| Vampyr | 07-29-2006 07:48 PM |
recommendations for solo racing upgrades?
�
�
I need to start upgrading my suspension, wheel and tire sizes, and any other needed item (5 point harness bar, sparco seats?)
What do you recommend that still stays within BSP class regulation?
Any manufacturer better than others? (Cusco, Perrin, Cobb, etc...)
edited: *In Other words... Without spending alot of money, is it better to run an STi in STU class, or BSP class?! If it requires too much to be done to the car, then I'll take it out of BSP and run the car in a lower class.
Thanks all!
What do you recommend that still stays within BSP class regulation?
Any manufacturer better than others? (Cusco, Perrin, Cobb, etc...)
edited: *In Other words... Without spending alot of money, is it better to run an STi in STU class, or BSP class?! If it requires too much to be done to the car, then I'll take it out of BSP and run the car in a lower class.
Thanks all!
| adhowe70 | 07-29-2006 08:20 PM |
You can skip the harness bar... you won't find anything that is actually legal in SP. At least not on a sedan chassis. Seats and harnesses are low priority, anyway, IMO. The biggest gains are wheels and tires (widest you can find...) and suspension (very stiff springs / dampers and appropriate sway bars.)
| Vampyr | 07-29-2006 08:36 PM |
well I can find pretty wide tires... but what tires are best?! Will 17x9s even fit on my car without rolling the fenders?!
Do I need to get 275s?
What suspension mods are most important?! strut tower braces?! endlinks? springs and top hats?
What are 'appropriate' sway bars?
Do I need to get 275s?
What suspension mods are most important?! strut tower braces?! endlinks? springs and top hats?
What are 'appropriate' sway bars?
| BlueSTI4Me | 07-29-2006 09:06 PM |
Don't say it.......someone hold me back!
| tuskenraider | 07-29-2006 09:10 PM |
Well...............how much money you got and how competitive do you want to be? How much autox experience do you have to this point?
| Vampyr | 07-29-2006 09:10 PM |
[QUOTE=BlueSTI4Me]Don't say it.......someone hold me back![/QUOTE]
please don't post useless responses... I don't have time to read crap responses like this.
please don't post useless responses... I don't have time to read crap responses like this.
| Vampyr | 07-29-2006 09:19 PM |
[QUOTE=tuskenraider]Well...............how much money you got and how competitive do you want to be? How much autox experience do you have to this point?[/QUOTE]
How much money I have? I don't want to buy everything at once... I want to start with maybe better tires so I can get rid of my stocks... and then minimize the amount of body roll my front end has.
My biggest problem is the amount of tire squel I get... my poor stocks are hanging on for dear life.
This is my 'starter' year with autox... I've been to 2 events so far and have about 4 more to go.
I'm new... but the problem is that I have NO suspension mods, only power mods and to at least stay competitive in my class, I need to tighten up my car.
How much money I have? I don't want to buy everything at once... I want to start with maybe better tires so I can get rid of my stocks... and then minimize the amount of body roll my front end has.
My biggest problem is the amount of tire squel I get... my poor stocks are hanging on for dear life.
This is my 'starter' year with autox... I've been to 2 events so far and have about 4 more to go.
I'm new... but the problem is that I have NO suspension mods, only power mods and to at least stay competitive in my class, I need to tighten up my car.
| adhowe70 | 07-29-2006 09:24 PM |
Well, its hard to tell you what you want without knowing YOU and YOUR driving style. That said:
Tires: 275/40/17 Kumho V710's on [b]at least[/b] a 17x9 wheel. A 17x10 or 17x11 would be perfect. If you can fit the 295's, do that instead.
Springs and dampers (really effing stiff... like 12kg all around or so - buy several sets of springs for front and rear. And blow your wad on some high end Ohlins/Moton/JRZ/Penske/Zzyzx/etc double or triple adjustable dampers)
Camber plates (you want 2+ degrees of negative camber)
Alignment (see above)
Sway bars (stiffer than stock and adjustable... buy several)
Endlinks (solid with spherical bearings... no rubber isht)
Pretty much in that order.
Of course all that will cost you $6k - $10k and take you a full season of running every weekend to sort out.
Tires: 275/40/17 Kumho V710's on [b]at least[/b] a 17x9 wheel. A 17x10 or 17x11 would be perfect. If you can fit the 295's, do that instead.
Springs and dampers (really effing stiff... like 12kg all around or so - buy several sets of springs for front and rear. And blow your wad on some high end Ohlins/Moton/JRZ/Penske/Zzyzx/etc double or triple adjustable dampers)
Camber plates (you want 2+ degrees of negative camber)
Alignment (see above)
Sway bars (stiffer than stock and adjustable... buy several)
Endlinks (solid with spherical bearings... no rubber isht)
Pretty much in that order.
Of course all that will cost you $6k - $10k and take you a full season of running every weekend to sort out.
| tuskenraider | 07-29-2006 09:31 PM |
Eventually the national competitors on this board are gonna chime in to tell you to just drive the car as is and learn it so you know what each upgrade does for the car and whether or not it benefits your driving style. One thing I forgot to ask is why BSP? Not interested in AS or STU?
| omaha03wrx | 07-29-2006 09:36 PM |
These [url]http://www.edgeracing.com/wheel/224/[/url] would be some good cheap 17x9 wheels weighing in at roughly 17.5lbs and $205 a piece. I agree that some 275/40-17 V710�s would be the best tire to go with on that size wheel.
Also as far as coilovers go since you only want to have to purchase things once go with the best coilovers for out Subaru�s Zzyzx. [url]http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/[/url] With these coilovers and high enough rates there�s no need for sway bars.
Also as far as coilovers go since you only want to have to purchase things once go with the best coilovers for out Subaru�s Zzyzx. [url]http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/[/url] With these coilovers and high enough rates there�s no need for sway bars.
| adhowe70 | 07-29-2006 09:45 PM |
I'm guessing BSP because he likes boost. :)
And yes, as a national competitor, I think you should learn to drive the car on one major mod at a time. My list is for a good driver wanting to get competitive at the national level.
Regional competition / easy answer setup? Try SEARCHING. Its been discussed a bazillion times.
And yes, as a national competitor, I think you should learn to drive the car on one major mod at a time. My list is for a good driver wanting to get competitive at the national level.
Regional competition / easy answer setup? Try SEARCHING. Its been discussed a bazillion times.
| silver arrow | 07-29-2006 10:13 PM |
PM Scooby South. He has a very competitive BSP STi and has 17x9 with 275's on it.
| makofoto | 07-30-2006 02:03 AM |
Excellent suggestion on the 710's ... minimal amount of squealing! Should solve one of his main "problems." Sounds like he's pretty good if the oem tires are hanging on for dear life. At least we know how high is ability level is ...
| Paisan | 07-30-2006 07:04 PM |
Solo I or Solo II?
-mike
-mike
| adhowe70 | 07-30-2006 07:31 PM |
Solo I doesn't exist anymore... There's the Performance Driving Experience and Time Trials, both of which are goverened by Club Racing.
| tuskenraider | 07-30-2006 07:36 PM |
And Solo II is now just Solo.
| Paisan | 07-30-2006 09:06 PM |
[QUOTE=adhowe70]Solo I doesn't exist anymore... There's the Performance Driving Experience and Time Trials, both of which are goverened by Club Racing.[/QUOTE]
Gotcha, since Subarus aren't really embraced (at least affordable ones) by SCCA I never followed up with the Solo I program.
-Mike
Gotcha, since Subarus aren't really embraced (at least affordable ones) by SCCA I never followed up with the Solo I program.
-Mike
| Modifying | 07-30-2006 09:26 PM |
Vampyr, I don't know if you are an experienced driver or not, but I doubt you are since you are asking quesionts that experienced drives DO KNOW for sure.
I start to race Autox and Solo I this year, my car has a 22mm Cusco RSB+endlinks, Cobb Stg 2, that's why it put me in ESS(Canada), ESP(SCCA). I am pretty regreteful actually since I did all the mods before I started to race.
Anyway, a beginner should drive the stock car and is supposed to be driving the car at the limit at the end of season or even before that, that way you can tell whether you have improved or what mods do you need to be more competitive.
I am running on V710's, I gurantee you, if you cant drive a set of street tires at its limit, you are no where to push the V710s to the limit. I started my rookie year which is this year with V710s, at the first 3 or 4 events, I had no idea where the LIMITS are, then I started to practise with steet tires, things were getting better afterwards and now I can tell what should I improve.
If you want to be a GOOD driver, keep your car in stock and get a good set of tires, once you build up your skills and experiences, then MODs.
I start to race Autox and Solo I this year, my car has a 22mm Cusco RSB+endlinks, Cobb Stg 2, that's why it put me in ESS(Canada), ESP(SCCA). I am pretty regreteful actually since I did all the mods before I started to race.
Anyway, a beginner should drive the stock car and is supposed to be driving the car at the limit at the end of season or even before that, that way you can tell whether you have improved or what mods do you need to be more competitive.
I am running on V710's, I gurantee you, if you cant drive a set of street tires at its limit, you are no where to push the V710s to the limit. I started my rookie year which is this year with V710s, at the first 3 or 4 events, I had no idea where the LIMITS are, then I started to practise with steet tires, things were getting better afterwards and now I can tell what should I improve.
If you want to be a GOOD driver, keep your car in stock and get a good set of tires, once you build up your skills and experiences, then MODs.
| Vampyr | 07-30-2006 09:55 PM |
good posts... thanks...
I've been upgrading the power in my car... and started getting hooked into solo. (mostly because there are some nice people there who simply enjoy the sport and NOT the competition) Without a doubt my few mods have put me in a class that is above where I need to be. I could put all the stock equipment back on, but would rather learn the car the way it currently is, BUT at the same time, improve on some stock parts. (I'm already losing some chunks from my sidewalls on my stock tires, they can't last forever)
I'm still learning, but I would rather learn to drive a car that is capable of being a contender in its class. Unfortunately I am about 3-4 seconds from the pace of the fastest car... of course the fastest car has wide hoosier comp tires and quite a few suspension mods (along with full sponsorships).
I've been searching through vendor websites, but it seems that 17x9 or wider must not be a common wheel size. Other than edgeracing.com, does anyone know of some sites that carry these size wheels?
I plan on learning the car 'as is' for the rest of the year, and then add something to it next year to see how it improves.
I may end putting my car back to stock and then seeing how it does next year... but stock is NOT the class I want to stay in.
I guess my main concern is... I'm up against EVOs that have ALOT better suspension and handling than my STi. I KNOW I'll improve... but I need to improve my car as well.
Again, thanks for the posts/replies... :)
I've been upgrading the power in my car... and started getting hooked into solo. (mostly because there are some nice people there who simply enjoy the sport and NOT the competition) Without a doubt my few mods have put me in a class that is above where I need to be. I could put all the stock equipment back on, but would rather learn the car the way it currently is, BUT at the same time, improve on some stock parts. (I'm already losing some chunks from my sidewalls on my stock tires, they can't last forever)
I'm still learning, but I would rather learn to drive a car that is capable of being a contender in its class. Unfortunately I am about 3-4 seconds from the pace of the fastest car... of course the fastest car has wide hoosier comp tires and quite a few suspension mods (along with full sponsorships).
I've been searching through vendor websites, but it seems that 17x9 or wider must not be a common wheel size. Other than edgeracing.com, does anyone know of some sites that carry these size wheels?
I plan on learning the car 'as is' for the rest of the year, and then add something to it next year to see how it improves.
I may end putting my car back to stock and then seeing how it does next year... but stock is NOT the class I want to stay in.
I guess my main concern is... I'm up against EVOs that have ALOT better suspension and handling than my STi. I KNOW I'll improve... but I need to improve my car as well.
Again, thanks for the posts/replies... :)
| Butt Dyno | 07-30-2006 10:05 PM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr]I've been upgrading the power in my car... and started getting hooked into solo. [/quote]What mods do you have on the car now?
[QUOTE=Vampyr]I'm still learning, but I would rather learn to drive a car that is capable of being a contender in its class. [/quote]You can still have a haul-ass car with STU-legal mods. If you have an Accessport you can switch between an STU map and a street map. Lots of us do this :)
john
[QUOTE=Vampyr]I'm still learning, but I would rather learn to drive a car that is capable of being a contender in its class. [/quote]You can still have a haul-ass car with STU-legal mods. If you have an Accessport you can switch between an STU map and a street map. Lots of us do this :)
john
| Skibum4444 | 07-30-2006 10:06 PM |
[URL]http://www.kodiakracingwheels.com/[/URL]
| adhowe70 | 07-30-2006 10:12 PM |
OK... that's the kind of background that we needed to work with. :)
Tires: Race tires are best used on track and street tires are best used on the street. They both wear out too quickly when used in the wrong application. Race tires wear out because of the long duration of heat (they lose sticky) and you've seen what happens to street tires. Unfortunately, race tires need negative camber, too. You'll really find that race tires don't last well without enough negative camber, especially the Hoosiers.
Wide wheels are tough to find in Subie fitments. I'm running 17x8's because they were easy to find (and this is an R&D season). Realistically, you'll need to find someone that makes multi-piece wheels and put something together out of their catalog.
You'll find close to 2 seconds just by going to race tires. Tires really are that big of a deal. The rest is in driver and suspension, mostly driver.
"Full sponsorships" do not exist in Solo. Many big name drivers have partial deals (tires, tuning, etc.) but no one has a paid ride (that I know of.)
And the worst part... the Evo probably isn't at the top level of the sport. BSP has historically been dominated by some wicked M3's and Corvettes. With the addition of the S2000, the STi and the Evo, we may see a shake up. But right now, BSP should be faster than SS by a couple tenths.
Tires: Race tires are best used on track and street tires are best used on the street. They both wear out too quickly when used in the wrong application. Race tires wear out because of the long duration of heat (they lose sticky) and you've seen what happens to street tires. Unfortunately, race tires need negative camber, too. You'll really find that race tires don't last well without enough negative camber, especially the Hoosiers.
Wide wheels are tough to find in Subie fitments. I'm running 17x8's because they were easy to find (and this is an R&D season). Realistically, you'll need to find someone that makes multi-piece wheels and put something together out of their catalog.
You'll find close to 2 seconds just by going to race tires. Tires really are that big of a deal. The rest is in driver and suspension, mostly driver.
"Full sponsorships" do not exist in Solo. Many big name drivers have partial deals (tires, tuning, etc.) but no one has a paid ride (that I know of.)
And the worst part... the Evo probably isn't at the top level of the sport. BSP has historically been dominated by some wicked M3's and Corvettes. With the addition of the S2000, the STi and the Evo, we may see a shake up. But right now, BSP should be faster than SS by a couple tenths.
| Student Driver | 07-31-2006 11:20 AM |
I love my PDE camber plates, so if you get something that's compatible (I use stock struts and Prodrive springs) they're worth it. Also, if your surface isn't nice and smooth, you could find yourself hopping a lot if you go too stiff on the springs. We run concrete and super smooth asphalt in my club, but the Tucson club has a fairly "lumpy" parking lot that dips in the middle. You could run a much stiffer spring in my club than you would want to in Tucson.
| KC | 07-31-2006 11:59 AM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr]please don't post useless responses... I don't have time to read crap responses like this.[/QUOTE]
If you don't have time to read useless posts, how do you have time to read informative ones that are longer and more detailed? At least the short ones are quick.
