| RUrunning | 07-23-2006 07:36 PM |
track tires: re070, rt615, rs2 z212, and mx
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yes, i know it's been done to DEATH! i've searched for HOURS, and EVERYONE looking for track tires on the cheap ($125 and under, depending on sizes) has come down to these four tires. so what makes my thread that much different? well, i'll try to go as in depth as i can about each tire and have people correct me with their experiences and advise me based on my PARTICULAR setup, application, and tire criteria. so here goes...
my setup: i have an 04 sti. stock bbs 17x7.5" wheels. lowered on jdm pink springs. group-n strut top mounts. cobb f/r sway bars and whiteline f/r endlinks. sti lateral links and trailing arms. whiteline alk. cusco f/r stb, v-brace, type 2 underbrace, and tic fender cowl braces. whiteline rear diff lock bolts are coming. i'm currently running -1.0* front, -1.3* rear, and 0* toe all around. at my next alignment at westend (so cal represent!), i will probably max out (evenly) my negative front camber, which would probably put me around -1.2* to -1.3* front. other mods include stage 2 sti power, driveline stuff (i heart kartboy and tic), and pads/lines/fluid.
my application: i do NOT autocross, and i've noticed that most of the threads on these tires turn into lengthy hijacks about local events. [COLOR=Red]PLEASE do NOT talk about your local autocross beyond how it pertains to the tires in question.[/COLOR] these tires will be used for driving to/from the track and for hpde's only, so ALL ride/comfort, nvh, wet/rain traction, and such other daily driving matters are a non-issue. also, i am NOT competing, so the tires will NOT be shaved. and for you locals, the tracks will be streets of willow, buttonwillow, and possibly laguna seca.
my criteria: i have gone through the stock re070's and am currently riding on take-offs, so these are my ONLY benchmark for how tires perform. i would stick with these forever if there were an endless, easily accessible supply of take-offs, but i am tired of constantly looking/worrying about finding that diamond in the rough, so i'm considering regular retail MAX performance tires. i've narrowed it down to these four tires based PURELY on which tires 125 a piece and under perform the best. i know not to expect ANY street tire to compare to the re070's sidewall stiffness and turn-in. so based on your experience, nasioc, try to give a general feeling on how well these tires rank.
my priorities go (from highest to lowest):
tire life -> response to heat (so cal tracks) -> max dry grip (lateral and longitudinal) -> turn-in response -> weight (non-issue) -> ride/comfort (non-issues)
now on to the tires:
1) re070- the oe tires to have. VERY good wear (non-directional, so they can be swapped left-to-right to even the wear out), take heat well UP-TO-A-POINT (and then they go all greasey), insane amounts of dry grip (i know, i know... for camber challenged cars, so do my alignment specs qualify as "camber challenged"?), and the herculian side-walls that respond/turn-in like a champ.
2) rt615- pretty good wear (non-directional), handle heat better than re070 (have also read that they go really greasey past a certain point), generally regarded to grip less than the re070's (does my car have enough negative camber to offset this?) and VERY mixed reviews about whether they grip better than z212's, and the next stiffest sidewall to the re070.
3) rs2 z212- mediocre wear (directional and sounds like people are heat-cycling these to death), they don't like the heat, once again VERY mixed reviews on how their dry grip compares to the re070 and rt615, and disappointingly soft sidewalls (especially after riding on re070's).
4) mx- good wear, like the heat (unsure about how much), good grip (but once again, how does it stack up against the others), and softer sidewalls.
obviously i know less and less about each tire in the list :lol: . but on a final note, i am wondering about tire sizes. i am considering 225/45 (oe), 235/40-5 (depending on which tire and what fits), and 245/40-5 (also depending on tire/fitment). remember, i have an 04, so 7.5" wide wheels. which will give me the best compromise of traction, turn-in, and gearing for the track (once again, NOT autocross)?
i know this is LOOONG, but thanks in advance for you help nasioc.
-kevin
my setup: i have an 04 sti. stock bbs 17x7.5" wheels. lowered on jdm pink springs. group-n strut top mounts. cobb f/r sway bars and whiteline f/r endlinks. sti lateral links and trailing arms. whiteline alk. cusco f/r stb, v-brace, type 2 underbrace, and tic fender cowl braces. whiteline rear diff lock bolts are coming. i'm currently running -1.0* front, -1.3* rear, and 0* toe all around. at my next alignment at westend (so cal represent!), i will probably max out (evenly) my negative front camber, which would probably put me around -1.2* to -1.3* front. other mods include stage 2 sti power, driveline stuff (i heart kartboy and tic), and pads/lines/fluid.
my application: i do NOT autocross, and i've noticed that most of the threads on these tires turn into lengthy hijacks about local events. [COLOR=Red]PLEASE do NOT talk about your local autocross beyond how it pertains to the tires in question.[/COLOR] these tires will be used for driving to/from the track and for hpde's only, so ALL ride/comfort, nvh, wet/rain traction, and such other daily driving matters are a non-issue. also, i am NOT competing, so the tires will NOT be shaved. and for you locals, the tracks will be streets of willow, buttonwillow, and possibly laguna seca.
my criteria: i have gone through the stock re070's and am currently riding on take-offs, so these are my ONLY benchmark for how tires perform. i would stick with these forever if there were an endless, easily accessible supply of take-offs, but i am tired of constantly looking/worrying about finding that diamond in the rough, so i'm considering regular retail MAX performance tires. i've narrowed it down to these four tires based PURELY on which tires 125 a piece and under perform the best. i know not to expect ANY street tire to compare to the re070's sidewall stiffness and turn-in. so based on your experience, nasioc, try to give a general feeling on how well these tires rank.
my priorities go (from highest to lowest):
tire life -> response to heat (so cal tracks) -> max dry grip (lateral and longitudinal) -> turn-in response -> weight (non-issue) -> ride/comfort (non-issues)
now on to the tires:
1) re070- the oe tires to have. VERY good wear (non-directional, so they can be swapped left-to-right to even the wear out), take heat well UP-TO-A-POINT (and then they go all greasey), insane amounts of dry grip (i know, i know... for camber challenged cars, so do my alignment specs qualify as "camber challenged"?), and the herculian side-walls that respond/turn-in like a champ.
