| cyRally | 07-10-2002 11:52 AM |
Alert: ProRally on SPEED Thursday!
Rim of the World ProRally will be on TV thursday night.....tell everyone you know to check it out! We need ratings!
11:30 pm on the Speedchannel, right after the 11:00pm preview for the Safari Rally
11:30 pm on the Speedchannel, right after the 11:00pm preview for the Safari Rally
| Jon Bogert | 07-10-2002 12:55 PM |
[QUOTE]We need ratings![/QUOTE]
Do we? I thought the broadcast was fully paid--kind of like an infomercial.
What kind of ratings are we currently getting? How do they compare with WRC coverage--or pickup trucks driving in circles?
Do we? I thought the broadcast was fully paid--kind of like an infomercial.
What kind of ratings are we currently getting? How do they compare with WRC coverage--or pickup trucks driving in circles?
| cyRally | 07-10-2002 01:04 PM |
haha..
I am not sure if the ProRally show is a time buy or not. A time buy would mean that the manufacturers (subaru, hyundai, mitsu) pay for the time in full and then sell the 30 sec spots to cut their losses.
Either way we still need people to watch the show!!!!! If you are going to attract any attention from the speedchannel in order to give the show a better time slot (and some promotional help) you need viewers!
If we get enough viewers then everything will get better. More money from sponsors...more money towards production of the show etc....
so if everyone could just spread the word that prorally is on TV it would do us wonders. The manufacturers, the scca and speedchannel dont advertise or promote the show at all.
I haven't heard any concrete ratings or estimates yet, but I have heard that the speedchannel is getting a great response to the WRC coverage.
I am not sure if the ProRally show is a time buy or not. A time buy would mean that the manufacturers (subaru, hyundai, mitsu) pay for the time in full and then sell the 30 sec spots to cut their losses.
Either way we still need people to watch the show!!!!! If you are going to attract any attention from the speedchannel in order to give the show a better time slot (and some promotional help) you need viewers!
If we get enough viewers then everything will get better. More money from sponsors...more money towards production of the show etc....
so if everyone could just spread the word that prorally is on TV it would do us wonders. The manufacturers, the scca and speedchannel dont advertise or promote the show at all.
I haven't heard any concrete ratings or estimates yet, but I have heard that the speedchannel is getting a great response to the WRC coverage.
| WagonMonster | 07-10-2002 01:22 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]
Do we? I thought the broadcast was fully paid--kind of like an infomercial.
What kind of ratings are we currently getting? How do they compare with WRC coverage--or pickup trucks driving in circles? [/B][/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
Still, if the Neilsen numbers are good, maybe it'll convince Speed and their sponsors to expand coverage for next year.
SCCA ClubRallyists have got to be the most whiny and pessimistic people ever!
[B]
Do we? I thought the broadcast was fully paid--kind of like an infomercial.
What kind of ratings are we currently getting? How do they compare with WRC coverage--or pickup trucks driving in circles? [/B][/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
Still, if the Neilsen numbers are good, maybe it'll convince Speed and their sponsors to expand coverage for next year.
SCCA ClubRallyists have got to be the most whiny and pessimistic people ever!
| Subie Gal | 07-10-2002 01:34 PM |
OH YEAH huh....
wonder if i should even bother to tune in ;) :lol:
thanks for the reminder!
cheers!
jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
wonder if i should even bother to tune in ;) :lol:
thanks for the reminder!
cheers!
jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Jon Bogert | 07-10-2002 02:22 PM |
The adjective is [i]realistic[/i], not [i]pessimistic[/i]. :lol: And all but about 20 SCCA rallyists have a damn good reason to be both!
But back on topic: I wonder just how far we are ratings-wise from being self-sustaining. Given the amazing string-pulling that was required to get ProRally on the air at all this year, I bet it's pretty far off.
As to the WRC lead-in, I'm not sure anyone would trade last year's prime-time coverage for 11:30 at night. There are some other unintended consequences, too. I told a rally-unaware friend to watch the SCCA coverage, but he watched the WRC stuff first. His appraisal? "Wow, the American guys sure are slow!" Ouch. :(
Maybe I'll make it like a drinking game: I'll do a shot every time a non-Mitsubarundai gets on camera. ;)
But back on topic: I wonder just how far we are ratings-wise from being self-sustaining. Given the amazing string-pulling that was required to get ProRally on the air at all this year, I bet it's pretty far off.
As to the WRC lead-in, I'm not sure anyone would trade last year's prime-time coverage for 11:30 at night. There are some other unintended consequences, too. I told a rally-unaware friend to watch the SCCA coverage, but he watched the WRC stuff first. His appraisal? "Wow, the American guys sure are slow!" Ouch. :(
Maybe I'll make it like a drinking game: I'll do a shot every time a non-Mitsubarundai gets on camera. ;)
| cyRally | 07-10-2002 03:20 PM |
Of course no one would have traded primetime coverage for our 11:30 spot...but the point is that its better than nothing. Alot of other forms of racing that were on par with ProRally (viewership/popularity) were axed in favor of NASCRAP.
So be happy we made it out alive.
Also of course we look slow next to the WRC guys...thats because half the field are club level guys. But the point is that ProRally is all US fans have...they CANT go see a WRC event...so the logical thinking is that they will like WRC so much that they will also take a liking to the homegrown ProRally stuff.
Yes I'm sure the ratings are not that great yet...but the sport is growing and we need to be positive about it all.
It it weren't for subaru, hyundai and Mitsu none of us would get to see any rallying at all. And is it really that bad that there are only 3 or 4 different makes of cars? In most other forms of motorsport all the cars look the same and the only difference is the logos on the side.
So be happy we made it out alive.
Also of course we look slow next to the WRC guys...thats because half the field are club level guys. But the point is that ProRally is all US fans have...they CANT go see a WRC event...so the logical thinking is that they will like WRC so much that they will also take a liking to the homegrown ProRally stuff.
Yes I'm sure the ratings are not that great yet...but the sport is growing and we need to be positive about it all.
It it weren't for subaru, hyundai and Mitsu none of us would get to see any rallying at all. And is it really that bad that there are only 3 or 4 different makes of cars? In most other forms of motorsport all the cars look the same and the only difference is the logos on the side.
| WagonMonster | 07-10-2002 03:26 PM |
It's still on during Primetime on the West Coast! :D
| Jon Bogert | 07-10-2002 04:23 PM |
cyRally, if we were doing comedy, you could be my straight-man! :lol:
I won't take any easy pokes, but suffice it to say that a lot of your assumptions clearly represent the views of a "factory" team and not the mainstream competitor. Go on over to SpeacialStage.com and read the posts there as the competitors try to decide how best to overthrow the current decision-making structure in SCCA ProRally.
OK, one easy poke: the Club level guys don't look slow on TV... [b]Because they don't even get covered![/b]
I won't take any easy pokes, but suffice it to say that a lot of your assumptions clearly represent the views of a "factory" team and not the mainstream competitor. Go on over to SpeacialStage.com and read the posts there as the competitors try to decide how best to overthrow the current decision-making structure in SCCA ProRally.
OK, one easy poke: the Club level guys don't look slow on TV... [b]Because they don't even get covered![/b]
| cyRally | 07-10-2002 04:33 PM |
haha...
Well my opinions are that of a fan, not a club level guy who is pissed that he cant get on TV.
As a fan I want to see more rallying, and I want other people to be as 'into' rallying as I am. I love the sport and I would love more people to get involved.
Lets not start this club level gripe stuff here. I am on special stage, and I do voice my opinion over there as well. But remember that not even special stage represents the mainstream competitor. The guys on there are just the outspoken ones.
My assumptions are: That people will take a liking to rallying if they could just get exposed to it. In turn this helps the sport grow. You do want the sport to grow right?
Why are we even talking about this....I just wanted to remind everyone to watch the show...;)
Well my opinions are that of a fan, not a club level guy who is pissed that he cant get on TV.
As a fan I want to see more rallying, and I want other people to be as 'into' rallying as I am. I love the sport and I would love more people to get involved.
Lets not start this club level gripe stuff here. I am on special stage, and I do voice my opinion over there as well. But remember that not even special stage represents the mainstream competitor. The guys on there are just the outspoken ones.
My assumptions are: That people will take a liking to rallying if they could just get exposed to it. In turn this helps the sport grow. You do want the sport to grow right?
Why are we even talking about this....I just wanted to remind everyone to watch the show...;)
| WagonMonster | 07-10-2002 04:55 PM |
The future of Rally in the US as a viable and profitable specator sport does [u]not[/u] lay in SCCA [b]Club[/b]Rally. Period..
