| cfvwtuner | 11-15-2005 09:03 AM |
Update/backdate rule, what can you actually do?
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I picked up a MY95 L coupe AWD 5MT as my next autocross/Track car.
My plan is to run in STS.
Following the update/backdate rule, can I change the transmission and rear end to 2.5RS components? The better gearing would be nice, as would the rear LSD.
Next, is the engine "updatable" to the 2.5 motor? It was available in an impreza coupe, just a newer year. Can I mix the new engine with the old wiring harness and still be legal, or am I supposed to swap everything?
I assume brakes are updatable to rear disks. Can I go as far as WRX fronts, I'd like H6 rears, but being Legacy, I guess those are out.
Thanks for any input!
My plan is to run in STS.
Following the update/backdate rule, can I change the transmission and rear end to 2.5RS components? The better gearing would be nice, as would the rear LSD.
Next, is the engine "updatable" to the 2.5 motor? It was available in an impreza coupe, just a newer year. Can I mix the new engine with the old wiring harness and still be legal, or am I supposed to swap everything?
I assume brakes are updatable to rear disks. Can I go as far as WRX fronts, I'd like H6 rears, but being Legacy, I guess those are out.
Thanks for any input!
| KC | 11-15-2005 09:05 AM |
I hope you didn't get the car specifically because of update/backdate in STS... because....there is no Update/Backdate in STS.
You can only do the allowed mods spelled out in the rule book for the class.
Brakes cannot even be converted to discs in the rear or larger in the front in STS... however it would be legal in STX to convert brakes because that class allws one to upgrade brakes whereas STS is like stock rules... with the addition of different lines. (Pads & lines for STS).
You cannot drop in the larger 2.5RS engine either or it's SM for you. (Regular Impreza is FSP and 2.5 RS is DSP.. so they're not even on the same line so you can't even swap any parts in SP at all, unless they're parts already allowed in the rules to be modified/replaced)
--kC
You can only do the allowed mods spelled out in the rule book for the class.
Brakes cannot even be converted to discs in the rear or larger in the front in STS... however it would be legal in STX to convert brakes because that class allws one to upgrade brakes whereas STS is like stock rules... with the addition of different lines. (Pads & lines for STS).
You cannot drop in the larger 2.5RS engine either or it's SM for you. (Regular Impreza is FSP and 2.5 RS is DSP.. so they're not even on the same line so you can't even swap any parts in SP at all, unless they're parts already allowed in the rules to be modified/replaced)
--kC
| cfvwtuner | 11-15-2005 09:17 AM |
Oh well.
I didnt get the car for STS, I wanted another project, and a $500 L that needs a transmission fit the bill.
I'll do the swap anyway. I run with CART, and I'm sure it wont be a problem there.
The trans and rear end are going to be done shortly, along with that will be rear sway bar and rear disk brakes.
The motor swap is a long way off I think.
Thanks KC!
I didnt get the car for STS, I wanted another project, and a $500 L that needs a transmission fit the bill.
I'll do the swap anyway. I run with CART, and I'm sure it wont be a problem there.
The trans and rear end are going to be done shortly, along with that will be rear sway bar and rear disk brakes.
The motor swap is a long way off I think.
Thanks KC!
| omahasubaru | 12-15-2005 03:13 PM |
Think FSP.
There are a few earlier version of the Impreza that came with 4 wheel disk brakes. Something you would want.
Another great thing is that in '96, the Impreza L started to have dual port heads (I.E.) could run any of the popular EJ25 headers as it was dual port. Heck my friend has his EJ22 sitting in his garage from his '96 that is a dual port version as he swapped it out for an EJ22T Legacy engine.
I have been toying with building an FSP Impreza for Pro Solo the last couple years, but just can't justify it at this time. Engine work would be the biggest expense as the rest is pretty straight forward.
Good recipe there, find a 4 wheel disk L, find a dual port EJ22 and mix and match. Lighten it up and have some fun. With the current FSP competitors on paper it looks like it could be competitive in Pro and maybe in solo. But no one has every really prepped an FSP Impreza that I know of.
If I can, perhaps someday I'll be able to give it a try. I've made a list of everything I'd like to do and where to source most of it.
Wouldn't be upset if someone beat me to it... especially if it serves to be a lost cause. I do feel the L in FSP has a better chance than an RS in DSP though.
Jon
There are a few earlier version of the Impreza that came with 4 wheel disk brakes. Something you would want.
Another great thing is that in '96, the Impreza L started to have dual port heads (I.E.) could run any of the popular EJ25 headers as it was dual port. Heck my friend has his EJ22 sitting in his garage from his '96 that is a dual port version as he swapped it out for an EJ22T Legacy engine.
I have been toying with building an FSP Impreza for Pro Solo the last couple years, but just can't justify it at this time. Engine work would be the biggest expense as the rest is pretty straight forward.
Good recipe there, find a 4 wheel disk L, find a dual port EJ22 and mix and match. Lighten it up and have some fun. With the current FSP competitors on paper it looks like it could be competitive in Pro and maybe in solo. But no one has every really prepped an FSP Impreza that I know of.
If I can, perhaps someday I'll be able to give it a try. I've made a list of everything I'd like to do and where to source most of it.
Wouldn't be upset if someone beat me to it... especially if it serves to be a lost cause. I do feel the L in FSP has a better chance than an RS in DSP though.
Jon
| Calamity Jesus | 12-15-2005 03:38 PM |
[QUOTE=KC](Regular Impreza is FSP and 2.5 RS is DSP.. so they're not even on the same line so you can't even swap any parts in SP at all, unless they're parts already allowed in the rules to be modified/replaced)
--kC[/QUOTE]That's the gist of Update/Backdate for Street Prepared. When looking in the rule book, cars are listed under classes.. and different trims of the same model are often bunched together on the same line. It allows more cars to be competative.
For instance, when I was running my 1.9L 88hp Ford Escort Station Wagon in FSP, I would have been allowed to drop in the 1.8L 127hp Escort GT engine and upgrade to the ZX2's stronger rear subframe and rear discs. This is only because all Escorts (1991+) are on the same line in the rule book.
--kC[/QUOTE]That's the gist of Update/Backdate for Street Prepared. When looking in the rule book, cars are listed under classes.. and different trims of the same model are often bunched together on the same line. It allows more cars to be competative.
For instance, when I was running my 1.9L 88hp Ford Escort Station Wagon in FSP, I would have been allowed to drop in the 1.8L 127hp Escort GT engine and upgrade to the ZX2's stronger rear subframe and rear discs. This is only because all Escorts (1991+) are on the same line in the rule book.
| 10th Warrior | 12-15-2005 03:42 PM |
[quote] do feel the L in FSP has a better chance than an RS in DSP though.[/quote]
Today's lesson: the understatement ;)
Today's lesson: the understatement ;)
| cfvwtuner | 12-15-2005 04:35 PM |
Well, I dont know where I should be put now. I have the RS transmission and rear end installed. Still a NON LSD, but 4.11 gears instead of 3.90's
The rear disks are installed, but those were available on 94's with ABS. I have no ABS.
The drivers seat is now a stock 03 WRX seat.
My car has the dual port exhaust, I belive, so I guess I got lucky there.
Did some 1.8's only have a single exhaust pipe comming out the bottom of the heads, ouch for flow.
Our local club isnt as strict as the SCCA classification system, so I still think I'll run in STS. Tires are cheaper.
The rear disks are installed, but those were available on 94's with ABS. I have no ABS.
The drivers seat is now a stock 03 WRX seat.
My car has the dual port exhaust, I belive, so I guess I got lucky there.
Did some 1.8's only have a single exhaust pipe comming out the bottom of the heads, ouch for flow.
Our local club isnt as strict as the SCCA classification system, so I still think I'll run in STS. Tires are cheaper.
| adhowe70 | 12-15-2005 09:01 PM |
Jon,
Think lighter than a 4 wheel disc L model. Think Brighton. You can UD / BD for the rear discs anyway.
Andy H.
Think lighter than a 4 wheel disc L model. Think Brighton. You can UD / BD for the rear discs anyway.
Andy H.
| Storm | 12-16-2005 01:36 AM |
My 96 Brighton will see how this works out locally after the EJ22 goes in. I still need to take the plunge on one of those cool lookin OBX LSD's though....
I have to try and figure out what wheel/tire combo to run.....235/13, 225/15 215/16? Nobody makes cheap 13x8s with a 5x100mm pattern that I know of.....Other than steelies from Circle or something....and I want to test different setups on the super cheap before fully committing to anything.
Jay Storm
[QUOTE=omahasubaru]Think FSP.
There are a few earlier version of the Impreza that came with 4 wheel disk brakes. Something you would want.
Another great thing is that in '96, the Impreza L started to have dual port heads (I.E.) could run any of the popular EJ25 headers as it was dual port. Heck my friend has his EJ22 sitting in his garage from his '96 that is a dual port version as he swapped it out for an EJ22T Legacy engine.
I have been toying with building an FSP Impreza for Pro Solo the last couple years, but just can't justify it at this time. Engine work would be the biggest expense as the rest is pretty straight forward.
Good recipe there, find a 4 wheel disk L, find a dual port EJ22 and mix and match. Lighten it up and have some fun. With the current FSP competitors on paper it looks like it could be competitive in Pro and maybe in solo. But no one has every really prepped an FSP Impreza that I know of.
If I can, perhaps someday I'll be able to give it a try. I've made a list of everything I'd like to do and where to source most of it.
Wouldn't be upset if someone beat me to it... especially if it serves to be a lost cause. I do feel the L in FSP has a better chance than an RS in DSP though.
Jon[/QUOTE]
I have to try and figure out what wheel/tire combo to run.....235/13, 225/15 215/16? Nobody makes cheap 13x8s with a 5x100mm pattern that I know of.....Other than steelies from Circle or something....and I want to test different setups on the super cheap before fully committing to anything.
Jay Storm
[QUOTE=omahasubaru]Think FSP.
There are a few earlier version of the Impreza that came with 4 wheel disk brakes. Something you would want.
Another great thing is that in '96, the Impreza L started to have dual port heads (I.E.) could run any of the popular EJ25 headers as it was dual port. Heck my friend has his EJ22 sitting in his garage from his '96 that is a dual port version as he swapped it out for an EJ22T Legacy engine.
I have been toying with building an FSP Impreza for Pro Solo the last couple years, but just can't justify it at this time. Engine work would be the biggest expense as the rest is pretty straight forward.
Good recipe there, find a 4 wheel disk L, find a dual port EJ22 and mix and match. Lighten it up and have some fun. With the current FSP competitors on paper it looks like it could be competitive in Pro and maybe in solo. But no one has every really prepped an FSP Impreza that I know of.
If I can, perhaps someday I'll be able to give it a try. I've made a list of everything I'd like to do and where to source most of it.
Wouldn't be upset if someone beat me to it... especially if it serves to be a lost cause. I do feel the L in FSP has a better chance than an RS in DSP though.
Jon[/QUOTE]
| jcroy66 | 12-16-2005 06:52 AM |
[QUOTE=omahasubaru] I have been toying with building an FSP Impreza for Pro Solo the last couple years[/QUOTE]The problem I see with that is that I can't remember any East Coast Pro (haven't been to West Coast Pros to know) in the last 2 years that has actually had enough FSP competitors to make a class. So when FSP bumps into DSP, I'm thinking your FSP Impreza is pretty well screwed.
| omahasubaru | 12-16-2005 09:12 AM |
[QUOTE=adhowe70]Jon,
Think lighter than a 4 wheel disc L model. Think Brighton. You can UD / BD for the rear discs anyway.
Andy H.[/QUOTE]
I don't *think* you can swap out full rear assemblies in UP/BD... but I may be wrong.
I looked into it at one time, but it was more of finding a FWD model and converting it to AWD... I'll have to review the rules and post back.
Storm,
Very good to know that you're considering an FSP L. I have a local line on a dual port EJ22 if you're looking from one. It's from a '96 L.
Please do report back on the OBX LSD. I really am curious how it performs as that is something I would really like to add to my car.
Think lighter than a 4 wheel disc L model. Think Brighton. You can UD / BD for the rear discs anyway.
Andy H.[/QUOTE]
I don't *think* you can swap out full rear assemblies in UP/BD... but I may be wrong.
I looked into it at one time, but it was more of finding a FWD model and converting it to AWD... I'll have to review the rules and post back.
Storm,
Very good to know that you're considering an FSP L. I have a local line on a dual port EJ22 if you're looking from one. It's from a '96 L.
Please do report back on the OBX LSD. I really am curious how it performs as that is something I would really like to add to my car.
| omahasubaru | 12-16-2005 09:23 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]The problem I see with that is that I can't remember any East Coast Pro (haven't been to West Coast Pros to know) in the last 2 years that has actually had enough FSP competitors to make a class. So when FSP bumps into DSP, I'm thinking your FSP Impreza is pretty well screwed.[/QUOTE]
FSP competitors are increasing. It has died some, but I forsee more coming. Pro will be tough, but solo shouldn't be an issue. I think more people will strat looking to FSP since it is lacking in numbers. Hoping it will help their chances at a trophy or win.
Just my $0.02 I don't even have a car, so I won't be doing this anytime soon. Just making the switch from co-driving in STS this year, to co-driving in STX next year.