[QUOTE]I'm still learning, but I would rather learn to drive a car that is capable of being a contender in its class. Unfortunately I am about 3-4 seconds from the pace of the fastest car... of course the fastest car has wide hoosier comp tires and quite a few suspension mods (along with full sponsorships).[/QUOTE]
It's not all about the tires. 1st & 2nd year out, it's mostly your driving. Agreed, you can have fun with a dialed in car, but if you don't have 'the time' to read useless posts, you don't have 'the time' to figure stuff out on your own and knowing what a simple turn of the dial on your shock does, or more importantly what happens on the course when you do it. Honestly, you don't have the seat time to know if or which shock/spring combo is hurting or helping your time.
Get tires. Get wheels. Get some cheap struts/springs and call it a year (Something like Tein Flex is a good start, but not the end-all, be-all).
But I'm telling you this right now. You're going to blow through tires left and right if you don't know HOW to drive and you WILL blame a) the advice in this thread or b) the mods on your car for bad times when, in fact, its your lack of driving capability.
Take an Evo School. [url]http://www.autocross.com/evolution[/url] learn from the best in the sport.
--kC
If you don't have time to read useless posts, how do you have time to read informative ones that are longer and more detailed? At least the short ones are quick.
[QUOTE]I'm still learning, but I would rather learn to drive a car that is capable of being a contender in its class. Unfortunately I am about 3-4 seconds from the pace of the fastest car... of course the fastest car has wide hoosier comp tires and quite a few suspension mods (along with full sponsorships).[/QUOTE]
It's not all about the tires. 1st & 2nd year out, it's mostly your driving. Agreed, you can have fun with a dialed in car, but if you don't have 'the time' to read useless posts, you don't have 'the time' to figure stuff out on your own and knowing what a simple turn of the dial on your shock does, or more importantly what happens on the course when you do it. Honestly, you don't have the seat time to know if or which shock/spring combo is hurting or helping your time.
Get tires. Get wheels. Get some cheap struts/springs and call it a year (Something like Tein Flex is a good start, but not the end-all, be-all).
But I'm telling you this right now. You're going to blow through tires left and right if you don't know HOW to drive and you WILL blame a) the advice in this thread or b) the mods on your car for bad times when, in fact, its your lack of driving capability.
Take an Evo School. [url]http://www.autocross.com/evolution[/url] learn from the best in the sport.
--kC
| CamaroFS34 | 07-31-2006 12:41 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]But I'm telling you this right now. You're going to blow through tires left and right if you don't know HOW to drive...[/QUOTE]
This is the honest truth. I unfortunately know because I tore through tires the first [i]several[/i] years in my Camaro. The best thing you can do is improve [i]you[/i] first, and then work on the car. Considering the cost of tires these days, it will cost you less in the long run.
Karen
This is the honest truth. I unfortunately know because I tore through tires the first [i]several[/i] years in my Camaro. The best thing you can do is improve [i]you[/i] first, and then work on the car. Considering the cost of tires these days, it will cost you less in the long run.
Karen
| adhowe70 | 07-31-2006 12:47 PM |
KC and Karen bring up good points... race tires do not stand up to abuse. You can kill a set of tires in a hurry if you don't listen to what the tires are telling you. If race tires are screaming, they're shredding. You have to listen to the car... and you don't listen with your ears.
| jcroy66 | 07-31-2006 12:56 PM |
100% agree with KC and Karen. That was exactly my opinion as I started reading this thread just now.
[QUOTE=makofoto]Sounds like he's pretty good if the oem tires are hanging on for dear life.[/QUOTE]I 100% disagree. In my experience, the more the tires are squealing and "barely hanging on", it's a darn good sign that the car is being [u]overdriven[/u]. Newbies are almost ALWAYS more likely to overdrive than to underdrive. Please don't confuse the OP by telling him that if he's squealing the tires, he's driving "pretty good"! :furious:
Edit:
[QUOTE=Vampyr]I'm still learning, but I would rather learn to drive a car that is capable of being a contender in its class. Unfortunately I am about 3-4 seconds from the pace of the fastest car...[/QUOTE]If you've only autocrossed twice, lemme bring you back down to earth. Unless you've got some amazing innate ability or have been motocrossing since you were 2 or something (i.e. Sortor and Basham), then you have [u][b]way[/b][/u] more than 3-4 seconds to gain from driving improvement. Face it. You could leave your car completely stock and improve that much or more by the end of the season. Spend the money on autocross schools and seat time. Your time is not a result of your lack of mods. Period.
[QUOTE=makofoto]Sounds like he's pretty good if the oem tires are hanging on for dear life.[/QUOTE]I 100% disagree. In my experience, the more the tires are squealing and "barely hanging on", it's a darn good sign that the car is being [u]overdriven[/u]. Newbies are almost ALWAYS more likely to overdrive than to underdrive. Please don't confuse the OP by telling him that if he's squealing the tires, he's driving "pretty good"! :furious:
Edit:
[QUOTE=Vampyr]I'm still learning, but I would rather learn to drive a car that is capable of being a contender in its class. Unfortunately I am about 3-4 seconds from the pace of the fastest car...[/QUOTE]If you've only autocrossed twice, lemme bring you back down to earth. Unless you've got some amazing innate ability or have been motocrossing since you were 2 or something (i.e. Sortor and Basham), then you have [u][b]way[/b][/u] more than 3-4 seconds to gain from driving improvement. Face it. You could leave your car completely stock and improve that much or more by the end of the season. Spend the money on autocross schools and seat time. Your time is not a result of your lack of mods. Period.
| KC | 07-31-2006 01:31 PM |
[QUOTE=][/QUOTE]
Whoa I missed that whole "2 event" post...
Vampyr, you have all of 10 minutes in auto-x seat time [I]at most[/I] from 2 events and you're saying you need to do stuff? A whole 10 minutes of driving and you think you can hang with someone whos driving better than you?
I think it's fantastic that you're hooked on the sport. We need more people with your enthusiasm that want, strive to go faster. However, if you think you can get faster by (what is commonly called) 'throwing money at the car' you may like the short term outcome (you would be faster) you're going to be disappointed with the results in the long term when you find out you missed out on the foundations of what make people fast.... their driving.
10 minutes of seat time isn't the best time to start saying you need to start modifying things. That's just getting started! :)
Whoa I missed that whole "2 event" post...
Vampyr, you have all of 10 minutes in auto-x seat time [I]at most[/I] from 2 events and you're saying you need to do stuff? A whole 10 minutes of driving and you think you can hang with someone whos driving better than you?
I think it's fantastic that you're hooked on the sport. We need more people with your enthusiasm that want, strive to go faster. However, if you think you can get faster by (what is commonly called) 'throwing money at the car' you may like the short term outcome (you would be faster) you're going to be disappointed with the results in the long term when you find out you missed out on the foundations of what make people fast.... their driving.
10 minutes of seat time isn't the best time to start saying you need to start modifying things. That's just getting started! :)
| Vampyr | 07-31-2006 02:09 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
I 100% disagree. In my experience, the more the tires are squealing and "barely hanging on", it's a darn good sign that the car is being overdriven:
[/QUOTE]
Without a doubt, I AM overdriving the car. I knew that the first run I did... I spent more time understanding how my car reacts to my input more than I was worried about my timed run.
But nonetheless.... I'm not trying to get advice on 'how' to drive my car better... I'll figure that out on my own with time and experience.
[B]All I'm really asking is what kind of mods do other STi have to make their car competitive in BSP class?![/B] (maybe I worded my question wrong? :rolleyes: )
I would gladly offer a professional solo racer the opportunity to drive my current car 'as is' in BSP class and prove to me that my car can beat an 05 EVO with $10,000+ in modifcations.
