| brian123 | 10-30-2006 12:12 AM |
the shark fins and upper spoiler on an STI
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anybody know where i can get the shark fins and the upper STI spoiler... such as...
[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m312/gaperb/gallery_articles_SubaruSTIValvoline.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m312/gaperb/gallery_articles_SubaruSTIValvoline.jpg[/IMG]
| 007WRX | 10-30-2006 12:44 AM |
Uper spoiler comes with the sti, check subaru genuine parts, the diffuser or w.e i have no clue.
I love that set up though
I love that set up though
| brian123 | 10-30-2006 01:03 AM |
i know... its very sexy and mean... i was thinking subaru parts also...
| Jon347 | 10-30-2006 01:07 AM |
The roof fin you can get it from seibon or chargespeed. I have the chargespeed one.
| veightkiller | 10-30-2006 01:07 AM |
[url]www.chargespeed.com[/url] i dont know if its mounted on the roof or window
| 007WRX | 10-30-2006 01:09 AM |
looks like roof.
| nxwrxfx | 10-30-2006 01:33 AM |
What rear bumper is that?? Looks pretty mean.
And +1 for Subaru Parts for the upper spoiler
And +1 for Subaru Parts for the upper spoiler
| 007WRX | 10-30-2006 01:44 AM |
Chargespeed body kit it say here. [url]http://www.jtuned.com/content/templates/statics.aspx?articleid=489&zoneid=1[/url]
| captain_dingaling | 10-30-2006 02:05 AM |
can someone school me?
don't they essentially do the same thing?
don't they essentially do the same thing?
| STiShawn | 10-30-2006 08:21 AM |
in essence yes, but different ways
| WRX8XB | 10-30-2006 08:24 AM |
no they don't do the same thing.
the "fins" are there to smooth the air going over the roof, while the spoiler "catches" the air and forces it down into the path of the rear spoiler.
the "fins" are there to smooth the air going over the roof, while the spoiler "catches" the air and forces it down into the path of the rear spoiler.
| brian123 | 10-30-2006 08:34 AM |
that does make great sense, thank's for the great info
| TeRonde | 10-30-2006 10:20 AM |
I would imagine the "fins" are actually vortex generators. If that is the case, they don't neccesarily smooth the air, they actually keep it attached to the surface of the car thereby reducing drag.
| STiShawn | 10-30-2006 10:24 AM |
they both cause air to flow down over the back window, one trips the boundry layer the other catches it as it breaks..so they do the same thing
| theicewall | 10-30-2006 10:46 AM |
[QUOTE=WRX8XB;15798060]no they don't do the same thing.
the "fins" are there to smooth the air going over the roof, while the spoiler "catches" the air and forces it down into the path of the rear spoiler.[/QUOTE]
The fins dont smooth anything out, they cause the air to be more turbulent actually. They result in small little tail stream vortecies. Vortex generators are simply small rectangular plates that jut above the wing surface of an aircraft or in our case a car. They look like tiny little wings jutting up perpendicular to the wing itself. As air moves past them, vortices are created off the tips of the generators. These vortices interact with the rest of the air moving over the wing to speed it up and help reduce the possibility of separation of the air, so that all air that hit the front of the vehicle at the same time ends up at the tail of the vehicle at the same time.
the "fins" are there to smooth the air going over the roof, while the spoiler "catches" the air and forces it down into the path of the rear spoiler.[/QUOTE]
The fins dont smooth anything out, they cause the air to be more turbulent actually. They result in small little tail stream vortecies. Vortex generators are simply small rectangular plates that jut above the wing surface of an aircraft or in our case a car. They look like tiny little wings jutting up perpendicular to the wing itself. As air moves past them, vortices are created off the tips of the generators. These vortices interact with the rest of the air moving over the wing to speed it up and help reduce the possibility of separation of the air, so that all air that hit the front of the vehicle at the same time ends up at the tail of the vehicle at the same time.
| TeRonde | 10-30-2006 11:42 AM |
I am pleasantly surprised to find the depth of aeronautical knowledge on this board. Even better, you folks explain it in plane (hah!) english so that a layman can understand it. Either you folks weren't sleeping during high school physics or we have some pilots and aeronautical engineers on board.
| WRX8XB | 10-30-2006 11:48 AM |
I appreciate the correction guys. My mistake.
| theicewall | 10-30-2006 02:25 PM |
[QUOTE=WRX8XB;15800092]I appreciate the correction guys. My mistake.[/QUOTE]
Its all good. No worries. I dont know how I feel about having both like that car, but the zerosports car has a replacement for the 06 vane that has fins on it already which I think is pretty sweet.
Its all good. No worries. I dont know how I feel about having both like that car, but the zerosports car has a replacement for the 06 vane that has fins on it already which I think is pretty sweet.
| STiShawn | 10-30-2006 02:48 PM |
agreed ^
| STi-JDM | 10-30-2006 02:52 PM |
I have the Chargespeed roof fins for sale... PM me for price... :)
| 2dino | 10-30-2006 03:52 PM |
from the horse's mouth
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[url]http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf[/url]
| twizzstyle | 10-30-2006 05:45 PM |
[QUOTE=theicewall;15799356]The fins dont smooth anything out, they cause the air to be more turbulent actually. They result in small little tail stream vortecies. Vortex generators are simply small rectangular plates that jut above the wing surface of an aircraft or in our case a car. They look like tiny little wings jutting up perpendicular to the wing itself. As air moves past them, vortices are created off the tips of the generators. These vortices interact with the rest of the air moving over the wing to speed it up and help reduce the possibility of separation of the air, so that all air that hit the front of the vehicle at the same time ends up at the tail of the vehicle at the same time.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, you're close but don't quite have it. The vortex generators in NO way speed up the air. The entire purpose is to re-energize the boundary layer which then keeps it attached. But keeping the boundary from separating, you drastically reduce drag, and increase the performance of the rear spoiler by having more air to it.
The statement that "all air that hit the front of the vehicle at the same time ends up at the tail of the vehicle at the same time" is entirely untrue though, that doesn't happen, and vortex generators have nothing to do with this at all.
And yes, I am an Aeronautical Engineer ;)
Hmmm, you're close but don't quite have it. The vortex generators in NO way speed up the air. The entire purpose is to re-energize the boundary layer which then keeps it attached. But keeping the boundary from separating, you drastically reduce drag, and increase the performance of the rear spoiler by having more air to it.
The statement that "all air that hit the front of the vehicle at the same time ends up at the tail of the vehicle at the same time" is entirely untrue though, that doesn't happen, and vortex generators have nothing to do with this at all.
And yes, I am an Aeronautical Engineer ;)
| dibblejr | 10-30-2006 06:10 PM |
Ebay for the roof fins $150-180
Jay-R
Jay-R
| Samirr76 | 10-30-2006 06:13 PM |
together they add eleventy billion horsepower.
| theicewall | 10-30-2006 07:20 PM |
[QUOTE=twizzstyle;15805213]Hmmm, you're close but don't quite have it. The vortex generators in NO way speed up the air. The entire purpose is to re-energize the boundary layer which then keeps it attached. But keeping the boundary from separating, you drastically reduce drag, and increase the performance of the rear spoiler by having more air to it.
The statement that "all air that hit the front of the vehicle at the same time ends up at the tail of the vehicle at the same time" is entirely untrue though, that doesn't happen, and vortex generators have nothing to do with this at all.
And yes, I am an Aeronautical Engineer ;)[/QUOTE]
I was sort of generalizing the concept to make it easier to understand, but I do see your point. Instead of saying speed up the air, I should have said prevent air above other air from being slowed down by it. Also, the air may not travel from the front of the car to the back of the car and arrive at the same time, but it wants to, which is why we have lift and downforce depending on the shape of the object. Correct me if I'm wrong, you're the engineer.
The statement that "all air that hit the front of the vehicle at the same time ends up at the tail of the vehicle at the same time" is entirely untrue though, that doesn't happen, and vortex generators have nothing to do with this at all.
And yes, I am an Aeronautical Engineer ;)[/QUOTE]
I was sort of generalizing the concept to make it easier to understand, but I do see your point. Instead of saying speed up the air, I should have said prevent air above other air from being slowed down by it. Also, the air may not travel from the front of the car to the back of the car and arrive at the same time, but it wants to, which is why we have lift and downforce depending on the shape of the object. Correct me if I'm wrong, you're the engineer.
| TeRonde | 10-30-2006 08:43 PM |
The local airflow of the vortex generators (V.G.s) actually does increase in speed. The reason we have a vortex generated is due to high/low pressure existing on the V.G. (as well as a speed difference...Bernouli's deal) When the air meets at the end of the V.G., the high/low pressures meet and a resulting mixing of the air causes the vortex. You can get a great look at these vortices on a somewhat foggy/rainy day at you local airport. Watch the wingtips of the landing aircraft (and on some the flaps) to get a good look a vortices in action. Specifically, look at the heavier jet aircraft.
P.S. I'm not engineer, all I need to know is this. Pull up to go up, pull up more to go down. Sorry....little aviation humor. :) Twizzstyle, keep up the informative posts (but remember, nothing tougher than Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators). Not all of us are still in school current on this gunk ;)
P.S. I'm not engineer, all I need to know is this. Pull up to go up, pull up more to go down. Sorry....little aviation humor. :) Twizzstyle, keep up the informative posts (but remember, nothing tougher than Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators). Not all of us are still in school current on this gunk ;)
| iheartmysuby | 10-30-2006 09:08 PM |
loooks uber gay
| drees | 10-31-2006 02:47 AM |
[QUOTE=2dino;15803644][url]http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]
If after reading that paper and you can't spot the design flaws with the Chargespeed "vortex generator", you should definitely buy one to rice your Subaru out.
If after reading that paper and you can't spot the design flaws with the Chargespeed "vortex generator", you should definitely buy one to rice your Subaru out.
| i_c_the_light | 10-31-2006 04:38 AM |
I thought those fins are standard. JDM does, I think.
| STiShawn | 10-31-2006 01:44 PM |
awesome technical paper, no way are the e-bay ones going to be as effective as a mistu one, the cross section is all wrong, the placement is wron..just read the document.
any chance of sourcing the subaru one for the "roof vane"
*edit*
After looking at (some of, not all) the e-bay ones, I think with some proper tuft testing on the WRX body and some skill they "could" be made to be more effective. You'd have to find where the boundary layer starts to seperate, and at what height it does so then place them accordingly. Now the angles relative the the CL may differ from the evo but their effective conditions are broad (read tech paper). I may pick one up and next spring do some aero testing...
any chance of sourcing the subaru one for the "roof vane"
*edit*
After looking at (some of, not all) the e-bay ones, I think with some proper tuft testing on the WRX body and some skill they "could" be made to be more effective. You'd have to find where the boundary layer starts to seperate, and at what height it does so then place them accordingly. Now the angles relative the the CL may differ from the evo but their effective conditions are broad (read tech paper). I may pick one up and next spring do some aero testing...
| boostless | 10-31-2006 10:41 PM |
For you all that have WRX/STi's...It's all looks (I am an EVO owner). The vortex generator DOES create some drag, but it increases downforce over the rear spoiler. The essay by mitsu (pg 1) explains how they actually studied the angles of the vanes, as well as how tall they should be in order to find the perfect balance of lower drag but increased downforce. The increased downforce is realized at speeds up toward 100mph.
The "vortex generator" for your cars DO NOT do anything functional other than produce drag and bite on the EVO look. But they sell them at Autobacs also... :rolleyes:
The "vortex generator" for your cars DO NOT do anything functional other than produce drag and bite on the EVO look. But they sell them at Autobacs also... :rolleyes:
| Foxy | 10-31-2006 11:19 PM |
The last page of that mitsu essay says that the VGs decrease drag by .006 or something.
| STiShawn | 11-01-2006 08:18 AM |
I agree with boostless for the most part, but I also think some practical applications of aerodynamic research "could" make them functional...we'll see if I can land one for real cheap (already found it just need to get it) and then I'll run some tests to see what happens...should be fun.
| culmination | 11-01-2006 12:02 PM |
overkill?!
| drees | 11-01-2006 01:32 PM |
[QUOTE=STiShawn;15825319]I agree with boostless for the most part, but I also think some practical applications of aerodynamic research "could" make them functional...we'll see if I can land one for real cheap (already found it just need to get it) and then I'll run some tests to see what happens...should be fun.[/QUOTE]A chase car, video camera and some yarn should be enough to tell you whether or not the vortex generator does anything. But I would not waste time with the Chargespeed knockoff since the fins are completely the wrong shape and in the wrong position to be functional vortex generators. You are better off making your own.
To start, you need to figure out which direction the wind flows across the rear of the roof at the top of the window. You can do this with yarn and the video camera, or you can also get a viscous fluid (like oil or liquid soap) and with strategically placed dots and some straight line highway speed driving.
The fins themselves should be twice as long as they are high, 5mm thick and 20-25mm tall. These fins should be placed at a 15* angle to the airflow around them, 100mm in front of where airflow separator occurs at the rear window and spaced 100mm apart.
To start, you need to figure out which direction the wind flows across the rear of the roof at the top of the window. You can do this with yarn and the video camera, or you can also get a viscous fluid (like oil or liquid soap) and with strategically placed dots and some straight line highway speed driving.
The fins themselves should be twice as long as they are high, 5mm thick and 20-25mm tall. These fins should be placed at a 15* angle to the airflow around them, 100mm in front of where airflow separator occurs at the rear window and spaced 100mm apart.
| twizzstyle | 11-01-2006 01:55 PM |
[QUOTE=theicewall;15806336]I was sort of generalizing the concept to make it easier to understand, but I do see your point. Instead of saying speed up the air, I should have said prevent air above other air from being slowed down by it. Also, the air may not travel from the front of the car to the back of the car and arrive at the same time, but it wants to, which is why we have lift and downforce depending on the shape of the object. Correct me if I'm wrong, you're the engineer.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, yes you are wrong :p There's a common misconception that lift is created by air going faster over the top of a wing to try to catch up to the air below, because it has a longer distance to travel, blah blah. If you look at flow vis of a flow over a wing, it turns out the air going over the top goes MUCH faster than that on the bottom, and actually gets to the trailing edge before the flow on the bottom! Kind of cool! :) (this is off topic of VG's in this thread, but still interesting)
And yes, cold wet morning, watch big airplanes, you'll see the wingtip vortices. Or if you're flying in something like a 737 or 777 sitting in front of the engines, look at the huge "fin" on the inboard side of the engine (its called a chine) when you're taking off. When you get to a decent angle of attack, you'll get a HUGE vortex off of that chine, its very cool to watch. For work I do things like stalls in 777s on a daily basis, and its very cool to watch this vortex go up more and more as the angle of attack increases, and it finally bursts and goes all turbulent when the wing stalls... and you're dropping out of the sky at that point. :D
Unfortunately, yes you are wrong :p There's a common misconception that lift is created by air going faster over the top of a wing to try to catch up to the air below, because it has a longer distance to travel, blah blah. If you look at flow vis of a flow over a wing, it turns out the air going over the top goes MUCH faster than that on the bottom, and actually gets to the trailing edge before the flow on the bottom! Kind of cool! :) (this is off topic of VG's in this thread, but still interesting)
And yes, cold wet morning, watch big airplanes, you'll see the wingtip vortices. Or if you're flying in something like a 737 or 777 sitting in front of the engines, look at the huge "fin" on the inboard side of the engine (its called a chine) when you're taking off. When you get to a decent angle of attack, you'll get a HUGE vortex off of that chine, its very cool to watch. For work I do things like stalls in 777s on a daily basis, and its very cool to watch this vortex go up more and more as the angle of attack increases, and it finally bursts and goes all turbulent when the wing stalls... and you're dropping out of the sky at that point. :D
| mykrrrr | 01-07-2007 10:59 PM |
Great info!!! Now I can save some $$$ and not get the rycey VG for my STi. :lol:
| Matt92530 | 01-07-2007 11:13 PM |
The "Shark Fins" thats an EVO thing you dont want those.
| WRBlueMeanie | 01-08-2007 01:00 PM |
[QUOTE=twizzstyle;15829621] For work I do things like stalls in 777s on a daily basis, and its very cool to watch this vortex go up more and more as the angle of attack increases, and it finally bursts and goes all turbulent when the wing stalls... and you're dropping out of the sky at that point. :D[/QUOTE]
Damn, and I thought stalls in a C172 were fun. :banana:
Damn, and I thought stalls in a C172 were fun. :banana:
| Counterfit | 01-08-2007 02:55 PM |
[QUOTE=twizzstyle;15829621]And yes, cold wet morning, watch big airplanes, you'll see the wingtip vortices.[/quote]
You can also see them on late 90's early 00's F1 cars, just before they started to care about the vertices.
[quote]For work I do things like stalls in 777s on a daily basis, and its very cool to watch this vortex go up more and more as the angle of attack increases, and it finally bursts and goes all turbulent when the wing stalls... and you're dropping out of the sky at that point. :D[/QUOTE]
Sounds like fun. :D
You can also see them on late 90's early 00's F1 cars, just before they started to care about the vertices.
[quote]For work I do things like stalls in 777s on a daily basis, and its very cool to watch this vortex go up more and more as the angle of attack increases, and it finally bursts and goes all turbulent when the wing stalls... and you're dropping out of the sky at that point. :D[/QUOTE]
Sounds like fun. :D
| mykrrrr | 01-10-2007 04:43 PM |
So in other aerodynamic discussion...do you think that all these JDM companies (Chargespeed, Voltex, Veilside, etc) wind tunnel test the products they make or do they just style it like a JGTC or WTCC car and hope it's beneficial?
| WRX8XB | 01-10-2007 04:54 PM |
Zero/Sports does wind tunnel testing.
i doubt chargespeed or veilside do, not sure on Voltex as it seems to be rather new.
I'd like to see some windtunnel #'s from a Cusco car.
C-west does track testing of their full bumpers (not sure on the "lip spoilers")
i doubt chargespeed or veilside do, not sure on Voltex as it seems to be rather new.
I'd like to see some windtunnel #'s from a Cusco car.
C-west does track testing of their full bumpers (not sure on the "lip spoilers")
| hendrix-02 | 01-10-2007 10:17 PM |
DOes anyone know what kind of rims they are?
| drees | 01-11-2007 02:51 AM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr;16615047]So in other aerodynamic discussion...do you think that all these JDM companies (Chargespeed, Voltex, Veilside, etc) wind tunnel test the products they make or do they just style it like a JGTC or WTCC car and hope it's beneficial?[/QUOTE]Take one look at the add ons, then compare it to the vortex generator on an Evo after reading the Mitsubishi technical document on how/why the designed it the way they did, then make your own educated guess on whether or not they whipped these out or actually engineered and tested them.
Hint 1: Note how the Evo vortex generators all point in slightly different directions...
[url]http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.seriouswheels.com/2006/2006-Mitsubishi-Lancer-Evolution-IX-Vortex-Generator-1600x1200.htm[/url]
Some key design points:
The length should be about 2x the height.
A height around 20-25mm seems to be optimal.
They should be angled 15* to the airflow.
If they aren't built to those specs, all they do is add weight and drag.
Hint 1: Note how the Evo vortex generators all point in slightly different directions...
[url]http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.seriouswheels.com/2006/2006-Mitsubishi-Lancer-Evolution-IX-Vortex-Generator-1600x1200.htm[/url]
Some key design points:
The length should be about 2x the height.
A height around 20-25mm seems to be optimal.
They should be angled 15* to the airflow.
If they aren't built to those specs, all they do is add weight and drag.
| salmonfacesalad | 01-11-2007 08:51 AM |
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you already have the stock roof vane spoiler the Zerosports VG attaches to that and not the roof itself like the first picture.
[quote=WRX8XB;16615260]Zero/Sports does wind tunnel testing.
i doubt chargespeed or veilside do, not sure on Voltex as it seems to be rather new.
I'd like to see some windtunnel #'s from a Cusco car.
C-west does track testing of their full bumpers (not sure on the "lip spoilers")[/quote]
[quote=WRX8XB;16615260]Zero/Sports does wind tunnel testing.
i doubt chargespeed or veilside do, not sure on Voltex as it seems to be rather new.
I'd like to see some windtunnel #'s from a Cusco car.
C-west does track testing of their full bumpers (not sure on the "lip spoilers")[/quote]
| WRX8XB | 01-11-2007 09:37 AM |
[QUOTE=salmonfacesalad;16622888]Correct me if I'm wrong but if you already have the stock roof vane spoiler the Zerosports VG attaches to that and not the roof itself like the first picture.[/QUOTE]
the first picture is a chargespeed piece i believe, the Zero/Sports one for the MY06 attaches to the roof vane.
now i'm not sure Zero/Sports wind tunnel test "Everything" they make, but they do with their full kits.
wasn't trying to be misleading before.
the first picture is a chargespeed piece i believe, the Zero/Sports one for the MY06 attaches to the roof vane.
now i'm not sure Zero/Sports wind tunnel test "Everything" they make, but they do with their full kits.
wasn't trying to be misleading before.
| SedonaRed03WrX | 01-29-2007 01:38 AM |
I should have shot it with some gloss balck, but here is mine. Got it on ebay.uk from a guy in Italy for $80 USD shipped "it should add at least 75 HP!"
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8254/carsnow010ub9.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1665/car005bs8.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8254/carsnow010ub9.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1665/car005bs8.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
| akinaspeedstar | 01-29-2007 01:37 PM |
i really like the looks of it. but if i put it on my GC id really like it to actully work like it's suposed to
| dtseng01 | 01-29-2007 01:44 PM |
[QUOTE=Samirr76;15805549]together they add eleventy billion horsepower.[/QUOTE]
No, you're wrong.
They add twenty seven-jillion zillion flywheel HP.
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
No, you're wrong.
They add twenty seven-jillion zillion flywheel HP.
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
| iheartmysuby | 01-29-2007 02:16 PM |
too much goin on
| imma_stocker | 02-01-2007 05:27 PM |
So they don't do anything functional without a big wing in the back? That's what I gather from reading this thread. And they probably only make a noticeable difference with the secondary spoiler mounted right after.
| generalganja | 02-02-2007 03:53 AM |
So how is exactly the roof fins piece installed? Is it actually just mounted via double sided tape? If so, how the hell does that stay on during extremely hot weather?
| imma_stocker | 02-02-2007 10:51 AM |
3M tape is the shizznit. That's what a good amount of kits are held on with. Not the big pieces, but lips and such like the roof fins. They are designed for the harsh environment of outside on a car.
I just don't know how long it will last.
I just don't know how long it will last.
| theicewall | 02-02-2007 05:58 PM |
There are a million different types of 3M, just make sure you have the right kind if it isnt included with it. I had a rear visor on a mustang i used to have and it stayed on for years until someone decided they liked it and ripped it off.. but i replaced it and the new one is still on after another 4 yrs.
| drees | 02-04-2007 04:32 PM |
[QUOTE=imma_stocker;16897466]So they don't do anything functional without a big wing in the back? That's what I gather from reading this thread. And they probably only make a noticeable difference with the secondary spoiler mounted right after.[/QUOTE]If designed properly, "shark fins" can reduce drag. I doubt these were tested in a wind tunnel. They are for show, not go.
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