FSP competitors are increasing. It has died some, but I forsee more coming. Pro will be tough, but solo shouldn't be an issue. I think more people will strat looking to FSP since it is lacking in numbers. Hoping it will help their chances at a trophy or win.
Just my $0.02 I don't even have a car, so I won't be doing this anytime soon. Just making the switch from co-driving in STS this year, to co-driving in STX next year.
| joltdudeuc | 12-16-2005 10:36 AM |
[QUOTE=Storm]My 96 Brighton will see how this works out locally after the EJ22 goes in. I still need to take the plunge on one of those cool lookin OBX LSD's though....
I have to try and figure out what wheel/tire combo to run.....235/13, 225/15 215/16? Nobody makes cheap 13x8s with a 5x100mm pattern that I know of.....Other than steelies from Circle or something....and I want to test different setups on the super cheap before fully committing to anything.
Jay Storm[/QUOTE]
You have PM
I have to try and figure out what wheel/tire combo to run.....235/13, 225/15 215/16? Nobody makes cheap 13x8s with a 5x100mm pattern that I know of.....Other than steelies from Circle or something....and I want to test different setups on the super cheap before fully committing to anything.
Jay Storm[/QUOTE]
You have PM
| jcroy66 | 12-16-2005 11:44 AM |
[QUOTE=omahasubaru] Just making the switch from co-driving in STS this year, to co-driving in STX next year.[/QUOTE]
Good to hear. I think we may need all the folks we can get, considering how many people are leaving. You doing Pros too, or just Solo2?
Good to hear. I think we may need all the folks we can get, considering how many people are leaving. You doing Pros too, or just Solo2?
| omahasubaru | 12-16-2005 12:01 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]Good to hear. I think we may need all the folks we can get, considering how many people are leaving. You doing Pros too, or just Solo2?[/QUOTE]
Just Solo. Will probablly only make one or two national tours. Planning on Arkansas currently.
Just Solo. Will probablly only make one or two national tours. Planning on Arkansas currently.
| omahasubaru | 12-16-2005 12:01 PM |
[QUOTE=joltdudeuc]You have PM[/QUOTE]
If you PMed him about a source for 13x8" wheels for subaru's that will clear the stock L brakes, do tell!
If you PMed him about a source for 13x8" wheels for subaru's that will clear the stock L brakes, do tell!
| dmitrik4 | 12-16-2005 01:32 PM |
[QUOTE=omahasubaru]FSP competitors are increasing. It has died some, but I forsee more coming. Pro will be tough, but solo shouldn't be an issue. I think more people will strat looking to FSP since it is lacking in numbers. Hoping it will help their chances at a trophy or win.
[/QUOTE]
plus it's such a cool class; i think it's still very undeveloped, and one of the few classes where any number of cars can win. to me, that's part of the draw. i only wish my toyota could play there. :(
"For Slow People"... :lol:
[/QUOTE]
plus it's such a cool class; i think it's still very undeveloped, and one of the few classes where any number of cars can win. to me, that's part of the draw. i only wish my toyota could play there. :(
"For Slow People"... :lol:
| ratt_finkel | 12-16-2005 01:46 PM |
[QUOTE=dmitrik4]plus it's such a cool class; i think it's still very undeveloped, and one of the few classes where any number of cars can win. to me, that's part of the draw. i only wish my toyota could play there. :(
"For Slow People"... :lol:[/QUOTE]
I can tell you for certain that the VW guys would disagree. Now, it may be underdeveloped in the sense that not a very wide variety of cars compete.
"For Slow People"... :lol:[/QUOTE]
I can tell you for certain that the VW guys would disagree. Now, it may be underdeveloped in the sense that not a very wide variety of cars compete.
| dmitrik4 | 12-16-2005 03:36 PM |
that's what i meant; "undeveloped" as a class, in the sense that not all possibly competitive cars have been tried, not "undeveloped" as far as the cars currently competing, esp the VWs.
compare to CSP (well, pre-boost rule CSP); not a wide variety of top cars to choose from.
edit: i suppose a lot of the SP classes are now up in the air, though. should be interesting.
compare to CSP (well, pre-boost rule CSP); not a wide variety of top cars to choose from.
edit: i suppose a lot of the SP classes are now up in the air, though. should be interesting.
| Draken | 12-16-2005 04:00 PM |
We use to have a decent little FSP contigent on the west coast at Pros. Taka in the GTS, Abe in the Scirroco, a Toyota Pickup, and a few others. It got kinda small though when the GTS got dumped into DSP. Have not really followed the class size the last two years.
Chris H.
Chris H.
| Storm | 12-16-2005 04:12 PM |
I want to see what happens in FSP. The RS in DSP has such a huge uphill battle against the current topdogs. The index is getting dragged ever faster and I'm about out of ideas to keep up. This gets me thinking that FSP might be a better match for the lower power Imprezas. I wouldn't expect the RS to go to FSP, and I wouldn't want it to. But for the current cars in FSP, I'm thinking a superlight car with the right UD/BD build could be pretty competitive.
I would never consider building a project or NOT building a project based on whether the class will get bumped at a Pro anyway (I don't do this for money). Frankly I don't really know why FSP attendance numbers would be brought up at all. It wouldn't matter if it got bumped since I could just switch to the "other" car anyway.
Although the current top cars in FSP have been fairly well established and have decades of development, I believe that this would be a good fit. Budget minded, fun and hopefully competitive!!!
PMs have been answered....thanks.
Jay Storm
I would never consider building a project or NOT building a project based on whether the class will get bumped at a Pro anyway (I don't do this for money). Frankly I don't really know why FSP attendance numbers would be brought up at all. It wouldn't matter if it got bumped since I could just switch to the "other" car anyway.
Although the current top cars in FSP have been fairly well established and have decades of development, I believe that this would be a good fit. Budget minded, fun and hopefully competitive!!!
PMs have been answered....thanks.
Jay Storm
| cfvwtuner | 12-16-2005 04:29 PM |
Good answer. I origionally posed the question in case I ever wanted to run with the big dogs at the SCCA. This came about after my last car, a Neon, on a Neon board discussion. I was told I couldnt run STS because the pressboard cover over the spare tire was gone.
I bought this L because I miss my 99RS as an autocross toy. I'm starting to do track events and wanted something fun there also. The low power doesnt bother me too much, it will keep me out of trouble.
The 2.5 Big Block will come for next season.
I bought this L because I miss my 99RS as an autocross toy. I'm starting to do track events and wanted something fun there also. The low power doesnt bother me too much, it will keep me out of trouble.
