| Pete Holt | 05-11-2006 02:22 PM |
Is anyone tracking Subaru 4/2 (non-brembo) brakes w/o heat problems?
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I posted earlier about pad choices and opted for the Carbotech XP12's to take care of my pad problem. I am also planning to install some 3" ducting from the fogs to the front brakes to help with cooling. I am running Motul RBF600 fluid, but still concerned about heat issues with the dinky stock 1pc. rotors overheating and cooking the fluid. I know the ducting, fluid, and pads will help.
Is there anyone running the Subaru 4/2 (non brembo) brakes without heat issues like boiling the fluid? I am afraid that the set up I have, even with good pads and fluid, is still going to have issues with the "heatsink" rotors. I would imagine I am probably going to have to bite the bullet and get a real BBK. Someone please tell me I am wrong.
Is there anyone running the Subaru 4/2 (non brembo) brakes without heat issues like boiling the fluid? I am afraid that the set up I have, even with good pads and fluid, is still going to have issues with the "heatsink" rotors. I would imagine I am probably going to have to bite the bullet and get a real BBK. Someone please tell me I am wrong.
| ChrisDP | 05-12-2006 12:16 AM |
I think if you're a good track driver with pads that can deal with the heat, you're going to be okay for a brief while... until you start putting enough heat in to crack rotors. Ducts should help prevent that, but you'll probably start melting balljoint covers, caliper seals etc.
| nater | 05-12-2006 12:25 AM |
It is the wheel bearings that will go first. You can get them fade free with proper pads and fluid.. they will just be wayyy too hot. Go with the Kool Brake Kit from RaceComp, that will help with the heat issues...
| HighLife | 05-12-2006 12:35 AM |
These help:
[url]http://www.dba.com.au/5000series/5000.asp[/url]
After I cracked the one piece rotors I went to these. Its about the best you can do without going to a BBK. I used to constantly be boiling RBF600 fluid and so far after fitting the DBA 2 piece rotors I havent had 'as many' issues with the fluid(depends on the track). Also the AP Racing fluids are supposed to be a lot better than the Motul. A few guys I know have gone from the Motul the AP Racing due to the Motul not standing up to the punishment.
[url]http://www.dba.com.au/5000series/5000.asp[/url]
After I cracked the one piece rotors I went to these. Its about the best you can do without going to a BBK. I used to constantly be boiling RBF600 fluid and so far after fitting the DBA 2 piece rotors I havent had 'as many' issues with the fluid(depends on the track). Also the AP Racing fluids are supposed to be a lot better than the Motul. A few guys I know have gone from the Motul the AP Racing due to the Motul not standing up to the punishment.
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-12-2006 10:28 PM |
I've been running the 4/2 pot setup w/ pretty good luck. Started w/ DS2500's front/rear and have recently gone to DS3000's front/2500's rear.
I'm also running DBA 5000 rotors in the front.
Running Motul RBF w/ no problems- I bleed before and after events. Full flush every spring.
Ducts- I started w/ installing the 02 "brake ducts"- takes a little fabbing on the 04+'s, but should be standard on your 02. Im also using a ducting setup that uses the fog lamp holes (I retrofitted my oe fog surrounds) w/ 2" ducting into the wheel well (aimed in the general direction of the rotors). I then fabbed up some brake deflectors which reside on the front transverse link- setup to direct air to the rear of the rotor. And finally removed the dust shields.
The track I normally run is pretty hard on brakes (a couple 100+ straightaways (one 120+ :))- followed by some rather tight turns) and so far the setup has been working really well.
3000 lb car + 11.5" brakes takes a little effort, but it can be done :)
I'm also running DBA 5000 rotors in the front.
Running Motul RBF w/ no problems- I bleed before and after events. Full flush every spring.
Ducts- I started w/ installing the 02 "brake ducts"- takes a little fabbing on the 04+'s, but should be standard on your 02. Im also using a ducting setup that uses the fog lamp holes (I retrofitted my oe fog surrounds) w/ 2" ducting into the wheel well (aimed in the general direction of the rotors). I then fabbed up some brake deflectors which reside on the front transverse link- setup to direct air to the rear of the rotor. And finally removed the dust shields.
The track I normally run is pretty hard on brakes (a couple 100+ straightaways (one 120+ :))- followed by some rather tight turns) and so far the setup has been working really well.