;)
;)
| Subie Gal | 07-10-2002 05:01 PM |
[QUOTE]OK, one easy poke: the Club level guys don't look slow on TV... Because they don't even get covered![/QUOTE]
hell...even some of the Pro's cant get covered! :rolleyes:
jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
hell...even some of the Pro's cant get covered! :rolleyes:
jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Jon Bogert | 07-10-2002 05:32 PM |
[QUOTE]a viable and profitable specator sport[/QUOTE]
If you want a viable and profitable specator sport, go watch NASCAR. That's what happens to racing when the marketing folks make the decisions.
I believe strongly (as if you couldn't tell ;) ) that rallying is different. If you're into softball, do you flip through the channels looking for a softball game? No, you go out to the local park with your glove and look to play the game. If you're a Subaru driver, get off your butt and go find a rally near you to help out. Run a rallycross or TSD. Save your pennies and build yourself a rally car. Like Nike says, JUST DO IT!
And with that perspective, big manufacturers taking over and ClubRallyists getting squeezed out suddenly becomes a topic that all Subaru owning rally enthusiasts should pay attention to.
David Richards doesn't care about you rallying. Sit back with your remote control, buy whatever's advertised on the side of the car and get your thrills like a typical American--on your couch eating Cheetos.
You deserve better. Rally deserves better.
If you want a viable and profitable specator sport, go watch NASCAR. That's what happens to racing when the marketing folks make the decisions.
I believe strongly (as if you couldn't tell ;) ) that rallying is different. If you're into softball, do you flip through the channels looking for a softball game? No, you go out to the local park with your glove and look to play the game. If you're a Subaru driver, get off your butt and go find a rally near you to help out. Run a rallycross or TSD. Save your pennies and build yourself a rally car. Like Nike says, JUST DO IT!
And with that perspective, big manufacturers taking over and ClubRallyists getting squeezed out suddenly becomes a topic that all Subaru owning rally enthusiasts should pay attention to.
David Richards doesn't care about you rallying. Sit back with your remote control, buy whatever's advertised on the side of the car and get your thrills like a typical American--on your couch eating Cheetos.
You deserve better. Rally deserves better.
| dch | 07-10-2002 05:55 PM |
I just want to know how the hell those bastards know if I'm tuned in or not! Is there some sort of spy device hooked up in my living room? I'm all for tuning to channel 65 (happens to be Speed in my area) to see ROTW, but someone spill the beans as to how exactly that will help out ratings...
-Doug
-Doug
| WagonMonster | 07-10-2002 05:59 PM |
Jon,
I'm not saying that we should do-away with ClubRally at all. I personally think ClubRally is great and I am [I]personally[/I] very involved in ClubRally. You are absolutely correct that ClubRally is a great place for people like you and myself to be able to actively participate in.
BUT...
The same people who, like you, want to keep ClubRally small and grassroots oriented also bitch and moan about not getting enough TV Coverage. You can't have it both ways.
I love ClubRally and I plan on being involved in it for a long time, but as I said before, The future of Rally in the US as a viable and profitable specator sport does not lay in SCCA ClubRally.
But why not also have Rally that is specator oriented? like the WRC or even NASCAR? I'm no fan of NASCAR, but Rally in the US could take a few marketing lessons from them.
I'm not saying that we should do-away with ClubRally at all. I personally think ClubRally is great and I am [I]personally[/I] very involved in ClubRally. You are absolutely correct that ClubRally is a great place for people like you and myself to be able to actively participate in.
BUT...
The same people who, like you, want to keep ClubRally small and grassroots oriented also bitch and moan about not getting enough TV Coverage. You can't have it both ways.
I love ClubRally and I plan on being involved in it for a long time, but as I said before, The future of Rally in the US as a viable and profitable specator sport does not lay in SCCA ClubRally.
But why not also have Rally that is specator oriented? like the WRC or even NASCAR? I'm no fan of NASCAR, but Rally in the US could take a few marketing lessons from them.
| OnTheGas | 07-10-2002 11:17 PM |
Hey... Watch It!
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]You deserve better. Rally deserves better. [/B][/QUOTE]:D ...so are you recomending that people watch the broadcast or no?
Seriously... I vote we watch it! To provide a view from another side, I don't have a rally car, and most likely never will, because racing karts excites me more. But rallying is a great sport, and I love to watch it.
:p So there!
And I don't recomend cheetos... :p
[B]You deserve better. Rally deserves better. [/B][/QUOTE]:D ...so are you recomending that people watch the broadcast or no?
Seriously... I vote we watch it! To provide a view from another side, I don't have a rally car, and most likely never will, because racing karts excites me more. But rallying is a great sport, and I love to watch it.
:p So there!
And I don't recomend cheetos... :p
| Jon Bogert | 07-10-2002 11:26 PM |
[QUOTE]...so are you recomending that people watch the broadcast or no?[/QUOTE]
Hahaha! I did stray a bit, didn't I? [i]Definitely[/i] watch it, but be an educated fan, and realize that the show doesn't cover most of what goes on in the woods. What you get to see is heavily influenced--if not directly chosen--by people who care more about marketing their cars than they do about the sport.
Hahaha! I did stray a bit, didn't I? [i]Definitely[/i] watch it, but be an educated fan, and realize that the show doesn't cover most of what goes on in the woods. What you get to see is heavily influenced--if not directly chosen--by people who care more about marketing their cars than they do about the sport.
| MattJP | 07-10-2002 11:46 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cyRally [/i]
[B]haha...
As a fan I want to see more rallying, and I want other people to be as 'into' rallying as I am. I love the sport and I would love more people to get involved.
Why are we even talking about this....I just wanted to remind everyone to watch the show...;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Rally coverage is the only reason that I spend the extra dough for digital cable and the SPEED channel. The WRC coverage is way better this year, too. And I don't mind watching the reruns at dinner time, either! I wonder how many people catch it at these earlier hours, really like it and become new fans....
It'll be fun to watch the interest in it grow...
Thanks for the alert, cy!
[B]haha...
As a fan I want to see more rallying, and I want other people to be as 'into' rallying as I am. I love the sport and I would love more people to get involved.
Why are we even talking about this....I just wanted to remind everyone to watch the show...;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Rally coverage is the only reason that I spend the extra dough for digital cable and the SPEED channel. The WRC coverage is way better this year, too. And I don't mind watching the reruns at dinner time, either! I wonder how many people catch it at these earlier hours, really like it and become new fans....
It'll be fun to watch the interest in it grow...
Thanks for the alert, cy!
| cyRally | 07-11-2002 10:12 AM |
thanks!
This is such an easy subject for everyone to rant and rave about.
Club guys get pissed because the dont get on tv..but then they complain that marketing and the pro teams will push them out...
Yeah they will be pushed out....Out of Pro and into Club.
Thats the way it should be. If youre out to just have fun and cant spend your retirement money then go have fun in ClubRally. I believe that is the essence of the sport. But no one is going to know that rallying even exists unless the Pro guys look good and get on TV.
But the problem of course is that Clubrally is sort of behind the ball: not enough events etc...
If the pro side of the sport gets big enough everything will trickle down to the club side of things....more money, more events etc...
Its growing pains plain and simple.
The moral of the story? Watch rally on TV. Get interested in it. Go to an event and volunteer. Get really into it. Buy a cheap car and build it into a rally car. Go have the time of your life. Live happily ever after. :D
This is such an easy subject for everyone to rant and rave about.
Club guys get pissed because the dont get on tv..but then they complain that marketing and the pro teams will push them out...
Yeah they will be pushed out....Out of Pro and into Club.
Thats the way it should be. If youre out to just have fun and cant spend your retirement money then go have fun in ClubRally. I believe that is the essence of the sport. But no one is going to know that rallying even exists unless the Pro guys look good and get on TV.
But the problem of course is that Clubrally is sort of behind the ball: not enough events etc...
If the pro side of the sport gets big enough everything will trickle down to the club side of things....more money, more events etc...
Its growing pains plain and simple.
The moral of the story? Watch rally on TV. Get interested in it. Go to an event and volunteer. Get really into it. Buy a cheap car and build it into a rally car. Go have the time of your life. Live happily ever after. :D
| Jon Bogert | 07-11-2002 10:42 AM |
So you're saying it's OK for "mainstream" rallyists (pro and club monikers don't reflect reality anyway) to be pushed out of the events they've supported for years in favor of a handful of factory teams?
Is that your idea of trickle-down? :mad:
For the record, I'm not mad about ME not getting on TV. If I won my class and didn't get on TV (like some competitors have), I'd be pretty pissed, though. If I was running top-10 overall in a non-Mitsubarundai and didn't get on TV I'd probably sue somebody. :D
Is that your idea of trickle-down? :mad:
For the record, I'm not mad about ME not getting on TV. If I won my class and didn't get on TV (like some competitors have), I'd be pretty pissed, though. If I was running top-10 overall in a non-Mitsubarundai and didn't get on TV I'd probably sue somebody. :D
| cyRally | 07-11-2002 10:54 AM |
No I'm saying we are in a growing stage of the sport and that club guys will have to deal with this fact.
Club guys should be running in club events. If you are not a 'pro' then you dont run in ProRally. The definition of "Pro" has changed recently and a guy who only does a handful of events in a less than top spec car is NOT a PRO.
It sucks for the guys who have been doing this for years to get pushed out....and to have to run in club events. But if the factory teams attract enough attention then the club events will eventually become more well funded.
If you want the sport to grow then you have to accept the factory teams and appreciate the fact that they are getting more people involved.
If you don't want the sport to grow, and would rather have rallying be some secret underground sport that only a handful of guys participate in then its fine by me to complain about the factory teams.
If you had the opportunity to try and get sponsorship would you take it?
Would you be interested in doing more events in a better car? Or do you not have time and just don't want to deal with it all?
Club guys should be running in club events. If you are not a 'pro' then you dont run in ProRally. The definition of "Pro" has changed recently and a guy who only does a handful of events in a less than top spec car is NOT a PRO.
It sucks for the guys who have been doing this for years to get pushed out....and to have to run in club events. But if the factory teams attract enough attention then the club events will eventually become more well funded.
If you want the sport to grow then you have to accept the factory teams and appreciate the fact that they are getting more people involved.
If you don't want the sport to grow, and would rather have rallying be some secret underground sport that only a handful of guys participate in then its fine by me to complain about the factory teams.
If you had the opportunity to try and get sponsorship would you take it?
Would you be interested in doing more events in a better car? Or do you not have time and just don't want to deal with it all?
| Jon Bogert | 07-11-2002 11:15 AM |
You sound like Kurt Spitzner (SCCA rally marketing guy, for anyone who's reading along) two years ago. He had some grand plans, including a fanciful "trickle down" philosophy.
Fortunately things are changing soon for the better. The current proposal--which is gaining huge support within the community--is a three tier system.
Basically, the former ProRallyists who have been forcibly reclassified as ClubRallyists will form the middle tier, with the 10-15 manufacturer and rich-guy cars above them in their own class, and the beginners and really low budget folks in a bottom tier.
The mainstream events, the ProRallies and larger ClubRallies, will be targeting primarily at the middle tier. The biggest and best financed events (like STPR) can also be a true "Pro" event and admit the factory teams.
The smaller, co-efficient 1 and 2 ClubRallies can have a beginner/low budget focus and provide a venue where low-seed rallyists can run and have fun.
It's a plan that treats everyone fairly and doesn't shovel too much of the brown stuff on the core stakeholders of American rallying.
Fortunately things are changing soon for the better. The current proposal--which is gaining huge support within the community--is a three tier system.
Basically, the former ProRallyists who have been forcibly reclassified as ClubRallyists will form the middle tier, with the 10-15 manufacturer and rich-guy cars above them in their own class, and the beginners and really low budget folks in a bottom tier.
The mainstream events, the ProRallies and larger ClubRallies, will be targeting primarily at the middle tier. The biggest and best financed events (like STPR) can also be a true "Pro" event and admit the factory teams.
The smaller, co-efficient 1 and 2 ClubRallies can have a beginner/low budget focus and provide a venue where low-seed rallyists can run and have fun.
It's a plan that treats everyone fairly and doesn't shovel too much of the brown stuff on the core stakeholders of American rallying.
| WHTWRX | 07-11-2002 11:28 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cyRally [/i]
[B]The moral of the story? Watch rally on TV. Get interested in it. Go to an event and volunteer. Get really into it. Buy a cheap car and build it into a rally car. Go have the time of your life. Live happily ever after. :D [/B][/QUOTE]
Woot! I'm doin just that! Working events in Aug and Sept, goin ta co-driving school at Ridgecrest!
<selfish_plug>
I'll be looking seat time opportunities in the South West region soon after!!
</selfish_plug>
[B]The moral of the story? Watch rally on TV. Get interested in it. Go to an event and volunteer. Get really into it. Buy a cheap car and build it into a rally car. Go have the time of your life. Live happily ever after. :D [/B][/QUOTE]
Woot! I'm doin just that! Working events in Aug and Sept, goin ta co-driving school at Ridgecrest!
<selfish_plug>
I'll be looking seat time opportunities in the South West region soon after!!
</selfish_plug>
| cyRally | 07-11-2002 11:31 AM |
Yes I have read about that plan...it sounds logical to me.
Hopefully it will work out.
[QUOTE]You sound like Kurt Spitzner (SCCA rally marketing guy, for anyone who's reading along) two years ago. He had some grand plans, including a fanciful "trickle down" philosophy.[/QUOTE]
Well somebody has to come up with ideas instead of just complaining about how things are. The point is that ideas are being put out there!
But I am not in charge of anything having to do with how rallying evolves in the USA, I am just voicing my opinions.
So John do you think this three tier thing will make everyone happy?
Hopefully it will work out.
[QUOTE]You sound like Kurt Spitzner (SCCA rally marketing guy, for anyone who's reading along) two years ago. He had some grand plans, including a fanciful "trickle down" philosophy.[/QUOTE]
Well somebody has to come up with ideas instead of just complaining about how things are. The point is that ideas are being put out there!
But I am not in charge of anything having to do with how rallying evolves in the USA, I am just voicing my opinions.
So John do you think this three tier thing will make everyone happy?
| Jon Bogert | 07-11-2002 01:04 PM |
Actually I'm pretty happy right now. I was lucky enough to make seed so I can run any event I want. The costs are going up, which is a bummer, but I've never entered a rally yet where I spent more on the entry than the tires. :( I am worried about the future. I refer so sarcastically to the "trickle down" because Kurt and the manufacturers council have [i]explicitly[/i] walked away from supporting new events. There are zero resources allocated for all these events that will supposedly appear once everyone is strongarmed into running a WRX or EVO.
[u]So the people I'm most concerned about making happy are the organizers.[/u] 500 kids in Subarus coming to watch a rally is great for the teams but you need many more crowd control workers. Also, the factory teams and the marketing infrastructure takes their toll. Some organizers (like John McArthur at STPR) love it all and are apparently willing to spend more money to facilitate the circus. Others (like Rim) see it as one big headache that distracts from the core business of putting on an event for the competitors.
Right now, an organizer must make the choice between ProRally which has prestige, but is a big expensive circus, and ClubRally, which is really small time. A middle ground, similar to ProRally events in the late 90s will help some organizers out of that bind.
Hopefully, it will also produce a more direct sense of cost/benefit for the factory teams. Make the "elite" teams truly separate, they pay much more and they get much more. If it's more segregated, it won't bug all the folks who are paying $900 entry fees and then get treated like dirt as the factory teams whiz by to their special tech inspection, their special practice stages, their prime service locations, etc, etc. If I knew Prodrive was paying the organizer $20k per entry instead of $900, I'd say, "hey, these guys are really supporting this event--good for them!"
[u]So the people I'm most concerned about making happy are the organizers.[/u] 500 kids in Subarus coming to watch a rally is great for the teams but you need many more crowd control workers. Also, the factory teams and the marketing infrastructure takes their toll. Some organizers (like John McArthur at STPR) love it all and are apparently willing to spend more money to facilitate the circus. Others (like Rim) see it as one big headache that distracts from the core business of putting on an event for the competitors.
Right now, an organizer must make the choice between ProRally which has prestige, but is a big expensive circus, and ClubRally, which is really small time. A middle ground, similar to ProRally events in the late 90s will help some organizers out of that bind.
Hopefully, it will also produce a more direct sense of cost/benefit for the factory teams. Make the "elite" teams truly separate, they pay much more and they get much more. If it's more segregated, it won't bug all the folks who are paying $900 entry fees and then get treated like dirt as the factory teams whiz by to their special tech inspection, their special practice stages, their prime service locations, etc, etc. If I knew Prodrive was paying the organizer $20k per entry instead of $900, I'd say, "hey, these guys are really supporting this event--good for them!"
| cyRally | 07-11-2002 01:16 PM |
How do you feel about prize funds? If we got a series sponsor, then maybe we could have a legitimate prize fund where club level guys could actually make back a good portion of their costs. Plus if a series sponsor provided money to the organizers that clears up the issues with crowd control costs and crazy entry fees.
My point being is that if you consider the marketing side of things then maybe one day we can get a sponsor to help bring costs down.
