| chimchimm5 | 03-27-2006 06:52 PM |
Chim's cliff notes: sunroof moonroof impreza
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Ok, I just bought the 06 WRX wagon finally and I was in a quandry about the sunroof. I really wanted one, but I'd have to get the Limited version which was harder to find, $3000 more expensive, and came with leather and heated mirrors which I did NOT want; although heated seats would have been nice.
I searched here, google, i-club, etc and got a million threads to read. I don't have time to put all the references, but here is the cliff notes of what I found. This is ONLY WHAT I FOUND and my personal interpretations of it. I do not claim it to be law.
DEFINTION
Sunroof is actually a misnomer. Sunroof is an opening in the roof like a door. Moonroof is the window in the roof. Nowadays, the terms are used interchageably so only the anal really care about which term you use. Plus, if a car has a sun/moon roof option, it usually is a window in the roof that both tilts for ventilation and retreats into the roof completely to open, AND has a shade block light from he window.
SUNROOF LUXURY
I like sunroofs. So do most people. Although no substitute for a real convertable, it is nicer than just a solid roof. It allows additional ventilation and light into the cabin giving it a more open feel.
STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY
Subaru designed a "3 ring" chassis to create a strong chassis structure to protect the occupants. The Bpillar crossmember (bpillars are the supports between the front and rear side windows) runs from one side of the car to the other over the roof. What's interesting, is there is ANOTHER THINNER cross member in front of the Bpillar crossmember, which clear is not there on Impreza models which have sunroofs. The thinner crossmember is clearly not part of the "3 ring" though.
Look at this picture... it's a snap of some guys DIY installing a roof vent, but I'm using it cuz it shows the headliner off. This is a 04 STi.
[IMG]http://i1.tinypic.com/sebngm.jpg[/IMG]
The thicker bar on the right edge is the bpillar cross bar. The thinner crossbar just to the right of the vent is some other cross bar. This latter cross bar clearly cannot be there when a sunroof is in.
I'm an electrical engineer so I only have the basic engineering in common with a mech eng. I believe that any cutting of any cross member will decrease structural rigidity and integrity. HOWEVER, it is important to know HOW MUCH it will be affected. If only the small cross member was cut, I would have no problem with a sunroof. I believe that the factory sunroof REPLACES the bpillar crossmember with one integrated into the frame of the sunroof. (Threads say it is a small sunroof and thin, and the headliner is 2.5" lower)
I called the aftermarket sunroof company (installer for classicsoftrim.com) and they said they **will be cutting the bpillar crossmember** and adding additional bracing. That means:
Factory sunroof is different from the aftermarket sunroof because of the installation, not necessary the quality of the product itself. In fact, it seems that most factory sunroofs are sourced from Inalpha and Webesto (sunroof manufacturers) anyways.
ROLLOVER VS RIGIDITY
There is a difference between rollover and rigidity. No I don't think there is much protection for rollover even if no sunroof is ever put in. Rigidity on the other hand not only affects high performance cornering, but also road impacts (side, offset, front, back, etc)
IS IT SAFE?
Riding a Hummer is safer. Riding a tank is even safer than that. It all depends. I'm sure a WRX with aftermarket sunroof and bpillar cut is safer than a covertable, but less safe than a standard WRX. It's all about wha you're willing to put up with.
MY DECISION
If I could get an aftermarket sunroof that does NOT cut the bpillar (I'm ok with cutting the thin crossmember), I would do it. And yeah, $1300 is a lot but I'd pay for the luxury.
Can I get a factory unit and just have that installed?
Can I chose a different sized aftermarket sunroof and have that installed?
Probably yes to both, but I haven't found them yet.
I won't cut my bpillar because I'm specifically buying this car for it's crash safety AND I'll be buying some chassis stiffeners like rear strut bar. However, if crossmember replacement is provided, then I'd consider it.
OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
Weather proofing I believe is now well addressed, so although things may wear out, I don't believe it'd be any worse than a factory one.
AFTERMARKET RESPONSE
To defend their position (and still try to get my purchas) the installers countered that they are federally regulated on what they can and cannot cut. Plus, when the frame of the sunroof goes in, it has bracing of it's own.
I asked the dealer about the factory sunroof and he believes that a different crossmember is used (which goes around the sunroof cartridge).
Going the aftermarket route does NOT suddenly turn the car into a death trap. But it changes the original design.
MORE PICS
I found an even better picture. Again I'm not concerned with the little bars and they look like they are there just to hold the roof sheet metal shape. But the Bpiller cross bar is pretty beefy. I also read in wrxfanatics that the crossbar on the limited is more like a loop so the sunroof goes THROUGH it.
(ignore the read arrow, they were installing a roof vent)
It looks like the b pillar crossmember is just bolt and welded to the roof chassis rails (sides of the chassis)
[IMG]http://i1.tinypic.com/seysjs.jpg[/IMG]
LINKS
roof vent installs with good pics with headliner removed:
[url]http://www.rallyit.net/vent1.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3665[/url]
[url]http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34430&highlight=roof+vent[/url]
sunroof removed:
[url]http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631&goto=nextoldest[/url]
jaws of life and subaru B pillars
[url]http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB17&Number=68069157&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1[/url]
This one says that the b pillars have 8 layers and
[quote]"not only is the metal in this area (b pillar) thick, it also has a round steel bar section in its core... the round rebar steel rod is only a little of 12 inches long and begins at the dashboard level and ends at almost the height of the roof rail. In this same middle portion of the B pillar there is also an extra layer of exotic metal steel added to the inside and the outside surfaces to further reinforce and strengthen the pillar"[/quote]
... so the thick stuff is only along the height of the windows, and not the roof cross member.
Looking at the picture and with this info, it looks like the cross member, although a part of the "ring", it is actually a weaker portion of the ring. The shape of the cross member suggests it does nothing for rollover, but is designed for lateral rigidity (it resists compression/expansion along the axis of the bar).
I'm thinking, that as long as some kind of substitute bracing is included that reconnects the two ends of the cut crossmember AND are designed to reinforce by providing strength against compression/exp, then it's pretty close to the original structural integrity.
REPAIR MANUAL
This is from the 2004 impreza repair manual... pic of the factory sunroof.
You can see that there are brackets (item 5) that connect to the sunroof. These look like they connect to where the original bpillar crossmember connect. In addition, there are crossmembers integrated into the moonroof frame. Thus, it appears that the moonroof also BECOMES the crossmember as well.
[IMG]http://i1.tinypic.com/sf87k6.jpg[/IMG]
I searched here, google, i-club, etc and got a million threads to read. I don't have time to put all the references, but here is the cliff notes of what I found. This is ONLY WHAT I FOUND and my personal interpretations of it. I do not claim it to be law.
DEFINTION
Sunroof is actually a misnomer. Sunroof is an opening in the roof like a door. Moonroof is the window in the roof. Nowadays, the terms are used interchageably so only the anal really care about which term you use. Plus, if a car has a sun/moon roof option, it usually is a window in the roof that both tilts for ventilation and retreats into the roof completely to open, AND has a shade block light from he window.
