| crystalhelix | 11-18-2006 04:54 PM |
Legality of STi Limited Trunk in BSP..
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I have read the new STi limited will be on the same line as the normal STi in BSP this coming year in SCCA Solo Rules. If so, through UD/BD, we can run the limited trunk. Are my assumptions correct?:cool:
...as a caveat...if the limited lip does not contain a 3rd brake light (can't remember) ...can we run a wingless trunk as well...:p ...I've wanted to go wingless since I bought the car but never had the chance..I assume you may have to add the 3rd light on the rear deck.
Thanks everyone,
Justin
EDIT FOR CN: Can be swapped through UD/BD. It will be on same line as standard STi (autoWRXer), no 3rd brakelight likely needed in SP, can be exact factory replica..only comes in urban grey, and white, the swap saves about 15lbs.
...as a caveat...if the limited lip does not contain a 3rd brake light (can't remember) ...can we run a wingless trunk as well...:p ...I've wanted to go wingless since I bought the car but never had the chance..I assume you may have to add the 3rd light on the rear deck.
Thanks everyone,
Justin
EDIT FOR CN: Can be swapped through UD/BD. It will be on same line as standard STi (autoWRXer), no 3rd brakelight likely needed in SP, can be exact factory replica..only comes in urban grey, and white, the swap saves about 15lbs.
| sciolist | 11-18-2006 05:09 PM |
Yes. Please pick one up for me while you're at it. :)
| sciolist | 11-18-2006 05:13 PM |
My take is that UD/BD lets us swap to the LI spoiler, but that does not mean we can go completely without, since no BSP-classed model in the line comes that way.
The interior brake light is plug-and-play. I've had that part done since '03, but this is the first year we've had a legal approach to the wing itself in SP. :banana:
The interior brake light is plug-and-play. I've had that part done since '03, but this is the first year we've had a legal approach to the wing itself in SP. :banana:
| Pacobeagle | 11-18-2006 05:16 PM |
Yes, but isn't the "Sti" technically a trim level? The car is still an impreza, and you can get one wingless. SO, you should be able to run wingless.
my .02
my .02
| Nis01 | 11-18-2006 05:30 PM |
I would imagine you can run wingless with the addition of the 3rd brake light in the rear window. I already went wingless but I'm not competitive in my auto-x class anyways. Would be nice to be legal again though. :)
| sciolist | 11-18-2006 05:36 PM |
I asked Maestro Gill that question last year, and he said no. My understanding is that "trim level" is not the issue; class is.
Let's say hypothetically that the WRX had a trunk delete option. The base WRX runs ESP, not BSP, so that option would not be applicable to BSP cars. Conversely, because the LI is classed in BSP, its spoiler is a valid UD for the STi in BSP.
[QUOTE=Pacobeagle1;16038513]Yes, but isn't the "Sti" technically a trim level? The car is still an impreza, and you can get one wingless. SO, you should be able to run wingless.
my .02[/QUOTE]
Let's say hypothetically that the WRX had a trunk delete option. The base WRX runs ESP, not BSP, so that option would not be applicable to BSP cars. Conversely, because the LI is classed in BSP, its spoiler is a valid UD for the STi in BSP.
[QUOTE=Pacobeagle1;16038513]Yes, but isn't the "Sti" technically a trim level? The car is still an impreza, and you can get one wingless. SO, you should be able to run wingless.
my .02[/QUOTE]
| WJM | 11-18-2006 05:50 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist;16038642]I asked Maestro Gill that question last year, and he said no. My understanding is that "trim level" is not the issue; class is.
Let's say hypothetically that the WRX had a trunk delete option. The base WRX runs ESP, not BSP, so that option would not be applicable to BSP cars. Conversely, because the LI is classed in BSP, its spoiler is a valid UD for the STi in BSP.[/QUOTE]
EXACTLY.....
Let's say hypothetically that the WRX had a trunk delete option. The base WRX runs ESP, not BSP, so that option would not be applicable to BSP cars. Conversely, because the LI is classed in BSP, its spoiler is a valid UD for the STi in BSP.[/QUOTE]
EXACTLY.....
| adhowe70 | 11-18-2006 07:10 PM |
Its not just class, either. In SP, the two cars swapping parts via UD/BD must be listed on the SAME LINE in the rulebook. This means that if the ESP listing said:
Impreza WRX (2002-2004)
Impreza WRX (2005+)
you could not swap parts between an '04 and an '05 EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE BOTH IN ESP. (Its an example, I don't know what the ESP listing says). If, however, it said:
Impreza WRX (2002+)
you could swap between the '04 and '05 cars. Does this make sense?
Andy H.
Impreza WRX (2002-2004)
Impreza WRX (2005+)
you could not swap parts between an '04 and an '05 EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE BOTH IN ESP. (Its an example, I don't know what the ESP listing says). If, however, it said:
Impreza WRX (2002+)
you could swap between the '04 and '05 cars. Does this make sense?
Andy H.
| sciolist | 11-18-2006 07:46 PM |
Oh man.... This stuff must have been written by engineers. :D
If you mean 'do I understand?', yes, absolutely. If you mean 'do I think this is reasonable?', well... I guess it's all just a bunch of guys with nothing better to do than drive around parking lots. Oi friggin' vey. Looks like I'll probably have to find some other way to waste that thousand dollars.
