| Coach | 05-12-2002 09:53 AM |
Schumacher Wins?
This is what I have to say about that! :monkey:
| Ferg | 05-12-2002 09:55 AM |
In the immortal words of one Mr. Johnny Rotten, "You ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"
Thanks to Ferrari for stealing whatever sportsmanship was left in the world.:mad: :monkey:
Ferg
Thanks to Ferrari for stealing whatever sportsmanship was left in the world.:mad: :monkey:
Ferg
| SteveS | 05-12-2002 10:05 AM |
That sucked some serious A S S. The best part was hearing the large crowd whistling, booing (definitely not a European thing normally), and giving the thumbs down! Michael didn't even want to take his helmet off.
Ferrari is definitely dominating, but this just plain sucks, especially when Michael has such a huge lead already.
Ferrari is definitely dominating, but this just plain sucks, especially when Michael has such a huge lead already.
| Coach | 05-12-2002 10:14 AM |
One can only hope that the higher ups at Ferrari will listen to the fans but I dobut that will happen give they have done this countless times.
Rubens easily winns pole, leads almost the whole race then pulls over for Shumi? You can't help but cheer fur the guy with the luck he has had this year. I guess things could be worse but give this guy a break. :confused:
Rubens easily winns pole, leads almost the whole race then pulls over for Shumi? You can't help but cheer fur the guy with the luck he has had this year. I guess things could be worse but give this guy a break. :confused:
| SWMOmilkman | 05-12-2002 10:19 AM |
agree with Coach
I agree with Coach. Ruben's had a very good weekend and because of his performance deserved the top step.
Upset in Missouri
Upset in Missouri
| Robin2 | 05-12-2002 10:45 AM |
Even the Italien and German press in attendance were booing!
This is disgraceful..... Rubens was the better driver for the whole weekend and proved it....
Robin
This is disgraceful..... Rubens was the better driver for the whole weekend and proved it....
Robin
| johnfelstead | 05-12-2002 10:47 AM |
expect more of the same. Ferrari has a policy of michael wins at any cost until the championship is sealed.
Dont think i'll bother watching live again, i just wasted 2 hours on a sunday afternoon.
I dont think i ever heard a crowd boo a winner in F1 before. Hugh PR cockup!
Dont think i'll bother watching live again, i just wasted 2 hours on a sunday afternoon.
I dont think i ever heard a crowd boo a winner in F1 before. Hugh PR cockup!
| Drexel | 05-12-2002 12:26 PM |
waste
I got up at 6:30 to watch.....man, i shouldve slept in.
:monkey:
:monkey:
| GRWRX | 05-12-2002 12:47 PM |
That was sad. I'm going to watch Nascar next. At the end of their races, they get mad and ram each other. None of this crap. Sorry about the crap talk.
| rupertberr | 05-12-2002 01:01 PM |
Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!:monkey:
| gtguy | 05-12-2002 01:14 PM |
I agree. My wife and I were stunned. The fact that Schumacher said that he was bummed about it doesn't help him in the least, in my opinion. If he were really that bummed about it, he should have got on the brakes and stayed behind Rubens.
On the other hand, as he said, Ferrari wants drivers and constructors championship, the sooner the better. Who finished first or second I think, doesn't matter to them in terms of constructors points, so why not have Michael take the win?
But there's no question about it...that sucked big time, right up there with Coulthard letting Hakkinen past that time, with the same reaction from press and fans.
Rubens showed a lot of class, but he outdrove Michael all weekend, and should have had the victory.
Follow this link for the entire press conference transcript:
[url]http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines02/05/s9454.html[/url]
Kevin
On the other hand, as he said, Ferrari wants drivers and constructors championship, the sooner the better. Who finished first or second I think, doesn't matter to them in terms of constructors points, so why not have Michael take the win?
But there's no question about it...that sucked big time, right up there with Coulthard letting Hakkinen past that time, with the same reaction from press and fans.
Rubens showed a lot of class, but he outdrove Michael all weekend, and should have had the victory.
Follow this link for the entire press conference transcript:
[url]http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines02/05/s9454.html[/url]
Kevin
| fastline | 05-12-2002 02:06 PM |
yes it is not fair and yes rubbens should have been let win but you all have to look at the bigger pic here. he was hierd for the #2 driver position which means he supports #1 driver. yes micheal is way the heck out front and most likely does not need those extra 2 points but the season is still young and things can change around and if micheal does not win the championship because he did not get those extra 2 points then Ferrari does not have a championship driver for the season someone does. once micheal takes the title then rubbens will have the chance to prove himself without team orders. everyone knows it sucks, everyone knows it was rubbens day that's why micheal pushed rubbens up on the podiaum and gave rubbens the 1st place trophy and that's why rubbens was in the middle in the press conforence. just rember how much of a business F1 is and how much money is involved in it.
Rubbens was the man this weekend and hats off to him!
now don't get me wrong i too was pissed when i saw that happen but then i thought about it a little. it sucks but it's the way F1 works
just my opion
and i know i can't spell :D
fastline
Rubbens was the man this weekend and hats off to him!
now don't get me wrong i too was pissed when i saw that happen but then i thought about it a little. it sucks but it's the way F1 works
just my opion
and i know i can't spell :D
fastline
| trinidriver | 05-12-2002 02:48 PM |
If you're the winningest driver in the world, you should have enough clout and balls to defy factory orders and stand on your own to defend your championship.
| wistful | 05-12-2002 03:10 PM |
but are you going to bet millions of dollars on it? Not to mention freakish things could happen. Remember Schumacher at Silverstone? *shrug*.... as bad PR as it is... years later we probably won't remember this as much, but instead remember how Schuey sealed his third championship in a row.
Don
Don
| 8Complex | 05-12-2002 03:33 PM |
Welcome to the 21st century... aka, the advertising century.
Corporate isn't happy unless they're #1-howmanyever drivers they have, because they want to see THEIR stuff out front all of the time.
If it was really all about the racing, then it'd be a fan's delight, but it isn't about racing to the sponsors and manufacturers participating, it's about seeing that one company and those logos up front regardlessly.
Money talks. Sucks, don't it? :(
Corporate isn't happy unless they're #1-howmanyever drivers they have, because they want to see THEIR stuff out front all of the time.
If it was really all about the racing, then it'd be a fan's delight, but it isn't about racing to the sponsors and manufacturers participating, it's about seeing that one company and those logos up front regardlessly.
Money talks. Sucks, don't it? :(
| WRSport | 05-12-2002 04:23 PM |
I just cancelled my US GP trip for this year.
Why bother.
Why bother.
| fastline | 05-12-2002 04:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trinidriver [/i]
[B]If you're the winningest driver in the world, you should have enough clout and balls to defy factory orders and stand on your own to defend your championship. [/B][/QUOTE]
and loose a muti million dollar a year job with a company you just signed a 2 year deal with i don't think anyone would.
fastline
[B]If you're the winningest driver in the world, you should have enough clout and balls to defy factory orders and stand on your own to defend your championship. [/B][/QUOTE]
and loose a muti million dollar a year job with a company you just signed a 2 year deal with i don't think anyone would.
fastline
| johnfelstead | 05-12-2002 05:04 PM |
I think that was the last straw for a lot of F1 fans.
Ferrari have brought the sport into disrepute and should be punished.
F1 right now is going through a tough time, Jordan fired 1/4 of its staff just 2 weeks ago (including one guy i know) because funding is so tight. Arrows and minardi are talking about not even competing next year.
Now how the hell does that display help F1 as a whole improve its lot and gain more sponsors. Many, many people will simply stop watching after that and will make it even more dificult for teams to gain support.
It's all well and good Ferrari wanting to tie up the championship but if thats at the cost to the sport as a whole, it shouldnt be allowed to happen.
The absolute minimum Ferrari should have done is kept rubens out for a lap behind the safety car and brought michael in, no one would have been the wiser. Instead they CHOSE to put two fingers up to everyone. Disgraceful.
Michael schumaker, if he wins this years title, will not deserve to be called the most successful driver in F1 history because he hasnt earned it. Prost, Senna, Mansel, Piquet, Fangio, Hill, Vielenuve etc etc all earned their championships because they beat all comers, including their team mates.
Schumaker cheated his way to his first title, he tried to do the same for his third but lost out and was actually struck from the championship completely for that year, how many remember that? The stats dont even reflect that, and they should! The guy has more tallent than most drivers to ever sit in a racing car, i was gaining a lot of respect for him of late for his performances but i have lost that now. I dont care what he says about having to take that win, he could have refused. What are Ferrari going to do? Fire him? I dont think so.
I wont watch another F1 race live, if i do watch i'll fast forward through a taped race so the advertisors wont get their moneys worth. Totaly disgusted. :mad:
Ferrari have brought the sport into disrepute and should be punished.
F1 right now is going through a tough time, Jordan fired 1/4 of its staff just 2 weeks ago (including one guy i know) because funding is so tight. Arrows and minardi are talking about not even competing next year.
Now how the hell does that display help F1 as a whole improve its lot and gain more sponsors. Many, many people will simply stop watching after that and will make it even more dificult for teams to gain support.
It's all well and good Ferrari wanting to tie up the championship but if thats at the cost to the sport as a whole, it shouldnt be allowed to happen.
The absolute minimum Ferrari should have done is kept rubens out for a lap behind the safety car and brought michael in, no one would have been the wiser. Instead they CHOSE to put two fingers up to everyone. Disgraceful.
Michael schumaker, if he wins this years title, will not deserve to be called the most successful driver in F1 history because he hasnt earned it. Prost, Senna, Mansel, Piquet, Fangio, Hill, Vielenuve etc etc all earned their championships because they beat all comers, including their team mates.
Schumaker cheated his way to his first title, he tried to do the same for his third but lost out and was actually struck from the championship completely for that year, how many remember that? The stats dont even reflect that, and they should! The guy has more tallent than most drivers to ever sit in a racing car, i was gaining a lot of respect for him of late for his performances but i have lost that now. I dont care what he says about having to take that win, he could have refused. What are Ferrari going to do? Fire him? I dont think so.
I wont watch another F1 race live, if i do watch i'll fast forward through a taped race so the advertisors wont get their moneys worth. Totaly disgusted. :mad:
| WRSport | 05-12-2002 05:15 PM |
We have seen this many time before, but today just pushed my button. As John has stated above, they could have done this more discretley at the least.
I also will not be wasteing time watching live races anymore(after 6 years of wakeing up at 3-6am)
This years title means jack now to myself.
I have never been so dispointed in F1 as I am today.
And this is 7 hours since watching what took place today.
I also will not be wasteing time watching live races anymore(after 6 years of wakeing up at 3-6am)
This years title means jack now to myself.
I have never been so dispointed in F1 as I am today.
And this is 7 hours since watching what took place today.
| SL2 | 05-12-2002 05:21 PM |
They should just rename it 'formula schumi'.
| KenG | 05-12-2002 06:04 PM |
The protest about this disgrace is world-wide. My own two $500 a piece tickets for the Silverstone GP will find new homes on Monday (will give them FOC to a couple of my customers) as I couldn't attend an event where there could be further 'cheating' by Ferrari.
I have no faith that Bernie Ecclestone will even mention it to Ferrari as he is corrupted by the same need for greed as some of the manufacturers.
John, a friend of mine has gone to work on software development for Aisatech and he can't see his job lasting beyond this season. My money on the three to go at the end of the season is Jordan, Minardi and Arrows. Richardson won't let BAR fail and he can get his hands on funding. Unless Jaguar improve I can't see Ford carrying on for more than one more season, despite what they are saying.
I think ITV were correct when they said that F1 will be a 5 manufacturer series within 2 years.
It is all moot however, as this season has already been decided for driver and manufacturer champions and Rubens will never be allowed to win a race unless Schumy has a DNF.
Ken
UK
I have no faith that Bernie Ecclestone will even mention it to Ferrari as he is corrupted by the same need for greed as some of the manufacturers.
John, a friend of mine has gone to work on software development for Aisatech and he can't see his job lasting beyond this season. My money on the three to go at the end of the season is Jordan, Minardi and Arrows. Richardson won't let BAR fail and he can get his hands on funding. Unless Jaguar improve I can't see Ford carrying on for more than one more season, despite what they are saying.
I think ITV were correct when they said that F1 will be a 5 manufacturer series within 2 years.
It is all moot however, as this season has already been decided for driver and manufacturer champions and Rubens will never be allowed to win a race unless Schumy has a DNF.
Ken
UK
| pio!pio! | 05-12-2002 07:02 PM |
Ferrari sux! if Monza would be the next race I wonder how the tifosi would react.
Rubens was robbed
Rubens was robbed
| Ferg | 05-12-2002 07:11 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRSport [/i]
[B]We have seen this many time before, but today just pushed my button. As John has stated above, they could have done this more discretley at the least.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I remember the 1998 Austrian Grand Prix when Irvine moved over to give Schumacher third with a few laps to go. Schumacher had run wide and damaged his car, then fought back through the field.
When they asked Eddie how Michael had gotten by, Irv simply said,"I had brake trouble."
...he was on the straightaway at the time of the "pass".
This whole thing has gotten me down. I can't wait to read what Roebuck has to say.
Ferg
(I'll keep watching the races, but only for Montoya and Fissi)
[B]We have seen this many time before, but today just pushed my button. As John has stated above, they could have done this more discretley at the least.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I remember the 1998 Austrian Grand Prix when Irvine moved over to give Schumacher third with a few laps to go. Schumacher had run wide and damaged his car, then fought back through the field.
When they asked Eddie how Michael had gotten by, Irv simply said,"I had brake trouble."
...he was on the straightaway at the time of the "pass".
This whole thing has gotten me down. I can't wait to read what Roebuck has to say.
Ferg
(I'll keep watching the races, but only for Montoya and Fissi)
| trinidriver | 05-12-2002 07:26 PM |
[QUOTE]and loose a muti million dollar a year job with a company you just signed a 2 year deal with i don't think anyone would. [/QUOTE]
I understand this aspect. But doesn't Ferrari need his talent and consistency just as much as he needs their money? Wasn't their policy different when they had Gilles Villeneuve and Didier Pironi? Best man wins (but not in that case IMHO).
I understand this aspect. But doesn't Ferrari need his talent and consistency just as much as he needs their money? Wasn't their policy different when they had Gilles Villeneuve and Didier Pironi? Best man wins (but not in that case IMHO).
| johnfelstead | 05-12-2002 07:39 PM |
your confusing barichello and michael.
Rubens re-signed this weekend for 2 years, not michael.
Rubens re-signed this weekend for 2 years, not michael.
| Ferg | 05-12-2002 07:52 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trinidriver [/i]
[B] Wasn't their policy different when they had Gilles Villeneuve and Didier Pironi? [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't get me started about THAT race.....Pironi's theivery was repaid at Hockenheim.
Not quite in full though. The circumstances were completely different and unique. Half the teams boycotted Imola that year. Maybe we need another FISA/FOCA war? Oh wait, one's a brewing.....
Ferg
[B] Wasn't their policy different when they had Gilles Villeneuve and Didier Pironi? [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't get me started about THAT race.....Pironi's theivery was repaid at Hockenheim.
Not quite in full though. The circumstances were completely different and unique. Half the teams boycotted Imola that year. Maybe we need another FISA/FOCA war? Oh wait, one's a brewing.....
Ferg
| WRSport | 05-12-2002 08:00 PM |
Question:
Ok so Michael stands on the podium and has Rubens stand at the top. If he felt so strongly about this why the hell didnt he stand up to the team orders and just not PASS Rubens?
I don't see how Michael can play both sides of what took place today.
Ok so Michael stands on the podium and has Rubens stand at the top. If he felt so strongly about this why the hell didnt he stand up to the team orders and just not PASS Rubens?
I don't see how Michael can play both sides of what took place today.
| fastline | 05-12-2002 09:07 PM |
lets say i pay you 33 million a year what are you going to do?
| WRSport | 05-12-2002 09:09 PM |
Do you think Michael would have been fired if he didn't pass rubens? I don't think so.
| johnfelstead | 05-12-2002 09:26 PM |
Michael could have said no. They couldnt do a thing about that!
He could even have said he didnt hear the instruction. He chose to pass!
In the post race interviews in the padock he actually said he hit the brakes and thought about not passing. Michael seems pretty upset about this himself, i think it's genuine. He is smart enough to know, after hearing the crowd reaction, that they have made a big mistake and his image will suffer as a consequence.
I still believe the FIA should act on this, F1 lost a lot of viewers today.
He could even have said he didnt hear the instruction. He chose to pass!
In the post race interviews in the padock he actually said he hit the brakes and thought about not passing. Michael seems pretty upset about this himself, i think it's genuine. He is smart enough to know, after hearing the crowd reaction, that they have made a big mistake and his image will suffer as a consequence.
I still believe the FIA should act on this, F1 lost a lot of viewers today.
| fastline | 05-12-2002 09:35 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRSport [/i]
[B]Do you think Michael would have been fired if he didn't pass rubens? I don't think so. [/B][/QUOTE]
that's not the point
why do you think micheal is where he is? because he does what he is suposed to do.
if he did not do it or if rubbens did not do it they may no be at Ferrari much longer and who does not want to be a member of the #1 team in F1 right now.
you guys i'm not saying it's right but you have to understand why this happens and why it will keep happening as long as it's in the rules. i to think that F1 may need to change this rule. remember you don't get the same money or status being second and until michael has the title wraped up there is a chance he could be second and not bring the title to Ferrari again.
fastline
[B]Do you think Michael would have been fired if he didn't pass rubens? I don't think so. [/B][/QUOTE]
that's not the point
why do you think micheal is where he is? because he does what he is suposed to do.
if he did not do it or if rubbens did not do it they may no be at Ferrari much longer and who does not want to be a member of the #1 team in F1 right now.
you guys i'm not saying it's right but you have to understand why this happens and why it will keep happening as long as it's in the rules. i to think that F1 may need to change this rule. remember you don't get the same money or status being second and until michael has the title wraped up there is a chance he could be second and not bring the title to Ferrari again.
fastline
| WRSport | 05-12-2002 09:56 PM |
I hear what your saying Fastline.
Now,
After watching the Speedchannel re-broadcast I'm even more livid.
The crowds reaction says it all.
Now,
After watching the Speedchannel re-broadcast I'm even more livid.
The crowds reaction says it all.
| JenisonWRX | 05-12-2002 10:46 PM |
Uhhh...hello people...
THAT IS THEIR ****ING JOB!!! They arnt doing this in their spare time...just for the sake of competing...its their JOB.
Obviously not many of you have competed more then a casual level. When money is involved...all bets are off. I personally think it was a good move for the team. Screw individuals...and what they think should be done for their own needs. Its what their doing for the team.
and I hate to break it to you..but this is not the first time this has happend...
If I was barichello I would have done the same thing...cause thats what they get paid for. **** pride...its your job...
EDIT: I also confused Rubens with barichello ... :lol:
THAT IS THEIR ****ING JOB!!! They arnt doing this in their spare time...just for the sake of competing...its their JOB.
Obviously not many of you have competed more then a casual level. When money is involved...all bets are off. I personally think it was a good move for the team. Screw individuals...and what they think should be done for their own needs. Its what their doing for the team.
and I hate to break it to you..but this is not the first time this has happend...
If I was barichello I would have done the same thing...cause thats what they get paid for. **** pride...its your job...
EDIT: I also confused Rubens with barichello ... :lol:
| Ferg | 05-12-2002 11:50 PM |
Jenison,
I think everyone here, regardless of what level they compete (or not) understands the reality of racing in the modern world. The days of "gentlemen racers" is long dead for better or worse. F1 is huge money, period. What most people are upset about is the feeling that what they watched wasn't genuine. It wasn't racing. Ferrari has the right (and the obligation) to insure it wins the championship, but they're doing it in a way that underminds the basic purpose of the sport, which is racing. And by doing that they're cheating the millions of TV viewers who pay the bills.
As several people have said (John, Gtguy), F1 is at a very critical point in it's life. Major manufactures have driven up costs by their involvement, making it all but impossible for the midfield teams to compete, or in the case of Prost, and maybe Minardi, Arrows, and Jordan , even survive. The very real possiblility of a break away series in 2008 could be the end of it all for F1. And as has happened with sportscar racing countless times, manufacturers eventually lose interest and pull out, leaving nothing.
Anyone remember Group C? Or the "GT" class at LeMans a few years ago? F1 could go the same route, which would be a horrible waste after fiftyone some years of the world Championship. In ten or twelve years, there may be nothing.
I will always use Williams in 1986, or McLaren in 1988 as examples of how a team should go racing. Both teams had THE dominant car of the season. In 1986, Williams lost the drivers title because it allowed Mansel and Piquet to race each other. In 1988, McLaren won 15 out of 16 races (and would have swept it all if not for the Monza Miracle) and they still allowed their drivers to race. No team orders.
Basically we have to accept the reality of it. But I don't think anyone would ever like it or call it racing. In a word, it's not.
Ferg
I think everyone here, regardless of what level they compete (or not) understands the reality of racing in the modern world. The days of "gentlemen racers" is long dead for better or worse. F1 is huge money, period. What most people are upset about is the feeling that what they watched wasn't genuine. It wasn't racing. Ferrari has the right (and the obligation) to insure it wins the championship, but they're doing it in a way that underminds the basic purpose of the sport, which is racing. And by doing that they're cheating the millions of TV viewers who pay the bills.
As several people have said (John, Gtguy), F1 is at a very critical point in it's life. Major manufactures have driven up costs by their involvement, making it all but impossible for the midfield teams to compete, or in the case of Prost, and maybe Minardi, Arrows, and Jordan , even survive. The very real possiblility of a break away series in 2008 could be the end of it all for F1. And as has happened with sportscar racing countless times, manufacturers eventually lose interest and pull out, leaving nothing.
Anyone remember Group C? Or the "GT" class at LeMans a few years ago? F1 could go the same route, which would be a horrible waste after fiftyone some years of the world Championship. In ten or twelve years, there may be nothing.
I will always use Williams in 1986, or McLaren in 1988 as examples of how a team should go racing. Both teams had THE dominant car of the season. In 1986, Williams lost the drivers title because it allowed Mansel and Piquet to race each other. In 1988, McLaren won 15 out of 16 races (and would have swept it all if not for the Monza Miracle) and they still allowed their drivers to race. No team orders.
Basically we have to accept the reality of it. But I don't think anyone would ever like it or call it racing. In a word, it's not.
Ferg
| Drexel | 05-13-2002 12:19 AM |
broadcast
Some questions asked of MS, not sure if these made the TV broadcast(from rpm.espn.com):
"If you win this championship now, what is it worth?" Schumacher was asked.
"I don't think this is a very nice question to ask now," he replied
"Isn't this a sport, isn't this about motor racing?" said the same questioner. There was silence.
"Do you want to win the world championship as the best driver or the driver with the best contract?" asked another. Again, no response.
regardless of all else, the last one kind of sums it up.:confused:
"If you win this championship now, what is it worth?" Schumacher was asked.
"I don't think this is a very nice question to ask now," he replied
"Isn't this a sport, isn't this about motor racing?" said the same questioner. There was silence.
"Do you want to win the world championship as the best driver or the driver with the best contract?" asked another. Again, no response.
regardless of all else, the last one kind of sums it up.:confused:
| JenisonWRX | 05-13-2002 12:28 AM |
Then I'll pose this question...
do you really believe that Micheal was really driving like he should because he knows his teammate is in front of him or vise versa? Had he really taken his car to the limit like he should say Mr Montoya was infront?
The fact remains...Ferrari won...
and if your the other manufacturers...you don't care either...all you want to do is win...and Ferrari is doing it.
And...the season is far from over...
;)
do you really believe that Micheal was really driving like he should because he knows his teammate is in front of him or vise versa? Had he really taken his car to the limit like he should say Mr Montoya was infront?
The fact remains...Ferrari won...
and if your the other manufacturers...you don't care either...all you want to do is win...and Ferrari is doing it.
And...the season is far from over...
;)
| rota wheels wrx | 05-13-2002 12:40 AM |
two words FERRARI SUCKS!!!
| JenisonWRX | 05-13-2002 12:44 AM |
Lets see...is MS the best driver so far this year....thats a fairly hard question to answer...
lets take a look at the times hes won by...
(1st) +18.63 against JM
(3rd) and had to regain this postion from last!
(1st) +0.59 against RS and who was almost a minute ahead of 3rd
(1st) +17.9 against RB
(1st) +35.6 against JM
so lemme think...so far does he diserve the best driver award.....ummmm yeah...
lets take a look at the times hes won by...
(1st) +18.63 against JM
(3rd) and had to regain this postion from last!
(1st) +0.59 against RS and who was almost a minute ahead of 3rd
(1st) +17.9 against RB
(1st) +35.6 against JM
so lemme think...so far does he diserve the best driver award.....ummmm yeah...
| trinidriver | 05-13-2002 01:30 AM |
I understand that these are professionals. Are you more devoted to your profession or to your company? I care about my company a great deal, but I'm not going to deface the whole reason I got into my profession to please them. Especially if I'm already financially independent (as MS certainly ought to be).
| meebs | 05-13-2002 02:20 AM |
Jenison... ah. hmm... you seem to be missing the point completly.
Yes Ferrari wants to win. Of course, no one is disputing that teams want to win... but the team was already AT MAX POINTS REGARDLESS!! It was a Ferrari one-two no matter who was in front.
And for all the people who try to use the whole, "oh it's his job" reason... Don't forget this is a SHOW put on for the FANS. Their job is to entertain, and to sell products THROUGH ENTERTAINMENT(read: a race)... Let's just say Ferrari as a company has lost a bit of clout with this consumer.
This thing just really has me hot, and anyone even trying to justify it looks really foolish.
Yes Ferrari wants to win. Of course, no one is disputing that teams want to win... but the team was already AT MAX POINTS REGARDLESS!! It was a Ferrari one-two no matter who was in front.
And for all the people who try to use the whole, "oh it's his job" reason... Don't forget this is a SHOW put on for the FANS. Their job is to entertain, and to sell products THROUGH ENTERTAINMENT(read: a race)... Let's just say Ferrari as a company has lost a bit of clout with this consumer.
This thing just really has me hot, and anyone even trying to justify it looks really foolish.
| Marquis | 05-13-2002 07:32 AM |
The whole deal was shady to me. Rubens owned Schuey, but team orders were thrown in his face. I hate it.
In the end, if Michael would have won the championship without this win, then he's still a champ in my book (unlike so many others, I'm not anti-MS). If somehow it turns out this win gives him the extra points he needs, then Jean Todt needs to be tarred and feathered (or if you're the sponsors paying the bills, maybe given a raise... :mad: ).
In the end, it seems utterly useless. I seriously doubt the points will be necessary to win the driver's title, and I'm sure it just guts Rubens to have to give away a win.
In the end, if Michael would have won the championship without this win, then he's still a champ in my book (unlike so many others, I'm not anti-MS). If somehow it turns out this win gives him the extra points he needs, then Jean Todt needs to be tarred and feathered (or if you're the sponsors paying the bills, maybe given a raise... :mad: ).
In the end, it seems utterly useless. I seriously doubt the points will be necessary to win the driver's title, and I'm sure it just guts Rubens to have to give away a win.
| Ferg | 05-13-2002 07:55 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JenisonWRX [/i]
[B]
do you really believe that Micheal was really driving like he should because he knows his teammate is in front of him or vise versa? Had he really taken his car to the limit like he should say Mr Montoya was infront?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think that just proves the point more. If they're not racing, then why bother? As it stands, Schu doesn't have to worry about racing four people. Rubens is contracted not to race him. The Saubers have customer Ferrari engines and would never do anything to jepordize that (I don't blame them on that). Ralf has shown on more than one occasion that his ability to race goes on vacation when he's behind his brother (Canada 2001 excluded).
Schumacher is the best driver in the world right now, no doubt there really, but as long as he's in this position of NOT having to race every other car on the grid, he will never be held in the same regard as Prost, Senna, Clark, Fangio, Moss, and Stewart. He will end up like Nelson Piquet, three time world champ, but somehow cheaper for it (sorry to any Piquet fans, but it's the truth).
And nobody try to tell me that this doesn't matter to Schumacher. Remember he cried when he tied Senna's win record.
Ferg
[B]
do you really believe that Micheal was really driving like he should because he knows his teammate is in front of him or vise versa? Had he really taken his car to the limit like he should say Mr Montoya was infront?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think that just proves the point more. If they're not racing, then why bother? As it stands, Schu doesn't have to worry about racing four people. Rubens is contracted not to race him. The Saubers have customer Ferrari engines and would never do anything to jepordize that (I don't blame them on that). Ralf has shown on more than one occasion that his ability to race goes on vacation when he's behind his brother (Canada 2001 excluded).
Schumacher is the best driver in the world right now, no doubt there really, but as long as he's in this position of NOT having to race every other car on the grid, he will never be held in the same regard as Prost, Senna, Clark, Fangio, Moss, and Stewart. He will end up like Nelson Piquet, three time world champ, but somehow cheaper for it (sorry to any Piquet fans, but it's the truth).
And nobody try to tell me that this doesn't matter to Schumacher. Remember he cried when he tied Senna's win record.
Ferg
| gtguy | 05-13-2002 08:15 AM |
What's unfortunate is that Michael hasn't really had a sustained rival with an equally fast car. He had Villeneuve, but Jacques had a vastly superior Williams. Damon Hill wasn't anywhere near the driver he needed to be to make his rivalry with Michael truly interesting, unfortunately. Hakkinen kicked out the jams with a fast-as-hell McLaren, but as soon as Ferrari began to narrow the performance gap, the Michael show began anew.
Tragically, we were deprived of what could have been a stellar season, with Senna and Schumacher knocking heads, because of the Imola tragedy.
I do, however, think that Michael will indeed go down as one of history's best. When you look at the record of sustained brilliance, the way that he pulled Ferrari up by its bootstraps, and the rivals that he's dispatched or held at bay, either through psychological factors (Hill, Ralf), or driving skill (Jacques, Mika), it's quite impressive, and doesn't deserve any sort of an asterisk.
The Saubers couldn't race with the Ferraris anyhow. The thing about Ralf is unfortunate, I agree. Ultimately, he might be more talented than Juan, but Juan has less psychological baggage to contend with when he hops in the cockpit to do battle with the red cars.
Michael, I think, is at his best when he doesn't have anything approaching the best car. How he got that dog of a Ferrari anywhere near Jacques' Williams that year is amazing. Ditto for how he held the McLarens at bay, when Ferrari was improving, but still slower than both Mika and DC's cars.
I think that at the end of the day, I return to my previously-cited Michael Jordan analogy. People dislike competitors like the two Michaels (don't forget that Senna wasn't liked by many, either) because they are heartless bastards who will indeed to anything to win. This ruthlessness is impressive, admirable, and scary, even while making it easy to dislike them.
I think we forget that Ferrari wouldn't be where it is were it not for Schumacher. No, he didn't build the cars, or set up the aero packages, or do any of the work. But I do think that his arrival, and his demanding style, set a tone. No other driver alive would have been able to do at that team what he did. I wonder if that didn't have something to do with Rubens' joy in the face of all the criticism of the team's move---the cognizance that if he were teamed with any other driver on the grid, he wouldn't be anywhere near where he is in the Ferrari.
I still think that the whole situation was sad, and that Rubens was deprived of a great opportunity, even if we can see why it happened, and why Ferrari could convince itself that it needed to happen.
Kevin
Tragically, we were deprived of what could have been a stellar season, with Senna and Schumacher knocking heads, because of the Imola tragedy.
I do, however, think that Michael will indeed go down as one of history's best. When you look at the record of sustained brilliance, the way that he pulled Ferrari up by its bootstraps, and the rivals that he's dispatched or held at bay, either through psychological factors (Hill, Ralf), or driving skill (Jacques, Mika), it's quite impressive, and doesn't deserve any sort of an asterisk.
The Saubers couldn't race with the Ferraris anyhow. The thing about Ralf is unfortunate, I agree. Ultimately, he might be more talented than Juan, but Juan has less psychological baggage to contend with when he hops in the cockpit to do battle with the red cars.
Michael, I think, is at his best when he doesn't have anything approaching the best car. How he got that dog of a Ferrari anywhere near Jacques' Williams that year is amazing. Ditto for how he held the McLarens at bay, when Ferrari was improving, but still slower than both Mika and DC's cars.
I think that at the end of the day, I return to my previously-cited Michael Jordan analogy. People dislike competitors like the two Michaels (don't forget that Senna wasn't liked by many, either) because they are heartless bastards who will indeed to anything to win. This ruthlessness is impressive, admirable, and scary, even while making it easy to dislike them.
I think we forget that Ferrari wouldn't be where it is were it not for Schumacher. No, he didn't build the cars, or set up the aero packages, or do any of the work. But I do think that his arrival, and his demanding style, set a tone. No other driver alive would have been able to do at that team what he did. I wonder if that didn't have something to do with Rubens' joy in the face of all the criticism of the team's move---the cognizance that if he were teamed with any other driver on the grid, he wouldn't be anywhere near where he is in the Ferrari.
I still think that the whole situation was sad, and that Rubens was deprived of a great opportunity, even if we can see why it happened, and why Ferrari could convince itself that it needed to happen.
Kevin
| Ferg | 05-13-2002 10:41 AM |
...and the Opinion from the Greatest Driver to Never Have Won the World Championship?
Sir Stirling Moss: "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did not want any part of it."
--from Autosport.com
thank you Stirling
Ferg
Sir Stirling Moss: "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did not want any part of it."
--from Autosport.com
thank you Stirling
Ferg
| TimStevens | 05-13-2002 10:56 AM |
Great quote... glad to see someone with a voice shares the sentiment of the majority of the fans.
-tim
-tim
| callawayv | 05-13-2002 11:46 AM |
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, this has ALWAYS existed in F1 , Fangio, EVEN Sterling Moss. I don't like what happened yesterday either, but it's the way it's always been.
Unless it goes to single car teams, this is the way it is.
Unless it goes to single car teams, this is the way it is.
| JenisonWRX | 05-13-2002 12:07 PM |
There is no such thing as bad press...
Hell I even heard on the Bob and Tom show this morning about the F1 event...and that NEVER happens.
Personally....if I was the owner of a team...I would want my two top drivers to have a competition between each other. Unleash the hounds and see what happens. Ether way...they are driving my car...so what do I care.
but thats just me...
Hell I even heard on the Bob and Tom show this morning about the F1 event...and that NEVER happens.
Personally....if I was the owner of a team...I would want my two top drivers to have a competition between each other. Unleash the hounds and see what happens. Ether way...they are driving my car...so what do I care.
but thats just me...
| gtguy | 05-13-2002 12:31 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JenisonWRX [/i]
[B]There is no such thing as bad press...
Hell I even heard on the Bob and Tom show this morning about the F1 event...and that NEVER happens.
Personally....if I was the owner of a team...I would want my two top drivers to have a competition between each other. Unleash the hounds and see what happens. Ether way...they are driving my car...so what do I care.
but thats just me... [/B][/QUOTE]
At the end of the day, it's all speculation. Stirling Moss comes from a different era of motorsport, one not as tainted by money and the desire for victory at all costs. This explains much of his overstatement. It was indeed a time of the "gentleman racer." Not to minimize his comments, but things are (fortunately or un, depends upon your perspective) different today. The Ferrari thing isn't armageddon, and I don't think that the red cars are "tainted." They're still exemplary achievements, and fast as hell. Schumacher and Barrichello are still excellent racing drivers.
It's like when Niki Lauda was scoffing at modern F1 cars, saying that "a monkey could drive one." He then got into the Jaguar, and made like a dervish during his drive. "Eek, eek," indeed.
Drivers within a team racing each other like fiends happened through practice, qualifying, and during the race. Schumacher and Barrichello were knocking heads with full fury. Look at qualifying, especially. You better believe Rubens was loving that Michael couldn't better his time. And during the race when they were trading fastest laps? Ohhh, yeah. That was racing, indeed.
As Schumacher himself said, the only problem was the "last 100 meters."
Ask Eddie Jordan if he'd rather have Jean Todt's problem, or his own drivers crashing into each other. Ask Ron Dennis the same thing.
Nobody likes a front runner, which explains the piling on. And the most difficult thing about the Ferrari decision, is how it was rubbed in our faces. That's what makes it so appalling, I think.
Ferrari has been called before the FIA on June 26, and what will most likely happen is that Constructors points will be stripped, but Drivers points will remain intact. But that's in three races. It could be all over but the shouting by then, barring anything weird.
Kevin
[B]There is no such thing as bad press...
Hell I even heard on the Bob and Tom show this morning about the F1 event...and that NEVER happens.
Personally....if I was the owner of a team...I would want my two top drivers to have a competition between each other. Unleash the hounds and see what happens. Ether way...they are driving my car...so what do I care.
but thats just me... [/B][/QUOTE]
At the end of the day, it's all speculation. Stirling Moss comes from a different era of motorsport, one not as tainted by money and the desire for victory at all costs. This explains much of his overstatement. It was indeed a time of the "gentleman racer." Not to minimize his comments, but things are (fortunately or un, depends upon your perspective) different today. The Ferrari thing isn't armageddon, and I don't think that the red cars are "tainted." They're still exemplary achievements, and fast as hell. Schumacher and Barrichello are still excellent racing drivers.
It's like when Niki Lauda was scoffing at modern F1 cars, saying that "a monkey could drive one." He then got into the Jaguar, and made like a dervish during his drive. "Eek, eek," indeed.
Drivers within a team racing each other like fiends happened through practice, qualifying, and during the race. Schumacher and Barrichello were knocking heads with full fury. Look at qualifying, especially. You better believe Rubens was loving that Michael couldn't better his time. And during the race when they were trading fastest laps? Ohhh, yeah. That was racing, indeed.
As Schumacher himself said, the only problem was the "last 100 meters."
Ask Eddie Jordan if he'd rather have Jean Todt's problem, or his own drivers crashing into each other. Ask Ron Dennis the same thing.
Nobody likes a front runner, which explains the piling on. And the most difficult thing about the Ferrari decision, is how it was rubbed in our faces. That's what makes it so appalling, I think.
Ferrari has been called before the FIA on June 26, and what will most likely happen is that Constructors points will be stripped, but Drivers points will remain intact. But that's in three races. It could be all over but the shouting by then, barring anything weird.
Kevin
| Dr. WOT | 05-13-2002 01:15 PM |
MS should be DQ'd and lose his 10 pts.
I have a feeling the FIA is going to get very sanctimonious and hit Ferrari with a big penalty, which in reality will just be an excuse to make the championship close so they can have an exciting finish.
I have a feeling the FIA is going to get very sanctimonious and hit Ferrari with a big penalty, which in reality will just be an excuse to make the championship close so they can have an exciting finish.
| ChrisW | 05-13-2002 01:22 PM |
poor Rubens
My father live in Brazil... Poor Rubens... he has been ostrizised by the brazilian press. At the moment, Ferrari is a 4 letter word in Brazil. I pity anyone who drives a Ferrari in Rio:lol:
| mclmk8d | 05-13-2002 02:16 PM |
MS is two-faced!
Today's f1-live.com has an excellent commentary by one of the writers and other articles
[url]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/[/url]
...plus see this from speedtv.com
[url]http://www.speedtv.com/auto/?lvl=3a&cat=17&id=1450[/url]
This is for you, MS:monkey: :mad:
[url]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/[/url]
...plus see this from speedtv.com
[url]http://www.speedtv.com/auto/?lvl=3a&cat=17&id=1450[/url]
This is for you, MS:monkey: :mad:
| gtguy | 05-13-2002 04:06 PM |
I don't think that this was Schumacher's fault or Schumacher's decision, for the record. He seemed to be as aghast about the whole thing as Barrichello. They both seemed to be employees on Sunday. I can see giving the monkey finger to Ferrari or Jean Todt if you're so inclined, but based on everything that I have read about the incident, it isn't a Schumacher thang going on.
I know he's the driver that people love to hate, but I don't think he's to blame on this one...
Kevin
I know he's the driver that people love to hate, but I don't think he's to blame on this one...
Kevin
| dynoguy | 05-13-2002 09:44 PM |
think about this what if michael wins the championship anyway but ruben looses 2nd place in the drivers piont at the end of the seasaon by those pionts he did'nt get?
now that would be ferrari justice!
now that would be ferrari justice!
| TampaWRX | 05-13-2002 10:05 PM |
I think that it's fascinating to see people landing on the side of Ferrari. I've been going back and forth with a few of you guys on other threads digging into this same subject and it's just scary.
I'm only 24 years old. Today, I feel cheated by the one thing in this world I still held in some regard, motor racing. It's not the first time something like this has happened, but it is the first time it has been done so blatantly and with such utter disregard for fans all around the world.
Kevin Spacey's character in the movie Seven made an interesting point when discussing the motivation for his madness with Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman's characters. He basically stated that only in a world this $hitty, could such loathsome people and deranged perspectives on reality be tolerated, sympathized with and in some cases encouraged. So it is with modern motorsport. Only when the racing and the majority of its fans have become so jaded and cynical, can such an action as giving away a win be deemd acceptable, and in some cases INTELLIGENT, behavior.
Seeing it with my own eyes, I felt like I was watching one of my private balloons of idealism being set alight by the disgusting drudgery of "reality" and money. I long for the days when racing was a gentleman's sport and it took brave men, not calculating cowards, to win races. It's telling that Michael Schumacher, when seated in Lauda's championship winning Ferrari, admitted to being afraid of the thing, feeling exposed and vulnerable. For him, racing is simply a calculated risk which brings him great fame and money, not a pursuit of passion.
I admire Alain Prost, Jackie Stewart, Jimmy Clark and Juan Fangio. I sit in awe of stories relating the feats of Tazio Nuvolari and Bernd Rosemayer, Alberto Ascari and Stirling Moss. For those that know their history, these are the names worth holding up in the air. These were great drivers in the greatest ages of motorsport, long before Bernie and Max came along to "fix" things. In Michael Schumacher and his entourage, I see pompous men with no concern for the old names or the history of Formula One. Enzo Ferrari himself would not have allowed such a ridiculous display. As has been said before, Pironi had to STEAL his win from Villeneuve.
In the end, there is no honor among thieves and almost everyone is stealing something these days. Finally, after tumbling for so long, Formula One has finally hit its logical bottom and in doing so, may have stolen the one thing its fans could not afford to give up, belief that what they are watching somehow echoes of what had been. Sadly, I've seen the light and realize that the only thing "Ferrari" in the modern team is the prancing horse on the yellow crest, pasted to the side of cars that are no longer even painted Ferrari Red.
Sympathize and downplay all you want guys. What happened on Sunday is more than I will stand. Formula One is truly dead as a sport to me and I hope many others. :( :mad:
PS Just so everyone knows, Tazio Nuvolari once conspired with many of his fellow drivers to fix a race, but the story behind this incident ultimately justifies their actions in my opinion, but that's a story for another time and place. Do a search on Tazio Nuvolari at Google and you'll find the story I'm talking aobut. I've typed enough for now. :(
I'm only 24 years old. Today, I feel cheated by the one thing in this world I still held in some regard, motor racing. It's not the first time something like this has happened, but it is the first time it has been done so blatantly and with such utter disregard for fans all around the world.
Kevin Spacey's character in the movie Seven made an interesting point when discussing the motivation for his madness with Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman's characters. He basically stated that only in a world this $hitty, could such loathsome people and deranged perspectives on reality be tolerated, sympathized with and in some cases encouraged. So it is with modern motorsport. Only when the racing and the majority of its fans have become so jaded and cynical, can such an action as giving away a win be deemd acceptable, and in some cases INTELLIGENT, behavior.
Seeing it with my own eyes, I felt like I was watching one of my private balloons of idealism being set alight by the disgusting drudgery of "reality" and money. I long for the days when racing was a gentleman's sport and it took brave men, not calculating cowards, to win races. It's telling that Michael Schumacher, when seated in Lauda's championship winning Ferrari, admitted to being afraid of the thing, feeling exposed and vulnerable. For him, racing is simply a calculated risk which brings him great fame and money, not a pursuit of passion.
I admire Alain Prost, Jackie Stewart, Jimmy Clark and Juan Fangio. I sit in awe of stories relating the feats of Tazio Nuvolari and Bernd Rosemayer, Alberto Ascari and Stirling Moss. For those that know their history, these are the names worth holding up in the air. These were great drivers in the greatest ages of motorsport, long before Bernie and Max came along to "fix" things. In Michael Schumacher and his entourage, I see pompous men with no concern for the old names or the history of Formula One. Enzo Ferrari himself would not have allowed such a ridiculous display. As has been said before, Pironi had to STEAL his win from Villeneuve.
In the end, there is no honor among thieves and almost everyone is stealing something these days. Finally, after tumbling for so long, Formula One has finally hit its logical bottom and in doing so, may have stolen the one thing its fans could not afford to give up, belief that what they are watching somehow echoes of what had been. Sadly, I've seen the light and realize that the only thing "Ferrari" in the modern team is the prancing horse on the yellow crest, pasted to the side of cars that are no longer even painted Ferrari Red.
Sympathize and downplay all you want guys. What happened on Sunday is more than I will stand. Formula One is truly dead as a sport to me and I hope many others. :( :mad:
PS Just so everyone knows, Tazio Nuvolari once conspired with many of his fellow drivers to fix a race, but the story behind this incident ultimately justifies their actions in my opinion, but that's a story for another time and place. Do a search on Tazio Nuvolari at Google and you'll find the story I'm talking aobut. I've typed enough for now. :(
| gtguy | 05-14-2002 12:22 AM |
Boys and girls, moms and dads, it's just a race. Swear to God.
As David Coulthard said today, F1 teams are like a Tour de France team, in that everyone sacrifices to get the one man across to victory. Montoya didn't see what the huge deal was, saying "You either do it, or find another drive."
I was bummed for Rubens, and equally bummed for Michael, but I'm still a huge F1 fan, it's still the pinnacle of motorsports, and I'll be there at Indy, sporting my Ferrari hat that came from the Man himself.
Call me a cynic, pity me, whatever, but Ferrari's only sin is that they rubbed our faces in what anyone who has been following the sport in its entirety (Ecclestone, Kirch, how the hell did Yoong get a drive...oh, wait...money) has long suspected. Avarice rules. As a friend of mine once said to me, "Welcome to the real world, Pollyanna!" :lol:
I think that the furor has moved from reaction to overreaction. And then there's the outrage from the people who bet on Rubens to win, in Brazil and Sweden. One presumes that they are pretty outraged. They had money on the line, after all! Please.
Ferrari did what they felt they needed to do at the end of that race. Neither driver liked it, but both are employees. World sport has changed since the days of Stirling Moss, just as football has changed since the days of Jim Brown, as young, fast, highly paid running backs laugh at his cranky pronouncements about how the game "used to be."
Well, it's not like that any more, and perhaps the real death here, is that illusion in the minds of many, that modern-day F1 drivers differed from the Nuvolaris, Fangios and Mosses only in the quality of their machinery. This is, and isn't true. Don't kid yourself. It takes just as big a pair to drive a modern F1 car as it did those spider-legged tubs of yore. The speeds are higher, the limits are greater, the edge is finer. But the characteristics of great drivers haven't changed. Schumacher would have been brilliant 50 years ago. Ditto for Villeneuve and Montoya.
But every other Sunday, just as they did from the beginning, men strap themselves into a piece of machinery that, if all doesn't go well, can kill them. That they do it, and do it well is to be applauded, irrespective of any team's chicanery. It is that bravery and skill that make Formula 1 for me.
Ferrari screwed up, and they know it. They might never admit it, but they know it. But I, for one, have things in perspective. I don't think that anyone is coming to the defense of Ferrari...at least I'm not. But I am coming to the defense of a sport, that is still a sport. It hasn't died. Perhaps some illusions have, and that's too bad. But watch that race tape again, and watch Rubens and Michael trading off fastest laps. Watch Michael trying to reel Rubens in, and Rubens scything through traffic that, for a change, balked Michael, who could only watch as Barrichello's lead grew. Marvel at Villeneuve, who took that unmitigaed dog of a BAR and flogged it until it died in an expensive, smoking heap.
No, F1 is very much alive, and the perfect test, Monaco, with its narrowness and unforgiving character looms, to test the drivers and machines.
I'll be there.
Kevin
As David Coulthard said today, F1 teams are like a Tour de France team, in that everyone sacrifices to get the one man across to victory. Montoya didn't see what the huge deal was, saying "You either do it, or find another drive."
I was bummed for Rubens, and equally bummed for Michael, but I'm still a huge F1 fan, it's still the pinnacle of motorsports, and I'll be there at Indy, sporting my Ferrari hat that came from the Man himself.
Call me a cynic, pity me, whatever, but Ferrari's only sin is that they rubbed our faces in what anyone who has been following the sport in its entirety (Ecclestone, Kirch, how the hell did Yoong get a drive...oh, wait...money) has long suspected. Avarice rules. As a friend of mine once said to me, "Welcome to the real world, Pollyanna!" :lol:
I think that the furor has moved from reaction to overreaction. And then there's the outrage from the people who bet on Rubens to win, in Brazil and Sweden. One presumes that they are pretty outraged. They had money on the line, after all! Please.
Ferrari did what they felt they needed to do at the end of that race. Neither driver liked it, but both are employees. World sport has changed since the days of Stirling Moss, just as football has changed since the days of Jim Brown, as young, fast, highly paid running backs laugh at his cranky pronouncements about how the game "used to be."
Well, it's not like that any more, and perhaps the real death here, is that illusion in the minds of many, that modern-day F1 drivers differed from the Nuvolaris, Fangios and Mosses only in the quality of their machinery. This is, and isn't true. Don't kid yourself. It takes just as big a pair to drive a modern F1 car as it did those spider-legged tubs of yore. The speeds are higher, the limits are greater, the edge is finer. But the characteristics of great drivers haven't changed. Schumacher would have been brilliant 50 years ago. Ditto for Villeneuve and Montoya.
But every other Sunday, just as they did from the beginning, men strap themselves into a piece of machinery that, if all doesn't go well, can kill them. That they do it, and do it well is to be applauded, irrespective of any team's chicanery. It is that bravery and skill that make Formula 1 for me.
Ferrari screwed up, and they know it. They might never admit it, but they know it. But I, for one, have things in perspective. I don't think that anyone is coming to the defense of Ferrari...at least I'm not. But I am coming to the defense of a sport, that is still a sport. It hasn't died. Perhaps some illusions have, and that's too bad. But watch that race tape again, and watch Rubens and Michael trading off fastest laps. Watch Michael trying to reel Rubens in, and Rubens scything through traffic that, for a change, balked Michael, who could only watch as Barrichello's lead grew. Marvel at Villeneuve, who took that unmitigaed dog of a BAR and flogged it until it died in an expensive, smoking heap.
No, F1 is very much alive, and the perfect test, Monaco, with its narrowness and unforgiving character looms, to test the drivers and machines.
I'll be there.
Kevin
| Marquis | 05-14-2002 06:55 AM |
[QUOTE]It's telling that Michael Schumacher, when seated in Lauda's championship winning Ferrari, admitted to being afraid of the thing, feeling exposed and vulnerable.[/QUOTE]
Of course he did, just as we would feel exposed and vulnerable sitting seatbelt-less in an original Model-T. I'm sure Lauda would feel the same way sitting in one of Fangio's Maseratis.
Are you saying that the cars shouldn't be as safe as they are?
Of course he did, just as we would feel exposed and vulnerable sitting seatbelt-less in an original Model-T. I'm sure Lauda would feel the same way sitting in one of Fangio's Maseratis.
Are you saying that the cars shouldn't be as safe as they are?
| TampaWRX | 05-14-2002 08:26 AM |
Things have changed and all for the worse. We have been cheated, especially those of us who are too young to have seen TRUE racers battling it out across the world in cars that were both extremely dangerous and utterly beautiful. The Lotus 49, the old Alfas, the odd looking Auto Unions of the 30's. Drivers in that era treated the sport with respect and truly were honorable men on the track.
I think motorsport is too safe today and it allows for this kind of behavior, where a driver can take everything for granted. We all have to die of something after all and I would rather think of a racecar driver as a daredevil and gladiator, than a glorified TV actor doing as the script tells him and taking his ridiculous pay check in return.
The Old Guard of F1 is right, motorsport as a sport died long ago. Today, it is only business. Jimmy Clark made 1500 pounds sterling in 1966, a meager sum even then, but he drove on the limit every race anyway while NEVER asking for more money. Several executives at Ford had to convince him that he should be paid a higher salary!! Would anyone in F1 even suit up for an equivalent amount these days? No, because like so many of its fans, there is no real passion for the ideals of Formula One left in the game today. There seems to be only a hunger for money on one side and a hunger for "drama" on the other. The only drama left to F1 is whether or not Michael's car will hold together so that he can walk to victory once again.
I don't need to be constantly reminded of Jacque Villeneuve's drive. There are probably few Americans that have watched Villeneuve more than I have, but it ended in nothing and Ferrari dismantled any romance surrounding the race with this ridiculous result. About Rubens and Michael exchanging fast laps, Ross Brawn said that it was never a race and both drivers were told not to push, so you have yet another drama that wasn't.
You can worship the sorry excuse for racing that is F1 today if you so choose, but the show is simply that, show business. There is no true competition anymore. The only thing we can hope for is a catastrophic turn of events for Ferrari. I won't be watching and don't really care at this point.
Edit - because I got a little carried away :D
I think motorsport is too safe today and it allows for this kind of behavior, where a driver can take everything for granted. We all have to die of something after all and I would rather think of a racecar driver as a daredevil and gladiator, than a glorified TV actor doing as the script tells him and taking his ridiculous pay check in return.
The Old Guard of F1 is right, motorsport as a sport died long ago. Today, it is only business. Jimmy Clark made 1500 pounds sterling in 1966, a meager sum even then, but he drove on the limit every race anyway while NEVER asking for more money. Several executives at Ford had to convince him that he should be paid a higher salary!! Would anyone in F1 even suit up for an equivalent amount these days? No, because like so many of its fans, there is no real passion for the ideals of Formula One left in the game today. There seems to be only a hunger for money on one side and a hunger for "drama" on the other. The only drama left to F1 is whether or not Michael's car will hold together so that he can walk to victory once again.
I don't need to be constantly reminded of Jacque Villeneuve's drive. There are probably few Americans that have watched Villeneuve more than I have, but it ended in nothing and Ferrari dismantled any romance surrounding the race with this ridiculous result. About Rubens and Michael exchanging fast laps, Ross Brawn said that it was never a race and both drivers were told not to push, so you have yet another drama that wasn't.
You can worship the sorry excuse for racing that is F1 today if you so choose, but the show is simply that, show business. There is no true competition anymore. The only thing we can hope for is a catastrophic turn of events for Ferrari. I won't be watching and don't really care at this point.
Edit - because I got a little carried away :D
| gtguy | 05-14-2002 09:45 AM |
Man, not much to say to that. But tell Takuma Sato that they were acting. And Nick Heidfeld. I think that their scripts got messed up! :eek:
And take it from a guy who's hot lapped in Formula Fords and Formula Dodges, not to mention a NASCAR ride (wun ate hunnert...be Petteh!), motorsports is not "too safe." No way, no how, and I wasn't anywhere near the limits of F1 cars, which are staggering. The cars are safer indeed, but the speeds are higher, as are the limits. This does indeed free the drivers to go racing, but the same was true of the "glory days." The cars have always been as safe as the constructors could make them.
As for the fast laps being part of the script, take a look at the lap record from last year, and the qualifying times. No, Michael and Rubens were pushing indeed. Don't think for a moment that if Michael had the speed to pass Rubens, he wouldn't have, on the track. But he didn't, which is what makes that result a shame, but still understandable from Ferrari's perspective. How flawed that perspective is rests with each individual.
And heck, no none of today's drivers would race for the comparative pittance that yesterday's drivers raced for. It's a different time, with a different economy. Then again, perhaps they would. I don't know what 1500 pounds back in the day would be worth today, but you probably could find someone to drive an F1 car for that equivalent amount. Heck, a prat like Yoong is paying to drive his Minardi! :lol:
The F2002 is quite an achievement. It isn't Ferrari's fault that they built a kick-ass racing car. As with the Benetton and Williams and McLaren days, let the other teams catch up. That's what F1 is about. If Schumacher walks away from the field, hurrah. He deserves to. He and Ferrari have put an amazing amount of work into getting that car good. That team was a doormat at one time, and probably will be again, if the cycle of F1 holds true to form. That's what it's all about on the track...getting faster than the next guy.
And I'll leave you alone with your desires for catastrophe to befall Ferrari. I still have the tape of Senna at Imola, and it still makes me cry. When Sato wasn't moving, my house was silent. Perhaps anti-Ferrari/Schumacher fans can wish for mechanical gremlins or some such, but I have seen catastrophe in Formula One, and never wish to again.
It's okay to get carried away. Motorsports inspire passion in its fans, and well it should. It's pretty amazing stuff that these guys do. But whether people watch or not, there will be plenty of racing left in this season, I think, even if the red cars run off and hide. Hey, if this were NASCAR, a sport with a very different appeal, they'd find some way to legislate, to slow the Ferraris down. I still think that F1 is the best of the best, greed and cynicism notwithstanding. Money has undoubtedly corrupted the ideals of the sport. I think that everyone agrees on that point, which is why Yoong is allowed in a car (sorry to mention him again).
But I think that there are still gladiators around, and they still do battle every other Sunday, team orders or not. Do I worship them? Nope. Do their skills impress and amaze me? Yep. Am I entertained? Yep. Call me simple, but I don't ask for a whole lot more. It's sport, but it is also entertainment on a world scale, make no mistake about it. Heck, team orders happen in WRC all the time, and you don't see a similar ruckus raised, which surprises me.
Feel free to comment, but there's little more that I can say. I've enjoyed the exchange, and thanks for keeping it civil. That wouldn't have happened in other forums on this site. And I'm agreeing to disagree on some points, but I am in full agreement of some of your other points.
Kevin
And take it from a guy who's hot lapped in Formula Fords and Formula Dodges, not to mention a NASCAR ride (wun ate hunnert...be Petteh!), motorsports is not "too safe." No way, no how, and I wasn't anywhere near the limits of F1 cars, which are staggering. The cars are safer indeed, but the speeds are higher, as are the limits. This does indeed free the drivers to go racing, but the same was true of the "glory days." The cars have always been as safe as the constructors could make them.
As for the fast laps being part of the script, take a look at the lap record from last year, and the qualifying times. No, Michael and Rubens were pushing indeed. Don't think for a moment that if Michael had the speed to pass Rubens, he wouldn't have, on the track. But he didn't, which is what makes that result a shame, but still understandable from Ferrari's perspective. How flawed that perspective is rests with each individual.
And heck, no none of today's drivers would race for the comparative pittance that yesterday's drivers raced for. It's a different time, with a different economy. Then again, perhaps they would. I don't know what 1500 pounds back in the day would be worth today, but you probably could find someone to drive an F1 car for that equivalent amount. Heck, a prat like Yoong is paying to drive his Minardi! :lol:
The F2002 is quite an achievement. It isn't Ferrari's fault that they built a kick-ass racing car. As with the Benetton and Williams and McLaren days, let the other teams catch up. That's what F1 is about. If Schumacher walks away from the field, hurrah. He deserves to. He and Ferrari have put an amazing amount of work into getting that car good. That team was a doormat at one time, and probably will be again, if the cycle of F1 holds true to form. That's what it's all about on the track...getting faster than the next guy.
And I'll leave you alone with your desires for catastrophe to befall Ferrari. I still have the tape of Senna at Imola, and it still makes me cry. When Sato wasn't moving, my house was silent. Perhaps anti-Ferrari/Schumacher fans can wish for mechanical gremlins or some such, but I have seen catastrophe in Formula One, and never wish to again.
It's okay to get carried away. Motorsports inspire passion in its fans, and well it should. It's pretty amazing stuff that these guys do. But whether people watch or not, there will be plenty of racing left in this season, I think, even if the red cars run off and hide. Hey, if this were NASCAR, a sport with a very different appeal, they'd find some way to legislate, to slow the Ferraris down. I still think that F1 is the best of the best, greed and cynicism notwithstanding. Money has undoubtedly corrupted the ideals of the sport. I think that everyone agrees on that point, which is why Yoong is allowed in a car (sorry to mention him again).
But I think that there are still gladiators around, and they still do battle every other Sunday, team orders or not. Do I worship them? Nope. Do their skills impress and amaze me? Yep. Am I entertained? Yep. Call me simple, but I don't ask for a whole lot more. It's sport, but it is also entertainment on a world scale, make no mistake about it. Heck, team orders happen in WRC all the time, and you don't see a similar ruckus raised, which surprises me.
Feel free to comment, but there's little more that I can say. I've enjoyed the exchange, and thanks for keeping it civil. That wouldn't have happened in other forums on this site. And I'm agreeing to disagree on some points, but I am in full agreement of some of your other points.
Kevin
| Marquis | 05-14-2002 10:04 AM |
Very well put, Kevin. I especially like the reinforcement that NO, the sport is not "too safe". That idea just sounds ridiculous to me. Perhaps back in the romantic days of F1, it was cool to risk your life every second you were sitting in an Auto Union. But I'd like to believe the sport can be entertaining with limited fear that any one of the drivers will die on that day. It sure is to me, and I'm glad that fairly major accidents can happen (and they do) with good chances that the driver will survive and be healthy enough to race another day. I don't much like people dying for my enjoyment.
| TampaWRX | 05-14-2002 10:19 AM |
I think I'm about spent myself, kevin. :D By catastrophe, I did orginally mean something horrible happening to the drivers, but after cooling off a bit, I would just like to see the wheels come off the proverbial cart.
I am not the kind of person to really consider or care about Ferrari's view of the matter. This is kind of an aside, but in a world of empathy and "feeling of pain", I like to think of myself as something of a throwback. Being pig headed and holding fast to your ideals isn't a bad thing, as far as I'm concerned, unless of course you are harming or obstructing another person's path to ascension in doing so. I just hate politics in general because of its base meaninglessness in the real world and what Ferrari does on track is highly political. Politicians are in most ways cowards and politics is typically a cowardly exercise. Taking a win away and allowing said win to be taken away just offends me on some base level. It's like fixing a basketball game or letting the deal of a lifetime slip through your fingers,because someone told you that your coworker was more deserving. When that happens, I have to ask "What's the point". For me, there is no point.
I've done a few laps in Skip Barber Dodges myself and I can say that I felt plenty safe. Things really only get fun when the car is sliding around. Would I have done it without belts? Probably. It's no more dangerous than riding a motorcycle, really, and not having belts on probably would have kept me from pushing the thing into a spin the two times I did send it off track. I realize than a modern F1 car would be impossible to drive if the driver were not strapped in, but that does not make modern drivers any braver or smarter than those who drove in the fifties and sixties. What is life without risk? Boring. :D
Keep in mind that I'm a single male with no children and little responsibility beyond bills, so we might be looking at things from different perspectives. :)
I am not the kind of person to really consider or care about Ferrari's view of the matter. This is kind of an aside, but in a world of empathy and "feeling of pain", I like to think of myself as something of a throwback. Being pig headed and holding fast to your ideals isn't a bad thing, as far as I'm concerned, unless of course you are harming or obstructing another person's path to ascension in doing so. I just hate politics in general because of its base meaninglessness in the real world and what Ferrari does on track is highly political. Politicians are in most ways cowards and politics is typically a cowardly exercise. Taking a win away and allowing said win to be taken away just offends me on some base level. It's like fixing a basketball game or letting the deal of a lifetime slip through your fingers,because someone told you that your coworker was more deserving. When that happens, I have to ask "What's the point". For me, there is no point.
I've done a few laps in Skip Barber Dodges myself and I can say that I felt plenty safe. Things really only get fun when the car is sliding around. Would I have done it without belts? Probably. It's no more dangerous than riding a motorcycle, really, and not having belts on probably would have kept me from pushing the thing into a spin the two times I did send it off track. I realize than a modern F1 car would be impossible to drive if the driver were not strapped in, but that does not make modern drivers any braver or smarter than those who drove in the fifties and sixties. What is life without risk? Boring. :D
Keep in mind that I'm a single male with no children and little responsibility beyond bills, so we might be looking at things from different perspectives. :)
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét