| Mike Anson | 05-12-2003 06:32 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jprowland [/i]
[B]I agree, we need more worker education. In Britain, marshals are required to attend a multi-day workshop in order to receive certification. As far behind as we might be, I think the US is starting to catch up; for instance, Team O'Neil will host its first 4 hour worker school in June. I hope this incident will kick-start more similar schools.
At the very least, organizers should take on the burden of educating their own workers and assume that they don't know what they're doing, giving them maybe a quick 1-to-2-hour seminar before they leave. Not just giving details on the schedule, but how to actually do the job at hand.
This really ought to be the Regional Safety Steward's job, but perhaps the SCCA should appoint a new Worker Steward for each division that will take up this role.
A good start for aspiring workers is to read this Rally Worker's Primer (maybe all organizers should supply a similar copy to their volunteers in advance of the event):
[url]http://www.cricketlady.com/primer/rallyworkers/primer.html[/url]
[/B][/QUOTE]
The Rally Cabal sponsored a Rally Worker training school in Chicago this past March. We put the word out everywhere we could think of, including handing out flyers at the Chicago Auto Show.
It was a full 8 hours and covered controls, marshalling, safety, and the new Tag Heuer timing systems. It was taught by Bruce & Beryl-Ann, who came down from Minneapolis.
16 people showed up.
[B]I agree, we need more worker education. In Britain, marshals are required to attend a multi-day workshop in order to receive certification. As far behind as we might be, I think the US is starting to catch up; for instance, Team O'Neil will host its first 4 hour worker school in June. I hope this incident will kick-start more similar schools.
At the very least, organizers should take on the burden of educating their own workers and assume that they don't know what they're doing, giving them maybe a quick 1-to-2-hour seminar before they leave. Not just giving details on the schedule, but how to actually do the job at hand.
This really ought to be the Regional Safety Steward's job, but perhaps the SCCA should appoint a new Worker Steward for each division that will take up this role.
A good start for aspiring workers is to read this Rally Worker's Primer (maybe all organizers should supply a similar copy to their volunteers in advance of the event):
[url]http://www.cricketlady.com/primer/rallyworkers/primer.html[/url]
[/B][/QUOTE]
The Rally Cabal sponsored a Rally Worker training school in Chicago this past March. We put the word out everywhere we could think of, including handing out flyers at the Chicago Auto Show.
It was a full 8 hours and covered controls, marshalling, safety, and the new Tag Heuer timing systems. It was taught by Bruce & Beryl-Ann, who came down from Minneapolis.
16 people showed up.
| johnfelstead | 05-12-2003 06:40 PM |
A very sad event. :(
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RallyDriver [/i]
[B]Unwritten rule in Europe closes any stages on which fatal accidents took place during rally, due to respect for the victims. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry but that's not true at all. There have unfortunately been a few fatal acidents in British Rallies, the stages have never been closed due to this.
Acidents on rallies will always happen, the best you can do is make all provisions to try and stop them and have rescue crews there should something happen. The nature of the sport means they will happen again though and everyone should take responsibility for their actions and try and minimise the likelyhood as much as posible.
You have to reach a balance of enabling people to see the cars in action yet mazimising safety, that balance is a dificult one to achieve and unfortunately in these times of lawyers and nervous insurance companies the emphasis is more and more away from personal responsability. The risks involved should be clearly signed, as with every stage on a british rally, motorsport is dangerous and that danger is real, no matter what you do, you are still open to being hurt, even with spectator pens (which i hate)
On the Rally GB in 2001 the spectators Carlos hit were marshalls stood in a stupid spot. The outcome of this was to instigate spectator pens (and charged extortionate prices for tickets to keep numbers down) which ruined the event in 2002 IMHO, i wont be back for 2003, instead i will go to other WRC rallies where you are still responsible for your own actions. They also brought in a marshall training/licencing programme to stop some 12 year old kid putting a tabard on and then magically being all wise about the sport, that was a good move.
If you want a 100% safe sport, dont go and watch a rally or any form of motorsport.
What you dont need with this tragic event is a knee jerk reaction from the SCCA, i hope sense prevails and they analize and then think about this properly.
Best wishes to all those involved.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RallyDriver [/i]
[B]Unwritten rule in Europe closes any stages on which fatal accidents took place during rally, due to respect for the victims. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry but that's not true at all. There have unfortunately been a few fatal acidents in British Rallies, the stages have never been closed due to this.
Acidents on rallies will always happen, the best you can do is make all provisions to try and stop them and have rescue crews there should something happen. The nature of the sport means they will happen again though and everyone should take responsibility for their actions and try and minimise the likelyhood as much as posible.
You have to reach a balance of enabling people to see the cars in action yet mazimising safety, that balance is a dificult one to achieve and unfortunately in these times of lawyers and nervous insurance companies the emphasis is more and more away from personal responsability. The risks involved should be clearly signed, as with every stage on a british rally, motorsport is dangerous and that danger is real, no matter what you do, you are still open to being hurt, even with spectator pens (which i hate)
On the Rally GB in 2001 the spectators Carlos hit were marshalls stood in a stupid spot. The outcome of this was to instigate spectator pens (and charged extortionate prices for tickets to keep numbers down) which ruined the event in 2002 IMHO, i wont be back for 2003, instead i will go to other WRC rallies where you are still responsible for your own actions. They also brought in a marshall training/licencing programme to stop some 12 year old kid putting a tabard on and then magically being all wise about the sport, that was a good move.
If you want a 100% safe sport, dont go and watch a rally or any form of motorsport.
What you dont need with this tragic event is a knee jerk reaction from the SCCA, i hope sense prevails and they analize and then think about this properly.
Best wishes to all those involved.
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-12-2003 08:38 PM |
[quote]What you dont need with this tragic event is a knee jerk reaction from the SCCA,[/quote]
uh oh
uh oh
| RallyMan555 | 05-12-2003 10:23 PM |
Funeral arrangements for Martin Reidy and Peter Smith
are posted on the Sawmill website.
[URL=http://www.rallyright.com/sawmill/martinreidy.html]Martin Reidy[/URL]
[URL=http://www.rallyright.com/sawmill/petersmith.html]Peter Smith[/URL]
are posted on the Sawmill website.
[URL=http://www.rallyright.com/sawmill/martinreidy.html]Martin Reidy[/URL]
[URL=http://www.rallyright.com/sawmill/petersmith.html]Peter Smith[/URL]
| akuhner | 05-12-2003 10:36 PM |
Does anyone know if there is a fund for the families or anything? I wouldn't be surprised if the Irish Motor Sports Club was organizing something, and it would be nice if we contributed too...
Alex
:(
Alex
:(
| Pinochle | 05-13-2003 09:09 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Car #187 [/i]
[B]Does anyone know if there is a fund for the families or anything? I wouldn't be surprised if the Irish Motor Sports Club was organizing something, and it would be nice if we contributed too...
Alex
:( [/B][/QUOTE]
Ditto.
[B]Does anyone know if there is a fund for the families or anything? I wouldn't be surprised if the Irish Motor Sports Club was organizing something, and it would be nice if we contributed too...
Alex
:( [/B][/QUOTE]
Ditto.
| akuhner | 05-13-2003 09:47 AM |
I can't find the Irish Motorsports Club web page anymore, I wanted to contact them to see if there is a memorial fund. Nobody knows anything? Maybe if I call the church they will know...
Alex
Alex
| Jon Bogert | 05-13-2003 10:55 AM |
A memorial fund is being planned. Details will be posted on the Sawmill website at [url]www.rallyright.com[/url] as soon as we receive the information.
| 10th Warrior | 05-13-2003 11:18 AM |
speaking of knee jerk reactions, there are plenty that have been posted here.
there [i]are[/i] rally worker schools. We had one a couple weeks prior to 100 Acre Wood this year. We also had a CFR school for the local med units we were going to use.
when i've marshalled or spectated, people have always used their brains and listened to the marshall's instructions. in fact, the only person who has ever given me a hard time was a "profesional" photographer who felt the "certain death zone" of a spectator point we had roped off was a good place to be. he left, though he gave me an earfull :rolleyes:
regarding this unfortunate inccident at Sawmill, yes, spectators have been killed in US rally before, its just been several days. not to mention IIRC both the victims were licensed rally drivers and from what i have heard they were in what anyone would consider a very safe place and they had taken several precautions. this was a freak accident. it is very unfortunate and certainly my heart goes out to the victims and their families. i'm upset too but don't jump the gun and make abunch of unfounded assumptions.
there [i]are[/i] rally worker schools. We had one a couple weeks prior to 100 Acre Wood this year. We also had a CFR school for the local med units we were going to use.
when i've marshalled or spectated, people have always used their brains and listened to the marshall's instructions. in fact, the only person who has ever given me a hard time was a "profesional" photographer who felt the "certain death zone" of a spectator point we had roped off was a good place to be. he left, though he gave me an earfull :rolleyes:
regarding this unfortunate inccident at Sawmill, yes, spectators have been killed in US rally before, its just been several days. not to mention IIRC both the victims were licensed rally drivers and from what i have heard they were in what anyone would consider a very safe place and they had taken several precautions. this was a freak accident. it is very unfortunate and certainly my heart goes out to the victims and their families. i'm upset too but don't jump the gun and make abunch of unfounded assumptions.
| jprowland | 05-13-2003 02:40 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Car #187 [/i]
[B]I can't find the Irish Motorsports Club web page anymore[/B][/QUOTE]
Irish Motor Club (not "motorsports")
[url]http://www.irishmotorclub.org/[/url]
No mention of the accident yet, but then, it doesn't look like it's even been updated in several months.
[B]I can't find the Irish Motorsports Club web page anymore[/B][/QUOTE]
Irish Motor Club (not "motorsports")
[url]http://www.irishmotorclub.org/[/url]
No mention of the accident yet, but then, it doesn't look like it's even been updated in several months.
| akuhner | 05-13-2003 11:14 PM |
seems they updated it to a .com:
[url]http://www.irishmotorclub.com/[/url]
but there's nothing there either.
Thanks, Jon, keep us updated.
Alex
[url]http://www.irishmotorclub.com/[/url]
but there's nothing there either.
Thanks, Jon, keep us updated.
Alex
| tt_ttf | 05-14-2003 06:27 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Glenn Wallace [/i]
[B]And specialstage forums are offline for "maintenance". I hope that isn't the SCCA cone of silence descending.
(edit) confirmation on rally-l that they were hit by a competitor vehicle on a hot stage. [/B][/QUOTE]
The fact that thread is still dead is a concern
You can't kill club rally but then not give people the information on the reasons
[B]And specialstage forums are offline for "maintenance". I hope that isn't the SCCA cone of silence descending.
(edit) confirmation on rally-l that they were hit by a competitor vehicle on a hot stage. [/B][/QUOTE]
The fact that thread is still dead is a concern
You can't kill club rally but then not give people the information on the reasons
| jprowland | 05-14-2003 09:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tt_ttf [/i]
[B]
The fact that thread is still dead is a concern
You can't kill club rally but then not give people the information on the reasons [/B][/QUOTE]
What are you talking about? They killed that thread and took down the forum for a while; that particular thread won't be back, but they didn't stop any more threads.
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=1345&forum=DCForumID2&viewmode=all[/url]
[B]
The fact that thread is still dead is a concern
You can't kill club rally but then not give people the information on the reasons [/B][/QUOTE]
What are you talking about? They killed that thread and took down the forum for a while; that particular thread won't be back, but they didn't stop any more threads.
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=1345&forum=DCForumID2&viewmode=all[/url]
| tt_ttf | 05-15-2003 11:56 AM |
The point still remains - that a couple of the threads that were on special stage [b]PRIOR[/b] to their dropping the forums for 14 hours [b]REMAIN[/b] gone
Why?
Why?
| Apisatrox | 05-15-2003 06:53 PM |
Maybe they are aliens attempting to slowly take over every forum we have to express ourselves... or..
<sigh> give me a break.
why does everything have to have a hidden meaning, or some big conspiracy?
How about this one for you:
The mods delete the posts about sawmill because they knew it could cause legal / moral / ethical problems.
The mods soon realized they wouldn't be able to keep everything under control until the appropirate time, so they took down the message boards.
The message boards came back up - but the posts they deleted - as an attempt to keep the boards up, were gone.
As for me, i think they are all aliens.
<sigh> give me a break.
why does everything have to have a hidden meaning, or some big conspiracy?
How about this one for you:
The mods delete the posts about sawmill because they knew it could cause legal / moral / ethical problems.
The mods soon realized they wouldn't be able to keep everything under control until the appropirate time, so they took down the message boards.
The message boards came back up - but the posts they deleted - as an attempt to keep the boards up, were gone.
As for me, i think they are all aliens.
| RallyDriver | 05-15-2003 09:55 PM |
S.S. Sawmill forum had been stopped due to possiblity of public opinions from this year's drivers, co-drivers and workers, which could have been about the route book for example, English Run stage, etc; therefore would have bad influence and legal view of the circumstances of accident and the level of the rally organization.
R.
R.
| Jens | 05-16-2003 12:33 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RallyDriver [/i]
[B]S.S. Sawmill forum had been stopped due to possiblity of public opinions from this year's drivers, co-drivers and workers, which could have been about the route book for example, English Run stage, etc; therefore would have bad influence and legal view of the circumstances of accident and the level of the rally organization.
R. [/B][/QUOTE]
The Sawmill rally organization is excellent, and has a very good safety record.
Did you run the stage? What was your experience?
My experiences have all been good at Sawmill.
Jens Larsen
Flying Kiwi Racing
Formerly ProRally car #112
[B]S.S. Sawmill forum had been stopped due to possiblity of public opinions from this year's drivers, co-drivers and workers, which could have been about the route book for example, English Run stage, etc; therefore would have bad influence and legal view of the circumstances of accident and the level of the rally organization.
R. [/B][/QUOTE]
The Sawmill rally organization is excellent, and has a very good safety record.
Did you run the stage? What was your experience?
My experiences have all been good at Sawmill.
Jens Larsen
Flying Kiwi Racing
Formerly ProRally car #112
| jprowland | 05-16-2003 12:48 PM |
Having run SS2 twice and SS3 once at Sawmill (SS3 is SS2 in reverse), I can say that the route book, even though it only has about 4 or 5 instructions in over 3.5 miles, is adequate for the stage. Watch my video, you'll see that it is long, straight, and fast. Any turn at the end of a straight is well-marked. The turns that aren't marked are the ones that follow other turns, once the car has been slowed down, which I would argue are unnecessary at a beginner's rally.
[url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland/.Movies/sawmill03_ss2.mov[/url] (19MB)
And this is most definately a rally oriented to beginners...THink about it. 21 new licenses were issued at Sawmill, including 8 SCCA memberships! A more detailed route book would only have confused the co-drivers.
Last year at Sawmill was my first rally. I got lost on the first stage. Thankfully, the next instruction was a dangerous square left hidden behind a fast right turn at the end of a long straight. If I had been given too many instructions, I might not have realized where I was in time to tell the driver and get him to brake in time (as it was, we barely made it).
[url]http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland/.Movies/sawmill03_ss2.mov[/url] (19MB)
And this is most definately a rally oriented to beginners...THink about it. 21 new licenses were issued at Sawmill, including 8 SCCA memberships! A more detailed route book would only have confused the co-drivers.
Last year at Sawmill was my first rally. I got lost on the first stage. Thankfully, the next instruction was a dangerous square left hidden behind a fast right turn at the end of a long straight. If I had been given too many instructions, I might not have realized where I was in time to tell the driver and get him to brake in time (as it was, we barely made it).
| daphne | 05-16-2003 03:57 PM |
RallyDriver (Rafal, right?) - I don't know where you are getting your information, but you are incorrect. The suspension has to do with risk management/insurance and a mandated cooling off period that is fairly normal when something like this happens.
I would think that someone in your position would know better than to post something like this. Furthermore, you of all people should have first hand knowledge of how the SCCA and risk management handles these incidents.
I would think that someone in your position would know better than to post something like this. Furthermore, you of all people should have first hand knowledge of how the SCCA and risk management handles these incidents.
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