| maaw | 06-11-2004 02:45 AM |
2000 ford explorer sport, 6cyl 5 spd - doing an autocross, bad idea?
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So my buddies a car nut, has a 2000 ford explorer sport suv, its got a 100,000 miles on it and is beat to ****. I told him about auto-x and he wants to mob. Would it be a bad idea to do this? Has anyone ever taken a suv to auto-x and not rolled it? On a scale of 1-10, how dumb an idea is this?
also what class would it be in and would it be competitive :banana:
also what class would it be in and would it be competitive :banana:
| Kostamojen | 06-11-2004 03:48 AM |
Yes its bad, they probably wont let him race.
Ive seen a truck auto-x once, but only because it had a decent suspension.
Ive seen a truck auto-x once, but only because it had a decent suspension.
| TimStevens | 06-11-2004 08:12 AM |
They'll let trucks autocross, but I don't think they'd let the Explorer run.
| lukerussell | 06-11-2004 09:05 AM |
is it on firestones?
| bigcale | 06-11-2004 11:59 AM |
if they do post video
| trojan9x | 06-11-2004 12:01 PM |
I believe the only SUV's that are allowed to run are the BMW and Mercedes AFAIK
Also, I think only 2WD trucks are allowed to run
Also, I think only 2WD trucks are allowed to run
| maaw | 06-11-2004 12:21 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lukerussell [/i]
[B]is it on firestones? [/B][/QUOTE]
no clue, but I think his tires are bald anyways from constantly trying to get sideways in the thing.
either way, I think it'd be hilarious to see a suv charging down an auto-x track, just so long as he doesnt hurt himself or anyone else.
[B]is it on firestones? [/B][/QUOTE]
no clue, but I think his tires are bald anyways from constantly trying to get sideways in the thing.
either way, I think it'd be hilarious to see a suv charging down an auto-x track, just so long as he doesnt hurt himself or anyone else.
| cac3780 | 06-11-2004 12:31 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by maaw [/i]
[B]just so long as he doesnt hurt himself or anyone else. [/B][/QUOTE]
Which is probably what would happen if he would go out there.
[B]just so long as he doesnt hurt himself or anyone else. [/B][/QUOTE]
Which is probably what would happen if he would go out there.
| Osgood30 | 06-11-2004 12:39 PM |
Re: 2000 ford explorer sport, 6cyl 5 spd - doing an autocross, bad idea?
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by maaw [/i]
[B] On a scale of 1-10, how dumb an idea is this?
[/B][/QUOTE]
9 - with 10 being the dumbest
[B] On a scale of 1-10, how dumb an idea is this?
[/B][/QUOTE]
9 - with 10 being the dumbest
| KC | 06-11-2004 01:06 PM |
Eleven
| JC_595 | 06-11-2004 01:34 PM |
I've seen experienced drivers beat novice wannabees in sports cars & older Vettes with full size vans in Autocross-like bets.
No, I am NOT lying. :alien:
I say if the sanctioning body lets him, have at it.
Just think of the fun he would have beating a novice in a Miata or Neon...
Unless you are scared he actually would beat your entry...
:devil:
:)
JC
PS- I highly doubt he would roll it at an AutoX. I dont believe it would make it up to a high enough speed in such short confines.
No, I am NOT lying. :alien:
I say if the sanctioning body lets him, have at it.
Just think of the fun he would have beating a novice in a Miata or Neon...
Unless you are scared he actually would beat your entry...
:devil:
:)
JC
PS- I highly doubt he would roll it at an AutoX. I dont believe it would make it up to a high enough speed in such short confines.
| DrBiggly | 06-11-2004 01:42 PM |
I wouldn't condone it at all. 2WD truck, yes. I've done it and have the pictures to prove it.
I say it's a safety hazard. Is he an experienced autocrosser? If not, probably a bad idea. Novices have a tendency to give the car massive and inconsistent inputs. Add this to a known top-heavy SUV and this constitutes a perfect rollover recipe. Autox is not about drifting on course; it's about car control and smoothness of driving. Let him co-drive your car or someone else's. Or drive a beater (does your club have a beater?)
*Anything* but a first-timer in an SUV.
I say it's a safety hazard. Is he an experienced autocrosser? If not, probably a bad idea. Novices have a tendency to give the car massive and inconsistent inputs. Add this to a known top-heavy SUV and this constitutes a perfect rollover recipe. Autox is not about drifting on course; it's about car control and smoothness of driving. Let him co-drive your car or someone else's. Or drive a beater (does your club have a beater?)
*Anything* but a first-timer in an SUV.
| DrBiggly | 06-11-2004 01:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JC_595[/i]
[B]PS- I highly doubt he would roll it at an AutoX. I dont believe it would make it up to a high enough speed in such short confines. [/B][/QUOTE]
It doesn't take high speeds to roll a vehicle; this can be done easily at autox speeds. I've seen a RHD Austin Mini (cool car) almost roll at an autox at the hands of a novice. He went up on 2 wheels. You could tell it scared the driver because the rest of his run was a lot more under control. This was on some really ugly looking 13" (or whatever tiny size was on it) all seasons. They had to be like 4" wide. All it really takes is a bad driver in a poorly prepped car.
[B]PS- I highly doubt he would roll it at an AutoX. I dont believe it would make it up to a high enough speed in such short confines. [/B][/QUOTE]
It doesn't take high speeds to roll a vehicle; this can be done easily at autox speeds. I've seen a RHD Austin Mini (cool car) almost roll at an autox at the hands of a novice. He went up on 2 wheels. You could tell it scared the driver because the rest of his run was a lot more under control. This was on some really ugly looking 13" (or whatever tiny size was on it) all seasons. They had to be like 4" wide. All it really takes is a bad driver in a poorly prepped car.
| KC | 06-11-2004 01:49 PM |
If a Honda Si can do it:
[url]http://members.aol.com/turbojohn/Videos/JohnReamerUpOn2Wheels.wmv[/url]
--KC
[url]http://members.aol.com/turbojohn/Videos/JohnReamerUpOn2Wheels.wmv[/url]
--KC
| cac3780 | 06-11-2004 01:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by maaw [/i]
[B]no clue, but I think his tires are bald anyways from constantly trying to get sideways in the thing. [/B][/QUOTE]
MMM. I wonder if he would try to roll it on course?
[B]no clue, but I think his tires are bald anyways from constantly trying to get sideways in the thing. [/B][/QUOTE]
MMM. I wonder if he would try to roll it on course?
| JC_595 | 06-11-2004 02:03 PM |
I stand corrected (sort of)...
You are both correct that a Novice(1st timer) has far worse understanding of car control in those conditions. I did state that it was an experienced race driver that beat that novice in HIS OWN Vette for that particular bet driving a full sized van(after a race, in a controlled environment, much like a AutoX).
However, there is no way a stock, beat up Explorer would reach the speeds that Civic did, and it has far more understeer. It weighs far more & has minimal HP. I dont believe on the same course that video shows, would someone be likely to roll an Explorer.
But, I am not an AutoX expert by any means. The few I have been to were all held at the same parking lot in SE MI, and the course were VERY tight & short. Given that there are lots of different courses out there, yes, I concede that there *may* be one where this vehicle could potentially roll.
:)
JC
***BTW Dr B- I would be happy to take you for a ride in the rally car- you an experienced codriver?***
You are both correct that a Novice(1st timer) has far worse understanding of car control in those conditions. I did state that it was an experienced race driver that beat that novice in HIS OWN Vette for that particular bet driving a full sized van(after a race, in a controlled environment, much like a AutoX).
However, there is no way a stock, beat up Explorer would reach the speeds that Civic did, and it has far more understeer. It weighs far more & has minimal HP. I dont believe on the same course that video shows, would someone be likely to roll an Explorer.
But, I am not an AutoX expert by any means. The few I have been to were all held at the same parking lot in SE MI, and the course were VERY tight & short. Given that there are lots of different courses out there, yes, I concede that there *may* be one where this vehicle could potentially roll.
:)
JC
***BTW Dr B- I would be happy to take you for a ride in the rally car- you an experienced codriver?***
| DrBiggly | 06-11-2004 02:49 PM |
The comment is really more for autox. I've been in Anders' rallycar at a rallyx and that's been the extent of it. I'd like to do some codriving for rally; that would rock! :D
| cac3780 | 06-11-2004 02:56 PM |
The thing is, if he is a novice, he may reach speeds that no one should hit on a certain course, thinking that faster is better. I would be cool to see what SUV's can do on a autox course, but I would wait for a video and not be there in person. (That acutally happened though, we had an X5 run once at our region, but I missed it)
| MarkA | 06-11-2004 05:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]If a Honda Si can do it:
[url]http://members.aol.com/turbojohn/Videos/JohnReamerUpOn2Wheels.wmv[/url]
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
That thing's got issues...:eek:
[B]If a Honda Si can do it:
[url]http://members.aol.com/turbojohn/Videos/JohnReamerUpOn2Wheels.wmv[/url]
--KC [/B][/QUOTE]
That thing's got issues...:eek:
| NVAKeith | 06-11-2004 05:21 PM |
He should try it. I did some autocrossing with my Golf in '96 and '97. There was a guy with an 80's 2wd V6 Ranger that kicked ass. He did some suspension mods to it and and was easily whooping many a car (including mine). It's all about driver skill.
| cooleyjb | 06-11-2004 05:25 PM |
The real response to the Si video is why the safety steward didn't throw a red flag. Serious dropping of the ball on his part and any experienced person at that course. If a car is up on two wheels people shouldn't be going ooohh and ahhhh at an auto-x. They should be stopping the run.
| bigcale | 06-11-2004 05:57 PM |
I've seen a few honda mini-vans running in a few regions, but they handle pretty good(for a mini-van)
| MRF582 | 06-11-2004 07:00 PM |
I saw a Porshe Cayenne run at the last AutoX here in Jacksonville. I was getting ready to laugh my ass off at the guy but damn, he was a really good driver. I couldn't believe how close he was coming to the cones during his runs. that's very impresive in a big SUV like that. the guy knew how to drive that's for sure.
[URL=http://www.buccaneerregion.org/solo/standings/2004/results5-23-04.pdf]http://www.buccaneerregion.org/solo/standings/2004/results5-23-04.pdf[/URL]
open that PDF file and scroll down to the novice section. the guy came in 4th out of 31 novices and 43rd out of 104 drivers overall. not too bad.
[URL=http://www.buccaneerregion.org/solo/standings/2004/results5-23-04.pdf]http://www.buccaneerregion.org/solo/standings/2004/results5-23-04.pdf[/URL]
open that PDF file and scroll down to the novice section. the guy came in 4th out of 31 novices and 43rd out of 104 drivers overall. not too bad.
| Rebellion | 06-12-2004 12:51 AM |
Biggly.. why you holding back and not waving the S-Type flag? :lol:
I'd tell your friend to find someone else to co-drive w/. That huge piece of crappy detroit steel ain't going to be much fun in an auto-x. Not to mention, lots of safety stewards aren't going to like him.
