| GarySheehan | 07-17-2003 02:31 AM |
Honda...the unfair advantage
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Here is an example of the disparity between the top Hondas and our Subaru WRX. Be careful, it's a 9 meg file...
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/2003%20California%20Speedway.wmv[/url]
So, not only does this race winning Honda have that much of an acceleration advantage over our Subaru WRX, according to the rules it's also 1000 POUNDS LIGHTER than our car and runs on the same width tires as us. But I'm still expected to out accelerate and outcorner this Honda.
Yeah, our championship hopes are looking good...
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/2003%20California%20Speedway.wmv[/url]
So, not only does this race winning Honda have that much of an acceleration advantage over our Subaru WRX, according to the rules it's also 1000 POUNDS LIGHTER than our car and runs on the same width tires as us. But I'm still expected to out accelerate and outcorner this Honda.
Yeah, our championship hopes are looking good...
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| mlambert | 07-17-2003 04:01 AM |
Hey Gary!
I was at cali speedway with my friend Mitch on sunday. Talked with Trey and Joel quite a bit but didnt get the chance to speak with you ( i was standing by your car for a few hours, big guy with white shirt).
Let that guy with the accord swap cars with you and see whos the better driver :D
Hopefully I'll get a chance to shake hands with you at the phoenix race. The car is exceptional by the way, like your choice of wheels for this past race!
I was at cali speedway with my friend Mitch on sunday. Talked with Trey and Joel quite a bit but didnt get the chance to speak with you ( i was standing by your car for a few hours, big guy with white shirt).
Let that guy with the accord swap cars with you and see whos the better driver :D
Hopefully I'll get a chance to shake hands with you at the phoenix race. The car is exceptional by the way, like your choice of wheels for this past race!
| Adrian128 | 07-17-2003 04:27 AM |
Rules and regulations for the sake of parity suck don't they? Maybe you can have a discussion with Boaty regarding our rules here in Oz. :)
| Kostamojen | 07-17-2003 04:52 AM |
What would the weight restrictions be on an RS in USTCC?
| ellisnc | 07-17-2003 06:17 AM |
you need V-tach :lol:
| KC | 07-17-2003 08:10 AM |
All's fair in love and war, huh? NOT! :D
I know exactly where you're coming from Gary, we're facing (almost) the same thing in the ST class for Solo-II. It was deemed a semi threat and a rule has been put out for member comment to ban drivetrain swaps so you cannot put an SI engine in a very light early 90 DX hatchback. (Which happened this year because, in part, some of our rules were based off another class, and they made a switch, not realizing what would happen to our class). So they're closing the loophole in our rules for next year.
Good luck! The car is looking good tho!
--kC
I know exactly where you're coming from Gary, we're facing (almost) the same thing in the ST class for Solo-II. It was deemed a semi threat and a rule has been put out for member comment to ban drivetrain swaps so you cannot put an SI engine in a very light early 90 DX hatchback. (Which happened this year because, in part, some of our rules were based off another class, and they made a switch, not realizing what would happen to our class). So they're closing the loophole in our rules for next year.
Good luck! The car is looking good tho!
--kC
| elgorey | 07-17-2003 08:18 AM |
[b]1000[/b] pounds...... :huh: :eek:
holy moses....
thats got to be frustrating for you. How much weight do you have bolted to the floor?
holy moses....
thats got to be frustrating for you. How much weight do you have bolted to the floor?
| TimStevens | 07-17-2003 08:30 AM |
Have you tried dieting? ;)
Keep up the good fight...
Keep up the good fight...
| Patrick L | 07-17-2003 09:29 AM |
How you know what the SoloII STS have to contend with.
| Chromer | 07-17-2003 09:45 AM |
Gary, do you get to remove some of the "reward weight" you earned at Portland, or are you stuck with it for the rest of the season no matter how you finish?
| fengshui-fu | 07-17-2003 10:35 AM |
Talk about seriously unfair. I could see why you threw up your hands after the honda shot past on the strait. Hopefully the reward weight hurts the Hondas more than your car. I can only imagine how unfair it would be if a Kia or Suzuki were to enter. :D
chris
chris
| zoomfactor | 07-17-2003 10:49 AM |
Gary,
Thanks for the video as always!
Maybe you need to employ some of KC's "Pray for Rain" stickers and then get someone to seed the clouds:D
What about a "love tap":devil:
Thanks for the video as always!
