| WL Flatout | 11-25-2004 04:41 PM |
AutoX rules - what can be changed?
�
�
G'day everyone,
Forgive me for being lazy but is it possible for someone to give us a quick and dirty summary of what can and can't be changed in the suspension area for AutoX?
Wedon't have this class or style of racing in Australia. I'm sure there are a number of "manuals" on the subject but it would help if we could get a more practical view of what you can and can't do.
I would assume there are various classes too so if you could let us know the most popular ones, how popular they are relative to the whole and what can and can't be changed?
We're looking at putting together more AutoX specific products and packages so would like to have some user/racer feedback first.
Thanks for your help.
Best
Jim
Whiteline Automotive
Forgive me for being lazy but is it possible for someone to give us a quick and dirty summary of what can and can't be changed in the suspension area for AutoX?
Wedon't have this class or style of racing in Australia. I'm sure there are a number of "manuals" on the subject but it would help if we could get a more practical view of what you can and can't do.
I would assume there are various classes too so if you could let us know the most popular ones, how popular they are relative to the whole and what can and can't be changed?
We're looking at putting together more AutoX specific products and packages so would like to have some user/racer feedback first.
Thanks for your help.
Best
Jim
Whiteline Automotive
| Storm Racing | 11-25-2004 05:03 PM |
Jim, this might give you some clarification
[url]http://moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/sp.html#s14[/url]
Tony
[url]http://moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/sp.html#s14[/url]
Tony
| UkNuck | 11-25-2004 05:04 PM |
Jim, did you find the sticky in the 'Motorsports' forum?
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174189[/url]
Good to hear you guys are on the case.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174189[/url]
Good to hear you guys are on the case.
| DrBiggly | 11-25-2004 07:44 PM |
Tony,
Moutons is horribly outdated anymore and they really need a copy of the real rulebook. Since they are quite a bit into racing, the rulebook probably shouldn't be too daunting for them. As of 2005, one can purchase and online copy of the Solo2 rulebook from [url]www.scca.com[/url]. I think getting exactly all the rules correct would be more beneficial than the quite helpful, but outdated moutons.org.
Also, check the sticky in the Motorsports forum for Subaru-specific topics; it covers about anything they could possibly want to know about Subarus and autox rules. If they have any further autox questions they could be directly addressed in that thread (as a quite a few of the top Subaru racers in the country watch that thread.)
Unfortunately the Brakes & Suspension forum is geared more towards the everyday driver than serious autox/race drivers as far as the visitors go. :)
-Biggly
Moutons is horribly outdated anymore and they really need a copy of the real rulebook. Since they are quite a bit into racing, the rulebook probably shouldn't be too daunting for them. As of 2005, one can purchase and online copy of the Solo2 rulebook from [url]www.scca.com[/url]. I think getting exactly all the rules correct would be more beneficial than the quite helpful, but outdated moutons.org.
Also, check the sticky in the Motorsports forum for Subaru-specific topics; it covers about anything they could possibly want to know about Subarus and autox rules. If they have any further autox questions they could be directly addressed in that thread (as a quite a few of the top Subaru racers in the country watch that thread.)
Unfortunately the Brakes & Suspension forum is geared more towards the everyday driver than serious autox/race drivers as far as the visitors go. :)
-Biggly
| Storm Racing | 11-25-2004 08:15 PM |
Jim,
in canada we have different rules then the US.
In canada in "stock" we can change the shock, but not the height, the spring or the camber adjustment
in "superstock" we can change the shock and the spring and the height but not the camber adjustment
in "street prepared" we can change shock, spring, height and camber
in "modified" its anything goes
The US has a whole other set of rules and classes
Tony
in canada we have different rules then the US.
In canada in "stock" we can change the shock, but not the height, the spring or the camber adjustment
in "superstock" we can change the shock and the spring and the height but not the camber adjustment
in "street prepared" we can change shock, spring, height and camber
in "modified" its anything goes
The US has a whole other set of rules and classes
Tony
| KC | 11-26-2004 10:07 AM |
Here are the rules for SCCA Auto-x Stock class (and the current rules are essentially the same on Moutons) [url]http://moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/stock.html#s135[/url]
You can change the Struts, but the springs must remain factory spec. What companies try to do is increse those parameters (high speed, low speed compression and rebound) to the max where the spring will still be effective in the 60 seconds or so on the course where there's essentially NO straights. The top four elements are slaloms, sweepers, decreasing or increasing radius turns and quick 'lane changes' (picture going from one lane to the next).
Anyone got a copy of any nationals course maps so we can show what a typical Nationals type couse looks like???
There are a variety of surfaces we run on... Asphalt to concrete, smooth and bumpy. National competitors pretty much tune all year based on the surface where National Finals are held.. in Toeka Kansas... which is bumpy, yet grippy concrete. (This may change next year or the year after to a new surface at a new location... so right now... who knows what's going to happen)
A majority of events around the country are fair to smooth asphalt (Air strips or large parking lots) becuase that's what's plentifully available. Concrete is also available at certain locations, but those numbers are dwindling becuase of the upkeep required vs. cost of doing so.
Just some further insight. :)
You can change the Struts, but the springs must remain factory spec. What companies try to do is increse those parameters (high speed, low speed compression and rebound) to the max where the spring will still be effective in the 60 seconds or so on the course where there's essentially NO straights. The top four elements are slaloms, sweepers, decreasing or increasing radius turns and quick 'lane changes' (picture going from one lane to the next).
Anyone got a copy of any nationals course maps so we can show what a typical Nationals type couse looks like???
There are a variety of surfaces we run on... Asphalt to concrete, smooth and bumpy. National competitors pretty much tune all year based on the surface where National Finals are held.. in Toeka Kansas... which is bumpy, yet grippy concrete. (This may change next year or the year after to a new surface at a new location... so right now... who knows what's going to happen)
A majority of events around the country are fair to smooth asphalt (Air strips or large parking lots) becuase that's what's plentifully available. Concrete is also available at certain locations, but those numbers are dwindling becuase of the upkeep required vs. cost of doing so.
Just some further insight. :)
| Arnie | 11-26-2004 03:16 PM |
Jim, perhaps you can ask a moderator to move this to the Motorsports Forum?
| thrdeye | 11-26-2004 03:20 PM |
[url]http://www.etrscca.org/gallery/sc_10122004/JAX_Challenge.wmv[/url]
Here's a vid of what autox looks like.
Here's a vid of what autox looks like.
| WL Flatout | 11-28-2004 08:04 PM |
Thanks everyone,
That video is quite effective and I appreciate all the constructive feedback.
KC, I guess I'm trying to work out what are the more popular classes and what that means for modifications. Understanding that there are various stages of tune allowable, how popular is each class. For example, how big is the market for dedicated AutoX coil-overs relative to class popularity overall?
Arnie, how do I do that? :o
Cheers
Jim
Whiteline
That video is quite effective and I appreciate all the constructive feedback.
KC, I guess I'm trying to work out what are the more popular classes and what that means for modifications. Understanding that there are various stages of tune allowable, how popular is each class. For example, how big is the market for dedicated AutoX coil-overs relative to class popularity overall?
Arnie, how do I do that? :o
Cheers
Jim
Whiteline
| Arnie | 11-28-2004 10:09 PM |
Jim, click up one level to the "suspension and brake" forum. At the bottom of the forum you can see who is moderating the forum (subie gal, for example). Just click on their name and PM to move the thread over to the Motorsports forum.
Good info guys!
Good info guys!
| KC | 11-29-2004 09:08 AM |
[QUOTE=WL Flatout]Thanks everyone,
That video is quite effective and I appreciate all the constructive feedback.
KC, I guess I'm trying to work out what are the more popular classes and what that means for modifications. Understanding that there are various stages of tune allowable, how popular is each class. For example, how big is the market for dedicated AutoX coil-overs relative to class popularity overall?
Arnie, how do I do that? :o
Cheers
Jim
Whiteline[/QUOTE]
As far as Subarus go, there are a multitude of classes they can be in. I would have to say looking at last years National participation levels, STX is by far the most subscribed to class with the WRX. Then it's either STS with the 2.5RS or ESP with the STi. All three of those classes allow the replacement of the stock suspension with Coil-Overs.
In stock (AS - STi; DS - WRX/Legacy GT/Forester XT; GS - 2.5RS) Cars would benefit from an upgraded Strut that works with the stock springs with better rebound and compression adjustment capabilities. Speaking solely on a National Level, there were NO DS WRXs at Nationals this year... they're just not competitive in the class, and I'd have to attribute that to 2 things... one can be fixed, one not.... 1) Struts that don't offer that much better control (and not many people took on the challenge of making them work) 2) Camber must remain with it's maximum stock value... with crappy stock camber, the front tires get eaten up something fierce.
On an abrasive surface like Concrete, it's not unheard of to go through a set at Nationals, not to mention trying to campaign with a set or two locally. That's a big chunk of change for Hoosiers just for "weekend warriors." (A set would cost on average $1,000) On the ProSolo circuit, you'd go through a set every event or two.
So for stock, it'd be nice to have a set of Sturts that can use the stock springs with some great rebound/compression curves... but 'the market' IMHO, would be STX -> STS -> ESP.
That video is quite effective and I appreciate all the constructive feedback.
KC, I guess I'm trying to work out what are the more popular classes and what that means for modifications. Understanding that there are various stages of tune allowable, how popular is each class. For example, how big is the market for dedicated AutoX coil-overs relative to class popularity overall?
Arnie, how do I do that? :o
Cheers
Jim
Whiteline[/QUOTE]
As far as Subarus go, there are a multitude of classes they can be in. I would have to say looking at last years National participation levels, STX is by far the most subscribed to class with the WRX. Then it's either STS with the 2.5RS or ESP with the STi. All three of those classes allow the replacement of the stock suspension with Coil-Overs.
In stock (AS - STi; DS - WRX/Legacy GT/Forester XT; GS - 2.5RS) Cars would benefit from an upgraded Strut that works with the stock springs with better rebound and compression adjustment capabilities. Speaking solely on a National Level, there were NO DS WRXs at Nationals this year... they're just not competitive in the class, and I'd have to attribute that to 2 things... one can be fixed, one not.... 1) Struts that don't offer that much better control (and not many people took on the challenge of making them work) 2) Camber must remain with it's maximum stock value... with crappy stock camber, the front tires get eaten up something fierce.
On an abrasive surface like Concrete, it's not unheard of to go through a set at Nationals, not to mention trying to campaign with a set or two locally. That's a big chunk of change for Hoosiers just for "weekend warriors." (A set would cost on average $1,000) On the ProSolo circuit, you'd go through a set every event or two.
So for stock, it'd be nice to have a set of Sturts that can use the stock springs with some great rebound/compression curves... but 'the market' IMHO, would be STX -> STS -> ESP.
| Subie Gal | 11-29-2004 01:54 PM |
moooooooooved to Motorsports :D
Jamie
[img]http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/weihnachten/xmas-smiley-037.gif[/img]
Jamie
[img]http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/weihnachten/xmas-smiley-037.gif[/img]
| D. Romanucci | 11-29-2004 02:26 PM |
Jamie is soooo good to us.
| Arnie | 11-29-2004 02:27 PM |
Stealing animated toys from German sites jamie? ;)
| Storm | 11-29-2004 03:40 PM |
I would think that a purpose built autocross damper would be very welcome over here. Double and triple adjustable, aluminum bodies, remote resevoirs and variety of spring/valving packages available would likely be well recieved.
Sticking with stock attatchment points would be the best bet since few classes allow for freedom in that area. Ease of maintenance and support would go a looong way. Not having to wait months for a rebuild or revalving could be a nice way to pinch the current offerings from Japan.
Jay Storm
Sticking with stock attatchment points would be the best bet since few classes allow for freedom in that area. Ease of maintenance and support would go a looong way. Not having to wait months for a rebuild or revalving could be a nice way to pinch the current offerings from Japan.
Jay Storm
| ratt_finkel | 11-29-2004 03:47 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]So for stock, it'd be nice to have a set of Sturts that can use the stock springs with some great rebound/compression curves... but 'the market' IMHO, would be STX -> STS -> ESP.[/QUOTE]
KC makes a good point. I think you might also have a market in selling a shock and front swaybar package. As those are the only suspensions mods allowed in stock. Personally, I looked at your front swaybar. But was dissapointed that the biggest you made was the 22mm for the "old" imprezza. Maybe offer the bigger 24 and 26mm for us U.S. guys, that would be nice. :)
KC makes a good point. I think you might also have a market in selling a shock and front swaybar package. As those are the only suspensions mods allowed in stock. Personally, I looked at your front swaybar. But was dissapointed that the biggest you made was the 22mm for the "old" imprezza. Maybe offer the bigger 24 and 26mm for us U.S. guys, that would be nice. :)
| Arnie | 11-29-2004 07:25 PM |
Jay, was wondering how many folk actually know how to adjust their struts for a given situation? Its one thing to do a single adjustable...but to also be able to predict the results of compression damping adjustment (and even low and high speed adjustments as well on some struts)? Like most say, there are more ways to mess up your handling than improve it. I'm just wondering if it makes sense to even offer that complicated a setup to the masses? I know folks like Moton and Koni have setups like this but they are quite pricey and I question the feasability in selling this sort of thing to the masses.
| DrBiggly | 11-29-2004 07:44 PM |
Arnie,
I agree with you. Honestly a VAST majority of the folks who get coilovers do not need them at all; but they want them for bling factor/bragging/neato/whatever. Do I need coilovers? I've convinced myself that I do through a lot of rationalization, not unlike what most others I'm sure have done. Granted my car is dedicated to National-level autox so of course in my own mind I feel justified. That doesn't mean that I don't question myself now and then. If I weren't doing that then I'd be rid of them pretty quickly. :)
I agree with you. Honestly a VAST majority of the folks who get coilovers do not need them at all; but they want them for bling factor/bragging/neato/whatever. Do I need coilovers? I've convinced myself that I do through a lot of rationalization, not unlike what most others I'm sure have done. Granted my car is dedicated to National-level autox so of course in my own mind I feel justified. That doesn't mean that I don't question myself now and then. If I weren't doing that then I'd be rid of them pretty quickly. :)
| Draken | 11-29-2004 07:44 PM |
Arnie, interesting point. However..there are already countless single adjustable strut packages available for the RS and WRX/STi for the masses. IMO...what is missing is a serious autocross level package. That is what Storm is reffering too. Not everybody should or will buy a double adjustable unit. I would have in a heartbeat given a realistic price when i bought my setup for ESP.
Until there is an "off-the-shelf" serious package available, the national level autocrossers will either settle for cheaper units, or go the way of custom Konis or Advanced Design etc. And many of those places admittadly don't have Subaru autocross experience...but they do have tons of experience to draw off of.
Chris H.
'04 STi (ESP/STU/SM)
Until there is an "off-the-shelf" serious package available, the national level autocrossers will either settle for cheaper units, or go the way of custom Konis or Advanced Design etc. And many of those places admittadly don't have Subaru autocross experience...but they do have tons of experience to draw off of.
Chris H.
'04 STi (ESP/STU/SM)
| Arnie | 11-29-2004 08:15 PM |
Hmm, is it possible to have an "off the shelf" solution at the sharp end of competition or is it all very custom spec anyway? I suppose "off the shelf" would imply a certain common denominator in performance requirements and I wonder if there is such a thing at that level and if it could even be made "affordable". Most seem to be balking at the $2500 price of the Group 4's, would be people be willing to pay up to 3-4k for an off the shelf solution? What are the price's for the Motons and Penske's, etc.?
Or are you talking "off the shelf" as in, it is base line tuned for an Impreza (given specific tire use and respective spring and roll bars). then fine tuning would be done by the individual? How much fine tuning is really needed if the basic system is tuned for a specific spring rate, roll bar combo and tire combo? Or do people still make drastic changes due to their driving styles or tastes?
Or are you talking "off the shelf" as in, it is base line tuned for an Impreza (given specific tire use and respective spring and roll bars). then fine tuning would be done by the individual? How much fine tuning is really needed if the basic system is tuned for a specific spring rate, roll bar combo and tire combo? Or do people still make drastic changes due to their driving styles or tastes?
| adhowe70 | 11-29-2004 08:26 PM |
I've run both the cheapo single adjustable off the shelf stuff (KYB AGX) and the high end double adjustable stuff (Penske 8100 series). The double adjustable unit is light years ahead of the cheap stuff.
Coilovers are good in stock as long as they can receive the stock spring and can put the spring in the stock location. If I were developing a mass produced type kit, I'd offer a double adjustable coilover with remote reservoirs and gas pressure adjustment. I'd offer it without springs and with choices of spring perches (for stock spring and for a specific size off the shelf spring). With the stock style perches, I'd fix the spring perch in the stock location before shipping (doesn't have to be welded anymore) and remind the customer to check the perch location during installation. I'd offer two sets of valving, one for stock springs and one for the high spring rates that the guys in SP/SM/ST are going to run.
Andy H.
Arnie... Ankeny Racing Enterprises charges $750 per unit ($3000 per set) for the Penske 8100's for the S2000 (shocks only, no springs). If the unit was readily rebuildable and easy to adjust, I'd spend $3000 for a set of struts valved for the Subaru. I'd also keep sending them back to you with requests for valving upgrades. Also, I'd expect you to keep a chart of what different owners have asked for so that you can keep improving the "off the shelf" unit over time.
My S2000 was previously owned by a top notch driver. When I bought it, it already had the shocks on it. It came with his setup notes, etc. During a whole year of driving, I deviated from his setup slightly. I stiffened the front sway bar (shortened the lever arm approx. 1/2"), stiffened front rebound (1/12 of the total adjustment range), raised rear gas pressure 25 psi (150 - 175) and softened rear compression slightly (1/6 of the total adjustment range). I put the car in the top 5 at Nationals for the 3rd consecutive year. I don't think driving style is going to be a huge thing.
Coilovers are good in stock as long as they can receive the stock spring and can put the spring in the stock location. If I were developing a mass produced type kit, I'd offer a double adjustable coilover with remote reservoirs and gas pressure adjustment. I'd offer it without springs and with choices of spring perches (for stock spring and for a specific size off the shelf spring). With the stock style perches, I'd fix the spring perch in the stock location before shipping (doesn't have to be welded anymore) and remind the customer to check the perch location during installation. I'd offer two sets of valving, one for stock springs and one for the high spring rates that the guys in SP/SM/ST are going to run.
Andy H.
Arnie... Ankeny Racing Enterprises charges $750 per unit ($3000 per set) for the Penske 8100's for the S2000 (shocks only, no springs). If the unit was readily rebuildable and easy to adjust, I'd spend $3000 for a set of struts valved for the Subaru. I'd also keep sending them back to you with requests for valving upgrades. Also, I'd expect you to keep a chart of what different owners have asked for so that you can keep improving the "off the shelf" unit over time.
My S2000 was previously owned by a top notch driver. When I bought it, it already had the shocks on it. It came with his setup notes, etc. During a whole year of driving, I deviated from his setup slightly. I stiffened the front sway bar (shortened the lever arm approx. 1/2"), stiffened front rebound (1/12 of the total adjustment range), raised rear gas pressure 25 psi (150 - 175) and softened rear compression slightly (1/6 of the total adjustment range). I put the car in the top 5 at Nationals for the 3rd consecutive year. I don't think driving style is going to be a huge thing.
| DrBiggly | 11-29-2004 08:51 PM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]Or do people still make drastic changes due to their driving styles or tastes?[/QUOTE]
As mentioned by Adhowe70, most folks' driving styles aren't that much different for autox; fast is fast and there isn't a whole terrible lot of deviation. He obviously didn't change a whole lot on the setup and was placing right where the previous driver had. I'd say that's a pretty good example of once you get something right, very little needs to be changed. Just a few small tweaks here and there. :)
As mentioned by Adhowe70, most folks' driving styles aren't that much different for autox; fast is fast and there isn't a whole terrible lot of deviation. He obviously didn't change a whole lot on the setup and was placing right where the previous driver had. I'd say that's a pretty good example of once you get something right, very little needs to be changed. Just a few small tweaks here and there. :)
| Arnie | 11-29-2004 09:01 PM |
Are remote reservoirs really necessary for autocross? It doesn't seem like fade would be an issue for the short durations of an autocross. the huge 46mm piston of the Group 4 certainly has some decent capacity. Or is there another reason to have remote reservoirs? Ease of adjustability or something?
Andy - at the national level, are people running very similar setups on their cars? I mean are all the Subaru's running similar spring, strut, sway bar, rates, etc.? I'm just wondering if, in your situation with the S2000, it was the case of learning around a given system and making slight adjustments to suit your tastes, or if given the choice and a blank check, you would have set the car up very differently? Just thinking along the "more than one way to skin a cat" scenario.
Maybe Tony can let some other Subaru driver's take a drive in his Group 4 equipped car at nationals this year (if he goes), so there can be a back to back comparison with your average national level setup and the current whiteline setup.
Great input guys, makes me itch to get back in the autox game again. Its only been about 15 years since I last competed. :lol:
Andy - at the national level, are people running very similar setups on their cars? I mean are all the Subaru's running similar spring, strut, sway bar, rates, etc.? I'm just wondering if, in your situation with the S2000, it was the case of learning around a given system and making slight adjustments to suit your tastes, or if given the choice and a blank check, you would have set the car up very differently? Just thinking along the "more than one way to skin a cat" scenario.
Maybe Tony can let some other Subaru driver's take a drive in his Group 4 equipped car at nationals this year (if he goes), so there can be a back to back comparison with your average national level setup and the current whiteline setup.
Great input guys, makes me itch to get back in the autox game again. Its only been about 15 years since I last competed. :lol:
| DrBiggly | 11-29-2004 09:08 PM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]Are remote reservoirs really necessary for autocross? It doesn't seem like fade would be an issue for the short durations of an autocross. the huge 46mm piston of the Group 4 certainly has some decent capacity. Or is there another reason to have remote reservoirs? Ease of adjustability or something?[/quote]
No reason for remote reservoirs for autox IMO. :)
[quote=Arnie]
Andy - at the national level, are people running very similar setups on their cars? I mean are all the Subaru's running similar spring, strut, sway bar, rates, etc.? I'm just wondering if, in your situation with the S2000, it was the case of learning around a given system and making slight adjustments to suit your tastes, or if given the choice and a blank check, you would have set the car up very differently? Just thinking along the "more than one way to skin a cat" scenario. [/quote]
I can say that quite a few of the Subaru folks in STX were running very similar setups. Most were on 8k/10k setups (with one or two being 10k/12k I think) this past year. Bars and things like alignment, etc were up to the drivers.
[quote=arnie]
Maybe Tony can let some other Subaru driver's take a drive in his Group 4 equipped car at nationals this year (if he goes), so there can be a back to back comparison with your average national level setup and the current whiteline setup.
Great input guys, makes me itch to get back in the autox game again. Its only been about 15 years since I last competed. :lol:[/QUOTE]
If he's anywhere near me, he can come to any of my events and we can swap if he likes. (What's his location? I didn't look.)
No reason for remote reservoirs for autox IMO. :)
[quote=Arnie]
Andy - at the national level, are people running very similar setups on their cars? I mean are all the Subaru's running similar spring, strut, sway bar, rates, etc.? I'm just wondering if, in your situation with the S2000, it was the case of learning around a given system and making slight adjustments to suit your tastes, or if given the choice and a blank check, you would have set the car up very differently? Just thinking along the "more than one way to skin a cat" scenario. [/quote]
I can say that quite a few of the Subaru folks in STX were running very similar setups. Most were on 8k/10k setups (with one or two being 10k/12k I think) this past year. Bars and things like alignment, etc were up to the drivers.
[quote=arnie]
Maybe Tony can let some other Subaru driver's take a drive in his Group 4 equipped car at nationals this year (if he goes), so there can be a back to back comparison with your average national level setup and the current whiteline setup.
Great input guys, makes me itch to get back in the autox game again. Its only been about 15 years since I last competed. :lol:[/QUOTE]
If he's anywhere near me, he can come to any of my events and we can swap if he likes. (What's his location? I didn't look.)
| Arnie | 11-29-2004 09:18 PM |
Thank, Herr Biggly! What struts are people on mostly? JIC and Cusco? TEIN? I'm trying to get a sense of what people are using and why. People are using pretty stiff spring rates and I'm trying to see why. Is it for roll control, maintaining contact patch, rotation, etc.? What size swaybars are they using front or rear? What ride heights are people at? Typical alignment settings? What tires? usually Hoosiers at the top level?
Tony's in Canada, London Ontario. D'oh!
Tony's in Canada, London Ontario. D'oh!
| Draken | 11-29-2004 09:55 PM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]I'm just wondering if, in your situation with the S2000, it was the case of learning around a given system and making slight adjustments to suit your tastes, or if given the choice and a blank check, you would have set the car up very differently? Just thinking along the "more than one way to skin a cat" scenario.[/quote]
With the S2000 in particular, there are several top drivers that have essentially pin-pointed a great B-stock setup. People deviate very little. Which leads me too...
[QUOTE=Arnie]
Maybe Tony can let some other Subaru driver's take a drive in his Group 4 equipped car at nationals this year (if he goes), so there can be a back to back comparison with your average national level setup and the current whiteline setup.
[/QUOTE]
Have you seen this chart, as posted by Tom a few times:
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/compare.jpg[/img]
The Whitelines are the race spec. As you can see...the improvements made to STX/SP Subaru shock valving over the past few years has made some dramatic changes to the low speed rebound valving. This is used in many autocross cars, most famous of which was the Neon ACR. Brian Priebe did some specific testing on STS class Subie 2.5RS years back too, with much success.
What you'll notice, is that the improvements made with regard to custom valving for autocross take the valving dramatically away from the whiteline units. It will be very difficult to persuade people to go back to a unit who's specs mimick those of lesser performing shocks that we ran on years ago.
It would be like, for example...Andy taking the Penskes and bars off his S2000, after it just won two consecutive national championships, and throwing on some struts who's valving mimiked a stock unit, or a cheap performance strut. That does not follow the principle of "another way to skin a cat". It follows the principle, "how can i make my car slower in autocross."
Just my opinion. And i digress, because this is not a discussion of Whiteline products. I have learned much from Jim's posts, and am very happy he has asked the questions he has.
Chris H.
With the S2000 in particular, there are several top drivers that have essentially pin-pointed a great B-stock setup. People deviate very little. Which leads me too...
[QUOTE=Arnie]
Maybe Tony can let some other Subaru driver's take a drive in his Group 4 equipped car at nationals this year (if he goes), so there can be a back to back comparison with your average national level setup and the current whiteline setup.
[/QUOTE]
Have you seen this chart, as posted by Tom a few times:
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/compare.jpg[/img]
The Whitelines are the race spec. As you can see...the improvements made to STX/SP Subaru shock valving over the past few years has made some dramatic changes to the low speed rebound valving. This is used in many autocross cars, most famous of which was the Neon ACR. Brian Priebe did some specific testing on STS class Subie 2.5RS years back too, with much success.
What you'll notice, is that the improvements made with regard to custom valving for autocross take the valving dramatically away from the whiteline units. It will be very difficult to persuade people to go back to a unit who's specs mimick those of lesser performing shocks that we ran on years ago.
It would be like, for example...Andy taking the Penskes and bars off his S2000, after it just won two consecutive national championships, and throwing on some struts who's valving mimiked a stock unit, or a cheap performance strut. That does not follow the principle of "another way to skin a cat". It follows the principle, "how can i make my car slower in autocross."
Just my opinion. And i digress, because this is not a discussion of Whiteline products. I have learned much from Jim's posts, and am very happy he has asked the questions he has.
Chris H.
| adhowe70 | 11-29-2004 10:24 PM |
Edit... What he said ^ Except McKee was first and second in my car before I bought it.
What happens in autocross is that you MUST have a car that you can drive very agressively in a slalom. This just screams for ultra stiff slow speed rebound valving. Its to the point where you just live with the nastiness that happens with the high speed valving on the ultra rough North Course at Nationals.
Arnie,
IMO, remote reservoirs aren't necessary, but they are nice. Having them let me change the gas pressure without any hassle at all. And it made the compression adjustment a piece of cake.
Regarding the Honda... its a known setup. The top 5 places were taken by 3 cars (my car, Saini's car and Wynveen's car), two on Penskes and one on Motons. A car using DA Konis was 6th and was the top "outlier" when it came to setup. The rules for engagement with the stock S2000 was to control wheelspin and prevent bumpsteer (dynamic rear toe out under bump). So, you run the stiffest front sway bar you can find (I think we all used the same one modified in exactly the same way) and combine that with very similar shock valving.
In 2002, two cars (McKee and Saini) ran essentially identical setups. Since then, Saini and Wynveen have developed what I'd call the next evolution of the setup that's on mine: one more iteration of shock valving development to control the bumpsteer. Having said that, I know I *CAN* drive my car well enough to turn the same times as the top drivers, so the next evolution isn't a ton better. Since this was my first year in a RWD car, I'll chalk up the 5th place to the driver, not the car.
As for Scooby struts, Chris Hartman (top 10 in ESP, Draken on this board) was on Tein's I believe.
Andy
What happens in autocross is that you MUST have a car that you can drive very agressively in a slalom. This just screams for ultra stiff slow speed rebound valving. Its to the point where you just live with the nastiness that happens with the high speed valving on the ultra rough North Course at Nationals.
Arnie,
IMO, remote reservoirs aren't necessary, but they are nice. Having them let me change the gas pressure without any hassle at all. And it made the compression adjustment a piece of cake.
Regarding the Honda... its a known setup. The top 5 places were taken by 3 cars (my car, Saini's car and Wynveen's car), two on Penskes and one on Motons. A car using DA Konis was 6th and was the top "outlier" when it came to setup. The rules for engagement with the stock S2000 was to control wheelspin and prevent bumpsteer (dynamic rear toe out under bump). So, you run the stiffest front sway bar you can find (I think we all used the same one modified in exactly the same way) and combine that with very similar shock valving.
In 2002, two cars (McKee and Saini) ran essentially identical setups. Since then, Saini and Wynveen have developed what I'd call the next evolution of the setup that's on mine: one more iteration of shock valving development to control the bumpsteer. Having said that, I know I *CAN* drive my car well enough to turn the same times as the top drivers, so the next evolution isn't a ton better. Since this was my first year in a RWD car, I'll chalk up the 5th place to the driver, not the car.
As for Scooby struts, Chris Hartman (top 10 in ESP, Draken on this board) was on Tein's I believe.
Andy
| Draken | 11-29-2004 10:44 PM |
Yeah..sorry, I am on off the shelf Tein Flex with 10K/8K setup. Based on my limited events with the car (including nationals) i will revalve for a bit more slow speed rebound in the front, and actually less rebound in the rear to keep the inside rear from bobbing off the ground (which gets the diff doing funky things.)
I beleive the Tein Flex in 10/8 setup are getting fairly close to Hoppe's custom valving, but i cant find the dyno graph i had.
I'm also running stiff anti-roll bars, good camber, toe etc...so no, we aren't trying to make the shocks do everything.
Chris H.
I beleive the Tein Flex in 10/8 setup are getting fairly close to Hoppe's custom valving, but i cant find the dyno graph i had.
I'm also running stiff anti-roll bars, good camber, toe etc...so no, we aren't trying to make the shocks do everything.
Chris H.
| Storm | 11-29-2004 11:36 PM |
I'll use this reasoning for myself only. If we're getting beat by folks running these highly adjustable suspension setups but can beat the guys running setups closer to ours(and all other things being close to equal), then obviously I want to step up the ladder to maximize the potential. If I don't understand how to make the right moves, I will either find someone who does and enlist their help, or properly test until I find the best setup. Of course there will be a learning curve to overcome, but what adjustable system doesn't have this curve? For that matter, [I]any system[/I].
[QUOTE=Arnie]Jay, was wondering how many folk actually know how to adjust their struts for a given situation? Its one thing to do a single adjustable...but to also be able to predict the results of compression damping adjustment (and even low and high speed adjustments as well on some struts)? Like most say, there are more ways to mess up your handling than improve it. I'm just wondering if it makes sense to even offer that complicated a setup to the masses? I know folks like Moton and Koni have setups like this but they are quite pricey and I question the feasability in selling this sort of thing to the masses.[/QUOTE]
I never intended to suggest such an involved system for joe blow who has alot of money but no clue as to tuning outside of swiping credit cards.
For probably 90% of this (Subaru autocross) community, what's out there currently is fine. For the others who truly want no comprimises, we are very limited. I personally have been working to try and get something made in USA to eliminate global phone calls, translations, and shipping delays. It's a tough sell, but I'm trying.
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
[QUOTE=Arnie]Jay, was wondering how many folk actually know how to adjust their struts for a given situation? Its one thing to do a single adjustable...but to also be able to predict the results of compression damping adjustment (and even low and high speed adjustments as well on some struts)? Like most say, there are more ways to mess up your handling than improve it. I'm just wondering if it makes sense to even offer that complicated a setup to the masses? I know folks like Moton and Koni have setups like this but they are quite pricey and I question the feasability in selling this sort of thing to the masses.[/QUOTE]
I never intended to suggest such an involved system for joe blow who has alot of money but no clue as to tuning outside of swiping credit cards.
For probably 90% of this (Subaru autocross) community, what's out there currently is fine. For the others who truly want no comprimises, we are very limited. I personally have been working to try and get something made in USA to eliminate global phone calls, translations, and shipping delays. It's a tough sell, but I'm trying.
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
| z3coupe | 11-29-2004 11:51 PM |
[QUOTE]but 'the market' IMHO, would be STX -> STS -> ESP[/QUOTE] Hey KC!!!!! You leaving those of us in the new STU out of this? :mad: :devil: :D
But now the problem is getting anything for the new 05 STi. Its different than the 04. And so far, with just tires and Cobb swaybars, its night and day different than my 04, let alone the WRX's. And from what I have been told, it comes stock with something like 5.5 of castor too!
But now the problem is getting anything for the new 05 STi. Its different than the 04. And so far, with just tires and Cobb swaybars, its night and day different than my 04, let alone the WRX's. And from what I have been told, it comes stock with something like 5.5 of castor too!
| WL Flatout | 11-30-2004 01:22 AM |
Wow, go to sleep for a night and see what happens!! :eek:
Fantastic feedback everyone, I guess this si the right forum for this discussion :D .
Thanks for the help.
Remote canister shocks;
To a degree, this is necessary for proper independent bump and rebound adjustment also allowing changes to high and low speed rebound. However, it does add considerable cost for little benefit for AutoX in a cost/value equation, in our opinion. The other up side is that of better heat dissipation etc but I would agree with most that this is not an issue for AutoX or short spring racing on a decent surface.
Just a little background on our development work, we made a decision 2 years ago that independent bump/rebound was not worth pursuing for the Group 4's because it was considered too costly and potentially too dangerous for the possible benefits. I'd like to reiterate that all of our wins and achievements have been established using a Group 4 single composite adjustable damper.
The bottom line is I think we can achieve 99% of what we need with a Group 4 style unit albeit with base-line valving to tailored for AutoX.
Group 4 Race spec graph;
This looks about right though we�re not sure on the Sti stock plots. Needless to say the proposed Group 4 AutoX units will be quite different ;) However, I�d like to stress again that comparing these plots with out knowing travel lengths etc is misleading. Whiteline have a very different philosophy compared with the other brands in that we provide as much suspension travel as possible to maximise traction. Hence, the actual dynamic outcome will vary from the static plot. Please refer previous post and [url]http://www.suspensionparts.info/showthread.php?s=&threadid=272[/url]
STI MY05 stuff;
All the main work on parts for this car has been completed including bars, alignment products, bracing and posted on the site via a fact sheet located at [url]http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/fact_sheets/CK_Sti_MY05.pdf[/url] . This includes dedicated Sti MY05 Group 4�s which will be in stock in a week or 2. These can be converted to a variety of specs as required.
Swaybar size alternatives (all in the catalogue);
For the GC platform (94-00)
We offer XRD part number X3001 adjustable front bar in 27 mm nominal. Its actually a hybrid with 27 mm centre and 24 mm dia tapered ends and bush mount point. As developed for and used in our WRX race cars. X3005 is adjustable 24 mm rear and X3002 is a 27 mm rear hybrid.
For the GD platform (01 on)
We offer XRD part number X3003 adjustable front bar in 27 mm (hybrid). Rear 24 mm adjustable as BSR36XZ for earlier cars with stock non-ball joint link, BSR37XZ for later cars with ball joint style link.
We can release a 27 mm hyrbrid rear also if someone can give us a compelling argument for doing so ;)
Overall, we are aiming to deliver a purpose tuned Group 4 AutoX set for around $2K US with springs. This should allow for a very strong base with reasonable spring rates based on a 63 mm ID spring main/tender system. I guess one other question we would have is whether or not to offer the Group 4 AutoX with or with out springs as some of the target market may already have a collection. Only problem with this is that we use cold wound chrome-vanadium springs with a shorter closed height than many cheaper race coil alternatives.
Anyway, would appreciate any more feedback.
Cheers
Jim
Whiteline Automotive
Fantastic feedback everyone, I guess this si the right forum for this discussion :D .
Thanks for the help.
Remote canister shocks;
To a degree, this is necessary for proper independent bump and rebound adjustment also allowing changes to high and low speed rebound. However, it does add considerable cost for little benefit for AutoX in a cost/value equation, in our opinion. The other up side is that of better heat dissipation etc but I would agree with most that this is not an issue for AutoX or short spring racing on a decent surface.
Just a little background on our development work, we made a decision 2 years ago that independent bump/rebound was not worth pursuing for the Group 4's because it was considered too costly and potentially too dangerous for the possible benefits. I'd like to reiterate that all of our wins and achievements have been established using a Group 4 single composite adjustable damper.
The bottom line is I think we can achieve 99% of what we need with a Group 4 style unit albeit with base-line valving to tailored for AutoX.
Group 4 Race spec graph;
This looks about right though we�re not sure on the Sti stock plots. Needless to say the proposed Group 4 AutoX units will be quite different ;) However, I�d like to stress again that comparing these plots with out knowing travel lengths etc is misleading. Whiteline have a very different philosophy compared with the other brands in that we provide as much suspension travel as possible to maximise traction. Hence, the actual dynamic outcome will vary from the static plot. Please refer previous post and [url]http://www.suspensionparts.info/showthread.php?s=&threadid=272[/url]
STI MY05 stuff;
All the main work on parts for this car has been completed including bars, alignment products, bracing and posted on the site via a fact sheet located at [url]http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/fact_sheets/CK_Sti_MY05.pdf[/url] . This includes dedicated Sti MY05 Group 4�s which will be in stock in a week or 2. These can be converted to a variety of specs as required.
Swaybar size alternatives (all in the catalogue);
For the GC platform (94-00)
We offer XRD part number X3001 adjustable front bar in 27 mm nominal. Its actually a hybrid with 27 mm centre and 24 mm dia tapered ends and bush mount point. As developed for and used in our WRX race cars. X3005 is adjustable 24 mm rear and X3002 is a 27 mm rear hybrid.
For the GD platform (01 on)
We offer XRD part number X3003 adjustable front bar in 27 mm (hybrid). Rear 24 mm adjustable as BSR36XZ for earlier cars with stock non-ball joint link, BSR37XZ for later cars with ball joint style link.
We can release a 27 mm hyrbrid rear also if someone can give us a compelling argument for doing so ;)
Overall, we are aiming to deliver a purpose tuned Group 4 AutoX set for around $2K US with springs. This should allow for a very strong base with reasonable spring rates based on a 63 mm ID spring main/tender system. I guess one other question we would have is whether or not to offer the Group 4 AutoX with or with out springs as some of the target market may already have a collection. Only problem with this is that we use cold wound chrome-vanadium springs with a shorter closed height than many cheaper race coil alternatives.
Anyway, would appreciate any more feedback.
Cheers
Jim
Whiteline Automotive
| PhilC | 11-30-2004 09:11 AM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]Andy - at the national level, are people running very similar setups on their cars? I mean are all the Subaru's running similar spring, strut, sway bar, rates, etc.?[/QUOTE]
From what I saw this year it's still kind of a mixed bag at Nationals in STX as far as dampers go. All of this is from what I remember and was told so keep in mind that it may not be completely accurate. Josh was on off the shelf Progress units, Mike was on custom DA Konis, Tom and KC both use Teins custom valved, I saw several sets of Teins (Flex, RA, HA) that I suspect were mostly off the shelf, Steve and I were on custom JICs, there were at least two other cars there on JICs but I have no idea if they were off the shelf or not, and there were at least one car there on the Cusco, Zeal and DMS setups that I saw. There were also several cars on Konis with ground controls. Most everyone who is using units that are not off the shelf were using some combination of 8k/10k/12k springs at least as far as they were admitting. Sway bars were all over the board from what I saw.
If I remember right the only car in STX that had remote resevoirs was one of the BMWs who was on Motons. Who really knows what the future holds but I really think that suspension development in STX has a long way to go, at least on the Subarus.
From what I saw this year it's still kind of a mixed bag at Nationals in STX as far as dampers go. All of this is from what I remember and was told so keep in mind that it may not be completely accurate. Josh was on off the shelf Progress units, Mike was on custom DA Konis, Tom and KC both use Teins custom valved, I saw several sets of Teins (Flex, RA, HA) that I suspect were mostly off the shelf, Steve and I were on custom JICs, there were at least two other cars there on JICs but I have no idea if they were off the shelf or not, and there were at least one car there on the Cusco, Zeal and DMS setups that I saw. There were also several cars on Konis with ground controls. Most everyone who is using units that are not off the shelf were using some combination of 8k/10k/12k springs at least as far as they were admitting. Sway bars were all over the board from what I saw.
If I remember right the only car in STX that had remote resevoirs was one of the BMWs who was on Motons. Who really knows what the future holds but I really think that suspension development in STX has a long way to go, at least on the Subarus.
| KC | 11-30-2004 09:47 AM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]Tom and KC both use Teins custom valved, I saw several sets of Teins (Flex, RA, HA) that I suspect were mostly off the shelf.[/QUOTE]
I had off the shelf RAs with just higher spring rates.
I had off the shelf RAs with just higher spring rates.
| stxwrxracer | 11-30-2004 02:10 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]
Who really knows what the future holds but I really think that suspension development in STX has a long way to go, at least on the Subarus.[/QUOTE]
Oh yes it does....as usual, just found an extra 1.0-1.5 seconds on a 45-60 second course in my WRX...helps to be able to develop what you bolt on the week b4 Nats...too bad its parted out now. And no, its not rolling on FK451s....its something that no one will ever guess would help a WRX...I'll be taking bids for the info starting now... :devil:
Mike King
Who really knows what the future holds but I really think that suspension development in STX has a long way to go, at least on the Subarus.[/QUOTE]
Oh yes it does....as usual, just found an extra 1.0-1.5 seconds on a 45-60 second course in my WRX...helps to be able to develop what you bolt on the week b4 Nats...too bad its parted out now. And no, its not rolling on FK451s....its something that no one will ever guess would help a WRX...I'll be taking bids for the info starting now... :devil:
Mike King
| rautox | 11-30-2004 02:34 PM |
Spinners! I KNEW it!! :)
| wrx2.0 555 | 11-30-2004 02:40 PM |
[QUOTE=stxwrxracer]Oh yes it does....as usual, just found an extra 1.0-1.5 seconds on a 45-60 second course in my WRX...helps to be able to develop what you bolt on the week b4 Nats...too bad its parted out now. And no, its not rolling on FK451s....its something that no one will ever guess would help a WRX...I'll be taking bids for the info starting now... :devil:
Mike King[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=7]NO[/SIZE] Dont do it..........I need some kind of advantage over "Teh FastArest STX WRX w/ slow driver" :D ;)
Mike King[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=7]NO[/SIZE] Dont do it..........I need some kind of advantage over "Teh FastArest STX WRX w/ slow driver" :D ;)
| DrBiggly | 11-30-2004 02:48 PM |
[QUOTE=stxwrxracer]Oh yes it does....as usual, just found an extra 1.0-1.5 seconds on a 45-60 second course in my WRX...helps to be able to develop what you bolt on the week b4 Nats...too bad its parted out now. And no, its not rolling on FK451s....its something that no one will ever guess would help a WRX...I'll be taking bids for the info starting now... :devil:
Mike King[/QUOTE]
Mike,
So are you campaigning in STX for '05 or not? :confused: I had heard that you were going to do something else. If you are staying, the only thing I could think of that would seem like it wouldn't help a WRX would be 18" wheels or something equally counter-intuitive.
If you have parted out the car and are not doing STX next year...I'd like to know where those Konis went. :D
At this point though, unless I find a co-driver with some money I will most likely not be able to pursue the kind of Nats schedule I want to. :(
Mike King[/QUOTE]
Mike,
So are you campaigning in STX for '05 or not? :confused: I had heard that you were going to do something else. If you are staying, the only thing I could think of that would seem like it wouldn't help a WRX would be 18" wheels or something equally counter-intuitive.
If you have parted out the car and are not doing STX next year...I'd like to know where those Konis went. :D
At this point though, unless I find a co-driver with some money I will most likely not be able to pursue the kind of Nats schedule I want to. :(
| stxwrxracer | 11-30-2004 03:17 PM |
[QUOTE=wrx2.0 555][SIZE=7]NO[/SIZE] Dont do it..........I need some kind of advantage over "Teh FastArest STX WRX w/ slow driver" :D ;)[/QUOTE]
HeHeHeh :devil:
HeHeHeh :devil:
| Arnie | 11-30-2004 03:20 PM |
Draken, et al. - so why was there the change to higher slow speed rebound rates? What is it about autocross that needs this sort of valving? Is it for roll control in quick transitions, basically a stiffer low speed setup in general?
Jim - The lifting of the inside rear wheel is pretty common on a lot of the cars out there in autox. I assume that's got to be somewhat detrimental to performance. I was thinking that perhaps more rear droop would be adviseable for this autox application? Or would the additional travel at the outside wheel negate this?
tony - if you are out there...are you getting much inside wheel lift on the tight stuff on your G4's?
Jim - The lifting of the inside rear wheel is pretty common on a lot of the cars out there in autox. I assume that's got to be somewhat detrimental to performance. I was thinking that perhaps more rear droop would be adviseable for this autox application? Or would the additional travel at the outside wheel negate this?
tony - if you are out there...are you getting much inside wheel lift on the tight stuff on your G4's?
| DrBiggly | 11-30-2004 03:21 PM |
[QUOTE=wrx2.0 555][SIZE=7]NO[/SIZE] Dont do it..........I need some kind of advantage over "Teh FastArest STX WRX w/ slow driver" :D ;)[/QUOTE]
You say that as if you don't believe the slow driver part. :lol: Look at my results sometime...
[url]http://www.thscc.com[/url]
You say that as if you don't believe the slow driver part. :lol: Look at my results sometime...
[url]http://www.thscc.com[/url]
| stxwrxracer | 11-30-2004 03:31 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Mike,
So are you campaigning in STX for '05 or not? :confused: I had heard that you were going to do something else. If you are staying, the only thing I could think of that would seem like it wouldn't help a WRX would be 18" wheels or something equally counter-intuitive.
If you have parted out the car and are not doing STX next year...I'd like to know where those Konis went. :D
At this point though, unless I find a co-driver with some money I will most likely not be able to pursue the kind of Nats schedule I want to. :([/QUOTE]
The short story....got a real bad herniated disc(L5-S1) in my back as soon as I got home from Nats...figured out that daily-driving a prepped STX car was not the way to remedy my situation and am now looking for a stock-class car, maybe RX-8, '95 M3, or 330ci. Even though about a DS WRX, but still don't think that's a great idea. So, it sucks...finally found the speed that's been missing from my STX WRX, great timing, but that's fine. I think it'll end up being enough to hold off the Cooper S's new-found speed or anything else for that matter. Lets just say...compared to what I had been running before the Konis went on the car versus what I'm running for time's now...I'd say in the 2-2.5 second range...that's after getting the Koni's on there, switching to MXs on the 17x8 Volks, and the "new mod";). Btw, the Koni's went to a good local home..sorry. I'll let you know if they come available again sometime. So for next year, we'll see...now if only I could get the '05 STi reclassed to BS....
-Mike
So are you campaigning in STX for '05 or not? :confused: I had heard that you were going to do something else. If you are staying, the only thing I could think of that would seem like it wouldn't help a WRX would be 18" wheels or something equally counter-intuitive.
If you have parted out the car and are not doing STX next year...I'd like to know where those Konis went. :D
At this point though, unless I find a co-driver with some money I will most likely not be able to pursue the kind of Nats schedule I want to. :([/QUOTE]
The short story....got a real bad herniated disc(L5-S1) in my back as soon as I got home from Nats...figured out that daily-driving a prepped STX car was not the way to remedy my situation and am now looking for a stock-class car, maybe RX-8, '95 M3, or 330ci. Even though about a DS WRX, but still don't think that's a great idea. So, it sucks...finally found the speed that's been missing from my STX WRX, great timing, but that's fine. I think it'll end up being enough to hold off the Cooper S's new-found speed or anything else for that matter. Lets just say...compared to what I had been running before the Konis went on the car versus what I'm running for time's now...I'd say in the 2-2.5 second range...that's after getting the Koni's on there, switching to MXs on the 17x8 Volks, and the "new mod";). Btw, the Koni's went to a good local home..sorry. I'll let you know if they come available again sometime. So for next year, we'll see...now if only I could get the '05 STi reclassed to BS....
-Mike
| DrBiggly | 11-30-2004 03:51 PM |
That sucks about the Konis; I really had been thinking about those after I had heard you were leaving STX. I totally understand about the back problem; it's not a comfy ride for sure. (Which is why I don't daily drive mine around. My truck rides better! :lol: )
You won't give any hints as to what the new ultra-secret-bat-cave mod is? :confused:
Why? It's not like you're competing in there. I have heard that Bob Tunnel was now prepping a BMW for STX, which makes me go :eek: :( I really hope that we can keep Subarus in the top spots at Nats again in '05. BMWs are fast enough in tons of other classes as it is; it was nice having something that Subarus weren't the underdog in for a change.
You won't give any hints as to what the new ultra-secret-bat-cave mod is? :confused:
Why? It's not like you're competing in there. I have heard that Bob Tunnel was now prepping a BMW for STX, which makes me go :eek: :( I really hope that we can keep Subarus in the top spots at Nats again in '05. BMWs are fast enough in tons of other classes as it is; it was nice having something that Subarus weren't the underdog in for a change.
| ratt_finkel | 11-30-2004 04:11 PM |
[QUOTE=WL Flatout]Swaybar size alternatives (all in the catalogue);
For the GC platform (94-00)
We offer XRD part number X3001 adjustable front bar in 27 mm nominal. Its actually a hybrid with 27 mm centre and 24 mm dia tapered ends and bush mount point. As developed for and used in our WRX race cars. X3005 is adjustable 24 mm rear and X3002 is a 27 mm rear hybrid.
[/QUOTE]
So wait, you DO offer a 27mm front bar for USDM 01 Imprezzas?
If so i'll order one right now.
For the GC platform (94-00)
We offer XRD part number X3001 adjustable front bar in 27 mm nominal. Its actually a hybrid with 27 mm centre and 24 mm dia tapered ends and bush mount point. As developed for and used in our WRX race cars. X3005 is adjustable 24 mm rear and X3002 is a 27 mm rear hybrid.
[/QUOTE]
So wait, you DO offer a 27mm front bar for USDM 01 Imprezzas?
If so i'll order one right now.
| wrx2.0 555 | 11-30-2004 04:16 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]You won't give any hints as to what the new ultra-secret-bat-cave mod is? :confused:
Why? It's not like you're competing in there. [/QUOTE]
There are others.. :D
There are at least two of us from Jax that really want to be able to make Nationals next year. I really dont know how competitive we'll be, but keeping the BMW down will have to be a united cause. ;)
[QUOTE]You say that as if you don't believe the slow driver part. Look at my results sometime... [/QUOTE]
You beat me at the Atlanta challenge... :p
Not to take anything from you, but I had a co-driver and we were running Azenis'. We never had enough time to get the tires cooled back down. Almost as soon as I'd start spraying, they told us to go again. It was kinda aggravating,,, but we were there for the fun of it and my co-driver had never auto-x'd before and had a blast, so all is good. :)
I look forward to competing against you in the future.
Do you do the local Atlanta events? I might see about one of those one day, since I have a place to stay up there.
Scott
Why? It's not like you're competing in there. [/QUOTE]
There are others.. :D
There are at least two of us from Jax that really want to be able to make Nationals next year. I really dont know how competitive we'll be, but keeping the BMW down will have to be a united cause. ;)
[QUOTE]You say that as if you don't believe the slow driver part. Look at my results sometime... [/QUOTE]
You beat me at the Atlanta challenge... :p
Not to take anything from you, but I had a co-driver and we were running Azenis'. We never had enough time to get the tires cooled back down. Almost as soon as I'd start spraying, they told us to go again. It was kinda aggravating,,, but we were there for the fun of it and my co-driver had never auto-x'd before and had a blast, so all is good. :)
I look forward to competing against you in the future.
Do you do the local Atlanta events? I might see about one of those one day, since I have a place to stay up there.
Scott
| adhowe70 | 11-30-2004 08:18 PM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]Draken, et al. - so why was there the change to higher slow speed rebound rates? What is it about autocross that needs this sort of valving? Is it for roll control in quick transitions, basically a stiffer low speed setup in general?[/QUOTE]
Arnie,
The low speed rebound rates are tuned to control roll in transitions (heh... that's all autocross is... transitions), particularly for stock class cars where the shock valving is used to effectively change the wheel rates without actually changing the springs. In ST/SP/SM, where springs are free to change, the high rebound rates are intended to allow drivers to really flog a car in slaloms and be aggressive at corner exit.
Andy H.
Arnie,
The low speed rebound rates are tuned to control roll in transitions (heh... that's all autocross is... transitions), particularly for stock class cars where the shock valving is used to effectively change the wheel rates without actually changing the springs. In ST/SP/SM, where springs are free to change, the high rebound rates are intended to allow drivers to really flog a car in slaloms and be aggressive at corner exit.
Andy H.
| ChrisDP | 11-30-2004 08:52 PM |
Mike, I'll bet I can guess what it is... how much do you charge to keep your mouth SHUT? :) I'm assuming Scott knows, how much do I have to charge to keep HIS mouth shut? :)
| Arnie | 11-30-2004 09:47 PM |
Cool, thanks Andy. that's what I figured.
Let me see I if understand this correctly, folks are using high rates of spring and damping to keep roll in check rather than use swaybars because of a) fear of losing independence of wheel travel (the solid axle fear) and b) because too stiff a bar tends to also lift the rear inside wheel. Does this sound roughly correct?
So, hypothetically speaking, if there was some magic way of keeping the car completely flat in transitions (little to no roll), and that the car's CoG was as properly low as the suspension geometry would allow, would people still be using really high spring and damper rates?
Let me see I if understand this correctly, folks are using high rates of spring and damping to keep roll in check rather than use swaybars because of a) fear of losing independence of wheel travel (the solid axle fear) and b) because too stiff a bar tends to also lift the rear inside wheel. Does this sound roughly correct?
So, hypothetically speaking, if there was some magic way of keeping the car completely flat in transitions (little to no roll), and that the car's CoG was as properly low as the suspension geometry would allow, would people still be using really high spring and damper rates?
| DrBiggly | 11-30-2004 10:24 PM |
[QUOTE=wrx2.0 555]There are others.. :D
There are at least two of us from Jax that really want to be able to make Nationals next year. I really dont know how competitive we'll be, but keeping the BMW down will have to be a united cause. ;)
You beat me at the Atlanta challenge... :p
Not to take anything from you, but I had a co-driver and we were running Azenis'. We never had enough time to get the tires cooled back down. Almost as soon as I'd start spraying, they told us to go again. It was kinda aggravating,,, but we were there for the fun of it and my co-driver had never auto-x'd before and had a blast, so all is good. :)
I look forward to competing against you in the future.
Do you do the local Atlanta events? I might see about one of those one day, since I have a place to stay up there.
Scott[/QUOTE]
I only had a co-driver the heat before and the heat after so I didn't have to worry about as the Azenis greasiness as much as you apparently. (I think someone was kind enough to give me a quick spray before my last run that I coned away.) If I had had water and you needed it, I would have gladly given it to you without a second thought. As far as Atlanta events go, probably not. It's a 6 hour drive and about a 1000 mile round-trip. Not worth it for a local event really. :(
At the Atlanta Challenge I came down there with the mentality that I was going to have to drive at least somewhat worthwhile for a change and I managed some of that. (Of course Tom went out and showed how it's really done and smoked my times by something like a second.)
The thing is, most of the fast folks share their little secrets eventually anyway is what I've found. I heard about the FK-451s early this year and never said anything; I was sworn to secrecy. :rolleyes: Sure, it helped a bit but there were a few folks driving on them at Nationals. Mike knew about them but chose not to run them (at least so I've heard, he would have to confirm.) Really it's about making yourself a better driver and that is why I will be more than happy to tell anyone about the setup I have and exactly what it is, and how it works, etc. It can only make me faster in the end. Worst case if you go to a National Tour, I will eventually figure out what you've done in impound (unless it's something that isn't very visible of course.)
Right now the car is totally protestable because the rear dust shield is not even on the car; I have to fix that soon. (I couldn't take it rattling anymore and had to remove it.)
Hope to see you at another event (be sure to remind me who you are, I have a bad memory. Be sure to use a screen-name; it's easier for me that way.) :)
There are at least two of us from Jax that really want to be able to make Nationals next year. I really dont know how competitive we'll be, but keeping the BMW down will have to be a united cause. ;)
You beat me at the Atlanta challenge... :p
Not to take anything from you, but I had a co-driver and we were running Azenis'. We never had enough time to get the tires cooled back down. Almost as soon as I'd start spraying, they told us to go again. It was kinda aggravating,,, but we were there for the fun of it and my co-driver had never auto-x'd before and had a blast, so all is good. :)
I look forward to competing against you in the future.
Do you do the local Atlanta events? I might see about one of those one day, since I have a place to stay up there.
Scott[/QUOTE]
I only had a co-driver the heat before and the heat after so I didn't have to worry about as the Azenis greasiness as much as you apparently. (I think someone was kind enough to give me a quick spray before my last run that I coned away.) If I had had water and you needed it, I would have gladly given it to you without a second thought. As far as Atlanta events go, probably not. It's a 6 hour drive and about a 1000 mile round-trip. Not worth it for a local event really. :(
At the Atlanta Challenge I came down there with the mentality that I was going to have to drive at least somewhat worthwhile for a change and I managed some of that. (Of course Tom went out and showed how it's really done and smoked my times by something like a second.)
The thing is, most of the fast folks share their little secrets eventually anyway is what I've found. I heard about the FK-451s early this year and never said anything; I was sworn to secrecy. :rolleyes: Sure, it helped a bit but there were a few folks driving on them at Nationals. Mike knew about them but chose not to run them (at least so I've heard, he would have to confirm.) Really it's about making yourself a better driver and that is why I will be more than happy to tell anyone about the setup I have and exactly what it is, and how it works, etc. It can only make me faster in the end. Worst case if you go to a National Tour, I will eventually figure out what you've done in impound (unless it's something that isn't very visible of course.)
Right now the car is totally protestable because the rear dust shield is not even on the car; I have to fix that soon. (I couldn't take it rattling anymore and had to remove it.)
Hope to see you at another event (be sure to remind me who you are, I have a bad memory. Be sure to use a screen-name; it's easier for me that way.) :)
| DrBiggly | 11-30-2004 10:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]So, hypothetically speaking, if there was some magic way of keeping the car completely flat in transitions (little to no roll), and that the car's CoG was as properly low as the suspension geometry would allow, would people still be using really high spring and damper rates?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't use as high of a rate, no. You planning on having Harry Potter as a co-driver or something? :lol: (Still would want a little extra on the rebound for better control though.)
[i]My suspension is just magic yo! [/i] :lol:
I wouldn't use as high of a rate, no. You planning on having Harry Potter as a co-driver or something? :lol: (Still would want a little extra on the rebound for better control though.)
[i]My suspension is just magic yo! [/i] :lol:
| Arnie | 11-30-2004 10:56 PM |
Nah, I'd be asking Hermione instead! We'll probably throw in the FIA approved broomstick in there too! :lol: Though on that note, I wonder why no one has made a nice mahogony strut tower brace? That would be dope! All natural, brotha!
| DrBiggly | 11-30-2004 11:08 PM |
FIA approved broomstick...
Oh wait, isn't that what is going to power the new rally cars after all those changes that Max proposed?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Oh wait, isn't that what is going to power the new rally cars after all those changes that Max proposed?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét