| obsrules | 06-22-2003 06:26 PM |
Why is Audi not in WRC anymore
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Hi! I was going through some posts on VWVortex and someone said that Audi doesn't compete in WRC events because they were being forced to stop putting Quattro AWD in their rally cars because Quattro was too much of an unfair advantage. Does anyone know if this is true or what the real reason is?
Thanks
Thanks
| iceweazel | 06-22-2003 07:10 PM |
No, that arguement applies to the touring cars and old Firehawk and TransAm cars, but not rally.
At the end of Group B, Group S was coming. unlimited everything. Audi was growing very concerned over costs. Lancia had spent so much to beat them in the last years that they couldn't afford to keep up. It was at that time purely cost savings. I lost my job at Motorsport Gmbh due to this.
They moved into track racing for a number of years and have stayed there. None of their cars makes a particularly great rally car anymore. Plus the sub-brands are all racing (VW, Seat, Skoda) and Audi has moved into a more upper-crust form of
racing and has no wish to compete against itself.
At the end of Group B, Group S was coming. unlimited everything. Audi was growing very concerned over costs. Lancia had spent so much to beat them in the last years that they couldn't afford to keep up. It was at that time purely cost savings. I lost my job at Motorsport Gmbh due to this.
They moved into track racing for a number of years and have stayed there. None of their cars makes a particularly great rally car anymore. Plus the sub-brands are all racing (VW, Seat, Skoda) and Audi has moved into a more upper-crust form of
racing and has no wish to compete against itself.
| arubus | 06-22-2003 10:11 PM |
I've also heard from my brother, who is an Audi enthusiast that drives an S4, that Audi got out of the sport once the power restrictions started to come into effect for safety reasons.
its safer to run at 90mph near a cliffs edge than 120mph I suppose...but anywho, Audi thought it was crummy and they had been winning for a number of years and just bowed out.
Now this is heresay, but I have heard this from a number of people.
its safer to run at 90mph near a cliffs edge than 120mph I suppose...but anywho, Audi thought it was crummy and they had been winning for a number of years and just bowed out.
Now this is heresay, but I have heard this from a number of people.
| A_Train | 06-22-2003 11:09 PM |
With Skoda running WRC, there isn't much need for VW-Audi to field another car under a different make.
| nKoan | 06-23-2003 02:41 AM |
From what I have picked up on the wrc.com forums is that Audi blew the competition away with the first awd turbo rally car. Shortly after, other companies started introducing awd turbo's into Group B (like Lancia and Peugeot) and the Audi was no longer dominating.
Along with the death of Group B and the lack of significant edge and rising costs, Audi decided to just leave the sport entirely.
And as others have mentioned, the VW group competes under Seat (until a few years ago) and Skoda.
Along with the death of Group B and the lack of significant edge and rising costs, Audi decided to just leave the sport entirely.
And as others have mentioned, the VW group competes under Seat (until a few years ago) and Skoda.
| fengshui-fu | 06-23-2003 01:47 PM |
As soon as the Peugeot 205 T16 came out, the Audi S1 was irrelevant. Peugeot won that year and the last year of group B, I believe. Although the Lancia Delta S4 probably would have brought Toivonen to victory if he hadn't had his accident. It was nice that Audi proved AWD in the competitive arena, but their AWD system today is nothing special (torsen + electronic braking), compared to some of the newer multiplate clutch systems (Skyline GTR and EVO AYC).
As Jeremy Clarkson said once before, although there are many cars like it today, back then it was in a class of its own. That is until Peugeot and Lancia started dropping coin and kicking butt.
chris
As Jeremy Clarkson said once before, although there are many cars like it today, back then it was in a class of its own. That is until Peugeot and Lancia started dropping coin and kicking butt.
chris
| Rattler | 06-23-2003 03:23 PM |
For a good history lesson on rally, watch Duke's "Too Fast To Race". Lots of good stuff and video clips in it.
| fengshui-fu | 06-23-2003 03:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Rattler [/i]
[B]For a good history lesson on rally, watch Duke's "Too Fast To Race". Lots of good stuff and video clips in it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Duke needs to get on the ball and make some of those great movies into DVDs. My VCR is shot.