[QUOTE=adhowe70;16039266] Does this make sense?
Andy H.[/QUOTE]
If you mean 'do I understand?', yes, absolutely. If you mean 'do I think this is reasonable?', well... I guess it's all just a bunch of guys with nothing better to do than drive around parking lots. Oi friggin' vey. Looks like I'll probably have to find some other way to waste that thousand dollars.
[QUOTE=adhowe70;16039266] Does this make sense?
Andy H.[/QUOTE]
| Scooby South | 11-18-2006 09:04 PM |
LEGAL.....thats all I have to say...UD/BD works....and as our fearless BSP monster bought one to put on his car..(Joel)...I can safely say....DONE Deal...
;)
Bill
;)
Bill
| bdi | 11-19-2006 12:54 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South;16040091]LEGAL.....thats all I have to say...UD/BD works....and as our fearless BSP monster bought one to put on his car..(Joel)...I can safely say....DONE Deal...
;)
Bill[/QUOTE]
Would this apply to STU STi's aswell?
;)
Bill[/QUOTE]
Would this apply to STU STi's aswell?
| Patrick L | 11-19-2006 02:58 AM |
[QUOTE=bdi;16041669]Would this apply to STU STi's aswell?[/QUOTE]
No UD/BD in ST
14.2.F. Addition of spoilers, splitters, body kits, rear wings and nonfunctional
scoops/vents is allowed. The intent of this allowance
is to accommodate commonly available appearance kits, and
replicas thereof, which have no significant aerodynamic function
at Solo speeds. Body kits are limited to bumper covers, valances,
side skirts, and fender flares. Standard parts may not be
removed except for the substitution of spoilers, rear wings,
bumper covers and valances. Rear wings must attach only aft of
the rear wheel centerline. Total surface area of all spoilers, splitters
and rear wing may not exceed 8 square feet as seen from
above (see 12.9). [B]Substitution of rear spoilers or wings must
retain any original third brake light functionality unless otherwise
equipped.[/B] No underbody panels may be added or substituted.
The drilling of holes for the purpose of mounting these
pieces is permitted.
No UD/BD in ST
14.2.F. Addition of spoilers, splitters, body kits, rear wings and nonfunctional
scoops/vents is allowed. The intent of this allowance
is to accommodate commonly available appearance kits, and
replicas thereof, which have no significant aerodynamic function
at Solo speeds. Body kits are limited to bumper covers, valances,
side skirts, and fender flares. Standard parts may not be
removed except for the substitution of spoilers, rear wings,
bumper covers and valances. Rear wings must attach only aft of
the rear wheel centerline. Total surface area of all spoilers, splitters
and rear wing may not exceed 8 square feet as seen from
above (see 12.9). [B]Substitution of rear spoilers or wings must
retain any original third brake light functionality unless otherwise
equipped.[/B] No underbody panels may be added or substituted.
The drilling of holes for the purpose of mounting these
pieces is permitted.
| Patrick L | 11-19-2006 03:09 AM |
I was talk to Andrew Hahn, one of my Hot Subarus team mates at the Subaru Challenge in Texas. I see no problem with the UD/BD to the Limited spoiler in in BSP. Plus, if you wanted. You could add a SP spoiler plate to it as long as it's doesn't extend no more than 10 inches from the original bodywork in any direction. I wonder it you could just then just take off the Limited spoiler and replace it with a SP legal spoiler.
| sciolist | 11-19-2006 12:17 PM |
I think not. 15.2.B stipulates that deletion of factory trim is only allowed through UD/BD; and 15.2.H only provides for the addition of spoilers, not deletion.
Everyone's problems would be solved if the damn wing just had an OE delete option, but without that I think it's wing, LI spoiler or SM.
[QUOTE=Top_Dog;16042336] I wonder it you could just then just take off the Limited spoiler and replace it with a SP legal spoiler.[/QUOTE]
Everyone's problems would be solved if the damn wing just had an OE delete option, but without that I think it's wing, LI spoiler or SM.
[QUOTE=Top_Dog;16042336] I wonder it you could just then just take off the Limited spoiler and replace it with a SP legal spoiler.[/QUOTE]
| crystalhelix | 11-19-2006 02:57 PM |
good stuff....anyone have a replica available that we can 3m tape on yet....the factory one is rediculously overpriced and hard to come buy, not to mention it won't match a PSM car anyways.
| AUTOwrXER | 11-19-2006 04:49 PM |
It's really not that expensive. Also, the shipping weight in a big box was 6 lbs.
The Limited went into AS with the regular STi as of the July Fastrack. It should have been put on the same line in BSP in that same issue, but for some reason it was not published. It will be included on the same line in BSP in 2007, so swapping the spoilers between those models will be legal next year. I don't believe the third brake light is an issue as there is nothing requiring 3rd brake lights and spoilers to be UD/BD together.
