me a hard time every time I go there for anything. They're a typical "blue hair" dealer, and having a "sporting fellow" show up makes them all nervous. I went there for an in warranty repair on my trunk (it wouldn't open remotely) and they start hemming and hawwing about how I've modded the car. Clearly harnesses and sway bar will directly affect the trunk release mechanism. :P
I've taken to driving 75 miles to a more friendly and realistic dealership.
I've taken to driving 75 miles to a more friendly and realistic dealership.
| Habu | 04-07-2003 01:13 AM |
The only existing mounts that I installed my clubman to, are the rear center mounts. The left eyebolt is mounted to the pre-drilled and tapped hole just ahead of the existing belt point, and the right eyebolt is attached to the right corner of the front seat mount bolt. I replaced the stock bolt with the Sabelt eyebolt. May or may not be DOT legal, but most people don't know that. I've never gottan any heat for it. I did get pulled over once, and the cop asked when I installed the harness, but that was it. I might go to a full 5-point, but I like the Clubman, works for me. Also, your body shape makes a difference, I've never had trouble with mine, holds me in just fine.
gotta fly!
Skippy
gotta fly!
Skippy
| spidey02wrx | 04-07-2003 10:09 AM |
good thread
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here is a good thread about your point #2 and some all around harness discussion. Personally, I don't feel comfortable running my Schroth 4 point at the track. When I put in a cage/rollbar/seats I'll go to a 5 point for the track.
[URL=http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=462717]Harness Debate[/URL]
thanks for the research
mark
[URL=http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=462717]Harness Debate[/URL]
thanks for the research
mark
| Steve '02 WRX | 04-07-2003 10:44 AM |
Just a couple of points about some of the things mentioned in this thread. The bottom straps on a 5 or 6 point harness aren't there primarily for anti-submarine purposes. If you have a 4 point harness and get in a crash without a lower strap, the shoulder straps will pull the lap belt up into your stomach causing internal injuries without the lower strap. No matter how tight you think you have the lap belt this will happen without a 5 or 6 point harness. The reason someone will submarine under the belt is because it gets pulled up by the shoulder harnesses in a crash. Also putting roll bar padding on a cage with the idea that it will protect someone in the rear seat from a head injury is nuts. If you have a roll cage or harness bar installed your back seat is no longer safe for passengers. Roll bar padding will help protect you if you have a helmet on, but even a padded roll bar is deadly in any serious crash without a helmet.
| na2tt | 04-07-2003 01:46 PM |
Re: Definitive Harness Answers 1.0
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What are you trying to do first of all? What kind of "track day" are you referring to? Using harness on the street or on the road course only? There are reasons why racing harnesses are not installed on production street cars. The most obvious reason is that racing harness is very uncomfortable when properly tightened. Average drivers are not willing give up comfort. I guess allowing drivers to ear, talking on the cell phone, bend down and pick up whatever is on the floor is safer.... Anyway,...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by deimos [/i]
[B]
1) You'll submarine in any rapid deceleration event; crashes, romping the brakes into a turn, etc.;
[/B]
4-point harness do NOT protect a driver from submarining. Cam lock up the stomach is no funny business. A 5 (or 6) point harness keeps the cam lock away from the driver�s stomach.
[B]
2) In a roll-over situation, you'll be crushed because the harness won't let you duck/fold in half/bend over to avoid the roof;
[/B]
There isn't much a driver can do during the rollover, with or without racing harness. The factory seat belt allows more maneuverability AFTER the car has stopped. The "crush points" are weakened during the roll over. The driver can duck if the roof started to collapse if he/she is strapped with the factory belt. With racing harness, the driver can't move because the racing harness secures him/her to the seat. To move, the racing harness must be released first. If the arms are hurts or the cam lock is out of the reach, the driver can't release the racing harness. On the other hand, factory belt allows body movement without it being released first. When the release mechanism is out of reach (or malfunctions), emergency crew only need to cut the factory belt once as opposed to multiple times for the racing harness.
[B]
3) Only the stock seatbelts are DOT approved, and you will fail inspection/get a ticket/get impounded;
[/B]
No comments about DOT =)
[B]
4) You need custom seats to handle harnesses;
[/B]
You do need bucket seats for the racing harness to work properly. All reclining seats are not suitable for racing harness, even those with "holes" for them, like Sparco Torino. The reclining seat can fail at the pivot upon impact and the back rest can flex. Not all bucket seats are suitable for racing harness either, i.e., Sparco Roadster. Also, running the lap belt across factory seat is just asking for trouble. It�s almost like they are not even there. Also, the lap belt can rub against metal parts.... When a buyer orders the club sport package for Porsche GT3 or GT2, the driver seat is replaced with bucket seat. In addition, a roll cage (not roll bar) comes with the club sport package.