I'd tell your friend to find someone else to co-drive w/. That huge piece of crappy detroit steel ain't going to be much fun in an auto-x. Not to mention, lots of safety stewards aren't going to like him.
| neuspeed | 06-12-2004 11:35 AM |
What about the volvo? XC90 my uncles thinking of getting one? and until I get my WRX which is another 2 years. Vs the 3 months for the volvo I get more track time. So I have something to pratice on till the WRX? dumb or good? for the TurboCharged XC90 to be autoX'd
| Butt Dyno | 06-12-2004 01:43 PM |
Clear the course of all courseworkers and let Darwin work his magic.
john
john
| DrBiggly | 06-12-2004 08:44 PM |
Rebellion,
I mentioned driving it above.
I mentioned driving it above.
| afpdl | 06-13-2004 12:05 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by neuspeed[/i]
[B] What about the volvo? XC90 my uncles thinking of getting one? and until I get my WRX which is another 2 years. Vs the 3 months for the volvo I get more track time. So I have something to pratice on till the WRX? dumb or good? for the TurboCharged XC90 to be autoX'd [/B][/QUOTE]
Assuming the XC90 is the volvo suv, if you want some seat time autoxing why not just codrive someones car? It not hard to find someone to let you drive their car if you just offer to pay their entry and maybe a few bucks for tire ware, if you dont know anyone who autoxs just go to your local forum and ask around.
[B] What about the volvo? XC90 my uncles thinking of getting one? and until I get my WRX which is another 2 years. Vs the 3 months for the volvo I get more track time. So I have something to pratice on till the WRX? dumb or good? for the TurboCharged XC90 to be autoX'd [/B][/QUOTE]
Assuming the XC90 is the volvo suv, if you want some seat time autoxing why not just codrive someones car? It not hard to find someone to let you drive their car if you just offer to pay their entry and maybe a few bucks for tire ware, if you dont know anyone who autoxs just go to your local forum and ask around.
| neuspeed | 06-13-2004 09:08 AM |
Or I can always wait for my 07/08 WRX
| neuspeed | 06-13-2004 09:10 AM |
I'll be getting the car in the summer of 06
| nunyo | 06-13-2004 02:04 PM |
I'm a solo safety steward. If I were approached about allowing the Explorer to run, I'd have to say no.
We have allowed Foresters to run, (only one had stock suspension, and when she started to get fast we asked her to tone it down, get some beefier swaybars, or bring a different vehicle). I believe that our region has allowed a Cayenne to run. I wasn't there, and I'd have had some reservations about it. I understand that it ran without incident though.
It would be interesting to see an SUV autocross as an exhibition. I think that with careful driving they're much more capable than the general public thinks. They're just much less forgiving of ham-fisted control inputs.
We have allowed Foresters to run, (only one had stock suspension, and when she started to get fast we asked her to tone it down, get some beefier swaybars, or bring a different vehicle). I believe that our region has allowed a Cayenne to run. I wasn't there, and I'd have had some reservations about it. I understand that it ran without incident though.
It would be interesting to see an SUV autocross as an exhibition. I think that with careful driving they're much more capable than the general public thinks. They're just much less forgiving of ham-fisted control inputs.
| Mr_Blastman | 06-14-2004 08:07 AM |
Re: 2000 ford explorer sport, 6cyl 5 spd - doing an autocross, bad idea?
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by maaw [/i]
[B]So my buddies a car nut, has a 2000 ford explorer sport suv, its got a 100,000 miles on it and is beat to ****. I told him about auto-x and he wants to mob. Would it be a bad idea to do this? Has anyone ever taken a suv to auto-x and not rolled it? On a scale of 1-10, how dumb an idea is this?
also what class would it be in and would it be competitive :banana: [/B][/QUOTE]
In the eyes of an SUV Driver:
SUV (n) "esss-ewww-veee" 1. A sports car. 2. They like to roll over.
Tell him no.
[B]So my buddies a car nut, has a 2000 ford explorer sport suv, its got a 100,000 miles on it and is beat to ****. I told him about auto-x and he wants to mob. Would it be a bad idea to do this? Has anyone ever taken a suv to auto-x and not rolled it? On a scale of 1-10, how dumb an idea is this?
also what class would it be in and would it be competitive :banana: [/B][/QUOTE]
In the eyes of an SUV Driver:
SUV (n) "esss-ewww-veee" 1. A sports car. 2. They like to roll over.
Tell him no.
| JC_595 | 06-14-2004 09:21 AM |
I would like to know if anyone has EVER rolled at an AUtoX? Does anyone know? I have never heard of it. (Again, I am not an AUtoX expert though).
I am VERY surprised that you would have reservations letting a Porsche Cayanne(sp?) run. Do you know the CG stats on it? it is a VERY well mannered car. I bet some Camaros have a higher CG. :)
The only way I could see an SUV of limited power roll at an AutoX would be if the person was to simply ignore all the cones & just plant his Right foot in a complete disregard for safety. Then, yes, I could easily see someone rolling their SUV.
A Forrester? Rolling? You told her to tone it down? Bah humbug. :p I simply dont see it rolling. Sorry- I would have to see it personally. Are you familiar with inertia & unsprung mass? Have you ever rolled a car in a controlled environment? What qualifications do AutoX saftey stewards need to posses?
I am not saying that rolling in those evirons couldnt be done, simply that I personally believe that it is not likely. It would be completely up to the sanctioning body & it's on site representatives/saftey stewards to make that call. Keep in mind that in our current society, it is better to ban something form running than risk a lawsuit.
