| makofoto | 07-15-2004 02:30 PM |
AutoCross Cheating ...
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Some people have the opinion that cheating, or should we say, interpreting the rules "loosely," is part of racing.
Is this aspect of racing prevalent in SCCA Auto Crossing ... or are most drivers above this, or too "innocent?"
I was impressed that I believe at last years Nationals ... the STX WRX drivers voluntarily submitted their engines to Delta Dash analysis ... and everybody's engines were very close ... is this true ?
Is this aspect of racing prevalent in SCCA Auto Crossing ... or are most drivers above this, or too "innocent?"
I was impressed that I believe at last years Nationals ... the STX WRX drivers voluntarily submitted their engines to Delta Dash analysis ... and everybody's engines were very close ... is this true ?
| KC | 07-15-2004 02:38 PM |
There'll always be people that their interpretation of the rules is different than someone elses. That's what happens with 'rules'.
That's why we also have a protest committe to look at the 'protests' from both standpoints and money is fronted (the bond) in the case of a protest when something may or may not be illegal to tear down the suspected components and put it back together. If the parts are not legal, the bond is returned to the protestor. If the parts are legal, the protestee takes the money and uses it to rebuild what was torn down.
It's a sport for fun, at least I look at is as just having fun, but never underestimate what someone may or may not do to win the trophy or jacket.
--kC
That's why we also have a protest committe to look at the 'protests' from both standpoints and money is fronted (the bond) in the case of a protest when something may or may not be illegal to tear down the suspected components and put it back together. If the parts are not legal, the bond is returned to the protestor. If the parts are legal, the protestee takes the money and uses it to rebuild what was torn down.
It's a sport for fun, at least I look at is as just having fun, but never underestimate what someone may or may not do to win the trophy or jacket.
--kC
| Scooby South | 07-15-2004 02:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] It's a sport for fun, at least I look at is as just having fun, but never underestimate what someone may or may not do to win the trophy or jacket.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
that has been MY point EVER since I can remember...
Bastiges...
[B] It's a sport for fun, at least I look at is as just having fun, but never underestimate what someone may or may not do to win the trophy or jacket.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
that has been MY point EVER since I can remember...
Bastiges...
| B&S Motorsports | 07-15-2004 03:10 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]I was impressed that I believe at last years Nationals ... the STX WRX drivers voluntarily submitted their engines to Delta Dash analysis ... and everybody's engines were very close ... is this true ? [/B][/QUOTE]
I hope I'm not getting off track with this, but what is the real point of of a Delta Dash test?
Does it show you anything more than peak boost levels?
If that's all it shows, then it's not actually showing you real usable data relevant to an ecu protest. We should all know by now that the effects of ecu mapping is much more detailed than just what peak boost levels you can see.
It would seem to me that this request for volunteer testing is just a way for the tester to convince the volunteers that he/she is legal.
Making the entire STX class think that the Delta Dash is a sufficient means of ecu testing is a perfect way to ensure that you're not caught cheating.
[B]I was impressed that I believe at last years Nationals ... the STX WRX drivers voluntarily submitted their engines to Delta Dash analysis ... and everybody's engines were very close ... is this true ? [/B][/QUOTE]
I hope I'm not getting off track with this, but what is the real point of of a Delta Dash test?
Does it show you anything more than peak boost levels?
If that's all it shows, then it's not actually showing you real usable data relevant to an ecu protest. We should all know by now that the effects of ecu mapping is much more detailed than just what peak boost levels you can see.
It would seem to me that this request for volunteer testing is just a way for the tester to convince the volunteers that he/she is legal.
Making the entire STX class think that the Delta Dash is a sufficient means of ecu testing is a perfect way to ensure that you're not caught cheating.
| KC | 07-15-2004 03:33 PM |
wrx2.0 555... aka Scott Strickland... (That was your old screen name, right?)
Delta Dash shows quite a bit more actually. For example: it would have (at the time) shown if cars were running 'dual maps' through the menu for 'User Tune' becoming enabled.
There's a host of other things that would have given some indication.
Another example, if everyone was within 3 hp, and one car came out 10hp higher... that would kinda be a red flag. THis year things will probably be different becuase there's more than one chip out there now.
[QUOTE]t would seem to me that this request for volunteer testing is just a way for the tester to convince the volunteers that he/she is legal.
Making the entire STX class think that the Delta Dash is a sufficient means of ecu testing is a perfect way to ensure that you're not caught cheating.[/QUOTE]
Were you there? Nope, don't think so. I beleive your insuation was formed from secondhand knowledge of what actually went down at nationals last year (your auto-x team at jacksonville perhaps??) . If not, that's a mighty big assumption (accusation) to start throwing out there.
--kC
Delta Dash shows quite a bit more actually. For example: it would have (at the time) shown if cars were running 'dual maps' through the menu for 'User Tune' becoming enabled.
There's a host of other things that would have given some indication.
Another example, if everyone was within 3 hp, and one car came out 10hp higher... that would kinda be a red flag. THis year things will probably be different becuase there's more than one chip out there now.
[QUOTE]t would seem to me that this request for volunteer testing is just a way for the tester to convince the volunteers that he/she is legal.
Making the entire STX class think that the Delta Dash is a sufficient means of ecu testing is a perfect way to ensure that you're not caught cheating.[/QUOTE]
Were you there? Nope, don't think so. I beleive your insuation was formed from secondhand knowledge of what actually went down at nationals last year (your auto-x team at jacksonville perhaps??) . If not, that's a mighty big assumption (accusation) to start throwing out there.