But if all the club guys ignore the marketing aspect then it will never happen. Marketing brings fans. Fans bring sponsors. Sponsors bring money. Hopefully this money can be used to help make things easier, better, cheaper, more fun etc....
Does anybody else have anything to say about this? I know over at special stage that this is the hot topic...but here at the i-club there are mostly fans and not competitors. Anybody out there have an opinion?
My point being is that if you consider the marketing side of things then maybe one day we can get a sponsor to help bring costs down.
But if all the club guys ignore the marketing aspect then it will never happen. Marketing brings fans. Fans bring sponsors. Sponsors bring money. Hopefully this money can be used to help make things easier, better, cheaper, more fun etc....
Does anybody else have anything to say about this? I know over at special stage that this is the hot topic...but here at the i-club there are mostly fans and not competitors. Anybody out there have an opinion?
| WagonMonster | 07-11-2002 01:38 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]
Hopefully, it will also produce a more direct sense of cost/benefit for the factory teams. Make the "elite" teams truly separate, they pay much more and they get much more. If it's more segregated, it won't bug all the folks who are paying $900 entry fees and then get treated like dirt as the factory teams whiz by to their special tech inspection, their special practice stages, their prime service locations, etc, etc. If I knew Prodrive was paying the organizer $20k per entry instead of $900, I'd say, "hey, these guys are really supporting this event--good for them!" [/B][/QUOTE]
So far in this debate I've agreed whole heartedly with cyrally, but in this case Jon makes an EXCELLENT point.
This very scenario took place at Oregon Trail this past April. I was working service for my friends and was driving the service van to the day 2 service area. When I got there, it was really nice and paved and with real bathrooms, etc. When I asked where I could park the van, I was informed that this service area was for the top seeds and I was to go 5 miles down the road to "service area 2" which was basically a muddy gravel pit with a porta-potty.
My friends payed the same entry fee as the guys who got to service at the "nice" service area, and that's just not fair.
[B]
Hopefully, it will also produce a more direct sense of cost/benefit for the factory teams. Make the "elite" teams truly separate, they pay much more and they get much more. If it's more segregated, it won't bug all the folks who are paying $900 entry fees and then get treated like dirt as the factory teams whiz by to their special tech inspection, their special practice stages, their prime service locations, etc, etc. If I knew Prodrive was paying the organizer $20k per entry instead of $900, I'd say, "hey, these guys are really supporting this event--good for them!" [/B][/QUOTE]
So far in this debate I've agreed whole heartedly with cyrally, but in this case Jon makes an EXCELLENT point.
This very scenario took place at Oregon Trail this past April. I was working service for my friends and was driving the service van to the day 2 service area. When I got there, it was really nice and paved and with real bathrooms, etc. When I asked where I could park the van, I was informed that this service area was for the top seeds and I was to go 5 miles down the road to "service area 2" which was basically a muddy gravel pit with a porta-potty.
My friends payed the same entry fee as the guys who got to service at the "nice" service area, and that's just not fair.
| jmullan | 07-11-2002 06:27 PM |
[QUOTE]I refer so sarcastically to the "trickle down" because Kurt and the manufacturers council have explicitly walked away from supporting new events. There are zero resources allocated for all these events that will supposedly appear once everyone is strongarmed into running a WRX or EVO.[/QUOTE]
Kurt and the manufacturers council are tasked with dealing with ProRally. If you don't have enough support in your region for new events, perhaps the person that you need to complain to is your region's ClubRally steward. They are tasked with supporting your new event - unless your new event is a ProRally. [i]Are you[/i] organizing a new event this year?
[QUOTE]So the people I'm most concerned about making happy are the organizers.[/QUOTE]
Hmm. That's a very interesting comment. I'm an organizer, and you have yet to say anything that makes me happy.
[QUOTE]500 kids in Subarus coming to watch a rally is great for the teams but you need many more crowd control workers.[/QUOTE]
An event just needs to be able to convert spectators into workers. Events struggle with this every day, from the smallest rallysprint to the largest ProRally. When I am at the Arkansaw rallysprint tomorrow as a worker, I'm sure we will be wishing that we had 500 kids in Subarus there so that we could recruit some workers (at gunpoint if need be).
Kurt and the manufacturers council are tasked with dealing with ProRally. If you don't have enough support in your region for new events, perhaps the person that you need to complain to is your region's ClubRally steward. They are tasked with supporting your new event - unless your new event is a ProRally. [i]Are you[/i] organizing a new event this year?
[QUOTE]So the people I'm most concerned about making happy are the organizers.[/QUOTE]
Hmm. That's a very interesting comment. I'm an organizer, and you have yet to say anything that makes me happy.
[QUOTE]500 kids in Subarus coming to watch a rally is great for the teams but you need many more crowd control workers.[/QUOTE]
An event just needs to be able to convert spectators into workers. Events struggle with this every day, from the smallest rallysprint to the largest ProRally. When I am at the Arkansaw rallysprint tomorrow as a worker, I'm sure we will be wishing that we had 500 kids in Subarus there so that we could recruit some workers (at gunpoint if need be).
| OnTheGas | 07-11-2002 09:34 PM |
Whattabout Rim Next Year - Pro or Club?
Speaking of organizers... whattabout next year's [b]Rim[/b]... is it gonna be a Pro Rally, a Club Rally, or something in between?
What's the current thinking by the Gibeaults?
Any guesses as to what is likely to happen?
What's the current thinking by the Gibeaults?
Any guesses as to what is likely to happen?
| WRXMaster | 07-12-2002 01:42 AM |
What really needs to happen is...
IF you havea sponsored championship. Decorating cars with sponsors and good TV coverage. You would reduce parts/costs and bring out better competion. Right now PRorally is for people that have good connections and alot of money. From what I have been told its better to start out in rally young. I went to a prorally and tried talking to some of the rally drivers and they were jerks. I wont say any names. I am getting a degree in marketing.
Good steps on getting a good Championship going.
1. SPONSORS/ GOOD TV COVERAGE
2. BETTER ORGANIZED EVENTS FOR THE MASSES
3. GOOD TV COVERAGE
4. MORE CARS
Guys with no money like me need prize money to help with the costs. I hate nascar but I think rally cars need to be advertisements to help get more people into the sport
Good steps on getting a good Championship going.
1. SPONSORS/ GOOD TV COVERAGE
2. BETTER ORGANIZED EVENTS FOR THE MASSES
3. GOOD TV COVERAGE
4. MORE CARS
Guys with no money like me need prize money to help with the costs. I hate nascar but I think rally cars need to be advertisements to help get more people into the sport
| Subie Gal | 07-12-2002 09:34 AM |
Re: Whattabout Rim Next Year - Pro or Club?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OnTheGas [/i]
Speaking of organizers... whattabout next year's [b]Rim[/b]... is it gonna be a Pro Rally, a Club Rally, or something in between?[/QUOTE]
it's going to be a club rally only.... not a pro rally
[quote]What's the current thinking by the Gibeaults? [/quote]
they are thinking.... they bust their butts for SCCA pro rally and get nothing in return.. no financial support or other wise.
they are thinking... that all they get is a pat on the back and we'll see ya next year...
they are [b]THINKING!!![/b] and good for them!
I hope others follow their lead... Paula and Mike put on the best rally show in the country.... now they are putting it on for those that appreciate it most... the grassroots butt busting bunch... like myself.... ;)
[quote]Any guesses as to what is likely to happen? [/quote]
sure... not many pro rally cars will show up... but there will be about ? 60 club rally cars... it will still be a good show... and will STILL have great attendance!!! and Subaru (western region...) will STILL support their efforts... unlike SCCA Pro Rally....
i'll be there! :D
cheers!
jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
Speaking of organizers... whattabout next year's [b]Rim[/b]... is it gonna be a Pro Rally, a Club Rally, or something in between?[/QUOTE]
it's going to be a club rally only.... not a pro rally
[quote]What's the current thinking by the Gibeaults? [/quote]
they are thinking.... they bust their butts for SCCA pro rally and get nothing in return.. no financial support or other wise.
they are thinking... that all they get is a pat on the back and we'll see ya next year...
they are [b]THINKING!!![/b] and good for them!
I hope others follow their lead... Paula and Mike put on the best rally show in the country.... now they are putting it on for those that appreciate it most... the grassroots butt busting bunch... like myself.... ;)
[quote]Any guesses as to what is likely to happen? [/quote]
sure... not many pro rally cars will show up... but there will be about ? 60 club rally cars... it will still be a good show... and will STILL have great attendance!!! and Subaru (western region...) will STILL support their efforts... unlike SCCA Pro Rally....
i'll be there! :D
cheers!
jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Jon Bogert | 07-12-2002 10:35 AM |
Jesse, your ClubRally steward can't do much without help from above. I understand things are a bit different in the midwest, but here in NEDiv the ProRally department has a huge negative impact on ClubRally. Our series has been gutted with the loss of three Coef 3 and one Coef 2 events to ProRally.
