masiocinterior: 2005 SCCA National RallyX Rules part 1

MarkA

01-26-2005 04:34 PM

2005 SCCA National RallyX Rules
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[url]http://www.scca.org/_filelibrary/File/2005rallycrossrules.pdf[/url]

Discussion in progress here: [url]http://www.specialstage.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=248&topic_id=513&mesg_id=513&page=[/url]

thechickencow

01-26-2005 04:52 PM

The classing is interesting, but seems fairly logical. I think there's a few loopholes there, but oh well. My G5 car doesn't meet class rules for RP2, but the catchall statement puts me there against people with just mildly modified cars.

Jay

BlackAndBlue

01-26-2005 05:16 PM

so crank pulleys put you in open?

Got Pink?

01-26-2005 06:33 PM

The rules are not well aligned with Solo2 rules at all! How about a dot tire or street tire open class that would be fine for everyone with street cars that don't want to buy rally tires/wheels/brakes to be competitive. With my STi I am basically screwed since I am autoxing STU/ESP and minor mods put me to Rally prepared which can be raced by any legal real rally cars except open class ones and they have rally tires and wheels and brakes that allow fitting 15/16s. For me to be competitive there i would need to swap my brembos out and get wrx brakes so I could fit a smaller than 17 rim since there are no 17 dirt rally tires available.

Nate

fliz	01-26-2005 07:16 PM

I'd think a good snow tire would work almost as well as a rally tire.

Looks like my ESP/SM car goes straight to RM4.

I think it's interesting that replacing your rotors with something other than stock (say a cheaper brand, like Carbotech) puts you right in Rally Prepared.

Now we just need to find somebody to host some events in Milwaukee.

P.S. Jay, what rules don't you get in Rally Prepared?

thechickencow

01-26-2005 07:39 PM

I think in a rallycross snow tires aren't that much worse than rally tires. Less durable, yes, but performance wise probably not earth shattering - easily overcame by good driving.

I hope the rotor rule just applies to size.

I'd make the argument that NO car goes into Open other than a car that's a hybrid of some sort. All cars fit either G2, G5, or Open no matter the mods (except for restrictors), so they'd all fit into RM2/4.

I "get" all the rules, its just there are loopholes. As they say on SS, Kumho/Falken rally tires are supposedly either DOT approved, or going to be, which would mean they're legal for stock class if you read the rules to the letter.

By the way, I think aligning the rally classes with autox is bad at this point. I've yet to see competition that somebody who's a good driver thats willing to roll their car can't win.

fliz	01-26-2005 07:50 PM

I don't speak so that other's can understand me...I meant what rules in RP doesn't your Eclipse meet?

ANZAC_1915

01-26-2005 07:55 PM

[QUOTE=fliz]I'd think a good snow tire would work almost as well as a rally tire.
[/QUOTE]

Err, no.

And there is at least one DOT approved tire that just happens to be a rally tire. :devil: Stock class, you are mine.

Those classes suck. They make no sense. The rally street class should allow smaller diameter brake rotors.

No gate penalty?

30 secs for moving cones at/after the finish?

omahasubaru

01-26-2005 07:58 PM

You guys whine too much.

I'm sure the first set of national Solo II rules needed some work over 50 years ago, but that's just the way it is.

No reason that solo II rules should be similar. Solo II isn't close to what was Pro/Club rally, nor is it even close to Club Racing.

I think the classes make perfect sense.

thechickencow

01-26-2005 07:59 PM

[QUOTE=fliz]I don't speak so that other's can understand me...I meant what rules in RP doesn't your Eclipse meet?[/QUOTE]

Oh great communicator! :)

If you use the rule that if it doesn't say it, it isn't legal:
its not gonna be legal to be stripped, seam welded, etc in that class. Engine work doesn't specifically say its legal, i've got a different tranny than stock, etc. All of that stuff is covered by the disclaimer though, since my car meets the "legal for stage rally competition".

