| scoobybrande | 06-11-2003 02:01 PM |
Oil for racing, with facts, for a change
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For whatever reason, I long believed that a heavier oil was necessary when racing your car. I took my 02 WRX to a track day at New Hampshire International Speedway in August of '02, and filled the sump with Amsoil Series 2000 20W-50. Since I like facts and loathe baseless opinions, I had the oil analyzed by a lab afterwards. I was displeased with the results. Curious if the problem was oil that was too thick, the next track day I did, May '03 at Lime Rock Park, I ran Amsoil 10W-40. Once again, the results were analyzed. This time, they were much more acceptable. I will post the results from both below.
[CODE]
date sampled 9/17/02 6/4/03
miles on unit 15931 33841
miles on sample 2940 3114
oil used S2K 20W-50 AMO 10W-40
visc. @100 16.8 13.83
Oxidation 15.6 8
Nitration 12.9 11
TBN 12.5 9.84
Iron 17 7
Chromium 0 1
Lead 93 20
Copper 6 11
Tin 5 0
Aluminum 9 5
Silicon 9 14
Boron 32 1
Sodium 3 4
Magnesium 383 23
Calcium 3168 3412
Barium 0 2
Phosphorus 1325 1156
Zinc 1618 1185
[/CODE]
Lead, and maybe tin, represent bearing wear. These numbers are both drastically higher with the 20W-50. 20 ppm lead could even be considered normal street wear on some cars (though not Subaru's in my opinion). 93 is definitely through the roof. Iron and aluminum are both higher, though not drastically. These represent piston on cylinder wall wear.
Both oils, from what can be discerned from these results, are still intact and still capable of many thousands of miles more in a street car. This is based on their reserve TBN and their viscocities, both of which are still "in-grade". The TBN with the 10W-40 is probably more like 11.8, different test method from the 20W-50.
So, is this conclusive proof that heavier oils are not better for racing? No, of course not. One test is just food for thought, it would take scores of similar tests to begin to prove anything. But I thought I would contribute these results so that some objectivity can enter the old "which oil is better" debate.
[CODE]
date sampled 9/17/02 6/4/03
miles on unit 15931 33841
miles on sample 2940 3114
oil used S2K 20W-50 AMO 10W-40
visc. @100 16.8 13.83
Oxidation 15.6 8
Nitration 12.9 11
TBN 12.5 9.84
Iron 17 7
Chromium 0 1
Lead 93 20
Copper 6 11
Tin 5 0
Aluminum 9 5
Silicon 9 14
Boron 32 1
Sodium 3 4
Magnesium 383 23
Calcium 3168 3412
Barium 0 2
Phosphorus 1325 1156
Zinc 1618 1185
[/CODE]
Lead, and maybe tin, represent bearing wear. These numbers are both drastically higher with the 20W-50. 20 ppm lead could even be considered normal street wear on some cars (though not Subaru's in my opinion). 93 is definitely through the roof. Iron and aluminum are both higher, though not drastically. These represent piston on cylinder wall wear.
Both oils, from what can be discerned from these results, are still intact and still capable of many thousands of miles more in a street car. This is based on their reserve TBN and their viscocities, both of which are still "in-grade". The TBN with the 10W-40 is probably more like 11.8, different test method from the 20W-50.
So, is this conclusive proof that heavier oils are not better for racing? No, of course not. One test is just food for thought, it would take scores of similar tests to begin to prove anything. But I thought I would contribute these results so that some objectivity can enter the old "which oil is better" debate.
| mch | 06-11-2003 02:32 PM |
In the interest of scientific accuracy, you should do a test of:
5w30 dino oil (IIRC the recommended viscosity)
5w30 or 10w30 synthetic
I have thought about this for a while and have a couple of hypothesis(ii?)
1. Higher viscosity oil does not flow as well through the smaller oil channels nor in areas where the tolerances are extremely tight thereby leaving less oil in place to protect high wear items.
2. Higher viscosity oil requires increased oil pressures increasing wear on that critical piece of equipment (the oil pump).
3. Higher viscosity oil will run hotter and break down faster.
I read an interesting article a number of years ago in Cyclist Mag about oil and pumping losses in motorcycle engines. You want to use the lightest, most free flowing, clinging oil you can for maximum efficiency. Oh, and we want it to last forever as well, and cost under 1$ a qt...:lol:
Thanks for sharing your work. I look forward to seeing any further testing.
mch
5w30 dino oil (IIRC the recommended viscosity)
5w30 or 10w30 synthetic
I have thought about this for a while and have a couple of hypothesis(ii?)
1. Higher viscosity oil does not flow as well through the smaller oil channels nor in areas where the tolerances are extremely tight thereby leaving less oil in place to protect high wear items.
2. Higher viscosity oil requires increased oil pressures increasing wear on that critical piece of equipment (the oil pump).
3. Higher viscosity oil will run hotter and break down faster.
I read an interesting article a number of years ago in Cyclist Mag about oil and pumping losses in motorcycle engines. You want to use the lightest, most free flowing, clinging oil you can for maximum efficiency. Oh, and we want it to last forever as well, and cost under 1$ a qt...:lol:
Thanks for sharing your work. I look forward to seeing any further testing.
mch
| HoRo1 | 06-11-2003 02:34 PM |
Interesting. The results [U]might[/U] be explained by engine load differing between the tracks. Or how about the 17K+ miles that you'd put on the car over the 9 intervening months?
Here in hot and sunny SoCal, I use 10-40 Syntec or a 10-30 Mobil or Castrol synthetic.
Here in hot and sunny SoCal, I use 10-40 Syntec or a 10-30 Mobil or Castrol synthetic.
| TyrannoSullyRex | 06-11-2003 02:37 PM |
Do the same thing with the recommended weight (5W30) and see what results you get. Just curious, where did you send your oil to get tested?
I think the tighter tolerances of a newer/modern engine combined with heavier oil is bad situation waiting to happen. I'm pretty sure heavier weight oils were needed in the 70s/80s and sooner due to the large tolerances in engines at the time.
I think the tighter tolerances of a newer/modern engine combined with heavier oil is bad situation waiting to happen. I'm pretty sure heavier weight oils were needed in the 70s/80s and sooner due to the large tolerances in engines at the time.
| Ver. 8 STi WRB | 06-11-2003 02:55 PM |
Just a thought, Prodrive reccomends 5w-40 motul 300v that is even for their built stage 2 engine it may lend a little credence to the thought that heavier may not be better. oil analysis is very apprecitaed thank you to the original poster.
| scoobybrande | 06-11-2003 03:05 PM |
Thanks for the interest, guys.