The Limited went into AS with the regular STi as of the July Fastrack. It should have been put on the same line in BSP in that same issue, but for some reason it was not published. It will be included on the same line in BSP in 2007, so swapping the spoilers between those models will be legal next year. I don't believe the third brake light is an issue as there is nothing requiring 3rd brake lights and spoilers to be UD/BD together.
| Patrick L | 11-19-2006 05:55 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist;16043928]I think not. 15.2.B stipulates that deletion of factory trim is only allowed through UD/BD; and 15.2.H only provides for the addition of spoilers, not deletion.
Everyone's problems would be solved if the damn wing just had an OE delete option, but without that I think it's wing, LI spoiler or SM.[/QUOTE]
Not if you attach a SP spoiler to the limited spoiler and use it as the base to mount a SP spoiler too as I explained too.
Plus by the way rules explain it. It's a "WING" on the regular STI and a "spoiler" on the Limited.
Everyone's problems would be solved if the damn wing just had an OE delete option, but without that I think it's wing, LI spoiler or SM.[/QUOTE]
Not if you attach a SP spoiler to the limited spoiler and use it as the base to mount a SP spoiler too as I explained too.
Plus by the way rules explain it. It's a "WING" on the regular STI and a "spoiler" on the Limited.
| ULLLOSE | 11-19-2006 08:29 PM |
[QUOTE=Top_Dog;16046618]Not if you attach a SP spoiler to the limited spoiler and use it as the base to mount a SP spoiler too as I explained too.
[/QUOTE]
I hope you are saying this is not legal. Check Fastrack for the protest on the Botkin Camaro for that. You can add an SP legal spoiler but you can not attach it to or mod the stock wing/spoiler in any way.
[/QUOTE]
I hope you are saying this is not legal. Check Fastrack for the protest on the Botkin Camaro for that. You can add an SP legal spoiler but you can not attach it to or mod the stock wing/spoiler in any way.
| sciolist | 11-19-2006 09:11 PM |
Why don't you snag one and blast us out a run of CNC foam knock-offs with your fancy software? Maybe we could all agree to paint them pink. :D
[QUOTE=crystalhelix;16045214]good stuff....anyone have a replica available that we can 3m tape on yet....the factory one is rediculously overpriced and hard to come buy, not to mention it won't match a PSM car anyways.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=crystalhelix;16045214]good stuff....anyone have a replica available that we can 3m tape on yet....the factory one is rediculously overpriced and hard to come buy, not to mention it won't match a PSM car anyways.[/QUOTE]
| sciolist | 11-19-2006 09:23 PM |
[QUOTE=Top_Dog;16046618]Not if you attach a SP spoiler to the limited spoiler and use it as the base to mount a SP spoiler too as I explained too.[/QUOTE]
Why would I want to do that?
[QUOTE=Top_Dog;16046618]Plus by the way rules explain it. It's a "WING" on the regular STI and a "spoiler" on the Limited.[/QUOTE]
You can add a spoiler per 15.2.H. You can add, remove or swap within the limitations of UD/BD. AFAIK there's no wing allowance in SP beyond UD/BD for OE wings. If you wanted to put a "real" wing on an STi, you'd be into 16.G.L, and SM.
Why would I want to do that?
[QUOTE=Top_Dog;16046618]Plus by the way rules explain it. It's a "WING" on the regular STI and a "spoiler" on the Limited.[/QUOTE]
You can add a spoiler per 15.2.H. You can add, remove or swap within the limitations of UD/BD. AFAIK there's no wing allowance in SP beyond UD/BD for OE wings. If you wanted to put a "real" wing on an STi, you'd be into 16.G.L, and SM.
| crystalhelix | 11-19-2006 11:22 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist;16048398]Why don't you snag one and blast us out a run of CNC foam knock-offs with your fancy software? Maybe we could all agree to paint them pink. :D[/QUOTE]
How close to factory spec do I have to be. I may actually be able to look into this. What are my options on materials, etc..? Hmmm.....This would be a fun winter project. You don't have to paint them pink.:devil:
How close to factory spec do I have to be. I may actually be able to look into this. What are my options on materials, etc..? Hmmm.....This would be a fun winter project. You don't have to paint them pink.:devil:
| Patrick L | 11-20-2006 01:28 AM |
[QUOTE=sciolist;16048512]Why would I want to do that?
You can add a spoiler per 15.2.H. You can add, remove or swap within the limitations of UD/BD. AFAIK there's no wing allowance in SP beyond UD/BD for OE wings. If you wanted to put a "real" wing on an STi, you'd be into 16.G.L, and SM.[/QUOTE]
yeah, your right but I am not going into the money pit class.:D
You can add a spoiler per 15.2.H. You can add, remove or swap within the limitations of UD/BD. AFAIK there's no wing allowance in SP beyond UD/BD for OE wings. If you wanted to put a "real" wing on an STi, you'd be into 16.G.L, and SM.[/QUOTE]
yeah, your right but I am not going into the money pit class.:D
| Patrick L | 11-20-2006 01:30 AM |
[QUOTE=ULLLOSE;16047985]I hope you are saying this is not legal. Check Fastrack for the protest on the Botkin Camaro for that. You can add an SP legal spoiler but you can not attach it to or mod the stock wing/spoiler in any way.[/QUOTE]
but wasn't his factory peice considered a wing and not a spoiler. It say a wing is one that allows air to go under it. The spoiler does not.
but wasn't his factory peice considered a wing and not a spoiler. It say a wing is one that allows air to go under it. The spoiler does not.
| ULLLOSE | 11-20-2006 01:37 AM |
[QUOTE=Top_Dog;16050702]but wasn't his factory peice considered a wing and not a spoiler. It say a wing is one that allows air to go under it. The spoiler does not.[/QUOTE]
Does not matter what he had... Read the Fastrack, the rules do not allow for mods to the factory part at all.
Does not matter what he had... Read the Fastrack, the rules do not allow for mods to the factory part at all.
| silver arrow | 11-20-2006 01:46 AM |
[QUOTE=sciolist;16048512]Why would I want to do that?
You can add a spoiler per 15.2.H. You can add, remove or swap within the limitations of UD/BD. AFAIK there's no wing allowance in SP beyond UD/BD for OE wings. If you wanted to put a "real" wing on an STi, you'd be into 16.G.L, and SM.[/QUOTE]
You seen the red EVO at nationals with the huge aluminum wing the was high enough to be at almost roofline. That was an STU car.
You can add a spoiler per 15.2.H. You can add, remove or swap within the limitations of UD/BD. AFAIK there's no wing allowance in SP beyond UD/BD for OE wings. If you wanted to put a "real" wing on an STi, you'd be into 16.G.L, and SM.[/QUOTE]
You seen the red EVO at nationals with the huge aluminum wing the was high enough to be at almost roofline. That was an STU car.
| afpdl | 11-20-2006 02:06 AM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow;16050806]You seen the red EVO at nationals with the huge aluminum wing the was high enough to be at almost roofline. That was an STU car.[/QUOTE]
ST allows for substitution, SP does not. Although the rules do say the wings/spoilers should not have any significant effect in an autox, but how the hell do you measure that?
ST allows for substitution, SP does not. Although the rules do say the wings/spoilers should not have any significant effect in an autox, but how the hell do you measure that?
| silver arrow | 11-20-2006 11:02 AM |
[QUOTE=afpdl;16050935]ST allows for substitution, SP does not. Although the rules do say the wings/spoilers should not have any significant effect in an autox, but how the hell do you measure that?[/QUOTE]
I think an adjustable angle purpose built racing wing placed as high as possible is not for appearance, but rather aero. I hope that guy was protested, because I would have.
I think an adjustable angle purpose built racing wing placed as high as possible is not for appearance, but rather aero. I hope that guy was protested, because I would have.
| sciolist | 11-20-2006 12:07 PM |
15.2.H.2.a says, "...or an exact replica in an alternate material.".
I shudder to think what "exact" means to an ME picking his way through boring meetings on the laptop. :eek: To me, "alternate material" means anything that can legally be brought into possession and held still long enough to machine.
The EIFS concept has certainly proven itself as an exterior material. Seems like medium or high-density foam with say, a 15 mil color topcoat would work fine. Sounds like more fun than magnetics, too. :)
[QUOTE=crystalhelix;16049730]How close to factory spec do I have to be. I may actually be able to look into this. What are my options on materials, etc..? Hmmm.....This would be a fun winter project. You don't have to paint them pink.:devil:[/QUOTE]
I shudder to think what "exact" means to an ME picking his way through boring meetings on the laptop. :eek: To me, "alternate material" means anything that can legally be brought into possession and held still long enough to machine.
The EIFS concept has certainly proven itself as an exterior material. Seems like medium or high-density foam with say, a 15 mil color topcoat would work fine. Sounds like more fun than magnetics, too. :)
[QUOTE=crystalhelix;16049730]How close to factory spec do I have to be. I may actually be able to look into this. What are my options on materials, etc..? Hmmm.....This would be a fun winter project. You don't have to paint them pink.:devil:[/QUOTE]
| thunderbird | 11-20-2006 12:30 PM |
[QUOTE=afpdl;16050935]ST allows for substitution, SP does not. Although the rules do say the wings/spoilers should not have any significant effect in an autox, but how the hell do you measure that?[/QUOTE]
This has been discussed a lot on SCCA forums also, because significant is one of those immeasurable words. So I consulted my favorite aerodynamicist and he says that at autocross corning speeds, (lets say 45mph which would be a very fast corner) an 8 square foot multi-element well designed wing, set to optimal angle would produce at best a hair over 100 pounds of downforce. Is that significant? Its about the same amount of weight as a full tank of gas.
And August's fasttrack changed the max STU wing size to 5 square feet.
This has been discussed a lot on SCCA forums also, because significant is one of those immeasurable words. So I consulted my favorite aerodynamicist and he says that at autocross corning speeds, (lets say 45mph which would be a very fast corner) an 8 square foot multi-element well designed wing, set to optimal angle would produce at best a hair over 100 pounds of downforce. Is that significant? Its about the same amount of weight as a full tank of gas.
And August's fasttrack changed the max STU wing size to 5 square feet.
| crystalhelix | 11-20-2006 12:30 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist;16054208]15.2.H.2.a says, "...or an exact replica in an alternate material.".
I shudder to think what "exact" means to an ME picking his way through boring meetings on the laptop. :eek: To me, "alternate material" means anything that can legally be brought into possession and held still long enough to machine.
The EIFS concept has certainly proven itself as an exterior material. Seems like medium or high-density foam with say, a 15 mil color topcoat would work fine. Sounds like more fun than magnetics, too. :)[/QUOTE]
I was thinking of claying it up, pouring a silicone mold of the clay at work and molding it out of whatever I can inject into the mold...polyurethane, foam, etc...I am off to speak to our prototyping tech...:cool:
I shudder to think what "exact" means to an ME picking his way through boring meetings on the laptop. :eek: To me, "alternate material" means anything that can legally be brought into possession and held still long enough to machine.
The EIFS concept has certainly proven itself as an exterior material. Seems like medium or high-density foam with say, a 15 mil color topcoat would work fine. Sounds like more fun than magnetics, too. :)[/QUOTE]
I was thinking of claying it up, pouring a silicone mold of the clay at work and molding it out of whatever I can inject into the mold...polyurethane, foam, etc...I am off to speak to our prototyping tech...:cool:
| crystalhelix | 11-20-2006 12:44 PM |
Ok...I could make a silicone mold and make the spoiler out of polyurethane foam. But it wouldn't have any bolts. Would it be legal to put some bondo on it, paint it and attach it with magnetic material?
| sciolist | 11-20-2006 12:54 PM |
Are you thinking of removing it between events? Why not use double-sided foam tape and leave it on?
[QUOTE=crystalhelix;16054673]Ok...I could make a silicone mold and make the spoiler out of polyurethane foam. But it wouldn't have any bolts. Would it be legal to put some bondo on it, paint it and attach it with magnetic material?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=crystalhelix;16054673]Ok...I could make a silicone mold and make the spoiler out of polyurethane foam. But it wouldn't have any bolts. Would it be legal to put some bondo on it, paint it and attach it with magnetic material?[/QUOTE]
| Calamity Jesus | 11-20-2006 12:59 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix;16054673]Would it be legal to put some bondo on it, paint it and attach it with magnetic material?[/QUOTE]I'm pretty sure that I just read (in the same paragraph with the brake light stipulation) that the factory mounting hardware needed to be used.
| Patrick L | 11-20-2006 01:14 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow;16050806]You seen the red EVO at nationals with the huge aluminum wing the was high enough to be at almost roofline. That was an STU car.[/QUOTE]
They are allow to put that type of Wing on the EVO cause it does not have a intergrated 3rd brake light in the stock wing.
They are allow to put that type of Wing on the EVO cause it does not have a intergrated 3rd brake light in the stock wing.
| Patrick L | 11-20-2006 01:17 PM |
So guys, do I understand it right. If you had a STI limited. You can not removed the trunk lip spoiler and replace it with a SP style spoiler?
| silver arrow | 11-20-2006 01:18 PM |
[QUOTE=Top_Dog;16055065]They are allow to put that type of Wing on the EVO cause it does not have a intergrated 3rd brake light in the stock wing.[/QUOTE]
It still adds significant downforce, and is clearly a performance part not an appearance kit as specified by the rules.
It still adds significant downforce, and is clearly a performance part not an appearance kit as specified by the rules.
| trhoppe | 11-20-2006 01:37 PM |
Come on guys, this is about whether a plastic lip spoiler attaches with bolts or tape? No one gives a carp. Just attach it however, no one will throw papers if your spoiler is attached via tape, magnets, or bolts :lol:
Now that I'm outside looking in, this blows me away. But then again, I guess this is why I did stuff like the brake dust shields and big brakes :lol:
-Tom
Now that I'm outside looking in, this blows me away. But then again, I guess this is why I did stuff like the brake dust shields and big brakes :lol:
-Tom
| crystalhelix | 11-20-2006 01:41 PM |
yeah...and I feel so great saying hoppe said it was it ok...:p
I was thinking magnetic because I could remove it and not have to tape anything to the decklid...for everything but events...I just have more investigating to do.
I was thinking magnetic because I could remove it and not have to tape anything to the decklid...for everything but events...I just have more investigating to do.
| Patrick L | 11-20-2006 01:44 PM |
Well I wanted to ask about this same issue as I had someone ask about putting a spoiler on a STI for BSP. Now I know what to tell him.
| sciolist | 11-20-2006 01:57 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe;16055394]Now that I'm outside looking in, this blows me away. [/QUOTE]
Uh, yeah.... It blows me away too. Along with having to tote little OSB squares around so's not to insult the delicate tarmac while everyone else apparently gets to pound massive steel spikes through it with impunity.:huh:
I'm not making this crap up, I'm just trying to play by the damn rules, Tom.
Uh, yeah.... It blows me away too. Along with having to tote little OSB squares around so's not to insult the delicate tarmac while everyone else apparently gets to pound massive steel spikes through it with impunity.:huh:
I'm not making this crap up, I'm just trying to play by the damn rules, Tom.
| afpdl | 11-20-2006 03:07 PM |
[QUOTE=thunderbird;16054489]This has been discussed a lot on SCCA forums also, because significant is one of those immeasurable words. So I consulted my favorite aerodynamicist and he says that at autocross corning speeds, (lets say 45mph which would be a very fast corner) an 8 square foot multi-element well designed wing, set to optimal angle would produce at best a hair over 100 pounds of downforce. Is that significant? Its about the same amount of weight as a full tank of gas.
And August's fasttrack changed the max STU wing size to 5 square feet.[/QUOTE]
Mass and down force are two completely different things. 100lbs at 45mph is more than I expected honestly. What does that look like in a third gear offset?
And August's fasttrack changed the max STU wing size to 5 square feet.[/QUOTE]
Mass and down force are two completely different things. 100lbs at 45mph is more than I expected honestly. What does that look like in a third gear offset?
| silver arrow | 11-20-2006 03:49 PM |
[QUOTE=afpdl;16056514]Mass and down force are two completely different things. 100lbs at 45mph is more than I expected honestly. What does that look like in a third gear offset?[/QUOTE]
100 lbs at 45 mph is pretty good and would be an aerodynamic peice. STi wing is like 100 lbs at 80-100 mph. 2 months ago on a fast course, my car was perfect in the 2nd gear sections but loose in the faster 3rd gear sweeper. That would have made a huge difference.
100 lbs at 45 mph is pretty good and would be an aerodynamic peice. STi wing is like 100 lbs at 80-100 mph. 2 months ago on a fast course, my car was perfect in the 2nd gear sections but loose in the faster 3rd gear sweeper. That would have made a huge difference.
| AUTOwrXER | 11-20-2006 05:08 PM |
Tell me again, why would you want to plant the rear end of the car? :)
Pat - regarding the question about removing the STi Limited wing, the answer is that there is no allowance to do so. You could add a SP-style spoiler just in front of it, but there is no allowance to remove factory spoilers.
Pat - regarding the question about removing the STi Limited wing, the answer is that there is no allowance to do so. You could add a SP-style spoiler just in front of it, but there is no allowance to remove factory spoilers.
| sciolist | 11-20-2006 05:24 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER;16058074]Tell me again, why would you want to plant the rear end of the car? :)[/QUOTE]
+1, but was thinking it might be strategically unwise to initiate the thought. :)
+1, but was thinking it might be strategically unwise to initiate the thought. :)
| silver arrow | 11-20-2006 06:03 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist;16058317]+1, but was thinking it might be strategically unwise to initiate the thought. :)[/QUOTE]
Because the car can behave differently at different speeds. I already discused a situation I encountered.
Because the car can behave differently at different speeds. I already discused a situation I encountered.
| crystalhelix | 12-09-2006 02:13 PM |
For those who care to know what this will net them in weight savings, I swapped my trunklid this morning.
Trunk with STi wing and all hardware* - 40.5 lbs
Trunk (wingless) with all hardware* - 23 lbs
*hardware being the emergency release handle, lock, cables, and the bracket that engages the body to keep the trunk shut.
I imagine the STi limited spoiler weighs ~2-3lbs. So after adding that you are looking at a weight savings of about 15lbs. It's weight up high in the back though. The limited spoiler from the factory goes for $238 on genuinesubaruparts.com from Jamie Thomas. A swap was hard for me to find but a local junkyard had one. It cost me $250 for a PSM wingless trunk. I have seen just STi wings on e-bay go for $255 and the decklid with holes go for $50-100. So that would put you up $100 on the swap plus having to buy the limited lip puts you to $130, paint to match maybe the end number being $180-200 to do the swap to save 15lbs. I am still unsure as to whether to part with my STi trunk.
On another note, as a general question, how many BSP drivers would accept this as an "factory" replica?
[URL="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/02-06-WRX-STi-Limited-Style-Spoiler-Wing-JDM-IMPREZA_W0QQitemZ200055483739QQihZ010QQcategoryZ33638QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem"]E-bay Replica[/URL]
I like it because I could do magnetics to remove it for all but autoX.
Trunk with STi wing and all hardware* - 40.5 lbs
Trunk (wingless) with all hardware* - 23 lbs
*hardware being the emergency release handle, lock, cables, and the bracket that engages the body to keep the trunk shut.
I imagine the STi limited spoiler weighs ~2-3lbs. So after adding that you are looking at a weight savings of about 15lbs. It's weight up high in the back though. The limited spoiler from the factory goes for $238 on genuinesubaruparts.com from Jamie Thomas. A swap was hard for me to find but a local junkyard had one. It cost me $250 for a PSM wingless trunk. I have seen just STi wings on e-bay go for $255 and the decklid with holes go for $50-100. So that would put you up $100 on the swap plus having to buy the limited lip puts you to $130, paint to match maybe the end number being $180-200 to do the swap to save 15lbs. I am still unsure as to whether to part with my STi trunk.
On another note, as a general question, how many BSP drivers would accept this as an "factory" replica?
[URL="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/02-06-WRX-STi-Limited-Style-Spoiler-Wing-JDM-IMPREZA_W0QQitemZ200055483739QQihZ010QQcategoryZ33638QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem"]E-bay Replica[/URL]
I like it because I could do magnetics to remove it for all but autoX.
| sciolist | 12-09-2006 06:03 PM |
J:
I think you and I are pretty much in the same boat with this. My motivations are (legally) cleaning up the look of the car and weight loss. I was planning to swap decks, partly to save the trouble of filling the holes, and partly to retain the OE parts in case I defect.
One thing that occured to me is that technically the blank deck isn't legal, since it's not an STi deck. My gut feeling would be to let that ride, but I haven't emailed Doug yet.
A "ghetto" appraoch would be to just pull off the STi wing, attach the LI trim piece and put OE seal covers (96078FE020TG) over the remaining exposed holes.
To answer your question, I think the Ebay trim ought to be considered kosher, but I'd want to have an email from Doug in the log book to that effect.
I think you and I are pretty much in the same boat with this. My motivations are (legally) cleaning up the look of the car and weight loss. I was planning to swap decks, partly to save the trouble of filling the holes, and partly to retain the OE parts in case I defect.
One thing that occured to me is that technically the blank deck isn't legal, since it's not an STi deck. My gut feeling would be to let that ride, but I haven't emailed Doug yet.
A "ghetto" appraoch would be to just pull off the STi wing, attach the LI trim piece and put OE seal covers (96078FE020TG) over the remaining exposed holes.
To answer your question, I think the Ebay trim ought to be considered kosher, but I'd want to have an email from Doug in the log book to that effect.
| sciolist | 12-09-2006 06:05 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow;16058817]Because the car can behave differently at different speeds. I already discused a situation I encountered.[/QUOTE]
Not for the purpose being discussed here.
Not for the purpose being discussed here.
| crystalhelix | 12-10-2006 08:26 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist;16268535]J:
I think you and I are pretty much in the same boat with this. My motivations are (legally) cleaning up the look of the car and weight loss. I was planning to swap decks, partly to save the trouble of filling the holes, and partly to retain the OE parts in case I defect.
One thing that occured to me is that technically the blank deck isn't legal, since it's not an STi deck. My gut feeling would be to let that ride, but I haven't emailed Doug yet.
A "ghetto" appraoch would be to just pull off the STi wing, attach the LI trim piece and put OE seal covers (96078FE020TG) over the remaining exposed holes.
To answer your question, I think the Ebay trim ought to be considered kosher, but I'd want to have an email from Doug in the log book to that effect.[/QUOTE]
I thought about this today.
If anyone is going to get that anal about it I would be glad to ask whomever actually buys a limited trunk, limited wing, paints them both to match (or not)(considering I haven't seen a serious BSP car that is the new pearl or UGM yet) to tell me what theirs weighed. I will wait to see what Joel feels is appropriate, I could always try to persuade him to weigh his and tell me how much I have to ballast mine to make it the equavalent if does something different. At most it would be 1lb ish. I can add a 1 lb magnet to the inner trunk lid if it protestors got that anal. I can't wait to take the car on a joy-ride and see what it's not like to have that wing right in the middle of my rear view mirror:banana:
I think you and I are pretty much in the same boat with this. My motivations are (legally) cleaning up the look of the car and weight loss. I was planning to swap decks, partly to save the trouble of filling the holes, and partly to retain the OE parts in case I defect.
One thing that occured to me is that technically the blank deck isn't legal, since it's not an STi deck. My gut feeling would be to let that ride, but I haven't emailed Doug yet.
A "ghetto" appraoch would be to just pull off the STi wing, attach the LI trim piece and put OE seal covers (96078FE020TG) over the remaining exposed holes.
To answer your question, I think the Ebay trim ought to be considered kosher, but I'd want to have an email from Doug in the log book to that effect.[/QUOTE]
I thought about this today.
If anyone is going to get that anal about it I would be glad to ask whomever actually buys a limited trunk, limited wing, paints them both to match (or not)(considering I haven't seen a serious BSP car that is the new pearl or UGM yet) to tell me what theirs weighed. I will wait to see what Joel feels is appropriate, I could always try to persuade him to weigh his and tell me how much I have to ballast mine to make it the equavalent if does something different. At most it would be 1lb ish. I can add a 1 lb magnet to the inner trunk lid if it protestors got that anal. I can't wait to take the car on a joy-ride and see what it's not like to have that wing right in the middle of my rear view mirror:banana:
| sciolist | 12-10-2006 09:47 PM |
^I really think the deck is a non-issue, but the only thing worse than having to buy around the rules is having to do so repeatedly.
Re ballast, I had the same thought about the wing itself at the beginning. Of course no one would care locally, but I didn't want to take that game to Packwood... and on it went.
Only a fool would think there was any significant performance issue either way. I just wanted the damn wing off my car.
Re ballast, I had the same thought about the wing itself at the beginning. Of course no one would care locally, but I didn't want to take that game to Packwood... and on it went.
Only a fool would think there was any significant performance issue either way. I just wanted the damn wing off my car.
| crystalhelix | 12-11-2006 08:37 AM |
[QUOTE=sciolist;16277799]^I really think the deck is a non-issue, but the only thing worse than having to buy around the rules is having to do so repeatedly.
Re ballast, I had the same thought about the wing itself at the beginning. Of course no one would care locally, but I didn't want to take that game to Packwood... and on it went.
Only a fool would think there was any significant performance issue either way. I just wanted the damn wing off my car.[/QUOTE]
If you put a replica wing on and it didn't weigh as much but affected the car equally when considering aerodynamics the only argument I can think of is weight. I still plan on adding a replica spoiler on there. And there are allowances for factory replicas, but I am not 100% on the wording for how they have to attach.
Re ballast, I had the same thought about the wing itself at the beginning. Of course no one would care locally, but I didn't want to take that game to Packwood... and on it went.
Only a fool would think there was any significant performance issue either way. I just wanted the damn wing off my car.[/QUOTE]
If you put a replica wing on and it didn't weigh as much but affected the car equally when considering aerodynamics the only argument I can think of is weight. I still plan on adding a replica spoiler on there. And there are allowances for factory replicas, but I am not 100% on the wording for how they have to attach.
| RainMaker | 12-11-2006 12:15 PM |
[SM racer] I dont understand the issue... [/SM racer]
;)
;)
| AUTOwrXER | 12-12-2006 04:37 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix;16277021]I thought about this today.
If anyone is going to get that anal about it I would be glad to ask whomever actually buys a limited trunk, limited wing, paints them both to match (or not)(considering I haven't seen a serious BSP car that is the new pearl or UGM yet) to tell me what theirs weighed. I will wait to see what Joel feels is appropriate, I could always try to persuade him to weigh his and tell me how much I have to ballast mine to make it the equavalent if does something different. At most it would be 1lb ish. I can add a 1 lb magnet to the inner trunk lid if it protestors got that anal. I can't wait to take the car on a joy-ride and see what it's not like to have that wing right in the middle of my rear view mirror:banana:[/QUOTE]
Help me understand the issue here. Are the mounting holes in a different location?
My reading says that I can swap spoilers without having to swap the trunk, so covering the holes (if applicable) would be kosher.
If anyone is going to get that anal about it I would be glad to ask whomever actually buys a limited trunk, limited wing, paints them both to match (or not)(considering I haven't seen a serious BSP car that is the new pearl or UGM yet) to tell me what theirs weighed. I will wait to see what Joel feels is appropriate, I could always try to persuade him to weigh his and tell me how much I have to ballast mine to make it the equavalent if does something different. At most it would be 1lb ish. I can add a 1 lb magnet to the inner trunk lid if it protestors got that anal. I can't wait to take the car on a joy-ride and see what it's not like to have that wing right in the middle of my rear view mirror:banana:[/QUOTE]
Help me understand the issue here. Are the mounting holes in a different location?
My reading says that I can swap spoilers without having to swap the trunk, so covering the holes (if applicable) would be kosher.
| crystalhelix | 12-12-2006 05:11 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER;16301054]Help me understand the issue here. Are the mounting holes in a different location?
My reading says that I can swap spoilers without having to swap the trunk, so covering the holes (if applicable) would be kosher.[/QUOTE]
No idea, I haven't seen the inside of a limited trunk or an actual OEM limited spoiler. My argurment is that I can use a replica. The e-bay one is a replica. But it doesn't bolt on, it attaches differently (3m tape, or in my case magnetics). So I am assuming someone would argue that because I didn't bolt it on it's not legal, and the only difference would be the weight of some bolts, and lack of holes in my trunklid (technically more weight). Ie...taping 4 bolts or whatever to the decklid-underside if that's what it takes to make people happy.
My goal is to run a wingless trunk (no holes) when I want to enjoy my car, slap on the magnetic limited spoiler when I want to race and not get protested.:cool:
Will it fly under protest?;)
strangely written rules are a love/hate relationship, at the same time it would be hard for me to write good rules so I commend those that do/try.:D
My reading says that I can swap spoilers without having to swap the trunk, so covering the holes (if applicable) would be kosher.[/QUOTE]
No idea, I haven't seen the inside of a limited trunk or an actual OEM limited spoiler. My argurment is that I can use a replica. The e-bay one is a replica. But it doesn't bolt on, it attaches differently (3m tape, or in my case magnetics). So I am assuming someone would argue that because I didn't bolt it on it's not legal, and the only difference would be the weight of some bolts, and lack of holes in my trunklid (technically more weight). Ie...taping 4 bolts or whatever to the decklid-underside if that's what it takes to make people happy.
My goal is to run a wingless trunk (no holes) when I want to enjoy my car, slap on the magnetic limited spoiler when I want to race and not get protested.:cool:
Will it fly under protest?;)
strangely written rules are a love/hate relationship, at the same time it would be hard for me to write good rules so I commend those that do/try.:D
| AUTOwrXER | 12-13-2006 12:24 PM |
The spoiler falls under update/backdate. I don't see anything there that specifies method of attachment, and a replica is specifically allowed, so IMO it is legal.
FWIW I'm not sure the spoiler would stay on the back of your car with magnetics. If you are pulling max g force mid-corner and hit a bump, it would take some pretty strong magnets to hold it on. You may wind up with some pretty heavy magnets in the end. I'm just going to bolt the OEM spoiler on. Based on the eBay price they were close to what Bill quoted...
FWIW I'm not sure the spoiler would stay on the back of your car with magnetics. If you are pulling max g force mid-corner and hit a bump, it would take some pretty strong magnets to hold it on. You may wind up with some pretty heavy magnets in the end. I'm just going to bolt the OEM spoiler on. Based on the eBay price they were close to what Bill quoted...
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