| briank | 07-07-2004 08:26 AM |
WRX crash video
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The risks of track driving :(
Subydude.com's mirror:
[URL=http://www.minircdude.com/videos/WRX_Crash_LimeRock.wmv]http://www.minircdude.com/videos/WRX_Crash_LimeRock.wmv[/URL]
My site:
[URL=http://www.skifreakz.com/track/]http://www.skifreakz.com/track/[/URL]
This happened at Lime Rock Park June 12th. Last track day for me :(
Subydude.com's mirror:
[URL=http://www.minircdude.com/videos/WRX_Crash_LimeRock.wmv]http://www.minircdude.com/videos/WRX_Crash_LimeRock.wmv[/URL]
My site:
[URL=http://www.skifreakz.com/track/]http://www.skifreakz.com/track/[/URL]
This happened at Lime Rock Park June 12th. Last track day for me :(
| Calamity Jesus | 07-07-2004 09:45 AM |
Wow.. that sucks (understatement, I know) :(
There must have been something there (as you said) for both your car and that car in front of you to lose traction so suddenly. :huh:
There must have been something there (as you said) for both your car and that car in front of you to lose traction so suddenly. :huh:
| Chillibop | 07-07-2004 01:48 PM |
Wow,
I did exactly the same thing in exactly the same place 2 years ago, fortunately my car stopped sideways literally 2 inches from the tire wall.
Dylan
I did exactly the same thing in exactly the same place 2 years ago, fortunately my car stopped sideways literally 2 inches from the tire wall.
Dylan
| PaulC | 07-07-2004 02:27 PM |
Is that why the guy on the previous lap got all squirrely in that corner?
How much damage?
How much damage?
| HoRo1 | 07-07-2004 02:34 PM |
Sorry to see that. Oil I suppose. :(
| ratt_finkel | 07-07-2004 05:56 PM |
Weak, the link is down.
| fastsubie | 07-07-2004 06:25 PM |
Linky no worky
Fess
Fess
| mofugga | 07-07-2004 07:39 PM |
did you lift off the gas when it got loose?
| gregr01 | 07-07-2004 11:17 PM |
A couple of comments, fwiw...
- Props to you for posting a video where you crashed. Not an easy thing to do.
- You've driven LRP before so you can judge best whether your initial loss of traction was due to surface conditions or over driving. It's too hard to tell from the video.
- The shunt wasn't caused by the traction loss; rather, it looks like you either failed to correct quickly enough or properly (or both). Hard to tell which. Was that an instructor riding with you, or just a passenger?
- You are lucky you didn't break at least your right thumb. Unless you are shifting you have it tightly wrapped around the inside of the steering wheel (I assume the left thumb is similarly wrapped tight). Not proper form, and definitely not where you want your thumb to be when the wheel is about to be massively torqued out of your hands.
- I think you were wearing an open face helmet. If so, forget about that for road racing. Open face is only for autox. Get a real helmet before you turn another wheel on any track. If I didn't remember right, whoops, nevermind!
- I believe there is no excuse for single-car incidents during street-car track days, other than a mechanical failure that could not be foreseen. Besides mechanical issues, the real risk is (and should be) other drivers doing something so unexpected that contact is unavoidable. This too should be as rare as the unforeseeable mechanical, but that's "racing."
- If you ultimately can't afford to wad up your street car, don't track it. You wrote that this would be your last track day. That's too bad, but perhaps it's time to consider an inexpensive real race car (such as spec RX-7) that can be written off if necessary, and that has the safety equipment to keep you in one piece.
I recently took my STi to the Phoenix roval. I was familiar with the course so I didn't feel there was too much danger, but I'm not going to do that particular track again... there is simply too much risk to a street car if a mechanical failure occurs while flat out on the oval. Not to mention "racing" on even a portion of an oval without HANS is a highly questionable practice.
I've been to LRP many times (though I've only done a handful of hot laps there, including a few in the rain), and it's definitely old school. Minimal runoff areas, and enough places where you can do much more damage than what happened to you. The only worse place I can think of for street car track days is "old" Mosport (haven't been there since 2000, and I hear it's much improved) or any roval.
Tough luck, and I hope your insurance covers the damage.
- Props to you for posting a video where you crashed. Not an easy thing to do.
- You've driven LRP before so you can judge best whether your initial loss of traction was due to surface conditions or over driving. It's too hard to tell from the video.
- The shunt wasn't caused by the traction loss; rather, it looks like you either failed to correct quickly enough or properly (or both). Hard to tell which. Was that an instructor riding with you, or just a passenger?
- You are lucky you didn't break at least your right thumb. Unless you are shifting you have it tightly wrapped around the inside of the steering wheel (I assume the left thumb is similarly wrapped tight). Not proper form, and definitely not where you want your thumb to be when the wheel is about to be massively torqued out of your hands.
- I think you were wearing an open face helmet. If so, forget about that for road racing. Open face is only for autox. Get a real helmet before you turn another wheel on any track. If I didn't remember right, whoops, nevermind!
- I believe there is no excuse for single-car incidents during street-car track days, other than a mechanical failure that could not be foreseen. Besides mechanical issues, the real risk is (and should be) other drivers doing something so unexpected that contact is unavoidable. This too should be as rare as the unforeseeable mechanical, but that's "racing."
- If you ultimately can't afford to wad up your street car, don't track it. You wrote that this would be your last track day. That's too bad, but perhaps it's time to consider an inexpensive real race car (such as spec RX-7) that can be written off if necessary, and that has the safety equipment to keep you in one piece.
I recently took my STi to the Phoenix roval. I was familiar with the course so I didn't feel there was too much danger, but I'm not going to do that particular track again... there is simply too much risk to a street car if a mechanical failure occurs while flat out on the oval. Not to mention "racing" on even a portion of an oval without HANS is a highly questionable practice.
I've been to LRP many times (though I've only done a handful of hot laps there, including a few in the rain), and it's definitely old school. Minimal runoff areas, and enough places where you can do much more damage than what happened to you. The only worse place I can think of for street car track days is "old" Mosport (haven't been there since 2000, and I hear it's much improved) or any roval.
Tough luck, and I hope your insurance covers the damage.
| RS_to_WRX_swap | 07-08-2004 03:36 AM |
fix the link i want to see it
| briank | 07-08-2004 08:38 AM |
Thanks for the concerns and questions. Rather than answer them all here. I've had a local thread going talking in more detail about the incident
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=591144[/url]
I exceeded my bandwidth yesterday (4GB/day) so powweb shut my site down. I should have it back up this morning.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=591144[/url]
I exceeded my bandwidth yesterday (4GB/day) so powweb shut my site down. I should have it back up this morning.
| cooleyjb | 07-08-2004 10:39 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gregr01 [/i]
[B]A couple of comments, fwiw...