The 20W-50 was tested by Oil Analyzers Inc.(OAI) This is the lab that either is Amsoil, or is tied to Amsoil. The 10W-40 was tested by CTC Analytical Services. OAI subcontracts out a lot of work to CTC now, that's why I seem to have used two different labs.
I would like very much to try this experiment on lots of different viscocities, brands, and formulations. I might have just sold my car, so sadly, this may not happen. :(
The mileage difference could contribute to the wear difference, but I wouldn't think much (I've been wrong before though
;) ) The differences in the tracks could also contribute. Though, at Lime Rock on the 10W-40 I had much better tires so I' m sure cornering and braking g's were elevated just a bit.
I will do this as often as I can as long as I own the car. I hope other people might be interested and do their own tests with analysis.
The 20W-50 was tested by Oil Analyzers Inc.(OAI) This is the lab that either is Amsoil, or is tied to Amsoil. The 10W-40 was tested by CTC Analytical Services. OAI subcontracts out a lot of work to CTC now, that's why I seem to have used two different labs.
I would like very much to try this experiment on lots of different viscocities, brands, and formulations. I might have just sold my car, so sadly, this may not happen. :(
The mileage difference could contribute to the wear difference, but I wouldn't think much (I've been wrong before though
;) ) The differences in the tracks could also contribute. Though, at Lime Rock on the 10W-40 I had much better tires so I' m sure cornering and braking g's were elevated just a bit.
I will do this as often as I can as long as I own the car. I hope other people might be interested and do their own tests with analysis.
| xstar | 06-11-2003 04:19 PM |
I have been think about how to share my oil analysis results. This looks like a perfect thread to share my info. :)
[CODE]
date 6/07/2003 5/13/2003 5/21/2002
miles on unit 30386 27992 (virgin oil)
miles on sample 2390 ~1500 (virgin oil)
oil used Mobil1 10W30 Mobil1 10W30 Mobil1 10W30
SUS visc. @ 210F 58.2 59.3 58.3
TBN 7.0 14.5 not tested
IRON 8 8 1
CHROMIUM 1 1 0
LEAD 2 2 0
COPPER 2 2 0
TIN 0 0 0
ALUMINUM 5 5 0
SILICON 7 6 3
BORON 183 181 190
SODIUM 10 8 9
MAGNESIUM 23 25 16
CALCIUM 3224 2883 2976
BARIUM 1 0 0
PHOSPHORUS 822 802 749
ZINC 907 920 827
MOLYBDENUM 75 82 69
NICKEL 1 0 0
MANGANESE 0 1 0
SILVER 0 0 0
TITANIUM 0 0 0
POTASSIUM 1 1 0
[/CODE]
[B]5/13/2003 Sample[/B]
This sample includes 1000 miles driven from Boston to West Virginia (round trip). Then includes ~250 track miles at Summit Point.
The Mobil1 10W30 is the SuperSyn formula, purchased at Costco for $3.33/qt in March 2003. The viscosity is kinda low. The norm given by the sampling firm is 59-68.
Oil pressure on the track:
~70 psi WOT
~22 psi hot idle (immediately after a session)
The TBN count and viscosity numbers looked good. I think I must extend my sample mileage to around 3000 miles. I have a new sample of 2400 miles with 4 track days (305 track miles @ NHIS) which I will be analyzed soon. I'll post that once I get it back. Personally, I just want the facts so I don't change the oil too often and waste my money. ;)
[B]6/07/2003 Sample[/B]
This sample includes 305 track miles at NHIS (4 days) and ~2100 road + highway miles.
Notes from the lab: all engine wear appear normal. TBN of 7.0 means there is still usable life left in the oil. Oil and air filtration looked ok with no fuel or anti-freeze in the oil sample. Lab recommended to extend the oil usage interval to 4000 miles.
(edit: corrected with actual sample data and added virigin oil data)
(edit2: added 6/09/2003 sample)
(edit3: re-formatted for better readability)
[CODE]
date 6/07/2003 5/13/2003 5/21/2002
miles on unit 30386 27992 (virgin oil)
miles on sample 2390 ~1500 (virgin oil)
oil used Mobil1 10W30 Mobil1 10W30 Mobil1 10W30
SUS visc. @ 210F 58.2 59.3 58.3
TBN 7.0 14.5 not tested
IRON 8 8 1
CHROMIUM 1 1 0
LEAD 2 2 0
COPPER 2 2 0
TIN 0 0 0
ALUMINUM 5 5 0
SILICON 7 6 3
BORON 183 181 190
SODIUM 10 8 9
MAGNESIUM 23 25 16
CALCIUM 3224 2883 2976
BARIUM 1 0 0
PHOSPHORUS 822 802 749
ZINC 907 920 827
MOLYBDENUM 75 82 69
NICKEL 1 0 0
MANGANESE 0 1 0
SILVER 0 0 0
TITANIUM 0 0 0
POTASSIUM 1 1 0
[/CODE]
[B]5/13/2003 Sample[/B]
This sample includes 1000 miles driven from Boston to West Virginia (round trip). Then includes ~250 track miles at Summit Point.
The Mobil1 10W30 is the SuperSyn formula, purchased at Costco for $3.33/qt in March 2003. The viscosity is kinda low. The norm given by the sampling firm is 59-68.
Oil pressure on the track:
~70 psi WOT
~22 psi hot idle (immediately after a session)
The TBN count and viscosity numbers looked good. I think I must extend my sample mileage to around 3000 miles. I have a new sample of 2400 miles with 4 track days (305 track miles @ NHIS) which I will be analyzed soon. I'll post that once I get it back. Personally, I just want the facts so I don't change the oil too often and waste my money. ;)
[B]6/07/2003 Sample[/B]
This sample includes 305 track miles at NHIS (4 days) and ~2100 road + highway miles.
Notes from the lab: all engine wear appear normal. TBN of 7.0 means there is still usable life left in the oil. Oil and air filtration looked ok with no fuel or anti-freeze in the oil sample. Lab recommended to extend the oil usage interval to 4000 miles.
(edit: corrected with actual sample data and added virigin oil data)
(edit2: added 6/09/2003 sample)
(edit3: re-formatted for better readability)
| scoobybrande | 06-11-2003 04:46 PM |
I eagerly await your further details, but if you were racing on this sample, it looks great! From what little I know of additives, this looks like a very well rounded package; a modest amount of moly, a big bunch of Boron, then the standard Phosphorus and zinc, but in slightly lower concentrations than most, which I like. What formulation of Mobil 1 was this (TriSyn, SuperSyn?) I assume SuperSyn because it's recent, but maybe you had an old supply of something sitting around. Those wear numbers would be excellent if you had only driven on the street, but since you raced, they are amazing. If Mobil 1 is the way to go, I'd be really happy because I sure can get it for cheaper than Amsoil. Give you viscosity measurement if you would, I have some charts that compare different tes methods, we could see how yours did.