3000 lb car + 11.5" brakes takes a little effort, but it can be done :)
| Pete Holt | 05-19-2006 02:03 PM |
Thanks for the info. Any pricing on the 5000 series 2pc. DBA rotors? I am putting in 3" ducting from the fogs and bedding in the XP12's next week. I hope that is enough for Autobahn in early June. The closest track to home (RA) has straights where I can get closer to 130 or even 140 if I really push it. I guess only time will tell if these mods will work.
| BlackSnake | 05-19-2006 02:14 PM |
IIRC the Vermont Motorsports Rally car runs the subaru 4/2's
| Pete Holt | 05-19-2006 09:01 PM |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that rally racing would not see quite as high rotor temps due to the softer surface with less grip (ie. stopping power). But I have not seen them run. Do they have tarmac sections where they hit 130-140? If they do and are not having heat issues, do you know anymore about their set-up (pad choice, cooling options)?
| Prometheus_6k_rpm | 05-19-2006 10:32 PM |
[QUOTE=Pete Holt]Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that rally racing would not see quite as high rotor temps due to the softer surface with less grip (ie. stopping power). [/QUOTE]
Have you seen them at night with glowing red rotors? Rally drivers tend to left foot brake a bunch.
[IMG]http://www.rally-america.com/Archives/2005/STPR/day/data/gallery/stpr3/images/65.jpg[/IMG]
Have you seen them at night with glowing red rotors? Rally drivers tend to left foot brake a bunch.
[IMG]http://www.rally-america.com/Archives/2005/STPR/day/data/gallery/stpr3/images/65.jpg[/IMG]
| gc835 | 05-20-2006 09:51 AM |
well the weight difference between a gc8 and an 02 + would play a small roll.
| BlackSnake | 05-20-2006 10:10 AM |
[QUOTE=Pete Holt]Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that rally racing would not see quite as high rotor temps due to the softer surface with less grip (ie. stopping power). But I have not seen them run. Do they have tarmac sections where they hit 130-140? If they do and are not having heat issues, do you know anymore about their set-up (pad choice, cooling options)?[/QUOTE]
WRC can see speeds up to 130, But the amount of HARD brakeing in Rally is alot more then on a track IMO.
I say the 4pots should be good with Cyro Rotors,brakefluid,S.S. Lines, and some good pad's.
If you are trying to keep a 16" wheel. If you are going to be running a 17" Might aswell get a BBK.
Also to keep in mind. Wilwood makes a 4pot kit aswell.
WRC can see speeds up to 130, But the amount of HARD brakeing in Rally is alot more then on a track IMO.
I say the 4pots should be good with Cyro Rotors,brakefluid,S.S. Lines, and some good pad's.
If you are trying to keep a 16" wheel. If you are going to be running a 17" Might aswell get a BBK.
Also to keep in mind. Wilwood makes a 4pot kit aswell.
| Pete Holt | 05-20-2006 01:49 PM |
[QUOTE=BlackSnake]WRC can see speeds up to 130, But the amount of HARD brakeing in Rally is alot more then on a track IMO.
I say the 4pots should be good with Cyro Rotors,brakefluid,S.S. Lines, and some good pad's.
If you are trying to keep a 16" wheel. If you are going to be running a 17" Might aswell get a BBK.
Also to keep in mind. Wilwood makes a 4pot kit aswell.[/QUOTE]
I know what you mean. I am hoping that the diff. pads and cooling ducts will help a lot. I am keeping 17's in all seasons so a BBK is not out of the question, I was just hoping I would not have to pony up the cash for a BBK. Time will tell.
I say the 4pots should be good with Cyro Rotors,brakefluid,S.S. Lines, and some good pad's.
If you are trying to keep a 16" wheel. If you are going to be running a 17" Might aswell get a BBK.
Also to keep in mind. Wilwood makes a 4pot kit aswell.[/QUOTE]
I know what you mean. I am hoping that the diff. pads and cooling ducts will help a lot. I am keeping 17's in all seasons so a BBK is not out of the question, I was just hoping I would not have to pony up the cash for a BBK. Time will tell.
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-21-2006 07:13 PM |
I just got back from a two day event sponsored by PCA- 2.5 mile track w/ one straight at 130-ish mph, two at right at 100 mph. Brakes held up fine-again :)
I think next event I'm going to run 3000's front and rear.
OT- there was a Carreara GT that ran both days - OMG! :eek:
I think next event I'm going to run 3000's front and rear.
OT- there was a Carreara GT that ran both days - OMG! :eek:
| USCTrojan4JC | 05-21-2006 08:22 PM |
That sounds like a very nice track, Mike!
I just went to Buttonwillow Raceway yesterday (post [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13863654&postcount=30]here[/URL]). I have Ferodo DS2500 front brake pads and OEM pads in the rear along with Goodridge stainless steel lines and Motul RBF 600. I also had part of RaceComp Engineerings Kool Brake Kit installed. I only had the alloy ducts installed-never got around to rigging the hoses. It seemed like the brakes were holding up better than when I went back in January.