2) rt615- pretty good wear (non-directional), handle heat better than re070 (have also read that they go really greasey past a certain point), generally regarded to grip less than the re070's (does my car have enough negative camber to offset this?) and VERY mixed reviews about whether they grip better than z212's, and the next stiffest sidewall to the re070.
3) rs2 z212- mediocre wear (directional and sounds like people are heat-cycling these to death), they don't like the heat, once again VERY mixed reviews on how their dry grip compares to the re070 and rt615, and disappointingly soft sidewalls (especially after riding on re070's).
4) mx- good wear, like the heat (unsure about how much), good grip (but once again, how does it stack up against the others), and softer sidewalls.
obviously i know less and less about each tire in the list :lol: . but on a final note, i am wondering about tire sizes. i am considering 225/45 (oe), 235/40-5 (depending on which tire and what fits), and 245/40-5 (also depending on tire/fitment). remember, i have an 04, so 7.5" wide wheels. which will give me the best compromise of traction, turn-in, and gearing for the track (once again, NOT autocross)?
i know this is LOOONG, but thanks in advance for you help nasioc.
-kevin
| flyboymike | 07-23-2006 08:50 PM |
If you're using these just for the track and the drive to the track, is there any reason for not going with one of the long-wearing R-compounds, like the Toyo RA-1 or Victoracer? Too much money/too much wear on the streets?
| Patrick Olsen | 07-23-2006 09:09 PM |
I would think they're all pretty darn close on grip and life expectancy, but based on what I've read and experienced indirectly (by way of my brother's experience) I think the MX is the best of the 4 for hot track days. He used them as daily driver/auto-x/track tires on his 2000 Eclipse when we were both stationed out in Hawaii. Track days probably weren't quite as hot as you can experience out there in the Cali desert, but a [i]cool[/i] day at the track on Oahu was high 80s, and I'm sure track temps were pretty damn high with the asphalt soaking up the sun. On a car with something like 63% fwd weight bias he never had problems over-cooking the tires.
I don't think the MXs have soft sidewalls, either. Maybe soft[i]er[/i] than the RT615s (which from what I've read are very firm), but I wouldn't say they're soft.
Oh, and I would tend to agree with flyboymike, that one of the longer lasting R-compounds would do you just as well (if not better) than the 4 street tires you've listed. When I used Victoracers I drove to/from auto-x events (about 80-90 miles each way), to/from track events (when I was in CT Lime Rock was a 2+ hour drive each way), etc etc. Out in HI I often left the Victoracers on the car between auto-x events (which were monthly). I never really tracked mileage, but I imagine you could get ~5000 miles out of a set of Victoracers. RA-1s would last even longer and don't give up much at all to the Victoracers on track.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
I don't think the MXs have soft sidewalls, either. Maybe soft[i]er[/i] than the RT615s (which from what I've read are very firm), but I wouldn't say they're soft.
Oh, and I would tend to agree with flyboymike, that one of the longer lasting R-compounds would do you just as well (if not better) than the 4 street tires you've listed. When I used Victoracers I drove to/from auto-x events (about 80-90 miles each way), to/from track events (when I was in CT Lime Rock was a 2+ hour drive each way), etc etc. Out in HI I often left the Victoracers on the car between auto-x events (which were monthly). I never really tracked mileage, but I imagine you could get ~5000 miles out of a set of Victoracers. RA-1s would last even longer and don't give up much at all to the Victoracers on track.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| roofis | 07-23-2006 09:26 PM |
i'll take a shot at this. i have an L, a 98 L model impreza (megan coilovers, stock anti roll bars.) and in its full, 137hp fury, i pack -2.5" of camber up front and -1/2" rear. its a far cry in every direction from the sti but IMO, unless you're getting ultra wide tires, i'd run far and fast from the hankook 212 for a track day tire with a modded sti, especially in california heat.
my circuit track experience is limited to Spokane Raceway Park in Spokane, Wa. the straightaway at that course will allow a lightly modded sti 140mph before you brake into a long, sweeping downhill but cambered right hand turn. I've had them out (size 225/45/16) in cool, rainy spring & fall days and hot, HOT (mid to upper 90s) dry summer days. They get greasy quick. maybe....5 or 6 laps at most including warmup I stay out before I just start slipping all over the place. I've been in STI's and Evos with the oem tire sets who stay out for 10 laps or so easily. I think the sti would be too heavy and too powerful for a mere 212. having said that, i've never driven an sti with the hankooks so do with that info as you like. plus if you're not competing, it may not be that much of an issue.
i can't comment much on the wear but i've got about 1/4"-3/16" (eyeballing it) left on these and that's after 4 track days, lots of daily driving and autocrosses too. i haven't been keeping track of how much dd i do on these tires so that's the wild card but you definitely won't get the mileage I've gotten from these with an A048 or similar.
I also have the 615 in 205/40/16. soooooper stiff sidewall here. i've not had these tires for long and i bought them slightly used so i'm not going to try and record how many miles these have taken. i've also not had them out for a hot day at the track, but when i took them there last it was cool (50s-ish) and it went from cool and cloudy to raining, to pouring rain with strong wind, and back to cool and cloudy.
in the wet, i'll take these tires any day over the hankooks. i could brake sooner and harder with these than the kooks and the speedo and butt dyno recorded slightly faster cornering speeds than with the 212 also. they just felt more controllable than the 212. the sidewalls at work there but i didnt feel at all as if i was on the limit of the 615's compound when compared to the 212. the 615 was responsive and even playfull while the 212 just felt numb and passive. with the azenis, i stayed out for about 7-8 laps at a time before i realized all the raining and red bull would make me have to go to the bathroom but i could have kept going with no problems from the tires at all. i loved them and will be buying another set when my current 615s are used up.
they're not that far apart from each other, it's a difference you'll notice and apreciate, but it's not night and day. more like afternoon to evening or something like that..
...and yes my capital letters are inconsistent.
my circuit track experience is limited to Spokane Raceway Park in Spokane, Wa. the straightaway at that course will allow a lightly modded sti 140mph before you brake into a long, sweeping downhill but cambered right hand turn. I've had them out (size 225/45/16) in cool, rainy spring & fall days and hot, HOT (mid to upper 90s) dry summer days. They get greasy quick. maybe....5 or 6 laps at most including warmup I stay out before I just start slipping all over the place. I've been in STI's and Evos with the oem tire sets who stay out for 10 laps or so easily. I think the sti would be too heavy and too powerful for a mere 212. having said that, i've never driven an sti with the hankooks so do with that info as you like. plus if you're not competing, it may not be that much of an issue.
i can't comment much on the wear but i've got about 1/4"-3/16" (eyeballing it) left on these and that's after 4 track days, lots of daily driving and autocrosses too. i haven't been keeping track of how much dd i do on these tires so that's the wild card but you definitely won't get the mileage I've gotten from these with an A048 or similar.
I also have the 615 in 205/40/16. soooooper stiff sidewall here. i've not had these tires for long and i bought them slightly used so i'm not going to try and record how many miles these have taken. i've also not had them out for a hot day at the track, but when i took them there last it was cool (50s-ish) and it went from cool and cloudy to raining, to pouring rain with strong wind, and back to cool and cloudy.
in the wet, i'll take these tires any day over the hankooks. i could brake sooner and harder with these than the kooks and the speedo and butt dyno recorded slightly faster cornering speeds than with the 212 also. they just felt more controllable than the 212. the sidewalls at work there but i didnt feel at all as if i was on the limit of the 615's compound when compared to the 212. the 615 was responsive and even playfull while the 212 just felt numb and passive. with the azenis, i stayed out for about 7-8 laps at a time before i realized all the raining and red bull would make me have to go to the bathroom but i could have kept going with no problems from the tires at all. i loved them and will be buying another set when my current 615s are used up.
they're not that far apart from each other, it's a difference you'll notice and apreciate, but it's not night and day. more like afternoon to evening or something like that..
...and yes my capital letters are inconsistent.
| RUrunning | 07-23-2006 09:29 PM |
[QUOTE=flyboymike]If you're using these just for the track and the drive to the track, is there any reason for not going with one of the long-wearing R-compounds, like the Toyo RA-1 or Victoracer? Too much money/too much wear on the streets?[/QUOTE]
plain old money... :(
i am running a street/track setup right now, and when this wears out, i will be buying TWO sets of tires, pads, and rotors: one for the street and one for the track.
aside from that, the stickier the tires, the more expensive everything else gets: pads, rotors, wheel bearings...
plain old money... :(
i am running a street/track setup right now, and when this wears out, i will be buying TWO sets of tires, pads, and rotors: one for the street and one for the track.
aside from that, the stickier the tires, the more expensive everything else gets: pads, rotors, wheel bearings...
| RUrunning | 07-23-2006 09:35 PM |
[QUOTE=Patrick Olsen]Oh, and I would tend to agree with flyboymike, that one of the longer lasting R-compounds would do you just as well (if not better) than the 4 street tires you've listed. When I used Victoracers I drove to/from auto-x events (about 80-90 miles each way), to/from track events (when I was in CT Lime Rock was a 2+ hour drive each way), etc etc. Out in HI I often left the Victoracers on the car between auto-x events (which were monthly). I never really tracked mileage, but I imagine you could get ~5000 miles out of a set of Victoracers. RA-1s would last even longer and don't give up much at all to the Victoracers on track.[/QUOTE]
hmmm... yeah. i WAS thinking about digging deep and getting some ra-1's... but it's going to be at LEAST 240 more to run them in a decent size. and once again, i don't want to get into the increased wear that's associated with much stickier tires on all the other items.
hmmm... yeah. i WAS thinking about digging deep and getting some ra-1's... but it's going to be at LEAST 240 more to run them in a decent size. and once again, i don't want to get into the increased wear that's associated with much stickier tires on all the other items.
| RUrunning | 07-23-2006 09:54 PM |
[QUOTE=roofis]IMO, unless you're getting ultra wide tires, i'd run far and fast from the hankook 212 for a track day tire with a modded sti, especially in california heat.[/QUOTE]
yeah, right now z212's are last on my "must have" list
yeah, right now z212's are last on my "must have" list
| REX8 | 07-23-2006 10:10 PM |
Not really much of a question given your list.
The MX's are really the only tires that deal with track heat well....and their cheap.
The MX's are really the only tires that deal with track heat well....and their cheap.
| RUrunning | 07-23-2006 10:24 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8]Not really much of a question given your list.
The MX's are really the only tires that deal with track heat well....and their cheap.[/QUOTE]
yeah, basically the "order" of my priorities isn't that fixed. those four things (wear, heat, grip, and turn-in) are all important. i just tried to think up on the spot which is slightly more important, and it came out like that, but i may feel differently about the order later.
anyways, so the mx is significantly better than the rest at taking the heat?
The MX's are really the only tires that deal with track heat well....and their cheap.[/QUOTE]
yeah, basically the "order" of my priorities isn't that fixed. those four things (wear, heat, grip, and turn-in) are all important. i just tried to think up on the spot which is slightly more important, and it came out like that, but i may feel differently about the order later.
anyways, so the mx is significantly better than the rest at taking the heat?
| makofoto | 07-23-2006 10:33 PM |
Best bet ... used RA-1's from World Challenge teams. A buddy has gotten many months of auto crossing use out of his $50/used RA1 tire. They love heat. You can also buy $100/tire used RA1's that would have even more life left in them. One problem, they are only available in 235/40/17 ... and for track use I would want 245/45/17's.
Look under used/clearance.
[url]http://tinyurl.com/p5pjb[/url]
Look under used/clearance.
[url]http://tinyurl.com/p5pjb[/url]
| RUrunning | 07-23-2006 10:36 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto] One problem, they are only available in 235/40/17 ... and for track use I would want 245/45/17's.[/QUOTE]
see, my very inexperienced impression was that the 245/45 tire would help keep an sti in 2nd gear for AUTOCROSS, but for the track, the lower-profile wheel and increased acceleration out of corners would be favored by the 235/40 tire
see, my very inexperienced impression was that the 245/45 tire would help keep an sti in 2nd gear for AUTOCROSS, but for the track, the lower-profile wheel and increased acceleration out of corners would be favored by the 235/40 tire
| RUrunning | 07-23-2006 10:41 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Best bet ... used RA-1's from World Challenge teams. [/QUOTE]
i am just so paranoid about buying used wear items, like tires, that i have no way of seeing/returning. anyone else have experience with these take offs? a $50 "get what you pay for" tire just seems like the peak of subjectivity to me.
i am just so paranoid about buying used wear items, like tires, that i have no way of seeing/returning. anyone else have experience with these take offs? a $50 "get what you pay for" tire just seems like the peak of subjectivity to me.
| REX8 | 07-23-2006 10:44 PM |
[QUOTE=RUrunning]yeah, basically the "order" of my priorities isn't that fixed. those four things (wear, heat, grip, and turn-in) are all important. i just tried to think up on the spot which is slightly more important, and it came out like that, but i may feel differently about the order later.
anyways, so the mx is significantly better than the rest at taking the heat?[/QUOTE]
Well, I think for track work, your priorities have tochange. The MX's are significantly better with heat and laster longer than the others.
Grip and turn in don't really mean much with a greased up tire...obviously
The MX's will have more grip on track and last longer. Your out-lap may be slower, but after you get heat in them...forget it.
No amount of sidewall stiffness can make up for the fact that the tire doesn't work with heat. And the MX's aren't exactly a weak sidewall either.
anyways, so the mx is significantly better than the rest at taking the heat?[/QUOTE]
Well, I think for track work, your priorities have tochange. The MX's are significantly better with heat and laster longer than the others.
Grip and turn in don't really mean much with a greased up tire...obviously
The MX's will have more grip on track and last longer. Your out-lap may be slower, but after you get heat in them...forget it.
No amount of sidewall stiffness can make up for the fact that the tire doesn't work with heat. And the MX's aren't exactly a weak sidewall either.
| RUrunning | 07-23-2006 10:51 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8]Well, I think for track work, your priorities have tochange. The MX's are significantly better with heat and laster longer than the others.
Grip and turn in don't really mean much with a greased up tire...obviously
The MX's will have more grip on track and last longer. Your out-lap may be slower, but after you get heat in them...forget it.
No amount of sidewall stiffness can make up for the fact that the tire doesn't work with heat. And the MX's aren't exactly a weak sidewall either.[/QUOTE]
you make a SEXCELLENT point my good sir :lol:
do you have any links to threads about the mx handling heat well? i've seen it here and there in an off-handed manner, but it's hard searching the term "mx" on nasioc...
oh, an once again, about the ra-1's. the more i think about it, the more FUN it seems like, but the also less wise. i am probably going to be doing some guinea-pigging on yellowstuff-r pads and a rotora blanks (both of which are pretty cheap, but have VERY little information available on them... count on a good write up if i do go this route ;) ), and right now my feelings are that those pads and rotors, while most likely fine for max performance tires on the track, might show why they're so much cheaper than the competition on a true r-compound.
Grip and turn in don't really mean much with a greased up tire...obviously
The MX's will have more grip on track and last longer. Your out-lap may be slower, but after you get heat in them...forget it.
No amount of sidewall stiffness can make up for the fact that the tire doesn't work with heat. And the MX's aren't exactly a weak sidewall either.[/QUOTE]
you make a SEXCELLENT point my good sir :lol:
do you have any links to threads about the mx handling heat well? i've seen it here and there in an off-handed manner, but it's hard searching the term "mx" on nasioc...
oh, an once again, about the ra-1's. the more i think about it, the more FUN it seems like, but the also less wise. i am probably going to be doing some guinea-pigging on yellowstuff-r pads and a rotora blanks (both of which are pretty cheap, but have VERY little information available on them... count on a good write up if i do go this route ;) ), and right now my feelings are that those pads and rotors, while most likely fine for max performance tires on the track, might show why they're so much cheaper than the competition on a true r-compound.
| roofis | 07-23-2006 11:09 PM |
jamie thomas, "subiegal" uses the ebc yellow stuff pads on her wrx rally car. she's sponsored by them as well so she has some pretty decent experence with ebc. [URL=http://www.subiegal.com/productreview/ebcyellowstuff/ebcbrakes_yellowstuff_review.htm]here's[/URL] her review.
i [SIZE=1]autocross [/SIZE] with a guy that has an old civic hatchback and avon r comps. the combo will make your eyes bulge out of your head, nice bite but then i've not gotten them more heated up than that so i can't tell you about longevity.
i'm waiting to get out of P class so i can switch out my brakes & take advantage of the $180 for 4 corners of race pad.
i [SIZE=1]autocross [/SIZE] with a guy that has an old civic hatchback and avon r comps. the combo will make your eyes bulge out of your head, nice bite but then i've not gotten them more heated up than that so i can't tell you about longevity.
i'm waiting to get out of P class so i can switch out my brakes & take advantage of the $180 for 4 corners of race pad.
| RUrunning | 07-23-2006 11:37 PM |
[QUOTE=roofis]jamie thomas, "subiegal" uses the ebc yellow stuff pads on her wrx rally car. she's sponsored by them as well so she has some pretty decent experence with ebc.[/QUOTE]
yeah, jamie is the ONLY reason i'm even considering these at all. aside from her, there are about three relatively unknowns using and promoting them (no offense to those guys, as i've been in contact with them, as well as with jamie. but i won't kid myself and think that everyone knows who rurunning is either ;) ). she has been very helpful, but i'm still not expecting that much from these pads. i'm not being pessimistic, but i'm trying not to set my standards unreasonably high, because in the end, i'm just looking for a budget track pad.
yeah, jamie is the ONLY reason i'm even considering these at all. aside from her, there are about three relatively unknowns using and promoting them (no offense to those guys, as i've been in contact with them, as well as with jamie. but i won't kid myself and think that everyone knows who rurunning is either ;) ). she has been very helpful, but i'm still not expecting that much from these pads. i'm not being pessimistic, but i'm trying not to set my standards unreasonably high, because in the end, i'm just looking for a budget track pad.
| RUrunning | 07-23-2006 11:41 PM |
any more info on the aspect ratios and gearing for a track sti would be appreciated, as i'm only speculating here.
| RUrunning | 07-24-2006 03:53 PM |
bump for info.
right now i'm leaning toward the mx, but the rt615 is still an option. don't really want ra-1's or z212's anymore. re070's would be nice, but i'm not counting on them.
right now i'm leaning toward the mx, but the rt615 is still an option. don't really want ra-1's or z212's anymore. re070's would be nice, but i'm not counting on them.
| RUrunning | 07-24-2006 09:08 PM |
mods, would you mind moving this to the wheel and tire forum? i certainly wouldn't want to cross post, and i was wondering if i could get some more info over there
| Erexxx | 07-30-2006 03:00 AM |
wow great thing I have stumbled upon this thread...