The 2.5 Big Block will come for next season.
| jcroy66 | 12-16-2005 05:27 PM |
[QUOTE=Storm]I would never consider building a project or NOT building a project based on whether the class will get bumped at a Pro anyway (I don't do this for money). Frankly I don't really know why FSP attendance numbers would be brought up at all. It wouldn't matter if it got bumped since I could just switch to the "other" car anyway. [/QUOTE]I brought it up because omahasubaru specifically said he was considering building a FSP L [b]for ProSolo[/b]. So while it'll have the AWD launch advantage at a ProSolo, it would probably not be enough to overcome the time differential if FSP bumps due to attendance.
IIRC Alex won DSP at the 2004 Peru Pro by over 3 seconds, and I'm pretty sure he was sandbagging HARD to keep it that close. The FSP guys who bumped into DSP (which helped make DSP a class) just didn't stand a chance.
IIRC Alex won DSP at the 2004 Peru Pro by over 3 seconds, and I'm pretty sure he was sandbagging HARD to keep it that close. The FSP guys who bumped into DSP (which helped make DSP a class) just didn't stand a chance.
| dmitrik4 | 12-16-2005 07:06 PM |
cfvwtuner, was the cover permanently attached? if it's just sitting there like normal tire covers, you could take it out anyway. if people wouldn't let you run (regionally, at least) w/out it, that's a pretty weenie protest, IMO.
[QUOTE=Storm] But for the current cars in FSP, I'm thinking a superlight car with the right UD/BD build could be pretty competitive.
[/QUOTE]
i don't think an impreza (or any AWD car) is going to be considered "superlight" among the ~1700 VWs and such. but it could be significantly more powerful, with more grip.
kugler's car is ~2000lbs and ~120whp, i think, on 225/13 tires (plus, of course, him driving!). that's the FSP benchmark.
i think what limits the usefulness of the subie's AWD in FSP is that you have really light cars on wide, sticky tires, w/ really good diffs. i don't know if the traction advantage is going to be enough. but maybe!
my choice: a 1st gen protege w/ the BP motor....CSP miata power, 2200lbs!
[QUOTE=Storm] But for the current cars in FSP, I'm thinking a superlight car with the right UD/BD build could be pretty competitive.
[/QUOTE]
i don't think an impreza (or any AWD car) is going to be considered "superlight" among the ~1700 VWs and such. but it could be significantly more powerful, with more grip.
kugler's car is ~2000lbs and ~120whp, i think, on 225/13 tires (plus, of course, him driving!). that's the FSP benchmark.
i think what limits the usefulness of the subie's AWD in FSP is that you have really light cars on wide, sticky tires, w/ really good diffs. i don't know if the traction advantage is going to be enough. but maybe!
my choice: a 1st gen protege w/ the BP motor....CSP miata power, 2200lbs!
| cfvwtuner | 12-16-2005 07:35 PM |
It was stated that because the neon had a thumbscrew on the pressboard panel, it was permanently attached.
The exact same panel on a subaru is just sitting there and legal to remove.
HUH?!!?
If that is true, you shouldnt be able to remove spare tires either, they are bolted down.
I ran in STS without the entire trunk carpeting, it got wet and smelled like mold and mildew real bad. If people think the 2 pounds of carpeting is why a 140K mile neon beat them, I'd gladly throw a weight in the rear to match the carpet weight.
I run at a local level, and do so to enjoy myself. KC knows our local group.
Last years battle in FSP was between my wifes Focus, and a Spitfire she called "the little green booger" By seasons end the spitfire driver was calling it the same thing.
I think that alot of the SCCA people take it way too serious.
At tri states we had a SCCA guy throw a huge protest at the drivers meeting because we were going to count pointer cones the same as regular cones. Know what, dont hit the friggin cones! I probbily only hit 2 or 3 all season!
Eh, now it's rambling...
The exact same panel on a subaru is just sitting there and legal to remove.
HUH?!!?
If that is true, you shouldnt be able to remove spare tires either, they are bolted down.
I ran in STS without the entire trunk carpeting, it got wet and smelled like mold and mildew real bad. If people think the 2 pounds of carpeting is why a 140K mile neon beat them, I'd gladly throw a weight in the rear to match the carpet weight.
I run at a local level, and do so to enjoy myself. KC knows our local group.
Last years battle in FSP was between my wifes Focus, and a Spitfire she called "the little green booger" By seasons end the spitfire driver was calling it the same thing.
I think that alot of the SCCA people take it way too serious.
At tri states we had a SCCA guy throw a huge protest at the drivers meeting because we were going to count pointer cones the same as regular cones. Know what, dont hit the friggin cones! I probbily only hit 2 or 3 all season!
Eh, now it's rambling...
| Whiteghost 2.5 | 12-16-2005 07:53 PM |
Storm, I remember you saying something about a rule change in DSP that allowed upgraded calipers but the rotors had to be stock sized. Is that in the new '06 rules?
Thanks
Josh
Thanks
Josh
| Draken | 12-16-2005 09:06 PM |
The spare tire is specifically allowed to be removed, even if it is bolted down. Same with the jack and jack handle.
You are correct on the Neon. It has to have the cover. Subies do not.
You are correct on the Neon. It has to have the cover. Subies do not.
| cfvwtuner | 12-16-2005 09:54 PM |
I know it's technically correct, but it's stupid.
It's the exact same piece, serving the exact same purpose.
The fact that this came about because someone protested at one time is sad.
It's probbily a technicality on how the rule is written, but even that is a poor answer.
Get real anyway, any national level autocross car is not someones street car anymore.
There is more bending and streching of the rules than a simple tire cover.
I belive that the wording should apply to the passanger compartment only. Anything behind the rear seats and in front of the firewall should be excluded.
I also do not understand how a stripped out IT car can be in the same class as a street prepared car. Makes no sense to me.
I choose not to run with the SCCA. I never plan on running with the SCCA. We tried them and the way we were treated will make us never try again.
It's the exact same piece, serving the exact same purpose.
The fact that this came about because someone protested at one time is sad.
It's probbily a technicality on how the rule is written, but even that is a poor answer.
Get real anyway, any national level autocross car is not someones street car anymore.
There is more bending and streching of the rules than a simple tire cover.
I belive that the wording should apply to the passanger compartment only. Anything behind the rear seats and in front of the firewall should be excluded.
I also do not understand how a stripped out IT car can be in the same class as a street prepared car. Makes no sense to me.
I choose not to run with the SCCA. I never plan on running with the SCCA. We tried them and the way we were treated will make us never try again.
| Storm | 12-16-2005 11:00 PM |
[QUOTE=Whiteghost 2.5]Storm, I remember you saying something about a rule change in DSP that allowed upgraded calipers but the rotors had to be stock sized. Is that in the new '06 rules?
Thanks
Josh[/QUOTE]
The SP brake rule changed to the surrent STS rule. Stock sized rotors, of ferrous material. Calipers can be changed though. FWIW...I don't think there is much difference in swept area between the 2 pot and single pot calipers. I have no trouble locking my wheels even with 225-45-15 V710s.