If it was up to me... I'd put the car back to stock and race in AS class, but there is 'no way in hell' my car could beat an S2000 (those things are fast in stock).
I'm simply trying to decide if I should learn to drive the car in BSP class, or give up and move to STU class.
Again... thanks for the posts regarding the OT.
I 100% disagree. In my experience, the more the tires are squealing and "barely hanging on", it's a darn good sign that the car is being overdriven:
[/QUOTE]
Without a doubt, I AM overdriving the car. I knew that the first run I did... I spent more time understanding how my car reacts to my input more than I was worried about my timed run.
But nonetheless.... I'm not trying to get advice on 'how' to drive my car better... I'll figure that out on my own with time and experience.
[B]All I'm really asking is what kind of mods do other STi have to make their car competitive in BSP class?![/B] (maybe I worded my question wrong? :rolleyes: )
I would gladly offer a professional solo racer the opportunity to drive my current car 'as is' in BSP class and prove to me that my car can beat an 05 EVO with $10,000+ in modifcations.
If it was up to me... I'd put the car back to stock and race in AS class, but there is 'no way in hell' my car could beat an S2000 (those things are fast in stock).
I'm simply trying to decide if I should learn to drive the car in BSP class, or give up and move to STU class.
Again... thanks for the posts regarding the OT.
| KC | 07-31-2006 02:18 PM |
[QUOTE]All I'm really asking is what kind of mods do other STi have to make their car competitive in BSP class?![/QUOTE]
You don't get it. It's not the mods that make the car fast. It's the driver.
Auto-x, as it has been said through the ages, is 90% driver, 5% Mods, 5% Crazy MoJo.
Ok, let me ask you this... who is the driver of that Evo? How long have they been auto-xing? Do you have a link to the results from the 1st two events you went to?
--kC
You don't get it. It's not the mods that make the car fast. It's the driver.
Auto-x, as it has been said through the ages, is 90% driver, 5% Mods, 5% Crazy MoJo.
Ok, let me ask you this... who is the driver of that Evo? How long have they been auto-xing? Do you have a link to the results from the 1st two events you went to?
--kC
| jcroy66 | 07-31-2006 02:21 PM |
SEARCH. In twenty seconds of searching with Google, I found a link giving setup info for James's nationally-prepped and driven ShimmySideways car. I'm not going to spoon-feed you the link though, because I think you should learn how to press the SEARCH button before complaining that we aren't telling you what you need to be competitive.
Cliff Notes: we WERE telling you what to do to be competitive. [u][i][b]DRIVER[/b][/i][/u]. As KC said much more completely and politely:
[quote=KC]However, if you think you can get faster by (what is commonly called) 'throwing money at the car' you may like the short term outcome (you would be faster) you're going to be disappointed with the results in the long term when you find out you missed out on the foundations of what make people fast.... their driving.[/quote]
Cliff Notes: we WERE telling you what to do to be competitive. [u][i][b]DRIVER[/b][/i][/u]. As KC said much more completely and politely:
[quote=KC]However, if you think you can get faster by (what is commonly called) 'throwing money at the car' you may like the short term outcome (you would be faster) you're going to be disappointed with the results in the long term when you find out you missed out on the foundations of what make people fast.... their driving.[/quote]
| KC | 07-31-2006 02:29 PM |
His previous threads on the subject: [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14111759[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14165127[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14573907[/url]
We get what you're asking. However the answers aren't want you WANT to read, but what you NEED to read and understand.
Save your money.
It's just like this thread here:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14628585&postcount=314[/url]
[QUOTE=vampyr]So I gotta ask...
Why are you doing all these mods on your car?!
Have you tested them at the track before adding more?! Where's the timeslips?!
Seems like you are spending alot of money to make this car go faster than stock... by the time you are done, you probably would of added enough cost to the car to have justified a new C6 Corvette!
So I gotta ask... why?![/QUOTE]
We're actaully not asking you... we're telling you... throwing money at the car will not make you much faster than if you learned how to drive it 1st... just like your own advice, only better! :)
Auto-x isn't like drag racing. Not at all! You can't just throw money at a car and expect results. As in drag racing, you need to know how to stage, how to rev, how to slip the clutch vs dumping the clutch. Arguably, many think that drag racing is easier to do because that's all you do is THROW MONEY AT POWER and the car does the rest. And to a point, that's true. The Car is the thing that needs to last all the way down. It's all brute force.
Auto-x is so far removed from drag racing that the car actually is only a small part, a very small part of getting a fast time. Like I said earlier... it's only 5-10% of your time. All the rest is in your driving.
Example: You can throw your money into your car and have it all togther for the last event of the year. I will show up in a stock Sti, with just tires, and proceed to whip your butt. That doesn't happen in drag racing, you may only lose by 10ths or if really bad a second... but multiple seconds is commonplace in auto-x when you have an experienced auto-xer vs a novice.
Get out of the drag race mentality. That may be your biggest mental block of actually 'getting it'.
--kC
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14165127[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14573907[/url]
We get what you're asking. However the answers aren't want you WANT to read, but what you NEED to read and understand.
Save your money.
It's just like this thread here:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14628585&postcount=314[/url]
[QUOTE=vampyr]So I gotta ask...
Why are you doing all these mods on your car?!
Have you tested them at the track before adding more?! Where's the timeslips?!
Seems like you are spending alot of money to make this car go faster than stock... by the time you are done, you probably would of added enough cost to the car to have justified a new C6 Corvette!
So I gotta ask... why?![/QUOTE]
We're actaully not asking you... we're telling you... throwing money at the car will not make you much faster than if you learned how to drive it 1st... just like your own advice, only better! :)
Auto-x isn't like drag racing. Not at all! You can't just throw money at a car and expect results. As in drag racing, you need to know how to stage, how to rev, how to slip the clutch vs dumping the clutch. Arguably, many think that drag racing is easier to do because that's all you do is THROW MONEY AT POWER and the car does the rest. And to a point, that's true. The Car is the thing that needs to last all the way down. It's all brute force.
Auto-x is so far removed from drag racing that the car actually is only a small part, a very small part of getting a fast time. Like I said earlier... it's only 5-10% of your time. All the rest is in your driving.
Example: You can throw your money into your car and have it all togther for the last event of the year. I will show up in a stock Sti, with just tires, and proceed to whip your butt. That doesn't happen in drag racing, you may only lose by 10ths or if really bad a second... but multiple seconds is commonplace in auto-x when you have an experienced auto-xer vs a novice.
Get out of the drag race mentality. That may be your biggest mental block of actually 'getting it'.
--kC
| javid | 07-31-2006 02:31 PM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr]
[B]All I'm really asking is what kind of mods do other STi have to make their car competitive in BSP class?![/B] (maybe I worded my question wrong? :rolleyes: )
[/QUOTE]
Clutch/Flywheel
Water injection or race gas tune
Intake manifold, intake tube, inlet
A search button
Exhaust manifold, Downpipe, exhaust
multiple sets of 10 to 11" wheels
275 to 315.... 710s or A6s
read threads to learn who runs BSP
zzyzx coilovers
everysingle bushing on the car is upgraded to poly
rear diff
a realistic understanding of BSP budget
seats, harnesses
Pads and rotors
a civic, sentra, or miata
[B]All I'm really asking is what kind of mods do other STi have to make their car competitive in BSP class?![/B] (maybe I worded my question wrong? :rolleyes: )
[/QUOTE]
Clutch/Flywheel
Water injection or race gas tune
Intake manifold, intake tube, inlet
A search button
Exhaust manifold, Downpipe, exhaust
multiple sets of 10 to 11" wheels
275 to 315.... 710s or A6s
read threads to learn who runs BSP
zzyzx coilovers
everysingle bushing on the car is upgraded to poly
rear diff
a realistic understanding of BSP budget
seats, harnesses
Pads and rotors
a civic, sentra, or miata
| Modifying | 07-31-2006 02:41 PM |
[QUOTE=javid]
a civic, sentra, or miata[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
a civic, sentra, or miata[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
| AcquaCow | 07-31-2006 02:45 PM |
Having just completed my first solo event yesterday, I have realized a few things.
