| funsti | 02-13-2006 03:28 PM |
Rear differential outrigger bushings: are they street touring legal?
�
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I am speaking of the Whiteline KSB751, the ones from SuperPro or other similar products.
These bushings do not replace the stock rear diff bushings; they add to them by filling the gap above and below them.
[QUOTE="2006_solo_rules.pdf"]D. Differential mount bushings may be replaced, but must attach in the factory location(s) without additional modification or changes. Differential position may not be changed. The amount of metal in a replacement bushing may not be increased relative to the amount of metal found in a standard bushing for the particular application. Solid metal bushings are specifically prohibited.[/QUOTE]
I just installed these and I can say without a doubt that they keep more tire in contact with the ground when taking a turn over a bump. Please tell me I can keep them!
-JWM
These bushings do not replace the stock rear diff bushings; they add to them by filling the gap above and below them.
[QUOTE="2006_solo_rules.pdf"]D. Differential mount bushings may be replaced, but must attach in the factory location(s) without additional modification or changes. Differential position may not be changed. The amount of metal in a replacement bushing may not be increased relative to the amount of metal found in a standard bushing for the particular application. Solid metal bushings are specifically prohibited.[/QUOTE]
I just installed these and I can say without a doubt that they keep more tire in contact with the ground when taking a turn over a bump. Please tell me I can keep them!
-JWM
| Turn in Concepts | 02-13-2006 04:00 PM |
I have never heard of anyone complaining about them before. I know many have used them. Not to toot my own horn, but [URL=http://turninconcepts.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_9_7_20&products_id=17][B]these[/B][/URL] are also legal in ST classes and further help the cause.
Tony
Tony
| leecea | 02-13-2006 04:06 PM |
Essentially you've put in a bushing that just happens to be in two pieces. As long as it doesn't contain additional metal, it seems to match the rules.
| zzyzx | 02-13-2006 04:09 PM |
Do the outrigger bushings constutite differential bushings? What about the bushings that are directly behind the rear diff?
I'd be careful. I've been bitten by the solo rules nazi dog before. ;)
I'd be careful. I've been bitten by the solo rules nazi dog before. ;)
| 10th Warrior | 02-13-2006 04:24 PM |
i don't know the part you're referencing, but just from what is posted here, how can they attach in the factory location if the factory bushing is still there? the rule doesn't allow for the addition of bushings.
| ChrisW | 02-13-2006 04:31 PM |
you could loosely associate these bushing with subframe bushings. But the rear diff carrier is not exactly a subframe assembly or is it?
If you can't convince the SEB that these are subframe bushings, then I guess you are SOL...
If you can't convince the SEB that these are subframe bushings, then I guess you are SOL...
| funsti | 02-13-2006 04:33 PM |
Ok so those TurnInConcepts rear diff bushings actually replace the stock bushings right? Your website says you don't need a press to install them because they are two pieces. Don't you still need a press to remove the stock bushings?
I can see your [url=http://turninconcepts.com/product_info.php?products_id=24]TiC klunk killer[/url] kit comes with the KartBoy versions of the bushings I'm talking about.
10th Warrior: these outrigger bushings just fill a gap that is present between two pieces of metal which the rear diff is otherwise allowed to float between.
So your TiC rear diff bushings would reduce lateral movement while the outrigger bushings reduce vertical movement?
-JWM
I can see your [url=http://turninconcepts.com/product_info.php?products_id=24]TiC klunk killer[/url] kit comes with the KartBoy versions of the bushings I'm talking about.
10th Warrior: these outrigger bushings just fill a gap that is present between two pieces of metal which the rear diff is otherwise allowed to float between.
So your TiC rear diff bushings would reduce lateral movement while the outrigger bushings reduce vertical movement?
-JWM
| leecea | 02-13-2006 04:37 PM |
My $0.02...
According to the service manual, these are all part of the differential mounting system - it is quite a complex system and not just the two rubber bushings that attach the diff to the rear crossmember, so I think they should be considered diff mount bushings.
The diagram wording is such that it shows them as attaching the diff front member to the diff mount bracket.
According to the service manual, these are all part of the differential mounting system - it is quite a complex system and not just the two rubber bushings that attach the diff to the rear crossmember, so I think they should be considered diff mount bushings.
The diagram wording is such that it shows them as attaching the diff front member to the diff mount bracket.
| funsti | 02-13-2006 04:38 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisW]you could loosely associate these bushing with subframe bushings. But the rear diff carrier is not exactly a subframe assembly or is it?
If you can't convince the SEB that these are subframe bushings, then I guess you are SOL...[/QUOTE]
Well the name of the KartBoy product is 'Rear Subframe Outrigger Bushings' so maybe we are good then!
-JWM
If you can't convince the SEB that these are subframe bushings, then I guess you are SOL...[/QUOTE]
Well the name of the KartBoy product is 'Rear Subframe Outrigger Bushings' so maybe we are good then!
-JWM
| ej25power | 02-13-2006 04:44 PM |
+1 for the TIC bushings! Easy to install and very noticeable difference:)
From what I read in that part of the rules, it looks fine to me? It says you can replace them as long as they fit in the stock location without modification.
From what I read in that part of the rules, it looks fine to me? It says you can replace them as long as they fit in the stock location without modification.
| funsti | 02-13-2006 05:05 PM |
Well the actual [url=http://turninconcepts.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_9_7_20&products_id=17]rear diff bushings[/url] are without any shadow of a doubt legal. But [url=http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17472]these[/url] are the ones I'm worried about.
-JWM
-JWM
| leecea | 02-13-2006 05:18 PM |
Click on the diagram in the link you attached and refer back to my earlier post. There are three sets of bushings shown in the diagram of the differential mounting system. Why would one set be singled out as THE differential bushings?
Also, wouldn't the FSM be the official source for part names, so the references to subframes and outrigers that are on other sites are surely less relevant than the way the FSM characterizes the part.
Also, wouldn't the FSM be the official source for part names, so the references to subframes and outrigers that are on other sites are surely less relevant than the way the FSM characterizes the part.
| Turn in Concepts | 02-13-2006 05:42 PM |
[QUOTE=funsti]Ok so those TurnInConcepts rear diff bushings actually replace the stock bushings right? Your website says you don't need a press to install them because they are two pieces. Don't you still need a press to remove the stock bushings?
-JWM[/QUOTE]
No you don't. Just some muscle applied in the right manner. Check out the link at the bottom of our literary genius description on how to install them.
-Clint
-JWM[/QUOTE]
No you don't. Just some muscle applied in the right manner. Check out the link at the bottom of our literary genius description on how to install them.
-Clint
| Turn in Concepts | 02-13-2006 05:43 PM |
[QUOTE=funsti]Well the name of the KartBoy product is 'Rear Subframe Outrigger Bushings' so maybe we are good then!
-JWM[/QUOTE]
[B]Please note[/B] - we're the only ones that call them outrigger bushings. We do this to keep from people confusing them with our mount bushings.
-Clitn
-JWM[/QUOTE]
[B]Please note[/B] - we're the only ones that call them outrigger bushings. We do this to keep from people confusing them with our mount bushings.
-Clitn
| 10th Warrior | 02-13-2006 05:49 PM |
[quote]these outrigger bushings just fill a gap that is present between two pieces of metal which the rear diff is otherwise allowed to float between.[/quote]
i see no allowance for additional bushings, only replacing what came from the factory.
Also, since they fill in the area where the diff moves around from the factory, one *could* argue that they violate the diff position clause. not saying i would necissarily agree with that interpretation, just throwing it out as a possiblity.
i see no allowance for additional bushings, only replacing what came from the factory.
Also, since they fill in the area where the diff moves around from the factory, one *could* argue that they violate the diff position clause. not saying i would necissarily agree with that interpretation, just throwing it out as a possiblity.
| afpdl | 02-14-2006 01:39 AM |
[QUOTE=funsti]Well the actual [url=http://turninconcepts.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_9_7_20&products_id=17]rear diff bushings[/url] are without any shadow of a doubt legal.
-JWM[/QUOTE]
Sure about that?
From their product description:
[quote]You could get the entire STi branded part with Group N bushings, but the metal portion of the mount is the exact same as what you already have on your car. Why would you pay extra to get a part that you already have?
[/quote]
-JWM[/QUOTE]
Sure about that?
From their product description:
[quote]You could get the entire STi branded part with Group N bushings, but the metal portion of the mount is the exact same as what you already have on your car. Why would you pay extra to get a part that you already have?
[/quote]
| ChrisL2 | 02-14-2006 01:56 AM |
That description is interesting, because looking at the pictures, it looks the metal amount is either the same, or less. Guess we need more verification.
| funsti | 02-14-2006 09:45 AM |
Yea it looks like less metal content to me, which is fine by the rules.
I'm sure the upgraded diff bushings are nice but it's my precious 'outrigger'/'subframe' bushings I'm concerned with right now:
[img]http://turninconcepts.com/images/kb_outrigger_02.jpg[/img]
The small diameter pieces are not used on recent model Imprezas; I think they are for the GC.
-JWM
I'm sure the upgraded diff bushings are nice but it's my precious 'outrigger'/'subframe' bushings I'm concerned with right now:
[img]http://turninconcepts.com/images/kb_outrigger_02.jpg[/img]
The small diameter pieces are not used on recent model Imprezas; I think they are for the GC.
-JWM
| Turn in Concepts | 02-14-2006 10:08 AM |
[QUOTE=ChrisL2]That description is interesting, because looking at the pictures, it looks the metal amount is either the same, or less. Guess we need more verification.[/QUOTE]
The metal bracket is the same. The actual amount of metal used as part of the bushing is less. This is common of all aftermarket rear diff bushings. We use stiffer material and fill in the voids, but with a thinner sleeve.
Tony
The metal bracket is the same. The actual amount of metal used as part of the bushing is less. This is common of all aftermarket rear diff bushings. We use stiffer material and fill in the voids, but with a thinner sleeve.
Tony
| KSwrxWAGON | 02-14-2006 10:10 AM |
Based on the wording of the rules, the only sticky part is that the rules don't say you can "add" bushings. The "outrigger" bushing works as one unit in the stock position. Yes, the overall size of the bushings are different. Other bushings come in halves to make it easy on the garage mechanic...this is just three parts. Filling in the gaps that were there from the factory isn't against rule 14.8.B. If these are too tall, then they will be illegal since they modify the position of the differential like 10th Warrior stated.
Have you done any measurements before and after? I've got a set of these to install. I'll check this and get back to you guys. If the distance between the body and bracket increase, these will most likely have a tough time NOT being illegal.
Have you done any measurements before and after? I've got a set of these to install. I'll check this and get back to you guys. If the distance between the body and bracket increase, these will most likely have a tough time NOT being illegal.
| DrBiggly | 02-14-2006 10:33 AM |
Bah, I've had these in for a year as they became legal as of January '05. They're for the rear diff subframe. There weren't a terrible lot of gaps there to start with. I simply replaced a piece of bushing with these things sandwiched in there and then tightened it down back to factory depth and voila; done.
The biggest thing I noticed is the increased noise upon decel; it makes the rear diff quite a bit more noticeable in the WRX. :)
-Biggly
The biggest thing I noticed is the increased noise upon decel; it makes the rear diff quite a bit more noticeable in the WRX. :)
-Biggly
| funsti | 02-14-2006 10:37 AM |
Ok so if the bushings don't change the static position of the diff at rest but only its dynamic movement under changing loads then we are ok? :devil:
Hmm, I like your thinking: if it doesn't exceed the sizes of the gaps then it is legal. I don't know the answer. I do know that these things compress slightly when you tighten everything back down. It only makes sense, you don't want these things flopping around all over the place.