And, to flame y'all more:devil: I would bring my tow vehicle to an AutoX in the SE MI/NW Ohio area to run if we want to do an experiment. IT's a 97 Chevy Suburban w/slightly larger than stock tires. :)
***NOTE- The above post in meant in a light, fun way to stir this amusing debate. It is NOT intended to offend, or imply that rolling your SUV on purpose to mitigate a lawsuit is correct, or even remotely intelligent. Result may vary. Do not try without proper adult supervision, yadda yadda yadda. ***
I am VERY surprised that you would have reservations letting a Porsche Cayanne(sp?) run. Do you know the CG stats on it? it is a VERY well mannered car. I bet some Camaros have a higher CG. :)
The only way I could see an SUV of limited power roll at an AutoX would be if the person was to simply ignore all the cones & just plant his Right foot in a complete disregard for safety. Then, yes, I could easily see someone rolling their SUV.
A Forrester? Rolling? You told her to tone it down? Bah humbug. :p I simply dont see it rolling. Sorry- I would have to see it personally. Are you familiar with inertia & unsprung mass? Have you ever rolled a car in a controlled environment? What qualifications do AutoX saftey stewards need to posses?
I am not saying that rolling in those evirons couldnt be done, simply that I personally believe that it is not likely. It would be completely up to the sanctioning body & it's on site representatives/saftey stewards to make that call. Keep in mind that in our current society, it is better to ban something form running than risk a lawsuit.
And, to flame y'all more:devil: I would bring my tow vehicle to an AutoX in the SE MI/NW Ohio area to run if we want to do an experiment. IT's a 97 Chevy Suburban w/slightly larger than stock tires. :)
***NOTE- The above post in meant in a light, fun way to stir this amusing debate. It is NOT intended to offend, or imply that rolling your SUV on purpose to mitigate a lawsuit is correct, or even remotely intelligent. Result may vary. Do not try without proper adult supervision, yadda yadda yadda. ***
| TimStevens | 06-14-2004 09:41 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JC_595[/i]
[B] I would like to know if anyone has EVER rolled at an AUtoX? Does anyone know? I have never heard of it. (Again, I am not an AUtoX expert though).[/B][/QUOTE]
Multiple cars have rolled at autocrosses, including low CG cars... a certain incident with a Saturn comes to mind. There are pics out there somewhere.
[B] I would like to know if anyone has EVER rolled at an AUtoX? Does anyone know? I have never heard of it. (Again, I am not an AUtoX expert though).[/B][/QUOTE]
Multiple cars have rolled at autocrosses, including low CG cars... a certain incident with a Saturn comes to mind. There are pics out there somewhere.
| Chromer | 06-14-2004 09:53 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JC_595[/i]
[B]A Forrester? Rolling? You told her to tone it down? Bah humbug. :p I simply dont see it rolling.[/B][/QUOTE]
<---- Ask me how I know this.
Even with sticker-than-stock tires a stock-suspension Forester starts sliding before it goes on two (or even three) wheels.
The only place I could see rolling one without R-compounds on an autox course would be on a high-speed slalom, or if there were broken pavement that could "trip" a slide.
At our local rallyxs (where rolling is much more of a concern) a toyota 4x4 pickup routinely schools wrxes...
[B]A Forrester? Rolling? You told her to tone it down? Bah humbug. :p I simply dont see it rolling.[/B][/QUOTE]
<---- Ask me how I know this.
Even with sticker-than-stock tires a stock-suspension Forester starts sliding before it goes on two (or even three) wheels.
The only place I could see rolling one without R-compounds on an autox course would be on a high-speed slalom, or if there were broken pavement that could "trip" a slide.
At our local rallyxs (where rolling is much more of a concern) a toyota 4x4 pickup routinely schools wrxes...
| TimStevens | 06-14-2004 09:56 AM |
We ran autox's on a runway apron a few years back before the 9/11 security crackdown. Even though the courses were generally set up far away from the edges of the runway, cars still would find their way into the dirt. It's not inconceivable for a car to go sliding sideways into the dirt and wind up upside down... especially a high CG car.
| JC_595 | 06-14-2004 10:50 AM |
I never considered someone sliding off the pavement. That could happen I suppose.
Also, like I had previously mentioned, I have only been to a couple autocrosses. The ones I attended/ran in were very tight & getting out of 2nd(hell, getting IN to 2nd in the raly car) was as fast as one could really get.
Also, like I had previously mentioned, I have only been to a couple autocrosses. The ones I attended/ran in were very tight & getting out of 2nd(hell, getting IN to 2nd in the raly car) was as fast as one could really get.
| Calamity Jesus | 06-14-2004 11:15 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chromer[/i]
[B]The only place I could see rolling one without R-compounds on an autox course would be on a high-speed slalom[/B][/QUOTE]
Where does this concept, that a car has to be moving at high speed to roll over, come from? Give me a helmet, a roll cage, some summer tires and I'll roll anything you want me to.
;)
If I were to roll my car during an autocross, it would be on a 180 cone pivot... at least that's where I start lifting wheels.
[B]The only place I could see rolling one without R-compounds on an autox course would be on a high-speed slalom[/B][/QUOTE]
Where does this concept, that a car has to be moving at high speed to roll over, come from? Give me a helmet, a roll cage, some summer tires and I'll roll anything you want me to.