chris
[B]For a good history lesson on rally, watch Duke's "Too Fast To Race". Lots of good stuff and video clips in it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Duke needs to get on the ball and make some of those great movies into DVDs. My VCR is shot.
chris
| Coati | 06-23-2003 07:10 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by iceweazel [/i]
[B]
None of their cars makes a particularly great rally car anymore. Plus the sub-brands are all racing (VW, Seat, Skoda) and Audi has moved into a more upper-crust form of
racing and has no wish to compete against itself. [/B][/QUOTE]
There was a TT at Rim Of The World this year and it won its class. When the drivers were on the podium, they mentioned they were using a KW suspension that was intended for use at the Acropolis Rally:eek: so evidently someone somewhere at least thought of entering a TT in some class (production?) in Athens.:confused:
[B]
None of their cars makes a particularly great rally car anymore. Plus the sub-brands are all racing (VW, Seat, Skoda) and Audi has moved into a more upper-crust form of
racing and has no wish to compete against itself. [/B][/QUOTE]
There was a TT at Rim Of The World this year and it won its class. When the drivers were on the podium, they mentioned they were using a KW suspension that was intended for use at the Acropolis Rally:eek: so evidently someone somewhere at least thought of entering a TT in some class (production?) in Athens.:confused:
| jprowland | 06-23-2003 07:26 PM |
Audi is STILL running commercials with rally video footage from their days of dominance, celebrating the superiority of "Quattro." Why should they pay for more rally involvement when they can just pull some video off the shelf? Same thing with Hyundai in the US, after several consecutive championships, you pull out when the stakes are raised and you start becoming uncompetitive.
--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Co-driver, #896 Audi 4000 Quattro turbo, Open
Visit my boring web page: [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url]
--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Co-driver, #896 Audi 4000 Quattro turbo, Open
Visit my boring web page: [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url]
| Rattler | 06-23-2003 07:59 PM |
Probably the same TT that was at Sno*Drift too.
| jprowland | 06-23-2003 08:06 PM |
There was a TT in PGT at STPR, I assume it was the same car (haven't been paying enough attention).
Sorry for all the acronyms :)
--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Co-driver, #896 Audi 4000 Quattro turbo, Open
Visit my boring web page: [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url]
Sorry for all the acronyms :)
--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Co-driver, #896 Audi 4000 Quattro turbo, Open
Visit my boring web page: [url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland[/url]
| Jaxx | 06-24-2003 10:49 AM |
oddly enough i heard a audi -rally inspired- comerical on the radio the other day ..talked about first to have awd .. "come on in for rally days"
| elgorey | 06-25-2003 08:11 AM |
I have always been bothered by the misinformation and misconceptions about Audi's 4wd entries into Rallying. If you look at the actual history, it Audi did not step in and dominate or "stand the world on its head" like the commercials tell you. Its first year, 1980, the Quattro only won 2 rallies. In 1982 after 2 years of development, Audi still did not win the driver's championship (Walter Rohl did). In 1983 Lancia won the constructors championship (audi did win the driver champ)
1984 audi won both titles, but was not competitive in 1985. In 86 of course group B was cancelled after Henri Tiovonen's death and Audi pulled out of rallying.
while the car was no doubt a huge step forward and an amazing car, I just dont think it dominated to the level that people think it did.
1984 audi won both titles, but was not competitive in 1985. In 86 of course group B was cancelled after Henri Tiovonen's death and Audi pulled out of rallying.
while the car was no doubt a huge step forward and an amazing car, I just dont think it dominated to the level that people think it did.
| Osgood30 | 06-25-2003 12:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]I have always been bothered by the misinformation and misconceptions about Audi's 4wd entries into Rallying. If you look at the actual history, it Audi did not step in and dominate or "stand the world on its head" like the commercials tell you. Its first year, 1980, the Quattro only won 2 rallies. In 1982 after 2 years of development, Audi still did not win the driver's championship (Walter Rohl did). In 1983 Lancia won the constructors championship (audi did win the driver champ)
1984 audi won both titles, but was not competitive in 1985. In 86 of course group B was cancelled after Henri Tiovonen's death and Audi pulled out of rallying.
while the car was no doubt a huge step forward and an amazing car, I just dont think it dominated to the level that people think it did. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree, and I also can't stand when they are running some luxury A8 commercial and referring to some rally inspired stuff, please!!