SUNROOF LUXURY
I like sunroofs. So do most people. Although no substitute for a real convertable, it is nicer than just a solid roof. It allows additional ventilation and light into the cabin giving it a more open feel.
STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY
Subaru designed a "3 ring" chassis to create a strong chassis structure to protect the occupants. The Bpillar crossmember (bpillars are the supports between the front and rear side windows) runs from one side of the car to the other over the roof. What's interesting, is there is ANOTHER THINNER cross member in front of the Bpillar crossmember, which clear is not there on Impreza models which have sunroofs. The thinner crossmember is clearly not part of the "3 ring" though.
Look at this picture... it's a snap of some guys DIY installing a roof vent, but I'm using it cuz it shows the headliner off. This is a 04 STi.
[IMG]http://i1.tinypic.com/sebngm.jpg[/IMG]
The thicker bar on the right edge is the bpillar cross bar. The thinner crossbar just to the right of the vent is some other cross bar. This latter cross bar clearly cannot be there when a sunroof is in.
I'm an electrical engineer so I only have the basic engineering in common with a mech eng. I believe that any cutting of any cross member will decrease structural rigidity and integrity. HOWEVER, it is important to know HOW MUCH it will be affected. If only the small cross member was cut, I would have no problem with a sunroof. I believe that the factory sunroof REPLACES the bpillar crossmember with one integrated into the frame of the sunroof. (Threads say it is a small sunroof and thin, and the headliner is 2.5" lower)
I called the aftermarket sunroof company (installer for classicsoftrim.com) and they said they **will be cutting the bpillar crossmember** and adding additional bracing. That means:
Factory sunroof is different from the aftermarket sunroof because of the installation, not necessary the quality of the product itself. In fact, it seems that most factory sunroofs are sourced from Inalpha and Webesto (sunroof manufacturers) anyways.
ROLLOVER VS RIGIDITY
There is a difference between rollover and rigidity. No I don't think there is much protection for rollover even if no sunroof is ever put in. Rigidity on the other hand not only affects high performance cornering, but also road impacts (side, offset, front, back, etc)
IS IT SAFE?
Riding a Hummer is safer. Riding a tank is even safer than that. It all depends. I'm sure a WRX with aftermarket sunroof and bpillar cut is safer than a covertable, but less safe than a standard WRX. It's all about wha you're willing to put up with.
MY DECISION
If I could get an aftermarket sunroof that does NOT cut the bpillar (I'm ok with cutting the thin crossmember), I would do it. And yeah, $1300 is a lot but I'd pay for the luxury.
Can I get a factory unit and just have that installed?
Can I chose a different sized aftermarket sunroof and have that installed?
Probably yes to both, but I haven't found them yet.
I won't cut my bpillar because I'm specifically buying this car for it's crash safety AND I'll be buying some chassis stiffeners like rear strut bar. However, if crossmember replacement is provided, then I'd consider it.
OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
Weather proofing I believe is now well addressed, so although things may wear out, I don't believe it'd be any worse than a factory one.
AFTERMARKET RESPONSE
To defend their position (and still try to get my purchas) the installers countered that they are federally regulated on what they can and cannot cut. Plus, when the frame of the sunroof goes in, it has bracing of it's own.
I asked the dealer about the factory sunroof and he believes that a different crossmember is used (which goes around the sunroof cartridge).
Going the aftermarket route does NOT suddenly turn the car into a death trap. But it changes the original design.
MORE PICS
I found an even better picture. Again I'm not concerned with the little bars and they look like they are there just to hold the roof sheet metal shape. But the Bpiller cross bar is pretty beefy. I also read in wrxfanatics that the crossbar on the limited is more like a loop so the sunroof goes THROUGH it.
(ignore the read arrow, they were installing a roof vent)
It looks like the b pillar crossmember is just bolt and welded to the roof chassis rails (sides of the chassis)
[IMG]http://i1.tinypic.com/seysjs.jpg[/IMG]
LINKS
roof vent installs with good pics with headliner removed:
[url]http://www.rallyit.net/vent1.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3665[/url]
[url]http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34430&highlight=roof+vent[/url]
sunroof removed:
[url]http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631&goto=nextoldest[/url]
jaws of life and subaru B pillars
[url]http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB17&Number=68069157&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1[/url]
This one says that the b pillars have 8 layers and
[quote]"not only is the metal in this area (b pillar) thick, it also has a round steel bar section in its core... the round rebar steel rod is only a little of 12 inches long and begins at the dashboard level and ends at almost the height of the roof rail. In this same middle portion of the B pillar there is also an extra layer of exotic metal steel added to the inside and the outside surfaces to further reinforce and strengthen the pillar"[/quote]
... so the thick stuff is only along the height of the windows, and not the roof cross member.
Looking at the picture and with this info, it looks like the cross member, although a part of the "ring", it is actually a weaker portion of the ring. The shape of the cross member suggests it does nothing for rollover, but is designed for lateral rigidity (it resists compression/expansion along the axis of the bar).
I'm thinking, that as long as some kind of substitute bracing is included that reconnects the two ends of the cut crossmember AND are designed to reinforce by providing strength against compression/exp, then it's pretty close to the original structural integrity.
REPAIR MANUAL
This is from the 2004 impreza repair manual... pic of the factory sunroof.
You can see that there are brackets (item 5) that connect to the sunroof. These look like they connect to where the original bpillar crossmember connect. In addition, there are crossmembers integrated into the moonroof frame. Thus, it appears that the moonroof also BECOMES the crossmember as well.
[IMG]http://i1.tinypic.com/sf87k6.jpg[/IMG]
| cefoskey | 03-27-2006 07:00 PM |
As an airframe design engineer, I would just have to say do not discount the load path that the roof sheetmetal itself creates. You dont necessarily have to have stiffening channels with higher I values to get load across the top of the car (granted it sure does help).
That being said, cutting a B pillar cross member definately will not be advantageous to your chassis stiffness. If you are worried at all about that, then you should have bought the limited, sold/traded your interior and avoided having to cut a giant hole in your car.
My $0.02
That being said, cutting a B pillar cross member definately will not be advantageous to your chassis stiffness. If you are worried at all about that, then you should have bought the limited, sold/traded your interior and avoided having to cut a giant hole in your car.
My $0.02
| US2JDM | 03-27-2006 07:02 PM |
In all honesty, I think you'd have been better off buying the Limited Package and swapping out the interior and mirrors with someone. This job will come pretty close to the price difference in the end.
I'd suggest looking for a front or rear hit Impreza with the sunroof and then swapping roof panels and re-painting if necessary (again, this is going to add up quick). I have very little faith in aftermarket sunroof installations.
I'd suggest looking for a front or rear hit Impreza with the sunroof and then swapping roof panels and re-painting if necessary (again, this is going to add up quick). I have very little faith in aftermarket sunroof installations.
| Thumper23 | 03-27-2006 07:03 PM |
I had a Webasto moonroof installed on my '02 WRX from the dealership I bought it. It is one of the things I miss the most about that car. I still think about having one installed in my STi. Florida summers with no leakage whatsoever. Colorado winters with snow piled on top. Never a single problem.
Maybe one day.