- I think you were wearing an open face helmet. If so, forget about that for road racing. Open face is only for autox. Get a real helmet before you turn another wheel on any track. If I didn't remember right, whoops, nevermind!
[COLOR=red]Apparently you've never seen this small US series called NASCAR and rally. The only thing that open faced helmets are bad for is open wheel.[/COLOR]
- I believe there is no excuse for single-car incidents during street-car track days, other than a mechanical failure that could not be foreseen. Besides mechanical issues, the real risk is (and should be) other drivers doing something so unexpected that contact is unavoidable. This too should be as rare as the unforeseeable mechanical, but that's "racing."
[COLOR=red]Whatever.This is the best time to push the limits of the car and the safest time to have an incident like this. LRP just has close walls so this did result in contact but at least no one was on his tail to T-bone him. Not everyone is going to be perfect thier first time out adn i've seen Schumacher put cars into the wall during practice laps[/COLOR]
- If you ultimately can't afford to wad up your street car, don't track it. You wrote that this would be your last track day. That's too bad, but perhaps it's time to consider an inexpensive real race car (such as spec RX-7) that can be written off if necessary, and that has the safety equipment to keep you in one piece.
I recently took my STi to the Phoenix roval. I was familiar with the course so I didn't feel there was too much danger, but I'm not going to do that particular track again... there is simply too much risk to a street car if a mechanical failure occurs while flat out on the oval. Not to mention "racing" on even a portion of an oval without HANS is a highly questionable practice.
[COLOR=red]Sounds like you forgot what you said in the previous paragraph[/COLOR]
I've been to LRP many times (though I've only done a handful of hot laps there, including a few in the rain), and it's definitely old school. Minimal runoff areas, and enough places where you can do much more damage than what happened to you. The only worse place I can think of for street car track days is "old" Mosport (haven't been there since 2000, and I hear it's much improved) or any roval.
Tough luck, and I hope your insurance covers the damage. [/B][/QUOTE]
[B]A couple of comments, fwiw...
- I think you were wearing an open face helmet. If so, forget about that for road racing. Open face is only for autox. Get a real helmet before you turn another wheel on any track. If I didn't remember right, whoops, nevermind!
[COLOR=red]Apparently you've never seen this small US series called NASCAR and rally. The only thing that open faced helmets are bad for is open wheel.[/COLOR]
- I believe there is no excuse for single-car incidents during street-car track days, other than a mechanical failure that could not be foreseen. Besides mechanical issues, the real risk is (and should be) other drivers doing something so unexpected that contact is unavoidable. This too should be as rare as the unforeseeable mechanical, but that's "racing."
[COLOR=red]Whatever.This is the best time to push the limits of the car and the safest time to have an incident like this. LRP just has close walls so this did result in contact but at least no one was on his tail to T-bone him. Not everyone is going to be perfect thier first time out adn i've seen Schumacher put cars into the wall during practice laps[/COLOR]
- If you ultimately can't afford to wad up your street car, don't track it. You wrote that this would be your last track day. That's too bad, but perhaps it's time to consider an inexpensive real race car (such as spec RX-7) that can be written off if necessary, and that has the safety equipment to keep you in one piece.
I recently took my STi to the Phoenix roval. I was familiar with the course so I didn't feel there was too much danger, but I'm not going to do that particular track again... there is simply too much risk to a street car if a mechanical failure occurs while flat out on the oval. Not to mention "racing" on even a portion of an oval without HANS is a highly questionable practice.
[COLOR=red]Sounds like you forgot what you said in the previous paragraph[/COLOR]
I've been to LRP many times (though I've only done a handful of hot laps there, including a few in the rain), and it's definitely old school. Minimal runoff areas, and enough places where you can do much more damage than what happened to you. The only worse place I can think of for street car track days is "old" Mosport (haven't been there since 2000, and I hear it's much improved) or any roval.
Tough luck, and I hope your insurance covers the damage. [/B][/QUOTE]
| MattDell | 07-08-2004 11:02 AM |
Site's still down.
| KC | 07-08-2004 11:25 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Cobreth[/i]
[B] Site's still down. [/B][/QUOTE]
It should be back around noon according to his hosting co. (He mentioned that in the other thread) :)
[B] Site's still down. [/B][/QUOTE]
It should be back around noon according to his hosting co. (He mentioned that in the other thread) :)
| AcquaCow | 07-08-2004 03:16 PM |
it's up.
| ratt_finkel | 07-08-2004 03:51 PM |
Damn man, that's really emotional to watch. It looked like you were driving really well. Smooth with inputs, and whatnot. I'd venture to say that AWD pulled the car towards the wall during the slide. Had that been RWD you would've been going backwards.
On a lighter note, what that Ben Stein riding with you?:lol:
On a lighter note, what that Ben Stein riding with you?:lol:
| NeoteriX | 07-08-2004 05:30 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cooleyjb[/i]
[B] Apparently you've never seen this small US series called NASCAR and rally. The only thing that open faced helmets are bad for is open wheel. [/B][/QUOTE]
Some autox instructors I've talked to still prefer a helmet with a chin/face bar because there's just that much more of a margin of safety, and I guess HPDE's are several magnitudes of risk higher than autoxs. The face shield itself isn't that important since you don't have stuff flying at you in closed cockpit drivng, but I guess its the chinbar that makes the difference. I've read that the chinbar, in addition to protecting your face, helps to prevent your head/neck from hyperextending, since the chinbar will hit your chest, limiting movement (I'm a little skeptical on this, but what do I know).
In either case, I've read that one of the primary reasons why Rally drivers don't wear closed faced helmets is because of the importance of communication -- they need to be able to talk to and hear each other, especially if their intercom system fails or whatever.
oh yeah, back on topic -- That was a painful video to watch. Everything did happen really fast, and even though I'm a n00b, I sympathize in that I wouldn't have known what to do to save it. Best of luck and glad the insurance is helping you.
[B] Apparently you've never seen this small US series called NASCAR and rally. The only thing that open faced helmets are bad for is open wheel. [/B][/QUOTE]
Some autox instructors I've talked to still prefer a helmet with a chin/face bar because there's just that much more of a margin of safety, and I guess HPDE's are several magnitudes of risk higher than autoxs. The face shield itself isn't that important since you don't have stuff flying at you in closed cockpit drivng, but I guess its the chinbar that makes the difference. I've read that the chinbar, in addition to protecting your face, helps to prevent your head/neck from hyperextending, since the chinbar will hit your chest, limiting movement (I'm a little skeptical on this, but what do I know).