Maybe you need to employ some of KC's "Pray for Rain" stickers and then get someone to seed the clouds:D
What about a "love tap":devil:
| ChrisW | 07-17-2003 11:05 AM |
Great Video Gary!!!
The quality of the vid is excellent. Too bad about hondas... That is a huge disparity in performance.:(
The quality of the vid is excellent. Too bad about hondas... That is a huge disparity in performance.:(
| solo-x | 07-17-2003 12:25 PM |
racing organizations have been scared of turbo+awd for years. kinda sad. i'm all for good racing, but sometimes they just get it wrong.
nate-who's 2300lb civic is an ITS car. a 2500lb porsche 911 is too. :furious:
nate-who's 2300lb civic is an ITS car. a 2500lb porsche 911 is too. :furious:
| thechickencow | 07-17-2003 12:27 PM |
I thought you said retard weight for a sec. Bwahahaha.
tcc
tcc
| johnfelstead | 07-17-2003 12:59 PM |
Hey Gary, i am going to be a bit controversial compared to the rest, hope you dont mind. :)
Before though, i would like to compliment you on your driving, you look very relaxed and are not gripping the wheel like a maniac, so its obvious you know what you are doing. It's also great to see your reaction being passed, made me chuckle.
It's imposible to make a judgement about the performance of the respective cars based on that short clip. As you know most passing moves are made because you get a better exit from the previous corner and carry more speed through it and onto the straight, power to weight is just a small part of the equation.
To me you got that corner slightly wrong and you were not on full throttle soon enough because you went in too deep and were compromised as a result. I may be wrong, but having watched the footage about 20 times i think you didnt quite get that one right. Thats no biggy, thats racing.
Now what i would be looking at based on that footage (and its so little it could just be a one off so what i am saying could be nonsense overall) is the reason why you were not on full throttle from the apex and had to wait slightly longer than ideal. Was this due to the setup not being quite right in some way or is it down to driving style on that particular type of corner or was it just due to a one off mistake. Either way, if you are stuck with a power/weight disadvantage, there isnt so much you can do about that technically, you can however study your tapes and see if by changing the way you aproach certain corners, you dont give the oposition a chance to sligshot out of them and get you due to superior exit speed coupled with better power/weight.
Hopefully you see what i am saying and think of it as a positive contribution.
Before though, i would like to compliment you on your driving, you look very relaxed and are not gripping the wheel like a maniac, so its obvious you know what you are doing. It's also great to see your reaction being passed, made me chuckle.
It's imposible to make a judgement about the performance of the respective cars based on that short clip. As you know most passing moves are made because you get a better exit from the previous corner and carry more speed through it and onto the straight, power to weight is just a small part of the equation.
To me you got that corner slightly wrong and you were not on full throttle soon enough because you went in too deep and were compromised as a result. I may be wrong, but having watched the footage about 20 times i think you didnt quite get that one right. Thats no biggy, thats racing.
Now what i would be looking at based on that footage (and its so little it could just be a one off so what i am saying could be nonsense overall) is the reason why you were not on full throttle from the apex and had to wait slightly longer than ideal. Was this due to the setup not being quite right in some way or is it down to driving style on that particular type of corner or was it just due to a one off mistake. Either way, if you are stuck with a power/weight disadvantage, there isnt so much you can do about that technically, you can however study your tapes and see if by changing the way you aproach certain corners, you dont give the oposition a chance to sligshot out of them and get you due to superior exit speed coupled with better power/weight.
Hopefully you see what i am saying and think of it as a positive contribution.
| ITWRX4ME | 07-17-2003 02:04 PM |
So, John, are you saying that Gary turned in too early before the straight? Perhaps he could have taken a tighter line through the first turn so as to have a wider radius for the second and an ability to get on the throttle earlier?
Edit: No, that's not right. I meant did he take an early apex before the turn onto the straight? And might that have been caused by, as you said, going too deep after the first turn?
Edit: No, that's not right. I meant did he take an early apex before the turn onto the straight? And might that have been caused by, as you said, going too deep after the first turn?
| mlambert | 07-17-2003 02:40 PM |
Even with near perfect driving the honda wouldve finished around 15 seconds ahead. The difference is that huge..
| solaris | 07-17-2003 03:09 PM |
I feel your pain. Hondas have a huge advantage in ITA (club racing) too. They walk away from me in the rx-7 like I'm standing still. Granted, I'm a sucky driver, but still... :mad:
| DILLIGAF Racing | 07-17-2003 04:19 PM |
Pray for all the races to have rain conditions, then show the Honda's whos' boss. Every form of racing has to deal with the stupidity of the Honda rulings. They are super light, and have power. So pretty much they will kick butt. Only class I haven't seen them do awesome in is ITS, but I am sure if you give them enough research time, they will. :furious:
| johnfelstead | 07-17-2003 04:57 PM |
i would like Gary's thoughts on what i mentioned before i say anything more ITWRX4ME, like i said, its imposible to make a judgement on a small clip like that so i can just go off what i think i am seeing in that one corner.