[B]I have always been bothered by the misinformation and misconceptions about Audi's 4wd entries into Rallying. If you look at the actual history, it Audi did not step in and dominate or "stand the world on its head" like the commercials tell you. Its first year, 1980, the Quattro only won 2 rallies. In 1982 after 2 years of development, Audi still did not win the driver's championship (Walter Rohl did). In 1983 Lancia won the constructors championship (audi did win the driver champ)
1984 audi won both titles, but was not competitive in 1985. In 86 of course group B was cancelled after Henri Tiovonen's death and Audi pulled out of rallying.
while the car was no doubt a huge step forward and an amazing car, I just dont think it dominated to the level that people think it did. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree, and I also can't stand when they are running some luxury A8 commercial and referring to some rally inspired stuff, please!!
| fengshui-fu | 06-25-2003 01:37 PM |
Its the old saying: "Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday" But to Audi/VAG its "Race in 1980s, Over- and Mis-Advertise this fact, Sell on Monday"
Front engine AWD is nice, but Mid engine AWD romped it again and again.
chris
Front engine AWD is nice, but Mid engine AWD romped it again and again.
chris
| Rattler | 06-25-2003 01:45 PM |
They also dominated Pikes Peak for a couple years too.
| ANZAC_1915 | 06-25-2003 04:58 PM |
Michele Mouton rules.
| Rattler | 06-25-2003 05:07 PM |
She is the one in charge of Michelin's Race Of Champions on the Canary Islands after the rally season is done.
| travmn | 06-25-2003 08:47 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Glenn Wallace [/i]
[B]Michele Mouton rules. [/B][/QUOTE]
agreed...
i'm surprised that while the focus has been on audi's use of rally in advertisements, don't forget they're starting to use more of their le mans success in advertising (seen one strange commercial where they referred to their le mans domination).
in essence, it seems like audi is pulling the "been there, done that" routine with rally.
[B]Michele Mouton rules. [/B][/QUOTE]
agreed...
i'm surprised that while the focus has been on audi's use of rally in advertisements, don't forget they're starting to use more of their le mans success in advertising (seen one strange commercial where they referred to their le mans domination).
in essence, it seems like audi is pulling the "been there, done that" routine with rally.
| randy zimmer | 06-26-2003 02:24 PM |
is all about the money
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�
Corporations have a hard time justifying spending money to beat itself.
In the VW hierarchy, Skoda is given the task of rally. Audi got the budget to race when Porsche pulled out of distance events and then pulled out to give Bentley the sport. (Porsche is a relative to VW).
The Brits never figured this out and Minis raced against Healeys which raced against Austins as the divisions that were aquired into BMC and Leyland refused to cooperate and ran as independantly as they had before - and then went totally belly-up.
Bringing up why Audi did what they did in the 80's isunimportant as marketing plans last 5 years at best.
rz
In the VW hierarchy, Skoda is given the task of rally. Audi got the budget to race when Porsche pulled out of distance events and then pulled out to give Bentley the sport. (Porsche is a relative to VW).
The Brits never figured this out and Minis raced against Healeys which raced against Austins as the divisions that were aquired into BMC and Leyland refused to cooperate and ran as independantly as they had before - and then went totally belly-up.
Bringing up why Audi did what they did in the 80's isunimportant as marketing plans last 5 years at best.
rz
| elgorey | 06-26-2003 02:38 PM |
Re: is all about the money
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by randy zimmer [/i]
[B]Corporations have a hard time justifying spending money to beat itself.[/quote]
which is why it is strange to see Citroen and Pug in WRC.
[quote]In the VW hierarchy, Skoda is given the task of rally. Audi got the budget to race when Porsche pulled out of distance events and then pulled out to give Bentley the sport. (Porsche is a relative to VW).
[/QUOTE]
Porsche is not part of Volkswagen at all. They have had a working relationship over the years (914, 924, and now the Cayenne) but are not tied to one another, and AFAIK have little to no controlling interest in one another.