Maybe one day.
| chimchimm5 | 03-27-2006 07:23 PM |
[QUOTE=US2JDM]In all honesty, I think you'd have been better off buying the Limited Package and swapping out the interior and mirrors with someone. This job will come pretty close to the price difference in the end.[/QUOTE]
I had thought about this route and I think you're right too... both paths just had their pains.
I had thought about this route and I think you're right too... both paths just had their pains.
| Thumper23 | 03-27-2006 07:37 PM |
[QUOTE=US2JDM]In all honesty, I think you'd have been better off buying the Limited Package and swapping out the interior and mirrors with someone. This job will come pretty close to the price difference in the end.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but I doubt it. The Webesto moonroof is much nice and bigger than the factory one.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but I doubt it. The Webesto moonroof is much nice and bigger than the factory one.
| KAX | 03-27-2006 08:29 PM |
id kinda like to do the thing where the roof was still painted, with no window, and it slid back, either into the roof or up at an angle (think eclipse). i always thought that was a moonroof, and the one with the window was a sunroof, but idk.
| Thumper23 | 03-28-2006 12:38 AM |
[QUOTE=KAX]id kinda like to do the thing where the roof was still painted, with no window, and it slid back, either into the roof or up at an angle (think eclipse). i always thought that was a moonroof, and the one with the window was a sunroof, but idk.[/QUOTE]
Usually, and I use that word liberally, a moonrook (glass) will slide into the roof. Atleast the aftermarket ones will. The sunroofs (not glass) will rise up above the roof.
Usually, and I use that word liberally, a moonrook (glass) will slide into the roof. Atleast the aftermarket ones will. The sunroofs (not glass) will rise up above the roof.
| chimchimm5 | 03-28-2006 02:49 AM |
Bump for a whole bunch of updates in the first post.
| chimchimm5 | 03-28-2006 11:25 AM |
if anyone knows where the "rumored" service bulletin from subaru to the dealers is, can someone point me to it? Supposedly it said something about "don't cut the bpillar crossmember"
| chimchimm5 | 03-28-2006 05:47 PM |
Alright... so I've decided to go through with it. Here's my reason for going forward:
- i want a sunroof and will really enjoy like I did in my last car
- ASC installer is doing it with an Inalfa ASI750
- according to the installer (actual guy doing the work), the two new support beams (which are integrated as a part of the sunroof "cartridge") attach at the top of the a and b pillar points (just like the factory sunroof). This essentially replaces the bpillar cross member with the beams of the cartridge which is designed for this purpose.
- because of the replacement, the ring is NOT BROKEN; although a section is replaced. Thus, I am much less concerned about the structural weakening since the loop is closed. Like the stock crossmember, the replacement resist compression of the ring. Also like the stock crossmember, this is in no way a "roll cage bar".
Since I am taking the plunge, I have asked him to take some pictures along the way. When i get them, I'll post here.
This job is costing me $1300.
- i want a sunroof and will really enjoy like I did in my last car
- ASC installer is doing it with an Inalfa ASI750
- according to the installer (actual guy doing the work), the two new support beams (which are integrated as a part of the sunroof "cartridge") attach at the top of the a and b pillar points (just like the factory sunroof). This essentially replaces the bpillar cross member with the beams of the cartridge which is designed for this purpose.
- because of the replacement, the ring is NOT BROKEN; although a section is replaced. Thus, I am much less concerned about the structural weakening since the loop is closed. Like the stock crossmember, the replacement resist compression of the ring. Also like the stock crossmember, this is in no way a "roll cage bar".
Since I am taking the plunge, I have asked him to take some pictures along the way. When i get them, I'll post here.
This job is costing me $1300.
| anthony_delprete84 | 03-28-2006 06:10 PM |
good lord.....$1300! Guess i will be passing on gettin one on my 05
| anthony_delprete84 | 03-28-2006 06:11 PM |
good lord.....$1300! Guess i will be passing on gettin one on my 05. Ill get plenty of cold air with the windows down if i invest that in a huge turbo
| chimchimm5 | 03-28-2006 06:20 PM |
I know, it's expensive. It's truly a luxury item. $1200 seems to be an average price.
I believe that these guys are very reputable and I needed to make sure this job got done right.
I believe that these guys are very reputable and I needed to make sure this job got done right.
| gdspc | 03-29-2006 11:01 AM |
I had a Webasto moonroof put in my '06 WRX a week after delivery ($900...included as part of the purchase price)....it is bigger than the factory roof. This is my first experience with an aftermarket roof. So far, so good.
| anthony_delprete84 | 03-29-2006 01:26 PM |
$900 is droppin in to my price zone a tad easier
| dantastic | 03-29-2006 01:52 PM |
i was thinking of getting one of these suckers installed: [url]http://www.webasto-us.com/press/en/am_auto_sunroofs_3641.html[/url]
i love the huge opening like on factory Forester and Legacy Wagon moonroofs... i wonder if there is a structural member built in to that piece.
check this out: [url]http://www.webastoshowroom.com/16Subaru_ImprezaWRX_03.html[/url]
i love the huge opening like on factory Forester and Legacy Wagon moonroofs... i wonder if there is a structural member built in to that piece.
check this out: [url]http://www.webastoshowroom.com/16Subaru_ImprezaWRX_03.html[/url]
| Thumper23 | 03-29-2006 03:52 PM |
My Webasto cost $1000 installed at the dealer.
| chimchimm5 | 03-29-2006 05:35 PM |
Ok... I just came back from the actual place they do the installation at. They hadn't yet started on my car, so I had to look at a BMW 328 (and a Chevy Tahoe) that was in progress. He even allowed me to take pictures (which I need to wait till this evenin to upload).
Here's the deal from what I saw:
- plain and simple: SUNROOF/MOONROOFS CUT THE ROOF CROSS MEMERS WHICH CONNECT THE PILLARS TO EACH OTHER, WHICH IN TURN, *MOST LIKELY* REDUCES THE STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY OF THE ORIGINAL DESIGN.
- that being said, it is NOT the same and chopping off a roof; because the moonroof comes as a "cartridge", essentially a metal frame which the moon roof and it's rails and mechanisms are contained within. This cartridge is then bolted (not welded) at 4 to 6 side points along the side roof rails of the chassis. This in effect "reconnects" the acts as a replacement to the crossmembers that were cut
- HOWEVER, the cartridge metal is not as thick and more importantly does NOT contain the the ribs (folds) which make it highly resistant to compression as compared to the original crossmembers.
- modern sunroofs do no try to keep water out. Instead, they have internal drains which lead to tubes to drain. Even my old factory 97 civic sunroof is like this
- so... does the moonroof frame make up for the loss of the crossmember? Well, from what I saw, I don't see how it could. However, that being said, it still does provide SOME make up in structure over just a cut roof. Don't forget that the Apillar and Cpillar crossmembers are not cut
- In examining all the details, it looks like moonroofs, even ones from the factory, weaken the Bpillar cross structure design and thus make the car somewhat more susceptible to SIDE COLLISIONS (T-bone). It looks like it might stiffen is some ways and weaking the stiffness in others.
-
Here's the deal from what I saw:
- plain and simple: SUNROOF/MOONROOFS CUT THE ROOF CROSS MEMERS WHICH CONNECT THE PILLARS TO EACH OTHER, WHICH IN TURN, *MOST LIKELY* REDUCES THE STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY OF THE ORIGINAL DESIGN.
- that being said, it is NOT the same and chopping off a roof; because the moonroof comes as a "cartridge", essentially a metal frame which the moon roof and it's rails and mechanisms are contained within. This cartridge is then bolted (not welded) at 4 to 6 side points along the side roof rails of the chassis. This in effect "reconnects" the acts as a replacement to the crossmembers that were cut
- HOWEVER, the cartridge metal is not as thick and more importantly does NOT contain the the ribs (folds) which make it highly resistant to compression as compared to the original crossmembers.
- modern sunroofs do no try to keep water out. Instead, they have internal drains which lead to tubes to drain. Even my old factory 97 civic sunroof is like this
- so... does the moonroof frame make up for the loss of the crossmember? Well, from what I saw, I don't see how it could. However, that being said, it still does provide SOME make up in structure over just a cut roof. Don't forget that the Apillar and Cpillar crossmembers are not cut
- In examining all the details, it looks like moonroofs, even ones from the factory, weaken the Bpillar cross structure design and thus make the car somewhat more susceptible to SIDE COLLISIONS (T-bone). It looks like it might stiffen is some ways and weaking the stiffness in others.
-
| couchflambeau | 03-29-2006 05:38 PM |
Excellent thread on a good topic.... glad to see someone doing some research rather than spouting nonsense.... I was seriously considering a Moonroof too.... but really just waiting to hear what you have to say.... ;)
Keep up the good work Chim
Keep up the good work Chim
| LastResort | 03-29-2006 05:46 PM |
I recommend touching this up a bit, then submitting it to Unabomber for his 'approved' list, considering the number of times the subject has come up without near this amount of information. It would be a shame to loose this thread.
| chimchimm5 | 03-29-2006 05:57 PM |
So here's my diagram of what happens.
ORIGINAL: there are beefy crossmembers at the A, B, and C pillar points (to create subie's "3 ring") plus two wimpy cross members (about 1" wide) which look like they are there only to keep the roof stiff against the wind (they are about as beefy as a tin dust pan handle). The Bpillar crossmember is about 7" wide AND more importantly has massive folds or ribs which make it highly resistant to side compression (which braces the side Bpillars from crushing inwards, which is why I say this looks like a side impact thing). I don't see it doing much in a rollover situation; that would be more of the side Bpillar job.
MOONROOF MOD: the wimpy crossmembers are cut and the Bpillar cross member is cut off, but the A and C cross members are untouched. The frame of the moonroof sits in the middle and it both braced (bolted, not welded) at at least four points to the sides rails of the roof and also bolted to he roof sheet metal itself. This functions to totally make up for the wimpy braces and sort of makes up for some of the missing Bpillar crossmember. Notice the solid line at the rear brace point: it is specifically a strip of ribbed metal through the frame of the moonroof cartridge. The biggest difference is that this metal, while tough, is no where near as thick and strong as the original bpillar crossmember, doesn't have as deep folds, AND does not connect at the Bpillar itself, but rather another point along the side rail.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/slhd3a.jpg[/IMG]
What's really interesting to note, is that the MW 328 crossmember is pretty small, the Chevy Tahoe was huge a beefy (as expected) and required TWO of these thick members to be cut. The technicians told me that the Subaru crossmember is as thick as one of the Chevy's.
I can't wait to show you guys pictures.
As for the FACTORY moonroof in the limited package impreza, I don't see how they could do anything different. Like the aftermarket, they can put crossmembers which go over and under the sunroof, but they won't have the room to have any of the rib folds which provide all of the strength.
ORIGINAL: there are beefy crossmembers at the A, B, and C pillar points (to create subie's "3 ring") plus two wimpy cross members (about 1" wide) which look like they are there only to keep the roof stiff against the wind (they are about as beefy as a tin dust pan handle). The Bpillar crossmember is about 7" wide AND more importantly has massive folds or ribs which make it highly resistant to side compression (which braces the side Bpillars from crushing inwards, which is why I say this looks like a side impact thing). I don't see it doing much in a rollover situation; that would be more of the side Bpillar job.
MOONROOF MOD: the wimpy crossmembers are cut and the Bpillar cross member is cut off, but the A and C cross members are untouched. The frame of the moonroof sits in the middle and it both braced (bolted, not welded) at at least four points to the sides rails of the roof and also bolted to he roof sheet metal itself. This functions to totally make up for the wimpy braces and sort of makes up for some of the missing Bpillar crossmember. Notice the solid line at the rear brace point: it is specifically a strip of ribbed metal through the frame of the moonroof cartridge. The biggest difference is that this metal, while tough, is no where near as thick and strong as the original bpillar crossmember, doesn't have as deep folds, AND does not connect at the Bpillar itself, but rather another point along the side rail.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/slhd3a.jpg[/IMG]
What's really interesting to note, is that the MW 328 crossmember is pretty small, the Chevy Tahoe was huge a beefy (as expected) and required TWO of these thick members to be cut. The technicians told me that the Subaru crossmember is as thick as one of the Chevy's.
I can't wait to show you guys pictures.
As for the FACTORY moonroof in the limited package impreza, I don't see how they could do anything different. Like the aftermarket, they can put crossmembers which go over and under the sunroof, but they won't have the room to have any of the rib folds which provide all of the strength.
| chimchimm5 | 03-29-2006 06:09 PM |
My conclusion is the same, adding a moonroof has these effects:
- sideimpact resistance is probably reduced but doesn't make it a death trap
- highperformance cornering rigidity is probably reduced and partially made up for with the replacement bracing
- leaks probably mean that the tubes have become disconnect and just need repair
- rattles and squeaks are largely dependent upon the quality of the installation
- You will love the ventilation and additional light
- you will be at least $1000 poorer
- girls will think your car is sexy
- hardcore car people will think you're a moron
The installers are going to keep my crossmember and let me have it. I'll take pics when I get it.
BTW, if you're concerned about what this does to a track monster, forget it. The roll cage that you should be installing in a track monster will make the original frame moot.
Oh yeah, the cabin light is also relocated several inches rearward to accomodate the opening.
- sideimpact resistance is probably reduced but doesn't make it a death trap
- highperformance cornering rigidity is probably reduced and partially made up for with the replacement bracing
- leaks probably mean that the tubes have become disconnect and just need repair
- rattles and squeaks are largely dependent upon the quality of the installation
- You will love the ventilation and additional light
- you will be at least $1000 poorer
- girls will think your car is sexy
- hardcore car people will think you're a moron
The installers are going to keep my crossmember and let me have it. I'll take pics when I get it.
BTW, if you're concerned about what this does to a track monster, forget it. The roll cage that you should be installing in a track monster will make the original frame moot.
Oh yeah, the cabin light is also relocated several inches rearward to accomodate the opening.
| chimchimm5 | 03-29-2006 07:15 PM |
Oh yeah, and when they tell you that the "addional bracing makes it even stiffer than before", I call bullsh&*. The metal of the moon roof frame does not have the necessary ribbing. I don't see how it could be stiffer.
| Sylon | 03-29-2006 08:14 PM |
Wow dude, thank you for all this info, a lot of people, including myself, seem to be basing their own decisions on a sunroof, just on this thread alone.