Our steward, Greg Healey, is hardworking and doing all he can. Greg has personally created two events: Sand Blast in SC and Black River in NY. However, it is not part of the steward's job as a volunteer to dip into his own wallet!
Talk to ClubRally stewards in the various regions. You won't find too many supporters of what's going on right now (other than your own notorious establishment cheerleader Bruce, of course ;) ).
Our steward, Greg Healey, is hardworking and doing all he can. Greg has personally created two events: Sand Blast in SC and Black River in NY. However, it is not part of the steward's job as a volunteer to dip into his own wallet!
Talk to ClubRally stewards in the various regions. You won't find too many supporters of what's going on right now (other than your own notorious establishment cheerleader Bruce, of course ;) ).
| Red-Impreza | 07-12-2002 11:04 AM |
Similar story in Arizona
[QUOTE]Whattabout Rim Next Year...
it's going to be a club rally only[/QUOTE]
This is not an isolated occurence, it's a trend. The Prescott Forest Rally was dropped from the pro schecule this year and will be a Club Rally only. I know the organizer (he's on this board, I'll see if I can direct him here).
As a fan I think it sucks. It really hurts the base of rally enthusiasts in AZ. My impression was that the rally was a little too rough for the pros (they don't like breaking their cars and looking bad). Maybe there was some of that same problem at Rim (it is another rough one). I feel that kind of thinking is bad for the sport. It also seems to me that SCCA Pro rally has become very political lately. (Maybe it's alway been that way. I've only been following it for a couple of years.)
I think Jon's softball analogy might be a little too accurate. Anybody can get involved in a local league (similar to rallycross). If you can afford the equipment and devote the time you can play in the minors (Club Rally). However, if you want to play with the pros you have to play different kind of game (hardball) and put up with the marketing BS. I'm not sure if I like it, but it might be Rally's future in the US.
-Bud
it's going to be a club rally only[/QUOTE]
This is not an isolated occurence, it's a trend. The Prescott Forest Rally was dropped from the pro schecule this year and will be a Club Rally only. I know the organizer (he's on this board, I'll see if I can direct him here).
As a fan I think it sucks. It really hurts the base of rally enthusiasts in AZ. My impression was that the rally was a little too rough for the pros (they don't like breaking their cars and looking bad). Maybe there was some of that same problem at Rim (it is another rough one). I feel that kind of thinking is bad for the sport. It also seems to me that SCCA Pro rally has become very political lately. (Maybe it's alway been that way. I've only been following it for a couple of years.)
I think Jon's softball analogy might be a little too accurate. Anybody can get involved in a local league (similar to rallycross). If you can afford the equipment and devote the time you can play in the minors (Club Rally). However, if you want to play with the pros you have to play different kind of game (hardball) and put up with the marketing BS. I'm not sure if I like it, but it might be Rally's future in the US.
-Bud
| WagonMonster | 07-12-2002 12:33 PM |
Re: Re: Whattabout Rim Next Year - Pro or Club?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subie Gal [/i]
[B]
and Subaru (western region...) will STILL support their efforts... unlike SCCA Pro Rally....
cheers!
jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure about that. I heard from people with close ties to Subaru that the Gibeaults pulled the plug on the ProRally for 2003 without consulting Subaru, Mitsubishi, Hyundai or any of their big sponsors. Subaru only heard about it [i]after[/i] the decision and were understandably miffed about it, and I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled back from their sponsorship of next year's event. And you can forget about any TV coverage.
While I can certainly understand the Gibeaults frustration with the SCCA, this can only be seen as a step-back for professional rally in the United States.
[B]
and Subaru (western region...) will STILL support their efforts... unlike SCCA Pro Rally....
cheers!
jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure about that. I heard from people with close ties to Subaru that the Gibeaults pulled the plug on the ProRally for 2003 without consulting Subaru, Mitsubishi, Hyundai or any of their big sponsors. Subaru only heard about it [i]after[/i] the decision and were understandably miffed about it, and I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled back from their sponsorship of next year's event. And you can forget about any TV coverage.
While I can certainly understand the Gibeaults frustration with the SCCA, this can only be seen as a step-back for professional rally in the United States.
| jmullan | 07-12-2002 01:48 PM |
Did anyone notice that the editing of the Rim show was excellent? Kudos to Replica production for a show with good pacing. Now if they could only double the length, cover more than just the race winners, and bring up the volume on the engine sounds. :) I missed seeing full results for the classes.
| cyRally | 07-12-2002 01:56 PM |
I agree...good show. It was much better than past shows.
The narration was good, footage was excellent...the helicopter shots were the best.
I am sure it is tough to fit a 2 day race into 23 minutes (minus commercials).
I would also like to see at least some footage without any narration! Lets hear those engines, and the codriver etc....
But overall it was still great to watch. Even if the WRC stuff is still leaps and bounds better the ProRally show is still very enjoyable!
The narration was good, footage was excellent...the helicopter shots were the best.
I am sure it is tough to fit a 2 day race into 23 minutes (minus commercials).
I would also like to see at least some footage without any narration! Lets hear those engines, and the codriver etc....
But overall it was still great to watch. Even if the WRC stuff is still leaps and bounds better the ProRally show is still very enjoyable!
| Subie Gal | 07-12-2002 02:06 PM |
it should be an hour show...
it should reflect ALL of the rally
not just the manufacturers...
it should be a lot of things..
but $ talks eh?
still.. some of the footage was cool
and GO AV SPORT!! get some! :D
Jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
it should reflect ALL of the rally
not just the manufacturers...
it should be a lot of things..
but $ talks eh?
still.. some of the footage was cool
and GO AV SPORT!! get some! :D
Jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
| jmullan | 07-12-2002 02:15 PM |
Whaddya want for free?
| cyRally | 07-12-2002 02:23 PM |
Until we have a major series sponsor to pay the bill you will NOT be seeing much else but the manufacturer's cars and whoever is good enough to beat them.
Hyundai, Subaru and Mitsu pay alot of money to get that show on TV and there simply is not enough time to cover everyone else.
Hyundai, Subaru and Mitsu pay alot of money to get that show on TV and there simply is not enough time to cover everyone else.
| WagonMonster | 07-12-2002 03:06 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cyRally [/i]
[B]Until we have a major series sponsor to pay the bill you will NOT be seeing much else but the manufacturer's cars and whoever is good enough to beat them.
Hyundai, Subaru and Mitsu pay alot of money to get that show on TV and there simply is not enough time to cover everyone else. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, what he said ;)
[B]Until we have a major series sponsor to pay the bill you will NOT be seeing much else but the manufacturer's cars and whoever is good enough to beat them.
Hyundai, Subaru and Mitsu pay alot of money to get that show on TV and there simply is not enough time to cover everyone else. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, what he said ;)
| Jon Bogert | 07-12-2002 03:19 PM |
So if VT SportsCar had to not run any cars for a season or two, it would be worth it if we got a series sponsor at the end? Sure it would cost Lance a lot of money--maybe his business--but a little sacrifice is worth it for the end result, right?
The fact is that VT SportsCar is doing pretty well in the New World Order, aren't they?
It's pretty good business letting [i]others[/i] make sacrifices, huh?
I propose VT SportsCar sponsors a ClubRally in NEDiv this year. It's easy for me to propose that since it's not my money. :lol:
The fact is that VT SportsCar is doing pretty well in the New World Order, aren't they?
It's pretty good business letting [i]others[/i] make sacrifices, huh?
I propose VT SportsCar sponsors a ClubRally in NEDiv this year. It's easy for me to propose that since it's not my money. :lol:
| Subie Gal | 07-12-2002 03:24 PM |
Jon.. u r still my hero :D
i just cant wait until the SCCA "club"
becomes the SCCA "series" and the "series " gets the representation it deserves....
some day eh? :)
we'll soon see w/the changes in FIA wrc events if we are flooded w/Gp A cars and the likes... there will NEED TO BE some major changes...
Jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
i just cant wait until the SCCA "club"
becomes the SCCA "series" and the "series " gets the representation it deserves....
some day eh? :)
we'll soon see w/the changes in FIA wrc events if we are flooded w/Gp A cars and the likes... there will NEED TO BE some major changes...
Jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Jon Bogert | 07-12-2002 03:32 PM |
And let's not forget that we had a series sponsor... right up until the current regime took over control of ProRally.