In either case, I've read that one of the primary reasons why Rally drivers don't wear closed faced helmets is because of the importance of communication -- they need to be able to talk to and hear each other, especially if their intercom system fails or whatever.
oh yeah, back on topic -- That was a painful video to watch. Everything did happen really fast, and even though I'm a n00b, I sympathize in that I wouldn't have known what to do to save it. Best of luck and glad the insurance is helping you.
| briank | 07-08-2004 06:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ratt_finkel[/i]
[B] On a lighter note, what that Ben Stein riding with you?:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: You're not the first person to ask that!
[B] On a lighter note, what that Ben Stein riding with you?:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: You're not the first person to ask that!
| cooleyjb | 07-08-2004 06:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by NeoteriX [/i]
[B]Some autox instructors I've talked to still prefer a helmet with a chin/face bar because there's just that much more of a margin of safety, and I guess HPDE's are several magnitudes of risk higher than autoxs. The face shield itself isn't that important since you don't have stuff flying at you in closed cockpit drivng, but I guess its the chinbar that makes the difference. I've read that the chinbar, in addition to protecting your face, helps to prevent your head/neck from hyperextending, since the chinbar will hit your chest, limiting movement (I'm a little skeptical on this, but what do I know).
In either case, I've read that one of the primary reasons why Rally drivers don't wear closed faced helmets is because of the importance of communication -- they need to be able to talk to and hear each other, especially if their intercom system fails or whatever.
oh yeah, back on topic -- That was a painful video to watch. Everything did happen really fast, and even though I'm a n00b, I sympathize in that I wouldn't have known what to do to save it. Best of luck and glad the insurance is helping you. [/B][/QUOTE]
My point was this guy was ragging on briank for no reason and to further top it off he was completely off base in most of his reasons. And as for the helmet issue. Use what you feel comfortable with. I like closed face because of the sense of extra security.
[B]Some autox instructors I've talked to still prefer a helmet with a chin/face bar because there's just that much more of a margin of safety, and I guess HPDE's are several magnitudes of risk higher than autoxs. The face shield itself isn't that important since you don't have stuff flying at you in closed cockpit drivng, but I guess its the chinbar that makes the difference. I've read that the chinbar, in addition to protecting your face, helps to prevent your head/neck from hyperextending, since the chinbar will hit your chest, limiting movement (I'm a little skeptical on this, but what do I know).
In either case, I've read that one of the primary reasons why Rally drivers don't wear closed faced helmets is because of the importance of communication -- they need to be able to talk to and hear each other, especially if their intercom system fails or whatever.
oh yeah, back on topic -- That was a painful video to watch. Everything did happen really fast, and even though I'm a n00b, I sympathize in that I wouldn't have known what to do to save it. Best of luck and glad the insurance is helping you. [/B][/QUOTE]
My point was this guy was ragging on briank for no reason and to further top it off he was completely off base in most of his reasons. And as for the helmet issue. Use what you feel comfortable with. I like closed face because of the sense of extra security.
| wrxfromLI | 07-08-2004 07:44 PM |
u didnt pass taht 350z he let u go hehe :)
| briank | 07-08-2004 07:47 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cooleyjb[/i]
[B] My point was this guy was ragging on briank for no reason and to further top it off he was completely off base in most of his reasons. And as for the helmet issue. Use what you feel comfortable with. I like closed face because of the sense of extra security. [/B][/QUOTE]
BTW, I'm wear a closed faced helmet so I don't know where gregr got the idea in the first place. Guess he just felt like lecturing even though he didn't teach us much.
[B] My point was this guy was ragging on briank for no reason and to further top it off he was completely off base in most of his reasons. And as for the helmet issue. Use what you feel comfortable with. I like closed face because of the sense of extra security. [/B][/QUOTE]
BTW, I'm wear a closed faced helmet so I don't know where gregr got the idea in the first place. Guess he just felt like lecturing even though he didn't teach us much.
| Tkacik | 07-08-2004 09:00 PM |
Just watched your video.
Don't give up on track driving just because of this incident. They happen - and unfortunately can be expen$ive.
Those walls look tight there. I never realized they were so close to the track.
Don't give up on track driving just because of this incident. They happen - and unfortunately can be expen$ive.
Those walls look tight there. I never realized they were so close to the track.
| adhowe70 | 07-08-2004 09:24 PM |
Devil's Advocate here... The surface change looks like a likely culprit of the accident. Just as you cross from the concrete patch back to the asphalt surface, the back end steps out. Whether this is true or whether there was fluid on the track, the instigating factor does not appear to be driver error.
Driver error may have exacerbated the initial oversteer (can't tell from the video, only the driver knows), allowing the car to spin. I have NEVER spun my Impreza on throttle. Every time I've lost control of the vehicle has been trailing throttle or under braking. Its hard to do it, but the key is to apply MORE throttle and countersteer when the back end steps out.
Once you apply the brakes or abruptly lift off the throttle while the car is upset, you have completely given up control of the car and have chosen to spin. There is a time for this, too. If you make a single correction and the back end wags again, turning the car away from the tire wall, then lock it down and spin harmlessly into the grass on the other side of the track.
Helmets... I wear a full face hemlet. I also occaisionally drive open wheel open cockpit cars. Open helmets are fine, and in some ways superior to full face helmets. Vision is one way and communication is another. I would wear an open face helmet if I was instructing often.
Andy H.
Driver error may have exacerbated the initial oversteer (can't tell from the video, only the driver knows), allowing the car to spin. I have NEVER spun my Impreza on throttle. Every time I've lost control of the vehicle has been trailing throttle or under braking. Its hard to do it, but the key is to apply MORE throttle and countersteer when the back end steps out.
Once you apply the brakes or abruptly lift off the throttle while the car is upset, you have completely given up control of the car and have chosen to spin. There is a time for this, too. If you make a single correction and the back end wags again, turning the car away from the tire wall, then lock it down and spin harmlessly into the grass on the other side of the track.
Helmets... I wear a full face hemlet. I also occaisionally drive open wheel open cockpit cars. Open helmets are fine, and in some ways superior to full face helmets. Vision is one way and communication is another. I would wear an open face helmet if I was instructing often.
Andy H.
| makofoto | 07-08-2004 10:30 PM |
What player do I need to see the video ... I only get a mass of characters? I'm using a Mac ... but don't usually have this problem?
| Butt Dyno | 07-08-2004 11:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]What player do I need to see the video ... I only get a mass of characters? I'm using a Mac ... but don't usually have this problem? [/B][/QUOTE]If you get a mess of characters your browser doesn't know how to handle the file type probably. Do a save as and open it in whatever media player dealie you use.
john
[B]What player do I need to see the video ... I only get a mass of characters? I'm using a Mac ... but don't usually have this problem? [/B][/QUOTE]If you get a mess of characters your browser doesn't know how to handle the file type probably. Do a save as and open it in whatever media player dealie you use.
john
| ANZAC_1915 | 07-09-2004 12:59 AM |
By the sound of the tires going in there and through the apex, it seems like you just had too much speed, I would have thought there was some point where the slide evens out a bit.
