| chimchimm5 | 09-06-2006 02:43 PM |
Why is the tarmac section of rally drifted?
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Noob question:
If grip is the fastest way around a paved surface, and drift is the fastest way around a low traction surface; why do they drift the tarmac section of a rally?
(eg the street section at Xgames)
And sorta related, what's faster on a downhill touge?
If grip is the fastest way around a paved surface, and drift is the fastest way around a low traction surface; why do they drift the tarmac section of a rally?
(eg the street section at Xgames)
And sorta related, what's faster on a downhill touge?
| MFR Sweep | 09-06-2006 02:44 PM |
still crappy grip because they didn't stop to put on tarmac tires. the rally tires are hard and not grippy on pavement.
| Ferg | 09-06-2006 02:49 PM |
With the exception of hairpins, I don't see a lot of "drifting" on WRC tarmac events.
Most of the time the cars look positively glued to the ground.
Most of the time the cars look positively glued to the ground.
| leecea | 09-06-2006 02:52 PM |
On a related note, I was browsing an old car book (from the 70s) and they mentioned that hanging out the tail a bit (aka drifting) was slightly slower around the corner but gave you a better exit speed. They accompanied it with a picture of a JPS Lotus 72 hanging the tail out. I was confused :confused:
| MFR Sweep | 09-06-2006 02:52 PM |
reading pwns jooo Ferg
| RallyCat66 | 09-06-2006 02:54 PM |
In general, they try not to slide the car around corners on tarmac. But, cars cut corners pulling dirt and mud on the surface, the tarmac is not smooth and grippy like a race track, etc, etc, so grip is sometimes not great and you end up sliding the car through the corner whether you want to or not.
Tight corners on the other hand, the fast way around them is to snap the rear of the car around with the handbrake and get back on the gas as soon as possible. Works fine once in a while, but do it too much and the tires go away real quickly.
At the X-Games they made them stay on the gravel tires which are lousy on pavement. If they had tarmac tires on, they would have taken a much more traditional racing line.
Tight corners on the other hand, the fast way around them is to snap the rear of the car around with the handbrake and get back on the gas as soon as possible. Works fine once in a while, but do it too much and the tires go away real quickly.
At the X-Games they made them stay on the gravel tires which are lousy on pavement. If they had tarmac tires on, they would have taken a much more traditional racing line.
| KC | 09-06-2006 02:54 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;15149765]Noob question:
If grip is the fastest way around a paved surface, and drift is the fastest way around a low traction surface; why do they drift the tarmac section of a rally?
(eg the street section at Xgames)
And sorta related, what's faster on a downhill touge?[/QUOTE]
Grip > * in almost all cases assuming you have the best tires to create grip. If they did just the x-games stadium portion of the rally on tarmac alone, the tires would have been all tires suited for pavement grip.
Since more time was to be lost in the dirt portion of the event, I would think they went with great dirt tires to minimize their time on the dirt portion, that were marginal at best on the pavement.
Lacking best tires to create grip (dirt/snow tires) you have to adjust your driving style to be fast around a corner.
You should drive someplace where it snows in a car with soft sidewalled snow tires on a warm day on pavement. You car kinda 'floats' over things and slow to react to steering inputs.
--kC
If grip is the fastest way around a paved surface, and drift is the fastest way around a low traction surface; why do they drift the tarmac section of a rally?
(eg the street section at Xgames)
And sorta related, what's faster on a downhill touge?[/QUOTE]
Grip > * in almost all cases assuming you have the best tires to create grip. If they did just the x-games stadium portion of the rally on tarmac alone, the tires would have been all tires suited for pavement grip.
Since more time was to be lost in the dirt portion of the event, I would think they went with great dirt tires to minimize their time on the dirt portion, that were marginal at best on the pavement.
Lacking best tires to create grip (dirt/snow tires) you have to adjust your driving style to be fast around a corner.
You should drive someplace where it snows in a car with soft sidewalled snow tires on a warm day on pavement. You car kinda 'floats' over things and slow to react to steering inputs.
--kC
| MFR Sweep | 09-06-2006 02:56 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea;15149922]On a related note, I was browsing an old car book (from the 70s) and they mentioned that hanging out the tail a bit (aka drifting) was slightly slower around the corner but gave you a better exit speed. They accompanied it with a picture of a JPS Lotus 72 hanging the tail out. I was confused :confused:[/QUOTE]
That applies to tarmac only races where the cars are specifically set up for tarmac. the rally that the OP is speaking of is a tarmac section in the middle of a gravel stage.
On gravel the "drifting" is used to hold the position of the car on the road while going faster than the corner would normally allow
That applies to tarmac only races where the cars are specifically set up for tarmac. the rally that the OP is speaking of is a tarmac section in the middle of a gravel stage.
On gravel the "drifting" is used to hold the position of the car on the road while going faster than the corner would normally allow
| Ferg | 09-06-2006 02:59 PM |
[QUOTE=MFR Sweep;15149925]reading pwns jooo Ferg[/QUOTE]
Not really.
He was being specific about the XGames, I was expanding the discussion to include the WRC.