God bless,
Loren
I just went to Buttonwillow Raceway yesterday (post [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13863654&postcount=30]here[/URL]). I have Ferodo DS2500 front brake pads and OEM pads in the rear along with Goodridge stainless steel lines and Motul RBF 600. I also had part of RaceComp Engineerings Kool Brake Kit installed. I only had the alloy ducts installed-never got around to rigging the hoses. It seemed like the brakes were holding up better than when I went back in January.
God bless,
Loren
| cooleyjb | 05-21-2006 09:46 PM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]
OT- there was a Carrera GT that ran both days - OMG! :eek:[/QUOTE]
This track is heavy on brakes that Mike went to. So his seal of approval on this is a good one.
I have gone through many brakes on that track. The worst was when a set of pads caught on fire.
And out of the box he was 15 seconds faster than my fastest time. 1:33's on a 2.2 mile course.
Glad you enjoyed it Mike.
joe
OT- there was a Carrera GT that ran both days - OMG! :eek:[/QUOTE]
This track is heavy on brakes that Mike went to. So his seal of approval on this is a good one.
I have gone through many brakes on that track. The worst was when a set of pads caught on fire.
And out of the box he was 15 seconds faster than my fastest time. 1:33's on a 2.2 mile course.
Glad you enjoyed it Mike.
joe
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-21-2006 10:01 PM |
Joe- your Dad's car is really, really pulling strong - the new engine seems to be working very well. You'll have to ask him about his master cylinder- we were playing a little/cat mouse, I was going to let him pass on the front straight and then I noticed he wasn't filling my rear mirror anymore- found out why- evidently he was very, very close to me coming down the short straight when his brake foot went to the floor! He had a passenger w/ him- I can guess what his expression was.
| cooleyjb | 05-22-2006 03:53 PM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]Joe- your Dad's car is really, really pulling strong - the new engine seems to be working very well. You'll have to ask him about his master cylinder- we were playing a little/cat mouse, I was going to let him pass on the front straight and then I noticed he wasn't filling my rear mirror anymore- found out why- evidently he was very, very close to me coming down the short straight when his brake foot went to the floor! He had a passenger w/ him- I can guess what his expression was.[/QUOTE]
That's where the brakes went to the floor on he 928 for me. However I had boiled the brake fluid and he pads caught on fire. Strangely enough it was just after it had it's previous new paint job.
As for expression I know it wasn't much of one. The colorful metaphors were probably more amusing.
The only car I've never had problems with brakes at the facility was a race prepped 240Z. All others I've run have had some minor amount of brake fade.
If I get the wagon setup for that I'll definitely look into this for brake upgrade.
That's where the brakes went to the floor on he 928 for me. However I had boiled the brake fluid and he pads caught on fire. Strangely enough it was just after it had it's previous new paint job.
As for expression I know it wasn't much of one. The colorful metaphors were probably more amusing.
The only car I've never had problems with brakes at the facility was a race prepped 240Z. All others I've run have had some minor amount of brake fade.
If I get the wagon setup for that I'll definitely look into this for brake upgrade.
| Pete Holt | 05-22-2006 04:17 PM |
BIGSKY, it sounds like I will have a similar cooling set-up except for the plate on the transverse link. Do you think removing the dust shields will make a big difference in terms of cooling?
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-22-2006 08:45 PM |
That doesn't sound like fun!
Pete- yeah the dust covers off will definitely help- it allows a lot more air to get where it's needed.
I think I might try 3000's in the rear next event (vs 2500's)- that should help the front out a little bit and possible move brake points up a smidge.
I think I'm going play w/ my deflectors as well- might try making it more of a "scoop".
I'm getting pretty good at judging when the pads are done- two sessions and my fronts were gone (this is after a two day event in Sept as well)- not even another lap in them :devil:
[IMG]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j304/BIGSKYWRX/thinDS3000.jpg[/IMG]
Pete- yeah the dust covers off will definitely help- it allows a lot more air to get where it's needed.
I think I might try 3000's in the rear next event (vs 2500's)- that should help the front out a little bit and possible move brake points up a smidge.
I think I'm going play w/ my deflectors as well- might try making it more of a "scoop".
I'm getting pretty good at judging when the pads are done- two sessions and my fronts were gone (this is after a two day event in Sept as well)- not even another lap in them :devil:
[IMG]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j304/BIGSKYWRX/thinDS3000.jpg[/IMG]
| HoRo1 | 05-22-2006 08:57 PM |
Dump the rotors. You can play all you want with pads, fluid etc, but, trust me you need much more massive rotors than you've got. I assume that you have the stock 4-pots? TOO HEAVY - dump them as well.
I've time trialed my 02 with stock rotors and 4 pots and the rotors looked like a spiders web when I'd finished (ambient temp was about 100F that day).