Are there any rules online anywhere that i can read? I dont know enough about the series to think properly about the various car specs etc.
Are there any rules online anywhere that i can read? I dont know enough about the series to think properly about the various car specs etc.
| TyrannoSullyRex | 07-17-2003 05:10 PM |
[URL=http://www.ustcc.com/]USTCC[/URL]
Yep, 900 pounds difference, with probably a 30-50 hp difference at most (comparing to a civic si sedan), running the same tire/rim size and probably similar brakes.
Damn, Gary, how do you win at all??
Yep, 900 pounds difference, with probably a 30-50 hp difference at most (comparing to a civic si sedan), running the same tire/rim size and probably similar brakes.
Damn, Gary, how do you win at all??
| GarySheehan | 07-17-2003 07:33 PM |
Johnfelstead,
There is a lot of truth in my entry onto that straight. I slightly overshot that first right hander, which reduced my radius into the lefthander. That line was not optimal. However, I wish I had a rear camera to show you what you couldn't see. The Honda was right on my ass through those corners and suffered from my errors as well. There was little to no buffer between us. At corner exit, he just popped out from behind me and I couldn't believe how he accelerated past me. Not a slingshot where he got a head of steam up through that corner, but a full on outpower move down the straight.
I'm sorry about the short video clip. It was done for selfish purposes. My driving immediatly before that corner and after it was sloppy, and I didn't want those mistakes to overshadow the power issue. Those errors were much larger, but in unimportant parts of the track compared to the small error where Neil passed me.
Another complaint I have is that with the weight I'm carrying, my car should definitely out-accelerate every other car out there. My car will be slower in the corners due to the weight. The speed difference should average out to produce very simolar lap times. If' I'm slower on the straights and slower on the corners, what chance do I have to win?
Oh, by the way, Neil will get 100lbs of rewards weight for winning. We get another 50lbs of rewards weight. So now the difference in weight will be down to 850lbs.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
There is a lot of truth in my entry onto that straight. I slightly overshot that first right hander, which reduced my radius into the lefthander. That line was not optimal. However, I wish I had a rear camera to show you what you couldn't see. The Honda was right on my ass through those corners and suffered from my errors as well. There was little to no buffer between us. At corner exit, he just popped out from behind me and I couldn't believe how he accelerated past me. Not a slingshot where he got a head of steam up through that corner, but a full on outpower move down the straight.
I'm sorry about the short video clip. It was done for selfish purposes. My driving immediatly before that corner and after it was sloppy, and I didn't want those mistakes to overshadow the power issue. Those errors were much larger, but in unimportant parts of the track compared to the small error where Neil passed me.
Another complaint I have is that with the weight I'm carrying, my car should definitely out-accelerate every other car out there. My car will be slower in the corners due to the weight. The speed difference should average out to produce very simolar lap times. If' I'm slower on the straights and slower on the corners, what chance do I have to win?
Oh, by the way, Neil will get 100lbs of rewards weight for winning. We get another 50lbs of rewards weight. So now the difference in weight will be down to 850lbs.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| AndyRoo | 07-17-2003 08:32 PM |
nice video quality wise, i like the split view.
Anyways, Gary, do you think the race organisers are noticing this sort of thing? What chances are there that they will actually change anything?
Good Luck!
PS - When does the new aero package make its debut?
And tell those fools to bring a round to VIR or Summit Point so i can watch!
Anyways, Gary, do you think the race organisers are noticing this sort of thing? What chances are there that they will actually change anything?
Good Luck!
PS - When does the new aero package make its debut?
And tell those fools to bring a round to VIR or Summit Point so i can watch!
| GarySheehan | 07-17-2003 09:55 PM |
The new aero is on now. Pictures will be available shortly.
Here's a preview...
[url]http://www.racerphoto.com/images/hfest-taste.jpg[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Here's a preview...