If you're interested in a lot more discussion of oil and analysis, go to [url]http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi[/url]
If you're interested in a lot more discussion of oil and analysis, go to [url]http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi[/url]
| xstar | 06-11-2003 11:25 PM |
updated my post. :)
| scoobybrande | 06-12-2003 01:34 AM |
xstar,
Great stuff man. the oil you sampled after Summit Point was still new! I think I've seen virgin analyses with higher wear numbers from contamination. ;) If your next analysis is as encouraging as your first, I might just switch to Mobil 1!
Incidentally, what oil and air filters are you using?
Great stuff man. the oil you sampled after Summit Point was still new! I think I've seen virgin analyses with higher wear numbers from contamination. ;) If your next analysis is as encouraging as your first, I might just switch to Mobil 1!
Incidentally, what oil and air filters are you using?
| drees | 06-12-2003 04:04 AM |
No racing on my oil change, but my last results were great at 5300mi on a mix of oil:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368621[/url]
Running 5w30 M1 now, will change at 7500mi.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368621[/url]
Running 5w30 M1 now, will change at 7500mi.
| xstar | 06-12-2003 09:19 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by scoobybrande [/i]
[B]xstar,
Great stuff man. the oil you sampled after Summit Point was still new! I think I've seen virgin analyses with higher wear numbers from contamination. ;) If your next analysis is as encouraging as your first, I might just switch to Mobil 1!
Incidentally, what oil and air filters are you using? [/B][/QUOTE]
I was surprised with my results as well. At least I know I don't have to spent THAT much getting new engine oil. Nonetheless, keep in mind that I only had 1500 miles total on that sample. The issue I have with Mobil1 is that I wonder if the oil pressure is not high enough for track use. I have a thread here ([URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=373884]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=373884[/URL]) to find an "optimal" oil pressure for the track. I'm surprised no track veterans have info to share here... :( Perhaps I'm asking the wrong question? :confused:
Anyhow, I use Subaru oem oil filter and intake filter.
Maybe I'll see ya one of these days at NHIS. :)
[B]xstar,
Great stuff man. the oil you sampled after Summit Point was still new! I think I've seen virgin analyses with higher wear numbers from contamination. ;) If your next analysis is as encouraging as your first, I might just switch to Mobil 1!
Incidentally, what oil and air filters are you using? [/B][/QUOTE]
I was surprised with my results as well. At least I know I don't have to spent THAT much getting new engine oil. Nonetheless, keep in mind that I only had 1500 miles total on that sample. The issue I have with Mobil1 is that I wonder if the oil pressure is not high enough for track use. I have a thread here ([URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=373884]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=373884[/URL]) to find an "optimal" oil pressure for the track. I'm surprised no track veterans have info to share here... :( Perhaps I'm asking the wrong question? :confused:
Anyhow, I use Subaru oem oil filter and intake filter.
Maybe I'll see ya one of these days at NHIS. :)
| drees | 06-12-2003 12:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by xstar [/i]
[B]The issue I have with Mobil1 is that I wonder if the oil pressure is not high enough for track use.[/B][/QUOTE]I would think that if oil pressure wasn't holding up, you would see much higher iron and lead numbers. As it is in your recent oil sample, you're seeing hardly any engine wear at all. Certainly not much more than normal given the reduced mileage in your sample.
I suspect that scoobybrande was seeing some detonation and very high oil temps in his engine which leads to the high lead and iron in his samples.
A lower viscosity oil will transfer more heat away from the hot spots than a higher viscosity oil, this could be critical in reducing the amount of det an engine sees. scoobybrande's results support this, but I don't know what type of racing and conditions each interval was under.
I also don't know where sticksville is, but running a 20w50 oil during cold starts isn't good either, especially if the weather gets near freezing.
A lot of people running 0w20 oils over at Bob's forum are getting the similar results as running Xw30 oils, so it shows that as long as the oil is of good quality, going thin doesn't appear to hurt.
[B]The issue I have with Mobil1 is that I wonder if the oil pressure is not high enough for track use.[/B][/QUOTE]I would think that if oil pressure wasn't holding up, you would see much higher iron and lead numbers. As it is in your recent oil sample, you're seeing hardly any engine wear at all. Certainly not much more than normal given the reduced mileage in your sample.
I suspect that scoobybrande was seeing some detonation and very high oil temps in his engine which leads to the high lead and iron in his samples.
A lower viscosity oil will transfer more heat away from the hot spots than a higher viscosity oil, this could be critical in reducing the amount of det an engine sees. scoobybrande's results support this, but I don't know what type of racing and conditions each interval was under.
I also don't know where sticksville is, but running a 20w50 oil during cold starts isn't good either, especially if the weather gets near freezing.
A lot of people running 0w20 oils over at Bob's forum are getting the similar results as running Xw30 oils, so it shows that as long as the oil is of good quality, going thin doesn't appear to hurt.
| scoobybrande | 06-12-2003 10:47 PM |
Sad news- I sold my WRX.:(
It's going to be a while before I'll be contributing to this experiment, but I hope others continue to do so!
It's going to be a while before I'll be contributing to this experiment, but I hope others continue to do so!
| Ru fan | 06-13-2003 06:11 PM |
WOW!!! Now this is a great thread! So refreshing to see people going beyond what kind of rims look the best, or which springs "drop" the most. My hat is off to the people posting in this thread. After the next track day, I will save a sample, and post my results. The oil will most likely be Mobil 1 5w-30, or maybe 10w-30.
Later,
Seth E. :alien:
Later,
Seth E. :alien:
| BIGSKYWRX | 06-13-2003 09:50 PM |
I'll being giving the 5W40 Motul a go here soon (maybe I should have stuck w/ my Walmart Mobil 1 5W30 for $18 five quart jug!
What do the samples run $?
Big Sky
What do the samples run $?
Big Sky
| drees | 06-13-2003 10:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BIGSKYWRX [/i]
[B]I'll being giving the 5W40 Motul a go here soon (maybe I should have stuck w/ my Walmart Mobil 1 5W30 for $18 five quart jug!
What do the samples run $?