Your car is fine.
There is always someone out there who can drive it faster/better than you. Even if they have never driven it before.
I ran consistent 63.7-64sec laps, but I stuck someone who was 20 years older than I, with much more experience behind the wheel for a lap.
[b]He ran 2sec faster than I did in a COMPLETELY unfamiliar car ON HIS FIRST RUN and had never driven the car before in his life.[/b]
God help us if he had the time to get used to how it handled.
I'm already in the process of signing up for my next event and I'm not modding the car at all between now and then. I may get my toe zeroed out, since it's messed up, but I'm not switching to R-comps or anything crazy.
-- Dave
Your car is fine.
There is always someone out there who can drive it faster/better than you. Even if they have never driven it before.
I ran consistent 63.7-64sec laps, but I stuck someone who was 20 years older than I, with much more experience behind the wheel for a lap.
[b]He ran 2sec faster than I did in a COMPLETELY unfamiliar car ON HIS FIRST RUN and had never driven the car before in his life.[/b]
God help us if he had the time to get used to how it handled.
I'm already in the process of signing up for my next event and I'm not modding the car at all between now and then. I may get my toe zeroed out, since it's messed up, but I'm not switching to R-comps or anything crazy.
-- Dave
| KC | 07-31-2006 02:53 PM |
[QUOTE=AcquaCow]Having just completed my first solo event yesterday, I have realized a few things.
Your car is fine.
There is always someone out there who can drive it faster/better than you. Even if they have never driven it before.
I ran consistent 63.7-64sec laps, but I stuck someone who was 20 years older than I, with much more experience behind the wheel for a lap.
[b]He ran 2sec faster than I did in a COMPLETELY unfamiliar car ON HIS FIRST RUN and had never driven the car before in his life.[/b]
God help us if he had the time to get used to how it handled.
I'm already in the process of signing up for my next event and I'm not modding the car at all between now and then. I may get my toe zeroed out, since it's messed up, but I'm not switching to R-comps or anything crazy.
-- Dave[/QUOTE]
Who was it? :) (and was this in the car with the swap?)
Nice to see you out of OT AC! :lol:
--kC
Your car is fine.
There is always someone out there who can drive it faster/better than you. Even if they have never driven it before.
I ran consistent 63.7-64sec laps, but I stuck someone who was 20 years older than I, with much more experience behind the wheel for a lap.
[b]He ran 2sec faster than I did in a COMPLETELY unfamiliar car ON HIS FIRST RUN and had never driven the car before in his life.[/b]
God help us if he had the time to get used to how it handled.
I'm already in the process of signing up for my next event and I'm not modding the car at all between now and then. I may get my toe zeroed out, since it's messed up, but I'm not switching to R-comps or anything crazy.
-- Dave[/QUOTE]
Who was it? :) (and was this in the car with the swap?)
Nice to see you out of OT AC! :lol:
--kC
| jcroy66 | 07-31-2006 02:54 PM |
Javid wins Best Post of the Day!! :)
| AcquaCow | 07-31-2006 03:09 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Who was it? :) (and was this in the car with the swap?)
Nice to see you out of OT AC! :lol:
--kC[/QUOTE]
Gary (2WDrift).
This was indeed in the RSTi.
I got it haulin myself too:
[img]http://dave.oc7.org/images/misc/three.wheelin.jpg[/img]
Since there aren't any other RSTi's to compete against, I let Gary have the first run and re-do so that I would have an idea of what the car could do with a good driver.
After my 3rd run and some suggestions from Gary, I have a LOT of improvement to do. Lots of places where I should stay on throttle, hit the revlimiter instead of shifting, turn in later, trail brake, etc...
-- Dave
Nice to see you out of OT AC! :lol:
--kC[/QUOTE]
Gary (2WDrift).
This was indeed in the RSTi.
I got it haulin myself too:
[img]http://dave.oc7.org/images/misc/three.wheelin.jpg[/img]
Since there aren't any other RSTi's to compete against, I let Gary have the first run and re-do so that I would have an idea of what the car could do with a good driver.
After my 3rd run and some suggestions from Gary, I have a LOT of improvement to do. Lots of places where I should stay on throttle, hit the revlimiter instead of shifting, turn in later, trail brake, etc...
-- Dave
| AcquaCow | 07-31-2006 03:12 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]Javid wins Best Post of the Day!! :)[/QUOTE]
:lol:
yeah, his post was great.
-- Dave
:lol:
yeah, his post was great.
-- Dave
| Vampyr | 07-31-2006 03:26 PM |
yes... I get it. Being a better driver is going to get you farther than a better car. I understand that... can we move on now?!
Again... I'm NOT WANTING to throw money at the car. That's the reason I'm asking the %?@$*&%! question in the first place... what does it take to make a car (not the driver) a real competitor in BSP class?! If it truly DOES take alot of suspsension mods... then that will help me decide if I want to drop down to STU class.
Quit being so damn quick to jump on me about my experience. I know I need to drive more... I get it. YEESH!!! I wasn't planning on buying anything except a set of new tires, cause my stockers are starting to lose chunks of sidewall.
All I'm trying to decide here is if I should change out some parts to move to a different class (like STU), or if I should keep at it and continue to just race in the class I'm in. Becuase some day, I AM going to care about being fastest in my class, and when I do, I want my car to be prepared!
Like I said... maybe I worded the original question wrong. That has been corrected.
Again... I'm NOT WANTING to throw money at the car. That's the reason I'm asking the %?@$*&%! question in the first place... what does it take to make a car (not the driver) a real competitor in BSP class?! If it truly DOES take alot of suspsension mods... then that will help me decide if I want to drop down to STU class.
Quit being so damn quick to jump on me about my experience. I know I need to drive more... I get it. YEESH!!! I wasn't planning on buying anything except a set of new tires, cause my stockers are starting to lose chunks of sidewall.
All I'm trying to decide here is if I should change out some parts to move to a different class (like STU), or if I should keep at it and continue to just race in the class I'm in. Becuase some day, I AM going to care about being fastest in my class, and when I do, I want my car to be prepared!
Like I said... maybe I worded the original question wrong. That has been corrected.
| jcroy66 | 07-31-2006 03:38 PM |
"A lot of suspension mods" will be required to be nationally competitive in either BSP or STU.
| KC | 07-31-2006 03:39 PM |
[QUOTE] If it truly DOES take alot of suspsension mods... then that will help me decide if I want to drop down to STU class.[/QUOTE]We're just telling you stuff that eveidently you didn't want to hear, or else you wouldn't be so defensive now. With 10 minutes or less in seat time when I was starting out, I sure as hell didn't. You must be some super driver!
The rule book outlines the differences, but for all intents and purposes, the suspension modifications that one can do are pretty much similar in both BSP and STU.
The biggest differences between STU and BSP:
No boost changes in STU.
No cutting fenders in STU.
No R-Compounds in STU.
Max Tire width is 245 in STU.
No updating/backdating in STU.
No Intercooler upgrades in STU.
And theres more.
The rule book is your friend.
As far as what people are running? There's no one 'best' setup. (I know that's coming, so I'm going to nip that one in the bud).