[url]http://www.racerphoto.com/images/hfest-taste.jpg[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| TimStevens | 07-17-2003 10:00 PM |
WOW! :eek: How much downforce is the brunette in the chekers good for? ;)
| Ryan24 | 07-17-2003 10:15 PM |
:D
The aero package on the bottom right of the collage looks very aggressive
:lol:
The aero package on the bottom right of the collage looks very aggressive
:lol:
| Uncle Scotty | 07-17-2003 11:58 PM |
...UMM...I think the red flag has been...wiggled!!??!!
| biggreen96 | 07-18-2003 03:22 AM |
i love the new look.
and the ladies:banana:
and the ladies:banana:
| mlambert | 07-18-2003 04:19 AM |
:lol: great picture Gary
It was very hot up there so theres good reason the ladies were wearing what they were
It was very hot up there so theres good reason the ladies were wearing what they were
| ITWRX4ME | 07-18-2003 08:51 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]Johnfelstead,
There is a lot of truth in my entry onto that straight. I slightly overshot that first right hander, which reduced my radius into the lefthander. That line was not optimal. However, I wish I had a rear camera to show you what you couldn't see. The Honda was right on my ass through those corners and suffered from my errors as well. There was little to no buffer between us. At corner exit, he just popped out from behind me and I couldn't believe how he accelerated past me. Not a slingshot where he got a head of steam up through that corner, but a full on outpower move down the straight.
I'm sorry about the short video clip. It was done for selfish purposes. My driving immediatly before that corner and after it was sloppy, and I didn't want those mistakes to overshadow the power issue. Those errors were much larger, but in unimportant parts of the track compared to the small error where Neil passed me.
Another complaint I have is that with the weight I'm carrying, my car should definitely out-accelerate every other car out there. My car will be slower in the corners due to the weight. The speed difference should average out to produce very simolar lap times. If' I'm slower on the straights and slower on the corners, what chance do I have to win?
Oh, by the way, Neil will get 100lbs of rewards weight for winning. We get another 50lbs of rewards weight. So now the difference in weight will be down to 850lbs.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Sounds like USTCC need to revisit the rules. The way he went by you it was as if he'd flipped a nitrous switch. :huh: And that 100 lb 'reward' isn't going to do much either.
BTW, Gary and John, thanks for sharing both your video and your insights. As a novice driver, I'm learning alot from these discussions. I always take away something that I can apply at the next track day or a romp on the dirt roads during my daily commute.
It's also rare to get the insider's view of how the rules affect the racing that we watch.
[B]Johnfelstead,
There is a lot of truth in my entry onto that straight. I slightly overshot that first right hander, which reduced my radius into the lefthander. That line was not optimal. However, I wish I had a rear camera to show you what you couldn't see. The Honda was right on my ass through those corners and suffered from my errors as well. There was little to no buffer between us. At corner exit, he just popped out from behind me and I couldn't believe how he accelerated past me. Not a slingshot where he got a head of steam up through that corner, but a full on outpower move down the straight.
I'm sorry about the short video clip. It was done for selfish purposes. My driving immediatly before that corner and after it was sloppy, and I didn't want those mistakes to overshadow the power issue. Those errors were much larger, but in unimportant parts of the track compared to the small error where Neil passed me.
Another complaint I have is that with the weight I'm carrying, my car should definitely out-accelerate every other car out there. My car will be slower in the corners due to the weight. The speed difference should average out to produce very simolar lap times. If' I'm slower on the straights and slower on the corners, what chance do I have to win?
Oh, by the way, Neil will get 100lbs of rewards weight for winning. We get another 50lbs of rewards weight. So now the difference in weight will be down to 850lbs.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Sounds like USTCC need to revisit the rules. The way he went by you it was as if he'd flipped a nitrous switch. :huh: And that 100 lb 'reward' isn't going to do much either.
BTW, Gary and John, thanks for sharing both your video and your insights. As a novice driver, I'm learning alot from these discussions. I always take away something that I can apply at the next track day or a romp on the dirt roads during my daily commute.
It's also rare to get the insider's view of how the rules affect the racing that we watch.
| jmott | 07-18-2003 09:48 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]The new aero is on now. Pictures will be available shortly.
Here's a preview...
[url]http://www.racerphoto.com/images/hfest-taste.jpg[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
what aero?
I dont see any cars at all!
:D
[B]The new aero is on now. Pictures will be available shortly.
Here's a preview...
[url]http://www.racerphoto.com/images/hfest-taste.jpg[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
what aero?
I dont see any cars at all!
:D
| solo-x | 07-18-2003 10:55 AM |
just curious. what kind of power is the wrx putting out in USTCC trim?? i see they have a restrictor plate _and_ a 50lb penalty for having awd (is that on top of the min. weight? seems redundant).
the civic _might_ have had 185hp at the crank, which if the wrx was at stock power it would still have a 40+ hp advantage and the capability to put the power down. the civic would struggle a little in that regard. the rules do state that they work off a power to weight ratio of 13:1 and it looks like they base that off a 180lb driver weight and the stock rated hp for the motor. the suby should definitely have sufficient power to pull in the straights. the civic will gain maybe 5hp from an exhaust, how much does a wrx gain? i think the civic just got a better drive off the corner. like you said though, we can't see the rear-veiw so it's hard to say for sure.
it's a tough battle the rule makers have to fight. everyone can use the same tire, so the lighter cars will have a tremendous advantage in the corners. tight, handling oriented courses will favour these cars. other cars, like the wrx, pick up a tremendous amount of power with the allowed modifications relative to some other cars. on a course that favours hp, these types of cars should have the advantage. it's a tough balancing act. however, i don't think the honda is an unfair advantage, the rules just favoured that car on that course on that day on that lap.
fwiw, with a proper drive off the north chicane at NHIS my 125hp car was able to hang with m3's going down the front straight. granted a better driver in the m3 would have given it more exit speed onto the straight, the point is that momentum off a turn can make a huge dent in the hp deficit. a much bigger dent then what i was expecting.
nate
the civic _might_ have had 185hp at the crank, which if the wrx was at stock power it would still have a 40+ hp advantage and the capability to put the power down. the civic would struggle a little in that regard. the rules do state that they work off a power to weight ratio of 13:1 and it looks like they base that off a 180lb driver weight and the stock rated hp for the motor. the suby should definitely have sufficient power to pull in the straights. the civic will gain maybe 5hp from an exhaust, how much does a wrx gain? i think the civic just got a better drive off the corner. like you said though, we can't see the rear-veiw so it's hard to say for sure.
it's a tough battle the rule makers have to fight. everyone can use the same tire, so the lighter cars will have a tremendous advantage in the corners. tight, handling oriented courses will favour these cars. other cars, like the wrx, pick up a tremendous amount of power with the allowed modifications relative to some other cars. on a course that favours hp, these types of cars should have the advantage. it's a tough balancing act. however, i don't think the honda is an unfair advantage, the rules just favoured that car on that course on that day on that lap.
fwiw, with a proper drive off the north chicane at NHIS my 125hp car was able to hang with m3's going down the front straight. granted a better driver in the m3 would have given it more exit speed onto the straight, the point is that momentum off a turn can make a huge dent in the hp deficit. a much bigger dent then what i was expecting.
nate
| GarySheehan | 07-18-2003 11:44 AM |
Nate,
Thanks for the Driving 101 lesson.
Hell, go back to the Portland full race video and watch Vanni pull away from me on the front straight. Perfect corner exit from me with AWD and he just walks away. And watch how nicely he enters and exits the corners. What's an apex? O:rolleyes:
If it's a true World Challange motor, be sure it's putting out over 200 hp. Now, restrict the WRX with a restrictor plate and have a 1,000 pound weight penalty.
Also, see all the qualifying times from this year. Believe it or not, I can and do turn very clean laps. When my best is a second off of his best at all three races, something is going on.
Unless you've driven a car in anger that is 1,000 pounds heavier than your opponent on the same width tire, with a worse power to weight ratio, you can't understand my frustration.
The other thing that's really pissing me off is the entire series is convinced that it's all car and no talent. The other drivers that are behind me are wanting additional penalties to slow the WRX down even further. Man, how I'd like to race these guys in one spec miata event!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Thanks for the Driving 101 lesson.
Hell, go back to the Portland full race video and watch Vanni pull away from me on the front straight. Perfect corner exit from me with AWD and he just walks away. And watch how nicely he enters and exits the corners. What's an apex? O:rolleyes:
If it's a true World Challange motor, be sure it's putting out over 200 hp. Now, restrict the WRX with a restrictor plate and have a 1,000 pound weight penalty.
Also, see all the qualifying times from this year. Believe it or not, I can and do turn very clean laps. When my best is a second off of his best at all three races, something is going on.
Unless you've driven a car in anger that is 1,000 pounds heavier than your opponent on the same width tire, with a worse power to weight ratio, you can't understand my frustration.
The other thing that's really pissing me off is the entire series is convinced that it's all car and no talent. The other drivers that are behind me are wanting additional penalties to slow the WRX down even further. Man, how I'd like to race these guys in one spec miata event!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| zzyzx | 07-18-2003 11:59 AM |
[quote]
Thanks for the Driving 101 lesson.
[/quote]
Nats a Honduh guy, never mind him... ;)
[quote]
If it's a true World Challange motor, be sure it's putting out over 200 hp.
[/quote]
This is something I just don't understand. Is he running a WC-spec motor? Is so, how could this be? Wouldn't there be a weight penalty? How does USTCC deal with WC entries?
I just don't get it because WC allows serious engine mods and USTCC doesn't...
- Steve
Thanks for the Driving 101 lesson.
[/quote]
Nats a Honduh guy, never mind him... ;)
[quote]
If it's a true World Challange motor, be sure it's putting out over 200 hp.
[/quote]
This is something I just don't understand. Is he running a WC-spec motor? Is so, how could this be? Wouldn't there be a weight penalty? How does USTCC deal with WC entries?
I just don't get it because WC allows serious engine mods and USTCC doesn't...
- Steve
| GarySheehan | 07-18-2003 12:11 PM |
Steve,
I agree with you, I don't understand.
Being a Honda guy is not a bad thing. Honda makes great cars and they are great race cars as well. Regardless, in order for the series to be fair, with the weight of the WRX it should always have a power advantage down the straights because it's going to be so much slower in the corners. It needs to be set up so the lap times average out to be the same.
Tom Lepper and I are kicking the idea of swapping cars for a few sessions to see what the other guy is driving. I think this is going to happen soon. Should have interesting results.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I agree with you, I don't understand.
Being a Honda guy is not a bad thing. Honda makes great cars and they are great race cars as well. Regardless, in order for the series to be fair, with the weight of the WRX it should always have a power advantage down the straights because it's going to be so much slower in the corners. It needs to be set up so the lap times average out to be the same.
Tom Lepper and I are kicking the idea of swapping cars for a few sessions to see what the other guy is driving. I think this is going to happen soon. Should have interesting results.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| solo-x | 07-18-2003 12:43 PM |
gary,
all i was trying to convey is that _if_ the rules were written right, the civic may have been able to pass you just coming off the corner, but been quickly reeled in by the wrx's power. i'm a sucky writer. sorry. :(
i've never envied the job of the administration that makes rules for any race series. too many variables, too many cars. and why are the civics able to run a motor they were never delivered to the states with? if that car had the original power plant built to spec, then i think the battle would have been much closer. or at least don't put a restrictor plate on the wrx if you're going to let someone put in a motor that is in every way better then the stock plant.
did you see the minimum weight for the evo? you would have to add weight to the car over and above stock just to hit that number! imagine hustling 3600lbs around a track on 235 tires. ick!
what is involved in getting the governing body to review the wrx's min weight and restrictor plate and have something changed? i'd imagine gary's times as compared to others would present a pretty strong argument that at a minimum the restrictor plate should be eliminated.
oh, you never answered my question. how much power does your car put out? or is it top secret? :alien:
nate
all i was trying to convey is that _if_ the rules were written right, the civic may have been able to pass you just coming off the corner, but been quickly reeled in by the wrx's power. i'm a sucky writer. sorry. :(
i've never envied the job of the administration that makes rules for any race series. too many variables, too many cars. and why are the civics able to run a motor they were never delivered to the states with? if that car had the original power plant built to spec, then i think the battle would have been much closer. or at least don't put a restrictor plate on the wrx if you're going to let someone put in a motor that is in every way better then the stock plant.
did you see the minimum weight for the evo? you would have to add weight to the car over and above stock just to hit that number! imagine hustling 3600lbs around a track on 235 tires. ick!
what is involved in getting the governing body to review the wrx's min weight and restrictor plate and have something changed? i'd imagine gary's times as compared to others would present a pretty strong argument that at a minimum the restrictor plate should be eliminated.
oh, you never answered my question. how much power does your car put out? or is it top secret? :alien:
nate
| GarySheehan | 07-18-2003 01:21 PM |
Nate,
I'mm trying to hustle a car that weighs 3405 lbs on 235 tires. The Honda weighs 2400 lbs on the same size tires.
I'm working with the USTCC to change the rules. We'll see what happens.
Horsepower numbers are typically secret. Even if it was 1,000hp right now, it's not enough to compete with the Hondas.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I'mm trying to hustle a car that weighs 3405 lbs on 235 tires. The Honda weighs 2400 lbs on the same size tires.
I'm working with the USTCC to change the rules. We'll see what happens.
Horsepower numbers are typically secret. Even if it was 1,000hp right now, it's not enough to compete with the Hondas.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| FuJi K | 07-18-2003 06:07 PM |
Can we make a 1st generation Impreza 2.5RS RWD and not get the weight penalty? It's also help in straight line speed!:D
| GarySheehan | 07-18-2003 07:23 PM |
Sure! How do we get 240hp out of that motor?
| FuJi K | 07-18-2003 08:04 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]Sure! How do we get 240hp out of that motor? [/B][/QUOTE]
well...I may not be credible because I'm still a youngen but, according to the rules, we can't modify the intnernals. What do most Hondas do? With bolt on's, the RS is already quick especially with the 2.5L. We can prolly extract at least 200hp without internal work. Aluminum(leightweight) driveshaft is legal or so I read in the rules, I may be wrong. You can get away with A/C removed, pulley set,.....adjusted cam timing maybe...equal length headers...
The Stock RS 5spd is pretty short already.
[B]Sure! How do we get 240hp out of that motor? [/B][/QUOTE]
well...I may not be credible because I'm still a youngen but, according to the rules, we can't modify the intnernals. What do most Hondas do? With bolt on's, the RS is already quick especially with the 2.5L. We can prolly extract at least 200hp without internal work. Aluminum(leightweight) driveshaft is legal or so I read in the rules, I may be wrong. You can get away with A/C removed, pulley set,.....adjusted cam timing maybe...equal length headers...
The Stock RS 5spd is pretty short already.
| Splat_One | 07-21-2003 10:28 PM |
are you still using the stock wrx tranny??
~Matt
~Matt
| hotrod | 07-21-2003 11:39 PM |
tire size and weight
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It would be nice if you could get them to index allowed tire size to vehicle weight.
Even if you could only get a single plus size that would be helpful.
<3000 lbs 235 tire size, > 3000 lbs 245 tire size, or something like that.
Or maybe index the allowed front splitter size to car weight instead of a fixed 4 inches infront of the bumper.
Larry
PS just out of curiosity Gary, have you been able to run segment times to see exactly where the honda's are gaining the most time on you ? Depending on the numbers that could be pretty useful info both for car develoment purposes and for lobbying the rules makers.
Even if you could only get a single plus size that would be helpful.
<3000 lbs 235 tire size, > 3000 lbs 245 tire size, or something like that.
Or maybe index the allowed front splitter size to car weight instead of a fixed 4 inches infront of the bumper.
Larry
PS just out of curiosity Gary, have you been able to run segment times to see exactly where the honda's are gaining the most time on you ? Depending on the numbers that could be pretty useful info both for car develoment purposes and for lobbying the rules makers.
| zzyzx | 07-22-2003 01:43 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]Sure! How do we get 240hp out of that motor? [/B][/QUOTE]
Run your car as a 2.5 RS per World Challenge specs. That's 2400 lbs. minimum weight and about 290-300 HP w/WC spec motor mods.
WC works to your competitors advantage, why not you? ;) I'd like to see them complain about turbos, then... :alien:
- Steve
[B]Sure! How do we get 240hp out of that motor? [/B][/QUOTE]
Run your car as a 2.5 RS per World Challenge specs. That's 2400 lbs. minimum weight and about 290-300 HP w/WC spec motor mods.
WC works to your competitors advantage, why not you? ;) I'd like to see them complain about turbos, then... :alien:
- Steve
| GarySheehan | 07-22-2003 11:34 AM |
It appears that the USTCC will be making some changes for the next race.
A big thank you to our sponsors for supporting our petition to the USTCC.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
A big thank you to our sponsors for supporting our petition to the USTCC.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| ITWRX4ME | 07-22-2003 12:14 PM |
Are they rule changes and will USTCC be posting them on the website? Can you discuss them here? Just curious as to how things were resolved.
| Chromer | 07-22-2003 01:15 PM |
Hey, I was just reading the rules. A 93-present Volvo 850/S70/V70 only has to be 180 lbs, and has no penalty weight for AWD. Bet they'd fix THAT in a hurry if someone tried to enter one...
Ditto for a 98-present Saab 9-3...
Ditto for a 98-present Saab 9-3...
| jmott | 07-22-2003 04:15 PM |
how would a bone stock Z06 do against the cars in your racing leauge?
| solo-x | 07-22-2003 04:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chromer [/i]
[B]Hey, I was just reading the rules. A 93-present Volvo 850/S70/V70 only has to be 180 lbs, and has no penalty weight for AWD. Bet they'd fix THAT in a hurry if someone tried to enter one...