This thread should be kept, because you have gone beyond most and did a lot for us, thanks! If I have the money, I am thinking about getting one installed, thanks dude!
This thread should be kept, because you have gone beyond most and did a lot for us, thanks! If I have the money, I am thinking about getting one installed, thanks dude!
| chimchimm5 | 03-29-2006 08:18 PM |
These are pics of the BMW 328 install.
The sunroof cartridge has been installed and I'm pointing to the cut bpillar crossmember. To the sides, you can see the black brackets used to mount the sunroof cartridge to the side rails.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/slmtqa.jpg[/IMG]
This is the bimmer's cross member cut out (right) with two of the Chevy Tahoe's crossmembers (two on left)
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/slmw0h.jpg[/IMG]
This is the side by side comparison of the sunroofs beefiest frame brace (left, black) and the bimmer's (right)
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/slmwed.jpg[/IMG]
And the side angle of the same
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/slmx02.jpg[/IMG]
Notice that the crossmembers of the cars are not flat, they are folded for compression strength along the axis of the crossmember.
The sunroof cartridge has been installed and I'm pointing to the cut bpillar crossmember. To the sides, you can see the black brackets used to mount the sunroof cartridge to the side rails.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/slmtqa.jpg[/IMG]
This is the bimmer's cross member cut out (right) with two of the Chevy Tahoe's crossmembers (two on left)
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/slmw0h.jpg[/IMG]
This is the side by side comparison of the sunroofs beefiest frame brace (left, black) and the bimmer's (right)
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/slmwed.jpg[/IMG]
And the side angle of the same
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/slmx02.jpg[/IMG]
Notice that the crossmembers of the cars are not flat, they are folded for compression strength along the axis of the crossmember.
| chimchimm5 | 03-29-2006 08:23 PM |
Here's a shot of the main glass installed in the bimmer
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/sln0qv.jpg[/IMG]
The clear tube is one of the draim tubes
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/sln2fl.jpg[/IMG]
and the motor
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/sln2o0.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/sln0qv.jpg[/IMG]
The clear tube is one of the draim tubes
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/sln2fl.jpg[/IMG]
and the motor
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/sln2o0.jpg[/IMG]
| chimchimm5 | 03-30-2006 12:11 AM |
BTW, I think it's freaking scary that the Tahoe had two of these things cut out.
| cefoskey | 03-30-2006 07:41 AM |
Like I said before, you are discounting the fact that the roof sheetmetal provides a load path, and if you cut out a large section and essentially double up the perimeter of the hole with the sunroof frame (very similar to a hole doubler in an aircraft airframe) then you have not lost the stiffness over a standard roof (minus x-members). It may be more prone to buckling without the high I values of the extruded cross members, but I think it may not be as big of a difference as you might think.
| chimchimm5 | 03-30-2006 12:20 PM |
[QUOTE=cefoskey]Like I said before, you are discounting the fact that the roof sheetmetal provides a load path, and if you cut out a large section and essentially double up the perimeter of the hole with the sunroof frame (very similar to a hole doubler in an aircraft airframe) then you have not lost the stiffness over a standard roof (minus x-members). It may be more prone to buckling without the high I values of the extruded cross members, but I think it may not be as big of a difference as you might think.[/QUOTE]
This gives me a lot of comfort... especially since you are an aircraft engineer. As an electrical engineer, this structural stuff is out of my expertise, but all engineers have enough foundational knowledge to be dangerous. ;)
What do you think about the side impact issue? (where the crossmember braces the bpillars, preventing them from crushing into the cabin) Or is this a situation just like you said, the roof panel, with the sunroof frame connected to it, going to compensate with the same thing?
So you think it's an issue that the sunroof is bolted to the chassis rail (not worried about the roof) as opposed to being welded like the bpillar crossmember?
This gives me a lot of comfort... especially since you are an aircraft engineer. As an electrical engineer, this structural stuff is out of my expertise, but all engineers have enough foundational knowledge to be dangerous. ;)
What do you think about the side impact issue? (where the crossmember braces the bpillars, preventing them from crushing into the cabin) Or is this a situation just like you said, the roof panel, with the sunroof frame connected to it, going to compensate with the same thing?
So you think it's an issue that the sunroof is bolted to the chassis rail (not worried about the roof) as opposed to being welded like the bpillar crossmember?
| cefoskey | 03-30-2006 02:56 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5]This gives me a lot of comfort... especially since you are an aircraft engineer. As an electrical engineer, this structural stuff is out of my expertise, but all engineers have enough foundational knowledge to be dangerous. ;)
What do you think about the side impact issue? (where the crossmember braces the bpillars, preventing them from crushing into the cabin) Or is this a situation just like you said, the roof panel, with the sunroof frame connected to it, going to compensate with the same thing?
So you think it's an issue that the sunroof is bolted to the chassis rail (not worried about the roof) as opposed to being welded like the bpillar crossmember?[/QUOTE]
"welding" is a bad word in the aircraft business; there is not one part I know of on the entire H-92 I am working on that gets welded. Its all fasteners. You dont have to worry about strength of a fastened joint versus a welded one so long as there is a decent sufficient fastener spacing.
side impact would be a tricky situation. We are talking about a lot of shear forces in the roof with respect to the pillars. But really I cant say much with certainty. It would be a really complicated FEA model to see how the removal of the cross members would affect that situation.
What do you think about the side impact issue? (where the crossmember braces the bpillars, preventing them from crushing into the cabin) Or is this a situation just like you said, the roof panel, with the sunroof frame connected to it, going to compensate with the same thing?
So you think it's an issue that the sunroof is bolted to the chassis rail (not worried about the roof) as opposed to being welded like the bpillar crossmember?[/QUOTE]
"welding" is a bad word in the aircraft business; there is not one part I know of on the entire H-92 I am working on that gets welded. Its all fasteners. You dont have to worry about strength of a fastened joint versus a welded one so long as there is a decent sufficient fastener spacing.
side impact would be a tricky situation. We are talking about a lot of shear forces in the roof with respect to the pillars. But really I cant say much with certainty. It would be a really complicated FEA model to see how the removal of the cross members would affect that situation.
| chimchimm5 | 03-31-2006 08:30 PM |
aarGH!! Now I'm freaking out....
I found this pic of a subie that ROLLED and notice how the crush stopped at the bpillar crossmember. Then again... the Apillars up the frame seem to be a major part of preventing the roof from caving in.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/sor33p.jpg[/IMG]
I found this pic of a subie that ROLLED and notice how the crush stopped at the bpillar crossmember. Then again... the Apillars up the frame seem to be a major part of preventing the roof from caving in.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/sor33p.jpg[/IMG]
| chimchimm5 | 03-31-2006 08:43 PM |
Interesting link about how the sunroof cartridge is a stressed member:
[url]http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=982#post982[/url]
also a quote:
[quote]This seems like it might be different, but over here (Germany) the Mercedes Benz MCC Smart cars have been having a similar problem...