Big Sky [/B][/QUOTE]Let us know how the 5W40 works out if you get the oil analyzed. I get my oil analyzed by [URL=http://www.blackstone-labs.com/]Blackstone Laboratories[/URL] and it runs $20 per analysis. Will be cheaper if you buy them in bulk. Will be $5 more if you have them read the TBN.
[B]I'll being giving the 5W40 Motul a go here soon (maybe I should have stuck w/ my Walmart Mobil 1 5W30 for $18 five quart jug!
What do the samples run $?
Big Sky [/B][/QUOTE]Let us know how the 5W40 works out if you get the oil analyzed. I get my oil analyzed by [URL=http://www.blackstone-labs.com/]Blackstone Laboratories[/URL] and it runs $20 per analysis. Will be cheaper if you buy them in bulk. Will be $5 more if you have them read the TBN.
| BIGSKYWRX | 06-13-2003 10:26 PM |
Danka. Will do.
Big Sky
Big Sky
| Alleggerita | 06-14-2003 12:45 PM |
I just have that nasty suspicion that 20/50W is to thick for the tight clearances in modern stock engines. Others have already pointed towards the possibility of inadequate lubrication during cold start and I suspect that this is what may be happening if you run a heavy oil in an engine designed with tight clearances.
| BIGSKYWRX | 06-16-2003 09:47 AM |
I ran Mobil 1 15W50 last summer, but won't be this summer. The 5W40 sounds promising.
| CoiloverKid | 06-16-2003 02:14 PM |
[IMG]http://www.johnnygreaves.com/neodec1.gif[/IMG]
| scoobybrande | 06-19-2003 01:01 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CoiloverKid [/i]
[B][IMG]http://www.johnnygreaves.com/neodec1.gif[/IMG] [/B][/QUOTE]
Look, this was supposed to be a serious and productive thread. If you have some productive things to say, say them. All I know about NEO is that it is an inferior Group 5 basestock, of the three commonly seen esters (PE, TMP, DE) it has the lowest oxidative stability.
[B][IMG]http://www.johnnygreaves.com/neodec1.gif[/IMG] [/B][/QUOTE]
Look, this was supposed to be a serious and productive thread. If you have some productive things to say, say them. All I know about NEO is that it is an inferior Group 5 basestock, of the three commonly seen esters (PE, TMP, DE) it has the lowest oxidative stability.
| GoodFinder | 06-20-2003 09:58 AM |
I'm putting an Accusump oil accumulator (from Canton Racing Products) on my WRX soon. This should address the "cold start" situations as well as help when I'm in the corners.
GoodFinder :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Alleggerita [/i]
[B]I just have that nasty suspicion that 20/50W is to thick for the tight clearances in modern stock engines. Others have already pointed towards the possibility of inadequate lubrication during cold start and I suspect that this is what may be happening if you run a heavy oil in an engine designed with tight clearances. [/B][/QUOTE]
GoodFinder :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Alleggerita [/i]
[B]I just have that nasty suspicion that 20/50W is to thick for the tight clearances in modern stock engines. Others have already pointed towards the possibility of inadequate lubrication during cold start and I suspect that this is what may be happening if you run a heavy oil in an engine designed with tight clearances. [/B][/QUOTE]
| xstar | 06-30-2003 07:24 PM |
Updated my sample result grid with 6/09/2003 sample. enjoy.
| BIGSKYWRX | 08-24-2003 10:33 PM |
I'm sending in a sample (actually two as they don't have Motul on "file") of Motul 300v 5W40 to Blackstone. Do I want to get TBN results as well? Will this provide worthwhile info or will the sample vs virgin tell me what I need to know?
Thanks
Big Sky
Thanks
Big Sky
| drees | 08-25-2003 09:38 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by xstar [/i]
[B]Updated my sample result grid with 6/09/2003 sample. enjoy. [/B][/QUOTE]Results look great, but with only 2300 miles on the sample (granted 300 of them on the track) I would expect results like that!
[B]Updated my sample result grid with 6/09/2003 sample. enjoy. [/B][/QUOTE]Results look great, but with only 2300 miles on the sample (granted 300 of them on the track) I would expect results like that!
| xstar | 08-26-2003 12:55 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BIGSKYWRX [/i]
[B]I'm sending in a sample (actually two as they don't have Motul on "file") of Motul 300v 5W40 to Blackstone. Do I want to get TBN results as well? Will this provide worthwhile info or will the sample vs virgin tell me what I need to know?
Thanks
Big Sky [/B][/QUOTE]
In my opinion, if you are only curious about your engine wear, then you will not need the TBN figures. However, if you want to know about how your oil wears down over time/conditions, then you'll want to know the TBN number.
Personally, I wanted to know often I need to change the oil I use based approximately how many track/street miles combined. That's the only reason I paid for the TBN.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by drees[/i]
[B]Results look great, but with only 2300 miles on the sample (granted 300 of them on the track) I would expect results like that![/B][/QUOTE]
I have another sample that is about to head out. ~5000 total miles and about 100 track miles.
[B]I'm sending in a sample (actually two as they don't have Motul on "file") of Motul 300v 5W40 to Blackstone. Do I want to get TBN results as well? Will this provide worthwhile info or will the sample vs virgin tell me what I need to know?
Thanks
Big Sky [/B][/QUOTE]
In my opinion, if you are only curious about your engine wear, then you will not need the TBN figures. However, if you want to know about how your oil wears down over time/conditions, then you'll want to know the TBN number.
Personally, I wanted to know often I need to change the oil I use based approximately how many track/street miles combined. That's the only reason I paid for the TBN.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by drees[/i]
[B]Results look great, but with only 2300 miles on the sample (granted 300 of them on the track) I would expect results like that![/B][/QUOTE]
I have another sample that is about to head out. ~5000 total miles and about 100 track miles.
| drees | 08-26-2003 01:01 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by xstar [/i]
[B]I have another sample that is about to head out. ~5000 total miles and about 100 track miles. [/B][/QUOTE]Cool, keep us posted on what comes back. I expect it to show similar numbers to your previous changes.
[B]I have another sample that is about to head out. ~5000 total miles and about 100 track miles. [/B][/QUOTE]Cool, keep us posted on what comes back. I expect it to show similar numbers to your previous changes.
| BIGSKYWRX | 08-30-2003 12:04 AM |
Motul 5W40 results
�
�
Got my results back from Blackstone (very quick I might add). This sample had 3400 miles on it 120 of them at PIR on a 100 degree day, two autox's (~ 10 runs each), and some marathon (500+ miles/day) driving at 100 degree temps- many over some of OR finest twisties.