--kC
| wrx2.0 555 | 07-15-2004 03:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]wrx2.0 555.... (That was your old screen name, right?)
Delta Dash shows quite a bit more actually. For example: it would have (at the time) shown if cars were running 'dual maps' through the menu for 'User Tune' becoming enabled.
There's a host of other things that would have given some indication.
Another example, if everyone was within 3 hp, and one car came out 10hp higher... that would kinda be a red flag. THis year things will probably be different becuase there's more than one chip out there now.
Were you there? Nope, don't think so. I beleive your insuation was formed from secondhand knowledge of what actually went down at nationals last year. If not, that's a mighty big assumption (accusation) to start throwing out there.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
KC, your opinion is well respected and I mean no disrespect to anyone, so please dont take any away from this.
My insinuation has nothing to do with any second hand information, but with the general idea of this process and its "implied" accuracy.
Take from my statement what you will, its simply my point of view only.
[B]wrx2.0 555.... (That was your old screen name, right?)
Delta Dash shows quite a bit more actually. For example: it would have (at the time) shown if cars were running 'dual maps' through the menu for 'User Tune' becoming enabled.
There's a host of other things that would have given some indication.
Another example, if everyone was within 3 hp, and one car came out 10hp higher... that would kinda be a red flag. THis year things will probably be different becuase there's more than one chip out there now.
Were you there? Nope, don't think so. I beleive your insuation was formed from secondhand knowledge of what actually went down at nationals last year. If not, that's a mighty big assumption (accusation) to start throwing out there.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
KC, your opinion is well respected and I mean no disrespect to anyone, so please dont take any away from this.
My insinuation has nothing to do with any second hand information, but with the general idea of this process and its "implied" accuracy.
Take from my statement what you will, its simply my point of view only.
| KC | 07-15-2004 03:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555[/i]
[B] KC, your opinion is well respected and I mean no disrespect to anyone, so please dont take any away from this.
My insinuation has nothing to do with any second hand information, but with the general idea of this process and its "implied" accuracy.
Take from my statement what you will, its simply my point of view only. [/B][/QUOTE]
No harm no foul... I wasn't the one who had the delta dash. :lol:
[B] KC, your opinion is well respected and I mean no disrespect to anyone, so please dont take any away from this.
My insinuation has nothing to do with any second hand information, but with the general idea of this process and its "implied" accuracy.
Take from my statement what you will, its simply my point of view only. [/B][/QUOTE]
No harm no foul... I wasn't the one who had the delta dash. :lol:
| trhoppe | 07-15-2004 03:54 PM |
[quote]Making the entire STX class think that the Delta Dash is a sufficient means of ecu testing is a perfect way to ensure that you're not caught cheating.
[/quote]
Damn, my plain was foiled :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Since youre the expert here ( ;) ) what BETTER way is there, and what will my deltadash not show that you can do to cheat with boost? I would love to know and I think it would benefit everyone to get that out in the open. This year I would love to get all the top guys to do the same thing again. 2nd gear 50% throttle run up to redline. 2nd gear 100% throttle run up to redline. Compare everyone's boost levels, curves, and dropoff.
-Tom
[/quote]
Damn, my plain was foiled :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Since youre the expert here ( ;) ) what BETTER way is there, and what will my deltadash not show that you can do to cheat with boost? I would love to know and I think it would benefit everyone to get that out in the open. This year I would love to get all the top guys to do the same thing again. 2nd gear 50% throttle run up to redline. 2nd gear 100% throttle run up to redline. Compare everyone's boost levels, curves, and dropoff.
-Tom
| Georgethefierce | 07-15-2004 04:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Damn, my plain was foiled :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Since youre the expert here ( ;) ) what BETTER way is there, and what will my deltadash not show that you can do to cheat with boost? I would love to know and I think it would benefit everyone to get that out in the open. This year I would love to get all the top guys to do the same thing again. 2nd gear 50% throttle run up to redline. 2nd gear 100% throttle run up to redline. Compare everyone's boost levels, curves, and dropoff.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Cheater!
[B]Damn, my plain was foiled :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Since youre the expert here ( ;) ) what BETTER way is there, and what will my deltadash not show that you can do to cheat with boost? I would love to know and I think it would benefit everyone to get that out in the open. This year I would love to get all the top guys to do the same thing again. 2nd gear 50% throttle run up to redline. 2nd gear 100% throttle run up to redline. Compare everyone's boost levels, curves, and dropoff.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Cheater!
| wrx2.0 555 | 07-15-2004 04:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Damn, my plain was foiled :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Since youre the expert here ( ;) ) what BETTER way is there, and what will my deltadash not show that you can do to cheat with boost? I would love to know and I think it would benefit everyone to get that out in the open. This year I would love to get all the top guys to do the same thing again. 2nd gear 50% throttle run up to redline. 2nd gear 100% throttle run up to redline. Compare everyone's boost levels, curves, and dropoff.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
No one, especially me, said I was an expert.
Just offering the fact that your testing method is FAR from ideal and can only create assumptions and prove nothing. It just makes one wonder why anyone would be so persistent about using it.
