Thứ Bảy, 17 tháng 12, 2016

Anyone running a wing warmer? part 1

Jon Bogert 06-18-2004 09:02 AM

Anyone running a wing warmer?
I'm not sure that this is supposed to be public knowledge, but some of the top rally teams have started preheating their rear spoilers, then installing them at the last minute before the car leaves service.

I guess it's kind of like tire warmers, but for the wing.

Here's a photo from the Ford service area at Acropolis. Sorry about the quality, but Malcolm Wilson came running over as I snapped the pic and tried to grab the CF card.

I know the stock STI rear wing produces massive downforce, but I almost spun out driving to work last week. I'm thinking that I could plug one of these warmers in my garage, to give me that extra bit of rear grip from bringing the wing up to operating temperature [i]before[/i] my car hits the street.

[IMG]http://images6.fotki.com/v82/photos/4/43328/1034150/IMG_0109-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Subaruski 06-18-2004 09:14 AM

What is the purpose? Thats probably just a protective case for it.
2superblus 06-18-2004 09:29 AM

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
wing warmer
MB38 06-18-2004 10:13 AM

Guaranteed piping hot to your door in 30 minutes or less or it's free!
volleybrad 06-18-2004 10:34 AM

How/Where were you driving to work that you spun out?
Rentalpillow7 06-18-2004 10:37 AM

i want one :o
conker69 06-18-2004 10:50 AM

What the hell?:huh:
Badkarma 06-18-2004 10:55 AM

:huh:
Hank3 06-18-2004 11:24 AM

Maybe there's a bunch of pizzas to be delievered in there :lol:
MB38 06-18-2004 11:27 AM

Remember, the STi wing doesn't produce any real downforce, it's just there for looks. If you want downforce, swap it out with a real wing.
satrya 06-18-2004 11:34 AM

vortex control?
I wonder whether the purpose of that cover was simply to prevent competitors from catching some details that would've been observable when the wing is stationary (say, the first time this version is released), or whether it is to warm the air that pass around the wing.

If it is the latter, I would think that it may be better to place the heating element on the roof and C pillar to get the air in "operating" temperature. Not sure if heated air is advantageous though. In addition, the energy required for the heat generation may offset the benefit.

There is another possibility....

Given the recent aerodynamic optimization and design directions that some rally groups have been experimenting with, they might also be testing some far out concepts. DARPA had a joint program with UCLA, CalTech & 1 private company that successfuly demonstrated control of a delta-winged craft without conventional ailerons, flaps, or other variable angle surfaces. The claim was that it outmaneuvers the conventionally controlled counterpart.

They used an array of distributed pressure sensors and MEMS actuators. The sensors detect where the separation line of the leading edge vortices, and the MEMS actuators interact with the boundary layer at the correct location to affect the vortices. As a result, potential lift (according to a classical wing design) can be varied. [B]The MEMS actuators themselves are only tiny dots that expand to less than a millimeter, so they would be rather invisible when seen on a moving vehicle, but might [U]show up on photos when the vehicle is parked[/U]. --> hence the cover and the rush to put the wing on just before they start.[/B]

It's pretty impressive. Might they be testing something similar? If so, that's really good news (for us consumers). We might be seeing MEMS controlled aero parts pretty soon, maybe.
dr_wheel 06-18-2004 11:51 AM

Hot wings for everyone!

Call me crazy... but what exactly would a warm wing do for you? Make it more flexible? Would that even help? If so, why wouldn't the engineers just use a more pliable material in the first place. Also, wouldn't the wing just cool down after a few minutes at crazy speeds anyway? Just some food for thought. :)
satrya 06-18-2004 12:05 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dr_wheel [/i]
[B]but what exactly would a warm wing do for you?................
Also, wouldn't the wing just cool down after a few minutes at crazy speeds anyway?[/B][/QUOTE]

(disclaimer: to those of you familiar with fluid mechanics, please correct me if I'm wrong)

If this is indeed a wing heater, then the idea may be similar to heating a golf ball to improve its range. I don't play golf so I don't know how common or legal this is, but the argument was that the heat could increase the temperature of air around the object, reducing the density, and in effect, reducing the viscosity / drag.