Everyone out there runs different bits. What you need to do is go to the SCCA site [url]http://www.scca.com[/url] > Solo > National Tour and look up BSP results for the tours. Look up the peoples names that win in their STis in BSP. Then go to google, and do a search on their names. Usually, all the top people on the national level have a webpage somewhere talking abouit what they've done and chronicle what they do.
Example (plug): [url]http://www.rallydecals.com/kccar[/url] is a site that I used to update showing what I had done with the wagon, etc. I need to get on that. :)
--kC
The rule book outlines the differences, but for all intents and purposes, the suspension modifications that one can do are pretty much similar in both BSP and STU.
The biggest differences between STU and BSP:
No boost changes in STU.
No cutting fenders in STU.
No R-Compounds in STU.
Max Tire width is 245 in STU.
No updating/backdating in STU.
No Intercooler upgrades in STU.
And theres more.
The rule book is your friend.
As far as what people are running? There's no one 'best' setup. (I know that's coming, so I'm going to nip that one in the bud).
Everyone out there runs different bits. What you need to do is go to the SCCA site [url]http://www.scca.com[/url] > Solo > National Tour and look up BSP results for the tours. Look up the peoples names that win in their STis in BSP. Then go to google, and do a search on their names. Usually, all the top people on the national level have a webpage somewhere talking abouit what they've done and chronicle what they do.
Example (plug): [url]http://www.rallydecals.com/kccar[/url] is a site that I used to update showing what I had done with the wagon, etc. I need to get on that. :)
--kC
| bouchon | 07-31-2006 03:55 PM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr]
If it was up to me... I'd put the car back to stock and race in AS class, but there is 'no way in hell' my car could beat an S2000 (those things are fast in stock).
I'm simply trying to decide if I should learn to drive the car in BSP class, or give up and move to STU class.
Again... thanks for the posts regarding the OT.[/QUOTE]
Just to prove you that an AS 05 STI can beat a bunch of S2000 even driven by the big buys of the region. Look at Francois(me) in AS black STI. :D
[URL]http://solo.wdcr-scca.org/results/20060513.php[/URL]
STI is really a capable car in AS but I have to admit that on the handling side S2000 and Porsches are better designed that the STI. But it really doable to be competitive in that class.
I would just say the best and cheapest upgrade you can do is still getting enought seat time and improving your driving first(couple of years of autocross and HPDE experience). You can think of modifying, spending money, and bringing the car to a new level later on when you feel good enough to be able to exploit them.
It was just my thought. It is up to you now.
Thanks,
Francois, a guy that spent 10 of thousands dollars in cars for nothing before getting a good and competitive driver. :rolleyes:
If it was up to me... I'd put the car back to stock and race in AS class, but there is 'no way in hell' my car could beat an S2000 (those things are fast in stock).
I'm simply trying to decide if I should learn to drive the car in BSP class, or give up and move to STU class.
Again... thanks for the posts regarding the OT.[/QUOTE]
Just to prove you that an AS 05 STI can beat a bunch of S2000 even driven by the big buys of the region. Look at Francois(me) in AS black STI. :D
[URL]http://solo.wdcr-scca.org/results/20060513.php[/URL]
STI is really a capable car in AS but I have to admit that on the handling side S2000 and Porsches are better designed that the STI. But it really doable to be competitive in that class.
I would just say the best and cheapest upgrade you can do is still getting enought seat time and improving your driving first(couple of years of autocross and HPDE experience). You can think of modifying, spending money, and bringing the car to a new level later on when you feel good enough to be able to exploit them.
It was just my thought. It is up to you now.
Thanks,
Francois, a guy that spent 10 of thousands dollars in cars for nothing before getting a good and competitive driver. :rolleyes:
| Vampyr | 07-31-2006 04:00 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]"A lot of suspension mods" will be required to be nationally competitive in either BSP or STU.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. :)
Doesn't that only leaves 'A Stock' and 'Street Modified'... I don't have money to enter SM.... and A Stock would be very, very hard against vettes and those pesky Honda S2000s. :alien:
Is there a solo class that seems to favor the STi?!
Thanks. :)
Doesn't that only leaves 'A Stock' and 'Street Modified'... I don't have money to enter SM.... and A Stock would be very, very hard against vettes and those pesky Honda S2000s. :alien:
Is there a solo class that seems to favor the STi?!
| Butt Dyno | 07-31-2006 04:06 PM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr]Thanks. :)
Doesn't that only leaves 'A Stock' and 'Street Modified'... I don't have money to enter SM.... and A Stock would be very, very hard against vettes and those pesky Honda S2000s. :alien:
Is there a solo class that seems to favor the STi?![/QUOTE]
Have you thought about your region and what classes are well attended?
In DC for instance, we have pretty big STU and AS classes and you would have great competition in both. BSP isn't quite as popular but there is one national-level guy there who you could measure yourself against.
I'm in STX not only because it's a good place for the WRX, but also because we have 10-15 cars in STX all the time, and we have one especially fast driver (Greg Olsen) who we can compare ourselves to to figure out how far off we are from a "national" pace.
I think that's a pretty important variable... it's a lot more fun being in a hotly contested class. I know there are other BSP cars with $$ in them, but you haven't said anything about who's competing in STU and AS.
edit: I haven't gone past STX but my guess is, if you don't have the $$ for SM, you probably don't have the $$ for BSP.
john
Doesn't that only leaves 'A Stock' and 'Street Modified'... I don't have money to enter SM.... and A Stock would be very, very hard against vettes and those pesky Honda S2000s. :alien:
Is there a solo class that seems to favor the STi?![/QUOTE]
Have you thought about your region and what classes are well attended?
In DC for instance, we have pretty big STU and AS classes and you would have great competition in both. BSP isn't quite as popular but there is one national-level guy there who you could measure yourself against.
I'm in STX not only because it's a good place for the WRX, but also because we have 10-15 cars in STX all the time, and we have one especially fast driver (Greg Olsen) who we can compare ourselves to to figure out how far off we are from a "national" pace.
I think that's a pretty important variable... it's a lot more fun being in a hotly contested class. I know there are other BSP cars with $$ in them, but you haven't said anything about who's competing in STU and AS.
edit: I haven't gone past STX but my guess is, if you don't have the $$ for SM, you probably don't have the $$ for BSP.
john
| bouchon | 07-31-2006 04:12 PM |
At your level, go to AS. Improve and start beating S2000 and others. It is fun, you 'll see. ;)
And if you want spend some money, get a 29mm Whiteline front swaybar, harness belt ([url]http://www.soloracer.com/quickfit.html[/url]), and a set of wheels 17*8", 48mm offset (Rota torque for example) with good cheap R-compounds (RA1, victoracers) and you are good to go. It is a no brainer for now. You'll be surprise of what you can do with more experience and confidence in the car. :D
And if you want spend some money, get a 29mm Whiteline front swaybar, harness belt ([url]http://www.soloracer.com/quickfit.html[/url]), and a set of wheels 17*8", 48mm offset (Rota torque for example) with good cheap R-compounds (RA1, victoracers) and you are good to go. It is a no brainer for now. You'll be surprise of what you can do with more experience and confidence in the car. :D
| adhowe70 | 07-31-2006 04:14 PM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr]
Is there a solo class that seems to favor the STi?![/QUOTE]
Yeah, there's two classes. STU and BSP. :lol:
As far as suspension goes, in either BSP or STU... plan on spending $6k to $10k to figure out the suspension alone. Lots of testing and buying new parts / selling old parts is required to figure out a car. It will literally take a full season to sort the car as a noob.