;)
If I were to roll my car during an autocross, it would be on a 180 cone pivot... at least that's where I start lifting wheels.
| Scooby Freak | 06-14-2004 11:55 AM |
I worry about the old vw's. I've seen two old golfs come real close to flipping (up on two wheels). They are fine in steady state corners, up on three wheels, but stable. It was the slaloms w/ quick transitions, where they bounced it up onto two wheels. No R-compounds needed.
| nunyo | 06-14-2004 02:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JC_595[/i]
[B] I would like to know if anyone has EVER rolled at an AUtoX? Does anyone know? I have never heard of it. (Again, I am not an AUtoX expert though).[/b][/quote]
I've not witnessed such a thing, but I've definitely heard of it.
[quote][b]I am VERY surprised that you would have reservations letting a Porsche Cayanne(sp?) run. Do you know the CG stats on it? it is a VERY well mannered car. I bet some Camaros have a higher CG. :) ... Have you ever rolled a car in a controlled environment? What qualifications do AutoX saftey stewards need to posses?[/b][/quote]
Perhaps if I knew more about the vehicle and its driver I'd have fewer reservations.
A safety steward needs to be familiar with the Appendix E of the SCCA National Solo rules. There is a brief seminar and two apprenticeships required to be a licensed solo safety steward.
We are not trained in vehicle dynamics. For that we are left to our own experiences/biases. Having seen a friend's girlfriend roll her Honda Del Sol, I'm not comfortable with vehicles that display a lot of body roll. That is why we asked the Forester driver to tone it down.
No I've never rolled a vehicle, controlled or otherwise, and its not my intent to be in charge (from a safety perspective) at an event where a questionable vehicle ends up on its roof. Its a rare request to run an SUV, usually being made by a novice (or at least someone completely new to the club, and thus with unproven driving ability).
Its not our job to make sure that as many different types of vehicles as possible are allowed to run. It's our job to help ensure that every vehicle and participant leaves in the same condition that they arrived in. To that end, we don't play in the gray areas much.
[B] I would like to know if anyone has EVER rolled at an AUtoX? Does anyone know? I have never heard of it. (Again, I am not an AUtoX expert though).[/b][/quote]
I've not witnessed such a thing, but I've definitely heard of it.
[quote][b]I am VERY surprised that you would have reservations letting a Porsche Cayanne(sp?) run. Do you know the CG stats on it? it is a VERY well mannered car. I bet some Camaros have a higher CG. :) ... Have you ever rolled a car in a controlled environment? What qualifications do AutoX saftey stewards need to posses?[/b][/quote]
Perhaps if I knew more about the vehicle and its driver I'd have fewer reservations.
A safety steward needs to be familiar with the Appendix E of the SCCA National Solo rules. There is a brief seminar and two apprenticeships required to be a licensed solo safety steward.
We are not trained in vehicle dynamics. For that we are left to our own experiences/biases. Having seen a friend's girlfriend roll her Honda Del Sol, I'm not comfortable with vehicles that display a lot of body roll. That is why we asked the Forester driver to tone it down.
No I've never rolled a vehicle, controlled or otherwise, and its not my intent to be in charge (from a safety perspective) at an event where a questionable vehicle ends up on its roof. Its a rare request to run an SUV, usually being made by a novice (or at least someone completely new to the club, and thus with unproven driving ability).
Its not our job to make sure that as many different types of vehicles as possible are allowed to run. It's our job to help ensure that every vehicle and participant leaves in the same condition that they arrived in. To that end, we don't play in the gray areas much.
| JC_595 | 06-14-2004 03:09 PM |
I would like to thank you for such a nicely thought out response.
:)
I fully appreciate that there are people with your level head in roles such as this. Seriously. Part of the reason I posted those questions in the manner I did was to get a reaction.
I am glad to see that you must take a mandated course also.
You seem to fit the position you have volunteered for.
IT's good to see people taking the necessary precautions with AutoX's.
I must agree then that controlling novices via limiting equipment seems to work, and be the right thing to do.
Now if you can just find someone to help the people like that Civic that need assistance setting up their car safely...
Carry on. Thanx for the debate.
:D
JC
:)
I fully appreciate that there are people with your level head in roles such as this. Seriously. Part of the reason I posted those questions in the manner I did was to get a reaction.
I am glad to see that you must take a mandated course also.
You seem to fit the position you have volunteered for.
IT's good to see people taking the necessary precautions with AutoX's.
I must agree then that controlling novices via limiting equipment seems to work, and be the right thing to do.
Now if you can just find someone to help the people like that Civic that need assistance setting up their car safely...
Carry on. Thanx for the debate.
:D
JC
| dwx | 06-14-2004 05:18 PM |
A few years ago (before I ever autocrossed) someone rolled a Civic on R-compound tires at County Stadium here. In a offset gate/slalom kind of setup. Stock suspension+race tires.
| DrBiggly | 06-14-2004 06:04 PM |
Typically the formula goes something like:
bad shocks + r-compounds + jerky/bad/poor/ham-fisted car inputs =
Oh N0s! Autox hax0red my car!
bad shocks + r-compounds + jerky/bad/poor/ham-fisted car inputs =
Oh N0s! Autox hax0red my car!
| Tensen | 06-14-2004 09:34 PM |
I'll say this...
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album46/IMG_5673.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album46/IMG_5559.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album46/IMG_5673.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album46/IMG_5559.jpg[/img]
| DrBiggly | 06-14-2004 10:45 PM |
That's kinda worrisome looking. That lot looks awfully dirty so hopefully the person in the X5 4.4i would be sliding before rolling. Was it an experienced driver?
| bigcale | 06-14-2004 10:49 PM |
OK OK Big difference between BMW and Porsche(VW) SUV's (and the Infinity), as beautifully shown above, is that they are tuned(however irresponsably) by the respective manufacturers to be "sporty", the Ford is not!!!