I am in the same EXACT predicament as you..
about a month ago I purchased falken fk451's and already ran 2 track days on them. Let's just say there are nice big chunks of rubber missing from the tread blocks..yeah not so good. Even could be considered dangerous during high speed run ins.
So, with that said I need to get a tire that can handle daily driving and track events without losing massive chunks of rubber...
One thing I noticed is that for the mx's they don't make them in 235/40/17 so I'd have to run a 245/40/17. Any one with this size on a 02-05 wrx without rubbing?
I know that I can fit the 235 azenis so that right there might even by my deciding factor..
I am in the same EXACT predicament as you..
about a month ago I purchased falken fk451's and already ran 2 track days on them. Let's just say there are nice big chunks of rubber missing from the tread blocks..yeah not so good. Even could be considered dangerous during high speed run ins.
So, with that said I need to get a tire that can handle daily driving and track events without losing massive chunks of rubber...
One thing I noticed is that for the mx's they don't make them in 235/40/17 so I'd have to run a 245/40/17. Any one with this size on a 02-05 wrx without rubbing?
I know that I can fit the 235 azenis so that right there might even by my deciding factor..
| makofoto | 07-30-2006 08:12 AM |
What size wheel
| blue blurr | 07-30-2006 01:06 PM |
I can't give you much info, but I have been running rt615's on the track for some time and so far have had no problems at all. The set on my subaru are on the ware bars, but they still have all there grip even after a few sessions on track. I also have a newer set on my Miata.
| RUrunning | 07-30-2006 03:55 PM |
[QUOTE=blue blurr]I can't give you much info, but I have been running rt615's on the track for some time and so far have had no problems at all. The set on my subaru are on the ware bars, but they still have all there grip even after a few sessions on track. I also have a newer set on my Miata.[/QUOTE]
how well would you say that they handle heat? i mean, i know the mx's take high temps well, but i was unsure how the rt615 stacks up. if it was comparable or *gasp* better with heat than the mx's i would probably go with the falkens.
how well would you say that they handle heat? i mean, i know the mx's take high temps well, but i was unsure how the rt615 stacks up. if it was comparable or *gasp* better with heat than the mx's i would probably go with the falkens.
| REX8 | 07-30-2006 04:45 PM |
[QUOTE=RUrunning]how well would you say that they handle heat? i mean, i know the mx's take high temps well, but i was unsure how the rt615 stacks up. if it was comparable or *gasp* better with heat than the mx's i would probably go with the falkens.[/QUOTE]
No, the 615's are better than the 215's were, but not nearly as good as the MX's.
Is fairly well known that the Falkens aren't the way to go on the track.
What more do you want? There is a right answer, you have it...
The MX's don't have a soft sidewall, just not as stiff as the 615's, in any case, a stiff sidewall doesn't mean anything when your rubber is all greased up anyway.
It seems like you don't want the answer to be the MX's...in that case...buy what you want...
So on a side by side....I'm not sure how the more expensive, shorter living, less-gripping (when hot) tire is in consideration???
^^^Are we missing something???
No, the 615's are better than the 215's were, but not nearly as good as the MX's.
Is fairly well known that the Falkens aren't the way to go on the track.
What more do you want? There is a right answer, you have it...
The MX's don't have a soft sidewall, just not as stiff as the 615's, in any case, a stiff sidewall doesn't mean anything when your rubber is all greased up anyway.
It seems like you don't want the answer to be the MX's...in that case...buy what you want...
So on a side by side....I'm not sure how the more expensive, shorter living, less-gripping (when hot) tire is in consideration???
^^^Are we missing something???
| RUrunning | 07-30-2006 05:15 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8]No, the 615's are better than the 215's were, but not nearly as good as the MX's.
Is fairly well known that the Falkens aren't the way to go on the track.
What more do you want? There is a right answer, you have it...
The MX's don't have a soft sidewall, just not as stiff as the 615's, in any case, a stiff sidewall doesn't mean anything when your rubber is all greased up anyway.
It seems like you don't want the answer to be the MX's...in that case...buy what you want...
So on a side by side....I'm not sure how the more expensive, shorter living, less-gripping (when hot) tire is in consideration???
^^^Are we missing something???[/QUOTE]
calm down there buddy. things you say are "well known" i have only seen said by you. that is all. but i will take you for your word, as i have found you to be someone regularly in the know. so mx's will be my next track tire. just got some re070 to burn through first.
Is fairly well known that the Falkens aren't the way to go on the track.
What more do you want? There is a right answer, you have it...
The MX's don't have a soft sidewall, just not as stiff as the 615's, in any case, a stiff sidewall doesn't mean anything when your rubber is all greased up anyway.
It seems like you don't want the answer to be the MX's...in that case...buy what you want...
So on a side by side....I'm not sure how the more expensive, shorter living, less-gripping (when hot) tire is in consideration???
^^^Are we missing something???[/QUOTE]
calm down there buddy. things you say are "well known" i have only seen said by you. that is all. but i will take you for your word, as i have found you to be someone regularly in the know. so mx's will be my next track tire. just got some re070 to burn through first.
| REX8 | 07-30-2006 05:19 PM |
^^^What? There are dozens of threads on the 615's as track tires...
You made the right choice...enjoy...
You made the right choice...enjoy...
| RUrunning | 07-30-2006 05:22 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8]^^^What? There are dozens of threads on the 615's as track tires...