Is there a solo class that seems to favor the STi?![/QUOTE]
Yeah, there's two classes. STU and BSP. :lol:
As far as suspension goes, in either BSP or STU... plan on spending $6k to $10k to figure out the suspension alone. Lots of testing and buying new parts / selling old parts is required to figure out a car. It will literally take a full season to sort the car as a noob.
| Student Driver | 07-31-2006 04:27 PM |
Well, I've run street tire classes for about 1.5 years now, and the cool thing about ST is that you see (well, hear) when you're screwing up pretty vividly. In addition, you manage your braking a bit more as well. All of the vets in our area (Phoenix, Tucson, and SV) recommend running on street tires so you get a feel for [i]what[/i] limits are, where they are, and what to do within them. Then, if you step up to R-comps, you do "more" with them (hard to explain, but I drove a FS Camaro with R-comps on concrete and it's just plain weird how it turns in and powers out :)).
Now, maybe you just want to have a car that's a lot of fun on a daily basis (boost mods and such) and have it competitive in your class. In that case, I would say get an AP and run the car in STU trim. That way you can learn the car, have parts on it that are more fun for daily driving, and get away "cheaper" in the near term. After seeing what "real" ESP/BSP cars look like, I don't think I'm going to that until I have another daily driver. :)
In the end, most people start in autocross with cars that aren't competitive, and later move into cars that are. They develop themselves, and then they develop the cars. To these people, the route you're taking is backwards and self defeating. If you have the perfect car, you will not learn through adversity and may not develop yourself to what you can be with less money and more time. But time requires patience, and are you that patient? ;)
Now, maybe you just want to have a car that's a lot of fun on a daily basis (boost mods and such) and have it competitive in your class. In that case, I would say get an AP and run the car in STU trim. That way you can learn the car, have parts on it that are more fun for daily driving, and get away "cheaper" in the near term. After seeing what "real" ESP/BSP cars look like, I don't think I'm going to that until I have another daily driver. :)
In the end, most people start in autocross with cars that aren't competitive, and later move into cars that are. They develop themselves, and then they develop the cars. To these people, the route you're taking is backwards and self defeating. If you have the perfect car, you will not learn through adversity and may not develop yourself to what you can be with less money and more time. But time requires patience, and are you that patient? ;)
| Vampyr | 07-31-2006 04:29 PM |
[QUOTE=bouchon]At your level, go to AS. Improve and start beating S2000 and others. It is fun, you 'll see. ;)
[/QUOTE]
Oh... it's fun even when I lose! :D But when I improve my time on all 4-5 runs, then I'm pretty stoked... cause it means I'm learning. ;)
Still though... I can't imagine a stock STi beating a stock S2000. Those cars are just silly fast.
Though I was surprised to see that some of my times were faster than an AS Dodge Viper that was at the event.
[/QUOTE]
Oh... it's fun even when I lose! :D But when I improve my time on all 4-5 runs, then I'm pretty stoked... cause it means I'm learning. ;)
Still though... I can't imagine a stock STi beating a stock S2000. Those cars are just silly fast.
Though I was surprised to see that some of my times were faster than an AS Dodge Viper that was at the event.
| jbrennen | 07-31-2006 04:48 PM |
[QUOTE=Student Driver]In the end, most people start in autocross with cars that aren't competitive, and later move into cars that are. They develop themselves, and then they develop the cars. To these people, the route you're taking is backwards and self defeating. If you have the perfect car, you will not learn through adversity and may not develop yourself to what you can be with less money and more time. But time requires patience, and are you that patient? ;)[/QUOTE]
I don't agree that driving a well-prepped car is self defeating. :(
Yes, you need to push yourself as a driver, but that basically comes down to seat time -- and if you want to be fast in Car X (whatever Car X is), it's hard to argue that anything is more effective than seat time in Car X. The fact that Car X might be a superb car for its class doesn't make that any less true.
I don't agree that driving a well-prepped car is self defeating. :(
Yes, you need to push yourself as a driver, but that basically comes down to seat time -- and if you want to be fast in Car X (whatever Car X is), it's hard to argue that anything is more effective than seat time in Car X. The fact that Car X might be a superb car for its class doesn't make that any less true.
| kwh29 | 07-31-2006 10:30 PM |
I feel that a novice driver NEEDS to run on a stock or near-stock car, including street tires, for at least a season or even two in order to learn what it feels like to actually be at the limit of adhesion and what driving a tire to the limit feels like vs beyond the limit. Learning the difference between slipping the right amount and sliding the tires too much is incredibly difficult without that time on street tires, where the line between the two is MUCH more broad.
Same deal with high-end suspensions. Don't waste your money on the beautiful zyzzx suspension until you can reliably predict what way you want to go on compression and rebound on both ends of the car with a lesser suspension. The very stiff stuff also takes away a lot of the forgiveness in a more stock suspension.
I can't even begin to name the number of people I've seen get involved in the sport, think that they can dominate with just the perfect mods, then burn out quickly because <surprise!> they had never tuned the nut behind the wheel. Starting with a good handling, forgiving car and street tires is the best way to build up the driver.
About the only mods I'd suggest, to improve on tire wear more than anything, is more front camber and if you must a big front sway bar. That's it. The stock tires on the STi are actually pretty good for regional use.
--Kevin H.
(/lurk mode off)
Same deal with high-end suspensions. Don't waste your money on the beautiful zyzzx suspension until you can reliably predict what way you want to go on compression and rebound on both ends of the car with a lesser suspension. The very stiff stuff also takes away a lot of the forgiveness in a more stock suspension.
I can't even begin to name the number of people I've seen get involved in the sport, think that they can dominate with just the perfect mods, then burn out quickly because <surprise!> they had never tuned the nut behind the wheel. Starting with a good handling, forgiving car and street tires is the best way to build up the driver.
About the only mods I'd suggest, to improve on tire wear more than anything, is more front camber and if you must a big front sway bar. That's it. The stock tires on the STi are actually pretty good for regional use.
--Kevin H.
(/lurk mode off)
| jbrennen | 08-01-2006 12:16 AM |
[QUOTE=kwh29]I feel that a novice driver NEEDS to run on a stock or near-stock car, including street tires, for at least a season or even two in order to learn what it feels like to actually be at the limit of adhesion and what driving a tire to the limit feels like vs beyond the limit. Learning the difference between slipping the right amount and sliding the tires too much is incredibly difficult without that time on street tires, where the line between the two is MUCH more broad.[/QUOTE]
Just to offer a conflicting opinion... I only had 5 autocrosses (in about 10 weeks) on street tires before running my sixth event on a brand new set of Hoosiers. Running on the Hoosiers, I felt like a blind man who could see for the first time. The grippier tires freed me up to actually think about things like placing my car where I wanted it, looking ahead beyond the next gate, etc., rather than exploriing the "squeal zone" of the stock tires.
Including myself, I can think of three competitors who all started as first time autoXers in the DC region in 2003 and all of whom had class victories -- in well-subscribed Stock classes -- within their first year. The one thing all of us had in common was an early commitment to R compounds -- and lots of seat time including schools.
Just to offer a conflicting opinion... I only had 5 autocrosses (in about 10 weeks) on street tires before running my sixth event on a brand new set of Hoosiers. Running on the Hoosiers, I felt like a blind man who could see for the first time. The grippier tires freed me up to actually think about things like placing my car where I wanted it, looking ahead beyond the next gate, etc., rather than exploriing the "squeal zone" of the stock tires.
Including myself, I can think of three competitors who all started as first time autoXers in the DC region in 2003 and all of whom had class victories -- in well-subscribed Stock classes -- within their first year. The one thing all of us had in common was an early commitment to R compounds -- and lots of seat time including schools.
| KC | 08-01-2006 08:04 AM |
[QUOTE=jbrennen]all of whom had class victories -- in well-subscribed Stock classes -- within their first year. The one thing all of us had in common was an early commitment to R compounds -- [B]and lots of seat time including schools[/B].[/QUOTE]Bolded the important part that 'showed you the light' as to HOW to use the r-comps.