I don't know what tracks you run at, but at high speed circuits (long straights linked by a handfull of not so tight corners) your brakes will be fine. At something slower (shorter straights, tighter corners), where the brakes can never cool properly, you'll always run into problems in a 3000lb+ car unless you have the right rotors, fluids, lines and pads working together.
I've raced the same car with a Stoptech kit and street pads (got away with it at Willow Springs) and race pads (wonderful...so good that I use race pads on the street). I also raced the same setup (street pads) at the very tight Streets of Willow - a horrendous error on my part and I had no brakes for the second half of the race.
I've time trialed my 02 with stock rotors and 4 pots and the rotors looked like a spiders web when I'd finished (ambient temp was about 100F that day).
I don't know what tracks you run at, but at high speed circuits (long straights linked by a handfull of not so tight corners) your brakes will be fine. At something slower (shorter straights, tighter corners), where the brakes can never cool properly, you'll always run into problems in a 3000lb+ car unless you have the right rotors, fluids, lines and pads working together.
I've raced the same car with a Stoptech kit and street pads (got away with it at Willow Springs) and race pads (wonderful...so good that I use race pads on the street). I also raced the same setup (street pads) at the very tight Streets of Willow - a horrendous error on my part and I had no brakes for the second half of the race.
| Pacobeagle | 05-22-2006 09:30 PM |
HoRo--So, what you are saying is that the 4/2 combo is better suited as a street setup than a street/track. If you are going to track then better to get a BBK? I've been looking to get a Stoptech BBK in the front and keep my 2pots for my '02 WRX sedan that I autox reguarly in SM class.
I'm currently running a PowerSlot + BBK(old AEM Kit) using the 13.4" rotors with my 4pots. For the rear I have the OEM 2pots and rotors. For pads I've been using the EBC restuff's. Motul RBF600 for brake fluid. Yesterday's autox, however, had the front rotors turning blue in color. What does this mean? Outside temps had to be over 95 degrees. Do I need to get the EBC yellowstuff to handle the heat generated?
I'm currently running a PowerSlot + BBK(old AEM Kit) using the 13.4" rotors with my 4pots. For the rear I have the OEM 2pots and rotors. For pads I've been using the EBC restuff's. Motul RBF600 for brake fluid. Yesterday's autox, however, had the front rotors turning blue in color. What does this mean? Outside temps had to be over 95 degrees. Do I need to get the EBC yellowstuff to handle the heat generated?
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-22-2006 10:08 PM |
^ I don't think ambient temps will play too large a role in overheating rotors- rotor temps can easily exceed a 1000 degrees at a track day. Blue coloring is nothing to worry about. Yellows wouldn't be the best choice for autox- think cold bite- reds much better suited, track days would be another matter.
Yes bigger brakes can handle the heat better- not exactly press stopping material there.
The question posted by this thread is can the 4/2 pot combo hold up to track days. I think the answer is yes- w/ a well thought out setup.
Will a BBK handle the heat better- most certainly- no one will argue that point.
Yes bigger brakes can handle the heat better- not exactly press stopping material there.
The question posted by this thread is can the 4/2 pot combo hold up to track days. I think the answer is yes- w/ a well thought out setup.
Will a BBK handle the heat better- most certainly- no one will argue that point.
| STI4ME | 05-23-2006 01:48 AM |
HoRo1
Aside from street pads, what other compounds have you run at Streets of Willow and how did they feel?
I'll be running Stoptech Club Race pads at the SoW this Sunday. Just want to get a feel since this will be my first at this track.
[QUOTE=HoRo1]Dump the rotors. You can play all you want with pads, fluid etc, but, trust me you need much more massive rotors than you've got. I assume that you have the stock 4-pots? TOO HEAVY - dump them as well.
I've time trialed my 02 with stock rotors and 4 pots and the rotors looked like a spiders web when I'd finished (ambient temp was about 100F that day).
I don't know what tracks you run at, but at high speed circuits (long straights linked by a handfull of not so tight corners) your brakes will be fine. At something slower (shorter straights, tighter corners), where the brakes can never cool properly, you'll always run into problems in a 3000lb+ car unless you have the right rotors, fluids, lines and pads working together.
I've raced the same car with a Stoptech kit and street pads (got away with it at Willow Springs) and race pads (wonderful...so good that I use race pads on the street). I also raced the same setup (street pads) at the very tight Streets of Willow - a horrendous error on my part and I had no brakes for the second half of the race.[/QUOTE]
Aside from street pads, what other compounds have you run at Streets of Willow and how did they feel?
I'll be running Stoptech Club Race pads at the SoW this Sunday. Just want to get a feel since this will be my first at this track.
[QUOTE=HoRo1]Dump the rotors. You can play all you want with pads, fluid etc, but, trust me you need much more massive rotors than you've got. I assume that you have the stock 4-pots? TOO HEAVY - dump them as well.