Maybe you shouldnt get quite so defensive. It doesnt look good. ;) :p
Scott
[B]Damn, my plain was foiled :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Since youre the expert here ( ;) ) what BETTER way is there, and what will my deltadash not show that you can do to cheat with boost? I would love to know and I think it would benefit everyone to get that out in the open. This year I would love to get all the top guys to do the same thing again. 2nd gear 50% throttle run up to redline. 2nd gear 100% throttle run up to redline. Compare everyone's boost levels, curves, and dropoff.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
No one, especially me, said I was an expert.
Just offering the fact that your testing method is FAR from ideal and can only create assumptions and prove nothing. It just makes one wonder why anyone would be so persistent about using it.
Maybe you shouldnt get quite so defensive. It doesnt look good. ;) :p
Scott
| stxwrxracer | 07-15-2004 04:30 PM |
Can you test a stock ECU with a Delta Dash? I've got the Ecutek now so I know that can be checked without a problem, but what about a non-touched ECU to see what it is doing.
My reasoning....I liked the way my stock ECU worked....and want to know why. I guess I need to find someone local with a DD.
Mike
Scott, know anyone?
My reasoning....I liked the way my stock ECU worked....and want to know why. I guess I need to find someone local with a DD.
Mike
Scott, know anyone?
| ChrisDP | 07-15-2004 04:31 PM |
Cliff notes:
"The method agreed upon by the STX Subaru drivers for policing boost on STX Subarus is inadequate. How it could be improved, I don't know or won't say. But it is inadequate. Just thought I'd let you know"
Umm... should Tom/KC et. al be [I]thanking[/I] you?
"The method agreed upon by the STX Subaru drivers for policing boost on STX Subarus is inadequate. How it could be improved, I don't know or won't say. But it is inadequate. Just thought I'd let you know"
Umm... should Tom/KC et. al be [I]thanking[/I] you?
| zzyzx | 07-15-2004 04:42 PM |
No method is perfect and all are flawed in some way or another.
That said, the method commented about above seems both practical and reasonable and hella better than nothing.
- Steve Sulatycki
That said, the method commented about above seems both practical and reasonable and hella better than nothing.
- Steve Sulatycki
| trhoppe | 07-15-2004 04:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555[/i]
[B] Just offering the fact that your testing method is FAR from ideal and can only create assumptions and prove nothing. It just makes one wonder why anyone would be so persistent about using it.
[/quote]
Because its the best method that everyone (except YOU) knows. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Since you say that its FAR from ideal. What is ideal?? Or is there anything close?? I (as well as other competitors I'm sure) would love to know.
[quote]
Maybe you shouldnt get quite so defensive. It doesnt look good. ;) :p
[/B][/QUOTE]
What doesn't look good? Protest me. I challenge anyone to protest me. Bring it. Please. I've already been through 1 boost protest at nationals. Couldn't have gone any better in my favor. I'm sure the next one will be the same ;) All we are doing is going through a 2nd gear pull on a car and checking the boost levels with the DD. Its a LOT more scientific then looking at a boost gauge as it actually graphs it for you.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer[/i]
[B] Can you test a stock ECU with a Delta Dash? I've got the Ecutek now so I know that can be checked without a problem, but what about a non-touched ECU to see what it is doing.
[/quote]
The delta dash that I do is a log of your boost. It doesn't matter what ECU you have, stock, Cobb, ECUtek, whatever, the boost levels through a 2nd gear pull can be read. The only thing DD does above and beyond that is it can tell if an ECU has been ECutekked to have 2 boost maps.
[quote]
My reasoning....I liked the way my stock ECU worked....and want to know why. I guess I need to find someone local with a DD.
[/B][/QUOTE]
What do you mean "worked"? What does your ECUtek do differently? And answer my PM beoooootch.
-Tom
[B] Just offering the fact that your testing method is FAR from ideal and can only create assumptions and prove nothing. It just makes one wonder why anyone would be so persistent about using it.
[/quote]
Because its the best method that everyone (except YOU) knows. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Since you say that its FAR from ideal. What is ideal?? Or is there anything close?? I (as well as other competitors I'm sure) would love to know.
[quote]
Maybe you shouldnt get quite so defensive. It doesnt look good. ;) :p
[/B][/QUOTE]
What doesn't look good? Protest me. I challenge anyone to protest me. Bring it. Please. I've already been through 1 boost protest at nationals. Couldn't have gone any better in my favor. I'm sure the next one will be the same ;) All we are doing is going through a 2nd gear pull on a car and checking the boost levels with the DD. Its a LOT more scientific then looking at a boost gauge as it actually graphs it for you.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer[/i]
[B] Can you test a stock ECU with a Delta Dash? I've got the Ecutek now so I know that can be checked without a problem, but what about a non-touched ECU to see what it is doing.
[/quote]
The delta dash that I do is a log of your boost. It doesn't matter what ECU you have, stock, Cobb, ECUtek, whatever, the boost levels through a 2nd gear pull can be read. The only thing DD does above and beyond that is it can tell if an ECU has been ECutekked to have 2 boost maps.
[quote]
My reasoning....I liked the way my stock ECU worked....and want to know why. I guess I need to find someone local with a DD.
[/B][/QUOTE]
What do you mean "worked"? What does your ECUtek do differently? And answer my PM beoooootch.
-Tom
| trhoppe | 07-15-2004 04:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx[/i]
[B] No method is perfect and all are flawed in some way or another.
That said, the method commented about above seems both practical and reasonable and hella better than nothing.
