| Fred | 05-17-2004 09:50 AM |
2.5RS autox comparison test (as promised)
�
�
Did a little comparison test during fun runs at the autox on Saturday. Two runs in the coupe, then two runs in the sedan. Took one more run in the coupe to try and beat the sedan, but ended up overdriving - coned a few times & went 0.5 sec slower.
2000 2.5RS coupe - the autox car
Stock, except for:
STi Group N engine mounts
Cusco shifter bushings
Ganzflow intake, borla header, stromung catback
STi V5RA springs
Konis
STi Group N topmounts
Whiteline KCA375 offset control arm bushings
Whiteline 22mm front sway bar
Whiteline 24mm rear sway bar
Whiteline endlinks (the cheap ones)
Camber: -2.2 front, -1.5 rear
Toe: 1/16 out front & rear
Carbotech Bobcats
Falken Azenis 205/55/16 on stock wheels
WRX front seats
best time: 39.674
2001 2.5RS sedan - the daily driver/ rallyx car
Stock, except for:
STi Group N engine mounts
Kartboy shifter bushings
Konis
WRX 20mm rear sway bar
STi Group N rear lateral link & trailing arm bushings
Camber: -1.2 front & rear (max available with stock bolts)
Toe: zero front & rear [B]edit: actually it was 1/4" toe IN at the front - oops.[/B]
Goodridge brake lines, Axxis Ultimates
Pirelli PZero Nero 205/50/16 on stock wheels
best time: 39.658
In case you think that maybe the driver just sucks...
The fastest legitimate (non-coned, non-DNF) runs by SP, SM, etc. cars on R compounds were about a second faster.
I won the driver's championship in the club last year based on overall PAX results... and Tom Hoppe is in the club.
I wouldn't say I'm the best driver in the world, or that I had "the perfect run" in either car (especially the coupe), but the fastest run in each car still felt pretty damn good. I would say the coupe probably could've run a few tenths faster than the sedan if I'd had a few more runs in each car.
I think this is a pretty decent illustration of the fact that a "poorly-prepared" car is not really that much slower than a well-prepared car, and that it's up to the driver to utilize the potential. The sedan was also MUCH easier to drive than the coupe (which is kinda twitchy & a little bit loose), which is why anybody just starting out shouldn't just go out & spend thousands of dollars on the car. Feel free to tell me I'm stupid - or to say "thanks for preventing me from wasting thousands of $ to drop a few tenths of a second..."
:)
2000 2.5RS coupe - the autox car
Stock, except for:
STi Group N engine mounts
Cusco shifter bushings
Ganzflow intake, borla header, stromung catback
STi V5RA springs
Konis
STi Group N topmounts
Whiteline KCA375 offset control arm bushings
Whiteline 22mm front sway bar
Whiteline 24mm rear sway bar
Whiteline endlinks (the cheap ones)
Camber: -2.2 front, -1.5 rear
Toe: 1/16 out front & rear
Carbotech Bobcats
Falken Azenis 205/55/16 on stock wheels
WRX front seats
best time: 39.674
2001 2.5RS sedan - the daily driver/ rallyx car
Stock, except for:
STi Group N engine mounts
Kartboy shifter bushings
Konis
WRX 20mm rear sway bar
STi Group N rear lateral link & trailing arm bushings
Camber: -1.2 front & rear (max available with stock bolts)
Toe: zero front & rear [B]edit: actually it was 1/4" toe IN at the front - oops.[/B]
Goodridge brake lines, Axxis Ultimates
Pirelli PZero Nero 205/50/16 on stock wheels
best time: 39.658
In case you think that maybe the driver just sucks...
The fastest legitimate (non-coned, non-DNF) runs by SP, SM, etc. cars on R compounds were about a second faster.
I won the driver's championship in the club last year based on overall PAX results... and Tom Hoppe is in the club.
I wouldn't say I'm the best driver in the world, or that I had "the perfect run" in either car (especially the coupe), but the fastest run in each car still felt pretty damn good. I would say the coupe probably could've run a few tenths faster than the sedan if I'd had a few more runs in each car.
I think this is a pretty decent illustration of the fact that a "poorly-prepared" car is not really that much slower than a well-prepared car, and that it's up to the driver to utilize the potential. The sedan was also MUCH easier to drive than the coupe (which is kinda twitchy & a little bit loose), which is why anybody just starting out shouldn't just go out & spend thousands of dollars on the car. Feel free to tell me I'm stupid - or to say "thanks for preventing me from wasting thousands of $ to drop a few tenths of a second..."