I'm not whining, just discussing.

I think the classes are fine other than the possible mismatches between full prep rally cars and mild modded street cars in RP2/4. Combining G2/5 type cars together is cool, the power advantage of a G5 car is usually outweighed by the lightness/handling of a G2 car, especially on a rallyx course.

Jay

bjorn240

01-26-2005 09:08 PM

I'm terribly confused. What corresponds to E Street Prepared Ladies? It looks an awful lot like Solo (aka "Trophies for everyone!").

Too many classes. How about

2WD Stock
2WD Modified
2WD Rally
4WD Stock
4WD Modified
4WD Rally
Experimental

Let's make sure that people worry about getting faster, by pushing themselves against a large number of competitors, not ensuring everyone a plaque.

- Christian

Got Pink?

01-26-2005 11:03 PM

akuhner

01-26-2005 11:15 PM

Quoting myself:
[QUOTE]I believe that only 4 classes are necessary:

Stock 2WD
Modified 2WD
Stock 4WD
Modified 4WD

The Solo II classes are a complete joke - they are designed around people who would rather whine about rules and technicalities than admit that not everyone can win. Sure, it's not fun when some guy shows up with a WRX he dumped $20,000 into that puts down 300whp, but if he wins, there's a good chance that he is a good driver. And, not everything in life is fair - I don't have a WRX or $20k to dump into it, but that doesn't make it unfair that he is in the Modified 4WD class with me. I have rally tires, coilovers, intake and exhaust, so I can't compete with 300whp if it's driven well. Not all cars are going to be competitive, nor should they be - that's another thing Solo II won't accept. It's perfectly fair if you bought a car and found that it's not competitive in your Solo II class, if you really care you should have done the research in advance, or just bought the car that dominates the class.

SCCA Rally classes were decent - P, G2, G5, PGT, Grp N, Open. 6 winners at every event is plenty (well, 5 since nobody runs P!).

Alex "not everyone is a winnar" Kuhner[/QUOTE]

Stop whining, Solo II classes suck. You are screwed in your STi because you are lightly modded and someone could show up with a rally car and be in your class? So what? Your STi is still more powerful and better suited to rally-x than 75% of rally cars out there. If you are a good driver it won't matter if they show up with a WRC car. I've beaten WRX and EVO fully built rally cars in my 2.5RS at a rally-x site that's more like a rally sprint... and I'm not that good.

Alex

akuhner

01-26-2005 11:25 PM

[QUOTE]2. Engines are free but must be internal combustion.[/QUOTE]
That's amusing. What are they trying to avoid, jet engines? Or are they anti-hybrid?

MarkA

01-26-2005 11:57 PM

Damnit! They banned my solar powered RallyX car before I even got it started!

:lol: :rolleyes: ;)

bjorn240

01-27-2005 09:15 AM

Presumably they're just trying to outlaw my Cugnot steam car:

[IMG]http://inventors.about.com/library/graphics/cugnot.jpg[/IMG]

Damn.

Christian "Pssshhhht" Edstrom

KC	01-27-2005 10:17 AM

[QUOTE=bjorn240]I'm terribly confused. What corresponds to E Street Prepared Ladies? It looks an awful lot like Solo (aka "Trophies for everyone!").

Too many classes. How about

2WD Stock
2WD Modified
2WD Rally
4WD Stock
4WD Modified
4WD Rally
Experimental

Let's make sure that people worry about getting faster, by pushing themselves against a large number of competitors, not ensuring everyone a plaque.