- Steve Sulatycki [/B][/QUOTE]
Speaking of "methods". Do you guys know what our method was during an official full out protest of me at the ProSolo finale? We got out a non standardized ghetto ass boost gauge and first hooked it up to my car, then Larry's car. We ran the cars through 2nd gear while having an "official" monitor the boost gauge.
My delta dash method with graphing is WAY more advanced then that ;)
-Tom
[B] No method is perfect and all are flawed in some way or another.
That said, the method commented about above seems both practical and reasonable and hella better than nothing.
- Steve Sulatycki [/B][/QUOTE]
Speaking of "methods". Do you guys know what our method was during an official full out protest of me at the ProSolo finale? We got out a non standardized ghetto ass boost gauge and first hooked it up to my car, then Larry's car. We ran the cars through 2nd gear while having an "official" monitor the boost gauge.
My delta dash method with graphing is WAY more advanced then that ;)
-Tom
| makofoto | 07-15-2004 04:47 PM |
PM's ... that's cheating! :lol:
| zzyzx | 07-15-2004 04:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Do you guys know what our method was during an official full out protest of me at the ProSolo finale?
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I remember, I was there. And his car had more boost, right? :lol: :lol: :lol:
- Steve Sulatycki
[B]Do you guys know what our method was during an official full out protest of me at the ProSolo finale?
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I remember, I was there. And his car had more boost, right? :lol: :lol: :lol:
- Steve Sulatycki
| KC | 07-15-2004 04:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx[/i]
[B] I remember, I was there. And his car had more boost, right? :lol: :lol: :lol:
- Steve Sulatycki [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep! Larry's car had more boost than Toms! :lol:
[B] I remember, I was there. And his car had more boost, right? :lol: :lol: :lol:
- Steve Sulatycki [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep! Larry's car had more boost than Toms! :lol:
| trhoppe | 07-15-2004 05:13 PM |
I wish I had a scanner now for my boost map from the latest dyno runs now in STX. 14.5lb spike, then it drops to 14, then 12, then 10, and its friggin 7 psi by redline :lol:
Scott said "Thats the sorriest boost curve I've ever seen"
-Tom
who is really tempted to try about 10 different 2002 ECUs, find the one with the most boost and ECUtek that one.......
Scott said "Thats the sorriest boost curve I've ever seen"
-Tom
who is really tempted to try about 10 different 2002 ECUs, find the one with the most boost and ECUtek that one.......
| MNbiker | 07-15-2004 06:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]who is really tempted to try about 10 different 2002 ECUs, find the one with the most boost and ECUtek that one....... [/B][/QUOTE]
Has Joel sold his WRX yet? Just get his ECU & turbo - he was putting out more stock boost than anyone else I've ever hear of.
-Steve
[B]who is really tempted to try about 10 different 2002 ECUs, find the one with the most boost and ECUtek that one....... [/B][/QUOTE]
Has Joel sold his WRX yet? Just get his ECU & turbo - he was putting out more stock boost than anyone else I've ever hear of.
-Steve
| AUTOwrXER | 07-15-2004 11:05 PM |
It's at SOG, or so I hear. Stock ECU with UTEC was the last we tried, which we later learned is not legal in ST* (unless the SEB accepts my proposal). Utec was bypassed for boost control. Boost was built early through lean condition and advanced timing. Never had a big spike, but I think it was near 9 or 10 psi at redline.
What's my turbo have to do with anything?
What's my turbo have to do with anything?
| WRXedUSA | 07-15-2004 11:25 PM |
Hmm.
I agree with ScoobySouth wholeheartedly by his first comment, but it gets kinda obvious when a very competent driver, matched with a equally competent driver (IMHO as I have watch both for a few years now) gets outbeat by the one with the Cobb accessport ECU upgrade in STX consistantly.
Then, it's not fun anymore.
Turbo or not, the low end acceleration boost by the comp makes significant difference.
I agree with ScoobySouth wholeheartedly by his first comment, but it gets kinda obvious when a very competent driver, matched with a equally competent driver (IMHO as I have watch both for a few years now) gets outbeat by the one with the Cobb accessport ECU upgrade in STX consistantly.
Then, it's not fun anymore.
Turbo or not, the low end acceleration boost by the comp makes significant difference.
| trhoppe | 07-15-2004 11:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXedUSA[/i]
[B] Hmm.
I agree with ScoobySouth wholeheartedly by his first comment, but it gets kinda obvious when a very competent driver, matched with a equally competent driver (IMHO as I have watch both for a few years now) gets outbeat by the one with the Cobb accessport ECU upgrade in STX consistantly.
Then, it's not fun anymore.
Turbo or not, the low end acceleration boost by the comp makes significant difference. [/B][/QUOTE]
And who would these two drivers be???
-Tom
[B] Hmm.
I agree with ScoobySouth wholeheartedly by his first comment, but it gets kinda obvious when a very competent driver, matched with a equally competent driver (IMHO as I have watch both for a few years now) gets outbeat by the one with the Cobb accessport ECU upgrade in STX consistantly.
Then, it's not fun anymore.
Turbo or not, the low end acceleration boost by the comp makes significant difference. [/B][/QUOTE]
And who would these two drivers be???
-Tom
| WRXedUSA | 07-16-2004 01:16 AM |
Just locals in my po-dunk region.
It is a fun Sunday event to me, but it kinda, you know, wears on you when you know its going on and potential conflict may arise.
It is a fun Sunday event to me, but it kinda, you know, wears on you when you know its going on and potential conflict may arise.
| Fred | 07-16-2004 04:17 AM |
Or maybe the guy's "outbeating" the other guy because he's a better driver?
:eek:
Unless the margin is a consistent 0.01 sec/ minute on course... :p
:eek:
Unless the margin is a consistent 0.01 sec/ minute on course... :p
| wrx2.0 555 | 07-16-2004 07:19 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXedUSA [/i]
[B]Hmm.
I agree with ScoobySouth wholeheartedly by his first comment, but it gets kinda obvious when a very competent driver, matched with a equally competent driver (IMHO as I have watch both for a few years now) gets outbeat by the one with the Cobb accessport ECU upgrade in STX consistantly.
Then, it's not fun anymore.
Turbo or not, the low end acceleration boost by the comp makes significant difference. [/B][/QUOTE]
Just out of curiousty, do you know which Cobb stage he is running?
Scott
[B]Hmm.
I agree with ScoobySouth wholeheartedly by his first comment, but it gets kinda obvious when a very competent driver, matched with a equally competent driver (IMHO as I have watch both for a few years now) gets outbeat by the one with the Cobb accessport ECU upgrade in STX consistantly.
Then, it's not fun anymore.
Turbo or not, the low end acceleration boost by the comp makes significant difference. [/B][/QUOTE]
Just out of curiousty, do you know which Cobb stage he is running?
Scott
| wrx2.0 555 | 07-16-2004 07:33 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Speaking of "methods". Do you guys know what our method was during an official full out protest of me at the ProSolo finale? We got out a non standardized ghetto ass boost gauge and first hooked it up to my car, then Larry's car. We ran the cars through 2nd gear while having an "official" monitor the boost gauge.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, when you put it THAT way..:alien: Maybe I'm just looking too far ahead? I dont think so, though. The reality is that the future is here now and your DD method IS far from ideal, given the current ecu remapping methods. But, given the alternatives, I guess you dont have much of a choice.
Question though, what is your cars HP and TQ numbers?
I ask because I think of the Cobb STX map quoting 270HP / 270 ft-lbs with no boost table changes and wonder how those numbers compare to your fully prepped STX numbers.
This is not an attempt at a sucker punch, just pure curiousty.
Scott
[B]Speaking of "methods". Do you guys know what our method was during an official full out protest of me at the ProSolo finale? We got out a non standardized ghetto ass boost gauge and first hooked it up to my car, then Larry's car. We ran the cars through 2nd gear while having an "official" monitor the boost gauge.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, when you put it THAT way..:alien: Maybe I'm just looking too far ahead? I dont think so, though. The reality is that the future is here now and your DD method IS far from ideal, given the current ecu remapping methods. But, given the alternatives, I guess you dont have much of a choice.
Question though, what is your cars HP and TQ numbers?
I ask because I think of the Cobb STX map quoting 270HP / 270 ft-lbs with no boost table changes and wonder how those numbers compare to your fully prepped STX numbers.
This is not an attempt at a sucker punch, just pure curiousty.
Scott
| trhoppe | 07-16-2004 09:12 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555[/i]
Well, when you put it THAT way..:alien: Maybe I'm just looking too far ahead? I dont think so, though. The reality is that the future is here now and your DD method IS far from ideal, given the current ecu remapping methods. But, given the alternatives, I guess you dont have much of a choice.
[/quote]
But I ask you again, what is BETTER??? I'd love to know because maybe could figure out a way to use it!
[quote]
Question though, what is your cars HP and TQ numbers?
I ask because I think of the Cobb STX map quoting 270HP / 270 ft-lbs with no boost table changes and wonder how those numbers compare to your fully prepped STX numbers.
This is not an attempt at a sucker punch, just pure curiousty.
Scott [/QUOTE]
As long as thats crank and not wheel, then youre in the ballpark.
-Tom
Well, when you put it THAT way..:alien: Maybe I'm just looking too far ahead? I dont think so, though. The reality is that the future is here now and your DD method IS far from ideal, given the current ecu remapping methods. But, given the alternatives, I guess you dont have much of a choice.
[/quote]
But I ask you again, what is BETTER??? I'd love to know because maybe could figure out a way to use it!
[quote]
Question though, what is your cars HP and TQ numbers?
I ask because I think of the Cobb STX map quoting 270HP / 270 ft-lbs with no boost table changes and wonder how those numbers compare to your fully prepped STX numbers.
This is not an attempt at a sucker punch, just pure curiousty.
Scott [/QUOTE]
As long as thats crank and not wheel, then youre in the ballpark.
-Tom
| MNbiker | 07-16-2004 09:15 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555 [/i]
[B]Question though, what is your cars HP and TQ numbers?
I ask because I think of the Cobb STX map quoting 270HP / 270 ft-lbs with no boost table changes and wonder how those numbers compare to your fully prepped STX numbers.
This is not an attempt at a sucker punch, just pure curiousty.
Scott [/B][/QUOTE]
The COBB numbers are pretty much useless, a they're CRANK HP/Tq estimates. Optimally tuned STX WRX's should be in the 205 to 225 WHEEL HP range, depending on the dyno being used. DD's road dyno usually seems to read somewhere in the mid-range of dyno's.