There is a point 1:34 where the car straightens up a touch (pavement kink?) and rather than letting it run a bit wide, you keep trying to pull it in.
And as Andrew said without full throttle once you start to go around....
There is a point 1:34 where the car straightens up a touch (pavement kink?) and rather than letting it run a bit wide, you keep trying to pull it in.
And as Andrew said without full throttle once you start to go around....
| AlpineFD | 07-09-2004 04:06 AM |
I noticed you still had quite bit of opposite lock after spunning out, just out of curiosity, do you think strighten your wheels out would have helped with the situation?
sorry to hear about your car :( I watched your previous videos on limerock, I liked them alot.
sorry to hear about your car :( I watched your previous videos on limerock, I liked them alot.
| makofoto | 07-09-2004 05:16 AM |
I hope you come back after getting everything fixed ... and this time join us AutoCrossing!
Why did you do track days? Personally, I don't get the point of track days ... unless one is getting ready to really go racing ... or you just want to see what some of the famous tracks are like - at a moderate pace. But to me ... driving fast on a track is about taking the car to the limit. Even the very best, M. Schumacher, spins occasionally. What makes any Track Day driver think that the same thing might NOT happen to them ... with essentially little control of where they are going to end up ?!
Come out to a nice SCCA sanctioned AutoCross, or one that adheres to the same general course designing safety rules ... and drive the wheels off your car ... without having to worry about hitting something! I was thrilled the first time I spun on a AX course ... knowing that I had come up against the limits of at least my driving ability if not the car. On a Track you really don't know your absolute limits until you spin ... but most of us can't afford that. AX is where it's at if you want to explore your and your cars limits ... safely. Perhaps after you've become a seasoned AX'er ... you can go back on the track ... but what's the point if you can't afford to go all out ...
I flipped my VW at the Hockenheim Ring when I was a teenager ... just having fun on an open track day. :(
Why did you do track days? Personally, I don't get the point of track days ... unless one is getting ready to really go racing ... or you just want to see what some of the famous tracks are like - at a moderate pace. But to me ... driving fast on a track is about taking the car to the limit. Even the very best, M. Schumacher, spins occasionally. What makes any Track Day driver think that the same thing might NOT happen to them ... with essentially little control of where they are going to end up ?!
Come out to a nice SCCA sanctioned AutoCross, or one that adheres to the same general course designing safety rules ... and drive the wheels off your car ... without having to worry about hitting something! I was thrilled the first time I spun on a AX course ... knowing that I had come up against the limits of at least my driving ability if not the car. On a Track you really don't know your absolute limits until you spin ... but most of us can't afford that. AX is where it's at if you want to explore your and your cars limits ... safely. Perhaps after you've become a seasoned AX'er ... you can go back on the track ... but what's the point if you can't afford to go all out ...
I flipped my VW at the Hockenheim Ring when I was a teenager ... just having fun on an open track day. :(
| Impreza01 | 07-09-2004 06:05 AM |
Adding nothing new here, watching where the WRX ahead of you started sliding its tail, I think it's mostly due to the surface change. If you notice, the other WRX starts sliding right when it's left rear wheel crosses over to different surfaces. Watching where you skidded, the surface changes. How different are the grip between the two surfaces?
| billyr2.5 | 07-09-2004 07:35 AM |
well hey at least they get a nice view of the race at the end of there spinnerama :banana:
| briank | 07-09-2004 08:49 AM |
Ok, I�ll try to answer the many comments/questions all in one shot.
Auto-x. I�ve done almost 20 auto-x�s with the wrx. They were great for learning car control and tons of fun. I�ve definitely learned how to pull the rear back in by doing auto-x. In fact my slalom technique involves purposely getting the tail light by lifting off the throttle and to rotate the car and then get back on the gas to get to the next cone. Problem is even with the BMW club, you get 8 minutes of seat time for a whole day�s commitment. Track days are way more fun. Not only are you on a real race track, but you have lots of time (4x 30minutes) to learn the correct line and a different type of car control.
So let me tell you more about the incident:
About my reaction. I didn�t lift, I kept on the throttle while counter steering. The one thing I did miss was the quick loss of traction in the front. I didn�t notice that until I watched the video. That was very unusual and lasted .5 seconds. I�ve got over 180 laps at Lime Rock under my belt and never had anything like that happen. I�ve also been through that turn faster many times without that happening. I did have the new swaybar (22mm) and endlinks which could have brought out this behavior, but the car felt fine up until that point. Those who are pointing to driver error (which there probably was, at least in the recovery), you have to admit that the tail came out extremely fast. Its not like I�m driving a Viper. I think it is unusual that it could come out that fast.
Also, to have 2 other cars in the same session lose it in that turn seems suspect. I haven't seen 3 cars in one session have that much trouble with big bend.
I�ve been through the incident and video with the instructor I had in the car (another wrx driver with over 3000 laps at Lime Rock). He�s told me while I may have some doubts that I was at fault he�s 100% sure there was something on the track. He says I wasn�t over driving the car and I handled the car correctly after we started to slide. Maybe he�s just trying to keep my confidence up, but he would be the person (besides me) to know what happened.
Thanks for the observations. Keep em coming. That�s what I was hoping for to best understand any mistake I may have made.
Auto-x. I�ve done almost 20 auto-x�s with the wrx. They were great for learning car control and tons of fun. I�ve definitely learned how to pull the rear back in by doing auto-x. In fact my slalom technique involves purposely getting the tail light by lifting off the throttle and to rotate the car and then get back on the gas to get to the next cone. Problem is even with the BMW club, you get 8 minutes of seat time for a whole day�s commitment. Track days are way more fun. Not only are you on a real race track, but you have lots of time (4x 30minutes) to learn the correct line and a different type of car control.
So let me tell you more about the incident:
About my reaction. I didn�t lift, I kept on the throttle while counter steering. The one thing I did miss was the quick loss of traction in the front. I didn�t notice that until I watched the video. That was very unusual and lasted .5 seconds. I�ve got over 180 laps at Lime Rock under my belt and never had anything like that happen. I�ve also been through that turn faster many times without that happening. I did have the new swaybar (22mm) and endlinks which could have brought out this behavior, but the car felt fine up until that point. Those who are pointing to driver error (which there probably was, at least in the recovery), you have to admit that the tail came out extremely fast. Its not like I�m driving a Viper. I think it is unusual that it could come out that fast.
Also, to have 2 other cars in the same session lose it in that turn seems suspect. I haven't seen 3 cars in one session have that much trouble with big bend.
