| Davenow | 05-03-2006 01:07 PM |
track guys, help me explain this to a fellw nasioc'r
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SO I am sitting here trying to get through to this guy, that you take a car with 150hp, make it handle, and put a GOOD driver in it, and it will walk away from cars with twice that HP.
Case in point, I watched a mazdaspeed protege walkaway from M3s at limerock.
I tell him this, and he doesnt buy it.
I explained that if you take 2 cars
add 100hp to one
add brakes and suspension to the other
that the brakes/suspension car would do faster laps.
He doesnt buy it.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.
Case in point, I watched a mazdaspeed protege walkaway from M3s at limerock.
I tell him this, and he doesnt buy it.
I explained that if you take 2 cars
add 100hp to one
add brakes and suspension to the other
that the brakes/suspension car would do faster laps.
He doesnt buy it.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.
| spazegun2213 | 05-03-2006 01:25 PM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]SO I am sitting here trying to get through to this guy, that you take a car with 150hp, make it handle, and put a GOOD driver in it, and it will walk away from cars with twice that HP.
Case in point, I watched a mazdaspeed protege walkaway from M3s at limerock.
I tell him this, and he doesnt buy it.
I explained that if you take 2 cars
add 100hp to one
add brakes and suspension to the other
that the brakes/suspension car would do faster laps.
He doesnt buy it.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.[/QUOTE]
here are some stats for you SSM car (a miata with NO engine mods AT ALL) can do 1:30 at summit points main track (al bell did a 1:28.731). Other more powerful cars like a ford mustang with some work done to it, did about the same.
here are the results, have him take a look.
[url]http://www.offtotheraces.net/marrs1,2006.html[/url]
SSM and SM are miatas pushing maybe 120hp.. and they are FAST!
Case in point, I watched a mazdaspeed protege walkaway from M3s at limerock.
I tell him this, and he doesnt buy it.
I explained that if you take 2 cars
add 100hp to one
add brakes and suspension to the other
that the brakes/suspension car would do faster laps.
He doesnt buy it.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.[/QUOTE]
here are some stats for you SSM car (a miata with NO engine mods AT ALL) can do 1:30 at summit points main track (al bell did a 1:28.731). Other more powerful cars like a ford mustang with some work done to it, did about the same.
here are the results, have him take a look.
[url]http://www.offtotheraces.net/marrs1,2006.html[/url]
SSM and SM are miatas pushing maybe 120hp.. and they are FAST!
| CirrusWRX | 05-03-2006 01:33 PM |
Make it more simplistic - go to an autox.
Have him watch a n00b in a brand new 300hp STi lose by a second or two to a regular in his highly modified (but perfectly tweaked) 85hp Civic.
It applies to the track in the same fashion. HP can make up for poor driving in some cases, in other cases, it can even hurt it. Of course, there comes a point where HP is going to rule if things get completely out of whack.
A n00b in a Viper on the track is going to beat Schumacher in a golf cart. (well, it'll still be close, but there comes a point where it doesn't work any more).
Smack him and then buy him a beer.
If you want to work math into it- just look at the top times from Limerock and then the car/driver. Guestimate how much HP is in the car. Now look at a "normal" okay driver lap time and you can easily see why a well-driven, well-sorted car will always be faster than something with a lot of HP and a mediocre driver.
Edit: D'oh - second response. Sorry.
Have him watch a n00b in a brand new 300hp STi lose by a second or two to a regular in his highly modified (but perfectly tweaked) 85hp Civic.
It applies to the track in the same fashion. HP can make up for poor driving in some cases, in other cases, it can even hurt it. Of course, there comes a point where HP is going to rule if things get completely out of whack.
A n00b in a Viper on the track is going to beat Schumacher in a golf cart. (well, it'll still be close, but there comes a point where it doesn't work any more).
Smack him and then buy him a beer.
If you want to work math into it- just look at the top times from Limerock and then the car/driver. Guestimate how much HP is in the car. Now look at a "normal" okay driver lap time and you can easily see why a well-driven, well-sorted car will always be faster than something with a lot of HP and a mediocre driver.
Edit: D'oh - second response. Sorry.
| raider1v1 | 05-03-2006 01:34 PM |
just make the gap bigger. say a top fuel dragster versus a motorcycle.
the motorcycle is going to go around corners better and gain time in the corners.
the motorcycle is going to go around corners better and gain time in the corners.
| secu256 | 05-03-2006 01:50 PM |
You could tell him that in the turns you aren't accelerating, so power doesn't matter. Coming out of a turn, even a low horsepower car will break the traction the tires have if the throttle is floored, so again power doesn't really matter. The amount of time spent on the straights isn't enough to make up the difference spent turning.--Just the thoughts of a newb on how to get other said newb to understand.
| Davenow | 05-03-2006 01:54 PM |
Basically from what I get from him, he has seen a couple fast Z06s, so he cannot fathom the possibility that he could be faster than them at the track (he has an 04 STI with steering rack bushings and a full turboback).
I explained the whole thing about driver skill, holding more speed through the turns, and the fact that novice class z06 drivers typically drive like pussies.
He still doesnt believe me.
He also has a bunch of autocross experience, so he is used to handling his car at its very limits.
I explained to him that alone will make him faster than most of the novice run group guys.
STill in disbelief
*shrug*
I figure maybe if there are 9872389748923 replies to this thread from experienced guys, all saying the same thing, he will start to get it.
I explained the whole thing about driver skill, holding more speed through the turns, and the fact that novice class z06 drivers typically drive like pussies.
He still doesnt believe me.
He also has a bunch of autocross experience, so he is used to handling his car at its very limits.
I explained to him that alone will make him faster than most of the novice run group guys.
STill in disbelief
*shrug*
I figure maybe if there are 9872389748923 replies to this thread from experienced guys, all saying the same thing, he will start to get it.
| Treefallen | 05-03-2006 02:13 PM |
I guess you have to let him see it for himself.
Make sur the track is not Sebring. :)
Make sur the track is not Sebring. :)
| Davenow | 05-03-2006 02:17 PM |
Probably will me texas motorsport ranch or the other big track down here if I can convince him to do it.
| DrBiggly | 05-03-2006 02:37 PM |
Do it virtual style with a video game. Give him the car with double the HP in the game, and you keep the car with a suspension setup. Guess who will win in everything but a dragrace?