- Christian[/QUOTE]
Comparing what you said about 'Too Many Classes' (My take on it all.. ie: IMHO)

2WD Stock = Front Wheel Drive Street Stock 2 wheel drive-SSF
2WD Modified = Rally Street Front Wheel Drive-RSF
2WD Rally = Rally Prepared Two Wheel Drive-RP2 (Both Front/Rear)
4WD Stock = All Wheel Drive Street Stock-SSA
4WD Modified = Rally Street All Wheel Drive-RSA
4WD Rally = Rally Prepared All Wheel Drive-RP4

All they did was add 4 more classes.. 2 for for RWD cars for 'Stock' and 'Street' by taking them out of a combined class and 2 for the Open class (for the tube frame Circuit Rally cars)

I'm not a regular Rally-X guy (too far away for me to make a season/serious run at) but having just two more classes based on driveline only isn't that bad an Idea... educate me why 'street' FWD and RWD should be in the same class (other than fully prepped and knowledgeable Rally cars/drivers)?

If the program grows like they hope it will (and has over the years) looking forward... I don't think it's bad to have them separated like this. If a few years down the road, you don't see any growth in the RWD class or FWD class... merge them. No harm starting out like this now if they're anticipating growth.. is there?

greg donovan

01-27-2005 11:49 AM

i drove a 2.2 legacy in G5P in MN which meant i used rally tires and took my backseat and trunk lining out.

i got several top 10 out 25-30 competitors and beat many rally cars.

and my brother's all season tired ej18 inmpreza has beat a GN rally car. it is all about course layout.

bjorn240

01-27-2005 11:51 AM

[QUOTE=KC]If a few years down the road, you don't see any growth in the RWD class or FWD class... merge them. No harm starting out like this now if they're anticipating growth.. is there?[/QUOTE]

So, build them anticipating growth, and stunting competition now, and then if they don't grow, merge them? Why not just start out with 2WD and split it if it becomes necessary?

In order to foster competition, you should have the absolute minimum number of classes possible. Only where there is concrete evidence of a significant advantage should there be a differentiation.

For instance, in rally 4wd proved to be an almost insurmountable advantage. So a separate class for 4wd is needed in rally. The same is probably true in RallyX, so I don't disagree with separating 2wd from 4wd. Additionally, there seems to be a clear difference in performance between rally tires and non-rally tires, so those may need to be segregated.

Now, let's look at driveline configuration. Looking at RallyX results, I don't see any concrete evidence at present that FWD is massively better than RWD or vice versa. That is, take me in a Volvo 142, put Lauchlin O'Sullivan in a 1.8T Golf and have us run a run. Lauchlin will win by 10 seconds or more.
Now have us swap cars. Lauchlin will win by 10 seconds or more. Ergo, the difference in driver vastly outweighs the performance differences in the cars.

In short, many classes worse. Fewer classes better. Unless there is a compelling, demonstrative performance difference between cars, keep one class. I'll end with an example.

I've listed, as they came to mind, the following 2WD cars. List them in the order they would finish, assuming identical drivers. I'll posit that the listing will not show a signifiant weighting toward one drivetrain configuration winning:

Datsun 510
Volvo 240 Turbo
Infiniti G35
Mazda Miata
Mazda RX7 R1
VW Golf 1.8t
Nissan 240SX
Nissan Sentra SE-R
Saab 900 Turbo
Dodge Neon
Honda Civic Si
1972 Porsche 911
BMW 325i

KC	01-27-2005 12:23 PM

[QUOTE=bjorn240]So, build them anticipating growth, and stunting competition now, and then if they don't grow, merge them? Why not just start out with 2WD and split it if it becomes necessary?[/QUOTE]

I guess it comes down to damned if you do, damned if you don't.

They split them now, people complain.
They split them later, people will complain. It a certanty.

It's best to set the foundation now for classes and rules so changes will be lessened down the road. It's called 'stability'. It's much easier to consolidate classes down the road than make new ones.

Also, you can now build a RWD car in your class (again... we're talking about streetish.. not rally prepped+ so the costs aren't still that high) and you can build your FWD car for that class. The 'rally cars' 2WD class are lumped together. Again.. no big deal there because then it does come down to driver more than equipment as most of them are almost on the same level driver/prep.

Remember.. there were no 'cohesive rules' across the country. Now, there are. Give it a chance? I see this as 'Rally-x year one'. What happened in the past was left up to the region, no? Different regions did things differently. With one set of rules... it's 'a new beginning'.

And about the list of cars winning. Even given same drivers, there's no way I can give you an answer to that as much as you can't give a definitive answer either. It's a loaded question. Rally-x is much different than auto-x and it depends on surface conditions and type of course (open? tight?) that any given car can win/place/show. However, I'd put good $$ on RWD, as a whole, being slower than FWD, given same driver (and a good e-brake) ;)

--kC

greg donovan

01-27-2005 12:42 PM

here is an updated list of vehicle classifications:

[url]http://www.scca-lol.org/rally/rallyx/05rallycross_classes.pdf[/url]

i was told by mark utecht, the cendiv rallyx steward, that the changes to the Rally prepared classes will be national, the new sections are 12 and 13. section 14 is also new but right now is only in effect in the land o'lakes region allows seam welding in RP. as far as i know he is trying to get seam welding in RP for the national rules.

12. reads this way:

Any mechanical limited slip differential may be used that
fits the unmodified stock housing. Welded and viscous
units are allowed. Any differential that has any means of
external control (air locker, electronic control) is prohibited
unless fitted stock. Any stock externally controlled
differential must remain unmodified.

13 reads this way:

All internal trim except the dash may be removed or
replaced. Any sharp edges near the driver's body
exposed by trim removal must be covered by some
means to prevent driver injury. The dash may be
modified but only to the extent to accommodate the roll
cage, gauges or other allowed modifications.

Mark is currently on his way to Sno*Drift so we will have to wait to ask him more questions next week.

bjorn240

01-27-2005 12:53 PM

[QUOTE=KC]It's much easier to consolidate classes down the road than make new ones.[/QUOTE]

Do you base this on the absolute paucity of classes you see in AutoX, Rally, roadracing, or ? Seems to me, there are too many classes in every racing series. Quick -- which do you prefer - DSR, CSR, or Spec Racer? Oh, you don't give a rats ass? Me neither.

Once a class is established, you'll have a hell of a time getting rid of it. Because with too many classes, slow chaps in sensible slacks get used to bringing home a plaque to the wife. And they will protest any possible realignment which might result in fewer trophies on their mantle to within an inch of their life. This is what makes the runoffs and the annual banquet such dreadful bores.

In fact, I take it all back.

Make it:

2WD no mods non-rally tires
2WD free mods rally tires
4WD no mods non-rally tires
4WD free mods rally tires

If you can afford new suspenders and a downpipe, you can afford some used K4s or ZE70s.

- Christian

greg donovan

01-27-2005 01:00 PM

the open classes are for cars w/engine swaps and such. like a CRX w/an integra motor.

an open class rally car will still be in RP due to the exemption put in place by section 10 of the RP rules.

and as far as the brakes stock has always meant oem type in the past so i would assume that a set of cheap rotors of the same size and type as OEM would be OK.

greg donovan

01-27-2005 01:03 PM

[QUOTE=bjorn240]
If you can afford new suspenders and a downpipe, you can afford some used K4s or ZE70s.

- Christian[/QUOTE]

and those used rally tires will be much more effective on a rallyx course than power mods ever will be.

a stock car w/rally tires will be way faster than a modded car w/street tires.

greg donovan

01-27-2005 01:18 PM

[QUOTE=Got Pink?]The rules are not well aligned with Solo2 rules at all! How about a dot tire or street tire open class that would be fine for everyone with street cars that don't want to buy rally tires/wheels/brakes to be competitive. With my STi I am basically screwed since I am autoxing STU/ESP and minor mods put me to Rally prepared which can be raced by any legal real rally cars except open class ones and they have rally tires and wheels and brakes that allow fitting 15/16s. For me to be competitive there i would need to swap my brembos out and get wrx brakes so I could fit a smaller than 17 rim since there are no 17 dirt rally tires available.