[B]
5) Harnesses are only safe with a rollbar/rollcage.
[/B]
The function of the roll cage is to absorb forces of impact. The function of the racing harness is to lock the driver in the seat and let the roll cage do the work. Therefore, the mounting points should not be on/near the shell of the car, such as the stock seat belt mounting points. Double hoop roll bar (|\ versus |) with harness bar should be a minimum requirement for installing racing harness. Single hoop roll bars can wobble. Since the driver can't bend his/her body, once secured with the harness, the roll bars give an extra level of roll over/roof collapsing protection. Ideally, the harness should be horizontal from the seat's "holes" to the harness bar. If the harness is slanted down too much, the driver's spine is at risk of being crushed by the downward force exerted by the harness during an accident. That's one of the reasons why race car drivers have their own molded seats. When you say properly mounted, what mounting point(s) are you referring to?
At highway speed (I would say about ~95mph), the roof of the car should be enough to protect the passengers in case of a rollover. I say that because some drag racing tracks (not to mention sanctioning bodies) require roll bar or roll cage if the car is 12 (or 10) second or quicker. The trap speed for a 12 second car should be ~120 or so.
A roll cage provides more rollover protection to the driver than the roll bar. However, a caged car also has more exposed bars. If a roll cage is installed, a helmet should be worn all the time. No matter how much padding is used on the bars, the bars are still stronger than human skull. Anything can happen during an accident, head and limbs are flying objects in an accident. If a head hitting injuries on the steering wheel can kill a person at speed, it does not take a genius to figure out what would happen when hitting a metal bar (with equal or less force).
[/QUOTE]
--Joey
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by deimos [/i]
[B]
1) You'll submarine in any rapid deceleration event; crashes, romping the brakes into a turn, etc.;
[/B]
4-point harness do NOT protect a driver from submarining. Cam lock up the stomach is no funny business. A 5 (or 6) point harness keeps the cam lock away from the driver�s stomach.
[B]
2) In a roll-over situation, you'll be crushed because the harness won't let you duck/fold in half/bend over to avoid the roof;
[/B]
There isn't much a driver can do during the rollover, with or without racing harness. The factory seat belt allows more maneuverability AFTER the car has stopped. The "crush points" are weakened during the roll over. The driver can duck if the roof started to collapse if he/she is strapped with the factory belt. With racing harness, the driver can't move because the racing harness secures him/her to the seat. To move, the racing harness must be released first. If the arms are hurts or the cam lock is out of the reach, the driver can't release the racing harness. On the other hand, factory belt allows body movement without it being released first. When the release mechanism is out of reach (or malfunctions), emergency crew only need to cut the factory belt once as opposed to multiple times for the racing harness.
[B]
3) Only the stock seatbelts are DOT approved, and you will fail inspection/get a ticket/get impounded;
[/B]
No comments about DOT =)
[B]
4) You need custom seats to handle harnesses;
[/B]
You do need bucket seats for the racing harness to work properly. All reclining seats are not suitable for racing harness, even those with "holes" for them, like Sparco Torino. The reclining seat can fail at the pivot upon impact and the back rest can flex. Not all bucket seats are suitable for racing harness either, i.e., Sparco Roadster. Also, running the lap belt across factory seat is just asking for trouble. It�s almost like they are not even there. Also, the lap belt can rub against metal parts.... When a buyer orders the club sport package for Porsche GT3 or GT2, the driver seat is replaced with bucket seat. In addition, a roll cage (not roll bar) comes with the club sport package.
[B]
5) Harnesses are only safe with a rollbar/rollcage.
[/B]
The function of the roll cage is to absorb forces of impact. The function of the racing harness is to lock the driver in the seat and let the roll cage do the work. Therefore, the mounting points should not be on/near the shell of the car, such as the stock seat belt mounting points. Double hoop roll bar (|\ versus |) with harness bar should be a minimum requirement for installing racing harness. Single hoop roll bars can wobble. Since the driver can't bend his/her body, once secured with the harness, the roll bars give an extra level of roll over/roof collapsing protection. Ideally, the harness should be horizontal from the seat's "holes" to the harness bar. If the harness is slanted down too much, the driver's spine is at risk of being crushed by the downward force exerted by the harness during an accident. That's one of the reasons why race car drivers have their own molded seats. When you say properly mounted, what mounting point(s) are you referring to?