VAG =
Audi -- bought from Daimler-Benz in 1964-1966
SEAT -- majority owned since 1986
Skoda -- bought in 1991
Bentley -- bought in 1998 from Vickers along with Rolls-Royce
Bugatti -- name bought in 1998
Lamborghini -- bought in 1998
on a side note, apparently Michele Mouton's daughter posts occasionally here on the board (or someone claiming to be)
[B]Corporations have a hard time justifying spending money to beat itself.[/quote]
which is why it is strange to see Citroen and Pug in WRC.
[quote]In the VW hierarchy, Skoda is given the task of rally. Audi got the budget to race when Porsche pulled out of distance events and then pulled out to give Bentley the sport. (Porsche is a relative to VW).
[/QUOTE]
Porsche is not part of Volkswagen at all. They have had a working relationship over the years (914, 924, and now the Cayenne) but are not tied to one another, and AFAIK have little to no controlling interest in one another.
VAG =
Audi -- bought from Daimler-Benz in 1964-1966
SEAT -- majority owned since 1986
Skoda -- bought in 1991
Bentley -- bought in 1998 from Vickers along with Rolls-Royce
Bugatti -- name bought in 1998
Lamborghini -- bought in 1998
on a side note, apparently Michele Mouton's daughter posts occasionally here on the board (or someone claiming to be)
| ShockWave | 06-26-2003 02:53 PM |
Actually, there was a rule change in 1979 to allow AWD cars to compete. Up until '79 only front or rear wheel drive cars were legal in rallying. Audi didn't just show up with one and change the world, though they do get credit for convincing everyone it was the way to go.
Audi also wasn't the first ones to try it. The first person I know of who tried to create an AWD rally car was none other than the legendary John Cooper. He apparently fabricated an AWD prototype Mini (anyone's guess as to how) and tested with it. Unfortunately the test nearly killed him, putting him in the hospital for some time and putting the idea of an AWD rally car on ice for many years.
You think Audi had a ground shattering idea, could you imagine what would have happened to rallying if Cooper had gotten the prototype to work and showed up with an AWD Mini back in the sixties!
Audi also wasn't the first ones to try it. The first person I know of who tried to create an AWD rally car was none other than the legendary John Cooper. He apparently fabricated an AWD prototype Mini (anyone's guess as to how) and tested with it. Unfortunately the test nearly killed him, putting him in the hospital for some time and putting the idea of an AWD rally car on ice for many years.
You think Audi had a ground shattering idea, could you imagine what would have happened to rallying if Cooper had gotten the prototype to work and showed up with an AWD Mini back in the sixties!
| randy zimmer | 06-26-2003 09:32 PM |
related
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�
When I said related, I meant RELATED...
"Yet, the modern day success of the company is entirely due to his son, �Ferry� Porsche. When his father died in 1951, Ferry and his sister, Louise Piech (who is the wife of Dr Ferdinand Piech, the former VW Group Chief Executive) took over the firm. By acting as the design and development centre for VW, Porsche was able to earn a nice commission that helped to make it into a very profitable business. The 356 model gave Porsche its first step into the sports car scene, but it was the 912 and then 911 line-up that opened the door to outstanding success. The VW link has existed throughout the company�s history, but it has been carried out in a totally independent fashion and invariably to Porsche�s benefit."
from
[url]http://www.autoindex.org/maker.plt?no=1428[/url]
---
The mini was called the Twinni (sp?) and had two complete drivetrains, one front, one back. There were many cars built using the mini subframe in the rear to create a mid-engined car.
rz
"Yet, the modern day success of the company is entirely due to his son, �Ferry� Porsche. When his father died in 1951, Ferry and his sister, Louise Piech (who is the wife of Dr Ferdinand Piech, the former VW Group Chief Executive) took over the firm. By acting as the design and development centre for VW, Porsche was able to earn a nice commission that helped to make it into a very profitable business. The 356 model gave Porsche its first step into the sports car scene, but it was the 912 and then 911 line-up that opened the door to outstanding success. The VW link has existed throughout the company�s history, but it has been carried out in a totally independent fashion and invariably to Porsche�s benefit."
from
[url]http://www.autoindex.org/maker.plt?no=1428[/url]
---
The mini was called the Twinni (sp?) and had two complete drivetrains, one front, one back. There were many cars built using the mini subframe in the rear to create a mid-engined car.
rz
| Rattler | 06-27-2003 01:22 AM |
Porsche>Lambo, Ferrari=My opinion
The 911 bodystyle has always had a sweet spot with me. I would take a 959 over an Enzo or Bull-car any day. 356s are gorgeous. I spot one around here every now and then and I about have to pull over to gasp at it. Probably original owner too. That car is still resembling the original. Not too many cany boast that after that many years.