However, the HP estimates are really inconsequential to this discussion. You're really making this FAR more complicated than it needs to be. Short of a spec class, where all drivers have identically prepped cars, you'll NEVER be able to detect every possible illegal car modification, ECU or otherwise. But the bottom line is - you don't need to. With WRX's, fuel & timing changes are allowed, so you really only need to worry about boost curves. DD, when used as a data logger, does a very good job of showing boost levels across a full range of engine speeds & throttle angles. That's really all the information required, to examine whether the boost curve has been significantly altered ot not. Have you examined boost plots from many stock or STX-prepped WRX's? They all look pretty similar - if a car had non-stock boost mappings, the earlier onset of boost, higher peak boost, and/or less reduction of boost near redline would be pretty easy to spot.
Lost in all this discussion is the fact that whether DD or some other "uber-detector" is used, the PRIMARY enforcement vehicle for the SCCA is and will continue to be other competitors. In STX, most of the competitors are driving WRX's. They know the other drivers, what their cars are capable of, and how cheating could be accomplished. Could someone sneak an AccessPort into Grid, load a Stage 2 map, then change the car back to stock after runs are completed? Sure, they could. However, if that car was accellerating faster than other similar cars on course, competitors would likely notice. And by the way, if someone's cheating and is STILL far out of the trophies, no one's going to care. ;)
Just my $.02
-Steve
[B]Question though, what is your cars HP and TQ numbers?
I ask because I think of the Cobb STX map quoting 270HP / 270 ft-lbs with no boost table changes and wonder how those numbers compare to your fully prepped STX numbers.
This is not an attempt at a sucker punch, just pure curiousty.
Scott [/B][/QUOTE]
The COBB numbers are pretty much useless, a they're CRANK HP/Tq estimates. Optimally tuned STX WRX's should be in the 205 to 225 WHEEL HP range, depending on the dyno being used. DD's road dyno usually seems to read somewhere in the mid-range of dyno's.
However, the HP estimates are really inconsequential to this discussion. You're really making this FAR more complicated than it needs to be. Short of a spec class, where all drivers have identically prepped cars, you'll NEVER be able to detect every possible illegal car modification, ECU or otherwise. But the bottom line is - you don't need to. With WRX's, fuel & timing changes are allowed, so you really only need to worry about boost curves. DD, when used as a data logger, does a very good job of showing boost levels across a full range of engine speeds & throttle angles. That's really all the information required, to examine whether the boost curve has been significantly altered ot not. Have you examined boost plots from many stock or STX-prepped WRX's? They all look pretty similar - if a car had non-stock boost mappings, the earlier onset of boost, higher peak boost, and/or less reduction of boost near redline would be pretty easy to spot.
Lost in all this discussion is the fact that whether DD or some other "uber-detector" is used, the PRIMARY enforcement vehicle for the SCCA is and will continue to be other competitors. In STX, most of the competitors are driving WRX's. They know the other drivers, what their cars are capable of, and how cheating could be accomplished. Could someone sneak an AccessPort into Grid, load a Stage 2 map, then change the car back to stock after runs are completed? Sure, they could. However, if that car was accellerating faster than other similar cars on course, competitors would likely notice. And by the way, if someone's cheating and is STILL far out of the trophies, no one's going to care. ;)
Just my $.02
-Steve
| stxwrxracer | 07-16-2004 10:40 AM |
212hp/219torgue....on the DD Dyno. 210hp b4 the Ecutek....
MK
Tom, your turn...
MK
Tom, your turn...
| trhoppe | 07-16-2004 10:46 AM |
220hp/212torque on a dynapack, only 210/210 on the dd road dyno though.
The road dyno DD is *very* dependent on correct car weight and road conditions. I got 200 the first time and went :huh: Then got 220 going the other way on the same road :lol:
For comparison purposes we were all at 205/205 +- 2 at nationals last year.
-Tom
The road dyno DD is *very* dependent on correct car weight and road conditions. I got 200 the first time and went :huh: Then got 220 going the other way on the same road :lol:
For comparison purposes we were all at 205/205 +- 2 at nationals last year.
-Tom
| makofoto | 07-16-2004 10:58 AM |
When you guys do the DD Check ... do you automatically check for a 2nd Map ... or are there too many ways to hide the 2nd Map. Can the 2nd Map only be activated using the Rear Defrost Button + WOT ... or can one program the Activation of the 2nd Map using other combinations of buttons, etc ?
| trhoppe | 07-16-2004 11:11 AM |
Inside of DD there is a menu item that is something along the lines of "switch maps" that is available if you have 2 maps, but greyed out if you dont, irregardless of the "activation method" that is setup.
-Tom
-Tom
| makofoto | 07-16-2004 11:21 AM |
Any "famous," historic AX cheating stories ...
| Scooby South | 07-16-2004 11:35 AM |
this one time .....at band camp.....
| stxwrxracer | 07-16-2004 11:37 AM |
Nice thing is...there is no availability of a second map for the '04 WRXs. That info was offered up byt the Ecutek guy, I didn't ask.
-Mike
-Mike
| trhoppe | 07-16-2004 12:32 PM |
Yea like we're going to believe you :lol: :lol: BIG ;)
-Tom
If I'm a cheater, mike is a sandbagger
-Tom
If I'm a cheater, mike is a sandbagger
| stxwrxracer | 07-16-2004 01:12 PM |
Heheheheh:devil:
MK
MK
| Scooby South | 07-16-2004 02:14 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] -Tom
If I'm a cheater, mike is a sandbagger [/B][/QUOTE]
Pot this is Kettle...
word is you had enough Sand last year to create your beach....in Raleigh????