Nate[/QUOTE]

a stock STi w/hakkas will be a hard to beat car in rallyx. in fact it is. mark utecht preffers to drive that over his GN car at most rallyxs and is very hard to beat in the STi. and it has stock brakes and 17s. the only people that comes close is steve gingras in his open class WRX w/ a 4.44 final. and jim cox w/his 04 open class S-10 rally truck w/a SBC 350 in it.

all rally cars are in RP regardless of actuall rally class they compete in.

that is where i will be w/my stock legacy w/no interior and rally tires. all the cars i used to compete against under the old classes will be there too in RP2.

KC	01-27-2005 01:24 PM

[QUOTE=bjorn240]And they will protest any possible realignment which might result in fewer trophies on their mantle to within an inch of their life. [/QUOTE]

Why should you care what happens to someone else in a different class?

So what if someone walks home with a $1 plaque/trophy in a different class? It's just a different baseline to compete against. RWD compare/compete against other RWD cars. FWD compare/comete against other FWD. Does this mean the win for the RWD is any less deserved from FWD? Or someone from FWD's win is any less/better than RWD?

Someone's gonna walk home with one anyway in the class they got split off from... does that minimize THEIR achievement?

I understand what you say.. but follow me for a second...

In a class where you currently have, say, 10 cars...where on any given sunday either could win if they were combined.

There's now the possibility for 7 FWD/3 RWD split where there's now 2 winners instead of one and RWD has a better shot of a trophy. I get your point in that regard. But why is that such a one of contention? Even tho that split has occured, does that make the winners any less drivers? Those that run JUST for the trohpy, I've found out over time, don't have lasting power and are missing the whole point... which is fun in cars, and the whole social aspect of the time you're there (which is a very similar community to auto-x).

So again... why does it matter if someone not in your class wins a trophy? Seems kinda shallow.

I think it's be better to let out all their steam now, get over all the bitching and complaining and work with the classing structure.. than dealing with it in a few years time. Rules will always adjust a bit. Things take time. Just let it happen and give it a shot. :)

--KC

cowapult

01-27-2005 01:50 PM

I agree with a lot of the objectors on this list. Anything more than four classes is rediculous for rallycross (Stock2, Stock4, Mod2, Mod4). Every region I can think of has been running with ROUGHLY those few classes for many years and been very happy.

Heck, even having four classes seems silly sometimes, because you'll have an S2 car take the overall win. If an S2 car with 130 hp and street tires can take overalls in this sport, then what was the point of niggling about what class you get put in when you replace your air filter? I think the beaurocrats are out of control.

bjorn240

01-27-2005 01:50 PM

[QUOTE=KC]In a class where you currently have, say, 10 cars...where on any given sunday either could win if they were combined.

There's now the possibility for 7 FWD/3 RWD split where there's now 2 winners instead of one and RWD has a better shot of a trophy. I get your point in that regard. But why is that such a bone of contention? [/QUOTE]

It isn't that the other guy gets to win a trophy. It's that having so many classes dilutes the competition in each and every class.

Taking your example, it's much more fun to race against 9 other tightly stacked cars than it is to race against 2 other tightly stacked cars. Because every little mistake counts for more, and you have to drive that much harder to ensure a spot on the podium. And yes, if you beat nine other competitive cars, that victory _is_ worth more, in terms of satisfaction and fun.

That's why Gr.N is the coolest rally class in 2005. The competition is deep! Any mistake, you're going to drop lots of spots. No mistakes, and taking the win? You beat lots of good people. That's why VOC is a good class in Sweden. Not because everybody drives the same car -- but because there are 60 entrants, and you've got to hang it out 100% all the time to win.

Frankly, I think this is a lost cause. RallyX will have at least a dozen classes by 2007. But I think I've made my point on why considering fewer classes might be more fun. Less trophies, more fun.

- Christian

KC	01-27-2005 01:56 PM

Like I said eariler... I'm an outsider looking in, and looking at something from the outside.. not the inside.