Afaik, F1 wings are designed to create a tremendous amount of downforce, but at the expense of tremendous amount of drag as well thanks to the high angle of attack. Perhaps they're trying to see how well an agressive wing design can provide downforce while at the same time not cause too much drag penalty by heating the surrounding air. Then again, I would think that downforce would also be affected by the increased temperature.

Regarding the wing cooling down thanks to convection, it's not difficult to devise distributed heating elements on the wing surface anyway. However, as I pointed out in my previous post, I wonder whether the additional energy requirement is worth the benefit.

I still vote for the MEMS vortex control :)
SlideWRX 06-18-2004 03:28 PM

I'll bet that isn't a wing. IIRC the new Ford wings that copy the Peugot style have a secondary spoiler at its base that looks to be an integral part of the wing. Also, remember the new vertical slats that go down to the base.

[IMG]http://rally.racing-live.com/photos/2004/acropole/diapob_016.jpg[/IMG]

My guess is that is a front bumper facia.

Tom
Uncle Scotty 06-18-2004 03:31 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 2superblus [/i]
[B]:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
wing warmer [/B][/QUOTE]


Now [SIZE=7]THAT[/SIZE] is ridiculous....wing warmer [SIZE=4]LMFAO!!!![/SIZE]
Trip McNealy 06-18-2004 03:38 PM

:lol: :lol:
Jon Bogert 06-18-2004 03:49 PM

[QUOTE]My guess is that is a front bumper facia.[/QUOTE]
Now why would anyone want to warm up a bumper... :confused:
.
.
.
Doh--of course--to make it more flexible so it will last longer when the car hits those big rocks! Now it all makes sense. :lol: :lol:
punkrocksailor 06-18-2004 04:52 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MB38 [/i]
[B]Remember, the STi wing doesn't produce any real downforce, it's just there for looks. If you want downforce, swap it out with a real wing. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's not entirely true, there is downforce provided by the lip that the wing mounts to. The purpose of the wing (yes there is one) it to guide that air to that lip, and the side blades are there to keep that air going straight instead of slipping off the side. There most certainly is a purpose to the over-the-top-looking wing we have.
Cheers,
Joel
[url]www.rallitek.com[/url]
CatchMyDrift 06-18-2004 06:25 PM

How much for the hot wings shipped to:
Rim of Yo Mouth Rally
c/o: The crew at
Found
On
Road
Dead

Thank You :rolleyes:
Uncle Scotty 06-18-2004 07:11 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MB38 [/i]
[B]Remember, the STi wing doesn't produce any real downforce, it's just there for looks. If you want downforce, swap it out with a real wing. [/B][/QUOTE]

dood....sometimes I think ya got rocks in ya head....:rolleyes:

I have been in an STi AT SPEED...at bust me, book me, throw away the jailcell forget the key speed.....and I can assure you beyond ANY POSSIBLE DOUBT that the STi wing produces significant downforce...no doubt.
punkrocksailor 06-18-2004 09:40 PM

I can always look to Uncle Scotty to fortify my positions.
Joel
[url]www.rallitek.com[/url]
WRSport 06-18-2004 09:53 PM

Well done Jon Bogert.

A true classic that will not be forgotten!

:lol: :lol:
MB38 06-18-2004 10:10 PM

I, too, have been in an STi at considerable speeds. Regardless of what I post on the subject, however, I suspect that Uncle Scotty will post the opposite. It's not worth getting into.


*rattle*rattle*rattle*rattle*
Uncle Scotty 06-19-2004 12:12 AM

If the fookin' wing didn't produce any down force then just EXACTLY why was it so 'bowed' downward in the middle, at speed, and it ISN'T at rest....????
I'm thinking that MAYBE....JUST MAYBE....that it was producing lift---which is what wings DO....:eek: :huh: :rolleyes:

Some people are so self deluded that they believe that the glaringly apparent MUST be for the benefit of others.....:rolleyes:

MB38...go back to(a lot) of school and call me when you figure out what time it is....
IronMonkeyL255 06-19-2004 12:22 AM

It's probably just a cover to keep the wing (or whatever is in there) from getting messed up.