At highway speed (I would say about ~95mph), the roof of the car should be enough to protect the passengers in case of a rollover. I say that because some drag racing tracks (not to mention sanctioning bodies) require roll bar or roll cage if the car is 12 (or 10) second or quicker. The trap speed for a 12 second car should be ~120 or so.
A roll cage provides more rollover protection to the driver than the roll bar. However, a caged car also has more exposed bars. If a roll cage is installed, a helmet should be worn all the time. No matter how much padding is used on the bars, the bars are still stronger than human skull. Anything can happen during an accident, head and limbs are flying objects in an accident. If a head hitting injuries on the steering wheel can kill a person at speed, it does not take a genius to figure out what would happen when hitting a metal bar (with equal or less force).
[/QUOTE]
--Joey
| EricB | 04-07-2003 04:49 PM |
Someone sort of touched on this, but I thought the purpose of the 5th belt on a 5 point is to hold the lap belt down. That's what's going to prevent your from submarining. It's not the belt holding your body weight.
Yow! Imagine that. Pulling a couple of G's in a crash on a single belt in the crotch!
Eric
Yow! Imagine that. Pulling a couple of G's in a crash on a single belt in the crotch!
Eric
| deimos | 04-07-2003 05:14 PM |
Re: Re: Definitive Harness Answers 1.0
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by na2tt [/i]
[B]What are you trying to do first of all? What kind of "track day" are you referring to?--Joey [/B][/QUOTE]
My track days are my intro into track racing and hopefully wheel to wheel in the future. I come from the beginnings of a motorcycle racing stint, so all of this protection required seems overkill to me. :P I'm kidding.
I believe you corraborated most of my answers in your post. Thanks.
The nhtsa and dot sites are very slim on rollover stats and/or requirements.
I'm collecting some more data for a more info packed post in the near future.
[B]What are you trying to do first of all? What kind of "track day" are you referring to?--Joey [/B][/QUOTE]
My track days are my intro into track racing and hopefully wheel to wheel in the future. I come from the beginnings of a motorcycle racing stint, so all of this protection required seems overkill to me. :P I'm kidding.
I believe you corraborated most of my answers in your post. Thanks.
The nhtsa and dot sites are very slim on rollover stats and/or requirements.
I'm collecting some more data for a more info packed post in the near future.
| deimos | 04-07-2003 05:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Habu [/i]
[B] Also, your body shape makes a difference, I've never had trouble with mine, holds me in just fine.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sure the clubman is a great belt. I could never get the lap belts tight enough. Perhaps I'm too skinny and need to fatten up. :P
And yes, if/when I do full racing, I'm going to get a rollbar/cage. I'll probably stop modding the wrx and just get a dedicated track car at that point. We'll see.
[B] Also, your body shape makes a difference, I've never had trouble with mine, holds me in just fine.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sure the clubman is a great belt. I could never get the lap belts tight enough. Perhaps I'm too skinny and need to fatten up. :P
And yes, if/when I do full racing, I'm going to get a rollbar/cage. I'll probably stop modding the wrx and just get a dedicated track car at that point. We'll see.
| paultg | 04-07-2003 06:03 PM |
This information I found on a website for a very popular shop in the Boston Area: HMS Motorsports. I went to a "Into to Open Track Events" tech session held at the facility by the BMW club Boston Chapter. They covered (in pretty good detail) some of the information your discussing here:
[url]http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/moreinfo.php?prop_id=2[/url]
[url]http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/newstore.php?m=12#[/url]
I never felt like these guys were giving a sales pitch at all (in fact, for open track events they suggested sticking with your stock belts.
If your looking for some information I think a call to them would be helpful. They encournaged anyone who had purchased a harness to come to their shop if they had any install questions, even if they hadn't purchased the belts from their shop. Seemed like a really good bunch of folks.
Paul G.
[url]http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/moreinfo.php?prop_id=2[/url]
[url]http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/newstore.php?m=12#[/url]
I never felt like these guys were giving a sales pitch at all (in fact, for open track events they suggested sticking with your stock belts.
If your looking for some information I think a call to them would be helpful. They encournaged anyone who had purchased a harness to come to their shop if they had any install questions, even if they hadn't purchased the belts from their shop. Seemed like a really good bunch of folks.