I've time trialed my 02 with stock rotors and 4 pots and the rotors looked like a spiders web when I'd finished (ambient temp was about 100F that day).
I don't know what tracks you run at, but at high speed circuits (long straights linked by a handfull of not so tight corners) your brakes will be fine. At something slower (shorter straights, tighter corners), where the brakes can never cool properly, you'll always run into problems in a 3000lb+ car unless you have the right rotors, fluids, lines and pads working together.
I've raced the same car with a Stoptech kit and street pads (got away with it at Willow Springs) and race pads (wonderful...so good that I use race pads on the street). I also raced the same setup (street pads) at the very tight Streets of Willow - a horrendous error on my part and I had no brakes for the second half of the race.[/QUOTE]
| USCTrojan4JC | 05-23-2006 01:57 AM |
[QUOTE=STI4ME]HoRo1
Aside from street pads, what other compounds have you run at Streets of Willow and how did they feel?
I'll be running Stoptech Club Race pads at the SoW this Sunday. Just want to get a feel since this will be my first at this track.[/QUOTE]
I ran the EBC Red Stuff Ceramic front brake pads at The Streets of Willow back in September and they got destroyed! I basically went from full pad to 1 mm or less that day.
Ferodo DS2500 > EBC Red Stuff Ceramic easily IMO...except in the department of brake dust, which doesn't really matter to me since the most important thing is their performance.
God bless,
Loren
Aside from street pads, what other compounds have you run at Streets of Willow and how did they feel?
I'll be running Stoptech Club Race pads at the SoW this Sunday. Just want to get a feel since this will be my first at this track.[/QUOTE]
I ran the EBC Red Stuff Ceramic front brake pads at The Streets of Willow back in September and they got destroyed! I basically went from full pad to 1 mm or less that day.
Ferodo DS2500 > EBC Red Stuff Ceramic easily IMO...except in the department of brake dust, which doesn't really matter to me since the most important thing is their performance.
God bless,
Loren
| TCE | 05-23-2006 09:17 AM |
I threw up a discount post in the Vendor area to get someone running both the new front Wilwood kit as well as my rear kit. Might be worth considering.
| Jack | 05-23-2006 10:51 AM |
Pete,
I am going to say that you may not completely get rid of your problem.
I ran a GC8 with a track weight of 2700 pounds. It had suspension changes and I ran run of the mill Victoracers, Yoko 032's. With the 4 pots front and H6 rear with 3" ducts on the front and Motul, I'd still boil brake fluid at northeast tracks. I was still using subaru rotors and mild brake compounds. I think Carbotech would have been the way to go. Also upgrade to Wilwood exp600 for another 35 degrees of temp. I've since sold the car and gone with a track only CRX, so my brake problems are behind me.
jack
I am going to say that you may not completely get rid of your problem.
I ran a GC8 with a track weight of 2700 pounds. It had suspension changes and I ran run of the mill Victoracers, Yoko 032's. With the 4 pots front and H6 rear with 3" ducts on the front and Motul, I'd still boil brake fluid at northeast tracks. I was still using subaru rotors and mild brake compounds. I think Carbotech would have been the way to go. Also upgrade to Wilwood exp600 for another 35 degrees of temp. I've since sold the car and gone with a track only CRX, so my brake problems are behind me.
jack
| Pacobeagle | 05-23-2006 08:14 PM |
TCE. I'd be up for it, but is my current setup worth the "upgrade"? I know that the weight savings would be great. Remember, I run autox events regularly. Actually, it might become an AUTO-X only car.
Current setup FR:
PowerSlot + rotor kit(13.4")
SUBARU 4-pots
EBC redstuff
Current setup RR:
SUBARU 2-pots
EBC redstuff
Current setup FR:
PowerSlot + rotor kit(13.4")
SUBARU 4-pots
EBC redstuff
Current setup RR:
SUBARU 2-pots
EBC redstuff
| TCE | 05-23-2006 08:40 PM |
I mentioned it as there was comment made about wheel size. If you are running 16s, or those who run rally wheels of 15 or 16", the value is huge. On the other hand, if you run 17 with the parts listed above I'd grant you; it would prove more of a lateral move for braking value than a bargain. I could make reason for it etc. but there's little point. It would not prove to be a good purchase.
Now...go get me a guy with 16s and we'll have him whipping up on you in no time!
Now...go get me a guy with 16s and we'll have him whipping up on you in no time!
| Pete Holt | 05-23-2006 11:32 PM |
Paco, I would not take that set up to HPDE if I were you. I had also considered those rotors for my set-up and was warned heavily that they were not designed for track days since they have a larger diameter, but are not thicker than the stock rotors and thus weaker. They should be fine for autocross though because you do not see very high temps in autocross.