:lol: :lol: all you needed was water...
Bill
[B] -Tom
If I'm a cheater, mike is a sandbagger [/B][/QUOTE]
Pot this is Kettle...
word is you had enough Sand last year to create your beach....in Raleigh????
:lol: :lol: all you needed was water...
Bill
| MNbiker | 07-16-2004 06:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Scooby South [/i]
[B]Pot this is Kettle...[/B][/QUOTE]
ROFLMAO :lol: :lol:
[B]Pot this is Kettle...[/B][/QUOTE]
ROFLMAO :lol: :lol:
| BriDrive | 07-19-2004 11:38 AM |
Alot has been said and discussed about this issue in the past, and all the players at national level have participated in these discussions.....I think, given what Tom said about SCCA's response to his protest ( the ghetto guage check ), the delta dash IS a far better alternative than nothing at all. I think, however, that SCCA should conduct the tests and following a protest only. I know the DD test is an attempt on the part of the STX WRX'rs to govern themselves, but I think it can introduce animosity, especially when (and it will happen) a newcomer arrives at national level who has the speed and doesn't agree to submit to the pre-race DD interrogation.
Let's say I show up, I win and you don't like it. Protest me and let the SCCA do it's job. That's how the system is purportedly supposed to work. And I don't think Tom has said this is a problem....indeed, I think that is what would transpire. Problem then: What is SCCA going to do to verify a boost table has not been modified. SCCA will have to decide....ghetto guage, DD or some other test.....
Brings another interesting point I have not heard of in STX competition. The clutch/flywheel protest. Has it been done? What, if so, was the SCCA's resolution method. This could get really expensive and time consuming somewhere out in the middle of say Topeka. I see gearbox, clutch, flywheel illegal improvements as a far superior performance enhancement to outright auto-x speed in a WRX and difficult to validate, mechanically speaking.
I can drive quite well thank you, and I cannot for the life of me get my STX WRX on Azenis and stock running gear to do full on 4 wheel burnouts for 35 feet out of the timing box and I do not get tire scorching wheel-spin burnouts out of 3000 rpm 2nd gear hairpin turnarounds with stock clutch/gears etc.....I've seen it, I won't mention names (irrelevant) and I gotta think this is huge protest area.
BriDrive
Let's say I show up, I win and you don't like it. Protest me and let the SCCA do it's job. That's how the system is purportedly supposed to work. And I don't think Tom has said this is a problem....indeed, I think that is what would transpire. Problem then: What is SCCA going to do to verify a boost table has not been modified. SCCA will have to decide....ghetto guage, DD or some other test.....
Brings another interesting point I have not heard of in STX competition. The clutch/flywheel protest. Has it been done? What, if so, was the SCCA's resolution method. This could get really expensive and time consuming somewhere out in the middle of say Topeka. I see gearbox, clutch, flywheel illegal improvements as a far superior performance enhancement to outright auto-x speed in a WRX and difficult to validate, mechanically speaking.
I can drive quite well thank you, and I cannot for the life of me get my STX WRX on Azenis and stock running gear to do full on 4 wheel burnouts for 35 feet out of the timing box and I do not get tire scorching wheel-spin burnouts out of 3000 rpm 2nd gear hairpin turnarounds with stock clutch/gears etc.....I've seen it, I won't mention names (irrelevant) and I gotta think this is huge protest area.
BriDrive
| trhoppe | 07-19-2004 11:48 AM |
[QUOTE=BriDrive]Alot has been said and discussed about this issue in the past, and all the players at national level have participated in these discussions.....I think, given what Tom said about SCCA's response to his protest ( the ghetto guage check ), the delta dash IS a far better alternative than nothing at all. I think, however, that SCCA should conduct the tests and following a protest only. I know the DD test is an attempt on the part of the STX WRX'rs to govern themselves, but I think it can introduce animosity, especially when (and it will happen) a newcomer arrives at national level who has the speed and doesn't agree to submit to the pre-race DD interrogation.
Let's say I show up, I win and you don't like it. Protest me and let the SCCA do it's job. That's how the system is purportedly supposed to work. And I don't think Tom has said this is a problem....indeed, I think that is what would transpire. Problem then: What is SCCA going to do to verify a boost table has not been modified. SCCA will have to decide....ghetto guage, DD or some other test.....[/quote]
My "tests" are exactly that. All of us who want to, can check our cars. If you don't want to, great. I don't care. If you kick everyones ass, you'll probably get protested. Just as much for the win, as also to see what the hell the SCCA will actually do in another protest.
[quote]
Brings another interesting point I have not heard of in STX competition. The clutch/flywheel protest. Has it been done? What, if so, was the SCCA's resolution method. This could get really expensive and time consuming somewhere out in the middle of say Topeka. I see gearbox, clutch, flywheel illegal improvements as a far superior performance enhancement to outright auto-x speed in a WRX and difficult to validate, mechanically speaking.
I can drive quite well thank you, and I cannot for the life of me get my STX WRX on Azenis and stock running gear to do full on 4 wheel burnouts for 35 feet out of the timing box and I do not get tire scorching wheel-spin burnouts out of 3000 rpm 2nd gear hairpin turnarounds with stock clutch/gears etc.....I've seen it, I won't mention names (irrelevant) and I gotta think this is huge protest area.
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
In Solo2, this could be an issue. With ProSolos, its not. Its VERY easy to tell who has more HP, or who has different gearing. The top WRXs are all at the same prep level and are right on each other at the turn.