:)
| trhoppe | 05-17-2004 09:53 AM |
Youre stupid ;) :lol:
-Tom
-Tom
| Fred | 05-17-2004 10:06 AM |
Your mama.
:p
:p
| Midnight_Gold | 05-17-2004 10:26 AM |
Uhoh, here we go about the momma's bum again!
:rolleyes:
- Miranda
:rolleyes:
- Miranda
| NeoteriX | 05-17-2004 10:28 AM |
That's pretty interesting. I guess that means for me that the evolution school is more worth it than that new set of struts.. :)
| jmott | 05-17-2004 10:37 AM |
which car did you run 2nd?
| trhoppe | 05-17-2004 10:54 AM |
[quote]Two runs in the coupe, then two runs in the sedan. Took one more run in the coupe to try and beat the sedan[/quote]
:confused:
:confused:
| jmott | 05-17-2004 10:57 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
ahhhh
boot to my own head
[B]:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
ahhhh
boot to my own head
| 10th Warrior | 05-17-2004 12:02 PM |
do you rally-x on the Neros? ;)
[quote]I think this is a pretty decent illustration of the fact that a "poorly-prepared" car is not really that much slower than a well-prepared car,[/quote]
we all know that GS is the only [i]real[/i] class :)
[quote]I think this is a pretty decent illustration of the fact that a "poorly-prepared" car is not really that much slower than a well-prepared car,[/quote]
we all know that GS is the only [i]real[/i] class :)
| jmott | 05-17-2004 12:04 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 10th Warrior [/i]
[B]
we all know that GS is the only [i]real[/i] class :) [/B][/QUOTE]
ive always been partial to ASP/BSP
=)
[B]
we all know that GS is the only [i]real[/i] class :) [/B][/QUOTE]
ive always been partial to ASP/BSP
=)
| Fred | 05-17-2004 12:29 PM |
The first rallyx we had, I ran on the Pirellis. Won my class, ended up 3rd overall (to two rally drivers). They didn't feel that bad. I was driving on them all the time back then, and started autoxing on them when I wore out the set of Azenis I was using. Didn't do too bad; won DSP on them up in VA once (among other good results). :) They're kinda worn down now, so I wouldn't want to rallyx on them at this point.
I'm rallyxing now on the stock-sized Continental Contiextremecontacts I bought for winter use. They don't really feel that much different in the dirt, but they suck bunghole on pavement. :rolleyes: On snow, they rock.
I'm rallyxing now on the stock-sized Continental Contiextremecontacts I bought for winter use. They don't really feel that much different in the dirt, but they suck bunghole on pavement. :rolleyes: On snow, they rock.
| 10th Warrior | 05-17-2004 02:16 PM |
i have the contis on my car and have been pretty happy with them. i'll agree they aren't the greatest, even by allseason standards, on dry pavement, but great rain tire and, like you said, very good in the snow. also competent on gravel. i've screwed around a bit with them on dirt and they seem ok for a street tire (i normally run R700s).
[quote]ive always been partial to ASP/BSP[/quote]
when i said 'real' class, i meant real slow :)
[quote]ive always been partial to ASP/BSP[/quote]
when i said 'real' class, i meant real slow :)
| jmott | 05-17-2004 02:30 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 10th Warrior [/i]
[B]
when i said 'real' class, i meant real slow :) [/B][/QUOTE]
hehe
Imma have to vote for HSTOCK then
a 318i is still fun in that class too!
[B]
when i said 'real' class, i meant real slow :) [/B][/QUOTE]
hehe
Imma have to vote for HSTOCK then
a 318i is still fun in that class too!
| jblaine | 05-17-2004 05:24 PM |
That's pretty interesting. Thanks for doing it.
| DrBiggly | 05-17-2004 05:43 PM |
I was there at the autox and saw him run both cars. His times were definitely competitive for the class and overall for the entire club. I think Tom barely got him on PAX time? Don't remember.
Fred, did you see my post on the THSCC board? I'm pondering over whether or not to protest that guy and claim a trophy. I pay so much attention to my stuff to make sure I'm perfectly legal...why can't everybody else do the same? :mad:
Fred, did you see my post on the THSCC board? I'm pondering over whether or not to protest that guy and claim a trophy. I pay so much attention to my stuff to make sure I'm perfectly legal...why can't everybody else do the same? :mad:
| Kostamojen | 05-17-2004 07:02 PM |
Im not surprised. The alignment and swaybars on the "well-preped" cars isnt that great for autocrossing.
| NeoteriX | 05-18-2004 12:31 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kostamojen[/i]
[B] Im not surprised. The alignment and swaybars on the "well-preped" cars isnt that great for autocrossing. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't understand? If you "prep" a car for autocrossing, why wouldn't it do well for autocrossing?