Well, I put the brake ducts in this morning and I think it will work really well...I hope. I did a few things differently than all the other ducting options I have seen. Check it out in the brake section.
Well, I put the brake ducts in this morning and I think it will work really well...I hope. I did a few things differently than all the other ducting options I have seen. Check it out in the brake section.
| Pacobeagle | 05-25-2006 08:32 PM |
please keep us updated with your findings
| racekar | 05-25-2006 09:37 PM |
does running 16 vs 17 wheels make that much of a difference for braking???
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-26-2006 09:48 AM |
[QUOTE=racekar]does running 16 vs 17 wheels make that much of a difference for braking???[/QUOTE]
If the brakes stay the same (obviously 17" wheels open up a few options for brakes unavailable to 16") then there would probably ne a minor difference as your likely to have a heavier setup vs 16" and a little more rotational mass to stop- the difference would neglible- unless it was very heavy wheel/tire combo.
This ofcourse is w/ everything else being the same- tire compound/width/alignment etc.
If the brakes stay the same (obviously 17" wheels open up a few options for brakes unavailable to 16") then there would probably ne a minor difference as your likely to have a heavier setup vs 16" and a little more rotational mass to stop- the difference would neglible- unless it was very heavy wheel/tire combo.
This ofcourse is w/ everything else being the same- tire compound/width/alignment etc.
| Pete Holt | 05-26-2006 12:28 PM |
BIGSKY, we were talking earlier about removing the dust shields and you mentioned that you thought this helped with cooling as well. Do they serve any purpose other than keeping dust from the axle/lower susp? I am just wondering if there is any drawback to removing these or if I should just get rid of them and forget it.
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-27-2006 08:00 PM |
I'm sure they keep some dust/dirt out of that area- I've been running year round w/o them w/ no noticable drawbacks.
Plus you reap the giant reduction of unsprung weight- 8oz/ side w/ hardware :D
Plus you reap the giant reduction of unsprung weight- 8oz/ side w/ hardware :D
| WJM | 05-29-2006 04:41 PM |
It would be safe to say...in order to save wheel bearings...ATLEAST do 2 peice rotors. That will keep a majority of the heat away from the bearing/hub assy.
However, the next time you have the wheel bearings out and in hand...CLEAN ALL THE FACTORY grease from them, and invest in the REALLY nice synthetic grease. I cant remember who makes it...might be DuPont..but a tueb of their synth grease is pretty darned expensive, however, worth its weight in gold VERY low friction, SUPER high heat tolorances. Same stuff used in NASCAR.
Yeah yeah NASCAR...still, some good comes from those rednecks who only turn left 99% of the time.
However, the next time you have the wheel bearings out and in hand...CLEAN ALL THE FACTORY grease from them, and invest in the REALLY nice synthetic grease. I cant remember who makes it...might be DuPont..but a tueb of their synth grease is pretty darned expensive, however, worth its weight in gold VERY low friction, SUPER high heat tolorances. Same stuff used in NASCAR.
Yeah yeah NASCAR...still, some good comes from those rednecks who only turn left 99% of the time.
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-29-2006 10:47 PM |
^ If you come up w/ a brand name let us know. I know Gary S used some pretty "fancy" grease in his bearings when he was doing USTCC
| HighLife | 05-29-2006 11:36 PM |
Neo HP800
| gravel | 05-30-2006 10:13 AM |
Gary Sheehan used DuPont Krytox which is the stuff mentioned here.
I recently bought GPL-215 and 8 oz. cost ~$80. So it is $10/oz. but this works out to maybe $15 per bearing to ensure a good long life. I'd rather spend that than be replacing the bearings all the time.
A decent amount of information on this can be found here:
[url]http://www.tmcindustries.com/krytoxdatasheet.htm[/url]
I recently bought GPL-215 and 8 oz. cost ~$80. So it is $10/oz. but this works out to maybe $15 per bearing to ensure a good long life. I'd rather spend that than be replacing the bearings all the time.
A decent amount of information on this can be found here:
[url]http://www.tmcindustries.com/krytoxdatasheet.htm[/url]
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-30-2006 10:35 AM |
is the 215 the same as the XHT? They only have a couple of dozen applications to choose from :)
| gravel | 05-30-2006 02:58 PM |
I had a very long conversation with one of the reps at TMC. He indicated that for an automotive application the GPL was the grease of choice. It is specifically formulated for use in bearings. The XHT isn't designed to handle the pressures associated with a wheel bearing application. All of these greases start out as base oils, with viscosity depending on the length of the polymer chain used, and then things like moly disulfide (I believe I remember seeing this on the MSDS) are added and thickeners are added to get a grease with the desired properties. The GPL extreme pressure grease is what was recommended. The only significant difference between the -215, -216, and -217 are related to acceptable operating range in terms of temperature.