I used to do this to friends a lot...I'd give him the 900HP monster cars in GT3/GT4/Forza/whatever and take something with 1/3rd to 1/4 and commence to slaughtering. Good times. :)
edit: Just for a note, I beat an STi at an autox in my '88 Jetta. (CCR 24hr event in 2003.) The Jetta was bone stock other than a muffler and a set of Azenis (which were pretty well dead by that time.) So basically the cars even had equivalent tires. It's not all about the HP as that car made an astounding...eh, 80hp at the wheels?
-Biggly
I used to do this to friends a lot...I'd give him the 900HP monster cars in GT3/GT4/Forza/whatever and take something with 1/3rd to 1/4 and commence to slaughtering. Good times. :)
edit: Just for a note, I beat an STi at an autox in my '88 Jetta. (CCR 24hr event in 2003.) The Jetta was bone stock other than a muffler and a set of Azenis (which were pretty well dead by that time.) So basically the cars even had equivalent tires. It's not all about the HP as that car made an astounding...eh, 80hp at the wheels?
-Biggly
| rkkwan | 05-03-2006 02:43 PM |
Davenow - I was driving in the yellow group at MSR-Houston last weekend with Driver's Edge. I was one of the faster cars in my run group, and I gave a point by exactly TWICE the whole weekend.
1. A spec-Miata. Well, actually I was running faster laps than he is, as I gradually caught up with him (he also have problem getting Vipers and Corvettes to let him pass). I then passed him on the long backstraight where I was doing 120 while he was doing 100.
But then through the twisty back sections, he caught up with me. I pulled away on the pit straight, just to have him on my tail on the long carousel. I was doing a fine 75mph there, but he could do 80. So, I lifted and let him pass me again on the front straight so that I can learn his line.
Both he and I are on Toyos RA1.
2. A C5 Z06 on Dunlop slicks. I went out about 2-3 cars in front of him, but after about 6-7 laps, he finally caught me. I let him pass and then we both have to deal with traffic, and then I caught up with him during braking and the back section. He was faster on the straights, and we ran about the same around the carousel. So, he was definitely doing faster laps than me, by a little, but there are definitely sections of the track where I was faster.
It's just like the case between me and the Miata, just that the role has been reversed.
1. A spec-Miata. Well, actually I was running faster laps than he is, as I gradually caught up with him (he also have problem getting Vipers and Corvettes to let him pass). I then passed him on the long backstraight where I was doing 120 while he was doing 100.
But then through the twisty back sections, he caught up with me. I pulled away on the pit straight, just to have him on my tail on the long carousel. I was doing a fine 75mph there, but he could do 80. So, I lifted and let him pass me again on the front straight so that I can learn his line.
Both he and I are on Toyos RA1.
2. A C5 Z06 on Dunlop slicks. I went out about 2-3 cars in front of him, but after about 6-7 laps, he finally caught me. I let him pass and then we both have to deal with traffic, and then I caught up with him during braking and the back section. He was faster on the straights, and we ran about the same around the carousel. So, he was definitely doing faster laps than me, by a little, but there are definitely sections of the track where I was faster.
It's just like the case between me and the Miata, just that the role has been reversed.
| Northwest Tan | 05-03-2006 02:55 PM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]Basically from what I get from him, he has seen a couple fast Z06s, so he cannot fathom the possibility that he could be faster than them at the track (he has an 04 STI with steering rack bushings and a full turboback).
I explained the whole thing about driver skill, holding more speed through the turns, and the fact that novice class z06 drivers typically drive like pussies.
He still doesnt believe me.
He also has a bunch of autocross experience, so he is used to handling his car at its very limits.
I explained to him that alone will make him faster than most of the novice run group guys.
[/QUOTE]
There have been several autoX's when my forester turned better times than crappy drivers in their vette's. :lol:
I explained the whole thing about driver skill, holding more speed through the turns, and the fact that novice class z06 drivers typically drive like pussies.
He still doesnt believe me.
He also has a bunch of autocross experience, so he is used to handling his car at its very limits.
I explained to him that alone will make him faster than most of the novice run group guys.
[/QUOTE]
There have been several autoX's when my forester turned better times than crappy drivers in their vette's. :lol:
| trhoppe | 05-03-2006 03:14 PM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]SO I am sitting here trying to get through to this guy, that you take a car with 150hp, make it handle, and put a GOOD driver in it, and it will walk away from cars with twice that HP.
Case in point, I watched a mazdaspeed protege walkaway from M3s at limerock.
I tell him this, and he doesnt buy it.
I explained that if you take 2 cars
add 100hp to one
add brakes and suspension to the other
that the brakes/suspension car would do faster laps.
He doesnt buy it.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.[/QUOTE]
You have 2 seperate scenarios there.
1) GOOD driver in a car with a suspension instead of a bad driver with HP
2) SAME driver in 2 car, one with a suspension, one with HP
In Case 1, the better driver will almost always win.
In Case 2, its *totally* track dependent and can go one way or the other.
-Tom
Case in point, I watched a mazdaspeed protege walkaway from M3s at limerock.
I tell him this, and he doesnt buy it.
I explained that if you take 2 cars
add 100hp to one
add brakes and suspension to the other
that the brakes/suspension car would do faster laps.
He doesnt buy it.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.[/QUOTE]
You have 2 seperate scenarios there.
1) GOOD driver in a car with a suspension instead of a bad driver with HP
2) SAME driver in 2 car, one with a suspension, one with HP
In Case 1, the better driver will almost always win.
In Case 2, its *totally* track dependent and can go one way or the other.
-Tom
| electricpork | 05-03-2006 03:15 PM |
Just show him the numbers. I think these instances of an underpowered vehicle beating out a big power car just goes to illustrate the VAST difference between an experienced driver and an inexperienced one.