They were not familiar w/ Motul, thus I sent them a virgin sample (no charge:D ). They commented that additive group shows diesel engine use properties- interesting. They also commented that the oil tested out at 40W at 210 F (which it should).
date 8/29/03
miles on unit 42000 (virgin oil)
miles on sample 3400 (virgin oil)
oil used Motul 5W40, Motul 5W40
SUS visc. @ 210F 66.3 73.1
TBN not tested
IRON 6 2
CHROMIUM 1 0
LEAD 1 0
COPPER 2 0
TIN 1 0
ALUMINUM 2 0
SILICON 9 9
BORON 27 0
SODIUM 4 2
MAGNESIUM 569 661
CALCIUM 2595 2642
BARIUM 0 0
PHOSPHORUS 1060 1153
ZINC 1250 1356
MOLYBDENUM 83 87
NICKEL 0 0
MANGANESE 1 1
SILVER 0 0
TITANIUM 0 0
POTASSIUM 0 0
They found no fuel, antifreeze or water. Flashpoints (don't know what bearing this has on anything?) were 395 virgin, 385 sample. They also found 0.4% insolubles- which they state should be below 0.6%- don't know if this a function of the oil filter?- running oe filter BTW.
Overall I'm prety impressed w/ some of the low #'s in the sample, be curious what some of the guys in the know think (oil analysis rookie = me).
Big Sky
They were not familiar w/ Motul, thus I sent them a virgin sample (no charge:D ). They commented that additive group shows diesel engine use properties- interesting. They also commented that the oil tested out at 40W at 210 F (which it should).
date 8/29/03
miles on unit 42000 (virgin oil)
miles on sample 3400 (virgin oil)
oil used Motul 5W40, Motul 5W40
SUS visc. @ 210F 66.3 73.1
TBN not tested
IRON 6 2
CHROMIUM 1 0
LEAD 1 0
COPPER 2 0
TIN 1 0
ALUMINUM 2 0
SILICON 9 9
BORON 27 0
SODIUM 4 2
MAGNESIUM 569 661
CALCIUM 2595 2642
BARIUM 0 0
PHOSPHORUS 1060 1153
ZINC 1250 1356
MOLYBDENUM 83 87
NICKEL 0 0
MANGANESE 1 1
SILVER 0 0
TITANIUM 0 0
POTASSIUM 0 0
They found no fuel, antifreeze or water. Flashpoints (don't know what bearing this has on anything?) were 395 virgin, 385 sample. They also found 0.4% insolubles- which they state should be below 0.6%- don't know if this a function of the oil filter?- running oe filter BTW.
Overall I'm prety impressed w/ some of the low #'s in the sample, be curious what some of the guys in the know think (oil analysis rookie = me).
Big Sky
| BIGSKYWRX | 09-02-2003 11:31 PM |
bump for someone who know more about oil analysis than me
| drees | 09-03-2003 03:33 AM |
I would say your results look perfect, but I'm just an amateur at reading these things. Post over at bobistheoilguy's forums to get a more feedback.
| mxm477 | 09-03-2003 10:02 AM |
I have worked with Cummins Engine and Lubrizol in setting ODI (oil drain intervals) for 11-liter automotive and marine applications.
I have had a good deal of conversations with a Dr. abraham there at Lubrizol.... to give some back ground on the oil industry...
Exxon, Shell, Pennzoil, Valvoline... they all get crude out of the ground... some is heavy crude from PA, Texas, some is intermediate crude Alaska, some is very light crude, Middle East.
From there, oil is refined and in the case of heavy oils, parifin is removed... now you have a base stock.
A company like Lubrizol comes in and places an 'add pack' that gets the oil to meet specifications.
The add pack is different for each base stock based on its origin... this is the Ph, B, Na, Ca, etc, etc... this is why one time an oil sample can show 2200 ppm boron, the next time almost none but with 1500 ppm magnesium...
The particular oil sent that day was chemically modified to meet specs and that shows in the results.
Why do racers trust Valvoline? Well, valvoline is generally made of a very light crude, and thus it takes less refining. So anyone that had heard stories of handfuls of sludge from Quaker State engines (in the 80s)... well that is PA crude had a lot of parifin... and if they did not get it refined properly (quality control, costs), then it showed up as build up in your engine.
Why do we buy foriegn oil if we have our own in the states... the oil is heavier and much most costly to pump and refine...
As diesel development engineer, both for Cummins, and at my current position... I have introduced hydrodynamic fluid bearings in rotating shaft applications... thing cam bushings, and main and rod bearings.
READ: your bearings are designed for a specific MOFT and MPOP... that is, minimum oil film thickness and minimum profile oil pressure.
Of the things that go into the design equations for fluid film bearings... oil viscosity is a major variable. Solid theoretical and empirical information on this can be found in Taylor, Charles, The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice. The M.I.T. Press, 1985. pg. 316-339
If you run thicker oil, you increase your wear by a square of the viscosity.
To those of you reporting >10 ppm lead, tin, copper... that is critical and is going to lead to premature bearing failure in my professional opinion. Not knowing the composition of Subaru bearing linings... I cannot say which bearings are damaged... in general, bearing linings such as 80-10-10 (80% cu, 10% Sn, 10% Pb) are used in auto applications becuase they are very cost effective... and very reliable except in the case of user abuse (not changing oil, too high viscsoity).
Industry standards for wear metals and generally no greater than 10 ppm (Fe, Al, Pb, Sn, Cu)! High iron.. your rings and block are taking a beating.
Also, your parasitic losses go up tremendouslt when pumping a heavier oil... you lose considerable hp and fuel consumption... this can be proven on a dyno... or just using common sense can be discerned.
On more item of great interest... saying you don't have a wear issue.. the parameter that breaks oil is TBN (total base number) in most auto applications. General industrial broken line is 2 to 3.5 mL/L TBN #. If you change your oil and have TBN of 8... well, you are throwing money away. There is NO technical merit in exchanging oil if TBN is about 3.5 and other parameters are okay. Refer to acticles in the Journal of Lubrication and the data will stand out... every other month some doe is reported showing duty cycle effect on oil breakdown.
Me... I run Mobil1 0W-30 and change it a 6k miles to be on the conservative side... my wifes CRV gets WalMart special and gets changed at 8k.
Lots of technical data exists in technical journals and machine design text books... so don't take my word for it.
Also, in keeping up with my infamous quote..."if anyone needs any help with ODI / oil analysis, just let me know"
Regards, Matt
I have had a good deal of conversations with a Dr. abraham there at Lubrizol.... to give some back ground on the oil industry...