There are dozens if not hundreds of cases already, simply driving down the road, then BOOM, a lap full of glass after the glass sunroof shattered.
Here they're blaming it on chassis flex, using the sunroof as a stressed member, so to speak.
Dunno how you'd find any more information on this (and who wants to if SOA's paying to fix it), but maybe the NHSTA has a file on this...
[/quote]
All this is making me not want a sunroof in any car ever again... even from the factory.
[url]http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=982#post982[/url]
also a quote:
[quote]This seems like it might be different, but over here (Germany) the Mercedes Benz MCC Smart cars have been having a similar problem...
There are dozens if not hundreds of cases already, simply driving down the road, then BOOM, a lap full of glass after the glass sunroof shattered.
Here they're blaming it on chassis flex, using the sunroof as a stressed member, so to speak.
Dunno how you'd find any more information on this (and who wants to if SOA's paying to fix it), but maybe the NHSTA has a file on this...
[/quote]
All this is making me not want a sunroof in any car ever again... even from the factory.
| cefoskey | 03-31-2006 09:31 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5]aarGH!! Now I'm freaking out....
I found this pic of a subie that ROLLED and notice how the crush stopped at the bpillar crossmember. Then again... the Apillars up the frame seem to be a major part of preventing the roof from caving in.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/sor33p.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
also notice how a sunroof frame might have added box stiffness and prevented the buckle up further forward where there is just sheet metal.
I found this pic of a subie that ROLLED and notice how the crush stopped at the bpillar crossmember. Then again... the Apillars up the frame seem to be a major part of preventing the roof from caving in.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/sor33p.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
also notice how a sunroof frame might have added box stiffness and prevented the buckle up further forward where there is just sheet metal.
| KAX | 04-01-2006 12:19 AM |
[QUOTE=cefoskey]also notice how a sunroof frame might have added box stiffness and prevented the buckle up further forward where there is just sheet metal.[/QUOTE]
exactly what i was thinking, granted the glass would most likely shatter, but the frame would still be intact, and most likely be safer.
exactly what i was thinking, granted the glass would most likely shatter, but the frame would still be intact, and most likely be safer.
| Black-Falcon | 04-01-2006 01:15 AM |
If you had the sun roof tinted, you wouldnt have to worry about that much glass would you not? I say stop freaking yourself out. You sound like your planning on rolling it or somthing. As the saying goes "Keep the Shiny side up!"
| Sylon | 04-01-2006 01:21 AM |
[QUOTE=Black-Falcon]If you had the sun roof tinted, you wouldnt have to worry about that much glass would you not? I say stop freaking yourself out. You sound like your planning on rolling it or somthing. As the saying goes "Keep the Shiny side up!"[/QUOTE]
Ok, I see your point, but lets just say, god forbid the sunroof just happens to be cheap and shatters while you are driving. If the window isn't tinted you will just get shattered glass in your lap and hair. But if it is tinted, you will have a large heavy chunk of broken glass coming crashing on your head as a single mass. That would hurt a little more than the little pepple pieces.
I would tint my sunroof anyways, I'm just saying according to the given situation.
Ok, I see your point, but lets just say, god forbid the sunroof just happens to be cheap and shatters while you are driving. If the window isn't tinted you will just get shattered glass in your lap and hair. But if it is tinted, you will have a large heavy chunk of broken glass coming crashing on your head as a single mass. That would hurt a little more than the little pepple pieces.
I would tint my sunroof anyways, I'm just saying according to the given situation.
| chimchimm5 | 04-01-2006 02:25 AM |
[QUOTE=cefoskey]also notice how a sunroof frame might have added box stiffness and prevented the buckle up further forward where there is just sheet metal.[/QUOTE]
I hope that's true.
I think I am psyching myself out. I'm probably worrying much more than I need to be. I guess I'm also going a little crazy from anxiety because I bought the dang car but I won't be getting it until Tuesday! Argh!
BTW, the sunroof didn't seem to be 50 pounds. If I was to guess, I'd say it was more like 35-40 pounds, and that doesn't include the metal that gets chopped away (the cut roof sheet metal, the bpillar crossmember, small cross members), So total weight added is probably closer to 25 lbs, I'm guessing.
I hope that's true.
I think I am psyching myself out. I'm probably worrying much more than I need to be. I guess I'm also going a little crazy from anxiety because I bought the dang car but I won't be getting it until Tuesday! Argh!
BTW, the sunroof didn't seem to be 50 pounds. If I was to guess, I'd say it was more like 35-40 pounds, and that doesn't include the metal that gets chopped away (the cut roof sheet metal, the bpillar crossmember, small cross members), So total weight added is probably closer to 25 lbs, I'm guessing.
| Sylon | 04-01-2006 02:30 AM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5]I hope that's true.
I think I am psyching myself out. I'm probably worrying much more than I need to be. I guess I'm also going a little crazy from anxiety because I bought the dang car but I won't be getting it until Tuesday! Argh![/QUOTE]
I think you are too, if you are that worried about it, you can do 1 of these things:
a) Just don't make any plans to roll your car over anytime soon :D
b) Wear a helmet everytime you get into your car, lol
c) put in a roll cage
or my personal favorite,
d) just don't worry about it and enjoy your new sunroof and stop being paranoid.
Or you can just not get one, its up to you ;)
I think I am psyching myself out. I'm probably worrying much more than I need to be. I guess I'm also going a little crazy from anxiety because I bought the dang car but I won't be getting it until Tuesday! Argh![/QUOTE]
I think you are too, if you are that worried about it, you can do 1 of these things:
a) Just don't make any plans to roll your car over anytime soon :D
b) Wear a helmet everytime you get into your car, lol
c) put in a roll cage
or my personal favorite,
d) just don't worry about it and enjoy your new sunroof and stop being paranoid.
Or you can just not get one, its up to you ;)
| KAX | 04-01-2006 10:34 AM |
yeh, if your extremely worried, get a roll cage. Or no sunroof at all.
| Black-Falcon | 04-01-2006 02:37 PM |
This doesnt look like it landed in his lap, did it? (Granted a small part did, but not the whole thing)
[IMG]http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/3863/srblowov7xy.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/3863/srblowov7xy.jpg[/IMG]
| KAX | 04-01-2006 03:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Black-Falcon]This doesnt look like it landed in his lap, did it? (Granted a small part did, but not the whole thing)
[IMG]http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/3863/srblowov7xy.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
and that was more over the center console, so all he had to do is move his hand, and hes unhurt
[IMG]http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/3863/srblowov7xy.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
and that was more over the center console, so all he had to do is move his hand, and hes unhurt
| chimchimm5 | 04-06-2006 03:41 AM |
The aftermath:
So the deed is done and here are the pics.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/t5gh2b.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/t5gh3s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/t5gh7p.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/t5gh9w.jpg[/IMG]
So far, the sunroof is a very pleasant addition. They saved me the cross members (I'll post pics soon) and to my horror, they had to cut a total of FOUR fricken crossmembers. One was little and flimsy, two were about 3" wide and still rather flimsy (I can twist with my bare hands, but due to the bending they are very resistant to compression) and the one really BEEFY Bpillar crossmember that I've been worried about. It's strong, stiff, and not to be forgotten. It would seem that the frame of the sunroof easily replaces the three other bars, but I still don't see how it replaces (compression strengthwise) the bpillar crossmember. It's the price you pay for having the luxury of a sunroof.