I don't race much beyond autox with some heavy LFB and haven't tracked my car yet. I was mostly concerned getting the right stuff. They had the -215 in stock and I would have had to wait awhile to get the -217. I don't think I'll be getting my bearings up over 400 F anyway.
I hope this helps. Give them a call, it's toll free. All it will cost you is some time.
I don't race much beyond autox with some heavy LFB and haven't tracked my car yet. I was mostly concerned getting the right stuff. They had the -215 in stock and I would have had to wait awhile to get the -217. I don't think I'll be getting my bearings up over 400 F anyway.
I hope this helps. Give them a call, it's toll free. All it will cost you is some time.
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-30-2006 08:26 PM |
^ thanks- very informative :). The 217 sounds like it might be the ticket for me- I'll check into it.
| littlewhitewagon | 05-31-2006 10:22 AM |
This is a bit off topic, but i will ask because i have never tracked my new 06 wagon yet. I have done some time in my Civic and other cars, but never anything with a warranty. The warranty states that it covers most everything including the brake pads to 36k miles. How hot is "hot enough" to damage the wheel bearings? I have never had this problem with my Hondas that I know of, but most of my track time is limited to autox and Streets of Willow. Will the dealer be able to tell that the wheel bearing damage is from hot brakes? And what do heat damaged wheel bearings sound or feel like?
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-31-2006 12:02 PM |
Wheel bearings do go- even on a street driven car. I've got over a dozen track days on mine w/ no problems yet (knock on aluminum hood :)). I've heard of others having trouble within a couple of events. Too many variable to say w/ any certainity. Obviously ducting will help, two piece rotors will help-anything to help keep temps down.
I don't think they will be able to tell w/ certainity the reason of the failure, they might highly suspect though. If your car is pretty much bare bone stock, I don't think they'll say too much- if it's not then the question would certainly come up. Obviously you understand that bearings/pads/etc going on a track day would not be covered.
When my go I'll probably do them myself, or if I don't I'll be bringing my own bearings in packed w/ a good high temp grease. Subaru does have a pretty nice setup that they can do the bearings while the car is on all fours- no need to take the knuckle off (thus less labor and no alignment).
Wheel bearings usually starting making noise when turning- can be clicking/ticking (this can also be CV joints though) or sometimes a "groaning". It's good to check them from time to time when you have the car on jack stands. Grab firmly on the tire at 3 and 9 o'clock and try and twist- should be little to no play, do it again at 12 and 6.
I don't think they will be able to tell w/ certainity the reason of the failure, they might highly suspect though. If your car is pretty much bare bone stock, I don't think they'll say too much- if it's not then the question would certainly come up. Obviously you understand that bearings/pads/etc going on a track day would not be covered.
When my go I'll probably do them myself, or if I don't I'll be bringing my own bearings in packed w/ a good high temp grease. Subaru does have a pretty nice setup that they can do the bearings while the car is on all fours- no need to take the knuckle off (thus less labor and no alignment).
Wheel bearings usually starting making noise when turning- can be clicking/ticking (this can also be CV joints though) or sometimes a "groaning". It's good to check them from time to time when you have the car on jack stands. Grab firmly on the tire at 3 and 9 o'clock and try and twist- should be little to no play, do it again at 12 and 6.
| racekar | 06-01-2006 12:53 AM |
when you guys talk about removing the dust shield is that the same as the heat shield on the brake caliper area? I know some people with hondas when they did that it started to cause premature wear of cv boot and bushing etc.. is that a concern?
| racekar | 06-01-2006 01:02 AM |
also would i see better braking results from just getting xp8 or xp10 front vs
hp plus front and rear?
for hpde track driving
hp plus front and rear?
for hpde track driving
| Pete Holt | 06-01-2006 12:03 PM |
[QUOTE=racekar]also would i see better braking results from just getting xp8 or xp10 front vs
hp plus front and rear?
for hpde track driving[/QUOTE]
Definitely. Although I am not sure they still make either of those two compounds. I was running Hawk HP+ front and rear and the fronts are definitely not up to the task on tracks with long straights followed by 90 degree turns. I stepped up to the XP 12's which are supposed to be good up to 2000+ degrees. I will let you know how they work next week after I take it to Autobahn next Monday.
hp plus front and rear?
for hpde track driving[/QUOTE]
Definitely. Although I am not sure they still make either of those two compounds. I was running Hawk HP+ front and rear and the fronts are definitely not up to the task on tracks with long straights followed by 90 degree turns. I stepped up to the XP 12's which are supposed to be good up to 2000+ degrees. I will let you know how they work next week after I take it to Autobahn next Monday.
| juste_frank | 06-06-2006 08:20 PM |
I'm currently using DBA 5000 rotors (front) with porterfield R4 (race) pads, SS brakes lines, motul fluid with stock 4 pots front/ 2 pots rear.
I was on a fast track (over 140 km/h) with a lot of 90 degree turns. I experienced brake fading after only 1 lap and almost hit a wall after 2 laps. :(
The pads were smoking like hell after the second lap. I'm not very happy with those pads so will probably go with the ferodo 3000. I'll keep you informed of the results.
I was on a fast track (over 140 km/h) with a lot of 90 degree turns. I experienced brake fading after only 1 lap and almost hit a wall after 2 laps. :(
The pads were smoking like hell after the second lap. I'm not very happy with those pads so will probably go with the ferodo 3000. I'll keep you informed of the results.
| BIGSKYWRX | 06-06-2006 11:48 PM |
Well that's not very damn encouraging- especially out of the race compound. I see they have a endurance compound, but now I'm reluctant to try it.
Look like the prices on the Porterfields are pretty reasonable- not much good if they won't stop you though :(
Look like the prices on the Porterfields are pretty reasonable- not much good if they won't stop you though :(
| GeoffM | 06-07-2006 04:14 AM |
yes, i've done it for 3+ years now.. have the old "sweatband" trick around the brake fluid resivoir to prevent it from boiling over everywhere. ducts from fogs and have ducts for underneath the front spoiler that look like the intake duct under the wood, long slat type. Hawk HPS pads, stoptech slotted rotors. (that being said DBA rotors are definately a better investment but alot more expensive) i have a set of cracked stoptech's right now....
--Geoff
--Geoff
| MRF582 | 06-07-2006 09:16 AM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]Wheel bearings usually starting making noise when turning- can be clicking/ticking (this can also be CV joints though) or sometimes a "groaning". It's good to check them from time to time when you have the car on jack stands. Grab firmly on the tire at 3 and 9 o'clock and try and twist- should be little to no play, do it again at 12 and 6.[/QUOTE]
yeah...except for one small FACT. If you have the axle nut on, that test might not prove anything. If it fails the test with the axle nut on, your wheel bearings might be damaged to the point where the hub needs to be replaced.
yeah...except for one small FACT. If you have the axle nut on, that test might not prove anything. If it fails the test with the axle nut on, your wheel bearings might be damaged to the point where the hub needs to be replaced.
| BIGSKYWRX | 06-07-2006 10:15 AM |
There is no perfect "test" that I'm aware of to catch one very early. One other indicator may be increase in knock back or experiencing knock back where you never did before.
Geoff what are you wrapping your MC with- I've never had fluid boiling problem, but having something to prevent from overboiling sounds like a good idea.
Also I just fitted a prototype Ti shims for the FHI four pots- they should be available in a couple of weeks- more details here:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=721610[/url]
Geoff what are you wrapping your MC with- I've never had fluid boiling problem, but having something to prevent from overboiling sounds like a good idea.
Also I just fitted a prototype Ti shims for the FHI four pots- they should be available in a couple of weeks- more details here:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=721610[/url]
| Pete Holt | 06-07-2006 03:28 PM |
Well, with the air ducts and the XP12 pads the brakes held up very well at Autobahn. Coming into 90 degree turns at 110mph and hitting the brakes late, they never faded. It definitely wore the pads down, but the Suby stopped just fine. I can tell that the rotors were getting pretty hot, but no cracks yet. As much time as I have spent trying to make these brakes work at the track, unfortunately a BBK is still a better solution.
| SilverJA | 08-23-2006 07:00 PM |
[QUOTE=Pete Holt]It definitely wore the pads down.[/QUOTE]
Was that after just one session? How bad did they wear down?
Thanks
Was that after just one session? How bad did they wear down?
Thanks
| Pete Holt | 08-24-2006 12:58 PM |
[QUOTE=SilverJA]Was that after just one session? How bad did they wear down?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
No, after many sessions. Probably about 1hr. and 40min. total driving time. The pads wore down about 1/3 of their initial thickness. Not bad considering I was consistently deep into the brakes in a few turns.
On a side note, I have since re-routed the 3" air ducts so they blow directly into the vents in the middle of the rotor. Hopefully, that will make a difference in heat at the next track day.
Thanks[/QUOTE]
No, after many sessions. Probably about 1hr. and 40min. total driving time. The pads wore down about 1/3 of their initial thickness. Not bad considering I was consistently deep into the brakes in a few turns.
On a side note, I have since re-routed the 3" air ducts so they blow directly into the vents in the middle of the rotor. Hopefully, that will make a difference in heat at the next track day.
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