Paul G.
| IXLR8 | 04-07-2003 07:08 PM |
Re: Definitive Harness Answers 1.0
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by deimos [/i]
[B]
5) Harnesses are only safe with a rollbar/rollcage.
5) False. If the harness is properly mounted, it will be equally as safe as those mounted to a rollbar/cage. The rollbar/cage provides additional safety unrelated to the harness itself.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The issue of harness safety with a roll bar/cage isn't about mounting. It's about crush. (your point 2, I believe.) Further, crush isn't about "ducking". It's about where force is applied, to what (most likely, your head), and whether or not it (your head) can move.
Instead of another long debate/thread, take a look at the photo in this thread ([url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=247180[/url]) of what was once an M-3 coupe. The driver and instructor "walked" away with relatively minor injuries. They were wearing the stock, 3-point belts.
What do you think would have happened if they were in a harness???
[B]
5) Harnesses are only safe with a rollbar/rollcage.
5) False. If the harness is properly mounted, it will be equally as safe as those mounted to a rollbar/cage. The rollbar/cage provides additional safety unrelated to the harness itself.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The issue of harness safety with a roll bar/cage isn't about mounting. It's about crush. (your point 2, I believe.) Further, crush isn't about "ducking". It's about where force is applied, to what (most likely, your head), and whether or not it (your head) can move.
Instead of another long debate/thread, take a look at the photo in this thread ([url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=247180[/url]) of what was once an M-3 coupe. The driver and instructor "walked" away with relatively minor injuries. They were wearing the stock, 3-point belts.
What do you think would have happened if they were in a harness???
| paultg | 04-07-2003 08:24 PM |
Forgive me for possibly adding yet again another false statement:
But is was my understanding that 5 and/or 6 poiint harnesses were not safe to use without a proper race seat designed for the harness?
Paul G.
But is was my understanding that 5 and/or 6 poiint harnesses were not safe to use without a proper race seat designed for the harness?
Paul G.
| deimos | 04-07-2003 09:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg [/i]
[B]This information I found on a website for a very popular shop in the Boston Area: HMS Motorsports.
Paul G. [/B][/QUOTE]
I bought my harnesses there. :P
Their info was so opposite what I'd heard and read about, that's what made me investigate all this. As I started calling the vendors and digging in, I find that they (HMS) had the correct answers to my questions. This research just confirmed it. Too bad they're a BMW shop :P
[B]This information I found on a website for a very popular shop in the Boston Area: HMS Motorsports.
Paul G. [/B][/QUOTE]
I bought my harnesses there. :P
Their info was so opposite what I'd heard and read about, that's what made me investigate all this. As I started calling the vendors and digging in, I find that they (HMS) had the correct answers to my questions. This research just confirmed it. Too bad they're a BMW shop :P
| paultg | 04-07-2003 10:09 PM |
:lol:
I thought you were from around these parts. :)
Yeah, very nice bunch of folks. I wanted them to make the DOT Scroth Belts for Subarus, but it takes alot of interest to design/test them for DOT certification.
Paul G.
I thought you were from around these parts. :)
Yeah, very nice bunch of folks. I wanted them to make the DOT Scroth Belts for Subarus, but it takes alot of interest to design/test them for DOT certification.
Paul G.
| elgorey | 04-08-2003 01:17 PM |
If you like keeping your head attached to your neck, do [b]not[/b] get harnesses without rollover protection. Harness bars are not rollover protection. A rollbar or full cage is. Rollbar is the preffered method if your car is also driven on the street.
With very affordable and highquality rollbars made for the WRX from Autopower, there is no excuse not to run a rollbar. You can even install it yourself if you are mechanically inclined.
With very affordable and highquality rollbars made for the WRX from Autopower, there is no excuse not to run a rollbar. You can even install it yourself if you are mechanically inclined.
| deimos | 04-08-2003 09:29 PM |
Re: Re: Definitive Harness Answers 1.0
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by IXLR8 [/i]
[B]
The issue of harness safety with a roll bar/cage isn't about mounting. It's about crush. (your point 2, I believe.)
What do you think would have happened if they were in a harness??? [/B][/QUOTE]
You are correct. Rollcages are about surviving a rollover. Not about better places to mount a harness.
In that pic, they were lucky. To counter that point, read the post by Sea Dragon Rex about the Porsche club. Just the opposite of what you're implying happened. That pic is missing the details on the inside, did they lean forward/sideways and crouch? Or were they thrown backwards, the seats crushed back and laying on their backs?