[B] Im not surprised. The alignment and swaybars on the "well-preped" cars isnt that great for autocrossing. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't understand? If you "prep" a car for autocrossing, why wouldn't it do well for autocrossing?
| Seeing StaRS | 05-18-2004 01:38 AM |
nice info thanks for posting
Joe
Joe
| trhoppe | 05-18-2004 09:03 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kostamojen[/i]
[B] Im not surprised. The alignment and swaybars on the "well-preped" cars isnt that great for autocrossing. [/B][/QUOTE]
Huh? :confused: What do YOU think a good alignment + swaybar combo is for autox :lol:
-Tom
[B] Im not surprised. The alignment and swaybars on the "well-preped" cars isnt that great for autocrossing. [/B][/QUOTE]
Huh? :confused: What do YOU think a good alignment + swaybar combo is for autox :lol:
-Tom
| jmott | 05-18-2004 11:11 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Huh? :confused: What do YOU think a good alignment + swaybar combo is for autox :lol:
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
-2.5 to -3 degrees camber, way stiffer linear rate springs, likely lower than the springs that car had on it, larger azenis.
swaybar? meh.
[B]Huh? :confused: What do YOU think a good alignment + swaybar combo is for autox :lol:
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
-2.5 to -3 degrees camber, way stiffer linear rate springs, likely lower than the springs that car had on it, larger azenis.
swaybar? meh.
| jmott | 05-18-2004 11:11 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by NeoteriX [/i]
[B]I don't understand? If you "prep" a car for autocrossing, why wouldn't it do well for autocrossing? [/B][/QUOTE]
I think he is arguing it wasn't prepped all that well.
really the only thing I see between the two cars that ought to make the first one noticeably quicker is the tires.
[B]I don't understand? If you "prep" a car for autocrossing, why wouldn't it do well for autocrossing? [/B][/QUOTE]
I think he is arguing it wasn't prepped all that well.
really the only thing I see between the two cars that ought to make the first one noticeably quicker is the tires.
| trhoppe | 05-18-2004 11:13 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jmott[/i]
[B] -2.5 to -3 degrees camber, way stiffer linear rate springs, likely lower than the springs that car had on it, larger azenis.
swaybar? meh. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with the springs, but kostamojen did not mention springs specifically. Kevin needs to quit being a wuss and get real springs on the car no doubt, but his swaybar combo + alignment are spot on. You don't need that much camber on a lighter 2.5RS. I'm actually right at -2.5 right now on my WRX and am thinking about dialing a bit out as I'm still hotter on the insides.
-Tom
[B] -2.5 to -3 degrees camber, way stiffer linear rate springs, likely lower than the springs that car had on it, larger azenis.
swaybar? meh. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with the springs, but kostamojen did not mention springs specifically. Kevin needs to quit being a wuss and get real springs on the car no doubt, but his swaybar combo + alignment are spot on. You don't need that much camber on a lighter 2.5RS. I'm actually right at -2.5 right now on my WRX and am thinking about dialing a bit out as I'm still hotter on the insides.
-Tom
| Kostamojen | 05-19-2004 12:50 AM |
Too much swaybar, too much rear camber and too much toe.
That more specific for you?
But in the end, they are simular cars in that they have simular power and not much difference in grip between the two.
That more specific for you?
But in the end, they are simular cars in that they have simular power and not much difference in grip between the two.
| AlpineFD | 05-19-2004 02:12 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kostamojen [/i]
[B]Too much swaybar, too much rear camber and too much toe.
That more specific for you?
But in the end, they are simular cars in that they have simular power and not much difference in grip between the two. [/B][/QUOTE]
What would you consider to be a better toe setting for autox?
Thanks,
Randy
[B]Too much swaybar, too much rear camber and too much toe.
That more specific for you?
But in the end, they are simular cars in that they have simular power and not much difference in grip between the two. [/B][/QUOTE]
What would you consider to be a better toe setting for autox?
Thanks,
Randy
| trhoppe | 05-19-2004 09:09 AM |
Too much swaybar?
He's running 22 front, 24 rear, thats not ENOUGH bar.
Too much rear camber?
Rear camber is set to "feel" after the rest of the setup is done. The car is loose with -1.5. It would be stupid with less
Too much toe?