Ditto for a 98-present Saab 9-3... [/B][/QUOTE]
you read it wrong. those cars are supposed to carry a minimum of 180lbs worth of groceries, or 2 90lb 18-yr old cheerleaders.... :banana:
nate
[B]Hey, I was just reading the rules. A 93-present Volvo 850/S70/V70 only has to be 180 lbs, and has no penalty weight for AWD. Bet they'd fix THAT in a hurry if someone tried to enter one...
Ditto for a 98-present Saab 9-3... [/B][/QUOTE]
you read it wrong. those cars are supposed to carry a minimum of 180lbs worth of groceries, or 2 90lb 18-yr old cheerleaders.... :banana:
nate
| dwx | 07-22-2003 05:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jmott [/i]
[B]how would a bone stock Z06 do against the cars in your racing leauge? [/B][/QUOTE]
It's a touring car class, so I imagine it would kill them. So your question is kind of like asking how would a Audi R8 do against a bunch of stock Z06s.
[B]how would a bone stock Z06 do against the cars in your racing leauge? [/B][/QUOTE]
It's a touring car class, so I imagine it would kill them. So your question is kind of like asking how would a Audi R8 do against a bunch of stock Z06s.
| jmott | 07-22-2003 09:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dwx [/i]
[B]
It's a touring car class, so I imagine it would kill them. So your question is kind of like asking how would a Audi R8 do against a bunch of stock Z06s. [/B][/QUOTE]
I dunno, their cars are on race rubber, massive aerodynamic aids.
I know sheenans car pulls way more Gs than a stock Z06
the z06 of course has way more power.
[B]
It's a touring car class, so I imagine it would kill them. So your question is kind of like asking how would a Audi R8 do against a bunch of stock Z06s. [/B][/QUOTE]
I dunno, their cars are on race rubber, massive aerodynamic aids.
I know sheenans car pulls way more Gs than a stock Z06
the z06 of course has way more power.
| zzyzx | 08-10-2003 01:01 AM |
If anybody was curious, I believe these are the rules changes that Gary was referring to:
[b]
TECHNICAL BULLETIN
Mid Season Changes Effective 8/1/03:
The following technical changes are effective 8/1/03 to the USTCC rules.
1. Subaru WRX minimum weight reduced by 120lbs.
2. Honda B16A powered cars must run 58mm restrictor plate.
[/b]
Taken from the [url]www.ustcc.com[/url] website.
- Steve
[b]
TECHNICAL BULLETIN
Mid Season Changes Effective 8/1/03:
The following technical changes are effective 8/1/03 to the USTCC rules.
1. Subaru WRX minimum weight reduced by 120lbs.
2. Honda B16A powered cars must run 58mm restrictor plate.
[/b]
Taken from the [url]www.ustcc.com[/url] website.
- Steve
| ITWRX4ME | 08-10-2003 07:44 AM |
It'll be interesting to see if a 58mm restrictor will make up for a now 700+ lb deficit in weight.
| TampaWRX | 08-10-2003 01:12 PM |
[quote]Here's a preview...[/quote]
Is there a car somewhere in that picture? :confused:
:devil:
It seems that AWD cars are the bane of every racing series outside of WRC. If the Honda really was able to simply pop and power by with that much ease, you have every reason to be worried. It almost looks as if you lifted or tapped brakes for some reason...that sort of disparity would be very discouraging.
The only thing you can do is battle on in hopes that the governing body recognizes the deficiency. Becoming the squeaky wheel may get you labelled as a whiner, but offering up the occasional and well placed :furious: might help your cause.
Good luck and keep representing the Scooby nation on the tarmac! :D
I should have read all three pages before posting. ;)
Is there a car somewhere in that picture? :confused:
:devil:
It seems that AWD cars are the bane of every racing series outside of WRC. If the Honda really was able to simply pop and power by with that much ease, you have every reason to be worried. It almost looks as if you lifted or tapped brakes for some reason...that sort of disparity would be very discouraging.
The only thing you can do is battle on in hopes that the governing body recognizes the deficiency. Becoming the squeaky wheel may get you labelled as a whiner, but offering up the occasional and well placed :furious: might help your cause.
Good luck and keep representing the Scooby nation on the tarmac! :D
I should have read all three pages before posting. ;)
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