Awaiting your measurements with trepidation KSwrxWAGON. I may do some measuring of my own tonight as well.
-JWM
Hmm, I like your thinking: if it doesn't exceed the sizes of the gaps then it is legal. I don't know the answer. I do know that these things compress slightly when you tighten everything back down. It only makes sense, you don't want these things flopping around all over the place.
Awaiting your measurements with trepidation KSwrxWAGON. I may do some measuring of my own tonight as well.
-JWM
| funsti | 02-14-2006 10:47 AM |
Biggly! Heyyyy! Just what I wanted to hear! Case closed, it's legal ;). Do you have anything more to add to further assuage my fears?
I'm telling ya man I've noticed a really, really big improvement in rear end stability when going over bumps. I mean, the gaps present from the factory are roughly the thicknesses of those poly rings we're talking about. I'm not sure but it looks like almost a centimeter on top and maybe 4mm on bottom.
-JWM
I'm telling ya man I've noticed a really, really big improvement in rear end stability when going over bumps. I mean, the gaps present from the factory are roughly the thicknesses of those poly rings we're talking about. I'm not sure but it looks like almost a centimeter on top and maybe 4mm on bottom.
-JWM
| Turn in Concepts | 02-14-2006 11:15 AM |
[QUOTE=funsti]Yea it looks like less metal content to me, which is fine by the rules.
I'm sure the upgraded diff bushings are nice but it's my precious 'outrigger'/'subframe' bushings I'm concerned with right now:
[img]http://turninconcepts.com/images/kb_outrigger_02.jpg[/img]
The small diameter pieces are not used on recent model Imprezas; I think they are for the GC.
-JWM[/QUOTE]
Actually, it all depends on the install technique that you use. If you use the Kartboy/Peaty technique then the large/thick one goes on top to fill the gap, and the small/thick one goes on the buttom and fits "into" a void in the stock bushing.
I'm sure the upgraded diff bushings are nice but it's my precious 'outrigger'/'subframe' bushings I'm concerned with right now:
[img]http://turninconcepts.com/images/kb_outrigger_02.jpg[/img]
The small diameter pieces are not used on recent model Imprezas; I think they are for the GC.
-JWM[/QUOTE]
Actually, it all depends on the install technique that you use. If you use the Kartboy/Peaty technique then the large/thick one goes on top to fill the gap, and the small/thick one goes on the buttom and fits "into" a void in the stock bushing.
| DrBiggly | 02-14-2006 11:30 AM |
[QUOTE=funsti]Biggly! Heyyyy! Just what I wanted to hear! Case closed, it's legal ;). Do you have anything more to add to further assuage my fears?
I'm telling ya man I've noticed a really, really big improvement in rear end stability when going over bumps. I mean, the gaps present from the factory are roughly the thicknesses of those poly rings we're talking about. I'm not sure but it looks like almost a centimeter on top and maybe 4mm on bottom.
-JWM[/QUOTE]
I don't recall really any gap on mine; just that when I tightened it down with these bushings that things were tightened up a bit once I got the bolt tightened back down to factory length. I didn't notice a huge improvement in how the rear of the car reacted; it just felt a touch better on launching (less hopping, and no that's not a Tom-gonna-break-my-tranny reference.) Granted, there are definite differences in our drivetrains. :)
-Biggly
I'm telling ya man I've noticed a really, really big improvement in rear end stability when going over bumps. I mean, the gaps present from the factory are roughly the thicknesses of those poly rings we're talking about. I'm not sure but it looks like almost a centimeter on top and maybe 4mm on bottom.
-JWM[/QUOTE]
I don't recall really any gap on mine; just that when I tightened it down with these bushings that things were tightened up a bit once I got the bolt tightened back down to factory length. I didn't notice a huge improvement in how the rear of the car reacted; it just felt a touch better on launching (less hopping, and no that's not a Tom-gonna-break-my-tranny reference.) Granted, there are definite differences in our drivetrains. :)
-Biggly
| [email�protected] | 02-14-2006 11:56 AM |
We went with a black color. it will be hard to see them when installed ;)
Tom
Tom
| jamesohoh7 | 02-14-2006 05:47 PM |
[QUOTE=Turn in Concepts]The metal bracket is the same. The actual amount of metal used as part of the bushing is less. This is common of all aftermarket rear diff bushings. We use stiffer material and fill in the voids, but with a thinner sleeve.
Tony[/QUOTE]
O.k., so just to make sure... b/c I'm really stupid this way :lol: ... the bushings being installed here:
[url]http://turninconcepts.com/instructions/subaru/rear_diff_mount_bushings/index.html[/url]
...are 'good to go' for ST classes in SCCA? Just looking at the pics of the old one in that link, it does appear that the new ones have less metal and so would appear to not violate the rules... but I am not a rules nazi, and so I defer to anyone who can state with 100% certainty :)
I have started to get the 'accel/hard-shift' clunk from the diff area of my STi, and it's ticking me off something fierce. If these bushings cure that, I am all over them! :)
Not talking about 'outrigger' bushing-void-fillers... just the ones in my link above.
Of course, if the outrigger ones wind up also being verified as 'ST legal', I may do them as well. Anything to alleviate the clunk... that is still ST legal.
Hell, who knows, if it takes a non-ST Legal mod, I may do it and just move to SM anyway... I seriously hate this funky clunk. The first time I heard it on a 1-2 shift, I thought I dropped the driveshaft or an axle!
Tony[/QUOTE]
O.k., so just to make sure... b/c I'm really stupid this way :lol: ... the bushings being installed here:
[url]http://turninconcepts.com/instructions/subaru/rear_diff_mount_bushings/index.html[/url]
...are 'good to go' for ST classes in SCCA? Just looking at the pics of the old one in that link, it does appear that the new ones have less metal and so would appear to not violate the rules... but I am not a rules nazi, and so I defer to anyone who can state with 100% certainty :)
I have started to get the 'accel/hard-shift' clunk from the diff area of my STi, and it's ticking me off something fierce. If these bushings cure that, I am all over them! :)
Not talking about 'outrigger' bushing-void-fillers... just the ones in my link above.