1/16 toe out is too much? Front toe out for a slight turn in bite and slight rear toe out to get the car rotating faster.
-Tom
who thinks kostamojen should NOT post any setup advice for anyone ;)
He's running 22 front, 24 rear, thats not ENOUGH bar.
Too much rear camber?
Rear camber is set to "feel" after the rest of the setup is done. The car is loose with -1.5. It would be stupid with less
Too much toe?
1/16 toe out is too much? Front toe out for a slight turn in bite and slight rear toe out to get the car rotating faster.
-Tom
who thinks kostamojen should NOT post any setup advice for anyone ;)
| Fred | 05-19-2004 09:35 AM |
Hmmm... what color is the sky... oh, nevermind.
Anyway, here's another interesting bit of info about the sedan - I was noticing that I had to turn the wheel to the left to stay straight, so I got my wife to help me check the toe. It was perfect in the rear, and the right front was fine, but the left front was way off... for a total of 1/4" toe IN. :lol: I'm going to have to check everything out - may have bent something rallyxing?
It just keeps getting better & better! :rolleyes:
Anyway, here's another interesting bit of info about the sedan - I was noticing that I had to turn the wheel to the left to stay straight, so I got my wife to help me check the toe. It was perfect in the rear, and the right front was fine, but the left front was way off... for a total of 1/4" toe IN. :lol: I'm going to have to check everything out - may have bent something rallyxing?
It just keeps getting better & better! :rolleyes:
| Kostamojen | 05-19-2004 07:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Too much swaybar?
He's running 22 front, 24 rear, thats not ENOUGH bar.
Too much rear camber?
Rear camber is set to "feel" after the rest of the setup is done. The car is loose with -1.5. It would be stupid with less
Too much toe?
1/16 toe out is too much? Front toe out for a slight turn in bite and slight rear toe out to get the car rotating faster.
-Tom
who thinks kostamojen should NOT post any setup advice for anyone ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Unless you are running like 500lbs springs with super stiff shocks, thats waaaay too much swaybar for a GC. Just going to cause the inside rear wheel to lift on every corner, reducing traction and making the car act like it has solid beam axles all around. Swaybars do not = more grip or higher speeds in a corner. He does not have enough suspension to need that large of swaybars.
You dont need that much toe for auto-x. It wont help. I have yet to see odd toe settings actually help.
As for looseness, you need to worry more about suspension settings and tire pressure to get the car loose or not loose. I can go from crazy off-throttle oversteer, to a nice on-trottle drift setup, to total understeer just with tire pressure and adjusting the suspension. Getting that set up properly is the key.
[B]Too much swaybar?
He's running 22 front, 24 rear, thats not ENOUGH bar.
Too much rear camber?
Rear camber is set to "feel" after the rest of the setup is done. The car is loose with -1.5. It would be stupid with less
Too much toe?
1/16 toe out is too much? Front toe out for a slight turn in bite and slight rear toe out to get the car rotating faster.
-Tom
who thinks kostamojen should NOT post any setup advice for anyone ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Unless you are running like 500lbs springs with super stiff shocks, thats waaaay too much swaybar for a GC. Just going to cause the inside rear wheel to lift on every corner, reducing traction and making the car act like it has solid beam axles all around. Swaybars do not = more grip or higher speeds in a corner. He does not have enough suspension to need that large of swaybars.
You dont need that much toe for auto-x. It wont help. I have yet to see odd toe settings actually help.
As for looseness, you need to worry more about suspension settings and tire pressure to get the car loose or not loose. I can go from crazy off-throttle oversteer, to a nice on-trottle drift setup, to total understeer just with tire pressure and adjusting the suspension. Getting that set up properly is the key.
| trhoppe | 05-20-2004 12:00 AM |
[quote]He does not have enough suspension to need that large of swaybars. [/quote]
[quote]You dont need that much toe for auto-x. It wont help. I have yet to see odd toe settings actually help.[/quote]
[quote]As for looseness, you need to worry more about suspension settings and TIRE PRESSURE???? to get the car loose or not loose. [/quote]
:huh: :huh:
I'm just speechless :lol:
-Tom
[quote]You dont need that much toe for auto-x. It wont help. I have yet to see odd toe settings actually help.[/quote]
[quote]As for looseness, you need to worry more about suspension settings and TIRE PRESSURE???? to get the car loose or not loose. [/quote]
:huh: :huh:
I'm just speechless :lol:
-Tom
| NeoteriX | 05-20-2004 12:14 AM |
Far be it from me to interrupt, because I'm in awe of the motorsport accomplishments of both of you, but I'd like to throw out a quote from my favorite teen movie, She's All That
"Okay, okay, now everyone has a big jimmy." :lol:
"Okay, okay, now everyone has a big jimmy." :lol:
| DrBiggly | 05-20-2004 12:34 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] :huh: :huh:
I'm just speechless :lol:
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm with you on this one. :huh: :alien:
[B] :huh: :huh:
I'm just speechless :lol:
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm with you on this one. :huh: :alien:
| Kostamojen | 05-20-2004 01:48 AM |
Ok, next time you guys are in CA you are driving my car.