You made the right choice...enjoy...[/QUOTE]
but you have to remember how hard it is to search "mx" on this forum
You made the right choice...enjoy...[/QUOTE]
but you have to remember how hard it is to search "mx" on this forum
| Erexxx | 07-31-2006 01:12 AM |
Nice, so you're going with the MX's, I'm gunna go ahead and try the falkens. I'll report back after my track day and you should do the same.
| lugee | 07-31-2006 01:18 AM |
rs2's arent very good with heat. i ran one event with them and they kept heating up to the point where you can literally see the rubber melting off like glue. They didnt feel as good as my old RT215's.
| RUrunning | 07-31-2006 05:34 AM |
[QUOTE=lugee]rs2's arent very good with heat. i ran one event with them and they kept heating up to the point where you can literally see the rubber melting off like glue. They didnt feel as good as my old RT215's.[/QUOTE]
howdy luis ;)
i'm trying to get up to the willow springs event this weekend, but i need to sort out a misfire issue first :(
howdy luis ;)
i'm trying to get up to the willow springs event this weekend, but i need to sort out a misfire issue first :(
| pio!pio! | 07-31-2006 01:34 PM |
I have tracked w/ both the RT615 and MX and I like the 615 better (keep in mind my car is not a Subaru..it is hundreds of pounds lighter..etc) The MX's sidewalls were too floppy..I was running 45psi hot and still getting my tires to shake in steady state corners
w/ the 615 I run 40psi hot and it' fine on the same corners...
As for the argument against RA-1's becuase they are too expensive...if they lasted longer than the street tires, wouldn't they be better value? If it's a tire just for the track..should get a tire that is designed for the track...it will last longer
w/ the 615 I run 40psi hot and it' fine on the same corners...
As for the argument against RA-1's becuase they are too expensive...if they lasted longer than the street tires, wouldn't they be better value? If it's a tire just for the track..should get a tire that is designed for the track...it will last longer
| blue blurr | 07-31-2006 01:37 PM |
What about Advan Neova's, or are they out of the price range? I haven't heard much info on the MX's just that they are an entry level tire, but not nearly as good as Azenis or Neova. Has there been any test that has the data that shows the Kumho Mx's being better track tires? I need new tires and was considering Advan Neova's but they're pretty expensive.
| RUrunning | 07-31-2006 04:08 PM |
[QUOTE=pio!pio!]I have tracked w/ both the RT615 and MX and I like the 615 better (keep in mind my car is not a Subaru..it is hundreds of pounds lighter..etc) The MX's sidewalls were too floppy..I was running 45psi hot and still getting my tires to shake in steady state corners
w/ the 615 I run 40psi hot and it' fine on the same corners...
As for the argument against RA-1's becuase they are too expensive...if they lasted longer than the street tires, wouldn't they be better value? If it's a tire just for the track..should get a tire that is designed for the track...it will last longer[/QUOTE]
yeah, but when you get r-compound tires, EVERYTHING gets more expensive is what i'm saying.
w/ the 615 I run 40psi hot and it' fine on the same corners...
As for the argument against RA-1's becuase they are too expensive...if they lasted longer than the street tires, wouldn't they be better value? If it's a tire just for the track..should get a tire that is designed for the track...it will last longer[/QUOTE]
yeah, but when you get r-compound tires, EVERYTHING gets more expensive is what i'm saying.
| RUrunning | 07-31-2006 04:10 PM |
[QUOTE=blue blurr]What about Advan Neova's, or are they out of the price range? I haven't heard much info on the MX's just that they are an entry level tire, but not nearly as good as Azenis or Neova. Has there been any test that has the data that shows the Kumho Mx's being better track tires? I need new tires and was considering Advan Neova's but they're pretty expensive.[/QUOTE]
yeah, they are above and beyond what i would be willing to spend :(
yeah, they are above and beyond what i would be willing to spend :(
| RogersWRX | 07-31-2006 05:31 PM |
I second and third the choice for the MX's for the track (shaved if you can get them) - they handle the heat exponentially better than any of the other three tires which are much better suited for AutoX - plus there's a $40 rebate if you buy a set of four before the end of August!
[url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=ECSTA+MX&partnum=345YR7EMX&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=0[/url]
BTW - I'd love to see someone try the 245/40/17 MX's on a 17x7.5 rim - the 235/45/17's fit with no problem, but are a little tall. The softer sidewall on the MX should make it easier to shoehorn on a narrower rim, a lot like people do with Hoosier race tires...
[url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=ECSTA+MX&partnum=345YR7EMX&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=0[/url]
BTW - I'd love to see someone try the 245/40/17 MX's on a 17x7.5 rim - the 235/45/17's fit with no problem, but are a little tall. The softer sidewall on the MX should make it easier to shoehorn on a narrower rim, a lot like people do with Hoosier race tires...
| RUrunning | 07-31-2006 06:27 PM |
[QUOTE=RogersWRX]I second and third the choice for the MX's for the track (shaved if you can get them) - they handle the heat exponentially better than any of the other three tires which are much better suited for AutoX - plus there's a $40 rebate if you buy a set of four before the end of August!
[url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=ECSTA+MX&partnum=345YR7EMX&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=0[/url]
BTW - I'd love to see someone try the 245/40/17 MX's on a 17x7.5 rim - the 235/45/17's fit with no problem, but are a little tall. The softer sidewall on the MX should make it easier to shoehorn on a narrower rim, a lot like people do with Hoosier race tires...[/QUOTE]
i believe 245/40 on a 7.5" wheel compromises the sidewall angle. stretching r-compounds is a lot different than street tires.
[url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=ECSTA+MX&partnum=345YR7EMX&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=0[/url]
BTW - I'd love to see someone try the 245/40/17 MX's on a 17x7.5 rim - the 235/45/17's fit with no problem, but are a little tall. The softer sidewall on the MX should make it easier to shoehorn on a narrower rim, a lot like people do with Hoosier race tires...[/QUOTE]
i believe 245/40 on a 7.5" wheel compromises the sidewall angle. stretching r-compounds is a lot different than street tires.
| Erexxx | 08-01-2006 06:06 PM |
alright well i went ahead and ordered the 245 mx's.
hopefully i wont have any rubbing problems on my 03 sedan.
hopefully i wont have any rubbing problems on my 03 sedan.
| RogersWRX | 08-01-2006 06:31 PM |
Excellent!! - In theory you might have sidewall flex problems, like RUrunning said, but in theory squeezing Hoosiers Race tires onto a narrow rim should have problems also, but everyone now knows that works great!! So until someobody tries it and proves it one way or the other, there's no way to really say for sure!!