No way is a stock Exploder going to handle like that.
The driver should read the thread about the woman who is paralized from the waist down because she tried to manuever her POS like it was a sports car, albeit she did win a few million dollars.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=571797&highlight=explorer[/url]
:furious:
end rant
No way is a stock Exploder going to handle like that.
The driver should read the thread about the woman who is paralized from the waist down because she tried to manuever her POS like it was a sports car, albeit she did win a few million dollars.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=571797&highlight=explorer[/url]
:furious:
end rant
| Tensen | 06-14-2004 10:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DrBiggly [/i]
[B]That's kinda worrisome looking. That lot looks awfully dirty so hopefully the person in the X5 4.4i would be sliding before rolling. Was it an experienced driver? [/B][/QUOTE]
to my knowledge, the driver is very experienced...i dont remember if the guy drives race porsches or bmws, but he had skills...he was running extremely good times
[B]That's kinda worrisome looking. That lot looks awfully dirty so hopefully the person in the X5 4.4i would be sliding before rolling. Was it an experienced driver? [/B][/QUOTE]
to my knowledge, the driver is very experienced...i dont remember if the guy drives race porsches or bmws, but he had skills...he was running extremely good times
| Calamity Jesus | 06-15-2004 11:46 AM |
I'm curious as to how some of you folks think the 2 wheeling civic from the video should be set up differently?
I would think that asking him to slow it down and keep at least 3 wheels on the pavement would be useful.. but to say that his suspension is set up improperly is just silly.
He's lifting up in steady state cornering.. you're going to ask him to alter his ride for less grip? :huh:
I can understand where the safety concerns come from.. but where does the term 'improperly set up' come from?
I would think that asking him to slow it down and keep at least 3 wheels on the pavement would be useful.. but to say that his suspension is set up improperly is just silly.
He's lifting up in steady state cornering.. you're going to ask him to alter his ride for less grip? :huh:
I can understand where the safety concerns come from.. but where does the term 'improperly set up' come from?
| JC_595 | 06-15-2004 12:51 PM |
I was wondering when someone may ask this. Bear in mind I am not an expert, but I have been in lots of experts' company, and learned from those who live the stuff still in road racing circles. My translation may be a bit fuzzy...
A car that lifts tires like that does not have the proper diagonal weights nor the proper sway bars. Most likely the coilovers are too short also, along with being too stiff(which is what I mean by weights- the actual weight each spring supports/exerts as scaled).
A properly handling car uses sway bars not to "stop the body roll", but to use that force effectively to pull the inside wheels down in a corner.
The Civic had no discernable negative travel(suspension droop) that I could see in the video(I may stand corrected of course). It appears to have been setup like a go cart, limiting suspension completely, but with a much higher CG(center of gravity) than a go cart. The inertia of the heavier mass(more weight, higher up), with very sticky tires & low overall weight(wont slide as easy, front OR rear) will cause the larger mass to overcome the velocity of the surfaces with friction(the height of the tires at their contact patch), thereby cauing the inside tires to lift, because none of the downward force of the outside tires is translated to the inside tires.
The thing to remember(or so I have been told for years) is that making a car super stiff, doesnt necessarily make it handle it's best. There are many other things to consider, other than simply taking the strongest springs you can find & ploppin em on.
So, yes, altering his ride for less grip. Sort of. Not really. You can gain far higher cornering speeds with a car that is neutrally weighted, has beefier sway bars with proper end links(that do not flex like stock subie ones), properly valved shocks/struts with correct weight springs to balance the cars' overall weight and allow for weight transfer/shift to enhance traction, and not limiting the travel to positive(upward) travel in the suspension. Watching that video, I bet a stock civic could be driven as fast. So, I would disagree that saying his car is setup improperly is "silly". :)
If that car handled correctly, he would lift/brake going in, then accerlate thru the apex strongly, not lifting a wheel. The only time that car should lift a wheel is when braking into a corner, the inside rear wheel COULD lift, but depending on the car, that may or may not be faster or safer. Never should the car exhibit that behavior while accelerating thru an apex.
:)
JC
A car that lifts tires like that does not have the proper diagonal weights nor the proper sway bars. Most likely the coilovers are too short also, along with being too stiff(which is what I mean by weights- the actual weight each spring supports/exerts as scaled).
A properly handling car uses sway bars not to "stop the body roll", but to use that force effectively to pull the inside wheels down in a corner.
The Civic had no discernable negative travel(suspension droop) that I could see in the video(I may stand corrected of course). It appears to have been setup like a go cart, limiting suspension completely, but with a much higher CG(center of gravity) than a go cart. The inertia of the heavier mass(more weight, higher up), with very sticky tires & low overall weight(wont slide as easy, front OR rear) will cause the larger mass to overcome the velocity of the surfaces with friction(the height of the tires at their contact patch), thereby cauing the inside tires to lift, because none of the downward force of the outside tires is translated to the inside tires.
The thing to remember(or so I have been told for years) is that making a car super stiff, doesnt necessarily make it handle it's best. There are many other things to consider, other than simply taking the strongest springs you can find & ploppin em on.