| Warp3 | 05-20-2004 09:21 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kostamojen [/i]
[B]thats waaaay too much swaybar for a GC. Just going to cause the inside rear wheel to lift on every corner[/B][/QUOTE]
While I don't agree with much of the suspension tuning advice he has listed, I do want to point something out about this statement.
I would be thoroughly surprised if Kevin isn't lifting a rear wheel with his 22/24 setup, as I'm lifting a rear wheel with my 22/22 setup (99 2.5RS). Now I do have grippier tires (225 Victoracers) and softer front springs (DMS Golds with the factory 180/180 setup), but I also run smaller than stock tires (225/50-15) and have the car lowered a good bit so I have a lower roll center than he does.
That said, I love my big swaybars and think they made a huge difference in the handling of the car (though I am thinking about trying 22/20 instead to keep the rear on the ground).
Shane -- SM 729
[B]thats waaaay too much swaybar for a GC. Just going to cause the inside rear wheel to lift on every corner[/B][/QUOTE]
While I don't agree with much of the suspension tuning advice he has listed, I do want to point something out about this statement.
I would be thoroughly surprised if Kevin isn't lifting a rear wheel with his 22/24 setup, as I'm lifting a rear wheel with my 22/22 setup (99 2.5RS). Now I do have grippier tires (225 Victoracers) and softer front springs (DMS Golds with the factory 180/180 setup), but I also run smaller than stock tires (225/50-15) and have the car lowered a good bit so I have a lower roll center than he does.
That said, I love my big swaybars and think they made a huge difference in the handling of the car (though I am thinking about trying 22/20 instead to keep the rear on the ground).
Shane -- SM 729
| Fred | 05-20-2004 09:23 AM |
Kostamojen:
Who are you, who is so wise in the ways of suspension tuning? Got any major autox wins? Own a suspension tuning shop? What is it that makes your information better than trhoppe's?
Not trying to flame or anything, just wondering who the Hell I'm talking to...
Who are you, who is so wise in the ways of suspension tuning? Got any major autox wins? Own a suspension tuning shop? What is it that makes your information better than trhoppe's?
Not trying to flame or anything, just wondering who the Hell I'm talking to...
| Fred | 05-20-2004 09:25 AM |
Shane - just to let you know, I've witnessed Tom's car lifting the inside rear tire consistently in SLALOMS. But is it fast? I think it might be...
:lol:
:lol:
| DrBiggly | 05-20-2004 09:43 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred[/i]
[B] Kostamojen:
Who are you, who is so wise in the ways of suspension tuning? Got any major autox wins? Own a suspension tuning shop? What is it that makes your information better than trhoppe's?
Not trying to flame or anything, just wondering who the Hell I'm talking to... [/B][/QUOTE]
Who said trhoppe had any autox wins? :p :lol:
[B] Kostamojen:
Who are you, who is so wise in the ways of suspension tuning? Got any major autox wins? Own a suspension tuning shop? What is it that makes your information better than trhoppe's?
Not trying to flame or anything, just wondering who the Hell I'm talking to... [/B][/QUOTE]
Who said trhoppe had any autox wins? :p :lol:
| Warp3 | 05-20-2004 09:53 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred[/i]
[B] Shane - just to let you know, I've witnessed Tom's car lifting the inside rear tire consistently in SLALOMS. But is it fast? I think it might be...
:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
Most of my tire lifting comes in tight turns (like 90-degree turns) instead of slaloms. Maybe I should just get some stiffer springs in the front (or even all around) instead of adjusting the swaybars?
Shane -- SM 729
[B] Shane - just to let you know, I've witnessed Tom's car lifting the inside rear tire consistently in SLALOMS. But is it fast? I think it might be...
:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
Most of my tire lifting comes in tight turns (like 90-degree turns) instead of slaloms. Maybe I should just get some stiffer springs in the front (or even all around) instead of adjusting the swaybars?