Jay Storm
Thanks
Josh[/QUOTE]
The SP brake rule changed to the surrent STS rule. Stock sized rotors, of ferrous material. Calipers can be changed though. FWIW...I don't think there is much difference in swept area between the 2 pot and single pot calipers. I have no trouble locking my wheels even with 225-45-15 V710s.
Jay Storm
| Whiteghost 2.5 | 12-16-2005 11:46 PM |
yeah I experienced that too with mine.
I just may get new stock calipers to save some money
I just may get new stock calipers to save some money
| dmitrik4 | 12-17-2005 02:52 AM |
[QUOTE=cfvwtuner]
I also do not understand how a stripped out IT car can be in the same class as a street prepared car. Makes no sense to me.
I choose not to run with the SCCA. I never plan on running with the SCCA. We tried them and the way we were treated will make us never try again. [/QUOTE]
i think the IT allowance is to give those folks a place to play in solo2. SP makes the most sense, and IIRC SP gets more performance allowances than IT does, so it evens out.
sorry to hear your region is such weenies...not every region is like that; i know if you asked our STS crowd, that would be fine. honestly. that's not making any difference; just courtesy to ask beforehand.
it's a shame, b/c i've nothing but good things to say about the SCCA people i've dealt with. :(
i'm curious about this "thumbscrew." is it a "permanent factory fastener?" that is, do you have to unbolt that screw to remove the cover to get to the spare?
I also do not understand how a stripped out IT car can be in the same class as a street prepared car. Makes no sense to me.
I choose not to run with the SCCA. I never plan on running with the SCCA. We tried them and the way we were treated will make us never try again. [/QUOTE]
i think the IT allowance is to give those folks a place to play in solo2. SP makes the most sense, and IIRC SP gets more performance allowances than IT does, so it evens out.
sorry to hear your region is such weenies...not every region is like that; i know if you asked our STS crowd, that would be fine. honestly. that's not making any difference; just courtesy to ask beforehand.
it's a shame, b/c i've nothing but good things to say about the SCCA people i've dealt with. :(
i'm curious about this "thumbscrew." is it a "permanent factory fastener?" that is, do you have to unbolt that screw to remove the cover to get to the spare?
| dmitrik4 | 12-17-2005 02:54 AM |
[QUOTE=Storm]I have no trouble locking my wheels even with 225-45-15 V710s.
Jay Storm[/QUOTE]
...and that means your brakes are strong enough. some people have so much trouble understanding that concept..."but better pads will make the car stop shorter!" ugh.
Jay Storm[/QUOTE]
...and that means your brakes are strong enough. some people have so much trouble understanding that concept..."but better pads will make the car stop shorter!" ugh.
| cfvwtuner | 12-17-2005 07:31 AM |
If anyone wants to know my experience with the SCCA, please PM me. It will let you know why I choose not to run with them.
The board in the neon was held down with a big thumbscrew. It was almost exactally the same as how spare tires are held down. The neon used one long screw. The base was secured to the bottom of the trunk floor, the spare went over that, then had a wingnut spun down to keep it tight, then the board went over, then the thumbscrew that held the board down. THe board was the "finished" trunk floor, unlike the subaru that has the mat or carpet over it.
I run with a local club. The rules are a bit more lax. This can be good or bad.
I dont know if you followed the thread, but I am building a 95 L coupe into a 2.5RS copy. My local group will let the car run as a 2.5RS. I know the SCCA wont because the VIN isnt a 2.5RS vin, and will end up throwing into a mod class because of the 1.8-2.5 motor swap.
I dont see how all this isnt update/backdate. They are still all Impreza coupes, just of a different trim level.
It goes on how a bit back in GRM there was a early VW sirocco running a 8V 2.0 from a 93-99 Jetta/Golf. The Rocco never came with a 2.0 8V engine. The rocco is a totally different generation of the car that came with a 2.0 16V engine. Golf and Jetta, although very very close, arnt the same car, and the motor came from one that is 3 generations newer. A 8V rocco is FSP, a 16V is DSP, the swapped car ran FSP.
Again, I know that there has to be rules. But I dont understand how some can get away with some things, but others cant get away with the same.
The board in the neon was held down with a big thumbscrew. It was almost exactally the same as how spare tires are held down. The neon used one long screw. The base was secured to the bottom of the trunk floor, the spare went over that, then had a wingnut spun down to keep it tight, then the board went over, then the thumbscrew that held the board down. THe board was the "finished" trunk floor, unlike the subaru that has the mat or carpet over it.
I run with a local club. The rules are a bit more lax. This can be good or bad.
I dont know if you followed the thread, but I am building a 95 L coupe into a 2.5RS copy. My local group will let the car run as a 2.5RS. I know the SCCA wont because the VIN isnt a 2.5RS vin, and will end up throwing into a mod class because of the 1.8-2.5 motor swap.
I dont see how all this isnt update/backdate. They are still all Impreza coupes, just of a different trim level.
It goes on how a bit back in GRM there was a early VW sirocco running a 8V 2.0 from a 93-99 Jetta/Golf. The Rocco never came with a 2.0 8V engine. The rocco is a totally different generation of the car that came with a 2.0 16V engine. Golf and Jetta, although very very close, arnt the same car, and the motor came from one that is 3 generations newer. A 8V rocco is FSP, a 16V is DSP, the swapped car ran FSP.
Again, I know that there has to be rules. But I dont understand how some can get away with some things, but others cant get away with the same.
| Tirewarmer | 12-17-2005 08:38 AM |
[QUOTE=cfvwtuner]I know it's technically correct, but it's stupid.
Get real anyway, any national level autocross car is not someones street car anymore.[/QUOTE]
My Daily driver came in 10th in G Stock at SCCA Solo2 Nationals this year. It wasn't the only top 10 car that was a daily driver either.
I wouldn't judge the entire SCCA by one region on one day.
And pointer cones don't ever count. You don't see an NFL game on TV where they suddenly decide to score field goals as 10 points.
Joe
Get real anyway, any national level autocross car is not someones street car anymore.[/QUOTE]
My Daily driver came in 10th in G Stock at SCCA Solo2 Nationals this year. It wasn't the only top 10 car that was a daily driver either.
I wouldn't judge the entire SCCA by one region on one day.
And pointer cones don't ever count. You don't see an NFL game on TV where they suddenly decide to score field goals as 10 points.
Joe
| cfvwtuner | 12-17-2005 09:48 AM |
Pointer cones always count in my club. If you dont want the penalty, dont hit the cones. We're not SCCA.
Maybe if your NFL team came to my Fox Football League, field goals would be more than 3pts.
Maybe if your NFL team came to my Fox Football League, field goals would be more than 3pts.
| DrBiggly | 12-17-2005 02:02 PM |
[QUOTE=cfvwtuner]Pointer cones always count in my club. If you dont want the penalty, dont hit the cones. We're not SCCA.
Maybe if your NFL team came to my Fox Football League, field goals would be more than 3pts.[/QUOTE]
So you guys run your own game; that's totally fine. But you can't bash the SCCA for not following the rules you would like it to nor is it reasonable to bash those who choose to follow those rules and play in their league instead of yours.
Nobody here is out to attack your local club for doing things their own way; it's their right. If you guys count pointers then that's the way it goes down in your neck of the woods. :)
-Biggly
Maybe if your NFL team came to my Fox Football League, field goals would be more than 3pts.[/QUOTE]
So you guys run your own game; that's totally fine. But you can't bash the SCCA for not following the rules you would like it to nor is it reasonable to bash those who choose to follow those rules and play in their league instead of yours.
Nobody here is out to attack your local club for doing things their own way; it's their right. If you guys count pointers then that's the way it goes down in your neck of the woods. :)
-Biggly
| AUTOwrXER | 12-17-2005 02:09 PM |
[QUOTE=Storm]The SP brake rule changed to the surrent STS rule. Stock sized rotors, of ferrous material. Calipers can be changed though. FWIW...I don't think there is much difference in swept area between the 2 pot and single pot calipers. I have no trouble locking my wheels even with 225-45-15 V710s.
Jay Storm[/QUOTE]
:huh:
Are you sure about that? I don't see any changes listed to 15.6
Jay Storm[/QUOTE]
:huh:
Are you sure about that? I don't see any changes listed to 15.6
| cfvwtuner | 12-17-2005 02:17 PM |
I'm not bashing the SCCA rules, I'm questioning the reasoning for them. We do use them as a general basis for our club, and for general car classification.
The motor swap I listed above is a perfect example. I also feel my spare tire cover fits as well.
The motor swap I listed above is a perfect example. I also feel my spare tire cover fits as well.
| dmitrik4 | 12-17-2005 02:45 PM |
that's always going to come up, though, no matter what the rules are; people are always going to interpret them differently. what about dropping a WRX motor into an L sedan? they're both impreza sedans. how about an STi motor?
the line always needs to be drawn somewhere; the membership apparently felt that the RS and the L were different enough to warrant separate SP classifications. i have a feeling that if they had to get put together, the L would end up in DSP instead of the other way around.
the line always needs to be drawn somewhere; the membership apparently felt that the RS and the L were different enough to warrant separate SP classifications. i have a feeling that if they had to get put together, the L would end up in DSP instead of the other way around.
| cfvwtuner | 12-17-2005 02:54 PM |
I can understand a turbo vs non turbo motor.
What does the rulebook call non turbo 02-up Impreza's? Where are they classified?
What does the rulebook call non turbo 02-up Impreza's? Where are they classified?
| Draken | 12-17-2005 04:24 PM |
cfvwtuner: In the nicest way possible...quite your bitching.
Seriously.
You want the rules to fit perfectly for your specific project.
Wouldn't we all?
Swapping a 2.5L into your 1.8L isn't allowed in ST or SP rules.
That's what SM was created for.
It seems you are trying to argue that the 1.8 to 2.5 are the same car, blah blah blah, you should be allowed to UD/BD.
If that rule were opened up, think of all the other cars that would hugely benefit?
Base Integra RS with GSR package.
Base Sentra with SE-R.
Base Civic with Si (the reason UD/BD got killed for ST.)
ST classes are supposed to be for cars with fairly standard bolt-on mods.
Not built-up specials.
If SCCA were to allow swapped models like yours, then roughly 95% of the current ST population across the country, would suddenly become another 1 to 2 seconds off the pace of the top drivers, because I gaurantee the top drivers would be driving Frankencivics, or Frankensentra, or whatever.
Sounds like your local club gives you a place to play.
So have fun with that club.
btw, I didn't much like the local NER SCCA either, but it didn't have anything to do with the rules not fitting my specific car.
Oh yeah, lastly, notice how stupid a post looks when you hit "enter" after every period? Try a paragraph once in a while.
Chris H.
Seriously.
You want the rules to fit perfectly for your specific project.
Wouldn't we all?
Swapping a 2.5L into your 1.8L isn't allowed in ST or SP rules.
That's what SM was created for.
It seems you are trying to argue that the 1.8 to 2.5 are the same car, blah blah blah, you should be allowed to UD/BD.
If that rule were opened up, think of all the other cars that would hugely benefit?
Base Integra RS with GSR package.
Base Sentra with SE-R.
Base Civic with Si (the reason UD/BD got killed for ST.)
ST classes are supposed to be for cars with fairly standard bolt-on mods.
Not built-up specials.
If SCCA were to allow swapped models like yours, then roughly 95% of the current ST population across the country, would suddenly become another 1 to 2 seconds off the pace of the top drivers, because I gaurantee the top drivers would be driving Frankencivics, or Frankensentra, or whatever.
Sounds like your local club gives you a place to play.
So have fun with that club.
btw, I didn't much like the local NER SCCA either, but it didn't have anything to do with the rules not fitting my specific car.
Oh yeah, lastly, notice how stupid a post looks when you hit "enter" after every period? Try a paragraph once in a while.
Chris H.
| cfvwtuner | 12-17-2005 04:52 PM |
Wow, you are a pleasant kind of guy. This is the kind of person which keeps me away from SCCA and their events.
I'll give you that a 2.5 wont be legal in STS, fine. Then I should be able to change to a 2.2. It was available in the exact same car.
If I ran DSP then would the motor swap be legal? How can the VW example be legal? A rocco and a Golf were never the same vehicle.
I'm not bitching. I'm looking for reasons why things are legal on some and not on others. My spare tire cover question was never answered either. Also not answered was what class the 02-up Impreza is listed in.
A paragraph is used to seperate different ideas. Different ideas, different paragraphs.
I'll give you that a 2.5 wont be legal in STS, fine. Then I should be able to change to a 2.2. It was available in the exact same car.
If I ran DSP then would the motor swap be legal? How can the VW example be legal? A rocco and a Golf were never the same vehicle.
I'm not bitching. I'm looking for reasons why things are legal on some and not on others. My spare tire cover question was never answered either. Also not answered was what class the 02-up Impreza is listed in.
A paragraph is used to seperate different ideas. Different ideas, different paragraphs.
| jcroy66 | 12-17-2005 04:57 PM |
[QUOTE=cfvwtuner] Get real anyway, any national level autocross car is not someones street car anymore.[/QUOTE]Don't assume. :rolleyes: Tirewarmer has already said his DD was 10th in GS. My DD was 2nd and 4th in STX at the ProFinale and 7th and 11th in STX at the National Championships. I'm pretty sure that Josh's car (2005 STX National Champion and 2005 and 2004 STX ProSolo champion) and Andy's 330i (2nd place STX 2005) are/were both daily drivers. I heard Regan's car was a DD (3rd place STX 2005).