Of course, if the outrigger ones wind up also being verified as 'ST legal', I may do them as well. Anything to alleviate the clunk... that is still ST legal.
Hell, who knows, if it takes a non-ST Legal mod, I may do it and just move to SM anyway... I seriously hate this funky clunk. The first time I heard it on a 1-2 shift, I thought I dropped the driveshaft or an axle!
| KSwrxWAGON | 03-01-2006 01:08 PM |
I finally installed the "outrigger" bushings last night and made the measurements! I replaced the bolts and torqued them to factory specs prior to taking measurements:
I measured the gap between the chassis and the lower lip of the "differential bushing mounting plate" (that's how it appears in the service manuals).
Before: 2.75"
After: 3.125"
I really don't know how this mount will effect the overall geometry of the rear differential or suspension. I don't think it drops the differential itself, either, since there's other bolt points holding it in place.
What does everyone think about the legality now?
I measured the gap between the chassis and the lower lip of the "differential bushing mounting plate" (that's how it appears in the service manuals).
Before: 2.75"
After: 3.125"
I really don't know how this mount will effect the overall geometry of the rear differential or suspension. I don't think it drops the differential itself, either, since there's other bolt points holding it in place.
What does everyone think about the legality now?
| omahasubaru | 03-02-2006 03:46 PM |
IMHO.
Rear diff (bushings behind diff) are legal.
Outrigger bushings aren't.
That is how I read the rules.
Rear diff (bushings behind diff) are legal.
Outrigger bushings aren't.
That is how I read the rules.
| KSwrxWAGON | 03-02-2006 04:34 PM |
How so, Omaha? I agree the actual differential bushings are legal without a doubt. However, what part of the rules do you think makes the outrigger bushing illegal? I'm not smart enough to understand how the adjusted angle of the differential mount, er outrigger, can change the peformance of the differential (if at all). The increased spacing caused by the bushing is definitely questionable at best.
Do we have any physics-minded folks that want to shed some light on my dim skull?
Do we have any physics-minded folks that want to shed some light on my dim skull?
| sciolist | 03-02-2006 06:43 PM |
[I]B. Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any
materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location.
Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing the
amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material
may not be increased. This does not authorize a change in type
of bushing (for example ball and socket replacing a cylindrical
bushing), or use of a bushing with an angled hole whose direction
differs from that of the original bushing. If the Stock bushing
accommodated multi-axis motion via compliance of the
component material(s), the replacement bushing may not be
changed to accommodate such motion via a change in bushing
type, for example to a spherical bearing or similar component
involving internal moving parts. Pins or keys may be used to
prevent the rotation of alternate bushings, but may serve no
other purpose than that of retaining the bushing in the desired
position.[/I]
The outrigger inserts do not add metal, they are the same structural type of bushing and they do not change the pivot axis. I would certainly say that they comply with the *spirit* of the rules.
materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location.
Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing the
amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material
may not be increased. This does not authorize a change in type
of bushing (for example ball and socket replacing a cylindrical
bushing), or use of a bushing with an angled hole whose direction
differs from that of the original bushing. If the Stock bushing
accommodated multi-axis motion via compliance of the
component material(s), the replacement bushing may not be
changed to accommodate such motion via a change in bushing
type, for example to a spherical bearing or similar component
involving internal moving parts. Pins or keys may be used to
prevent the rotation of alternate bushings, but may serve no
other purpose than that of retaining the bushing in the desired
position.[/I]
The outrigger inserts do not add metal, they are the same structural type of bushing and they do not change the pivot axis. I would certainly say that they comply with the *spirit* of the rules.
| mccanixx | 03-02-2006 06:53 PM |
I agree they should be legal.
devils advocate, however says,
They do not "replace" anything, nor do they go in any "original" bushing location.
devils advocate, however says,
They do not "replace" anything, nor do they go in any "original" bushing location.
| sciolist | 03-02-2006 07:09 PM |
Well, in conjunction with the OEM bushings, they still constitute a bushing... let's call it a "composite bushing". Is it legal to take out the OEM bushing, cut it in half and replace it? Yes. Is it legal to use bushings with a different shape that otherwise comply with the rules? Yes.
I agree with the "devil's advocate" posture to the extent that the rules do not specifically say you can add additional legal bushing material, but look at what the rules are telling you not to do. A fairly clear picture of intent emerges.
If you want to be 100% sure, email a concise description of the situation to Doug Gill and see if you can get a written determination to tuck in your log book.
I agree with the "devil's advocate" posture to the extent that the rules do not specifically say you can add additional legal bushing material, but look at what the rules are telling you not to do. A fairly clear picture of intent emerges.
If you want to be 100% sure, email a concise description of the situation to Doug Gill and see if you can get a written determination to tuck in your log book.
| omahasubaru | 03-07-2006 02:43 PM |
My comments are based on two things.
1) They really aren't a differential or suspension bushing IMHO as they are bushings for a subframe that supports the rear diff, not an actually bushing that supports the rear diff directly, but rather indirectly.
2) You aren't replacing the bushing (which is legal) you are adding bushing to the stock one. It clearly says you can replace it, but doesn't say you can add 'spacer bushings' to stock ones.
Run them. I doubt anyone will protest you. It's less of a concern if you're not trophying at national events, however just know that it could be a protest item, even if Doug Gill says it's ok... as each protest is interpreted by their respective commity (in this cast the STAC). One persons 'definition' may not be the same as the next and what ever they agree upon will be the decision.
99% of the time if anyone runs them you will be fine, but as I read the rules (again this is my own 'definition') they aren't legal.