Shane -- SM 729
| trhoppe | 05-20-2004 10:03 AM |
[quote]Maybe I should just get some stiffer springs in the front (or even all around) instead of adjusting the swaybars?[/quote]
Youre on 180lb springs :eek: :huh: wow....
Yea, you should go at *least* 2x that
Also, why are you guys trying to prevent rear weight transfer?
-Tom
whose cars lifts a rear wheel in slaloms + everything else
edit: car lifting a wheel in an offset slalom
[url]http://www.tomhoppe.com/images/danville/images/DSC_0197.JPG[/url]
Youre on 180lb springs :eek: :huh: wow....
Yea, you should go at *least* 2x that
Also, why are you guys trying to prevent rear weight transfer?
-Tom
whose cars lifts a rear wheel in slaloms + everything else
edit: car lifting a wheel in an offset slalom
[url]http://www.tomhoppe.com/images/danville/images/DSC_0197.JPG[/url]
| DrBiggly | 05-20-2004 11:19 AM |
Oh crap that reminds me...Tom, check your PMs; I've finally fixed that last one. I'll tell you how in the PM. :)
| 10th Warrior | 05-20-2004 11:27 AM |
in all fairness, you can adjust the handling of the car a fair amount with tire pressures, at least with R's. not the best way to do it, but it works for Stock.
ps-toe and bar good.
ps-toe and bar good.
| Warp3 | 05-20-2004 02:06 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Also, why are you guys trying to prevent rear weight transfer?[/B][/QUOTE]
Because 4 tires provide more lateral grip than 3 (I'm mainly referring to turns here as I don't mind if I 3-wheel in slaloms since that helps the car rotate).
But, more importantly, I have an open rear diff ('99 2.5RS remember), so when a rear wheel is airborne the other rear tire doesn't get any power and I'm suddenly FWD until I "land"... :lol: (Actually, most often, I don't completely lift the rear wheel, but do unweight it enough to smoke the crap out of it under power...I guess I should stick an LSD in the back...hehe :) )
Shane -- SM 729
[B]Also, why are you guys trying to prevent rear weight transfer?[/B][/QUOTE]
Because 4 tires provide more lateral grip than 3 (I'm mainly referring to turns here as I don't mind if I 3-wheel in slaloms since that helps the car rotate).
But, more importantly, I have an open rear diff ('99 2.5RS remember), so when a rear wheel is airborne the other rear tire doesn't get any power and I'm suddenly FWD until I "land"... :lol: (Actually, most often, I don't completely lift the rear wheel, but do unweight it enough to smoke the crap out of it under power...I guess I should stick an LSD in the back...hehe :) )
Shane -- SM 729
| trhoppe | 05-20-2004 02:13 PM |
IMHO I have always had TOO Much grip in the back. Anything I can do to reduce rear grip makes me happy. I have a lot of spring and a huge bar to get the weight off the inside and to the outside. Then I am running less the optimal camber and toe out to give the rear even less grip and help the car rotate.
-Tom
-Tom
| dwx | 05-20-2004 04:25 PM |
I have always had problems with the inside rear wheel lifting on my car, but I don't know that I'd throw away the rear swaybar because of it. Cobb when setting up the conebasher car had problems with that, and that's why they used a Kaaz rear LSD. I think they tried every suspension combination on earth and couldn't get the car to rotate well without that happening.
I'm switching to some higher rate rear springs right now (500lb) to try and alleviate squatting when under hard accel coming out of corners (I have wheelspin issues) and I'm hoping that helps with some of the rear inside lift as well. I run Cusco swaybars at like 21f/22r currently with 450f/400r 7" eibach springs. We have a test and tune here in a couple weeks and I'm hoping to get things dialed in then.
I'm switching to some higher rate rear springs right now (500lb) to try and alleviate squatting when under hard accel coming out of corners (I have wheelspin issues) and I'm hoping that helps with some of the rear inside lift as well. I run Cusco swaybars at like 21f/22r currently with 450f/400r 7" eibach springs. We have a test and tune here in a couple weeks and I'm hoping to get things dialed in then.
| Kostamojen | 05-20-2004 05:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred [/i]
[B]Not trying to flame or anything, just wondering who the Hell I'm talking to... [/B][/QUOTE]
Uh, Ive been posting in this forum for as long as I can remember since I joined up, so its not like I just poped up out of nowhere :lol: (although everyone posting here seems to be from the east coast)
I think we need to narrow down this discussion to GC's, because thats what its about... WRX/STI suspension tuning works a little different.