Please report back and let us know how they work!!
Please report back and let us know how they work!!
| Erexxx | 08-01-2006 07:23 PM |
[QUOTE=RogersWRX]Excellent!! - In theory you might have sidewall flex problems, like RUrunning said, but in theory squeezing Hoosiers Race tires onto a narrow rim should have problems also, but everyone now knows that works great!! So until someobody tries it and proves it one way or the other, there's no way to really say for sure!!
Please report back and let us know how they work!![/QUOTE]
well my wheels are 17x8 so I don't think I should have any sidewall problems at all...hmmm
Please report back and let us know how they work!![/QUOTE]
well my wheels are 17x8 so I don't think I should have any sidewall problems at all...hmmm
| import111 | 08-01-2006 08:10 PM |
[QUOTE=Erexxx]well my wheels are 17x8 so I don't think I should have any sidewall problems at all...hmmm[/QUOTE]
MX's have a pretty soft sidewall. You will get sidewall flex when cornering hard and making quick transitions. But they are also sticky, so if you don't mind a soft sidewall, they should be fine.
MX's have a pretty soft sidewall. You will get sidewall flex when cornering hard and making quick transitions. But they are also sticky, so if you don't mind a soft sidewall, they should be fine.
| Erexxx | 08-01-2006 08:29 PM |
[QUOTE=import111]MX's have a pretty soft sidewall. You will get sidewall flex when cornering hard and making quick transitions. But they are also sticky, so if you don't mind a soft sidewall, they should be fine.[/QUOTE]
Are you sure? I've always though the MX's sidewalls were just a tad under the stiffness of the azenis...
Are you sure? I've always though the MX's sidewalls were just a tad under the stiffness of the azenis...
| Ryokosman | 08-01-2006 11:26 PM |
[QUOTE=RUrunning]yeah, jamie is the ONLY reason i'm even considering these at all. aside from her, there are about three relatively unknowns using and promoting them (no offense to those guys, as i've been in contact with them, as well as with jamie. but i won't kid myself and think that everyone knows who rurunning is either ;) ). she has been very helpful, but i'm still not expecting that much from these pads. i'm not being pessimistic, but i'm trying not to set my standards unreasonably high, because in the end, i'm just looking for a budget track pad.[/QUOTE]
Just my 2 cents.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13377919&postcount=13[/url]
Just my 2 cents.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13377919&postcount=13[/url]
| makofoto | 08-01-2006 11:33 PM |
With the MX's you will need to time all of your inputs a bit earlier so that the softer sidewalls can "catch up." You will need to drive aggressively, which you will need to do at first anyway to get some heat into the tires ... but be careful until they are warmed up.
| Aleksey | 08-02-2006 02:43 AM |
[QUOTE=RUrunning]yes, i know it's been done to DEATH! i've searched for HOURS, and EVERYONE looking for track tires on the cheap ([COLOR=Red]$125 and under, depending on sizes[/COLOR]) has come down to these four tires.
...
[COLOR=Red]1) re070- [/COLOR]
2) rt615-
3) rs2 z212
4) mx-
-kevin[/QUOTE]
May I ask where you guys buy RE070 for $125 from? :confused:
I was only able to find S-03 Pole Position for a good price but I'm not sure if this tire is comparable to RE070.
...
[COLOR=Red]1) re070- [/COLOR]
2) rt615-
3) rs2 z212
4) mx-
-kevin[/QUOTE]
May I ask where you guys buy RE070 for $125 from? :confused:
I was only able to find S-03 Pole Position for a good price but I'm not sure if this tire is comparable to RE070.
| RUrunning | 08-02-2006 04:08 AM |
[QUOTE=Aleksey]May I ask where you guys buy RE070 for $125 from? :confused:
I was only able to find S-03 Pole Position for a good price but I'm not sure if this tire is comparable to RE070.[/QUOTE]
they be takeoffs.... yarrr!
I was only able to find S-03 Pole Position for a good price but I'm not sure if this tire is comparable to RE070.[/QUOTE]
they be takeoffs.... yarrr!
| Erexxx | 08-02-2006 12:38 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]With the MX's you will need to time all of your inputs a bit earlier so that the softer sidewalls can "catch up." You will need to drive aggressively, which you will need to do at first anyway to get some heat into the tires ... but be careful until they are warmed up.[/QUOTE]
eh anything is better than the chunked falken fk451's on my car right now
eh anything is better than the chunked falken fk451's on my car right now
| blue blurr | 08-02-2006 01:09 PM |
Take off tires? As in replica Bridgestone�s?? haha
| PKer | 08-02-2006 02:05 PM |
As in taken off another car. I use RE-070 takeoffs as my street tires.
| grippgoat | 08-02-2006 05:17 PM |
Disclaimer: I haven't read the whole thread.
(EDIT: doh, looks like the tires are already ordered)
Here's my experience, though.
RE070:
I overheat these in about 3 laps. Stage 2 STI with Tein Flex and rear sway. Still, they're really sticky and wear well, and are cheap if you just always buy take-offs. I imagine further suspension tuning to improve the car balance would help, but as it is, the front end just gets greasy after a few hard laps. Also pretty poo (but still fun) in the rain.
Hankook RS2:
I have these on my miata. I completely chunked my right-side tires to death (they weren't shaved) in 2 track days. Huge chunks of meat missing from the outside shoulders, down to the cords, looking like someone grabbed the tread and just started tearing. If I can do that on a miata, I don't want to try them on an STI. I really like them for street use, though.
RT615:
I was reading the grassroots motorsports tire review, and it sounds like heat capacity is improved over the 215, but they still had to spray these down to maintain grip after 2 runs.... Since my problem is heating and not grip, I'm not interested in these anymore.
Kumho Ecsta MX:
The same grassroots motorsports article said these seemed to grip more the hotter they got. They said good grip (they've won a national championship in autox), but not as good as the azenis (215 and 615) and maybe a couple others, but seemed really impressed by their heat tolerance. These are what I'm going to try next.