So, yes, altering his ride for less grip. Sort of. Not really. You can gain far higher cornering speeds with a car that is neutrally weighted, has beefier sway bars with proper end links(that do not flex like stock subie ones), properly valved shocks/struts with correct weight springs to balance the cars' overall weight and allow for weight transfer/shift to enhance traction, and not limiting the travel to positive(upward) travel in the suspension. Watching that video, I bet a stock civic could be driven as fast. So, I would disagree that saying his car is setup improperly is "silly". :)
If that car handled correctly, he would lift/brake going in, then accerlate thru the apex strongly, not lifting a wheel. The only time that car should lift a wheel is when braking into a corner, the inside rear wheel COULD lift, but depending on the car, that may or may not be faster or safer. Never should the car exhibit that behavior while accelerating thru an apex.
:)
JC
| afpdl | 06-15-2004 12:59 PM |
How does a bigger swaybar push the inside tire to the ground:confused:
| JC_595 | 06-15-2004 01:21 PM |
That is the whole reason for swaybars! :)
If you take a bar/rod/broomstick, and hold it out in front of you with both arms straight out, one at either end, and have a coworker or friend push up on one end, you will have the other end feel like it's pulling down.
Pushing UP on one side of a bar, forces the other end DOWN, like a teeter-totter. The stronger the bar, the more force it can transfer, therefore the more pressure on that inside wheel.
Keep in mind though, this is limited by the springs & shocks too. They must all work together as a set or design group. A bigger bar will only help so much, until you add spring rate(stronger springs), for the bar to work against. Stronger springs must have properly valves shocks/strut cartridges to balance the higher spring rates(which is where I am limited in my knowledge for sure).
:D
JC
If you take a bar/rod/broomstick, and hold it out in front of you with both arms straight out, one at either end, and have a coworker or friend push up on one end, you will have the other end feel like it's pulling down.
Pushing UP on one side of a bar, forces the other end DOWN, like a teeter-totter. The stronger the bar, the more force it can transfer, therefore the more pressure on that inside wheel.
Keep in mind though, this is limited by the springs & shocks too. They must all work together as a set or design group. A bigger bar will only help so much, until you add spring rate(stronger springs), for the bar to work against. Stronger springs must have properly valves shocks/strut cartridges to balance the higher spring rates(which is where I am limited in my knowledge for sure).
:D
JC
| afpdl | 06-15-2004 01:28 PM |
if swaybars were straight that would happen, but they have arms coming off of them and work torsionally. When you push up on the outside portion of the swaybar it pushes up on the inside portion of the swaybar too. At least thats how it works on my car.
Ive always seen bigger rear bars increase inside rear tire lift. Some one explain how im missunderstanding this.
Ive always seen bigger rear bars increase inside rear tire lift. Some one explain how im missunderstanding this.
| Chromer | 06-15-2004 01:40 PM |
A "perfectly stiff" sway bar would lower the ride height of the inside suspension in steady-state cornering the same amount as the outside suspension, which helps reduce weight transfer.
What would be cool is if you could build a swaybar that would compress the inside suspension by more than the amount the outside suspension compresses, making the car "lean in" to the turn.
JC - not sure how much autox background you have. I don't have a lot, but... It's my understanding that autox setups are biased towards fast transitioning at the expense of ultimate grip, and that is why they tend to be oversprung, which causes the dog-legging into corners (or the front wheel out of corners if RWD).
What would be cool is if you could build a swaybar that would compress the inside suspension by more than the amount the outside suspension compresses, making the car "lean in" to the turn.
JC - not sure how much autox background you have. I don't have a lot, but... It's my understanding that autox setups are biased towards fast transitioning at the expense of ultimate grip, and that is why they tend to be oversprung, which causes the dog-legging into corners (or the front wheel out of corners if RWD).
| JC_595 | 06-15-2004 02:22 PM |
I am hoping someone that knows more about SUbies specifically will jump in here... as I dont have enough experience with this exact stock setup and the affects of changing single components at a time...
The effectiveness of a sway bar is limited by the rest of the suspension & strange things can happen when only 1 component is substantially upgraded with the remaining items still stock.
Also, the bushings that hold the bar, the end links & their busings/rod ends, the flex of the A arms or control arms, and the flex of the body itself can conteract this too.
How were they lifting a wheel? A BACK wheel? Under braking into the corner? That is due to forward weight transfer in conjunction with cornering inertia...
AS I was writing this, I noticed Chromer's response-
No I am really green as far as AutoXin' goes. I would say that transitional handling would be very crucial, yes. But, that is also how it is with road racing cars. Someone like Randy Zimmer(who sometimes frequents this board, and has raced ALL kinds of cars in all kinds of conditions) probably can give far more insight to this in relation to Subie owners.
I believe that there are people who use somethin like that in road racing realms. I seem to recall that mounting the suspension horizontally, with the coilovers opposing each other has sumptin to do with that. I wonder if an F1 Tech search could learn us somthing there... :confused:
The only other point I can make is that it doesnt really reduce weight transfer, rather it counteracts it. I believe there is a difference. Lowering your CG reduces weight transfer.
The effectiveness of a sway bar is limited by the rest of the suspension & strange things can happen when only 1 component is substantially upgraded with the remaining items still stock.
Also, the bushings that hold the bar, the end links & their busings/rod ends, the flex of the A arms or control arms, and the flex of the body itself can conteract this too.
How were they lifting a wheel? A BACK wheel? Under braking into the corner? That is due to forward weight transfer in conjunction with cornering inertia...
AS I was writing this, I noticed Chromer's response-
No I am really green as far as AutoXin' goes. I would say that transitional handling would be very crucial, yes. But, that is also how it is with road racing cars. Someone like Randy Zimmer(who sometimes frequents this board, and has raced ALL kinds of cars in all kinds of conditions) probably can give far more insight to this in relation to Subie owners.