I�ve been through the incident and video with the instructor I had in the car (another wrx driver with over 3000 laps at Lime Rock). He�s told me while I may have some doubts that I was at fault he�s 100% sure there was something on the track. He says I wasn�t over driving the car and I handled the car correctly after we started to slide. Maybe he�s just trying to keep my confidence up, but he would be the person (besides me) to know what happened.
Thanks for the observations. Keep em coming. That�s what I was hoping for to best understand any mistake I may have made.
| ANZAC_1915 | 07-09-2004 09:56 AM |
What about the kink at 1:34? There are times to let the car run wide when you hit those things or pick the wrong line or whatever, and times to pull it in; it looked to me that the car had not taken a "set" after the small surface change and by trying to keep on line with that little bit of weight transfer incomplete (like the wrx in front) you got loose.
Watch it again, it is very slight but you'll see the car head out and you pull the wheel in just a touch.
Glenn
Watch it again, it is very slight but you'll see the car head out and you pull the wheel in just a touch.
Glenn
| AcquaCow | 07-09-2004 11:19 AM |
I see it, but w/o being able to see more of the car, it's hard to tell exactly what's going on.
I've never had my RS more than 45deg around on dry pavement.
I took a 90deg turn a gear higher and 10mph faster than I normally do, hit gravel with the rear outside wheel and wagged.
Looked just like that blue wrx in the vid, but with one less full wag.
I think if I ever got more than 45deg around I'd lock the brakes.
-- Dave
I've never had my RS more than 45deg around on dry pavement.
I took a 90deg turn a gear higher and 10mph faster than I normally do, hit gravel with the rear outside wheel and wagged.
Looked just like that blue wrx in the vid, but with one less full wag.
I think if I ever got more than 45deg around I'd lock the brakes.
-- Dave
| makofoto | 07-09-2004 12:07 PM |
To see the fastest bunch of corrections, that I've ever seen, check out Tsuchiya (the Drift King) driving the Arta NSX in driving rain during a JGTC race ... on the latest Best Motoring Video ... "Skyline The Prodigy." Phenomenal !!! Humbles one ...
On the other hand ... the same DVD has Petter Solberg driving his WRC Suby on the Touge course. The Japanese seem disappointed that Petter drove so controlled and smoothly ... ;)
Briank ... I agree that one doesn't get much track time driving most AX's ... but, I don't know if it's just our area ... but we hold monthly practice sessions ... where by the end of the day ... I've had enough seat time! During the long summer days ... we also have fun runs after our AX's ... and usually get another 5 to 7 runs in. We also have all day driving schools occasionally.
I really like the instant intensity of AX, the need to go fast RIGHT NOW ... and the precision and on the limit driving ... without worry.
Remember ... "If Auto Crossing was any Easier, they'd call it Road Racing!" :D
On the other hand ... the same DVD has Petter Solberg driving his WRC Suby on the Touge course. The Japanese seem disappointed that Petter drove so controlled and smoothly ... ;)
Briank ... I agree that one doesn't get much track time driving most AX's ... but, I don't know if it's just our area ... but we hold monthly practice sessions ... where by the end of the day ... I've had enough seat time! During the long summer days ... we also have fun runs after our AX's ... and usually get another 5 to 7 runs in. We also have all day driving schools occasionally.
I really like the instant intensity of AX, the need to go fast RIGHT NOW ... and the precision and on the limit driving ... without worry.
Remember ... "If Auto Crossing was any Easier, they'd call it Road Racing!" :D
| AlpineFD | 07-09-2004 09:14 PM |
Brian, what was the front/rear allignment setting on the car?
| briank | 07-09-2004 09:30 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Glenn Wallace [/i]
[B]What about the kink at 1:34? There are times to let the car run wide when you hit those things or pick the wrong line or whatever, and times to pull it in; it looked to me that the car had not taken a "set" after the small surface change and by trying to keep on line with that little bit of weight transfer incomplete (like the wrx in front) you got loose.
Watch it again, it is very slight but you'll see the car head out and you pull the wheel in just a touch.
Glenn [/B][/QUOTE]
I watched again and see what you're describing. It was very slight though. Less movement then many of the corrections I made earlier in the turn. Do you really think my rear came out because of that slight movement?
Alpine, I had the car aligned before the event and I had -0.5 camber in the front, -1.5 to -2.0 in the rear (can't remember exactly, I didn't have him touch it), 0 toe all around.
[B]What about the kink at 1:34? There are times to let the car run wide when you hit those things or pick the wrong line or whatever, and times to pull it in; it looked to me that the car had not taken a "set" after the small surface change and by trying to keep on line with that little bit of weight transfer incomplete (like the wrx in front) you got loose.
Watch it again, it is very slight but you'll see the car head out and you pull the wheel in just a touch.
Glenn [/B][/QUOTE]
I watched again and see what you're describing. It was very slight though. Less movement then many of the corrections I made earlier in the turn. Do you really think my rear came out because of that slight movement?
Alpine, I had the car aligned before the event and I had -0.5 camber in the front, -1.5 to -2.0 in the rear (can't remember exactly, I didn't have him touch it), 0 toe all around.
| paultg | 07-09-2004 09:43 PM |
Brian,
I was just watching it again. I found the tire noise to be interesting around that 1:34 second time also. The skid noise skips.
That to me means a few things. Either a tire(s) slid on something, lost contact with the pavement, who knows.
It just seems really stange to me that while that noise changes, your car is sort of pushing, and all of a sudden the noise starts again and it's too late at that point.
With your alignment settings, I also find it pretty stange how the tail came around so easliy. Even with the sway bar. You have quite a bit of rear camber, and not much front camber.
Paul G.
I was just watching it again. I found the tire noise to be interesting around that 1:34 second time also. The skid noise skips.
That to me means a few things. Either a tire(s) slid on something, lost contact with the pavement, who knows.
It just seems really stange to me that while that noise changes, your car is sort of pushing, and all of a sudden the noise starts again and it's too late at that point.
With your alignment settings, I also find it pretty stange how the tail came around so easliy. Even with the sway bar. You have quite a bit of rear camber, and not much front camber.
Paul G.
| fastsubie | 07-09-2004 10:07 PM |
Man thats realy sucks. IMHO it looked like you countered well. I think there was something on the track. But yea at 1:33/1:34 ish you can hear the tires skip or something.
Fess
Fess
| briank | 07-09-2004 10:22 PM |
Yeah, the concrete is definitely noisier (is that a word) than the asphault. You can hear the same changes in noise on the videos where I didn't crash :)
| ANZAC_1915 | 07-10-2004 11:38 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by briank [/i]
[B]I watched again and see what you're describing. It was very slight though. Less movement then many of the corrections I made earlier in the turn. Do you really think my rear came out because of that slight movement?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think there's a slight ridge there between those cement patches and the bitumen. I think it unloaded the left side of the car slightly. Hard to tell without my butt dyno installed though.