Tom: Do you have aftermarket rear control links yet? I found those made a good difference in handling for the rear of the car, might want to try that (if you dont have some already of course)
[B]Not trying to flame or anything, just wondering who the Hell I'm talking to... [/B][/QUOTE]
Uh, Ive been posting in this forum for as long as I can remember since I joined up, so its not like I just poped up out of nowhere :lol: (although everyone posting here seems to be from the east coast)
I think we need to narrow down this discussion to GC's, because thats what its about... WRX/STI suspension tuning works a little different.
Tom: Do you have aftermarket rear control links yet? I found those made a good difference in handling for the rear of the car, might want to try that (if you dont have some already of course)
| DrBiggly | 05-20-2004 07:02 PM |
He's got some...in fact I took pictures of them.
On a side note, Tom did you get the PM with the last of those 3 pictures fixed? :)
On a side note, Tom did you get the PM with the last of those 3 pictures fixed? :)
| solo-x | 05-20-2004 07:17 PM |
i see the problem here. way too many drive wheels. :D
nate
nate
| Fred | 05-20-2004 11:46 PM |
[QUOTE]Uh, Ive been posting in this forum for as long as I can remember since I joined up, so its not like I just poped up out of nowhere (although everyone posting here seems to be from the east coast)[/QUOTE]
Doesn't mean that I've payed attention to you & know who you are... so uh, you kinda sidestepped my question, didn't you? :)
For all I know, you're a 16 yr-old kid who's done a few autoxes & has some "interesting" opinions on suspension setups...
;)
fwiw, I sortof agree with what you're saying - in that while all these modifications make a huge difference in the "feel" of the car, they don't really make it a whole lot faster through the course.
Doesn't mean that I've payed attention to you & know who you are... so uh, you kinda sidestepped my question, didn't you? :)
For all I know, you're a 16 yr-old kid who's done a few autoxes & has some "interesting" opinions on suspension setups...
;)
fwiw, I sortof agree with what you're saying - in that while all these modifications make a huge difference in the "feel" of the car, they don't really make it a whole lot faster through the course.
| Kostamojen | 05-21-2004 06:10 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred [/i]
[B]Doesn't mean that I've payed attention to you & know who you are... so uh, you kinda sidestepped my question, didn't you? :)
[/B][/QUOTE]
Your question was a double sword. Either I answer it and look like a dork trying to explain himself, or I dont answer it and everyone thinks I avoided the question.
[B]Doesn't mean that I've payed attention to you & know who you are... so uh, you kinda sidestepped my question, didn't you? :)
[/B][/QUOTE]
Your question was a double sword. Either I answer it and look like a dork trying to explain himself, or I dont answer it and everyone thinks I avoided the question.
| Kostamojen | 05-21-2004 06:16 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DrBiggly [/i]
[B]He's got some...in fact I took pictures of them.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The GDA/B's seem to be annoyingly hard for people to get that last bit of understeer gone. It took Gary Sheehan sooo long to do, and ive only seen two WRX's in the Sac/Reno regions setup to the point where their great drivers could drive the car with the right qualities of transitional handling. (One was Brents excellent handling blue 02 that runs around here in Sac, consitantly paxed 1-3rd overall, and the other is Deans crazy fast SRP 02 in the Reno region, both run in ST-X)
[B]He's got some...in fact I took pictures of them.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The GDA/B's seem to be annoyingly hard for people to get that last bit of understeer gone. It took Gary Sheehan sooo long to do, and ive only seen two WRX's in the Sac/Reno regions setup to the point where their great drivers could drive the car with the right qualities of transitional handling. (One was Brents excellent handling blue 02 that runs around here in Sac, consitantly paxed 1-3rd overall, and the other is Deans crazy fast SRP 02 in the Reno region, both run in ST-X)
| a1k0n | 05-21-2004 06:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kostamojen [/i]
As for looseness, you need to worry more about suspension settings and tire pressure to get the car loose or not loose. I can go from crazy off-throttle oversteer, to a nice on-trottle drift setup, to total understeer just with tire pressure and adjusting the suspension. Getting that set up properly is the key. [/QUOTE]
This is my experience as well. I'm surprised at the reaction to this. It's true. You can make your car super loose with a swaybar, but you can also make it super loose by pumping up your back tires, or messing with your adjustable shocks. The first accessory I bought for my GC8 was a tire gauge with a bleed valve, since my last one was stolen along with my last car.