I agree with your point on safety equipment. I have no problem drilling holes and such in my car. As I said, I'm looking at roll bars/cages already. I'd much rather get a dedicated track car than start modding my daily driver.
I come from the perspective of a motorcycle racer. Having spent nearly $2500 on leathers, boots, gloves, helmets, and armor to be able to survive a 180mph slide across the pavement; I'm fine with some gear for the car. The only reason I can walk today is that I blew through $2500 in gear in one fall and was stopped by a ditch at the tail end of my slide before I hit far more solid objects beyond that ditch.
From experience, the cost of safety is nothing compared to the cost of life or quality of life after the accident.
[B]
The issue of harness safety with a roll bar/cage isn't about mounting. It's about crush. (your point 2, I believe.)
What do you think would have happened if they were in a harness??? [/B][/QUOTE]
You are correct. Rollcages are about surviving a rollover. Not about better places to mount a harness.
In that pic, they were lucky. To counter that point, read the post by Sea Dragon Rex about the Porsche club. Just the opposite of what you're implying happened. That pic is missing the details on the inside, did they lean forward/sideways and crouch? Or were they thrown backwards, the seats crushed back and laying on their backs?
I agree with your point on safety equipment. I have no problem drilling holes and such in my car. As I said, I'm looking at roll bars/cages already. I'd much rather get a dedicated track car than start modding my daily driver.
I come from the perspective of a motorcycle racer. Having spent nearly $2500 on leathers, boots, gloves, helmets, and armor to be able to survive a 180mph slide across the pavement; I'm fine with some gear for the car. The only reason I can walk today is that I blew through $2500 in gear in one fall and was stopped by a ditch at the tail end of my slide before I hit far more solid objects beyond that ditch.
From experience, the cost of safety is nothing compared to the cost of life or quality of life after the accident.
| WHTWRX | 04-22-2003 06:06 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by deimos [/i]
[B]
In order to be DOT legal and meet federal standards, you have to mount it in the existing seatbelt mounts. However, you can do whatever you want. I don't quite understand if this is what you are saying or not.
My personal preference is for the Schroth. I installed Rallye 4 asm's today. It is worlds of different from the clubman. It fits me better, holds me in tighter, and I haven't submarined at all. I could never get the clubman to fit correctly, nor tighten enough for my liking.
To each their own. [/B][/QUOTE]
Deimos,
So are you using your Rallye 4 for daily driving as well? I'm probably going to pick up one of these, with AutoX in mind.
Can someone point me to the standards for "DOT Harness Approval"? Is it anything more that mounting locations and safety release color?
Has the Rallye 4 been crash tested?
[B]
In order to be DOT legal and meet federal standards, you have to mount it in the existing seatbelt mounts. However, you can do whatever you want. I don't quite understand if this is what you are saying or not.
My personal preference is for the Schroth. I installed Rallye 4 asm's today. It is worlds of different from the clubman. It fits me better, holds me in tighter, and I haven't submarined at all. I could never get the clubman to fit correctly, nor tighten enough for my liking.
To each their own. [/B][/QUOTE]
Deimos,
So are you using your Rallye 4 for daily driving as well? I'm probably going to pick up one of these, with AutoX in mind.
Can someone point me to the standards for "DOT Harness Approval"? Is it anything more that mounting locations and safety release color?
Has the Rallye 4 been crash tested?
| deimos | 04-22-2003 07:33 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WHTWRX [/i]
[B]So are you using your Rallye 4 for daily driving as well? I'm probably going to pick up one of these, with AutoX in mind.
Can someone point me to the standards for "DOT Harness Approval"? Is it anything more that mounting locations and safety release color?
Has the Rallye 4 been crash tested? [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not using it for daily driving actually. Just for track days.
Your best bet for seatbelt/restraint system regulations is at [url]http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/[/url]
I've spent a lot of time poking around the various DOT sites trying to find the current regulations. They don't make it easy.
The rallye 4 has probably been crash tested, however I believe it only has to be tested every decade or so. So it may not have been tested on the later model cars. The Schroth manual has no cars past 1992 in it, I'm guessing they're due for a re-test.
[B]So are you using your Rallye 4 for daily driving as well? I'm probably going to pick up one of these, with AutoX in mind.
Can someone point me to the standards for "DOT Harness Approval"? Is it anything more that mounting locations and safety release color?
Has the Rallye 4 been crash tested? [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not using it for daily driving actually. Just for track days.