Exxon, Shell, Pennzoil, Valvoline... they all get crude out of the ground... some is heavy crude from PA, Texas, some is intermediate crude Alaska, some is very light crude, Middle East.
From there, oil is refined and in the case of heavy oils, parifin is removed... now you have a base stock.
A company like Lubrizol comes in and places an 'add pack' that gets the oil to meet specifications.
The add pack is different for each base stock based on its origin... this is the Ph, B, Na, Ca, etc, etc... this is why one time an oil sample can show 2200 ppm boron, the next time almost none but with 1500 ppm magnesium...
The particular oil sent that day was chemically modified to meet specs and that shows in the results.
Why do racers trust Valvoline? Well, valvoline is generally made of a very light crude, and thus it takes less refining. So anyone that had heard stories of handfuls of sludge from Quaker State engines (in the 80s)... well that is PA crude had a lot of parifin... and if they did not get it refined properly (quality control, costs), then it showed up as build up in your engine.
Why do we buy foriegn oil if we have our own in the states... the oil is heavier and much most costly to pump and refine...
As diesel development engineer, both for Cummins, and at my current position... I have introduced hydrodynamic fluid bearings in rotating shaft applications... thing cam bushings, and main and rod bearings.
READ: your bearings are designed for a specific MOFT and MPOP... that is, minimum oil film thickness and minimum profile oil pressure.
Of the things that go into the design equations for fluid film bearings... oil viscosity is a major variable. Solid theoretical and empirical information on this can be found in Taylor, Charles, The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice. The M.I.T. Press, 1985. pg. 316-339
If you run thicker oil, you increase your wear by a square of the viscosity.
To those of you reporting >10 ppm lead, tin, copper... that is critical and is going to lead to premature bearing failure in my professional opinion. Not knowing the composition of Subaru bearing linings... I cannot say which bearings are damaged... in general, bearing linings such as 80-10-10 (80% cu, 10% Sn, 10% Pb) are used in auto applications becuase they are very cost effective... and very reliable except in the case of user abuse (not changing oil, too high viscsoity).
Industry standards for wear metals and generally no greater than 10 ppm (Fe, Al, Pb, Sn, Cu)! High iron.. your rings and block are taking a beating.
Also, your parasitic losses go up tremendouslt when pumping a heavier oil... you lose considerable hp and fuel consumption... this can be proven on a dyno... or just using common sense can be discerned.
On more item of great interest... saying you don't have a wear issue.. the parameter that breaks oil is TBN (total base number) in most auto applications. General industrial broken line is 2 to 3.5 mL/L TBN #. If you change your oil and have TBN of 8... well, you are throwing money away. There is NO technical merit in exchanging oil if TBN is about 3.5 and other parameters are okay. Refer to acticles in the Journal of Lubrication and the data will stand out... every other month some doe is reported showing duty cycle effect on oil breakdown.
Me... I run Mobil1 0W-30 and change it a 6k miles to be on the conservative side... my wifes CRV gets WalMart special and gets changed at 8k.
Lots of technical data exists in technical journals and machine design text books... so don't take my word for it.
Also, in keeping up with my infamous quote..."if anyone needs any help with ODI / oil analysis, just let me know"
Regards, Matt
| drees | 09-03-2003 11:45 AM |
Thanks for the info, Matt.
So Big Sky, basically what Matt saying is that your results look great (wear metals well below 10ppm), but you are probably throwing money away by swapping so early, but you don't know for sure without getting the TBN read.
Scoobybrande, on the other hand has a huge number of wear metals in his oil. This could be a results of the thicker oils he used (as Matt said that thicker oil will increase wear!) or something else critically wrong with the engine.
I find these these comments very interesting:
[QUOTE]If you run thicker oil, you increase your wear by a square of the viscosity.[/QUOTE]
(bearings in general are)[QUOTE]... very reliable except in the case of user abuse (not changing oil, too high viscsoity).[/QUOTE]
This runs counter to what many people believe around here: that a thicker oil will protect your engine better!
However, we've got oil analysis results here which indicate what Matt is saying is true! I hope that people take note and stay away from 40w+ oils and stick with the 30w oils that Subaru recommends.
So Big Sky, basically what Matt saying is that your results look great (wear metals well below 10ppm), but you are probably throwing money away by swapping so early, but you don't know for sure without getting the TBN read.
Scoobybrande, on the other hand has a huge number of wear metals in his oil. This could be a results of the thicker oils he used (as Matt said that thicker oil will increase wear!) or something else critically wrong with the engine.
I find these these comments very interesting:
[QUOTE]If you run thicker oil, you increase your wear by a square of the viscosity.[/QUOTE]
(bearings in general are)[QUOTE]... very reliable except in the case of user abuse (not changing oil, too high viscsoity).[/QUOTE]
This runs counter to what many people believe around here: that a thicker oil will protect your engine better!
However, we've got oil analysis results here which indicate what Matt is saying is true! I hope that people take note and stay away from 40w+ oils and stick with the 30w oils that Subaru recommends.
| mxm477 | 09-03-2003 03:07 PM |
Thanks for the back-up drees...
To learn more about wear, look for references on the "Sommerfeld variable"... anywho
At Cummins, we did a fuel leak validation test once with 50% oil - 50% #2 diesel fuel in the pan... want to know the results after 500 hours of running time at 2100 rpm / 1400 ft-# torque...
The engine looked perfect... it was virually impossible to discern break-in wear from long-term wear. Parts looked as though they'd been through a simple 6-minute break-in before shipping.
Know why you shouldn't do this to your car? ...:D
To learn more about wear, look for references on the "Sommerfeld variable"... anywho
At Cummins, we did a fuel leak validation test once with 50% oil - 50% #2 diesel fuel in the pan... want to know the results after 500 hours of running time at 2100 rpm / 1400 ft-# torque...
The engine looked perfect... it was virually impossible to discern break-in wear from long-term wear. Parts looked as though they'd been through a simple 6-minute break-in before shipping.
Know why you shouldn't do this to your car? ...:D
| drees | 09-03-2003 03:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mxm477 [/i]
[B]Know why you shouldn't do this to your car? ...:D [/B][/QUOTE]Those diesel engines run huge amounts of oil pressure?
[B]Know why you shouldn't do this to your car? ...:D [/B][/QUOTE]Those diesel engines run huge amounts of oil pressure?
| mxm477 | 09-03-2003 03:27 PM |
3-4 bar at full load is typical in a Cummins... same pressure I expect from a sbc (small block chevy) with the Melling hyV oil pump.