Now, is a National CP car likely to be someone's daily driver? Probably not. But in stock, STX, and STU, I'd say you'll find the National cars being street cars more often than not. Not always daily drivers, but certainly street cars that are street-driven.
Now, is a National CP car likely to be someone's daily driver? Probably not. But in stock, STX, and STU, I'd say you'll find the National cars being street cars more often than not. Not always daily drivers, but certainly street cars that are street-driven.
| Draken | 12-17-2005 05:09 PM |
The highest placing ESP STi in 2004 was my car, and I just managed to trophy. It is daily driven. In fact, I drove from Vermont to Topeka with hoosiers in the back seat. Before that, I ran my '99 2.5RS in ProSolos and at Nationals, and drove to every single event with race tires in the back seat. And next year my STi will be driven to every West Coast NT and Pro I attend.
And as a matter of fact, I am a very pleasant person :)
Good luck with your project. If you see KC at any local events, give him a reach around for me.
Chris H.
And as a matter of fact, I am a very pleasant person :)
Good luck with your project. If you see KC at any local events, give him a reach around for me.
Chris H.
| DrBiggly | 12-17-2005 05:31 PM |
[QUOTE=cfvwtuner]I'm not bashing the SCCA rules, I'm questioning the reasoning for them. We do use them as a general basis for our club, and for general car classification.
The motor swap I listed above is a perfect example. I also feel my spare tire cover fits as well.[/QUOTE]
A lot of the reasoning is done by members with a specific agenda. What isn't based on that is faulty logic dating back to modern day thinking from the 70s (i.e. front sway in stock....some Porsches didn't have them for example.) Once in a while there are a few updates that make things seem almost right again but there are quite a few flaws.
I've just decided to play by the rules for better or for worse. If I don't like them I'll run in another club. Honestly I'm boycotting all National level events in '06 at this point due to the fact that the "shock rule" isn't going to be clarified and they'll just let it stand and see what happens. No thanks, I'm running locally next year and saving money and headache. :)
-Biggly
The motor swap I listed above is a perfect example. I also feel my spare tire cover fits as well.[/QUOTE]
A lot of the reasoning is done by members with a specific agenda. What isn't based on that is faulty logic dating back to modern day thinking from the 70s (i.e. front sway in stock....some Porsches didn't have them for example.) Once in a while there are a few updates that make things seem almost right again but there are quite a few flaws.
I've just decided to play by the rules for better or for worse. If I don't like them I'll run in another club. Honestly I'm boycotting all National level events in '06 at this point due to the fact that the "shock rule" isn't going to be clarified and they'll just let it stand and see what happens. No thanks, I'm running locally next year and saving money and headache. :)
-Biggly
| dmitrik4 | 12-17-2005 06:07 PM |
[QUOTE=cfvwtuner]Wow, you are a pleasant kind of guy. This is the kind of person which keeps me away from SCCA and their events.
I'll give you that a 2.5 wont be legal in STS, fine. Then I should be able to change to a 2.2. It was available in the exact same car.
If I ran DSP then would the motor swap be legal? How can the VW example be legal? A rocco and a Golf were never the same vehicle.
I'm not bitching. I'm looking for reasons why things are legal on some and not on others. My spare tire cover question was never answered either. Also not answered was what class the 02-up Impreza is listed in.
A paragraph is used to seperate different ideas. Different ideas, different paragraphs.[/QUOTE]
you CAN change it to a 2.2 in ST...as long as you change over everything else that differentiated a 1.8 and a 2.2 model. in fact, you can do that in Stock class! just be prepared to prove it if anyone questions.
you can swap the 1.8 to the 2.2 in SP...those cars are listed on the same line in the rules, which are located [URL=http://scca.org/_filelibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf]here.[/URL]
however, the 2.5 impreza is listed on a different line, so you can't do that swap in SP.
what's the fundamental difference between swapping in a motor that's .7L bigger and swapping in one with a turbo, besides the amount of power you'd gain? if you can defend the rule against the WRX swap, the same reasoning can apply to a rule disallowing an RS swap. what about an ESP WRX? should i be able to drop in an STi motor there? you're basing your opinion on a degree difference, which is what the rulesmakers have done. you and they merely differ on where that line is.
to answer your impreza classing question, the STi is in A Stock, the WRX in D Stock, 2.5RS is classed in G Stock, and other Imprezas are in H Stock.
the SP classification puts the STi into BSP, the WRX into ESP, "impreza 2.5" into DSP and "impreza not otherwise classified" into FSP.
i did notice that the A-1 jetta and rocco "('75-'92)" are on the same line; thus those 8v engines are interchangeable. the a-2 golf/jetta 8v "('85-'93)" is on a different line than the rocco, which is also listed as "scirocco (8v all)." it seems like the section might have some typos, but i don't know VWs that well.
you'd have to ask the folks who protested you about the spare cover, but i suspect the thumbscrew in the neon is considered to be a "permanent factory fastener."
without judging your motives, i also suspect Draken's seeming grumpiness comes from the fact that people always want to change the rules when it benefits them, and usually can't offer any better reasons than "this is what i want to do, and i think i should be able to."
I'll give you that a 2.5 wont be legal in STS, fine. Then I should be able to change to a 2.2. It was available in the exact same car.
If I ran DSP then would the motor swap be legal? How can the VW example be legal? A rocco and a Golf were never the same vehicle.
I'm not bitching. I'm looking for reasons why things are legal on some and not on others. My spare tire cover question was never answered either. Also not answered was what class the 02-up Impreza is listed in.
A paragraph is used to seperate different ideas. Different ideas, different paragraphs.[/QUOTE]
you CAN change it to a 2.2 in ST...as long as you change over everything else that differentiated a 1.8 and a 2.2 model. in fact, you can do that in Stock class! just be prepared to prove it if anyone questions.
you can swap the 1.8 to the 2.2 in SP...those cars are listed on the same line in the rules, which are located [URL=http://scca.org/_filelibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf]here.[/URL]
however, the 2.5 impreza is listed on a different line, so you can't do that swap in SP.
what's the fundamental difference between swapping in a motor that's .7L bigger and swapping in one with a turbo, besides the amount of power you'd gain? if you can defend the rule against the WRX swap, the same reasoning can apply to a rule disallowing an RS swap. what about an ESP WRX? should i be able to drop in an STi motor there? you're basing your opinion on a degree difference, which is what the rulesmakers have done. you and they merely differ on where that line is.
to answer your impreza classing question, the STi is in A Stock, the WRX in D Stock, 2.5RS is classed in G Stock, and other Imprezas are in H Stock.
the SP classification puts the STi into BSP, the WRX into ESP, "impreza 2.5" into DSP and "impreza not otherwise classified" into FSP.
i did notice that the A-1 jetta and rocco "('75-'92)" are on the same line; thus those 8v engines are interchangeable. the a-2 golf/jetta 8v "('85-'93)" is on a different line than the rocco, which is also listed as "scirocco (8v all)." it seems like the section might have some typos, but i don't know VWs that well.
you'd have to ask the folks who protested you about the spare cover, but i suspect the thumbscrew in the neon is considered to be a "permanent factory fastener."
without judging your motives, i also suspect Draken's seeming grumpiness comes from the fact that people always want to change the rules when it benefits them, and usually can't offer any better reasons than "this is what i want to do, and i think i should be able to."
| Storm | 12-17-2005 07:34 PM |
Sorry for any confusion, I didn't mean to say that the brake rule had changed this year. This change happened a couple years ago, shortly after STS became national status. Prior to that, rotors could not be drilled or slotted.