So, we have a sponsor for all the most "amateur" years of ProRally, yet now we need to turn the series upside down and professionalize at all costs--in order to get a series sponsor?
Sounds like someone is making excuses for not being very good at recruiting sponsors... ;)
So, we have a sponsor for all the most "amateur" years of ProRally, yet now we need to turn the series upside down and professionalize at all costs--in order to get a series sponsor?
Sounds like someone is making excuses for not being very good at recruiting sponsors... ;)
| cyRally | 07-12-2002 03:37 PM |
Firstly I dont really understand what your saying. It doesnt make much sense.
We dont run cars. We run customer cars.
Our client's cars do well because they are built well. We don't care about getting on TV. We care about making the customer happy and giving him the best possible car to go have fun with.
We have cars that were built for club and pro level competitors.
It is our intent to get involved in development of clubrally events.
And just for your information we are working on helping out a clubrally!! :)
So don't speak too soon.
We have a limited budget but we want to help in any way we can.
[QUOTE]It's pretty good business letting others make sacrifices, huh?[/QUOTE]
huh? We simply build rally cars...we dont make millions of dollars doing it either. We don't have a team car that we spend our money on like AV Sport does, maybe you should ask them this same question?
We dont run cars. We run customer cars.
Our client's cars do well because they are built well. We don't care about getting on TV. We care about making the customer happy and giving him the best possible car to go have fun with.
We have cars that were built for club and pro level competitors.
It is our intent to get involved in development of clubrally events.
And just for your information we are working on helping out a clubrally!! :)
So don't speak too soon.
We have a limited budget but we want to help in any way we can.
[QUOTE]It's pretty good business letting others make sacrifices, huh?[/QUOTE]
huh? We simply build rally cars...we dont make millions of dollars doing it either. We don't have a team car that we spend our money on like AV Sport does, maybe you should ask them this same question?
| Jon Bogert | 07-12-2002 04:01 PM |
[QUOTE]Firstly I dont really understand what your saying. It doesnt make much sense. [/QUOTE]
Well, I'm sure you weren't helping Prodrive for free. ;) And what types of cars are you building most these days? Golfs for Clubbies with $1500 to spend... or EVOs and WRXs?
[QUOTE]we are working on helping out a clubrally!![/QUOTE]
Glad to hear you guys are going to be giving back to the community! :)
So what happened with your Prodrive deal anyway--I heard rumors that things fell apart? Do you still have a relationship with them?
Well, I'm sure you weren't helping Prodrive for free. ;) And what types of cars are you building most these days? Golfs for Clubbies with $1500 to spend... or EVOs and WRXs?
[QUOTE]we are working on helping out a clubrally!![/QUOTE]
Glad to hear you guys are going to be giving back to the community! :)
So what happened with your Prodrive deal anyway--I heard rumors that things fell apart? Do you still have a relationship with them?
| cyRally | 07-12-2002 04:16 PM |
The point is: We are not swimming in money. We worked with Prodrive and got paid but your crazy to think that it would give us enough money to go out and sponsor an entire race etc...:lol:
We still have a good relationship with them. I won't go into details about why we aren't working with them but don't get any ideas...there were no hard feelings and no hidden agendas.
There are plenty of shops out there that can build a $2000 club car. We specialize in building cars that can win Championships. But we don't sit here and say "oh we are not going to build any club cars" We build whatever the client wants.
Yes we are trying to get involved with club events and entry level competitors, and pretty soon you will understand what I mean........;)
John, this is the most I have ever posted in one day....your killing me!:D
We still have a good relationship with them. I won't go into details about why we aren't working with them but don't get any ideas...there were no hard feelings and no hidden agendas.
There are plenty of shops out there that can build a $2000 club car. We specialize in building cars that can win Championships. But we don't sit here and say "oh we are not going to build any club cars" We build whatever the client wants.
Yes we are trying to get involved with club events and entry level competitors, and pretty soon you will understand what I mean........;)
John, this is the most I have ever posted in one day....your killing me!:D
| Jon Bogert | 07-12-2002 04:33 PM |
Hahahaha, there are [i]always[/i] hidden agendas! :lol: ;)
Yeah, I've been doing graphics today on a slow PC. Apply filter, check i-Club, apply filter, check i-Club... :D
Yeah, I've been doing graphics today on a slow PC. Apply filter, check i-Club, apply filter, check i-Club... :D
| jmullan | 07-12-2002 05:26 PM |
Just a quick question, Jon, what exactly was your last contribution to Rally in your region?
| WHTWRX | 07-12-2002 06:29 PM |
Re: Re: Re: Whattabout Rim Next Year - Pro or Club?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WagonMonster [/i]
[B]While I can certainly understand the Gibeaults frustration with the SCCA, this can only be seen as a step-back for professional rally in the United States. [/B][/QUOTE]
I get the impression that the actions taken by the Gibeaults was about the only thing they could do to get some eyebrows raised back at SCCA HQ. It's kind of like throwing a glass of ice water in someone's face to get their undivided attention.
By pulling out just after the event, there's an entire year to work out this mess between the organizers, SCCA, and the sponsors. I would imagine Subaru would put some pressure on the SCCA to get the organizers the support they need.
I bought my WRX [i]because[/i] of my experience from attending the rally. My god, I've never seen so many (700+ WRXs) Subaru fanatics. The word of mouth advertising I was bombared with from happy customers is the best kind Subaru could ever hope to purchase with their Sponsor dollars. Damn, have a Subaru Series if that's what it takes to get onto the world scene with American talent.
I'm puzzled as to why the SCCA can get a touring [b][i]series[/i][/b] sponsored by Speed Channel, but can't do anything nearly as good for Rally, which appears to be one of their "big three" things they love to write about in [i]SportsCar[/i] (the other two being Club Racing and Solo).
Personally, I think ClubRally should be a part of the Pro event. It's like a support race at a CART event. But run them at different times or on different days, and entry fees should be proportional. (Have less stages if that's whats required to keep ClubRally costs down).
[B]While I can certainly understand the Gibeaults frustration with the SCCA, this can only be seen as a step-back for professional rally in the United States. [/B][/QUOTE]
I get the impression that the actions taken by the Gibeaults was about the only thing they could do to get some eyebrows raised back at SCCA HQ. It's kind of like throwing a glass of ice water in someone's face to get their undivided attention.
By pulling out just after the event, there's an entire year to work out this mess between the organizers, SCCA, and the sponsors. I would imagine Subaru would put some pressure on the SCCA to get the organizers the support they need.
I bought my WRX [i]because[/i] of my experience from attending the rally. My god, I've never seen so many (700+ WRXs) Subaru fanatics. The word of mouth advertising I was bombared with from happy customers is the best kind Subaru could ever hope to purchase with their Sponsor dollars. Damn, have a Subaru Series if that's what it takes to get onto the world scene with American talent.
I'm puzzled as to why the SCCA can get a touring [b][i]series[/i][/b] sponsored by Speed Channel, but can't do anything nearly as good for Rally, which appears to be one of their "big three" things they love to write about in [i]SportsCar[/i] (the other two being Club Racing and Solo).
Personally, I think ClubRally should be a part of the Pro event. It's like a support race at a CART event. But run them at different times or on different days, and entry fees should be proportional. (Have less stages if that's whats required to keep ClubRally costs down).
| Bill.B | 07-12-2002 09:09 PM |
I'll jump in here, and add what I can in the short time I have before my dinner engagement.. sorry for the quick responces...
SCCA time on SPEED is a time buy in, they don't give a rats arse who is watching. They had to come up with a suitcase of 100's to get them to play ball. Rumor has it the manufacturers will NOT be footing the bill next year. I'll let everyone make their own assumptions for next years coverage...
Rim did what they had to do to get the attention of the SCCA, although that was not their intention. They will be a club event next year for sure, and will still get 50-60 cars. It will still be one of the best events in the states, and it will be well attended.
Rim does not have to answer to it's sponsors, and as far as I know only Subaru had any involvement, and it was not a huge monetary involvement at that. I could be wrong though. Don't get me wrong, everyone fully appreciates everything that Subaru West Coast has done in the SW, but SOA has known about the issues for over a year now.
The third tier will not happen for MANY years if at all. The SCCA does not listen to ot's members anymore WRT ProRally, it is now a business, and they will run it the way they want to run it. The sooner everyone accepts that the better off they will all be. Do I like it, no, it pisses me off. Is there anything I can do about it, no, and I now understand that the Performance Rally Department of the SCCA is only your friend when they need something from you, and could care less about you all the rest of the time.