Props to Classic Soft Trim of Hayward for a great job (and props to Gary, the manager who also shot pics of the install on my car for me... 35mm disposable so I'm waiting for them to be developed.)
So the deed is done and here are the pics.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/t5gh2b.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/t5gh3s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/t5gh7p.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/t5gh9w.jpg[/IMG]
So far, the sunroof is a very pleasant addition. They saved me the cross members (I'll post pics soon) and to my horror, they had to cut a total of FOUR fricken crossmembers. One was little and flimsy, two were about 3" wide and still rather flimsy (I can twist with my bare hands, but due to the bending they are very resistant to compression) and the one really BEEFY Bpillar crossmember that I've been worried about. It's strong, stiff, and not to be forgotten. It would seem that the frame of the sunroof easily replaces the three other bars, but I still don't see how it replaces (compression strengthwise) the bpillar crossmember. It's the price you pay for having the luxury of a sunroof.
Props to Classic Soft Trim of Hayward for a great job (and props to Gary, the manager who also shot pics of the install on my car for me... 35mm disposable so I'm waiting for them to be developed.)
| Handsdown | 04-06-2006 03:57 AM |
looks like a great install, but i would never sacrifice the weight(added to the highest point on the car) and the rigidity for the luxury on a car that wasn't strictly for getting me from point a to point b slowly and nicely.
if you're an engineer and you feel safe though, then i'm sure it's fine. enjoy it! glad you did your research, that's what's important.
if you're an engineer and you feel safe though, then i'm sure it's fine. enjoy it! glad you did your research, that's what's important.
| humara | 04-08-2006 02:54 AM |
best moonroof thread ever. great work.
can't wait to see the pics of the install.
worried about those 3 bars
can't wait to see the pics of the install.
worried about those 3 bars
| DrD | 04-08-2006 09:04 AM |
It looks nice, but there's no way I'd give up the crossmember at the b-pillar - too important from a safety point of view.
| chimchimm5 | 04-18-2006 03:21 AM |
Ok, here's the cross bars. The install pics were done on 35mm and I'm lazy right now getting to a scanner. So it's just the cross bars for now.
[IMG]http://i3.tinypic.com/vrtxs1.jpg[/IMG]
So, there are 4 cross members that get cut. :eek: :huh: However, three of the four are pretty flimsy and I can easily bend each one of them with my hands. In fact, I can even bend them along the axis (the direction a side impact would crush and clearly the strongest dimension of the bars considering their shape). So I don't consider them much as far as structural integrity goes. The sunroof frame easily makes up for the smaller three bars. The black dots all around are merely foam dots to keep rattle and noise down.
The bpillar crossmember on the other hand is BEEFY. I can't bend the thing and no way would I be able to crush him along the axis with my hands. It's heavy and thick and there's nothing in the sunroof frame that's compariable in thickness, or magnitude of the folds.
Mut gut says the sunroof frame is much better than just the 3 flimsy bars which are clearly there more to keep the roof in shape. However, I can't see how the sunroof frame could make up for that bpillar bar. In fact, I don't see how ANY factory car with factory sunroof can ever make up for it. So yeah, if your Subaru, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Ford, Chevy, Audi, BMW, whatever mobile came with a factory sunroof, it's probably weaker that the non-sunroof models. Even though the factory adds a thinner cross member. The exceptions are those cars with frames for the sunroofs designed into the chassis, like the Legacy.
[IMG]http://i3.tinypic.com/vrtzi9.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i3.tinypic.com/vrtxs1.jpg[/IMG]
So, there are 4 cross members that get cut. :eek: :huh: However, three of the four are pretty flimsy and I can easily bend each one of them with my hands. In fact, I can even bend them along the axis (the direction a side impact would crush and clearly the strongest dimension of the bars considering their shape). So I don't consider them much as far as structural integrity goes. The sunroof frame easily makes up for the smaller three bars. The black dots all around are merely foam dots to keep rattle and noise down.
The bpillar crossmember on the other hand is BEEFY. I can't bend the thing and no way would I be able to crush him along the axis with my hands. It's heavy and thick and there's nothing in the sunroof frame that's compariable in thickness, or magnitude of the folds.
Mut gut says the sunroof frame is much better than just the 3 flimsy bars which are clearly there more to keep the roof in shape. However, I can't see how the sunroof frame could make up for that bpillar bar. In fact, I don't see how ANY factory car with factory sunroof can ever make up for it. So yeah, if your Subaru, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Ford, Chevy, Audi, BMW, whatever mobile came with a factory sunroof, it's probably weaker that the non-sunroof models. Even though the factory adds a thinner cross member. The exceptions are those cars with frames for the sunroofs designed into the chassis, like the Legacy.
[IMG]http://i3.tinypic.com/vrtzi9.jpg[/IMG]
| cefoskey | 04-18-2006 07:10 AM |
does it comfort you at all that subaru just released the 2007 STI limited with a sunroof?
| gdspc | 04-18-2006 11:48 AM |
not likely as he has a wagon.
| chimchimm5 | 05-02-2006 02:20 PM |
Now that the weather is nicer I've been using the sunroof like crazy. Especially in vent mode. The thing creaks now too in bumps or going up driveways (uneven). There is an overall feeling of a loss of rigitidy as a whole, maybe not a complete loss, but definitely not like before. Through the month of rain there has been no leaks into the cabin but wind noise is definitely up since the window and weather stripping can't be perfectly flush with the roof. Once again, closing the shade cuts most of this noise down. When open, a wind deflector pops up about 3/4 inch to directly airflow OVER the rear sunroof opening, but has the sideeffect of increasing the wind noise very noticeably. Pressing it down with my hand cuts the noise and ups the wind reaching down to the sunroof pocket.
The loss of rigidity really sucks. But oh man the luxury of a sunroof is SO NICE. I love the vent. I love the opening. I love glass to see UP. If I had to do this all over, I STILL don't know which way I'd fall.
So, I wish Subaru would just design a Impreza roof option like the Legacy, which accomodates the sunroof but is strong.
The loss of rigidity really sucks. But oh man the luxury of a sunroof is SO NICE. I love the vent. I love the opening. I love glass to see UP. If I had to do this all over, I STILL don't know which way I'd fall.
So, I wish Subaru would just design a Impreza roof option like the Legacy, which accomodates the sunroof but is strong.
| chimchimm5 | 05-03-2006 03:10 AM |
Finally, I scanned the install pics. Turns out, only about 3 were worth looking at.
This is a shot showing the bare roof with the crossmembers ripped off. You can see the last one nearest the trunk that did not have to be cut.
[IMG]http://i1.tinypic.com/x37lzc.jpg[/IMG]
This one shows the sunroof cartridge installed.