1) They really aren't a differential or suspension bushing IMHO as they are bushings for a subframe that supports the rear diff, not an actually bushing that supports the rear diff directly, but rather indirectly.
2) You aren't replacing the bushing (which is legal) you are adding bushing to the stock one. It clearly says you can replace it, but doesn't say you can add 'spacer bushings' to stock ones.
Run them. I doubt anyone will protest you. It's less of a concern if you're not trophying at national events, however just know that it could be a protest item, even if Doug Gill says it's ok... as each protest is interpreted by their respective commity (in this cast the STAC). One persons 'definition' may not be the same as the next and what ever they agree upon will be the decision.
99% of the time if anyone runs them you will be fine, but as I read the rules (again this is my own 'definition') they aren't legal.
| omahasubaru | 03-07-2006 04:56 PM |
I took some time to really dig in and re-read the STS/STX rules and saw the note of subframe bushings being legal. I hit the FSM and the outrigger assmebly could be considered a 'sub frame'.
This effectively negates my #1 point. But I still question if adding bushing spacers to the stock bushing within the stock mounting points & hardware is legal. My take as to how they are written is that it isn't. REPLACEMENT is legal in stock location with stock hardware, it says nothing about adding bushings/spacers to existing bushings.
Just my un-offical $0.02
This effectively negates my #1 point. But I still question if adding bushing spacers to the stock bushing within the stock mounting points & hardware is legal. My take as to how they are written is that it isn't. REPLACEMENT is legal in stock location with stock hardware, it says nothing about adding bushings/spacers to existing bushings.
Just my un-offical $0.02
| KSwrxWAGON | 03-07-2006 05:33 PM |
[QUOTE=omahasubaru]I still question if adding bushing spacers to the stock bushing within the stock mounting points & hardware is legal. My take as to how they are written is that it isn't. REPLACEMENT is legal in stock location with stock hardware, it says nothing about adding bushings/spacers to existing bushings.[/QUOTE]
If it's unofficial money, here's my $0.02: As long as the replacement bushing doesn't have an increased volume of metal, it is legal. The overall size isn't limited by the rules as long as the replacement doesn't change the geometry of the suspension. The GEOMETRY is the true spirit of the rule's limitation. Some have mentioned 2-piece replacements that were originally 1-piece bushings and want to apply that to ADDING two pieces to the original.
If it came down to it, the stock bushing could be replaced entirely with one bushing that takes up the same space as the Kartboy example. That would do the same thing and seems like everyone would agree this is legal. If this is legal, then it should also be legal as it is, right?
By now you can tell why I am not an attorney! :lol: Anyway, I installed them in my car so you can protest me at the next Divisional event.
If it's unofficial money, here's my $0.02: As long as the replacement bushing doesn't have an increased volume of metal, it is legal. The overall size isn't limited by the rules as long as the replacement doesn't change the geometry of the suspension. The GEOMETRY is the true spirit of the rule's limitation. Some have mentioned 2-piece replacements that were originally 1-piece bushings and want to apply that to ADDING two pieces to the original.
If it came down to it, the stock bushing could be replaced entirely with one bushing that takes up the same space as the Kartboy example. That would do the same thing and seems like everyone would agree this is legal. If this is legal, then it should also be legal as it is, right?
By now you can tell why I am not an attorney! :lol: Anyway, I installed them in my car so you can protest me at the next Divisional event.
| ChrisW | 03-07-2006 05:44 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist][i]B. Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any[/i]
[i]materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location.[/i]
[i]Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing the[/i]
[i]amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material[/i]
[i]may not be increased. This does not authorize a change in type[/i]
[i]of bushing (for example ball and socket replacing a cylindrical[/i]
[i]bushing), or use of a bushing with an angled hole whose direction[/i]
[i]differs from that of the original bushing. If the Stock bushing[/i]
[i]accommodated multi-axis motion via compliance of the[/i]
[i]component material(s), the replacement bushing may not be[/i]
[i]changed to accommodate such motion via a change in bushing[/i]
[i]type, for example to a spherical bearing or similar component[/i]
[i]involving internal moving parts. Pins or keys may be used to[/i]
[i]prevent the rotation of alternate bushings, but may serve no[/i]
[i]other purpose than that of retaining the bushing in the desired[/i]
[i]position.[/i]
The outrigger inserts do not add metal, they are the same structural type of bushing and they do not change the pivot axis. I would certainly say that they comply with the *spirit* of the rules.[/QUOTE]
outrigger bushing are not part of the suspension. this rule does not apply here.
[i]materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location.[/i]
[i]Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing the[/i]
[i]amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material[/i]
[i]may not be increased. This does not authorize a change in type[/i]
[i]of bushing (for example ball and socket replacing a cylindrical[/i]
[i]bushing), or use of a bushing with an angled hole whose direction[/i]
[i]differs from that of the original bushing. If the Stock bushing[/i]
[i]accommodated multi-axis motion via compliance of the[/i]
[i]component material(s), the replacement bushing may not be[/i]
[i]changed to accommodate such motion via a change in bushing[/i]
[i]type, for example to a spherical bearing or similar component[/i]
[i]involving internal moving parts. Pins or keys may be used to[/i]
[i]prevent the rotation of alternate bushings, but may serve no[/i]
[i]other purpose than that of retaining the bushing in the desired[/i]
[i]position.[/i]
The outrigger inserts do not add metal, they are the same structural type of bushing and they do not change the pivot axis. I would certainly say that they comply with the *spirit* of the rules.[/QUOTE]
outrigger bushing are not part of the suspension. this rule does not apply here.
| maxQ | 03-07-2006 06:02 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisW]outrigger bushing are not part of the suspension. this rule does not apply here.[/QUOTE]
This one does:
[i]"K. Subframe mount bushings may be replaced, but must attach in the factory location(s) without additional modification or changes. Subframe position may not be changed. The amount of metal..."[/i]
So if the "outrigger" bushings move the subframe as they seem to by the measurements earlier, I would say they are illegal.
Andy
This one does:
[i]"K. Subframe mount bushings may be replaced, but must attach in the factory location(s) without additional modification or changes. Subframe position may not be changed. The amount of metal..."[/i]
So if the "outrigger" bushings move the subframe as they seem to by the measurements earlier, I would say they are illegal.
Andy
| KSwrxWAGON | 03-07-2006 06:18 PM |
A couple subsections down covers this, for those who don't want to read the Good Book:
"D. Differential mount bushings may be replaced, but must attach in
the factory location(s) without additional modification or
changes. Differential position may not be changed. The amount
of metal in a replacement bushing may not be increased relative
to the amount of metal found in a standard bushing for the
particular application. Solid metal bushings are specifically
prohibited."
So the question remains: Does the modified spacing of the outrigger alter the position of the differential?
"D. Differential mount bushings may be replaced, but must attach in
the factory location(s) without additional modification or
changes. Differential position may not be changed. The amount
of metal in a replacement bushing may not be increased relative
to the amount of metal found in a standard bushing for the
particular application. Solid metal bushings are specifically
prohibited."
So the question remains: Does the modified spacing of the outrigger alter the position of the differential?
| leecea | 03-07-2006 06:57 PM |
[QUOTE=KSwrxWAGON]How so, Omaha? I agree the actual differential bushings are legal without a doubt. However, what part of the rules do you think makes the outrigger bushing illegal? I'm not smart enough to understand how the adjusted angle of the differential mount, er outrigger, can change the peformance of the differential (if at all). The increased spacing caused by the bushing is definitely questionable at best.
Do we have any physics-minded folks that want to shed some light on my dim skull?[/QUOTE]
The front of the diff is bolted to the "outrigger" piece so it will move a fraction. The rules don't state that it can be moved as long as performance doesn't change, they just say it can't be moved.
I agree with the poster who said it is within the spirit of the rules, but if the strict interpretation is it must be exactly where it was before, it will be illegal.
Has anyone measured the exact location of the diff fore-and-aft after replacing the other bushings (the ones holding it to the rear cross-member)? Let's say that when the system is bolted back up, they move the diff forward 1/10" - I guess they are illegal too?
Or is there some type of unwritten allowance for negligable position changes that have no effect on performance?
Do we have any physics-minded folks that want to shed some light on my dim skull?[/QUOTE]
The front of the diff is bolted to the "outrigger" piece so it will move a fraction. The rules don't state that it can be moved as long as performance doesn't change, they just say it can't be moved.
I agree with the poster who said it is within the spirit of the rules, but if the strict interpretation is it must be exactly where it was before, it will be illegal.
Has anyone measured the exact location of the diff fore-and-aft after replacing the other bushings (the ones holding it to the rear cross-member)? Let's say that when the system is bolted back up, they move the diff forward 1/10" - I guess they are illegal too?
Or is there some type of unwritten allowance for negligable position changes that have no effect on performance?
| ChrisW | 03-07-2006 07:04 PM |
[QUOTE=maxQ]This one does:
[i]"K. Subframe mount bushings may be replaced, but must attach in the factory location(s) without additional modification or changes. Subframe position may not be changed. The amount of metal..."[/i]
So if the "outrigger" bushings move the subframe as they seem to by the measurements earlier, I would say they are illegal.
Andy[/QUOTE]
show me where in the factory subaru service manual where the outrigger bushings are reffered to as subframe mount bushings and I will believe you.
OR
show me where the rear diff assembly is reffered to as a sub-frame....
[i]"K. Subframe mount bushings may be replaced, but must attach in the factory location(s) without additional modification or changes. Subframe position may not be changed. The amount of metal..."[/i]
So if the "outrigger" bushings move the subframe as they seem to by the measurements earlier, I would say they are illegal.
Andy[/QUOTE]
show me where in the factory subaru service manual where the outrigger bushings are reffered to as subframe mount bushings and I will believe you.
OR
show me where the rear diff assembly is reffered to as a sub-frame....
| DrBiggly | 03-08-2006 10:35 AM |
I looked it up. The FSM calls it a "Differential Front Member" and not an outrigger. It does not specifically name the bushings for it as they don't break the parts down that far. Thus the bushings in question are the differential front member bushings.
-Biggly
-Biggly
| maxQ | 03-08-2006 12:08 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisW]show me where in the factory subaru service manual where the outrigger bushings are reffered to as subframe mount bushings and I will believe you.
OR
show me where the rear diff assembly is reffered to as a sub-frame....[/QUOTE]
If they're subframe mount bushings, they're illegal because they moved the subframe.
If they're differential mount bushings, they're illegal because they moved the differential.
OR
show me where the rear diff assembly is reffered to as a sub-frame....[/QUOTE]
If they're subframe mount bushings, they're illegal because they moved the subframe.
If they're differential mount bushings, they're illegal because they moved the differential.
| 10th Warrior | 03-08-2006 12:39 PM |
[quote]Thus the bushings in question are the differential front member bushings.[/quote]
I'd say they're outrigger bushings, because they don't exist from the factory ;)
I'd say they're outrigger bushings, because they don't exist from the factory ;)
| omahasubaru | 03-08-2006 02:38 PM |
[QUOTE=KSwrxWAGON]As long as the replacement bushing doesn't have an increased volume of metal, it is legal. [/QUOTE]You're missing my point.
From what I've read on the install, these aren't replacement bushings at all. Rather, you're adding bushing spacers to the stock bushings, my entire point is that is specifically allows replacement, not addtion.
Hopefully people aren't confusing what we're talking about with the actual rear diff bushings.
Here is the scoobymods install of the outrigger bushings, perhaps that makes it more clear for those who don't have them.
[url]http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5034[/url]
Like I said. I think replacements would be legal, but this isn't the case with these.
That's all I got. :p
P.S. Chris, I'm not going to protest you for these bushings, their performance advantage IMHO is nill. I don't portest for wenie things like this, you'll be finishing behind me anyways. :p j/k
From what I've read on the install, these aren't replacement bushings at all. Rather, you're adding bushing spacers to the stock bushings, my entire point is that is specifically allows replacement, not addtion.
Hopefully people aren't confusing what we're talking about with the actual rear diff bushings.
Here is the scoobymods install of the outrigger bushings, perhaps that makes it more clear for those who don't have them.
[url]http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5034[/url]
Like I said. I think replacements would be legal, but this isn't the case with these.
That's all I got. :p
P.S. Chris, I'm not going to protest you for these bushings, their performance advantage IMHO is nill. I don't portest for wenie things like this, you'll be finishing behind me anyways. :p j/k
| Turn in Concepts | 03-08-2006 02:39 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea]
Has anyone measured the exact location of the diff fore-and-aft after replacing the other bushings (the ones holding it to the rear cross-member)? Let's say that when the system is bolted back up, they move the diff forward 1/10" - I guess they are illegal too?
Or is there some type of unwritten allowance for negligable position changes that have no effect on performance?[/QUOTE]
That brings up an interesting point. How would one determine where the original point of reference is? Is it what the car is completely on the ground, in the air, under partial weight? I would assume fully on the ground under its own weight. If that is the case it is likely that our bushings would change the location of the diff ever so slightly as the voids in the stock bushings allow that type of movement. That being the case all bushings that would replace the stock ones that are either solid or made of a harder materail that do not cause the diff to "sag" as much when at rest would be illegal.
Tony
Has anyone measured the exact location of the diff fore-and-aft after replacing the other bushings (the ones holding it to the rear cross-member)? Let's say that when the system is bolted back up, they move the diff forward 1/10" - I guess they are illegal too?
Or is there some type of unwritten allowance for negligable position changes that have no effect on performance?[/QUOTE]
That brings up an interesting point. How would one determine where the original point of reference is? Is it what the car is completely on the ground, in the air, under partial weight? I would assume fully on the ground under its own weight. If that is the case it is likely that our bushings would change the location of the diff ever so slightly as the voids in the stock bushings allow that type of movement. That being the case all bushings that would replace the stock ones that are either solid or made of a harder materail that do not cause the diff to "sag" as much when at rest would be illegal.
Tony
| KSwrxWAGON | 03-08-2006 04:20 PM |
[QUOTE=omahasubaru]P.S. Chris, I'm not going to protest you for these bushings, their performance advantage IMHO is nill. I don't portest for wenie things like this, you'll be finishing behind me anyways. :p j/k[/QUOTE]
My car isn't even close to competitive compared to the car you'll be codriving, but I hope you come down to race with me in a couple weeks...I'll have to give you the quick clinic of how to get the most out of these illegal bushings. :lol: You coming or not?
My car isn't even close to competitive compared to the car you'll be codriving, but I hope you come down to race with me in a couple weeks...I'll have to give you the quick clinic of how to get the most out of these illegal bushings. :lol: You coming or not?
| omahasubaru | 03-09-2006 08:30 AM |
Chris, I PMed you over a month ago, check KCautox.
More insight to these bushings. Here are the details on the SuperPro kit. Their name/description says it all. :p
Part Number: SPF1978K
Location Description: Cross-member Supplement Washers
Addtional Notes: Anti tramp bushing
Number of Kits Required Per Vehicle: 1
Single Kit Contents: 6 Bushings
Suspension Location Applied To: Rear
[img]http://www.nebraska-subaru.com/interactive/albums/albup10/outrigger.jpg[/img]
More insight to these bushings. Here are the details on the SuperPro kit. Their name/description says it all. :p
Part Number: SPF1978K
Location Description: Cross-member Supplement Washers
Addtional Notes: Anti tramp bushing
Number of Kits Required Per Vehicle: 1
Single Kit Contents: 6 Bushings
Suspension Location Applied To: Rear
[img]http://www.nebraska-subaru.com/interactive/albums/albup10/outrigger.jpg[/img]
| DrBiggly | 03-09-2006 01:18 PM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]I'd say they're outrigger bushings, because they don't exist from the factory ;)[/QUOTE]
You missed the point. I meant what the stock bushings were technically called; not the aftermarket bushings. :)
-Biggly
You missed the point. I meant what the stock bushings were technically called; not the aftermarket bushings. :)
-Biggly
| 10th Warrior | 03-09-2006 01:22 PM |
gotchya :)
| FTD | 03-09-2006 07:13 PM |
I agree that these Supplement Washers would not be allowed by the differential mount bushing allowance noted above. You can not add them because they are not replacing the differential mount bushings.
You could add these (for example):
[url]http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=NOL91379&Category_Code=850[/url]
These bushings are replacement bushings, the supplemental washers are not replacement bushings.
That is the way I read the rule.
You could add these (for example):
[url]http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=NOL91379&Category_Code=850[/url]
These bushings are replacement bushings, the supplemental washers are not replacement bushings.
That is the way I read the rule.
| ChrisW | 03-09-2006 07:26 PM |
[QUOTE=FTD]I agree that these Supplement Washers would not be allowed by the differential mount bushing allowance noted above. You can not add them because they are not replacing the differential mount bushings.
You could add these (for example):
[url="http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=NOL91379&Category_Code=850"]http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=NOL91379&Category_Code=850[/url]
These bushings are replacement bushings, the supplemental washers are not replacement bushings.
That is the way I read the rule.[/QUOTE]
agreed. IMO, these noltec replacement bushing would be legal under the differential bushing rule.
You could add these (for example):
[url="http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=NOL91379&Category_Code=850"]http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=NOL91379&Category_Code=850[/url]
These bushings are replacement bushings, the supplemental washers are not replacement bushings.