OK, the above comment may spark a fire, here's my backup - PFR was going to die in 2000, no one was going to organize it because of various reasons... I get a call from Kurt - can I do something to keep the event going. Sure no problemo, I take over. Turns out they had already sold the TV and theirs butts were in a sling if it didn't happen. Fast Forward to 2001, where we had some, VERY FIXABLE, event issues. We get kicked out of the Pro series, no letter why, no explination from the SCCA, nothing. make up your own mind....
what am I forgetting......
series sponsor... we had one, now we dont...
the organizers are the ones that make things happen. We do this cause it is fun. Many of us go deep into debt at times to do it, hoping we'll get the turnout we need to break even. Many times we dont, but come close...
I am also a club rally steward in training, the club events and competitors are what is making this thing work and stay afloat. without them the 'Pro' guys would be paying $4000.00 entry fees, like they should be. And 'Pro'... give me a freakin break... look up the word and use it correctly... the only 'pro' thing happening is the prep shops, and a VERY small group of drivers.
watch the event.. I did, it was great!!! loved the coverage... you want club coverage, check out [url]www.flatovercrest.com[/url] . we're doing it now, and will more than likely be at Rim next year, doing it there... TV for the masses... not just the top 3, (or 2 in Jamies case)....
gotta go run to dinner, already late... hit me up with things that i missed...
Bill Barfoot
ArizonaRallySport.com
SCCA time on SPEED is a time buy in, they don't give a rats arse who is watching. They had to come up with a suitcase of 100's to get them to play ball. Rumor has it the manufacturers will NOT be footing the bill next year. I'll let everyone make their own assumptions for next years coverage...
Rim did what they had to do to get the attention of the SCCA, although that was not their intention. They will be a club event next year for sure, and will still get 50-60 cars. It will still be one of the best events in the states, and it will be well attended.
Rim does not have to answer to it's sponsors, and as far as I know only Subaru had any involvement, and it was not a huge monetary involvement at that. I could be wrong though. Don't get me wrong, everyone fully appreciates everything that Subaru West Coast has done in the SW, but SOA has known about the issues for over a year now.
The third tier will not happen for MANY years if at all. The SCCA does not listen to ot's members anymore WRT ProRally, it is now a business, and they will run it the way they want to run it. The sooner everyone accepts that the better off they will all be. Do I like it, no, it pisses me off. Is there anything I can do about it, no, and I now understand that the Performance Rally Department of the SCCA is only your friend when they need something from you, and could care less about you all the rest of the time.
OK, the above comment may spark a fire, here's my backup - PFR was going to die in 2000, no one was going to organize it because of various reasons... I get a call from Kurt - can I do something to keep the event going. Sure no problemo, I take over. Turns out they had already sold the TV and theirs butts were in a sling if it didn't happen. Fast Forward to 2001, where we had some, VERY FIXABLE, event issues. We get kicked out of the Pro series, no letter why, no explination from the SCCA, nothing. make up your own mind....
what am I forgetting......
series sponsor... we had one, now we dont...
the organizers are the ones that make things happen. We do this cause it is fun. Many of us go deep into debt at times to do it, hoping we'll get the turnout we need to break even. Many times we dont, but come close...
I am also a club rally steward in training, the club events and competitors are what is making this thing work and stay afloat. without them the 'Pro' guys would be paying $4000.00 entry fees, like they should be. And 'Pro'... give me a freakin break... look up the word and use it correctly... the only 'pro' thing happening is the prep shops, and a VERY small group of drivers.
watch the event.. I did, it was great!!! loved the coverage... you want club coverage, check out [url]www.flatovercrest.com[/url] . we're doing it now, and will more than likely be at Rim next year, doing it there... TV for the masses... not just the top 3, (or 2 in Jamies case)....
gotta go run to dinner, already late... hit me up with things that i missed...
Bill Barfoot
ArizonaRallySport.com
| Jon Bogert | 07-12-2002 11:26 PM |
Thanks for jumping in, Bill. :)
Jesse, do you really think I'd shoot my mouth off so much if I didn't at least have little inside perspective? ;)
FWIW, I'm on the Sawmill organizing committee. For the past two years, I've done the scoring for that ClubRally. I'm not out crawling through the woods looking for roads--that's a job much better suited to those lucky enough to live farther from the city than I do--but my SCCA region (Blue Mountain) supplies workers and "skill" positions for four of the rallies in NEDiv, including both Pros. I've been a stage captain, run sweep, laid out routes, and done a helluva lot more working on events than most of the drivers out there.
You'd be amazed how many NEDiv drivers show up to spectate when they're not driving--but somehow never volunteer to work a control...
Now, Jesse, why don't you ask that question of every seed FIA, 0, and 1 (and even 2) driver? I bet 90% of them haven't done anything except drive in the last year. Perhaps Mark Lovell can come out and do some spectator control at a ClubRally sometime? :lol:
Jesse, do you really think I'd shoot my mouth off so much if I didn't at least have little inside perspective? ;)
FWIW, I'm on the Sawmill organizing committee. For the past two years, I've done the scoring for that ClubRally. I'm not out crawling through the woods looking for roads--that's a job much better suited to those lucky enough to live farther from the city than I do--but my SCCA region (Blue Mountain) supplies workers and "skill" positions for four of the rallies in NEDiv, including both Pros. I've been a stage captain, run sweep, laid out routes, and done a helluva lot more working on events than most of the drivers out there.
You'd be amazed how many NEDiv drivers show up to spectate when they're not driving--but somehow never volunteer to work a control...
Now, Jesse, why don't you ask that question of every seed FIA, 0, and 1 (and even 2) driver? I bet 90% of them haven't done anything except drive in the last year. Perhaps Mark Lovell can come out and do some spectator control at a ClubRally sometime? :lol:
| jmullan | 07-13-2002 04:29 AM |
If the top seeded drivers don't work that's their problem. If they don't work and trash ProRally at every possible instance that would be cause for a major flame war. At least I don't have to bitch you out for that.
We all love rally. Many changes are happening rapidly, some of them painful, and some in the wrong direction. I'm all for impassioned discussion as long as it is discussion towards a point. There just doesn't seem to be a whole lot of point in what is being said, besides "ProRally sucks" and "manufacturers suck".
(long, witty, sarcastic, and funny rant deleted, because I was getting out of control)
We all love rally. Many changes are happening rapidly, some of them painful, and some in the wrong direction. I'm all for impassioned discussion as long as it is discussion towards a point. There just doesn't seem to be a whole lot of point in what is being said, besides "ProRally sucks" and "manufacturers suck".
(long, witty, sarcastic, and funny rant deleted, because I was getting out of control)
| Red-Impreza | 07-13-2002 02:19 PM |
The one thing that's obvious to even the most unitiated (like myself) is that something's broken. Rally is more popular then ever in the states, yet we keep losing pro events. First PFR, now Rim. How do we fix it?
| Jon Bogert | 07-13-2002 03:01 PM |
[QUOTE]long, witty, sarcastic, and funny rant deleted[/QUOTE]
You could e-mail it to me. :D :D :D
I hope you don't think I intend to trash ProRally. In my opinion, rallying is the most fun you can have on wheels. I want to do it, help others do it, watch it, etc for the rest of my life.
The way I see it, it's like being a U.S. citizen. If I don't like the President or the majority party in congress, I'm not going to leave the country. Instead I'll speak out and work to change who's in charge.
ProRally is not the problem--the forces that are attempting to take over and use it for their own crass, commercial ends are the problem. Since the first thing they did was change the leadership from a (sort of) democracy to a dictatorship, harsher measures may be required. :mad:
BTW, I've just been chosen as a Nielson household. So when I write down that I'm watching the ProRally and WRC coverage, I'll speak for approximately 20,000 of you. :lol: Oh, the irony!
You could e-mail it to me. :D :D :D
I hope you don't think I intend to trash ProRally. In my opinion, rallying is the most fun you can have on wheels. I want to do it, help others do it, watch it, etc for the rest of my life.
The way I see it, it's like being a U.S. citizen. If I don't like the President or the majority party in congress, I'm not going to leave the country. Instead I'll speak out and work to change who's in charge.
ProRally is not the problem--the forces that are attempting to take over and use it for their own crass, commercial ends are the problem. Since the first thing they did was change the leadership from a (sort of) democracy to a dictatorship, harsher measures may be required. :mad:
BTW, I've just been chosen as a Nielson household. So when I write down that I'm watching the ProRally and WRC coverage, I'll speak for approximately 20,000 of you. :lol: Oh, the irony!
| eastbaysubaru | 07-14-2002 11:09 PM |
Went to Rim, had a blast. I even got on the TV coverage without competing, YEAH! You can see me when they interview Rhys right after he retired, I'm in the back looking at the engine bay in the white t-shirt. It was a great time and needless to say, I was disappointed when I heard that it was not going to be a Prorally next year. Having had the good fortune to attend the Acropolis rally in 2000, I truly hope the problems that the SCCA is having get fixed and we eventually get an FIA/WRC event here in the states.
-Brian
-Brian
| RK Performance | 07-15-2002 04:42 AM |
As a fan of racing I want to say one thing, grow a mullet, stop turning right, and crash into each other more...Then I'll watch!!! :mad:
Actually, I would absolutely love to see coverage of more rally events in America, and I think there are a lot of people out there like me. I talk up rallys quite often these days, and I run into more and more people that are also fairly big fans, more than I thought ever knew about it. It's just the lack of coverage that is losing fans. It seems the politics are screwing everthing up and it's always politics that screw up things that are good. I personally don't get NASCAR TV...uhhh, sorry, speed channel at home but I do watch the WRC at work, which I could get fired for, but what can I say, it's like heroin, you watch once and you're hooked :D . Tonight, I am going to do a little work on my website, [url]www.rkperformance.com.[/url] I will try to add a link to a speed channel email adress or something along those lines and request people to vote for more US Rally coverage. If business goes well I definately will be happy to contribute to US rally. I wish I could help now, but it's the thought that counts right?
I'm all about hitting up the forums, and anywhere else, trying to get more support for rally coverage, how about some people to email? Marketing people from the manufactures?? Maybe do some pettitions??? I don't know, you guys let me know if you think any of this would help, or if I'm out of line here :confused: .
IMHO, what rally needs in america is a role model, someone who can show that anyone can rally. I personally think that Subie Gal would make the best spokesperson! I mean she is the least likely person you would imagine to be a Rally driver. Subaru is stupid for not using her in an ad campain. Subaru talks all about a Rally bread car, and don't put thier money where thier mouth is. They don't even show more than one second of Rally footage in their comercials. The WRX was the first step to popularize Rally in America (or at least bring some awarness), now it's time to really push it by ACTUALLY SHOWING PEOPLE WHAT IT IS!!!! With Subie Gal you have a great driver, a great personality, and one hell of a role model. That, and she really proves that anyone can get into rallying more or less. The idea is so NASCAR, but let's face it, look where NASCAR is today. I mean you talk to the average mullet and they seriously believe that their Monte Carlo is a NASCAR car! They may be idiots, but it sure is making a lot of money for a lot of people. And definately a lot of races. At least a rally car is somewhat close to the one available from the dealer! It's like so many other things though, it could be highly successful, if it was advertised. If americans knew what it was.
I don't know, that's just my fifteen dollars and two cents... am I wrong here??? Does all this make any since??? Sorry for the long post, I could go on for days on this subject. Damn it! I get so worked up. Don't even get me started on Drag racing though...I mean, at least they turn in NASCAR :lol:
-Ryan
:: Imagines Calvin pissing on Pugeot stickers on Imprezas and Focuses, or Calvin pissing on Subaru on Focuses. Imagine if Rally was as popular as NASCAR in this country::
Actually, I would absolutely love to see coverage of more rally events in America, and I think there are a lot of people out there like me. I talk up rallys quite often these days, and I run into more and more people that are also fairly big fans, more than I thought ever knew about it. It's just the lack of coverage that is losing fans. It seems the politics are screwing everthing up and it's always politics that screw up things that are good. I personally don't get NASCAR TV...uhhh, sorry, speed channel at home but I do watch the WRC at work, which I could get fired for, but what can I say, it's like heroin, you watch once and you're hooked :D . Tonight, I am going to do a little work on my website, [url]www.rkperformance.com.[/url] I will try to add a link to a speed channel email adress or something along those lines and request people to vote for more US Rally coverage. If business goes well I definately will be happy to contribute to US rally. I wish I could help now, but it's the thought that counts right?
I'm all about hitting up the forums, and anywhere else, trying to get more support for rally coverage, how about some people to email? Marketing people from the manufactures?? Maybe do some pettitions??? I don't know, you guys let me know if you think any of this would help, or if I'm out of line here :confused: .
IMHO, what rally needs in america is a role model, someone who can show that anyone can rally. I personally think that Subie Gal would make the best spokesperson! I mean she is the least likely person you would imagine to be a Rally driver. Subaru is stupid for not using her in an ad campain. Subaru talks all about a Rally bread car, and don't put thier money where thier mouth is. They don't even show more than one second of Rally footage in their comercials. The WRX was the first step to popularize Rally in America (or at least bring some awarness), now it's time to really push it by ACTUALLY SHOWING PEOPLE WHAT IT IS!!!! With Subie Gal you have a great driver, a great personality, and one hell of a role model. That, and she really proves that anyone can get into rallying more or less. The idea is so NASCAR, but let's face it, look where NASCAR is today. I mean you talk to the average mullet and they seriously believe that their Monte Carlo is a NASCAR car! They may be idiots, but it sure is making a lot of money for a lot of people. And definately a lot of races. At least a rally car is somewhat close to the one available from the dealer! It's like so many other things though, it could be highly successful, if it was advertised. If americans knew what it was.
I don't know, that's just my fifteen dollars and two cents... am I wrong here??? Does all this make any since??? Sorry for the long post, I could go on for days on this subject. Damn it! I get so worked up. Don't even get me started on Drag racing though...I mean, at least they turn in NASCAR :lol:
-Ryan
:: Imagines Calvin pissing on Pugeot stickers on Imprezas and Focuses, or Calvin pissing on Subaru on Focuses. Imagine if Rally was as popular as NASCAR in this country::
| cyRally | 07-15-2002 10:00 AM |
Ryan,
You are on the money. There are alot of us exactly like you: We understand rallying and how amazing and exciting it really is.
But then you realize that 90% of America has no idea that rallying exists..yet you know that a large percentage of those Americans would probably love rallying just as much you do if they could just see that it exists and get exposed to it.
We could go on and on about how great rallying is, why its more fun to spectate, how the cars are more 'real', how the drivers are truly the best drivers etc....
How do we get more people to learn about rallying?
Well of course subaru/hyundai/mitsu should be advertising that it exists...but remember that they are spending millions already so give them some slack.
What I think fans should do is use word of mouth. Tell your friends and coworkers and family all about it. Lend out a video or two. I have gotten all of my friends hooked on rallying...then suddenly they all started buying Subarus too!!:lol:
Think of everyone you know who would probably like rallying, then the next time you are around them show them a video and explain rallying....then they will be hooked like you!
Kinda like brainwashing everyone....;) But its a good brainwash!
You are on the money. There are alot of us exactly like you: We understand rallying and how amazing and exciting it really is.
But then you realize that 90% of America has no idea that rallying exists..yet you know that a large percentage of those Americans would probably love rallying just as much you do if they could just see that it exists and get exposed to it.
We could go on and on about how great rallying is, why its more fun to spectate, how the cars are more 'real', how the drivers are truly the best drivers etc....
How do we get more people to learn about rallying?
Well of course subaru/hyundai/mitsu should be advertising that it exists...but remember that they are spending millions already so give them some slack.
What I think fans should do is use word of mouth. Tell your friends and coworkers and family all about it. Lend out a video or two. I have gotten all of my friends hooked on rallying...then suddenly they all started buying Subarus too!!:lol:
Think of everyone you know who would probably like rallying, then the next time you are around them show them a video and explain rallying....then they will be hooked like you!
Kinda like brainwashing everyone....;) But its a good brainwash!
| RK Performance | 07-15-2002 02:57 PM |
Well, I personally have never rallied. I am no more than a novice autoXer. But, what can I say, I love watching rallys, and I would love to get into it. But what I've noticed in America is a trend of anything popular in Europe, is gettin' popular over here(been a trend for years I would say). So what's the chance of getting a bunch of people involved in some grassroots type advertising(or brainwashing)? Or is it just taking the subject to far? I'll leave it like this, if you guys would be interested in gettting something going, my name is in the hat! Cause damn it...:: preps arm for heroin:: I NEED MORE RALLY!!!!!!!!!:D
By the way...I also bought my subie after getting into the tuner market then saw the rallys on Speed Vision (RIP) which convinced me I needed to get rid of that "H" car before I turn into one of those white boy ricers! Course Subaru could've saved me some money and promoted rally a little more, and I never would have had to consider myself a honda driver. Could've just bought a Subaru in the first place. damn.
By the way...I also bought my subie after getting into the tuner market then saw the rallys on Speed Vision (RIP) which convinced me I needed to get rid of that "H" car before I turn into one of those white boy ricers! Course Subaru could've saved me some money and promoted rally a little more, and I never would have had to consider myself a honda driver. Could've just bought a Subaru in the first place. damn.
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