If you're truly just driving to/from the track, and at the track, why not consider an RA1?
-Mike
(EDIT: doh, looks like the tires are already ordered)
Here's my experience, though.
RE070:
I overheat these in about 3 laps. Stage 2 STI with Tein Flex and rear sway. Still, they're really sticky and wear well, and are cheap if you just always buy take-offs. I imagine further suspension tuning to improve the car balance would help, but as it is, the front end just gets greasy after a few hard laps. Also pretty poo (but still fun) in the rain.
Hankook RS2:
I have these on my miata. I completely chunked my right-side tires to death (they weren't shaved) in 2 track days. Huge chunks of meat missing from the outside shoulders, down to the cords, looking like someone grabbed the tread and just started tearing. If I can do that on a miata, I don't want to try them on an STI. I really like them for street use, though.
RT615:
I was reading the grassroots motorsports tire review, and it sounds like heat capacity is improved over the 215, but they still had to spray these down to maintain grip after 2 runs.... Since my problem is heating and not grip, I'm not interested in these anymore.
Kumho Ecsta MX:
The same grassroots motorsports article said these seemed to grip more the hotter they got. They said good grip (they've won a national championship in autox), but not as good as the azenis (215 and 615) and maybe a couple others, but seemed really impressed by their heat tolerance. These are what I'm going to try next.
If you're truly just driving to/from the track, and at the track, why not consider an RA1?
-Mike
| RUrunning | 08-02-2006 06:14 PM |
^ iii haven't ordered yet, that was someone else ;)
and since you were really helpful, i will forgive you not seeing my type about 4 times that ra-1's aren't an option because of a) as new price, and more improtantly b) the wear and tear (and therefore costs) increase on just about EVERYTHING when you switch to an r-compound, so i just don't want to go there, as i'm not competitive.
and since you were really helpful, i will forgive you not seeing my type about 4 times that ra-1's aren't an option because of a) as new price, and more improtantly b) the wear and tear (and therefore costs) increase on just about EVERYTHING when you switch to an r-compound, so i just don't want to go there, as i'm not competitive.
| grippgoat | 08-02-2006 07:30 PM |
[QUOTE=RUrunning]^ iii haven't ordered yet, that was someone else ;)
and since you were really helpful, i will forgive you not seeing my type about 4 times that ra-1's aren't an option because of a) as new price, and more improtantly b) the wear and tear (and therefore costs) increase on just about EVERYTHING when you switch to an r-compound, so i just don't want to go there, as i'm not competitive.[/QUOTE]
I hear ya about costs. I'm already going fast enough on RE070s that brake wear and maintenance cost is an issue. And since I pulled my dust shields, I'm probably killing my balljoints, too. :/ I need to get the shields back on and get some ducting.
-Mike
and since you were really helpful, i will forgive you not seeing my type about 4 times that ra-1's aren't an option because of a) as new price, and more improtantly b) the wear and tear (and therefore costs) increase on just about EVERYTHING when you switch to an r-compound, so i just don't want to go there, as i'm not competitive.[/QUOTE]
I hear ya about costs. I'm already going fast enough on RE070s that brake wear and maintenance cost is an issue. And since I pulled my dust shields, I'm probably killing my balljoints, too. :/ I need to get the shields back on and get some ducting.
-Mike
| PA04STI | 08-03-2006 04:56 PM |
[QUOTE=RUrunning]yeah, jamie is the ONLY reason i'm even considering these at all. aside from her, there are about three relatively unknowns using and promoting them (no offense to those guys, as i've been in contact with them, as well as with jamie. but i won't kid myself and think that everyone knows who rurunning is either ;) ). she has been very helpful, but i'm still not expecting that much from these pads. i'm not being pessimistic, but i'm trying not to set my standards unreasonably high, because in the end, i'm just looking for a budget track pad.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but see she is SPONSORED BY THEM so do you really think she would say there is anything else better. I would get a review by someone who uses them and will give a fair opinion. Haven't heard anything about these.
And good post cause I am looking for the same thing good tires for the price.
I have really been looking at MXs. I am using 245/40/17 Kuhmo SPTs right now they are nice no issues just the car and me getting better are out performing the 320 threadware tires so I need at least a 200ish threadware.
Matt
Yeah but see she is SPONSORED BY THEM so do you really think she would say there is anything else better. I would get a review by someone who uses them and will give a fair opinion. Haven't heard anything about these.
And good post cause I am looking for the same thing good tires for the price.
I have really been looking at MXs. I am using 245/40/17 Kuhmo SPTs right now they are nice no issues just the car and me getting better are out performing the 320 threadware tires so I need at least a 200ish threadware.
Matt
| grippgoat | 08-03-2006 11:02 PM |
[QUOTE=RUrunning]any more info on the aspect ratios and gearing for a track sti would be appreciated, as i'm only speculating here.[/QUOTE]
Finally went back and read the thread. :P
Anyway.... My feeling on STI gearing and tire size is that the STI has a mountain of torque and really short gears, so it really wouldn't hurt to have taller wheels and tires. Also, I'd think taller wheels and tires would give you much more heat capacity, further reducing heating issues.
However, it'd also be heavier with more rotational inertia, so I dunno. :confused:
I'm going taller so I can fill my wheel wells more with less of a drop. Bling is always a factor, no matter how small. :cool:
-Mike
Finally went back and read the thread. :P
Anyway.... My feeling on STI gearing and tire size is that the STI has a mountain of torque and really short gears, so it really wouldn't hurt to have taller wheels and tires. Also, I'd think taller wheels and tires would give you much more heat capacity, further reducing heating issues.
However, it'd also be heavier with more rotational inertia, so I dunno. :confused:
I'm going taller so I can fill my wheel wells more with less of a drop. Bling is always a factor, no matter how small. :cool:
-Mike
| REX8 | 08-04-2006 09:03 PM |
[url]http://socalpcguy.com/images/TireTest.pdf[/url]
Just so you can rest easy with your choice of the MX's over the 615's for heat... ;)
Just so you can rest easy with your choice of the MX's over the 615's for heat... ;)
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