And yes, I was incorrect in saying that calipers can be changed. There is nothing in the rule saying that they can be changed. I was thinking along the lines of boosters and some other key parts like prop. valves.
From the '06 rules:
[B]15.6 BRAKES[/B]
[I]Vehicles may only exceed the allowances of 13.6 as specified herein.
A. Any brake line, single or dual master cylinder, vacuum brake
booster, or brake proportioning valves may be used. This does
not allow multiple separate cylinders, but does allow for any
single, dual-circuit cylinder. �Safety brakers� and units such as
the �Brake Guard System� are permitted. ABS braking systems
may be disabled, but not removed; brake boosters may be removed
or added. Air ducts may be fitted to the brakes, provided
that they extend in a forward direction only, and that no changes
are made in the body/structure for their use. They may serve no
other purpose. Backing plates and dirt shields may be modified
or removed.
B. Cross-drilled and/or slotted brake rotors may be used, provided
the replacement rotors have the same dimensions as standard
rotors and are of a standard-type construction and of ferrous
metallic material. This does not permit the use of a two-piece
hat/rotor assembly unless the standard configuration is twopiece.[/I]
Jay Storm
And yes, I was incorrect in saying that calipers can be changed. There is nothing in the rule saying that they can be changed. I was thinking along the lines of boosters and some other key parts like prop. valves.
From the '06 rules:
[B]15.6 BRAKES[/B]
[I]Vehicles may only exceed the allowances of 13.6 as specified herein.
A. Any brake line, single or dual master cylinder, vacuum brake
booster, or brake proportioning valves may be used. This does
not allow multiple separate cylinders, but does allow for any
single, dual-circuit cylinder. �Safety brakers� and units such as
the �Brake Guard System� are permitted. ABS braking systems
may be disabled, but not removed; brake boosters may be removed
or added. Air ducts may be fitted to the brakes, provided
that they extend in a forward direction only, and that no changes
are made in the body/structure for their use. They may serve no
other purpose. Backing plates and dirt shields may be modified
or removed.
B. Cross-drilled and/or slotted brake rotors may be used, provided
the replacement rotors have the same dimensions as standard
rotors and are of a standard-type construction and of ferrous
metallic material. This does not permit the use of a two-piece
hat/rotor assembly unless the standard configuration is twopiece.[/I]
Jay Storm
| cfvwtuner | 12-17-2005 07:45 PM |
I dont have a motive in the whole thing. I'm going to do to my car what I want to do. I'm looking for reasons why things are the way they are, just a decent explination would be good. There hasnt been one other than "The SCCA has done it this way forever, either take it or go away" attitude.
| AUTOwrXER | 12-18-2005 09:53 AM |
Mark Daddio's SM car is daily driven, and was driven to each of the National events this year with Hoosiers in the back seat! It still has A/C, but no cruise control (which must have sucked when he tore his right calf muscle at Topeka and had to drive back to CT).
| dmitrik4 | 12-18-2005 12:32 PM |
[QUOTE=cfvwtuner]I dont have a motive in the whole thing. I'm going to do to my car what I want to do. I'm looking for reasons why things are the way they are, just a decent explination would be good. There hasnt been one other than "The SCCA has done it this way forever, either take it or go away" attitude.[/QUOTE]
i don't know what more explanation you want, or what else can be given. the membership made up the ruels, based on distinctions that were drawn at what the mmeeberhsip felt were logical points. individuals may disagree with were those lines have been drawn, but that doens't make them illogical. case in point: the membership doesn't feel that the L and the RS are similar enough to permit parts swapping in SP class; there are other clases provided for that. you obviously disagree with that conclusion; ok. you seem to want an explanation of "why" the L and RS are too different; that's an unanswerable question.
i don't know what more explanation you want, or what else can be given. the membership made up the ruels, based on distinctions that were drawn at what the mmeeberhsip felt were logical points. individuals may disagree with were those lines have been drawn, but that doens't make them illogical. case in point: the membership doesn't feel that the L and the RS are similar enough to permit parts swapping in SP class; there are other clases provided for that. you obviously disagree with that conclusion; ok. you seem to want an explanation of "why" the L and RS are too different; that's an unanswerable question.
| Templar | 12-18-2005 02:22 PM |
I can give you one extremely good reason to look at why this update/backdate is not allowed.
Curb weight 1995 Impreza L-1098 kg
Curb weight 1998 Impreza RS-1234 kg
And before you go saying that the difference is in the engine, it isn't. There might be 50 lbs difference in the DOHC 2.5 and the SOHC 1.8, but certainly not much more.
You can ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you that I am not the biggest fan of the SCCA, but I do race with them. You asked for a reason why it isn't legal...there you go.
Curb weight 1995 Impreza L-1098 kg
Curb weight 1998 Impreza RS-1234 kg
And before you go saying that the difference is in the engine, it isn't. There might be 50 lbs difference in the DOHC 2.5 and the SOHC 1.8, but certainly not much more.
You can ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you that I am not the biggest fan of the SCCA, but I do race with them. You asked for a reason why it isn't legal...there you go.
| cfvwtuner | 12-18-2005 06:45 PM |
At least this is an answer with something to it.
The curb weight listed, is that for an AWD 1995 L? I cant imagine that there is a 300 pound weight difference in things like sound deadining and trim.
The curb weight listed, is that for an AWD 1995 L? I cant imagine that there is a 300 pound weight difference in things like sound deadining and trim.
| adhowe70 | 12-18-2005 07:48 PM |
Start with the sunroof. All RS models have it. Then add power everything. Fog lights, higher crash test standard bumpers, etc... it all ads up.
There's a reason I'm starting my project car with an '96 Brighton and not my '00 RS. And its all about weight.
There's a reason I'm starting my project car with an '96 Brighton and not my '00 RS. And its all about weight.
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