I imagine the Subaru hits at least 3 bar due to the turbo...
anyone have an oil pressure gage that they can comment on that... at what rpm does the oil p level out?
The engines I work with now have a 250 mm bore (10")... we run 7.2 bar, but a lot of us believe this is excessive....
It takes 90 hp at 1050 rpm to run our oil pump!!!
Carrying extra pressure costs hp... some drag racers run electric fuel pump, oil pump, fan, etc... to reduce parasitic losses... but then again, electricity isn't free either (that's a big technical debate).
Regards, Matt:cool:
I imagine the Subaru hits at least 3 bar due to the turbo...
anyone have an oil pressure gage that they can comment on that... at what rpm does the oil p level out?
The engines I work with now have a 250 mm bore (10")... we run 7.2 bar, but a lot of us believe this is excessive....
It takes 90 hp at 1050 rpm to run our oil pump!!!
Carrying extra pressure costs hp... some drag racers run electric fuel pump, oil pump, fan, etc... to reduce parasitic losses... but then again, electricity isn't free either (that's a big technical debate).
Regards, Matt:cool:
| aspera | 09-04-2003 12:29 AM |
How did I end up reading this thread?:rolleyes: Now I'm more confused.:lol:
Am I understanding correctly that using a think oil like 20W50 will cause wear damage, but a thin oil like 0W30 *might* also cause damage under severe use (racing)?
What is a good balance?
How thin of an oil can we get away with on our turbo cars?
Can we use 0W30 or 5W30 year 'round?
Am I understanding correctly that using a think oil like 20W50 will cause wear damage, but a thin oil like 0W30 *might* also cause damage under severe use (racing)?
What is a good balance?
How thin of an oil can we get away with on our turbo cars?
Can we use 0W30 or 5W30 year 'round?
| mxm477 | 09-04-2003 08:54 AM |
use the viscosity recommendation guide in the back of your WRX manual...
In general, most US climates will allow for 5w30 all year round.
I run 5w30 summer, 0w30 winter... I have high confidence this is okay. (erie, pa 70� mean summer)
In general, most US climates will allow for 5w30 all year round.
I run 5w30 summer, 0w30 winter... I have high confidence this is okay. (erie, pa 70� mean summer)
| GravelRash | 09-04-2003 09:22 PM |
The manual also lists heavier oils for hot weather (100F), desert driving, or severe conditions, trailer towing, etc., including:
10W-40
10W-50
20W-50
What are we to make of that, especially for activities like RallyX or Autocross on hot (85F+) days?
When you speak of higher wear, at the square of viscosity increase, I assume you mean "at viscosities above the optimum for the current engine and load conditions", correct? Otherwise we'd be using straight 0 weight all the time...:lol:
10W-40
10W-50
20W-50
What are we to make of that, especially for activities like RallyX or Autocross on hot (85F+) days?
When you speak of higher wear, at the square of viscosity increase, I assume you mean "at viscosities above the optimum for the current engine and load conditions", correct? Otherwise we'd be using straight 0 weight all the time...:lol:
| aspera | 09-04-2003 10:01 PM |
Would autoX cars benefit from a lighter oil, since they need to free up horsepower, and make short runs...or would a heavier oil be needed do to the high load and high heat?
| drees | 09-05-2003 01:11 AM |
Unfortunately, the manual assumes that you're running a regular dino oil which can't handle extreme temps very well.
A decent synthetic will handle high ambiant temps and heavy loads without breaking a sweat.
So if you're cheap and running dino oil, you may want to consider bumping up the viscosity to a 10w40 (personally, I would never run a 20w50, just too thick), otherwise stick with a good synthetic Xw30 oil.
A decent synthetic will handle high ambiant temps and heavy loads without breaking a sweat.
So if you're cheap and running dino oil, you may want to consider bumping up the viscosity to a 10w40 (personally, I would never run a 20w50, just too thick), otherwise stick with a good synthetic Xw30 oil.
| mxm477 | 09-05-2003 09:31 AM |
In Cali I could see running 10w40... San Deigo doesn't get much snow, right?
Here is Erie we get 90" a year.
:D
If you want to run 10w40 in the summer and 0/5w30 in winter... that's perfectly acceptable...
Being safe to the thin side in smarter than the thick side, believe me or not...
:)
Here is Erie we get 90" a year.
:D
If you want to run 10w40 in the summer and 0/5w30 in winter... that's perfectly acceptable...
Being safe to the thin side in smarter than the thick side, believe me or not...
:)
| BIGSKYWRX | 09-05-2003 08:12 PM |
Well I'm glad I ponied up for the testing- although it looks like I should have got the TBN as the Motul is expensive and running longer would help in that regard. Maybe I'll run this oil I've got in now till 5000 and then have a TBN run.
I think I'll stick w/ plan of 5W30 Mobil 1 for winter and when race season comes along next spring go back w/ the Motul 5W40.
Good thread.
Big Sky
I think I'll stick w/ plan of 5W30 Mobil 1 for winter and when race season comes along next spring go back w/ the Motul 5W40.
Good thread.
Big Sky
| scottjua | 12-12-2003 11:00 AM |
bump for updates???
| BIGSKYWRX | 12-12-2003 06:18 PM |
No real updates from me. I ran my second fill of Motul 4000 miles, but didn't send the results in-I'm guessing they would still look pretty good. I've since gone to my winter "blend"- Mobil 1 5W30. When spring (racing season) rolls around I'll be back to the Motul.
It would be nice to see some results from some other oils, weights.
Big Sky
It would be nice to see some results from some other oils, weights.
Big Sky
| Zuffy | 12-15-2003 08:15 PM |
[QUOTE]I've since gone to my winter "blend"- Mobil 1 5W30. When spring (racing season) rolls around I'll be back to the Motul.[/QUOTE]
Hey BIGSKYWRX, I was planning on using Mobil 1 5W30 in the winter too, and Motul 5W40 in the summer. I've heard that Motul gets a bit thick when it's cold. I have Motul in my car now and I notice a bit of a ticking sound when the engine hasn't warmed up completely. Hopefully that noise will go away with Mobil one and give maybe more cold start protection. Your thoughts or anyone else about good cold start performance for Mobil 1?