I haven't been involved with rally-x in my region save a few events I've been to the past few years. If the old guard thinks it should only have a few classes... then there's an avenue to write in... if you're an SCCA member... Head to the site ([url]http://www.scca.com[/url]) and make your voice heard... it's your club too. :) Complaining here's not gonna change things. ;) You'll find those in the head office listen and write back.

--kC

greg donovan

01-27-2005 03:48 PM

[QUOTE=KC]Like I said eariler... I'm an outsider looking in, and looking at something from the outside.. not the inside.

I haven't been involved with rally-x in my region save a few events I've been to the past few years. If the old guard thinks it should only have a few classes... then there's an avenue to write in... if you're an SCCA member... Head to the site ([url]http://www.scca.com[/url]) and make your voice heard... it's your club too. :) Complaining here's not gonna change things. ;) You'll find those in the head office listen and write back.

--kC[/QUOTE]

christian has been an insider, he just i'snt on the inside on this one.

when autox has 66 national classes i dont think 10 is too many.

im on the fence regarding two issues:

1.seperate FWD and RWD classes, this may be valid but lets give it a year and see what happens. depending on the layout i would beat the rx-7 or it would beat me. but either way we were always very close unless it broke down.

2.and any DOT tire in street stock

snows should be OK in RSbut not SS.

anything goes in RP and RM as far as tires IMHO.

the best way to eliminate too many classes is dont enter them. if it is undersubscribed it will go away.

spend some money on some steel wheels and some used rally tires and take your SSF sentra or your SSA impreza pull the back seats out the morning of the rallyx and move on up to RP. you would be surprised on how competitive you will be.

greg donovan

01-27-2005 04:26 PM

[QUOTE=bjorn240]
Frankly, I think this is a lost cause. RallyX will have at least a dozen classes by 2007. But I think I've made my point on why considering fewer classes might be more fun. Less trophies, more fun.

- Christian[/QUOTE]

i dont think its a lost cause. i think we could see less classes by '07. but i agree on more fun.

i think we could have 8 because the RWD and FWD cars will want to run together.

and if they want to run together why shouldnt they?

the reason we drive one or the other is because we think its superior to the other. what fun would it be to only beat FWD cars i want to beat the RWD ones too. thats why i will run in RP2 since they are all lumped together there.

in RP2 in mn this year we will have a gutted golf w/welded front diff, a G5 turbo neon, a gutted FWD legacy sedan (2 drivers), a sentra se-r, another G2 golf, a G5 omni, a G5 rx-7 (2 drivers), and im sure there will be others too. thats alot of competition.

under the old G2P/G5P system we had that would have been split in half.

so personally i am all in favor of the new system as i am no worse off than before. and the G2 guys are happy cuz now they can spank on the big engine/turbo cars in their class too rather than just overall.

10th Warrior

01-28-2005 04:42 PM

i probably shouldn't get in this, but a couple of points:

the majority of people who wrote the rules felt there were compelling differences between fwd and rwd. some people here disagree. what can i say? remember, the point of classing cars nationally is to try and ingore the driver. one has to assume that drivers and car prep are equal or its pointless. oh, and, just like solo, regions can have their own classes if they want, just like before.

DOT tires in stock: how do you define a rally tire? its the same problem with Solo. its also the same solution, let the DOT do it. A number of people feel that some snow tires are better then the R700s, etc anyway. If you want to compete, you're going to have to have another set of tires/wheels anyway.

wvonkessler

01-29-2005 09:52 AM

greg donovan

01-29-2005 10:14 AM

[QUOTE=wvonkessler]Actually, Pirelli makes a 17 inch gravel tire called the XR. Look here: [url]http://www.ears.co.uk/tyres/tyre_pirelli.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

thats pretty cool, only 155 british pounds=293 USD :eek:

love that company's logo.

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2005 SCCA National RallyX Rules part 1

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