I know you really didn't move the wheel all that much in response but that was right when the tail came out, so I dunno. I wouldn't call it a gross error though, but you were carrying quite a bit of speed if the fronts let go too.
Here's a (stupid) track day story.
I was at Pacific Raceways (aka SIR) in my WRX, I was coming into turn 2 and there was a Laguna Seca Blue E46 M3 with a "pro" driver coming up behind me REALLY fast. I got so preoccupied watching my mirror to see if he was going to slow down in time that I missed the braking point and went into turn 2 (big wide 180, fairly flat, patchy pavement) at 80MPH (that was as much as I could get the car slowed down before I had to turn in). So probably 20MPH faster than I thought was my previous limit of the car.
I got about 1/4 way through the corner and thought, hey, the car will stay hooked up the whole way around, cool. But then the tail came out, I immediately floored it and held it sideways through the entire turn (at ~80MPH).
After that lap I went into the pit to change my underwear, I was still shaking (because it wasn't intentional, and I'd pretty much scared myself).
The M3 driver came in and shook my hand "that's the fastest I've ever seen anyone take that turn in a sedan - sideways too, and on three wheels!!!!!"
(so I must have had one of my inside wheels off the ground)
But anyway, I was clearly going too fast but had enough grip at the front to pull myself around the corner.
The moral of this story: I don't know, but once your car went around I don't think you could have recovered. Pretty easy to see it became a 4 wheel slide. (in a spin, both feet in).
What tires you running?
Glenn (the accidental drift king)
[B]I watched again and see what you're describing. It was very slight though. Less movement then many of the corrections I made earlier in the turn. Do you really think my rear came out because of that slight movement?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think there's a slight ridge there between those cement patches and the bitumen. I think it unloaded the left side of the car slightly. Hard to tell without my butt dyno installed though.
I know you really didn't move the wheel all that much in response but that was right when the tail came out, so I dunno. I wouldn't call it a gross error though, but you were carrying quite a bit of speed if the fronts let go too.
Here's a (stupid) track day story.
I was at Pacific Raceways (aka SIR) in my WRX, I was coming into turn 2 and there was a Laguna Seca Blue E46 M3 with a "pro" driver coming up behind me REALLY fast. I got so preoccupied watching my mirror to see if he was going to slow down in time that I missed the braking point and went into turn 2 (big wide 180, fairly flat, patchy pavement) at 80MPH (that was as much as I could get the car slowed down before I had to turn in). So probably 20MPH faster than I thought was my previous limit of the car.
I got about 1/4 way through the corner and thought, hey, the car will stay hooked up the whole way around, cool. But then the tail came out, I immediately floored it and held it sideways through the entire turn (at ~80MPH).
After that lap I went into the pit to change my underwear, I was still shaking (because it wasn't intentional, and I'd pretty much scared myself).
The M3 driver came in and shook my hand "that's the fastest I've ever seen anyone take that turn in a sedan - sideways too, and on three wheels!!!!!"
(so I must have had one of my inside wheels off the ground)
But anyway, I was clearly going too fast but had enough grip at the front to pull myself around the corner.
The moral of this story: I don't know, but once your car went around I don't think you could have recovered. Pretty easy to see it became a 4 wheel slide. (in a spin, both feet in).
What tires you running?
Glenn (the accidental drift king)
| ANZAC_1915 | 07-10-2004 11:42 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg [/i]
[B]Brian,
I was just watching it again. I found the tire noise to be interesting around that 1:34 second time also. The skid noise skips.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ooh, I wasn't listening that closely. That would dovetail with my "slight unloading" theory based on the visual of the surface and that the car looked like it wanted to go a little wide.
[B]Brian,
I was just watching it again. I found the tire noise to be interesting around that 1:34 second time also. The skid noise skips.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ooh, I wasn't listening that closely. That would dovetail with my "slight unloading" theory based on the visual of the surface and that the car looked like it wanted to go a little wide.
| JJV-MA | 09-13-2004 04:55 PM |
Wow, that is a painful video to watch. I just came across this link today. Good thing no one was hurt.
It doesn't appear that there was anything you could do to "save" that spin. I tried to compare where you got loose versus the car you were following during the previous lap, and it appeared to be in different spots. It happened to the first car right around the second apex in Big Bend. It happened to you as you were tracking out of Big Bend.
Your steering inputs looked smooth and I don't think you were in the corner too hot. The only thing that I could think of it that you possibly induced oversteer by applying a little too much throttle after the second apex... especially since you mentioned that you had a new, bigger rear sway bar installed.
I hope you have kept up with the track days.
It doesn't appear that there was anything you could do to "save" that spin. I tried to compare where you got loose versus the car you were following during the previous lap, and it appeared to be in different spots. It happened to the first car right around the second apex in Big Bend. It happened to you as you were tracking out of Big Bend.
Your steering inputs looked smooth and I don't think you were in the corner too hot. The only thing that I could think of it that you possibly induced oversteer by applying a little too much throttle after the second apex... especially since you mentioned that you had a new, bigger rear sway bar installed.
I hope you have kept up with the track days.
| briank | 10-19-2004 05:14 PM |
Nope. No more track days for me for a long time :(
That's ok. I have skiing and mountain biking to get my thrills still. I may get into auto-x again next summer too.
That's ok. I have skiing and mountain biking to get my thrills still. I may get into auto-x again next summer too.
| projectrally | 10-20-2004 01:02 AM |
I love how two seconds after the accident, you're both calm and discussing the corner. Not the typical bout of senseless explitives you usually hear in a wreck vid. Glad you were both okay.
| Patrick Olsen | 10-20-2004 04:44 AM |
For those that have never been to LRP, the concrete has [i]less[/i] traction than the asphalt, so it seems weird that the car would lose grip transitioning onto the pavement. I think the "skip" in tire noise is due to a small strip of asphalt between the big, main strip of concrete, and then one last small square of concrete - just the way it looks to me from the video. I really can't see anything in that video that explains why the car stepped out like that.
FWIW, as far as recovery goes, I think your mistake was the same as mine (in the Uphill at LRP) - you counter-steered, but not enough and not quickly enough. When you see video clips of professional (or even very good non-professional) drivers bringing the car back in line when the tail steps out their hands are [i]so[/i] quick. I know in my case I was kinda, "Ooooh, hey, the tail is stepping out. I guess I should counter-steer now." In my case (and I think in yours) the steering input is just too little and too slow.
makofoto - With all due respect, your comments are clearly those of someone who has not done an open track event. Take it from a guy who totalled his daily-driver street car at only his 3rd OT event, and has done another 25 days on track since then - there is [i]no[/i] comparison between auto-x and OT events!! Unless I'm at sea I catch every auto-x event held out here in HI, and I did the same when I was stationed in CT - I love auto-x events. But auto-x events are just cheap hits on the go-fast crack pipe to tide me over between OT events. Do one someday and you'll understand. :cool:
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
'99 Legacy 2.5GT sedan (8/26/00 - RIP, Lime Rock Park)
FWIW, as far as recovery goes, I think your mistake was the same as mine (in the Uphill at LRP) - you counter-steered, but not enough and not quickly enough. When you see video clips of professional (or even very good non-professional) drivers bringing the car back in line when the tail steps out their hands are [i]so[/i] quick. I know in my case I was kinda, "Ooooh, hey, the tail is stepping out. I guess I should counter-steer now." In my case (and I think in yours) the steering input is just too little and too slow.
makofoto - With all due respect, your comments are clearly those of someone who has not done an open track event. Take it from a guy who totalled his daily-driver street car at only his 3rd OT event, and has done another 25 days on track since then - there is [i]no[/i] comparison between auto-x and OT events!! Unless I'm at sea I catch every auto-x event held out here in HI, and I did the same when I was stationed in CT - I love auto-x events. But auto-x events are just cheap hits on the go-fast crack pipe to tide me over between OT events. Do one someday and you'll understand. :cool:
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
'99 Legacy 2.5GT sedan (8/26/00 - RIP, Lime Rock Park)
| MNbiker | 10-20-2004 10:28 AM |
[QUOTE=Patrick Olsen]makofoto - With all due respect, your comments are clearly those of someone who has not done an open track event. Take it from a guy who totalled his daily-driver street car at only his 3rd OT event, and has done another 25 days on track since then - there is [i]no[/i] comparison between auto-x and OT events!! Unless I'm at sea I catch every auto-x event held out here in HI, and I did the same when I was stationed in CT - I love auto-x events. But auto-x events are just cheap hits on the go-fast crack pipe to tide me over between OT events. Do one someday and you'll understand. :cool:
[/QUOTE]
Different strokes for different folks. I've done plenty of OT events, and frankly find them a bit boring, compared to autox. Sure, you get to drive fast, but after a while the sensation of speed subsides (at least for me). Without the thrill of competition, track days just seem like a way to wear out brakes & tires really quickly.
-Steve
REAL wheel-to-wheel racing, on the other hand, never gets old. (just REALLY expensive!) ;)
[/QUOTE]
Different strokes for different folks. I've done plenty of OT events, and frankly find them a bit boring, compared to autox. Sure, you get to drive fast, but after a while the sensation of speed subsides (at least for me). Without the thrill of competition, track days just seem like a way to wear out brakes & tires really quickly.
-Steve
REAL wheel-to-wheel racing, on the other hand, never gets old. (just REALLY expensive!) ;)
| Virrdog | 10-20-2004 03:24 PM |
Wow, sorry about the car, man. I am in no way an expert after driving BeaveRun for 2 open track days... but this is what I saw. You came through the last bend a little early. You were pointing towards the infield, recognized this and tried to tighten up your line with the steering wheel. Whatever combination ensued, be it a sub-conscience minimal lifting of the throttle, weight transfer off the back from the extra front scrubbing, or just a difference in response from the new sway bar sent the back end out. You did just about everything right you could for a non-professional driver. You definitely weren't over-driving your car. Come out to BeaveRun sometime, the polymer-impregnated surface and rolling corners beats the snot out of the concrete/asphalt patchwork you were driving on :D.
And for those who haven't done a track day, don't knock it until you try it. I've done auto-x also... and I had a very minimal speed fix. I had more fun going to grab a snack for lunch in between sessions... I got to use 3rd gear, also :rolleyes: .
And for those who haven't done a track day, don't knock it until you try it. I've done auto-x also... and I had a very minimal speed fix. I had more fun going to grab a snack for lunch in between sessions... I got to use 3rd gear, also :rolleyes: .
| RafalW | 10-20-2004 05:27 PM |
Sorry for the car.
As some people already said it looks like you were too slow to recover.
And I have always one advice for track days like this: Do not try to save too hard. let the car go off if you can but do not crank it even more. Watching this video I almost feel pain to beeing unable to pull this wheel quickly left and then a little right. :(
Again, sorry for the car. :(
As some people already said it looks like you were too slow to recover.
And I have always one advice for track days like this: Do not try to save too hard. let the car go off if you can but do not crank it even more. Watching this video I almost feel pain to beeing unable to pull this wheel quickly left and then a little right. :(
Again, sorry for the car. :(
| endeavor | 10-20-2004 06:44 PM |
I noticed in the other thread your insurance is going to cover it. That's awesome :banana:
Realistically I am not sure what more you could have done...
Realistically I am not sure what more you could have done...
| makofoto | 10-21-2004 02:06 AM |
Hey Pat ... I haven't found any motor sports that isn't exciting! :-) I just can't afford to go 10/10th and over on a "real" track. Not since my parents bought me a new (but used) car after I rolled my first one at my neighborhood track ... a place called the Hockenheim Ring in Germany. I told them, in-gracious teenager that I was back then ... that I needed something that wouldn't roll over so easily. But they bought me the same VW sedan like the first one. And less then a year later I launched that one into and upside down into an irrigation cannel in England. I was lucky to survive that one! ;-( Funny, the BMW that I got next ... never left the road ... ;-)
In the past four weekends, I've done 7 AutoCross days, at least 100 runs in my SM WRX plus another 30 or so instructional runs in other peoples cars, plus passenger rides in other cars. I would say that I average at least 30 major inputs (corners, slaloms) per lap ... so that adds up to 3,900 on, and sometimes over, the limit maneuvers. That equals a lot of track time, minus the straight aways ... ;-)
In some of my rides with newbies ... I couldn't believe how little effort they put into their driving. They had NO IDEA how intense a flat out AX run could be ... until I got in their driver seat ... or they got into my car. Some of them got out shaking! :-)
I can imagine those drivers bad mouthing AX if they hadn't gotten that ride ... :-) ... and instead praising the "high speeds" found during a track day. LOL
In the past four weekends, I've done 7 AutoCross days, at least 100 runs in my SM WRX plus another 30 or so instructional runs in other peoples cars, plus passenger rides in other cars. I would say that I average at least 30 major inputs (corners, slaloms) per lap ... so that adds up to 3,900 on, and sometimes over, the limit maneuvers. That equals a lot of track time, minus the straight aways ... ;-)
In some of my rides with newbies ... I couldn't believe how little effort they put into their driving. They had NO IDEA how intense a flat out AX run could be ... until I got in their driver seat ... or they got into my car. Some of them got out shaking! :-)
I can imagine those drivers bad mouthing AX if they hadn't gotten that ride ... :-) ... and instead praising the "high speeds" found during a track day. LOL
| tcarter | 10-21-2004 10:41 AM |
If it makes you feel better I think there was something on the track. I watched the video several times and there looks to be something all over that corner. Not that the entire corner is covered, but more like spots of oil or something slick in several places in the corner. That would mean sometimes you would hit it and sometimes you wouldn't. It also means if you run through the corner a little harder then you might slid into it and for a split second lose grip and the rear would come around like that.