Notice the identification tag on the top. They probably have a few different wings for differing amounts of downforce that they switch out wheneve necessary.

That, or it is just a spare......
dr_wheel 06-19-2004 01:13 AM

I can't see how there is any debate as to whether or not the STi wing is a functioning part or not. I mean, it is pretty damn close (if not identical) to the wing that the SWRT used to run on their car up to 2002. Sure, they have changed it since then, but do you honestly think that their engineers simply designed this for show:

[img]http://www.swrt.com/cpimages/96855.jpg[/img]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
BongMonster 06-19-2004 01:20 AM

[URL=http://www.twinsupply.com/pizza_bags.htm]"Wing warmer" Vendor Catalog[/URL]


enjoy
mykrrrr 06-19-2004 08:35 AM

Jon - Nice one. :D

It's rumoured that Mitsu and Skoda pulled out of the WRC to joinly develop a heated shifter paddle/shift knobs to keep their driver's fingers more dexterous during long events.

I overheard this @ the service park while @ the Rally of the Asshats '03.

Didn't get any pics though.

-mykr.
MB38 06-19-2004 10:30 AM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Uncle Scotty[/i]
[B] If the fookin' wing didn't produce any down force then just EXACTLY why was it so 'bowed' downward in the middle, at speed, and it ISN'T at rest....????
I'm thinking that MAYBE....JUST MAYBE....that it was producing lift---which is what wings DO....:eek: :huh: :rolleyes:

Some people are so self deluded that they believe that the glaringly apparent MUST be for the benefit of others.....:rolleyes:

MB38...go back to(a lot) of school and call me when you figure out what time it is.... [/B][/QUOTE]
Scotty, I'm not doubting that the wing serves a purpose. My comment that it's "there for look" was referring to the fact that what it accomplishes could've been taken care of in a different/more efficient way. No, I'm not just covering my ass here. It *does* smooth out air and provide stabilization for the rear of the car. It does not, however, produce any significant downforce. By definition, it is producing downforce. If you held a piece of plywood out the side of your car, it'd be producing downforce. My phrasing (saying it doesn't produce "any" downforce) was poor and I admit that. The wing does not produce significant downforce... certainly not adequate downforce to warrant its size, in my book.

You've been nothing but volatile in every dealing with me, from simply trying to prove me wrong to being a complete dick in private messages. I'm sure you know more than I do, but don't think for a second that I'm talking out of my ass when I make a statement.

And for the record, the wing on the car that I happened to be driving was *not* bowed down in the middle, it was pulsating up and down and rattling like nobody's business, indicating that it was not in plane with the flow of air coming over the top of the car.
oldmansan 06-19-2004 03:54 PM

Ahh,
that's why Uncle Scotty and I get along I guess. We call them like we see them. I'm in the military, so it doesn't go over well when I tell my superiors that they don't know what they're doing, but I do it anyway. As for the wing issue, I have the stock WRX spoiler. Had the car without it, then added it. Felt no difference. Added the Zerosports risers ($50 used) and actually felt some difference at speed, and not ludicrous speed. Haven't driven an STI wingless and winged, but I'd bet there is a slight difference. Scotty, where you stay?

San
badboiWRX 06-19-2004 05:11 PM

The STi wing produces downforce and reduces lift. Top part is so tall so it can reach some of the "clean" air coming over the roofline of the car. The bottom lip reduces drag off the trunk lid. This wing takes into account both areas of turbulence on the car, the rear window and the rear trunk, and works around it to produce downforce and reduce lift.

The WRC wing simply extends back further and has more angle on the top section to increase these effects.