Two instances of personal experience with this:
1. At track school, I sat shotgun with a former IMSA vet in a 110 hp almost-stock Z3. With me in it as an extra 160 lb ballast, I witnessed our little mousey Z3 EAT UP a Lexan-windowed F360 Challenge piloted by a not-unexperienced time trialer. The only place where the Ferrari would catch and pass us were the two long straights. That advantage was quickly eaten up in the technical sections.
2. And perhaps more along the lines of your friend's specific situation, I played cat and mouse for 10 laps with a C5 Z06 with my then-stage 2 WRX. He raced spec miata (IIRC) and thus I presume he was a better driver than me, all things considered. The difference? He had just purchased his car and this was his first time out to the track with it.
So yes, it IS possible. I've both seen it, and done it.
Ben
Two instances of personal experience with this:
1. At track school, I sat shotgun with a former IMSA vet in a 110 hp almost-stock Z3. With me in it as an extra 160 lb ballast, I witnessed our little mousey Z3 EAT UP a Lexan-windowed F360 Challenge piloted by a not-unexperienced time trialer. The only place where the Ferrari would catch and pass us were the two long straights. That advantage was quickly eaten up in the technical sections.
2. And perhaps more along the lines of your friend's specific situation, I played cat and mouse for 10 laps with a C5 Z06 with my then-stage 2 WRX. He raced spec miata (IIRC) and thus I presume he was a better driver than me, all things considered. The difference? He had just purchased his car and this was his first time out to the track with it.
So yes, it IS possible. I've both seen it, and done it.
Ben
| WRXedUSA | 05-03-2006 03:25 PM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]Basically from what I get from him, he has seen a couple fast Z06s, so he cannot fathom the possibility that he could be faster than them at the track (he has an 04 STI with steering rack bushings and a full turboback).
I explained the whole thing about driver skill, holding more speed through the turns, and the fact that novice class z06 drivers typically drive like pussies.
He still doesnt believe me.
He also has a bunch of autocross experience, so he is used to handling his car at its very limits.
I explained to him that alone will make him faster than most of the novice run group guys.
STill in disbelief
*shrug*
I figure maybe if there are 9872389748923 replies to this thread from experienced guys, all saying the same thing, he will start to get it.[/QUOTE]
Oh, so this guy has Z06 on the brain. Show him this video.
[url]http://videos.streetfire.net/search/heartland+park/0/543BA480-4A09-4C4F-9496-4DF93C4D9F9C.htm[/url]
I explained the whole thing about driver skill, holding more speed through the turns, and the fact that novice class z06 drivers typically drive like pussies.
He still doesnt believe me.
He also has a bunch of autocross experience, so he is used to handling his car at its very limits.
I explained to him that alone will make him faster than most of the novice run group guys.
STill in disbelief
*shrug*
I figure maybe if there are 9872389748923 replies to this thread from experienced guys, all saying the same thing, he will start to get it.[/QUOTE]
Oh, so this guy has Z06 on the brain. Show him this video.
[url]http://videos.streetfire.net/search/heartland+park/0/543BA480-4A09-4C4F-9496-4DF93C4D9F9C.htm[/url]
| goto_racing | 05-03-2006 03:56 PM |
Perhaps include an explanation of exit speed. It is over simplistic to say that the car that corners better(suspension, good driver) only has an advantage in the corners, it also has the advantage for at least part of the next straight. HP only effects accelaration directly, not velocity. with only a 100 hp difference even exiting 3 or 4 mph faster will mean that the more powerful car will be losing ground for a second or two. Even when it starts gaining ground, it will take many more seconds after that to recover all the ground he lost. So on the drag to the end of a straight, HP can be directly substituted with exit speed. Please don't make me do the calculus to explain it. Increase the exit speed and you need less horsepower to accomplish the same laptimes.
One train leaves philidelphia accelarating at 1/ms, while another train... <groan>.
Chris Lock
One train leaves philidelphia accelarating at 1/ms, while another train... <groan>.
Chris Lock
| Warp3 | 05-03-2006 03:58 PM |
Check out the CMP PDE thread in the SouthEast forum and find the first video I posted of my own car. The white Mustang I pass on that video pointed me by several times during the weekend. Supposedly, that particular Mustang has 400hp...my 2.5RS makes 144whp (DynoJet AWD dyno). Suspension, V710 tires and driving experience (mostly autocross) make up for a lot. :D
Shane
Shane
| nKoan | 05-03-2006 04:01 PM |
slow in, fast out
higher average speed vs. higher top speed
great power is nothing without great control (from Spiderman?)
i dunno, maybe a few more simple concepts
higher average speed vs. higher top speed
great power is nothing without great control (from Spiderman?)
i dunno, maybe a few more simple concepts
| Davenow | 05-03-2006 04:07 PM |
I think he also has a WAY off idea of what kind of cars are typically in the novice run group. I think he has visions of twin turbo porsches and vipers.
When in reality its more M3s being driven by old guys, civics with fart cans, sentra SERs etc. Even the prepped cars out there are guys who just bought the thing and havent gut much experience.
When in reality its more M3s being driven by old guys, civics with fart cans, sentra SERs etc. Even the prepped cars out there are guys who just bought the thing and havent gut much experience.
| STI05 | 05-03-2006 04:14 PM |
That's whay anyone with an ounce of driving experience knows that the engine is the LAST thing to get modded (unless you're starting off with a neon :p )
Tell him to stick to driving in a straight line - I'm sur he'll do well in time.
Tell him to stick to driving in a straight line - I'm sur he'll do well in time.
| skuttledude | 05-03-2006 04:21 PM |
this "guy" has AutoX'd and still hasn't seen small underpowered cars beat out Vettes and the like?
Even on a road couse I'd rather have an Elise or Mini S than a 400hp Moostang..purely from a performance standpoint, (design point to I guess, heh).
Heck I was getting tooled by modded Minis at a Mid-Ohio HPDE. Sure on the straight I'd leave them but they kept coming back on the twisties...eventually letting them pass.
A lot of it is driver, a lot of it is car. Alot of it is a driver knowing where to put their car.
Even on a road couse I'd rather have an Elise or Mini S than a 400hp Moostang..purely from a performance standpoint, (design point to I guess, heh).