Hey BIGSKYWRX, I was planning on using Mobil 1 5W30 in the winter too, and Motul 5W40 in the summer. I've heard that Motul gets a bit thick when it's cold. I have Motul in my car now and I notice a bit of a ticking sound when the engine hasn't warmed up completely. Hopefully that noise will go away with Mobil one and give maybe more cold start protection. Your thoughts or anyone else about good cold start performance for Mobil 1?
| BIGSKYWRX | 12-15-2003 11:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Zuffy [/i]
[B]Hey BIGSKYWRX, I was planning on using Mobil 1 5W30 in the winter too, and Motul 5W40 in the summer. I've heard that Motul gets a bit thick when it's cold. I have Motul in my car now and I notice a bit of a ticking sound when the engine hasn't warmed up completely. Hopefully that noise will go away with Mobil one and give maybe more cold start protection. Your thoughts or anyone else about good cold start performance for Mobil 1? [/B][/QUOTE]
This is my 3rd winter w/ Mobil 1 5W30, no complaints whatsoever and it gets cold here- real cold.
The Motul is too damn expensive to run year round (ofcourse if I was tracking year round I'd be using it-maybe a move to Florida:D ).
Big Sky
[B]Hey BIGSKYWRX, I was planning on using Mobil 1 5W30 in the winter too, and Motul 5W40 in the summer. I've heard that Motul gets a bit thick when it's cold. I have Motul in my car now and I notice a bit of a ticking sound when the engine hasn't warmed up completely. Hopefully that noise will go away with Mobil one and give maybe more cold start protection. Your thoughts or anyone else about good cold start performance for Mobil 1? [/B][/QUOTE]
This is my 3rd winter w/ Mobil 1 5W30, no complaints whatsoever and it gets cold here- real cold.
The Motul is too damn expensive to run year round (ofcourse if I was tracking year round I'd be using it-maybe a move to Florida:D ).
Big Sky
| TurboFrog | 01-22-2004 12:22 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mxm477 [/i]
[B]Being safe to the thin side in smarter than the thick side, believe me or not...
:) [/B][/QUOTE]
Dear Matt,
I've learned a lot from reading your post. However, I do have a question for you. You talked about viscosity of oil and how that affects wear. But you did not mention about HTHS (high temperature high shear) of oil. To me, it would make a sense to choose higher HTHS for turbo and high reving racing engines. Usually, thicker viscosity oils provide high HTHS number.
For example, let's look at M1 0w-30 and 0w-40
0W-30: viscosity @ 100= 10.3 cSt, HTHS=2.99 mPa�s
0w-40: viscosity @ 100= 14.3 cSt, HTHS=3.6 mPa�s
Since HTHS of 0w-30 is less than 3.5, it doesn't meet ACEA A3/B3 rating, BMW Long Life, VW 502.00/505.00,503.01, and MB 229.3/229.5 requirements. Definately I'd choose 0w-40 over 0w-30 for my turbo engine and I know that 0w-40 meets and exceeds the manufacture requirement.
My observation is that European manufactures are leaning toward thick 0w-30 and/or thin 0w-40 with HTHS of 3.5 or higher. Good expamples would be Mobil 1 0w-40, MOTUL 8100 0w-40, and new Castrol 0w-30 (look for made in Germany label :lol: ) Only Ford and Honda are pushing for 5w-20. I believe Ford is doing this to increase fuel economy to meet CAFE requirement.
[B]Being safe to the thin side in smarter than the thick side, believe me or not...
:) [/B][/QUOTE]
Dear Matt,
I've learned a lot from reading your post. However, I do have a question for you. You talked about viscosity of oil and how that affects wear. But you did not mention about HTHS (high temperature high shear) of oil. To me, it would make a sense to choose higher HTHS for turbo and high reving racing engines. Usually, thicker viscosity oils provide high HTHS number.
For example, let's look at M1 0w-30 and 0w-40
0W-30: viscosity @ 100= 10.3 cSt, HTHS=2.99 mPa�s
0w-40: viscosity @ 100= 14.3 cSt, HTHS=3.6 mPa�s
Since HTHS of 0w-30 is less than 3.5, it doesn't meet ACEA A3/B3 rating, BMW Long Life, VW 502.00/505.00,503.01, and MB 229.3/229.5 requirements. Definately I'd choose 0w-40 over 0w-30 for my turbo engine and I know that 0w-40 meets and exceeds the manufacture requirement.
My observation is that European manufactures are leaning toward thick 0w-30 and/or thin 0w-40 with HTHS of 3.5 or higher. Good expamples would be Mobil 1 0w-40, MOTUL 8100 0w-40, and new Castrol 0w-30 (look for made in Germany label :lol: ) Only Ford and Honda are pushing for 5w-20. I believe Ford is doing this to increase fuel economy to meet CAFE requirement.
| drees | 01-22-2004 02:48 AM |
Interesting info, TurboFrog. Since Amsoil lists their HTHS numbers in an easy to reach spot, I thought I'd post them here as well as more M1 values
[CODE]Series 2000 0W-30 3.4
Series 2000 20W-50 5.1
SAE 5W-30 >3.5
SAE 10W-30 >3.5
SAE 10W-40 3.93
SAE 20W-50 4.9
M1 5W-30 3.08
M1 10W-30 3.17
M1 15W-50 5.11[/CODE]
[CODE]Series 2000 0W-30 3.4
Series 2000 20W-50 5.1
SAE 5W-30 >3.5
SAE 10W-30 >3.5
SAE 10W-40 3.93
SAE 20W-50 4.9
M1 5W-30 3.08
M1 10W-30 3.17
M1 15W-50 5.11[/CODE]
| BIGSKYWRX | 01-22-2004 10:02 AM |
I'm going to be looking for some M1 0W40 for winter- that looks pretty good. I checked into the Motul 0W40 and while I'm sure it's is as every bit of good- the cost is very high. Too high to justify for my winter needs- no racing around here.
Summer (spring) will see Motul V300 5W40 again.
Big Sky
Summer (spring) will see Motul V300 5W40 again.
Big Sky
| Rovah | 01-22-2004 01:17 PM |
Thought I'd throw out some info(disclaimer: I'm the NE MOTUL distributor). MOTUL has a new 300V that surpasses the old in every respect. Instead of single ester formulation, it's a double ester product.
It won't be here for a bit, and will likely be quite a bit more expensive than the current 300V.
BTW, the Subaru WRC team runs 300V 5W40 in their rally cars in ALL rallies on the WRC.
Bigsky and others, the 0W MOTUL products all feature ester technology and are priced a bit higher than the 8100 series oils because of that.
Cheers! John
It won't be here for a bit, and will likely be quite a bit more expensive than the current 300V.
BTW, the Subaru WRC team runs 300V 5W40 in their rally cars in ALL rallies on the WRC.
Bigsky and others, the 0W MOTUL products all feature ester technology and are priced a bit higher than the 8100 series oils because of that.
Cheers! John
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