And believe it or not, the WRX rear spoiler has aerodynamic functions... however, it throws off the aerodynamic balance of the car slightly. Please note that by adding or removing wings that this can throw off your aerodynamic balance and if driven hard, it can be very bad.
migs76 06-19-2004 05:35 PM

if it were that bad, why would they sell wrx's with no spoilers? :rolleyes:
VSGTS14 06-19-2004 06:15 PM

warming the rear spoiler wouldn't have any effect on the downforce...makes no sense...

that's probably just a cover
IronMonkeyL255 06-19-2004 10:57 PM

That's what I said.

I don't think anyone paid any attention.....
scoobyryde 06-20-2004 07:24 AM

ditto[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Uncle Scotty[/i]
[B] Now [SIZE=7]THAT[/SIZE] is ridiculous....wing warmer [SIZE=4]LMFAO!!!![/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE]
strohausii 06-20-2004 02:48 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by migs76 [/i]
[B]if it were that bad, why would they sell wrx's with no spoilers? :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

...the speed where it's bad, you can't blame subaru legally... if you survive the sudden stop, or the magnets from those 10's in the trunk churreling through the car.

The TT's had really bad high speed oversteer w/o that puny 3" wing on the back.

eh, its prolly just a protector for a replacement front CF bumper, every picture of a wrc subi has that $10k piece torn in one way or another.

...doesn't the wings have a lower parallel piece too?
deebo 06-20-2004 11:15 PM

i like to preheat mine to 425 degrees before racing also i found that sprinkling a little cinnamon on it gives it that taste im looking for
CatchMyDrift 06-20-2004 11:17 PM

dood, ever tried the lowfat SmackWells version? Their grrrrrrrate! :banana:
BongMonster 06-20-2004 11:32 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BongMonster [/i]
[B][URL=http://www.twinsupply.com/pizza_bags.htm]"Wing warmer" Vendor Catalog[/URL]
enjoy [/B][/QUOTE]

i thought that was kinda funny? ;-)
DAB_WRX02 06-21-2004 12:04 AM

I can see no advantage to warming a wing. If anything it would reduce the downforce because of the reduced density of the warmed air. By the time they got that wing on the car, any heat generated by a "wing warmer" would have dissipated anyways. Composites aren't very good conductors. If they wanted to heat it to reduce drag by means of lowered air density/viscosity, they would be better off lowering the alpha of the spoiler. The induced drag of that airfoil is directly proportional to the lift created. The lift created is directly proportional to the angle of attack. Any reduction in drag caused by heating the air would be lost by a reduction in downforce because of the lowered density. They could get the same effect by lowering the AOA of the spoiler.

Also, heating the spoiler would be pretty ineffective in reducing drag because of the boundary layer. The air right on the surface of that airfoil isn't moving. If anything, it would increase drag by exciting the boundary layer and eliminating smooth flow.

A spoiler doesn't really get up to "operating temperature" like a tire would. There is some friction due to air passing, but the speeds attained in even rally driving doesn't create enough surface friction to make any noticeable increase in temperature.

Unlike tires, heat would not be an asset to an airfoil.
oldmansan 06-21-2004 01:15 AM

Wow,
some are actually taking this topic seriously (***O). I'll be nice and leave it at that.

San
henzly23 06-21-2004 04:19 AM

wing tip warmer
[IMG]http://carryhot.com/pics/pe3-large2.jpg[/IMG]
henzly23 06-21-2004 04:20 AM

just gotta get those boxes out of the way
scrappydoo 06-21-2004 05:20 AM

Screw the wing-warmer. I need a hoodscoop warmer so it'll be up to temp by the time I leave the garage!:D
Capt Crunch 06-21-2004 06:46 AM

I thought it was funny that the original poster thought that the extra downforce from the wing warmer would stop him from spinning out when he drove to work.

I have an alternative suggestion: Stop driving like an idiot.
vadim 06-21-2004 08:50 AM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Capt Crunch[/i]
[B] I thought it was funny that the original poster thought that the extra downforce from the wing warmer would stop him from spinning out when he drove to work.

I have an alternative suggestion: Stop driving like an idiot. [/B][/QUOTE]
Jon Bogert 06-21-2004 09:19 AM

[QUOTE]the original poster thought[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's [i]just[/i] what I thought. :lol:

OK, for the low-foreheaded amongst you, that is really a padded case that holds a front bumper for an M-sport Focus. But some of you actually had me believing there for a minute... ;)
JIN 06-21-2004 09:33 AM

I'm really lost for words ... But I do believe its to hide the design from the public - till the very last minute.

Jin
jefmcc 06-21-2004 01:22 PM

I have a serious question about this wing warming thing.

On aircraft (fixed wing and rotor), the wings can and often do develop ice on the wings. There are several ways to deal with it in mid-flight.

Now, when rally cars race at high speeds in the snow, can the wings build up ice on them, thus making them less effective?
Cole 06-21-2004 03:44 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert[/i]
[B] .......I'm thinking that I could plug one of these warmers in my garage, to give me that extra bit of rear grip from bringing the wing up to operating temperature [i]before[/i] my car hits the street.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Only if you drive to work at 110mph!

"Operating temperature?" -- You am funny!

:banana:
strohausii 06-21-2004 05:56 PM

Nawh, saves them the high operating costs of deicing agents, and give the interns something to do.
Samirr76 06-21-2004 10:32 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MB38 [/i]
[B]Remember, the STi wing doesn't produce any real downforce, it's just there for looks. If you want downforce, swap it out with a real wing. [/B][/QUOTE]

Wrong...its is functional and DOES produce downforce. So does the EVO wing.
Samirr76 06-21-2004 10:38 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by VSGTS14 [/i]
[B]warming the rear spoiler wouldn't have any effect on the downforce...makes no sense...

that's probably just a cover [/B][/QUOTE]

Did you finally realize it was a JOKE? :p
JoeGengsta 07-22-2005 01:54 AM

actually guys. think back to your physics/thermochemistry class. when an object is hotter than it's surroundings, it wants to become in equilibrium with it's environment. when the wing is warmer than it's surroundings, there becomes a thermo-gradient thus drawing colder (more dense) air towards it's heated surface. with cooler air, creates more attractive pressure which equates to greater downforce when driving forwards.
STi-MAN 07-22-2005 01:59 AM

[QUOTE=MB38]Remember, the STi wing doesn't produce any real downforce, it's just there for looks. If you want downforce, swap it out with a real wing.[/QUOTE]
you dont know what your talking about.
Richmond WRX 07-22-2005 02:27 AM

just dont microwave the wing for very long or the turbo juice in your wing may burn :banana:
HighSpeedRacerX 07-22-2005 01:47 PM

[QUOTE=henzly23][IMG]http://carryhot.com/pics/pe3-large2.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Actually, by the shape of it I think it's more of a calzone delivery warmer.
WRXSIG 07-22-2005 08:46 PM

i am seriously glad that im not the only one who has had problems with certain parts of the car being warm/up to operating temp. Just last week i ran over a median because the radio buttons startled me they were so cold.... :(
twizzstyle 07-22-2005 09:04 PM

[QUOTE=JoeGengsta]actually guys. think back to your physics/thermochemistry class. when an object is hotter than it's surroundings, it wants to become in equilibrium with it's environment. when the wing is warmer than it's surroundings, there becomes a thermo-gradient thus drawing colder (more dense) air towards it's heated surface. with cooler air, creates more attractive pressure which equates to greater downforce when driving forwards.[/QUOTE]

Thermochemistry? never heard of such a class.

and no, this makes no such "attractive pressure", there's no such thing. you're bringing up aerodynamic issues here, and a hot source does not attract colder air to it increasing its aerodynamic results, sorry ;)

i used to have an sti titanium knob, had to sell it cause it was also too hot or too cold, and I'll be darned if the thermo-gradient between it and my hand didn't attact my hand to it every time my car was revving high needing a new gear :p , and it would freeze and/or burn my hand! owy! :eek:
offset 07-22-2005 09:18 PM

Nice to see the revival of a thread that is just over a year old for more humor :p

offset

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