Heck I was getting tooled by modded Minis at a Mid-Ohio HPDE. Sure on the straight I'd leave them but they kept coming back on the twisties...eventually letting them pass.
A lot of it is driver, a lot of it is car. Alot of it is a driver knowing where to put their car.
| stidailydriver | 05-03-2006 04:23 PM |
[QUOTE=Davis K Powers]A lot of it is driver, a lot of it is car. Alot of it is a driver knowing where to put their car.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, last year at MAM i was getting wasted by a stock wrx. Come to find out, the guy was an instructor at that track.
Agreed, last year at MAM i was getting wasted by a stock wrx. Come to find out, the guy was an instructor at that track.
| MRF582 | 05-03-2006 04:24 PM |
Vehicular Package = Driver + Car
| RB5 Clone | 05-03-2006 05:18 PM |
same thing holds true in rallyX
stock 2.5RS will often clean the clock of the STIs, much to consternation of the STI pilotes !
light weight and maneuverability with good gearing will outdo sheer hp in a heavier car
add in the fact that many drivers of "slower" cars have developed their skills and driving strategies to the point where they can make the most of their cars' strong points and minimize the weak points to narrow the gap they face in outright hp and fancier hardware.
this holds true too in rallying, where well-prepped well-driven 2WD Golfs or Suzuki Swifts can (and often DO) put the serious spank onto STIs and Evos.
your friend needs to open his eyes and open his mind.
DG
stock 2.5RS will often clean the clock of the STIs, much to consternation of the STI pilotes !
light weight and maneuverability with good gearing will outdo sheer hp in a heavier car
add in the fact that many drivers of "slower" cars have developed their skills and driving strategies to the point where they can make the most of their cars' strong points and minimize the weak points to narrow the gap they face in outright hp and fancier hardware.
this holds true too in rallying, where well-prepped well-driven 2WD Golfs or Suzuki Swifts can (and often DO) put the serious spank onto STIs and Evos.
your friend needs to open his eyes and open his mind.
DG
| MPME | 05-03-2006 05:23 PM |
you are both correct.
depends on what track. at sears point, big power over no handling/stopping will kill you. at road america, you'd be in better standing if you had to choose power over the others.
depends on what track. at sears point, big power over no handling/stopping will kill you. at road america, you'd be in better standing if you had to choose power over the others.
| grippgoat | 05-03-2006 05:25 PM |
My STI:
- 300whp (probably 360ish crank), 320tq
- roughty 3250lbs, call it 3500 with driver
- RE070 tires
- STI Pinks
- Stock struts
- Perrin Rear Sway bar
- Whiteline Comfort ALK
- DoLuck chassis brace
- Whiteline adjustable rear lateral links
- Total cost: $35k+
My friend's EK Civic hatch:
- 165 whp, less torque (supercharged GSR motor)
- Probably 2300lb, call it 2500 with driver
- Tein Super Racing Coilovers
- Rollbar
- Full pushings
- Lots of camber
- Advan Tech-R tires
- Stripped interior
- ???
- Lots of seat time
- Total cost: <$15k
STI Lap time: 1:28.96
Civic Lap time: 1:29.10 (+0.14)
And he's going to beat my time at the next track event, because he's sorting out some gnarly handling gremlins that made him hold back under braking and corner entry before.
That said, I absolutely hate the way his car drives, and I'll smoke him if I ever put my Tein Flex back on and get some race tires, and won't cry when I drive it on the street. :) I'm not sure I'll ever beat him in my Miata, even with a turbo.
-Mike
- 300whp (probably 360ish crank), 320tq
- roughty 3250lbs, call it 3500 with driver
- RE070 tires
- STI Pinks
- Stock struts
- Perrin Rear Sway bar
- Whiteline Comfort ALK
- DoLuck chassis brace
- Whiteline adjustable rear lateral links
- Total cost: $35k+
My friend's EK Civic hatch:
- 165 whp, less torque (supercharged GSR motor)
- Probably 2300lb, call it 2500 with driver
- Tein Super Racing Coilovers
- Rollbar
- Full pushings
- Lots of camber
- Advan Tech-R tires
- Stripped interior
- ???
- Lots of seat time
- Total cost: <$15k
STI Lap time: 1:28.96
Civic Lap time: 1:29.10 (+0.14)
And he's going to beat my time at the next track event, because he's sorting out some gnarly handling gremlins that made him hold back under braking and corner entry before.
That said, I absolutely hate the way his car drives, and I'll smoke him if I ever put my Tein Flex back on and get some race tires, and won't cry when I drive it on the street. :) I'm not sure I'll ever beat him in my Miata, even with a turbo.
-Mike
| SoutFL_9-2x | 05-03-2006 06:16 PM |
The classic type 1 turn which leads on to a long straight provides plenty of room for compensation for lack of HP. The greater the exit speed, the greater the rate of acceleration down the straight. A good handling car with less hp than a poorer handling car with more power can theoretically make up the difference in power by leaving the turn with a greater track out speed.
That said, there's a threshold where power (or excess of power) will make up for any lack of handling, and that's where your drag race down a straight takes place, where the car with less hp will be reeled in by the car with more power.
That said, there's a threshold where power (or excess of power) will make up for any lack of handling, and that's where your drag race down a straight takes place, where the car with less hp will be reeled in by the car with more power.
| gt9729b | 05-03-2006 07:46 PM |
In my opinion, the question reeks of over-generalization. On some tracks, a better handling car will beat the snot out of a high horsepower beast. But, in other situations, the beast will win.
In summary, it's completely situational, based on the track. That being said, if you're talking about actual racing (on most tracks that *we* as Subaru fans consider them) then I'm all about handling winning out over hp.
In summary, it's completely situational, based on the track. That being said, if you're talking about actual racing (on most tracks that *we* as Subaru fans consider them) then I'm all about handling winning out over hp.
| Apex Rex | 05-03-2006 08:35 PM |
I don't really know of how to help out your friend, other than saying that I have chased down and passed Twin Turbo Porsche's with my relatively stock WRX. This was done at Watkins Glen, where no one really complains of having too much power.
My mods include JDM Pink springs on stock struts, Perrin rear sway bar (20mm setting), Whiteline Steering Rack bushings, and 16x8 Slipstreams with 245/45 Hankook RS2 Z212s on them.