I have a feeling (and this is just a feeling :) ) that the top WRX guys are all either running the ProSolo finale (and we can see where everyone is) or are KC (and we know the old man is legal ;) )
-Tom
Let's say I show up, I win and you don't like it. Protest me and let the SCCA do it's job. That's how the system is purportedly supposed to work. And I don't think Tom has said this is a problem....indeed, I think that is what would transpire. Problem then: What is SCCA going to do to verify a boost table has not been modified. SCCA will have to decide....ghetto guage, DD or some other test.....[/quote]
My "tests" are exactly that. All of us who want to, can check our cars. If you don't want to, great. I don't care. If you kick everyones ass, you'll probably get protested. Just as much for the win, as also to see what the hell the SCCA will actually do in another protest.
[quote]
Brings another interesting point I have not heard of in STX competition. The clutch/flywheel protest. Has it been done? What, if so, was the SCCA's resolution method. This could get really expensive and time consuming somewhere out in the middle of say Topeka. I see gearbox, clutch, flywheel illegal improvements as a far superior performance enhancement to outright auto-x speed in a WRX and difficult to validate, mechanically speaking.
I can drive quite well thank you, and I cannot for the life of me get my STX WRX on Azenis and stock running gear to do full on 4 wheel burnouts for 35 feet out of the timing box and I do not get tire scorching wheel-spin burnouts out of 3000 rpm 2nd gear hairpin turnarounds with stock clutch/gears etc.....I've seen it, I won't mention names (irrelevant) and I gotta think this is huge protest area.
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
In Solo2, this could be an issue. With ProSolos, its not. Its VERY easy to tell who has more HP, or who has different gearing. The top WRXs are all at the same prep level and are right on each other at the turn.
I have a feeling (and this is just a feeling :) ) that the top WRX guys are all either running the ProSolo finale (and we can see where everyone is) or are KC (and we know the old man is legal ;) )
-Tom
| KC | 07-19-2004 12:27 PM |
[quote]rings another interesting point I have not heard of in STX competition. The clutch/flywheel protest. Has it been done? What, if so, was the SCCA's resolution method. This could get really expensive and time consuming somewhere out in the middle of say Topeka. I see gearbox, clutch, flywheel illegal improvements as a far superior performance enhancement to outright auto-x speed in a WRX and difficult to validate, mechanically speaking.[/quote]
Then a bond gets posted for the cost of the teardown/rebuild by the protestors. The work will probably be done at Figgs Subaru (Topeka Dealership about 5 min from the event site).
The process exists. If they don't find anything wrong (ie: all stock components) then the bond money pays for the rebuild (and sometimes things that get taken apart can't be put back together unless they're new... so the bond would conceivably cover ALL parts if needing to be replaced).
If they are illegal.. then the competitor must foot the bill for the teardown/rebuild and the bond goes back to the protestor.
--kC
Then a bond gets posted for the cost of the teardown/rebuild by the protestors. The work will probably be done at Figgs Subaru (Topeka Dealership about 5 min from the event site).
The process exists. If they don't find anything wrong (ie: all stock components) then the bond money pays for the rebuild (and sometimes things that get taken apart can't be put back together unless they're new... so the bond would conceivably cover ALL parts if needing to be replaced).
If they are illegal.. then the competitor must foot the bill for the teardown/rebuild and the bond goes back to the protestor.
--kC
| bullseye17 | 07-19-2004 12:58 PM |
isnt there an inspection hole in the trans below the I/C? Although im not sure how much you can see...
| Fred | 07-19-2004 02:02 PM |
KC - when you say that a bond is posted to cover the teardown/rebuild...
I was thinking that the "bond" was $150 or something. I'm also thinking the local Subaru dealership quotes around $500 to replace a clutch, just counting labor. So then, does the protester pay the entire bill if the car's legal, or does the protestee get stuck with most of it?
:confused:
I was thinking that the "bond" was $150 or something. I'm also thinking the local Subaru dealership quotes around $500 to replace a clutch, just counting labor. So then, does the protester pay the entire bill if the car's legal, or does the protestee get stuck with most of it?
:confused:
| trhoppe | 07-19-2004 02:09 PM |
The fee to initiate a protest is $50 at a tour/pro and $150 at nationals.
The bond is added to that and would be the amount of $$ that a dealership would charge for the tranny r&r.
-Tom
The bond is added to that and would be the amount of $$ that a dealership would charge for the tranny r&r.
-Tom
| Fred | 07-19-2004 02:23 PM |
ok, thanks.
| kwh29 | 07-20-2004 12:00 AM |
Yeah the bond is the harsh bit that keeps fishing expeditions from being more than casual. Bet the guy who protested Carpenter felt silly paying for the head gasket after his protest proved unfounded...
--Kevin H.
--Kevin H.
| stxwrxracer | 07-20-2004 10:13 AM |
Ah, yes..Mr. Chiles. He's one guy that no one will cheat against, I tell ya. Ran too many years in a Neon ACR and a Mini Cooper against him to know better. He keeps everyone he runs against honest and fair.
-Mike
-Mike
| stxwrxracer | 07-20-2004 10:17 AM |
-bump...tired of loading all 50 of these too see the last post...;)
| makofoto | 07-21-2004 12:47 AM |
huh ... just click on First Unread Post at the top left of the first page ... if you subscribe to the Thread ... the email notice that you get will take you to the first unread post !
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