If I won the lottery tomorrow:
Porsche 959 or GT2.
Lancia Stratos(probably the hardest of them to get) I guess I could put up with the Integrale's turbo+xupercharger noise though.
Audi RS6 - Got to have a daily driver! Hell, even an S4 Avant would work.
The 911 bodystyle has always had a sweet spot with me. I would take a 959 over an Enzo or Bull-car any day. 356s are gorgeous. I spot one around here every now and then and I about have to pull over to gasp at it. Probably original owner too. That car is still resembling the original. Not too many cany boast that after that many years.
If I won the lottery tomorrow:
Porsche 959 or GT2.
Lancia Stratos(probably the hardest of them to get) I guess I could put up with the Integrale's turbo+xupercharger noise though.
Audi RS6 - Got to have a daily driver! Hell, even an S4 Avant would work.
| Thug | 06-27-2003 04:24 PM |
It's much simpler than all this whoha. It's simply not their niche market. Audi's are luxury cars.
| Rattler | 06-27-2003 06:56 PM |
I recall hearing radio ads a couple months ago with Rod Millen talking about how nice the Audi handled.
| johnfelstead | 06-27-2003 09:07 PM |
the mini was a twini, it had an engine in the front and back. That car still exists, i have seen it in the flesh. :D
[url]http://www.mibv.com/Mini/Misc/TwiniMini/[/url]
[IMG]http://www.mibv.com/Mini/Misc/TwiniMini/Twiniminiplan.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://www.mibv.com/Mini/Misc/TwiniMini/[/url]
[IMG]http://www.mibv.com/Mini/Misc/TwiniMini/Twiniminiplan.jpg[/IMG]
| OnTheGas | 06-30-2003 12:07 PM |
Weight
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My understanding of Audi pulling out of rally is that Audi was having to drop too much money trying to overcome being too heavy. In particular, in group B, they were disadvantaged by being too nose heavy since they ran one of the only front engined cars, versus the wild mid-engined awd cars (which liberal rules allowed). Is this true?
Also, I'm curious... was the Quattro engine mounted in-line or transverse?
Also, I'm curious... was the Quattro engine mounted in-line or transverse?
| elgorey | 06-30-2003 12:51 PM |
Re: related
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�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by randy zimmer [/i]
[B]When I said related, I meant RELATED... [/B][/QUOTE]
yes, but they still arent the same company, and wouldnt be "spending money to beat themselves"
which is why
"Audi got the budget to race when Porsche pulled out of distance events" just isnt correct. Porsche withdraw from prototype racing has little to do with Audi.
Too bad though, I sure would like to see Porsche back with prototypes. The GT class (ie- Spec 911) is getting boring!
[B]When I said related, I meant RELATED... [/B][/QUOTE]
yes, but they still arent the same company, and wouldnt be "spending money to beat themselves"
which is why
"Audi got the budget to race when Porsche pulled out of distance events" just isnt correct. Porsche withdraw from prototype racing has little to do with Audi.
Too bad though, I sure would like to see Porsche back with prototypes. The GT class (ie- Spec 911) is getting boring!
| elgorey | 06-30-2003 12:51 PM |
Re: related
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by randy zimmer [/i]
[B]When I said related, I meant RELATED... [/B][/QUOTE]
yes, but they still arent the same company, and wouldnt be "spending money to beat themselves"
which is why
"Audi got the budget to race when Porsche pulled out of distance events" just isnt correct. Porsche withdraw from prototype racing has little to do with VW.
Too bad though, I sure would like to see Porsche back with prototypes. The GT class (ie- Spec 911) is getting boring!
[B]When I said related, I meant RELATED... [/B][/QUOTE]
yes, but they still arent the same company, and wouldnt be "spending money to beat themselves"
which is why
"Audi got the budget to race when Porsche pulled out of distance events" just isnt correct. Porsche withdraw from prototype racing has little to do with VW.
Too bad though, I sure would like to see Porsche back with prototypes. The GT class (ie- Spec 911) is getting boring!
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