--kC
--kC
| Vampyr | 08-01-2006 09:00 AM |
[QUOTE=jbrennen]Just to offer a conflicting opinion... I only had 5 autocrosses (in about 10 weeks) on street tires before running my sixth event on a brand new set of Hoosiers. ...[/QUOTE]
How did your street tires hold up through those events?!
What made you switch to Hoosiers?! (Did you get the same size? or were you allowed to go wider?)
How did your street tires hold up through those events?!
What made you switch to Hoosiers?! (Did you get the same size? or were you allowed to go wider?)
| jbrennen | 08-01-2006 12:10 PM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr]How did your street tires hold up through those events?![/QUOTE]
Just fine. I used them at two schools in the following two months after getting the Hoosiers. I wore a lot of tread off the tires, but that's to be expected.
[QUOTE=Vampyr]What made you switch to Hoosiers?! (Did you get the same size? or were you allowed to go wider?)[/QUOTE]
I switched from 235/45-17 street tires to 245/40-17 Hoosiers. I switched because all of the guys in the region who were nationally competitive were running Hoosiers (this was before the V710 was available). Budget wasn't an issue for me, so I made the switch.
Just fine. I used them at two schools in the following two months after getting the Hoosiers. I wore a lot of tread off the tires, but that's to be expected.
[QUOTE=Vampyr]What made you switch to Hoosiers?! (Did you get the same size? or were you allowed to go wider?)[/QUOTE]
I switched from 235/45-17 street tires to 245/40-17 Hoosiers. I switched because all of the guys in the region who were nationally competitive were running Hoosiers (this was before the V710 was available). Budget wasn't an issue for me, so I made the switch.
| ruggedman | 09-20-2006 09:38 PM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr;14717702]yes... I get it. Being a better driver is going to get you farther than a better car. I understand that... can we move on now?!
Quit being so damn quick to jump on me about my experience. I know I need to drive more... I get it. YEESH!!! I wasn't planning on buying anything except a set of new tires, cause my stockers are starting to lose chunks of sidewall..[/QUOTE]
Might I suggest that you run whatever class you want. Being competitive at this point doesn't seem to be your goal (which is right you should learn the car first and foremost). Might I suggest a learning setup first. Just get some Azenis for the car for events and go from there. From there once you feel you've begun to understand your car (about a full season) and are beginning to understand the ideas about driving your car you can start to add mods. Adding mods without learning first is a crapshoot since you need to tune your car to your needs. Think about learning to play the guitar, you wont even know how to tune the guitar at first, once you get more experiance with the sounds of the guitar you can then dial in the proper sound. Eventually you will get to the point where you hear at the exact moment when the guitar is out of key and make the adjustments needed. The car is the same thing you have to learn to drive it fully before you can know what it needs. Race tires are a good "first" auto-x mod, but like others have said until you know the limits of regular tires you really shouldn't go that route. Just my two cents:disco:
Quit being so damn quick to jump on me about my experience. I know I need to drive more... I get it. YEESH!!! I wasn't planning on buying anything except a set of new tires, cause my stockers are starting to lose chunks of sidewall..[/QUOTE]
Might I suggest that you run whatever class you want. Being competitive at this point doesn't seem to be your goal (which is right you should learn the car first and foremost). Might I suggest a learning setup first. Just get some Azenis for the car for events and go from there. From there once you feel you've begun to understand your car (about a full season) and are beginning to understand the ideas about driving your car you can start to add mods. Adding mods without learning first is a crapshoot since you need to tune your car to your needs. Think about learning to play the guitar, you wont even know how to tune the guitar at first, once you get more experiance with the sounds of the guitar you can then dial in the proper sound. Eventually you will get to the point where you hear at the exact moment when the guitar is out of key and make the adjustments needed. The car is the same thing you have to learn to drive it fully before you can know what it needs. Race tires are a good "first" auto-x mod, but like others have said until you know the limits of regular tires you really shouldn't go that route. Just my two cents:disco:
| AcquaCow | 09-20-2006 10:04 PM |
I let Gary (2WDrift) drive my car again at the subie challenge.
We each got 4 runs.
This is only his second time driving it...ever.
The results speak for themselves...
[code]Lin, Gary 01 RSTi 66.610+DNF 55.000 [b]52.299[/b] 52.898+1 52.299 0.166
Wujcik, David 01 RSTi 57.621 [b]54.439[/b] 55.106 71.682+DNF 54.439 0.441[/code]
He's still 2 sec faster than I am.
-- Dave
We each got 4 runs.
This is only his second time driving it...ever.
The results speak for themselves...
[code]Lin, Gary 01 RSTi 66.610+DNF 55.000 [b]52.299[/b] 52.898+1 52.299 0.166
Wujcik, David 01 RSTi 57.621 [b]54.439[/b] 55.106 71.682+DNF 54.439 0.441[/code]
He's still 2 sec faster than I am.
-- Dave
| REX8 | 09-20-2006 10:12 PM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr;14701691]please don't post useless responses... I don't have time to read crap responses like this.[/QUOTE]
You mean like your response...just as useless....and even more of a waste of your time....:lol:
You mean like your response...just as useless....and even more of a waste of your time....:lol:
| Stephanie | 09-20-2006 11:33 PM |
I know it's been said, but learn to drive your car as-is (or go back to stock if you don't like your current setup). Take driving schools, have experienced people ride along and offer suggestions.
Something I haven't seen mentioned yet: in order for you to improve you have to get rid of any pride and 'I know better than these people' mentality. Most people in solo will be more than happy to help you, but you have to be willing to listen, take to heart what's being said, humble yourself, and open your mind to new ways of thinking (slow in fast out, smoothness, looking ahead, etc). I have to push myself to keep focused and thinking while on course instead of just letting a course happen. I'm by no means fast, but I feel I have a good set of fundamentals (thank you Evo school and locals to the StL region) and that if I keep practicing, listening to others, and learn to be gutsier that one day I'm bound to be much quicker than I am now.
Another thing: don't get caught up in only driving your car; drive anything people will let you. When I want from a moderately prepped STX WRX to a regionally competitive SM2 miata it was painfully obvious that I had picked up many, many bad habbits in the WRX. I thought the whole breaking in a straight line thing was a joke until I experienced snap oversteer (turbo lag + mashed throttle= facing backwards before you know what happened). This season I'm back in the WRX and I could tell from day one that my driving had really changed and that I wasn't wrestling the car to get it to turn anymore because I was applying tactics learned in RWD that helped the AWD turn better.
Something I haven't seen mentioned yet: in order for you to improve you have to get rid of any pride and 'I know better than these people' mentality. Most people in solo will be more than happy to help you, but you have to be willing to listen, take to heart what's being said, humble yourself, and open your mind to new ways of thinking (slow in fast out, smoothness, looking ahead, etc). I have to push myself to keep focused and thinking while on course instead of just letting a course happen. I'm by no means fast, but I feel I have a good set of fundamentals (thank you Evo school and locals to the StL region) and that if I keep practicing, listening to others, and learn to be gutsier that one day I'm bound to be much quicker than I am now.
Another thing: don't get caught up in only driving your car; drive anything people will let you. When I want from a moderately prepped STX WRX to a regionally competitive SM2 miata it was painfully obvious that I had picked up many, many bad habbits in the WRX. I thought the whole breaking in a straight line thing was a joke until I experienced snap oversteer (turbo lag + mashed throttle= facing backwards before you know what happened). This season I'm back in the WRX and I could tell from day one that my driving had really changed and that I wasn't wrestling the car to get it to turn anymore because I was applying tactics learned in RWD that helped the AWD turn better.
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