That is the way I read the rule.[/QUOTE]
agreed. IMO, these noltec replacement bushing would be legal under the differential bushing rule.
| Splash | 09-27-2006 02:35 AM |
Ok, this is about silly...
So, just remove the OEM bushing, glue the washer to it, then call the now 1-piece assembly a replacement bushing...
You can even name it after yourself if you want...
"Yes, I have the "Stiff-o-matic" rear diff subframe bushings installed..."
Jeez...
Mike
STU 82
So, just remove the OEM bushing, glue the washer to it, then call the now 1-piece assembly a replacement bushing...
You can even name it after yourself if you want...
"Yes, I have the "Stiff-o-matic" rear diff subframe bushings installed..."
Jeez...
Mike
STU 82
| DrBiggly | 09-27-2006 09:39 AM |
You know I was thinking about this just the other day; simply cut the thickness of the bushing you're adding out of the stock bushing and voila; instant 'replacement' and it only takes 5 minutes with an blade. :)
-Biggly
-Biggly
| jamesohoh7 | 09-27-2006 10:09 AM |
[QUOTE=Splash;15398861]Ok, this is about silly...
So, just remove the OEM bushing, glue the washer to it, then call the now 1-piece assembly a replacement bushing...
You can even name it after yourself if you want...
"Yes, I have the "Stiff-o-matic" rear diff subframe bushings installed..."
Jeez...
Mike
STU 82[/QUOTE]
A friend of mine was suggesting this to me a while back as well b/c I bought the TiC bushing kit (only installed the diff-mount ones thus far).
Lets say there's a company that provides this kind of 'replacement bushing system' and what it amounts to is the stocker with these glued-on bits... how is that viewed by the rules?... It meets every letter of the rules, I would suggest.
To be clear, I'm saying that "Company X" obtains stock bushings, glues on the pieces in question, then sells this as a replacement bushing.
Next topic: I'm starting a bushing-gluing company: [b] JamesOhOh7's Honest Bushing Gluing Company[/b]. You send me $20 + s/h, your bushings, the add-on bits, and I'll glue them together and invoice you so you can meet -all- the letters of the laws w/respect to this rule... you installed a replacement, one-piece bushing.
Now then... [b]For just $25[/b], I'll sell you just an invoice that says I did this work so that you don't have to spend time sending stuff in the mail and waiting.... ;) (yes, charging more for less work b/c I suspect that option would be more popular)
Million dollar idea?!.. :lol:
So, just remove the OEM bushing, glue the washer to it, then call the now 1-piece assembly a replacement bushing...
You can even name it after yourself if you want...
"Yes, I have the "Stiff-o-matic" rear diff subframe bushings installed..."
Jeez...
Mike
STU 82[/QUOTE]
A friend of mine was suggesting this to me a while back as well b/c I bought the TiC bushing kit (only installed the diff-mount ones thus far).
Lets say there's a company that provides this kind of 'replacement bushing system' and what it amounts to is the stocker with these glued-on bits... how is that viewed by the rules?... It meets every letter of the rules, I would suggest.
To be clear, I'm saying that "Company X" obtains stock bushings, glues on the pieces in question, then sells this as a replacement bushing.
Next topic: I'm starting a bushing-gluing company: [b] JamesOhOh7's Honest Bushing Gluing Company[/b]. You send me $20 + s/h, your bushings, the add-on bits, and I'll glue them together and invoice you so you can meet -all- the letters of the laws w/respect to this rule... you installed a replacement, one-piece bushing.
Now then... [b]For just $25[/b], I'll sell you just an invoice that says I did this work so that you don't have to spend time sending stuff in the mail and waiting.... ;) (yes, charging more for less work b/c I suspect that option would be more popular)
Million dollar idea?!.. :lol:
| Splash | 09-27-2006 12:41 PM |
Not really, Oakos sells the Noltec "outrigger" bushings... The difference is that the TiC ones are poly washers that add to the OEM bushing, while the Noltec ones are 1-piece complete replacements with the "washer" part built into it.
Then again, if you glue the washer to the OEM bushing, it too is a 1-piece complete replacement bushing and is just as legal.
That's why I said this argument is silly.
We're getting down to arguing about HOW a bushing is manufactured, as if there were any restriction on that beyond its metallic content.
Mike
STU 82
Then again, if you glue the washer to the OEM bushing, it too is a 1-piece complete replacement bushing and is just as legal.
That's why I said this argument is silly.
We're getting down to arguing about HOW a bushing is manufactured, as if there were any restriction on that beyond its metallic content.
Mike
STU 82
| jamesohoh7 | 09-27-2006 04:21 PM |
[QUOTE=Splash;15403117]Not really, Oakos sells the Noltec "outrigger" bushings... The difference is that the TiC ones are poly washers that add to the OEM bushing, while the Noltec ones are 1-piece complete replacements with the "washer" part built into it.
Then again, if you glue the washer to the OEM bushing, it too is a 1-piece complete replacement bushing and is just as legal.
That's why I said this argument is silly.
We're getting down to arguing about HOW a bushing is manufactured, as if there were any restriction on that beyond its metallic content.
Mike
STU 82[/QUOTE]
No no, I know one-piece bushings are available... I was joking and trying to beat this still kicking horse dead with the absurd proposition of selling an invoice for 'work done' on the multi-piece bits to illustrate the silly situation that we both (all!?) agree upon :)
Then again, if you glue the washer to the OEM bushing, it too is a 1-piece complete replacement bushing and is just as legal.
That's why I said this argument is silly.
We're getting down to arguing about HOW a bushing is manufactured, as if there were any restriction on that beyond its metallic content.
Mike
STU 82[/QUOTE]
No no, I know one-piece bushings are available... I was joking and trying to beat this still kicking horse dead with the absurd proposition of selling an invoice for 'work done' on the multi-piece bits to illustrate the silly situation that we both (all!?) agree upon :)
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