Your best bet for seatbelt/restraint system regulations is at [url]http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/[/url]
I've spent a lot of time poking around the various DOT sites trying to find the current regulations. They don't make it easy.
The rallye 4 has probably been crash tested, however I believe it only has to be tested every decade or so. So it may not have been tested on the later model cars. The Schroth manual has no cars past 1992 in it, I'm guessing they're due for a re-test.
| WHTWRX | 04-22-2003 09:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by deimos [/i]
[B]The rallye 4 has probably been crash tested, however I believe it only has to be tested every decade or so. So it may not have been tested on the later model cars. The Schroth manual has no cars past 1992 in it, I'm guessing they're due for a re-test. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, I just picked up a Rallye 4 at Sube Sports, Chad said they were fine for the WRX. The manual claims a 31 MPH head on (big whoop) crash test pass rating.
Yeah, I noticed that the JUSTY is not approved!! Haha, the oldest approved model year I saw was '95.
Given the limited movement you have when you've got this thing on, it kinda deters you from using it everyday anyway. So I'm happy, this will work great for Solo2 and those occasional exhibitions of speed and recklessness.
[B]The rallye 4 has probably been crash tested, however I believe it only has to be tested every decade or so. So it may not have been tested on the later model cars. The Schroth manual has no cars past 1992 in it, I'm guessing they're due for a re-test. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, I just picked up a Rallye 4 at Sube Sports, Chad said they were fine for the WRX. The manual claims a 31 MPH head on (big whoop) crash test pass rating.
Yeah, I noticed that the JUSTY is not approved!! Haha, the oldest approved model year I saw was '95.
Given the limited movement you have when you've got this thing on, it kinda deters you from using it everyday anyway. So I'm happy, this will work great for Solo2 and those occasional exhibitions of speed and recklessness.
| aspera | 05-14-2003 02:55 AM |
7/16 by 20 fine thread anchor points
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I got a decent deal on some Willans harnesses at Rim and am trying to install them for AutoX use. They are 2" strap, pushbutton, clip-in, dual tail strap models.
According to the diagram on the Soloracer site, I should use D and E anchor points for the rear. They are the rear seat lap belt anchor points. The two anchor points (per side) in the C-post are too far off to the side and too far away.
For the lapbelt, I'm using the rear seat mounting bolt on the tunnel side. I'm no 6 footer, so an eyebolt works for me. Taller guys will have to bolt it in because the seat slider interferes.
For the B-post side of the lapbelt I have two choices. Right now I'm using the anchor point at the bottom of the OEM seat belt retractor. I drilled a hole for the eyebolt in the plastic cover and am satisfied with how it looks.:) I wanted to use the anchor point just below it where the seat belt end is attatched to the rocker panel, but my eyebolt wasn't long enough. Subaru uses a longer bolt at this location with a spacer so that it doesn't contact the brake lines. I didn't want to leave the spacer out, and mess up those lines.
EXTRA: The stock seat belt is made by Takata! :) Too bad they aren't green from the factory.
Also, eyebolts kick ass! I'm going to put them everywhere. I already have a wagon cargo net hanging between the rear shoulder points.:)
EDIT: I guess I could have saved a lot of time by going to Scoobymods first. [url]http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=140&highlight=anchor[/url]
You can clip into the stock B-post lapbelt anchor.
According to the diagram on the Soloracer site, I should use D and E anchor points for the rear. They are the rear seat lap belt anchor points. The two anchor points (per side) in the C-post are too far off to the side and too far away.
For the lapbelt, I'm using the rear seat mounting bolt on the tunnel side. I'm no 6 footer, so an eyebolt works for me. Taller guys will have to bolt it in because the seat slider interferes.
For the B-post side of the lapbelt I have two choices. Right now I'm using the anchor point at the bottom of the OEM seat belt retractor. I drilled a hole for the eyebolt in the plastic cover and am satisfied with how it looks.:) I wanted to use the anchor point just below it where the seat belt end is attatched to the rocker panel, but my eyebolt wasn't long enough. Subaru uses a longer bolt at this location with a spacer so that it doesn't contact the brake lines. I didn't want to leave the spacer out, and mess up those lines.
EXTRA: The stock seat belt is made by Takata! :) Too bad they aren't green from the factory.
Also, eyebolts kick ass! I'm going to put them everywhere. I already have a wagon cargo net hanging between the rear shoulder points.:)
EDIT: I guess I could have saved a lot of time by going to Scoobymods first. [url]http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=140&highlight=anchor[/url]
You can clip into the stock B-post lapbelt anchor.
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