I believe that there are people who use somethin like that in road racing realms. I seem to recall that mounting the suspension horizontally, with the coilovers opposing each other has sumptin to do with that. I wonder if an F1 Tech search could learn us somthing there... :confused:
The only other point I can make is that it doesnt really reduce weight transfer, rather it counteracts it. I believe there is a difference. Lowering your CG reduces weight transfer.
| afpdl | 06-15-2004 02:31 PM |
I still dont see how a swaybar could lower the inside wheel, they are not shaped like this ----- they are shaped like this ] every swaybar I have ever seen is shaped this way. when the car rolls the outside pushes up on the arm as the endlink is attached to the suspension and the bar is attached to the cars frame, its impossilbe to translate that upward force on the outside of the bar as a downward force on the inside wheel.
They dont work like you have a broomstick on your arm they twist.
And they increase weight transfer not reduce.
They dont work like you have a broomstick on your arm they twist.
And they increase weight transfer not reduce.
| JC_595 | 06-15-2004 02:40 PM |
They may be shaped like that, and I agree that it's not as simple as a broomstick(I was trying to come up with a good, simple example).
I still stand by my statment that swaybars are designed to counteract sideways weight transfer, by transferring some "UP" force on the outside wheel to an added "Down" force on the inside wheel.
I believe the shape of the swaybar has 2 functions-
1) To fit the car, or bend around other objects for clearance
2) To add or subtract pressure from the size the bar needs to be to fit. In other words, I think the reason there are twists/bends in them is to fine tune them to the Engineer's flex spec, to accomplish the correct lbs of transfer rate.
I still stand by my statment that swaybars are designed to counteract sideways weight transfer, by transferring some "UP" force on the outside wheel to an added "Down" force on the inside wheel.
I believe the shape of the swaybar has 2 functions-
1) To fit the car, or bend around other objects for clearance
2) To add or subtract pressure from the size the bar needs to be to fit. In other words, I think the reason there are twists/bends in them is to fine tune them to the Engineer's flex spec, to accomplish the correct lbs of transfer rate.
| TyrannoSullyRex | 06-15-2004 02:44 PM |
Just to try something JC, take a paper clip and bend it like this: ] , hold it in the middle and push up on one end, all will become clear then.
| TimStevens | 06-15-2004 02:50 PM |
Sorry to contradict, but all an anti-roll bar does is counteract roll. It does so by twisting as the car rolls, which discourages body roll. In effect, it is "lifting" the inside wheel. If it pushed the inside wheel down the whole car would lean even further to the outside of a turn.
Here's a pic:
[img]http://www.autowarrantybroker.com/images/8852XG17.gif[/img]
When the wheel on the right of the picture (driver's side) is pushed up while the car turns to the right, the anti-roll bar flexes to a degree and rotates within the bushings. A stiffer bar will not flex as much and so will not allow the suspension to compress on one side without it also compressing on the other, so the inside wheel will effectively be lifted to match the height of the outer bar, keeping the car more level.
This is why you can make a bar more "stiff" by moving the mounting points on it so that the bar is shorter, reducing the amount of leverage the suspension applies on the bar and making it harder to flex.
Here's a pic:
[img]http://www.autowarrantybroker.com/images/8852XG17.gif[/img]
When the wheel on the right of the picture (driver's side) is pushed up while the car turns to the right, the anti-roll bar flexes to a degree and rotates within the bushings. A stiffer bar will not flex as much and so will not allow the suspension to compress on one side without it also compressing on the other, so the inside wheel will effectively be lifted to match the height of the outer bar, keeping the car more level.
This is why you can make a bar more "stiff" by moving the mounting points on it so that the bar is shorter, reducing the amount of leverage the suspension applies on the bar and making it harder to flex.
| JC_595 | 06-15-2004 02:51 PM |
:lol:
I understand the confusion now. You are both correct. IT does twist, and I can see your points. :)
But, The fact that it twists only shows the amount of tuning that engineers can put into the stock sway bars. The length of the arm after each bend, the thickness of the metal, type of metal, durometer of the bushings... ALL that is to TUNE the bar to a certain level.
I am used to racing bars. They are straight, thereby easy to tune by racer standards(sumtimes we aint too braight<spoken like a hillbilly>).
So yes, they do twist, AND pull like a lever then.
I understand the confusion now. You are both correct. IT does twist, and I can see your points. :)
But, The fact that it twists only shows the amount of tuning that engineers can put into the stock sway bars. The length of the arm after each bend, the thickness of the metal, type of metal, durometer of the bushings... ALL that is to TUNE the bar to a certain level.
I am used to racing bars. They are straight, thereby easy to tune by racer standards(sumtimes we aint too braight<spoken like a hillbilly>).
So yes, they do twist, AND pull like a lever then.
| afpdl | 06-15-2004 02:52 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JC_595[/i]
[B] I still stand by my statment that swaybars are designed to counteract sideways weight transfer, by transferring some "UP" force on the outside wheel to an added "Down" force on the inside wheel.
[/B][/QUOTE]
They are to counteract sway hence the name. Try the paperclip thing or get under the rear of your car and try and figure out how upward force on one side would = downward force on the other. And yes leverage is involed but not in the way you are speaking.
[B] I still stand by my statment that swaybars are designed to counteract sideways weight transfer, by transferring some "UP" force on the outside wheel to an added "Down" force on the inside wheel.
[/B][/QUOTE]
They are to counteract sway hence the name. Try the paperclip thing or get under the rear of your car and try and figure out how upward force on one side would = downward force on the other. And yes leverage is involed but not in the way you are speaking.
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