Here is my synopsis. I think you had a little too much steering input for a little too long. BUT.. that did not make you spin out. The oil or whatever on the track played the spin out part. Right at the end of the corner you still had a lot of steering input. The second your rear tires got on the slick stuff they had ZERO grip and your front had Full grip. That my friend, with your steering input brought you right around. If you notice your spin arc matched your sterring input at the second your rear end came around. The difference in tire sound is because the concrete patch ends and a little concrete patch was at the track out point. That is irrelevant. You hit something slick. So if you have any doubts about what you did or what you could have done. No worries. Once you started around there was nothing you could have done. Maybe if you were lucky you could have turned full steering lock right and mashed the gas and hoped for a 360, but that is not what your suppose to do when skidding. You did what your suppose to do.
Here is my synopsis. I think you had a little too much steering input for a little too long. BUT.. that did not make you spin out. The oil or whatever on the track played the spin out part. Right at the end of the corner you still had a lot of steering input. The second your rear tires got on the slick stuff they had ZERO grip and your front had Full grip. That my friend, with your steering input brought you right around. If you notice your spin arc matched your sterring input at the second your rear end came around. The difference in tire sound is because the concrete patch ends and a little concrete patch was at the track out point. That is irrelevant. You hit something slick. So if you have any doubts about what you did or what you could have done. No worries. Once you started around there was nothing you could have done. Maybe if you were lucky you could have turned full steering lock right and mashed the gas and hoped for a 360, but that is not what your suppose to do when skidding. You did what your suppose to do.
| briank | 10-25-2004 10:41 AM |
Months later my conclusion is the same as you just said. There was something on the track that helped send me into the spin and I didn't save it. A better driver could've.
Regarding Auto-X, its a different kind of rush. It more a 60 second test of the drivers reflexes not so much pusing the car to its very limit. I personally like track driving better. Lots of seat time, making small adjustments to improve your speed and perfecting your knowledge of a real race track that real race cars were on just a few days before. Legally going above 100 and taking turns as fast as you can handle.
I love autox too, but track driving is just 20-30 minutes of pure bliss per session you can't get doing auto-x.
Regarding Auto-X, its a different kind of rush. It more a 60 second test of the drivers reflexes not so much pusing the car to its very limit. I personally like track driving better. Lots of seat time, making small adjustments to improve your speed and perfecting your knowledge of a real race track that real race cars were on just a few days before. Legally going above 100 and taking turns as fast as you can handle.
I love autox too, but track driving is just 20-30 minutes of pure bliss per session you can't get doing auto-x.
| tcarter | 10-25-2004 10:57 AM |
[QUOTE=briank]Months later my conclusion is the same as you just said. There was something on the track that helped send me into the spin and I didn't save it. A better driver could've.
Regarding Auto-X, its a different kind of rush. It more a 60 second test of the drivers reflexes not so much pusing the car to its very limit. I personally like track driving better. Lots of seat time, making small adjustments to improve your speed and perfecting your knowledge of a real race track that real race cars were on just a few days before. Legally going above 100 and taking turns as fast as you can handle.
I love autox too, but track driving is just 20-30 minutes of pure bliss per session you can't get doing auto-x.[/QUOTE]
Could not have said it better myself. Don't quit track driving though. Just get you another daily driver or a dedicated track car. Dedicated track cars are even more fun, b/c you will push even harder and learn waay more than your daily driver. That is b/c your not quite as scared to mess up the track car as you are apt to be a little tender footed with your daily driver. Actually it is easier to stay out of trouble if your less timid. Now I'm not saying a first timer should go out there and drive balls to the wall, but you have had enough track days that if you had a car that was dedicated to track days you would get faster without the nerves involved.
Regarding Auto-X, its a different kind of rush. It more a 60 second test of the drivers reflexes not so much pusing the car to its very limit. I personally like track driving better. Lots of seat time, making small adjustments to improve your speed and perfecting your knowledge of a real race track that real race cars were on just a few days before. Legally going above 100 and taking turns as fast as you can handle.
I love autox too, but track driving is just 20-30 minutes of pure bliss per session you can't get doing auto-x.[/QUOTE]
Could not have said it better myself. Don't quit track driving though. Just get you another daily driver or a dedicated track car. Dedicated track cars are even more fun, b/c you will push even harder and learn waay more than your daily driver. That is b/c your not quite as scared to mess up the track car as you are apt to be a little tender footed with your daily driver. Actually it is easier to stay out of trouble if your less timid. Now I'm not saying a first timer should go out there and drive balls to the wall, but you have had enough track days that if you had a car that was dedicated to track days you would get faster without the nerves involved.
| makofoto | 10-26-2004 04:01 AM |
briank ... if you think you aren't pushing a car to it's limit's in Autocross ... imho ... you haven't really experienced on and over the limit autocrossing! ;-)
To me ... it's about inputs. At the end of Sept, beginning of Oct. ... I did 7 autocross days ... around 100 runs ... plus another 30 instructor runs with other peoples cars. Our courses average 30 major inputs per lap ... so I did about 3,900 inputs. How many of "your" laps would it take to achieve that ? Being Autocross ... I was able to drive with complete commitment on every maneuver - or at least I was trying to build up to that . THAT is thrilling in my book ...
How many of your minutes are driving down straight aways ...
Of course all of our racing is thrilling ... I just think that autocross can be more intense ... then doing track time with your daily driver, unless you confuse the angst of worrying about your car as excitment! LOL :-)
To me ... it's about inputs. At the end of Sept, beginning of Oct. ... I did 7 autocross days ... around 100 runs ... plus another 30 instructor runs with other peoples cars. Our courses average 30 major inputs per lap ... so I did about 3,900 inputs. How many of "your" laps would it take to achieve that ? Being Autocross ... I was able to drive with complete commitment on every maneuver - or at least I was trying to build up to that . THAT is thrilling in my book ...
How many of your minutes are driving down straight aways ...
Of course all of our racing is thrilling ... I just think that autocross can be more intense ... then doing track time with your daily driver, unless you confuse the angst of worrying about your car as excitment! LOL :-)
| feiron | 10-26-2004 04:55 AM |
glad you're fine... sorry for the car tho
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