I used to drive an STS Civic with too much bar (23mm; it was a 2450lb car) and 1/16th toe-out front and back. It felt nice in slower, tighter sections, but it was way too loose above 50mph. I was always lifting the inside rear (although it didn't matter too much if I did in an FWD), and as I improved it became obvious that I had to go too slow in slaloms just to keep the back end from coming around. Lowering the back tire pressures was essential if I didn't want to spin, or worse, wind up outside the top 10 in the class.
Well, that car's gone now, and I'm not planning to make the same mistakes with my GC8, although I'm not really convinced toe-out isn't a good idea.
As for looseness, you need to worry more about suspension settings and tire pressure to get the car loose or not loose. I can go from crazy off-throttle oversteer, to a nice on-trottle drift setup, to total understeer just with tire pressure and adjusting the suspension. Getting that set up properly is the key. [/QUOTE]
This is my experience as well. I'm surprised at the reaction to this. It's true. You can make your car super loose with a swaybar, but you can also make it super loose by pumping up your back tires, or messing with your adjustable shocks. The first accessory I bought for my GC8 was a tire gauge with a bleed valve, since my last one was stolen along with my last car.
I used to drive an STS Civic with too much bar (23mm; it was a 2450lb car) and 1/16th toe-out front and back. It felt nice in slower, tighter sections, but it was way too loose above 50mph. I was always lifting the inside rear (although it didn't matter too much if I did in an FWD), and as I improved it became obvious that I had to go too slow in slaloms just to keep the back end from coming around. Lowering the back tire pressures was essential if I didn't want to spin, or worse, wind up outside the top 10 in the class.
Well, that car's gone now, and I'm not planning to make the same mistakes with my GC8, although I'm not really convinced toe-out isn't a good idea.
| trojan9x | 05-24-2004 11:21 AM |
not to hijack, but approx. how much toe out would you say occurs for every 1* of -camber?
BTW, here is my setup I usually run on Autox
(these are all estimates as I've yet to have it aligned properly)
being it's daily driver, I have 7k fronts 6k rears.
Front is approx. -3.5* (camber plates all the way in)
Rear is -1.8* (just bought rear camber plates to dial it in a little)
Front bar is stock (19mm I believe for RS)
Rear is 20mm (non adjustable)
Trailer hitch (sounds dumb, but feels stiffer in the rear with it, more noticable than sway bar IMO) :lol:
For my soft springs (daily driver so I don't want to Kill myself) and apparently small sway bars, I still lift the rear wheels in slaloms (offset or not). I play with tire pressures more than anything.
Only time I notice much understeer is when I get too hot into a corner.
Who am I? (before you ask)
Well, you can look at some results from my local events here
[url]http://www.phillyscca.com/program_schedule.htm#solo2_results[/url]
look for 319 in Pro class
I've only done one tour and that was at DC last year where I got sick while there (literally, over the barriers near the port-o-jons) so I hope to make a better showing this year as my car is totally different setup wise than last year.
BTW, here is my setup I usually run on Autox
(these are all estimates as I've yet to have it aligned properly)
being it's daily driver, I have 7k fronts 6k rears.
Front is approx. -3.5* (camber plates all the way in)
Rear is -1.8* (just bought rear camber plates to dial it in a little)
Front bar is stock (19mm I believe for RS)
Rear is 20mm (non adjustable)
Trailer hitch (sounds dumb, but feels stiffer in the rear with it, more noticable than sway bar IMO) :lol:
For my soft springs (daily driver so I don't want to Kill myself) and apparently small sway bars, I still lift the rear wheels in slaloms (offset or not). I play with tire pressures more than anything.
Only time I notice much understeer is when I get too hot into a corner.
Who am I? (before you ask)
Well, you can look at some results from my local events here
[url]http://www.phillyscca.com/program_schedule.htm#solo2_results[/url]
look for 319 in Pro class
I've only done one tour and that was at DC last year where I got sick while there (literally, over the barriers near the port-o-jons) so I hope to make a better showing this year as my car is totally different setup wise than last year.
| Fred | 05-24-2004 11:29 AM |
a1k0n - I don't think anybody denied that you could do that, just that it's more of use in stock classes where you have less suspension adjustability. Yes, I know how to adjust the dampers & sway bars to change the balance, and yes, I do adjust tire pressures if I feel too much push or a little too loose.
trojan9x - somebody posted it in the suspension forum, you should be able to find it if you search for diy alignment. I look forward to seeing you in DC! :)
trojan9x - somebody posted it in the suspension forum, you should be able to find it if you search for diy alignment. I look forward to seeing you in DC! :)
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