[IMG]http://i3.tinypic.com/x37m6t.jpg[/IMG]
This is a side view of the inside roof. You can see that one each side, the sunroof cartridge has 3 mounting points, for a total of 6. The the frame of the cartridge acts as replacement bracing. The glass of the sunroof slides within this metal cartridge. Yellow circles are the bolted sunroof mounting points, and the orange circle is the stub of the bpillar.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/x37mah.jpg[/IMG]
Once again, I feel that the sunroof cartridge pretty easily replaces 3 of the 4 cut crossmembers (the smaller ones) but I still have a hard time believing it could ever make up for the cut Bpillar crossmember.
This is a shot showing the bare roof with the crossmembers ripped off. You can see the last one nearest the trunk that did not have to be cut.
[IMG]http://i1.tinypic.com/x37lzc.jpg[/IMG]
This one shows the sunroof cartridge installed.
[IMG]http://i3.tinypic.com/x37m6t.jpg[/IMG]
This is a side view of the inside roof. You can see that one each side, the sunroof cartridge has 3 mounting points, for a total of 6. The the frame of the cartridge acts as replacement bracing. The glass of the sunroof slides within this metal cartridge. Yellow circles are the bolted sunroof mounting points, and the orange circle is the stub of the bpillar.
[IMG]http://i2.tinypic.com/x37mah.jpg[/IMG]
Once again, I feel that the sunroof cartridge pretty easily replaces 3 of the 4 cut crossmembers (the smaller ones) but I still have a hard time believing it could ever make up for the cut Bpillar crossmember.
| chimchimm5 | 05-08-2006 01:53 PM |
I have a complained about the sunroof: it creaks when the chassis shifts.
Curbs, bumps, and lateral G's make the sunroof (I think it's the glass, not the frame) that creaks. Annoying and makes it feel like the chassis is "less stiff", whether it is or not.
I have to say though, now that the nice weather is back I use the thing practically every time I get in the car.
Curbs, bumps, and lateral G's make the sunroof (I think it's the glass, not the frame) that creaks. Annoying and makes it feel like the chassis is "less stiff", whether it is or not.
I have to say though, now that the nice weather is back I use the thing practically every time I get in the car.
| tacomaprime | 05-08-2006 02:14 PM |
Wow, what a coincidence. Just this morning I was looking at getting a power sunroof installed in my 05 wagon. This thread has made me say "Heck yeah, do it!"
| humara | 05-31-2006 01:56 AM |
[QUOTE=ADIDAS]Wow, what a coincidence. Just this morning I was looking at getting a power sunroof installed in my 05 wagon. This thread has made me say "Heck yeah, do it!"[/QUOTE]
really?? reading this thread has made me say "hmmm, i'm still not sure"
really?? reading this thread has made me say "hmmm, i'm still not sure"
| NewShockerGuy | 05-31-2006 04:09 AM |
Nice write up!
I'm going with the Spec C roof vent for my sti... :-)
As much as I'd love a moon roof.. I can't justify spending $1000 for one, when I can get the spec c roof vent and install it myself one afternoon...
-Nigel
I'm going with the Spec C roof vent for my sti... :-)
As much as I'd love a moon roof.. I can't justify spending $1000 for one, when I can get the spec c roof vent and install it myself one afternoon...
-Nigel
| chimchimm5 | 01-28-2008 04:41 PM |
I guess I should update.
Now that I track/rallyx/autox the car, I [U][B]regret ever putting the sunroof in.
[/B][/U]
The enormous ~60lbs weight ballast stuck at the highest point in the car is contributing to the effing up of the weight transfer of my car, so much so that I see no point in further handling modifications to my car, as I'll be getting into a lot of NVH just to make up for the stupid sunroof.
I current have:
- Whiteline 22mm front adj sway bar with bushing type WL heavy duty endlinks
- Whiteline 22mm rear adj sway bar with bushing type WL heavy duty endlinks
- Whiteline comfort ALK
- cowl stay / fender braces
- Yamaha s204 front chassis damper
If you think you will be doing any kind of high performance driving and plan on any mods to improve handling performance, then DON'T put a sunroof in. If you want just a daily driver and tote your woman around to the beach, then a sunroof is fine.
Now that I track/rallyx/autox the car, I [U][B]regret ever putting the sunroof in.
[/B][/U]
The enormous ~60lbs weight ballast stuck at the highest point in the car is contributing to the effing up of the weight transfer of my car, so much so that I see no point in further handling modifications to my car, as I'll be getting into a lot of NVH just to make up for the stupid sunroof.
I current have:
- Whiteline 22mm front adj sway bar with bushing type WL heavy duty endlinks
- Whiteline 22mm rear adj sway bar with bushing type WL heavy duty endlinks
- Whiteline comfort ALK
- cowl stay / fender braces
- Yamaha s204 front chassis damper
If you think you will be doing any kind of high performance driving and plan on any mods to improve handling performance, then DON'T put a sunroof in. If you want just a daily driver and tote your woman around to the beach, then a sunroof is fine.
| byah | 05-26-2008 07:07 PM |
Thanks for the update chimm. This thread has been immensely helpful to me in deciding whether or not to pursue having a moonroof put in. Obviously it is a no-go if you want any kind of high-performance.
Cheers.
Cheers.
| trudga | 03-30-2014 09:28 AM |
helpful post, looking for a local installer
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This post was old, but relevant. I am buying a 2009 Impreza Sport. I would love any input for finding a quality sunroof installer in the Lowell, MA area ...specifically Littleton. Thanks!
| chimchimm5 | 03-30-2014 10:28 AM |
[quote="trudga;41703069"]This post was old, but relevant. I am buying a 2009 Impreza Sport. I would love any input for finding a quality sunroof installer in the Lowell, MA area ...specifically Littleton. Thanks![/quote]
I highly recommend that you require them to NOT CUT THE BPILLAR CROSSMEMBER. You are compromising crash safety and chassis rigidity.
They have sunroof that are smaller and fit between the a and b pillar crossmembers. They will be the glass that retracts up and back type.
I highly recommend that you require them to NOT CUT THE BPILLAR CROSSMEMBER. You are compromising crash safety and chassis rigidity.
They have sunroof that are smaller and fit between the a and b pillar crossmembers. They will be the glass that retracts up and back type.
| chimchimm5 | 08-25-2015 05:50 PM |
For posterity, I want to do a final update to this thread. Last year, my 06 WRX was crushed by a ****ing idiot in a big rig dump truck.
The aftermath:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/TwjowyN.jpg[/img]
The sunroof did not shatter, and there was no intrusion into the cabin due to the frame being crushed in this manner. Granted that this type of crash is not the crash that was the original concern with this type of modification (a side impact would be more interesting) but this is the crash that happened.
I now have a 2011 WRX and I will NEVER put an aftermarket sunroof in..... and there have been many warm sunny California days where I missed being able to pop the top open.
The aftermath:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/TwjowyN.jpg[/img]
The sunroof did not shatter, and there was no intrusion into the cabin due to the frame being crushed in this manner. Granted that this type of crash is not the crash that was the original concern with this type of modification (a side impact would be more interesting) but this is the crash that happened.
I now have a 2011 WRX and I will NEVER put an aftermarket sunroof in..... and there have been many warm sunny California days where I missed being able to pop the top open.
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