It would be interesting to see how the driving would be in a combined gravel/tarmac event in the WRC.
Not really.
He was being specific about the XGames, I was expanding the discussion to include the WRC.
It would be interesting to see how the driving would be in a combined gravel/tarmac event in the WRC.
| RallyCat66 | 09-06-2006 03:01 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea;15149922]On a related note, I was browsing an old car book (from the 70s) and they mentioned that hanging out the tail a bit (aka drifting) was slightly slower around the corner but gave you a better exit speed. They accompanied it with a picture of a JPS Lotus 72 hanging the tail out. I was confused :confused:[/QUOTE]
The slip angle going around corners used to be much higher than it is today because of the tire technology. In the 60's and 70's, you would drift the car slightly because the maximum grip from the tires was achieved at a slip angle of maybe 5 - 10%. Today's tires have maximum grip at a slip angle much lower than that (i.e. almost no slip angle). It also depends on how the tire reacts to heat buildup. Slip angles generate lots of heat which affect modern tires much more than it did on the bias ply tires of the 60's and 70's.
The slip angle going around corners used to be much higher than it is today because of the tire technology. In the 60's and 70's, you would drift the car slightly because the maximum grip from the tires was achieved at a slip angle of maybe 5 - 10%. Today's tires have maximum grip at a slip angle much lower than that (i.e. almost no slip angle). It also depends on how the tire reacts to heat buildup. Slip angles generate lots of heat which affect modern tires much more than it did on the bias ply tires of the 60's and 70's.
| makofoto | 09-06-2006 03:19 PM |
If you don't really know the road in a rally, drifting through a corner can be safer, because if it opens up, you just keep adding power, if it closes down, you can increase your drift angle to tighten your line and in effect slow you down.
| sachilles | 09-06-2006 03:41 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto;15150281]If you don't really know the road in a rally, drifting through a corner can be safer, because if it opens up, you just keep adding power, if it closes down, you can increase your drift angle to tighten your line and in effect slow you down.[/QUOTE]
^^^what he said. Also, in a typical rally, they are not as familiar with the course in front of them as you would be at a track. So "drifting" through allows the driver and above average chance of taking the corner fast,....but not the fastest possible line.
Trying to take the same corner without the drift, means you have to do it precisely, If done perfectly, you'll be able to take the corner faster than a car drifting through....but a minor mistake, means you will take the corner slower than drifting through.
so I think the drifting behavior is playing the odds that it will work out better in a scenario where you are unfamiliar with the turn.
Finding a 'suprise' decreasing radius turn could be disasterous, so the drift approach is a safer way to approach it.
^^^what he said. Also, in a typical rally, they are not as familiar with the course in front of them as you would be at a track. So "drifting" through allows the driver and above average chance of taking the corner fast,....but not the fastest possible line.
Trying to take the same corner without the drift, means you have to do it precisely, If done perfectly, you'll be able to take the corner faster than a car drifting through....but a minor mistake, means you will take the corner slower than drifting through.
so I think the drifting behavior is playing the odds that it will work out better in a scenario where you are unfamiliar with the turn.
Finding a 'suprise' decreasing radius turn could be disasterous, so the drift approach is a safer way to approach it.
| bjorn240 | 09-06-2006 03:48 PM |
[QUOTE=KC;15149956]Grip > * in almost all cases assuming you have the best tires to create grip. If they did just the x-games stadium portion of the rally on tarmac alone, the tires would have been all tires suited for pavement grip.
Since more time was to be lost in the dirt portion of the event, I would think they went with great dirt tires to minimize their time on the dirt portion, that were marginal at best on the pavement. [/QUOTE]
All well reasoned arguments, but alas, all wrong. Even on the mixed tarmac/gravel surface, the best tire choice would have been an intermediate tire like the BF Goodrich TA0 series, since the course was heavily skewed toward tarmac.
Alas, the rules at the X Games stipulated that teams use ONLY gravel tires with a minimum tread depth, and a specific listing of allowed tires was posted. The rationale was to keep costs down for teams since tarmac tires would only have been used for the SSS and to provide a bit more sliding and sideways action for the fans.
- Christian
(X Games Rally? Yeah, I won that!)
Since more time was to be lost in the dirt portion of the event, I would think they went with great dirt tires to minimize their time on the dirt portion, that were marginal at best on the pavement. [/QUOTE]
All well reasoned arguments, but alas, all wrong. Even on the mixed tarmac/gravel surface, the best tire choice would have been an intermediate tire like the BF Goodrich TA0 series, since the course was heavily skewed toward tarmac.
Alas, the rules at the X Games stipulated that teams use ONLY gravel tires with a minimum tread depth, and a specific listing of allowed tires was posted. The rationale was to keep costs down for teams since tarmac tires would only have been used for the SSS and to provide a bit more sliding and sideways action for the fans.
- Christian
(X Games Rally? Yeah, I won that!)
| WRXedUSA | 09-06-2006 03:53 PM |
[IMG]http://swrt.com/img_gallery/772761118.jpg[/IMG]
3pt turns are not exactly warranted on roads like this.
3pt turns are not exactly warranted on roads like this.
| makofoto | 09-06-2006 03:53 PM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15150713]and to provide a bit more sliding and sideways action for the fans.
- Christian
(X Games Rally? Yeah, I won that!)[/QUOTE]
... just as I thought. :-)
Where you in the car when Travis did his 7 flips last year, including one over Mopho?
- Christian
(X Games Rally? Yeah, I won that!)[/QUOTE]
... just as I thought. :-)
Where you in the car when Travis did his 7 flips last year, including one over Mopho?
| bjorn240 | 09-06-2006 04:07 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto;15150779]Where you in the car when Travis did his 7 flips last year, including one over Mopho?[/QUOTE]
Yup, that was me. I've done every rally with Travis since he started rallying, with the exception of Pikes Peak 2004 (Mike Fennel) and Rim of the World 2006 (Jakke Honkanen).
- Christian
Yup, that was me. I've done every rally with Travis since he started rallying, with the exception of Pikes Peak 2004 (Mike Fennel) and Rim of the World 2006 (Jakke Honkanen).
- Christian
| GRMPer | 09-06-2006 04:07 PM |
I watched the X-games and noticed that McRae was the only driver that wasn't drifting every turn like a maniac on the asphalt. In fact, my thought was, "wow, he actually looks more like a good (but not great) autocrosser in the tight stuff." Coincidentally, he had the fastest split times through those sections.
My suggestion...if there are going to be more tarmac events on the schedule, you guys need to take your car to an autocross or two. Sure we're dweebs, but we *know* asphalt.
Per
My suggestion...if there are going to be more tarmac events on the schedule, you guys need to take your car to an autocross or two. Sure we're dweebs, but we *know* asphalt.
Per
| makofoto | 09-06-2006 04:28 PM |
Maybe it helps that McRae has been road racing the last couple of years.
Christian ... so does Travis buy the beer (and replacement underwear?) after those incidents? :lol: Or does he blame you ... :p
Christian ... so does Travis buy the beer (and replacement underwear?) after those incidents? :lol: Or does he blame you ... :p
| rallymaniac | 09-06-2006 05:05 PM |
No, McRae is a professional Rally driver and he knows his stuff. This means that he knew that in order to be the fastest on the tarmac section, you have to be as tight as possible around the corners and not to drift. Look at the time difference the end of this short stage. If not the roll he'd have like 5 sec advantage over Travis.
| bjorn240 | 09-06-2006 05:11 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15151850]If not the roll he'd have like 5 sec advantage over Travis.[/QUOTE]
I had him at -1.55 sec going into the stadium. You think he was going to make up another 3.5 seconds in the dirt? :)
I agree with Per that Travis and I could use some more tarmac practice, but Travis was pretty clean in the tar, too. He ran a nice tight line around the fountain, for example.
- Christian
I had him at -1.55 sec going into the stadium. You think he was going to make up another 3.5 seconds in the dirt? :)
I agree with Per that Travis and I could use some more tarmac practice, but Travis was pretty clean in the tar, too. He ran a nice tight line around the fountain, for example.
- Christian
| bjorn240 | 09-06-2006 05:13 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto;15151277]Christian ... so does Travis buy the beer (and replacement underwear?) after those incidents? :lol: Or does he blame you ... :p[/QUOTE]
Neither, usually. Just part of the job, I'm afraid.
If he has blamed me, I've deserved it, but in that case I called the note *twice*, so I think I was pretty blameless. :)
Neither, usually. Just part of the job, I'm afraid.
If he has blamed me, I've deserved it, but in that case I called the note *twice*, so I think I was pretty blameless. :)
| rallymaniac | 09-06-2006 05:14 PM |
well even after the roll his time was only what 1.8sec worse than Travis?
| StuBeck | 09-06-2006 05:19 PM |
[QUOTE=MFR Sweep;15149794]still crappy grip because they didn't stop to put on tarmac tires. the rally tires are hard and not grippy on pavement.[/QUOTE]
Yes they do, that was only in the x games where they didn't change tyres.
Yes they do, that was only in the x games where they didn't change tyres.
| Butt Dyno | 09-06-2006 05:28 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;15149765]And sorta related, what's faster on a downhill touge?[/QUOTE]:lol:
| WRXedUSA | 09-06-2006 05:31 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno;15152209]:lol:[/QUOTE]
:lol: He said "touge" :lol:
:lol: He said "touge" :lol:
| fliz | 09-06-2006 05:35 PM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15151958]I had him at -1.55 sec going into the stadium. You think he was going to make up another 3.5 seconds in the dirt? :)
I agree with Per that Travis and I could use some more tarmac practice, but Travis was pretty clean in the tar, too. He ran a nice tight line around the fountain, for example.
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Watching the replay on "your" myspace page, I noticed that Travis had a much cleaner line than I first thought during his run, although even when I wathced it I thought his line was cleaner than anybody else they showed before him.
And he was definitely tight on the fountain...didn't he bounce off the curb? :lol:
I agree with Per that Travis and I could use some more tarmac practice, but Travis was pretty clean in the tar, too. He ran a nice tight line around the fountain, for example.
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Watching the replay on "your" myspace page, I noticed that Travis had a much cleaner line than I first thought during his run, although even when I wathced it I thought his line was cleaner than anybody else they showed before him.
And he was definitely tight on the fountain...didn't he bounce off the curb? :lol:
| bjorn240 | 09-06-2006 05:39 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15152002]well even after the roll his time was only what 1.8sec worse than Travis?[/QUOTE]
+0.52 I believe. Colin estimates he lost about 1 second in the roll, and that seemed right by my watch.
+0.52 I believe. Colin estimates he lost about 1 second in the roll, and that seemed right by my watch.
| RB5 Clone | 09-06-2006 05:43 PM |
...except for the above-mentioned handbrake turns, the main reason you see cars drifting on tarmac rally stages is becasue of the sand and gravel cars pull onto the tarmac by cutting corners. This crap makes the pavement WAY less grippy, the tires pick up "marbles" (pebbles, sand etc) and whoo-hoo you are sideways baby!
also, gravel tires with the right compound for prevailing temps are NOT that bad on pavement. you'd be surprised how well they grip. breakaway is gradual and predictable, it's not like slicks where you have grip-grip-grip-then-nothing-bye-bye...
tarmac rally tires have compound and carcass designed to maximize predictability and forgiving handling.
DG
Man with 50-some well worn rally tires (gravel, snow, tarmac) in the shop basement
also, gravel tires with the right compound for prevailing temps are NOT that bad on pavement. you'd be surprised how well they grip. breakaway is gradual and predictable, it's not like slicks where you have grip-grip-grip-then-nothing-bye-bye...
tarmac rally tires have compound and carcass designed to maximize predictability and forgiving handling.
DG
Man with 50-some well worn rally tires (gravel, snow, tarmac) in the shop basement
| fliz | 09-06-2006 05:49 PM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone;15152427]
DG
Man with 50-some well worn rally tires (gravel, snow, tarmac) in the shop basement[/QUOTE]
Got anything not-so-worn in a 14" diameter?
DG
Man with 50-some well worn rally tires (gravel, snow, tarmac) in the shop basement[/QUOTE]
Got anything not-so-worn in a 14" diameter?
| Chromer | 09-06-2006 06:15 PM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15150713]All well reasoned arguments, but alas, all wrong. Even on the mixed tarmac/gravel surface, the best tire choice would have been an intermediate tire like the BF Goodrich TA0 series, since the course was heavily skewed toward tarmac.
Alas, the rules at the X Games stipulated that teams use ONLY gravel tires with a minimum tread depth, and a specific listing of allowed tires was posted. The rationale was to keep costs down for teams since tarmac tires would only have been used for the SSS and to provide a bit more sliding and sideways action for the fans.
- Christian
(X Games Rally? Yeah, I won that!)[/QUOTE]
Now I read somewhere (flat over crest?) that some teams were burning through multiple sets of tires each practice session, so presumably it would have been actually cheaper to get a set or two of tarmac tires, had the rules allowed.
Alas, the rules at the X Games stipulated that teams use ONLY gravel tires with a minimum tread depth, and a specific listing of allowed tires was posted. The rationale was to keep costs down for teams since tarmac tires would only have been used for the SSS and to provide a bit more sliding and sideways action for the fans.
- Christian
(X Games Rally? Yeah, I won that!)[/QUOTE]
Now I read somewhere (flat over crest?) that some teams were burning through multiple sets of tires each practice session, so presumably it would have been actually cheaper to get a set or two of tarmac tires, had the rules allowed.
| RB5 Clone | 09-06-2006 06:30 PM |
[QUOTE=fliz;15152511]Got anything not-so-worn in a 14" diameter?[/QUOTE]
all 15", so solly ;)
DG
all 15", so solly ;)
DG
| leecea | 09-06-2006 10:38 PM |
RallyCat66... thanks for the info.
| datageek | 09-06-2006 11:51 PM |
[QUOTE=GRMPer;15150965]I watched the X-games and noticed that McRae was the only driver that wasn't drifting every turn like a maniac on the asphalt. [/QUOTE]
I got to see him drift on the tarmac a couple of times during practice. It was a sight to see.
Of course he didn't do it in the real race, 'cause it's, well, slower.
I got to see him drift on the tarmac a couple of times during practice. It was a sight to see.
Of course he didn't do it in the real race, 'cause it's, well, slower.
| bjorn240 | 09-07-2006 12:01 AM |
[QUOTE=Chromer;15152817]Now I read somewhere (flat over crest?) that some teams were burning through multiple sets of tires each practice session, so presumably it would have been actually cheaper to get a set or two of tarmac tires, had the rules allowed.[/QUOTE]
I don't think so. We had no appreciable wear at all from the practice stages. In fact, we [U]raced[/U] the SSS on the same tires we used in one of the practice sessions, and which we'd previously run on gravel stages, so I don't think that's accurate at all.
I don't think so. We had no appreciable wear at all from the practice stages. In fact, we [U]raced[/U] the SSS on the same tires we used in one of the practice sessions, and which we'd previously run on gravel stages, so I don't think that's accurate at all.
| GRMPer | 09-07-2006 07:26 AM |
>I agree with Per that Travis and I could use some more tarmac practice, but >Travis was pretty clean in the tar, too. He ran a nice tight line around the >fountain, for example.
....replay....
Yep, I'll buy that. Actually, looking back over the event, the faster the drivers were, the less drifting that was taking place, in general. McRae was just really consistent about it.
It's not as pretty, but you sure loose a lot less momentum.
Per
....replay....
Yep, I'll buy that. Actually, looking back over the event, the faster the drivers were, the less drifting that was taking place, in general. McRae was just really consistent about it.
It's not as pretty, but you sure loose a lot less momentum.
Per
| KC | 09-07-2006 08:14 AM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15150713]All well reasoned arguments, but alas, all wrong. Even on the mixed tarmac/gravel surface, the best tire choice would have been an intermediate tire like the BF Goodrich TA0 series, since the course was heavily skewed toward tarmac.[/QUOTE]
Allow me to essplain.... :)
If the whole stadium event was Tarmac, (X-Games rules requiring gravel tires aside) would you have been on anything less than a tarmac tire and consider that the fastest choice?
Was talking to the perspective of the 2 extremes... tarmac or dirt. Admittedly I don't have much experience with Intermediates so didn't offer an opinion on them (nor did I know of X-Games requiring the gravel tires).
In the case of the OP doing :lol: touge :lol: I'd be hard pressed to say to get any other tire than the grippiest tire out there for the street and run a grip line because drifting would more than likely be slower.
--kC
Allow me to essplain.... :)
If the whole stadium event was Tarmac, (X-Games rules requiring gravel tires aside) would you have been on anything less than a tarmac tire and consider that the fastest choice?
Was talking to the perspective of the 2 extremes... tarmac or dirt. Admittedly I don't have much experience with Intermediates so didn't offer an opinion on them (nor did I know of X-Games requiring the gravel tires).
In the case of the OP doing :lol: touge :lol: I'd be hard pressed to say to get any other tire than the grippiest tire out there for the street and run a grip line because drifting would more than likely be slower.
--kC
| KC | 09-07-2006 08:40 AM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15151958]I agree with Per that Travis and I could use some more tarmac practice, but Travis was pretty clean in the tar, too. He ran a nice tight line around the fountain, for example.[/QUOTE]Yeahhh... welll sort of.... I beleive the fountain turn is where Colin made most, if not all his time.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and maybe get in over my head... just for discussion sake. :)
Look at these two pictures of the 'fountain':
[IMG]http://users.adelphia.net/~ctechnik/xgames11.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://users.adelphia.net/~ctechnik/xgames14.jpg[/IMG]
Colin held a drift around a tight 180 mostly because a 'racing line' on tires with sub-optimal grip would have induced too much push. Colin was able to get on the gas early because his car was pointed straight, sooner, allowing him to late apex the corner. This pays off in spades not at the fountain turn (both cars could have made it around the turn within 1/10-2/10ths of a second), but at the end of the straight after that turn where Colins exit speed would have been slightly higher.
Travis entered trying a grip line, and got push. The picture above shows how late Travis is, in getting out of that corner. He's almost right at the apex of the turn and he's pretty much parallel to the apex. He's late, causing a slower exit speed and compounding it to a much slower speed at the end of the straight following.
As Per said, try some auto-xes (if you want to co-drive at nationals, I have a seat open in my B-Stock RX8... hehe). Late apexing is the name of the game when there's a straight following... and late apexing allows one to MAKE their own straights in an Auto-x.
--kC
(Friends don't let friends early apex)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and maybe get in over my head... just for discussion sake. :)
Look at these two pictures of the 'fountain':
[IMG]http://users.adelphia.net/~ctechnik/xgames11.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://users.adelphia.net/~ctechnik/xgames14.jpg[/IMG]
Colin held a drift around a tight 180 mostly because a 'racing line' on tires with sub-optimal grip would have induced too much push. Colin was able to get on the gas early because his car was pointed straight, sooner, allowing him to late apex the corner. This pays off in spades not at the fountain turn (both cars could have made it around the turn within 1/10-2/10ths of a second), but at the end of the straight after that turn where Colins exit speed would have been slightly higher.
Travis entered trying a grip line, and got push. The picture above shows how late Travis is, in getting out of that corner. He's almost right at the apex of the turn and he's pretty much parallel to the apex. He's late, causing a slower exit speed and compounding it to a much slower speed at the end of the straight following.
As Per said, try some auto-xes (if you want to co-drive at nationals, I have a seat open in my B-Stock RX8... hehe). Late apexing is the name of the game when there's a straight following... and late apexing allows one to MAKE their own straights in an Auto-x.
--kC
(Friends don't let friends early apex)
| ratt_finkel | 09-07-2006 09:01 AM |
[QUOTE=KC;15158654]--kC
(Friends don't let friends early apex)[/QUOTE]
haha, I love it!
(Friends don't let friends early apex)[/QUOTE]
haha, I love it!
| bjorn240 | 09-07-2006 09:24 AM |
KC,
I think in many cases I'd agree with you, but in this case the data we have don't bear that out. And in fairness, the gravel tires have pretty good grip on tar, so maybe driving the line is faster.
Our team splits had Colin at -1 exiting the stadium and at -0 when crossing under the bridge at the pits.
In practice, he was making anywhere from 1.3 to 1.7 on us in the north complex, and my split had him entering the stadium at -1.5, so I think he was close to dead even at the pit bridge (even though the TV splits have him at -1 or so there).
That would indicate that he lost 1 second between the stadium exit and the pit bridge, which is the part prior to and around the fountain and the suibsequent straight.
Not a defense of our tarmac skills, which are not to par with Colin's and which we'll be working to improve in 2007, but definitely more food for thought.
It would be interesting to see the cars' locations on the stage a la WRC virtual spectator!
- Christian
I think in many cases I'd agree with you, but in this case the data we have don't bear that out. And in fairness, the gravel tires have pretty good grip on tar, so maybe driving the line is faster.
Our team splits had Colin at -1 exiting the stadium and at -0 when crossing under the bridge at the pits.
In practice, he was making anywhere from 1.3 to 1.7 on us in the north complex, and my split had him entering the stadium at -1.5, so I think he was close to dead even at the pit bridge (even though the TV splits have him at -1 or so there).
That would indicate that he lost 1 second between the stadium exit and the pit bridge, which is the part prior to and around the fountain and the suibsequent straight.
Not a defense of our tarmac skills, which are not to par with Colin's and which we'll be working to improve in 2007, but definitely more food for thought.
It would be interesting to see the cars' locations on the stage a la WRC virtual spectator!
- Christian
| KC | 09-07-2006 09:38 AM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15158955]
It would be interesting to see the cars' locations on the stage a la WRC virtual spectator!
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Yeah... work on that next year! That would be great. There are other places after the fountain that Colin could have lost time, or that you gained time over him, before re-entering the stadium. Gonna examine the video tonight and see if I can get anything from it. It won't be perfect, but if anything it'll get me to shut up. ;)
--kC
It would be interesting to see the cars' locations on the stage a la WRC virtual spectator!
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Yeah... work on that next year! That would be great. There are other places after the fountain that Colin could have lost time, or that you gained time over him, before re-entering the stadium. Gonna examine the video tonight and see if I can get anything from it. It won't be perfect, but if anything it'll get me to shut up. ;)
--kC
| gotsol | 09-07-2006 09:56 AM |
off topic:
So any word on a Winter X-Games rally?
Ice racing FTW!!!
So any word on a Winter X-Games rally?
Ice racing FTW!!!
| bjorn240 | 09-07-2006 10:04 AM |
[QUOTE=KC;15159122]There are other places after the fountain that Colin could have lost time, or that you gained time over him, before re-entering the stadium. Gonna examine the video tonight and see if I can get anything from it. It won't be perfect, but if anything it'll get me to shut up. ;)
[/QUOTE]
True, but we had team members taking splits at the stadium exit, the pit entrance (end of back straight), and the stadium entry, and they were -1, 0, -1.5, respectively. So if you believe those times (I do) it's clear that he lost time, relatively, between the stadium exit and the pit entrance.
But yeah, have a look at the video and let me know what you find. Clearly, Travis and I have more than an academic interest in getting faster on tar.
- Christian
[/QUOTE]
True, but we had team members taking splits at the stadium exit, the pit entrance (end of back straight), and the stadium entry, and they were -1, 0, -1.5, respectively. So if you believe those times (I do) it's clear that he lost time, relatively, between the stadium exit and the pit entrance.
But yeah, have a look at the video and let me know what you find. Clearly, Travis and I have more than an academic interest in getting faster on tar.
- Christian
| runnah | 09-07-2006 10:11 AM |
[QUOTE=gotsol;15159353]off topic:
So any word on a Winter X-Games rally?
Ice racing FTW!!![/QUOTE]
That would be awesome!!
Quick start emailing ESPN!
So any word on a Winter X-Games rally?
Ice racing FTW!!![/QUOTE]
That would be awesome!!
Quick start emailing ESPN!
| SWortham | 09-07-2006 11:21 AM |
I don't think this was mentioned. But another reason to drift on tarmac sometimes is to keep the car on boost for the corner exit. That's not so much a factor with a car that reaches peak boost at 3K RPM's but it can be a factor in some of the turbo monsters, especially on the [I]really[/I] tight hairpins.
| runnah | 09-07-2006 11:28 AM |
[QUOTE=SWortham;15160423]I don't think this was mentioned. But another reason to drift on tarmac sometimes is to keep the car on boost for the corner exit. That's not so much a factor with a car that reaches peak boost at 3K RPM's but it can be a factor in some of the turbo monsters, especially on the [I]really[/I] tight hairpins.[/QUOTE]
Thats what anti-lag is for. It keeps the turbo turbine spinning so when they do enter corners like that, there will be boost waiting for them on the exit. WRC cars aren't so much "tubro monsters" as they are just "race cars". They have, by regulation, 300whp. Its the fact that the power to weight ratio is so high. Wrc cars are around 1200kgs.
Thats what anti-lag is for. It keeps the turbo turbine spinning so when they do enter corners like that, there will be boost waiting for them on the exit. WRC cars aren't so much "tubro monsters" as they are just "race cars". They have, by regulation, 300whp. Its the fact that the power to weight ratio is so high. Wrc cars are around 1200kgs.
| randy zimmer | 09-07-2006 12:45 PM |
Why?
The quick answer is because its hard to stop doing it.
Funny story - after about 15 rallys in a row, I went to a solo with an R tired Z3.
I came to a quick left, gave the steering wheel a big tug and the car just zigged following the wheel exactly - that's when it hit me that I wasn't on a gravel stage and nothing was the same.
Same car - different day. Not as quick left, big off camber, deteriorating surface. I thought I was just a bit loose when the steering hit the end of lock and went solid. A little slide (in my head) was close to 90 degrees in reality.
So, to sum up. When you get so used to looking out the side windows, it is very hard to drive "right".
Colin kept it very tidy on the tarmac except at the fountain, he popped it perfectly to get all four wheels pulling straight for the accel. Travis, (just after the posted pic) did the same thing and I'm sure that was the right thing to do for those cars. You have to drive to your car's strength and with a 4wd turbo, straights are king.
re: the pic of Travis
no push in that pic - no steering at all, very nice attitude.
rz
The quick answer is because its hard to stop doing it.
Funny story - after about 15 rallys in a row, I went to a solo with an R tired Z3.
I came to a quick left, gave the steering wheel a big tug and the car just zigged following the wheel exactly - that's when it hit me that I wasn't on a gravel stage and nothing was the same.
Same car - different day. Not as quick left, big off camber, deteriorating surface. I thought I was just a bit loose when the steering hit the end of lock and went solid. A little slide (in my head) was close to 90 degrees in reality.
So, to sum up. When you get so used to looking out the side windows, it is very hard to drive "right".
Colin kept it very tidy on the tarmac except at the fountain, he popped it perfectly to get all four wheels pulling straight for the accel. Travis, (just after the posted pic) did the same thing and I'm sure that was the right thing to do for those cars. You have to drive to your car's strength and with a 4wd turbo, straights are king.
re: the pic of Travis
no push in that pic - no steering at all, very nice attitude.
rz
| randy zimmer | 09-07-2006 01:47 PM |
Just watched the show again, Travis was much slidier than I remembered.
There was no push in the still because he was in a drift.
He started it sooner than Colin did, Colin did it all at once.
rz
There was no push in the still because he was in a drift.
He started it sooner than Colin did, Colin did it all at once.
rz
| runnah | 09-07-2006 01:56 PM |
[QUOTE=randy zimmer;15162477]Just watched the show again, Travis was much slidier than I remembered.
There was no push in the still because he was in a drift.
He started it sooner than Colin did, Colin did it all at once.
rz[/QUOTE]
Yeah I just watched it also. Colin was smoother and drifted more, but its hard to tell who was faster through the section
There was no push in the still because he was in a drift.
He started it sooner than Colin did, Colin did it all at once.
rz[/QUOTE]
Yeah I just watched it also. Colin was smoother and drifted more, but its hard to tell who was faster through the section
| SWortham | 09-07-2006 01:56 PM |
[QUOTE=runnah;15160524]Thats what anti-lag is for. It keeps the turbo turbine spinning so when they do enter corners like that, there will be boost waiting for them on the exit. WRC cars aren't so much "tubro monsters" as they are just "race cars". They have, by regulation, 300whp. Its the fact that the power to weight ratio is so high. Wrc cars are around 1200kgs.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking more of the group b cars which were a little different, heh.
It sounds like the old-school anti-lag systems are nearly obsolete and now they use exhaust gas recirculation because it's easier on the engine...
[url]http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/bangbang.html[/url]
I wonder how effective that is. But even with anti-lag, the idea with a turbo car is still to get on the gas sooner than an N/A car. To get the most out of it, it seems like your driving style has to change. (Of course, I haven't driven a car with anti-lag, so I could be underestimating it.)
I was thinking more of the group b cars which were a little different, heh.
It sounds like the old-school anti-lag systems are nearly obsolete and now they use exhaust gas recirculation because it's easier on the engine...
[url]http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/bangbang.html[/url]
I wonder how effective that is. But even with anti-lag, the idea with a turbo car is still to get on the gas sooner than an N/A car. To get the most out of it, it seems like your driving style has to change. (Of course, I haven't driven a car with anti-lag, so I could be underestimating it.)
| chimchimm5 | 09-07-2006 02:43 PM |
[QUOTE=KC;15158491]In the case of the OP doing :lol: touge :lol:....
--kC[/QUOTE]
You guys are assuming WAYY too much. I'm no more likely to be drifting a downhill touge than I am to be competiting in the Xgames rally race. But oh wait... I was still curious about the technique of both. How can that possibly be?? :rolleyes:
Good discussions otherwise.
--kC[/QUOTE]
You guys are assuming WAYY too much. I'm no more likely to be drifting a downhill touge than I am to be competiting in the Xgames rally race. But oh wait... I was still curious about the technique of both. How can that possibly be?? :rolleyes:
Good discussions otherwise.
| bjorn240 | 09-07-2006 02:58 PM |
So yeah, short answer:
Sliding ain't the fast way around on tarmac unless:
1) you're saddled with weird rules making you use gravel tires (and even then less slidy is better)
2) you're a japanese superhero or paid drifter (Hi Tanner!)
Sliding ain't the fast way around on tarmac unless:
1) you're saddled with weird rules making you use gravel tires (and even then less slidy is better)
2) you're a japanese superhero or paid drifter (Hi Tanner!)
| RB5 Clone | 09-07-2006 03:02 PM |
[QUOTE=SWortham;15162621]
But even with anti-lag, the idea with a turbo car is still to get on the gas sooner than an N/A car. To get the most out of it, it seems like your driving style has to change. (Of course, I haven't driven a car with anti-lag, so I could be underestimating it.)[/QUOTE]
a 2liter turbo scooby running a full rally motor with antilag is kind of like driving a big ole V8, minus half the weight. Essentially, there is no lag--you pump the go pedal, you scoot. our team's WRX race car makes max torque quite low in the rev range (3000-3500), and its restrictor pretty much shuts down the fun above 5000.
We also run a rally 2.5 RS, and its throttle response is little different from the ALS turbo car (minus the 275 whp kick in the shorts, of course).
Dave G
But even with anti-lag, the idea with a turbo car is still to get on the gas sooner than an N/A car. To get the most out of it, it seems like your driving style has to change. (Of course, I haven't driven a car with anti-lag, so I could be underestimating it.)[/QUOTE]
a 2liter turbo scooby running a full rally motor with antilag is kind of like driving a big ole V8, minus half the weight. Essentially, there is no lag--you pump the go pedal, you scoot. our team's WRX race car makes max torque quite low in the rev range (3000-3500), and its restrictor pretty much shuts down the fun above 5000.
We also run a rally 2.5 RS, and its throttle response is little different from the ALS turbo car (minus the 275 whp kick in the shorts, of course).
Dave G
| theicewall | 09-07-2006 03:14 PM |
[QUOTE=MFR Sweep;15149794]still crappy grip because they didn't stop to put on tarmac tires. the rally tires are hard and not grippy on pavement.[/QUOTE]
In the X-games yes, but in WRC they have very grippy tires and still drifting and handbrake skill is used.
[QUOTE=Ferg;15149879]With the exception of hairpins, I don't see a lot of "drifting" on WRC tarmac events.
Most of the time the cars look positively glued to the ground.[/QUOTE]
The only e-brake induced drifting with rear wheel lock-up is on the hairpins, so that I agree with, but at the same time on the exit of almost every corner Loeb's car is facing the exit but still maintains a slip angle of about 10 degrees. Its a throttle on power-slide to exit the corners that most rally drivers seem to be going with these days
[QUOTE=RallyCat66;15149952]In general, they try not to slide the car around corners on tarmac. But, cars cut corners pulling dirt and mud on the surface, the tarmac is not smooth and grippy like a race track, etc, etc, so grip is sometimes not great and you end up sliding the car through the corner whether you want to or not.[/QUOTE]
A strategy often implemented in tarmac rally is edging off the inside of a corner, because if you get your inside tire off the pavement you can use the dipped road on the inside sort of like a rail that will allow you to pull more lateral G's. Additionally you get the benefit of a straighter line in multiple corners.
[QUOTE=MFR Sweep;15149978]
On gravel the "drifting" is used to hold the position of the car on the road while going faster than the corner would normally allow[/QUOTE]
Same thing on tarmac, but your slip angle is a lot lower in order to be fast, say 5-10%, rather than 35-50% or higher on gravel.
In the X-games yes, but in WRC they have very grippy tires and still drifting and handbrake skill is used.
[QUOTE=Ferg;15149879]With the exception of hairpins, I don't see a lot of "drifting" on WRC tarmac events.
Most of the time the cars look positively glued to the ground.[/QUOTE]
The only e-brake induced drifting with rear wheel lock-up is on the hairpins, so that I agree with, but at the same time on the exit of almost every corner Loeb's car is facing the exit but still maintains a slip angle of about 10 degrees. Its a throttle on power-slide to exit the corners that most rally drivers seem to be going with these days
[QUOTE=RallyCat66;15149952]In general, they try not to slide the car around corners on tarmac. But, cars cut corners pulling dirt and mud on the surface, the tarmac is not smooth and grippy like a race track, etc, etc, so grip is sometimes not great and you end up sliding the car through the corner whether you want to or not.[/QUOTE]
A strategy often implemented in tarmac rally is edging off the inside of a corner, because if you get your inside tire off the pavement you can use the dipped road on the inside sort of like a rail that will allow you to pull more lateral G's. Additionally you get the benefit of a straighter line in multiple corners.
[QUOTE=MFR Sweep;15149978]
On gravel the "drifting" is used to hold the position of the car on the road while going faster than the corner would normally allow[/QUOTE]
Same thing on tarmac, but your slip angle is a lot lower in order to be fast, say 5-10%, rather than 35-50% or higher on gravel.
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