There is no better feeling than chasing down a car with nearly twice the HP of your car :D
My mods include JDM Pink springs on stock struts, Perrin rear sway bar (20mm setting), Whiteline Steering Rack bushings, and 16x8 Slipstreams with 245/45 Hankook RS2 Z212s on them.
There is no better feeling than chasing down a car with nearly twice the HP of your car :D
| Butt Dyno | 05-03-2006 08:50 PM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]SO I am sitting here trying to get through to this guy, that you take a car with 150hp, make it handle, and put a GOOD driver in it, and it will walk away from cars with twice that HP.
Case in point, I watched a mazdaspeed protege walkaway from M3s at limerock.
I tell him this, and he doesnt buy it.
I explained that if you take 2 cars
add 100hp to one
add brakes and suspension to the other
that the brakes/suspension car would do faster laps.
He doesnt buy it.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.[/QUOTE]
Find a local Spec Miata driver and get him to give your friend a ridealong...
Case in point, I watched a mazdaspeed protege walkaway from M3s at limerock.
I tell him this, and he doesnt buy it.
I explained that if you take 2 cars
add 100hp to one
add brakes and suspension to the other
that the brakes/suspension car would do faster laps.
He doesnt buy it.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.[/QUOTE]
Find a local Spec Miata driver and get him to give your friend a ridealong...
| toekneeyo | 05-03-2006 08:56 PM |
so peter solberg in a stock sti
vs.
peter solberg in a miata (non mazdaspeed)
miata would win?
vs.
peter solberg in a miata (non mazdaspeed)
miata would win?
| davis10 | 05-03-2006 09:15 PM |
[QUOTE=spazegun2213]here are some stats for you SSM car (a miata with NO engine mods AT ALL) can do 1:30 at summit points main track (al bell did a 1:28.731). Other more powerful cars like a ford mustang with some work done to it, did about the same.
here are the results, have him take a look.
[url]http://www.offtotheraces.net/marrs1,2006.html[/url]
SSM and SM are miatas pushing maybe 120hp.. and they are FAST![/QUOTE]
Suspension Mods are very valuable, but it would depend on the track which one is faster. autocrosses would almost surely be the suspension moddd.
here are the results, have him take a look.
[url]http://www.offtotheraces.net/marrs1,2006.html[/url]
SSM and SM are miatas pushing maybe 120hp.. and they are FAST![/QUOTE]
Suspension Mods are very valuable, but it would depend on the track which one is faster. autocrosses would almost surely be the suspension moddd.
| Davenow | 05-03-2006 09:57 PM |
[QUOTE=toekneeyo]so peter solberg in a stock sti
vs.
peter solberg in a miata (non mazdaspeed)
miata would win?[/QUOTE]
AT an autocross or VERY tight track?
Yes.
vs.
peter solberg in a miata (non mazdaspeed)
miata would win?[/QUOTE]
AT an autocross or VERY tight track?
Yes.
| kwak | 05-03-2006 10:05 PM |
Davenow, you know it's true but it is going to be hard to convince a non-racer. Things I've personally done or seen...
I used to race an 85hp VW with race springs and shocks. It was 4 seconds a lap faster than a 180hp sports car that I had. I only took the race car to one Porsche track day and learned that Porsches with 2-3 times the hp were holding me up.
Take T1 Vipers with good drivers and they are faster than Viper Comp Coupes with bad drivers.
You could also go to the Whiteline website and show him the article where they took the same amount of money, same type car, and compared what happened when you put the money into power or handling.
I used to race an 85hp VW with race springs and shocks. It was 4 seconds a lap faster than a 180hp sports car that I had. I only took the race car to one Porsche track day and learned that Porsches with 2-3 times the hp were holding me up.
Take T1 Vipers with good drivers and they are faster than Viper Comp Coupes with bad drivers.
You could also go to the Whiteline website and show him the article where they took the same amount of money, same type car, and compared what happened when you put the money into power or handling.
| Paisan | 05-03-2006 10:15 PM |
Well here is a case in point....
I was up at LRP running in the Instrutor group with PDA in late April...
3rd session of the day.
Me: 1994 Legacy Turbo 5MT AWD, Koni Inserts, 4-pot Subaru Brakes, HP+ Pads, 16" RS Rims w/Well Used Azenis Sports, Bosal Downpipe, catless Scooby Sport UK Exhaust, otherwise stock.
Guy who was being a jerk: Dodge Neon SRT4, unknown mods
I was running along, doing ok, hanging with most folks, giving point bys etc. I come up on the Neon slowly. In the straights he was taking off as soon as we hit big bend and the esses I was up his butt, then on the front straight, he'd take off again. The thing that got me really annoyed was that he let 2 vettes and a porsche goe by but wouldn't let me pass. Until I almost rear ended him 3 times and they kept giving him the blue flag, he wouldn't let me go by. I mean it's a crappy 1994 Legacy with 130k miles on it. Finally he let me pass, and then I never saw him again for the rest of the session. I'm not sure of the torque, hp, on the SRT4, but the Legacy is about 3000lbs, 190lbs torque and 160hp....
-mike
I was up at LRP running in the Instrutor group with PDA in late April...
3rd session of the day.
Me: 1994 Legacy Turbo 5MT AWD, Koni Inserts, 4-pot Subaru Brakes, HP+ Pads, 16" RS Rims w/Well Used Azenis Sports, Bosal Downpipe, catless Scooby Sport UK Exhaust, otherwise stock.
Guy who was being a jerk: Dodge Neon SRT4, unknown mods
I was running along, doing ok, hanging with most folks, giving point bys etc. I come up on the Neon slowly. In the straights he was taking off as soon as we hit big bend and the esses I was up his butt, then on the front straight, he'd take off again. The thing that got me really annoyed was that he let 2 vettes and a porsche goe by but wouldn't let me pass. Until I almost rear ended him 3 times and they kept giving him the blue flag, he wouldn't let me go by. I mean it's a crappy 1994 Legacy with 130k miles on it. Finally he let me pass, and then I never saw him again for the rest of the session. I'm not sure of the torque, hp, on the SRT4, but the Legacy is about 3000lbs, 190lbs torque and 160hp....
-mike
| scooboost | 05-03-2006 10:30 PM |
i think one of the keys to your friend understanding this is a better comprehension of how brakes and susp mods work. I dont pretend to be an expert, but something to the effect of: better brakes allow you to brake later, thus maintaining speed for a longer time and scrubbing it off quicker, instead of having to brake earlier (and therefore have a lower speed for a longer time before the curve). Suspension mods allow you a faster lap time because they enable you to carry greater speed through the curve while maintaining control of the car. Like someone previously said, a better suspension/brakes will therefore allow you to maintain a higher average speed.
| PA04STI | 05-03-2006 10:44 PM |
Its all [B]"The Car"[/B] & [B]"The Driver" [/B]
[B]The Car:[/B]
You watch BestMotoring and the Touges little MR2s win look at the Ariel Atom's in Top Gear on the track. The Stig (their track driver) had a crazy time. Also the older English guy was amazed with it and he has driven every exotic etc.
I mean HP & TQ will get you from point A to B quick in a straight line, but that does nothing on a winding track. You need response, control, balance, braking, acceleration & Great Power to Weight ratio in a car (the setup).
Someone mathmatical find a formula to breakdown the power to weight of a muscle car's to the power to weight of the Ariel Atom.
That is the whole point back in the day why people needed crazy power in muscle cars. When you weight 4-6000 lbs you need that much more HP & TQ to get it moving.
Then think of the Ariel Atom & this website:
[url]http://www.arielatom.com/ariel/site.php[/url]
[B]Specs:
205BHP/200ft lbs, 6500redline, 456 kg weight think about it![/B] :eek:
Also look what the Ariel Atom killed in this article:
[url]http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/04/frames.htm[/url]
[B]"Take a look at the photo and guess which car will not only accelerate to 100mph the fastest but then stop again to zero the quickest. Two Aston Martins, a Porsche, 2 TVR's a Ford GT with 550bhp, a Dodge SRT-10 with 500bhp, a full race Caterham CSR... traction controls, anti lock brakes... Yes it's official the 2005 quickest car 0 -100 - 0mph is the Ariel Atom in 10.88 seconds.
Using a standard fully road legal Atom 2 300 supercharged Ariel have won this year's Autocar 0-100-0 challenge. With datalogged times done in two directions by the same Autocar test drivers the Atom scorched to 100mph in 6.86 seconds and then stopped from 100mph in 3.8 seconds.
In a seperate test to win the Sunday Times fastest car to 60mph the Atom spanked the opposition with a blistering 2.91 second average making it the world's fastest accelerating production car available today."[/B] :eek:
Higher HP/TQ is all fine but what people don't understand is that is only one point in a huge equation.
Point being Huge HP/TQ won't do **** at the track there are a hell of alot of other variables needed!
I want an Atom if it was only a daily driver!!!!!
[B]The Driver:[/B]
But the ultimate key is the brains and vision putting the input into the car.
You gotta know your car like the back of your hand when you sit in the seat the car should be a part of you an etension like your hands and feet. Everything the car does or might be going to do you should feel in your ass. Those drivers that excell at this knowledge & feel win.
Also those that have the best vision will win vision as in going into turn 1 your already in your mind getting ready for turn to and the setup into it. Gotta always vision ahead not right in front of your hood. And also the correct input at the right time as in when to correct and how to not over correct. I mean that is why drivers do 2-3 days at the track before a race. They even walk the coarse alot of the time to know the track. Like hey in turn 4 their is some sand in turn 7 I should take this line in this gear. Then they go out and test what they think in the car.
My car is setup very well, but I am an amateur and a good track driver could kill me in a Dodge Omni at the track.
Point being is a car won't correct your mistakes and the driver has the ultimate last input be it good or bad the car just follows those inputs weither it be into a wall or the next turn! Only the driver that finds the fastest path on a track will win as long as their car is setup for their input and the track.
I hope someday to be good enough to know what needs adjusted on my car like professionals drivers and relay the info to their pit crew now that is when ou know your car.
MAtt
[B]The Car:[/B]
You watch BestMotoring and the Touges little MR2s win look at the Ariel Atom's in Top Gear on the track. The Stig (their track driver) had a crazy time. Also the older English guy was amazed with it and he has driven every exotic etc.
I mean HP & TQ will get you from point A to B quick in a straight line, but that does nothing on a winding track. You need response, control, balance, braking, acceleration & Great Power to Weight ratio in a car (the setup).
Someone mathmatical find a formula to breakdown the power to weight of a muscle car's to the power to weight of the Ariel Atom.
That is the whole point back in the day why people needed crazy power in muscle cars. When you weight 4-6000 lbs you need that much more HP & TQ to get it moving.
Then think of the Ariel Atom & this website:
[url]http://www.arielatom.com/ariel/site.php[/url]
[B]Specs:
205BHP/200ft lbs, 6500redline, 456 kg weight think about it![/B] :eek:
Also look what the Ariel Atom killed in this article:
[url]http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/04/frames.htm[/url]
[B]"Take a look at the photo and guess which car will not only accelerate to 100mph the fastest but then stop again to zero the quickest. Two Aston Martins, a Porsche, 2 TVR's a Ford GT with 550bhp, a Dodge SRT-10 with 500bhp, a full race Caterham CSR... traction controls, anti lock brakes... Yes it's official the 2005 quickest car 0 -100 - 0mph is the Ariel Atom in 10.88 seconds.
Using a standard fully road legal Atom 2 300 supercharged Ariel have won this year's Autocar 0-100-0 challenge. With datalogged times done in two directions by the same Autocar test drivers the Atom scorched to 100mph in 6.86 seconds and then stopped from 100mph in 3.8 seconds.
In a seperate test to win the Sunday Times fastest car to 60mph the Atom spanked the opposition with a blistering 2.91 second average making it the world's fastest accelerating production car available today."[/B] :eek:
Higher HP/TQ is all fine but what people don't understand is that is only one point in a huge equation.
Point being Huge HP/TQ won't do **** at the track there are a hell of alot of other variables needed!
I want an Atom if it was only a daily driver!!!!!
[B]The Driver:[/B]
But the ultimate key is the brains and vision putting the input into the car.
You gotta know your car like the back of your hand when you sit in the seat the car should be a part of you an etension like your hands and feet. Everything the car does or might be going to do you should feel in your ass. Those drivers that excell at this knowledge & feel win.
Also those that have the best vision will win vision as in going into turn 1 your already in your mind getting ready for turn to and the setup into it. Gotta always vision ahead not right in front of your hood. And also the correct input at the right time as in when to correct and how to not over correct. I mean that is why drivers do 2-3 days at the track before a race. They even walk the coarse alot of the time to know the track. Like hey in turn 4 their is some sand in turn 7 I should take this line in this gear. Then they go out and test what they think in the car.
My car is setup very well, but I am an amateur and a good track driver could kill me in a Dodge Omni at the track.
Point being is a car won't correct your mistakes and the driver has the ultimate last input be it good or bad the car just follows those inputs weither it be into a wall or the next turn! Only the driver that finds the fastest path on a track will win as long as their car is setup for their input and the track.
I hope someday to be good enough to know what needs adjusted on my car like professionals drivers and relay the info to their pit crew now that is when ou know your car.
MAtt
| Crash477 | 05-03-2006 11:14 PM |
[QUOTE=Warp3]Check out the CMP PDE thread in the SouthEast forum and find the first video I posted of my own car. The white Mustang I pass on that video pointed me by several times during the weekend. Supposedly, that particular Mustang has 400hp...my 2.5RS makes 144whp (DynoJet AWD dyno). Suspension, V710 tires and driving experience (mostly autocross) make up for a lot. :D
Shane[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
Shane was catching me in teh turns cause of his R-comps, as I was on Azeni's, but in the straight I would pull away.
Shane[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
Shane was catching me in teh turns cause of his R-comps, as I was on Azeni's, but in the straight I would pull away.
| RaceComp Engineering | 05-03-2006 11:30 PM |
This is why we started building PROJECT GROCERY GETTER !! To show how fast 100whp OBS with alot of suspension and alot of brakes can be.
Myles
Myles
| grippgoat | 05-03-2006 11:34 PM |
[QUOTE=toekneeyo]so peter solberg in a stock sti
vs.
peter solberg in a miata (non mazdaspeed)
miata would win?[/QUOTE]
Even at an autocross, I think the miata would need race tires to put up a fight. Maybe on a go-kart track....
-Mike
vs.
peter solberg in a miata (non mazdaspeed)
miata would win?[/QUOTE]
Even at an autocross, I think the miata would need race tires to put up a fight. Maybe on a go-kart track....
-Mike
| Davenow | 05-04-2006 12:23 AM |
[QUOTE=RaceComp Engineering]This is why we started building PROJECT GROCERY GETTER !! To show how fast 100whp OBS with alot of suspension and alot of brakes can be.
Myles[/QUOTE]
LINK!! I want to watch this as it develops (if you are posting about it)
Myles[/QUOTE]
LINK!! I want to watch this as it develops (if you are posting about it)
| LastResort | 05-04-2006 12:40 AM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]LINK!! I want to watch this as it develops (if you are posting about it)[/QUOTE]
This is the one I've been following:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=909761[/url]
This is the one I've been following:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=909761[/url]
| IIdiceII | 05-04-2006 08:09 AM |
tell him to watch this...a pretty good example. the mr-s has 190 hp while the other cars have much more (s15 has like 310 i think) and would have easily won the race if he didnt drop back on purpose.
[url]http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=575253248&n=2[/url]
[url]http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=575253248&n=2[/url]
| Jack | 05-04-2006 12:25 PM |
Dave,
I'll use me as an example. (stick with me here....it actually works)
Back in the mid 90's, I ran a 190hp Showroom Stock M3 in COM time trials.
Flash forward now. I'm running my 90hp CRX in prepared class. My times are slightly faster in my CRX. I have another 10 years under my belt and a car that is all suspension/tires.
I have no memory about what my M3 times used to be, so I go back into the archives and look up my track records from Lime Rock and NHIS (old course).
Less than 1/2 the HP and the CRX is faster than a track record M3.
jack
I'll use me as an example. (stick with me here....it actually works)
Back in the mid 90's, I ran a 190hp Showroom Stock M3 in COM time trials.
Flash forward now. I'm running my 90hp CRX in prepared class. My times are slightly faster in my CRX. I have another 10 years under my belt and a car that is all suspension/tires.
I have no memory about what my M3 times used to be, so I go back into the archives and look up my track records from Lime Rock and NHIS (old course).
Less than 1/2 the HP and the CRX is faster than a track record M3.
jack
| SlideWRX | 05-04-2006 03:56 PM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat]Even at an autocross, I think the miata would need race tires to put up a fight. Maybe on a go-kart track....
-Mike[/QUOTE]
Are you sure?
SCCA Nationals results (2005):
Fastest STi in A-stock ran 62.705
Fastest Miata in C-stock ran 61.986
SCCA Nationals results(2004):
Fastest STi in A-stock ran 49.280
Fastest Miata in C-stock ran 48.640
2005 results here:
[url]http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/2005SoloNationals-FINALresults.pdf[/url]
2004 all classes here:
[url]http://ww2.scca.com/Solo.php[/url]
Tom
-Mike[/QUOTE]
Are you sure?
SCCA Nationals results (2005):
Fastest STi in A-stock ran 62.705
Fastest Miata in C-stock ran 61.986
SCCA Nationals results(2004):
Fastest STi in A-stock ran 49.280
Fastest Miata in C-stock ran 48.640
2005 results here:
[url]http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/2005SoloNationals-FINALresults.pdf[/url]
2004 all classes here:
[url]http://ww2.scca.com/Solo.php[/url]
Tom
| trhoppe | 05-04-2006 04:23 PM |
Can't compare results from nationals last few years with all the rain ;)
-Tom
-Tom
| Kostamojen | 05-04-2006 04:25 PM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.[/QUOTE]
I put them in my car... That or ask them to keep up on a twisty road.
It works.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.[/QUOTE]
I put them in my car... That or ask them to keep up on a twisty road.
It works.
| richde | 05-04-2006 06:02 PM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]SO I am sitting here trying to get through to this guy, that you take a car with 150hp, make it handle, and put a GOOD driver in it, and it will walk away from cars with twice that HP.
Case in point, I watched a mazdaspeed protege walkaway from M3s at limerock.
I tell him this, and he doesnt buy it.
I explained that if you take 2 cars
add 100hp to one
add brakes and suspension to the other
that the brakes/suspension car would do faster laps.
He doesnt buy it.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.[/QUOTE]
He'll probably never get it until you take him to a race.
Back in '99 I spanked the bajesus out of a VTR1000 with a SV650 at Texas World, then at Hallet I had the bajesus spanked out of me by the SV650 owner with me on my VTR1000. He literally went by me like I was standing still, and I was going by Ducati 916's and GSXR750's with not all that much trouble.
Or...I kept up with one of the top local (here in OK) mountain bikers on the Slickrock Trail when we were on a trip to Moab, he was stronger, but he also slowed down more.
....it's all about the average speed....
Case in point, I watched a mazdaspeed protege walkaway from M3s at limerock.
I tell him this, and he doesnt buy it.
I explained that if you take 2 cars
add 100hp to one
add brakes and suspension to the other
that the brakes/suspension car would do faster laps.
He doesnt buy it.
I know this to be true, you guys know it to be true, help me explain it.[/QUOTE]
He'll probably never get it until you take him to a race.
Back in '99 I spanked the bajesus out of a VTR1000 with a SV650 at Texas World, then at Hallet I had the bajesus spanked out of me by the SV650 owner with me on my VTR1000. He literally went by me like I was standing still, and I was going by Ducati 916's and GSXR750's with not all that much trouble.
Or...I kept up with one of the top local (here in OK) mountain bikers on the Slickrock Trail when we were on a trip to Moab, he was stronger, but he also slowed down more.
....it's all about the average speed....
| WillisW555 | 05-04-2006 07:37 PM |
I have another example. At Thunderhill, there was a very well driven bone-stock '04 STI spanking on this dude in his 996 Turbo and his buddy in his Z06.
A slightly less fair example (because of weight) is a Catherham Super 7 that was spanking GT3, 911 Turbos, etc at the track... all with under 200hp.
A slightly less fair example (because of weight) is a Catherham Super 7 that was spanking GT3, 911 Turbos, etc at the track... all with under 200hp.
| Mykl | 05-04-2006 07:46 PM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]AT an autocross or VERY tight track?
Yes.[/QUOTE]
I don't agree, at all. I was on a relatively tight track with a bunch of Miatas last weekend... and I'm no Solberg, but there was a mix up in my classing for the HPDE and I got put in novice instead of advanced. The event organizer borrowed a Miata and I followed him for a few laps and I was on his ass all the way around the track, with the exception of turn entry on pretty much every turn. By the time our two cars were straightened out coming out of every turn I was on his bumper again. This guy has a lot of track time under his belt and currently runs spec-Miata and does vintage racing. All I have is a handful of HPDE's and a few autocross events.
In the hands of a reasonably competent driver it's going to take a fair amount of upgrades to get a Miata or a Civic to run the same times as an STi around an open track.
Yes.[/QUOTE]
I don't agree, at all. I was on a relatively tight track with a bunch of Miatas last weekend... and I'm no Solberg, but there was a mix up in my classing for the HPDE and I got put in novice instead of advanced. The event organizer borrowed a Miata and I followed him for a few laps and I was on his ass all the way around the track, with the exception of turn entry on pretty much every turn. By the time our two cars were straightened out coming out of every turn I was on his bumper again. This guy has a lot of track time under his belt and currently runs spec-Miata and does vintage racing. All I have is a handful of HPDE's and a few autocross events.
In the hands of a reasonably competent driver it's going to take a fair amount of upgrades to get a Miata or a Civic to run the same times as an STi around an open track.
| Mykl | 05-04-2006 07:49 PM |
[QUOTE=SlideWRX]Are you sure?
SCCA Nationals results (2005):
Fastest STi in A-stock ran 62.705
Fastest Miata in C-stock ran 61.986
SCCA Nationals results(2004):
Fastest STi in A-stock ran 49.280
Fastest Miata in C-stock ran 48.640
2005 results here:
[url]http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/2005SoloNationals-FINALresults.pdf[/url]
2004 all classes here:
[url]http://ww2.scca.com/Solo.php[/url]
Tom[/QUOTE]
That doesn't mean much. The Miata is considered the car to have, so there are a lot of hotshoes in them. The cars to have in A-stock are the S2000 and C4 Corvette, right now I don't think there's anybody with the skills to trophy at nationals in A-stock is campaigning an STi. But I don't pay attention to who's who at nationals, so I could be wrong.
SCCA Nationals results (2005):
Fastest STi in A-stock ran 62.705
Fastest Miata in C-stock ran 61.986
SCCA Nationals results(2004):
Fastest STi in A-stock ran 49.280
Fastest Miata in C-stock ran 48.640
2005 results here:
[url]http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/2005SoloNationals-FINALresults.pdf[/url]
2004 all classes here:
[url]http://ww2.scca.com/Solo.php[/url]
Tom[/QUOTE]
That doesn't mean much. The Miata is considered the car to have, so there are a lot of hotshoes in them. The cars to have in A-stock are the S2000 and C4 Corvette, right now I don't think there's anybody with the skills to trophy at nationals in A-stock is campaigning an STi. But I don't pay attention to who's who at nationals, so I could be wrong.
| kfoote | 05-08-2006 04:11 PM |
Laguna Seca this weekend, Bill Auberlen in a Turner Motorsport Grand-Am Cup BMW M3 (power, less handling): 1:39.469
2004, Bill Auberlen in a Turner Motorsport World Challenge BMW 325i (handling, less ~100 HP): 1:38.786
Handling can get you just as much as power.
2004, Bill Auberlen in a Turner Motorsport World Challenge BMW 325i (handling, less ~100 HP): 1:38.786
Handling can get you just as much as power.
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