| TimStevens | 06-15-2004 02:54 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JC_595[/i]
[B]I am used to racing bars. They are straight, thereby easy to tune by racer standards(sumtimes we aint too braight<spoken like a hillbilly>).[/B][/QUOTE]
It's the same principle, you're just dealing with angular flex rather than tortional :p ;)
[B]I am used to racing bars. They are straight, thereby easy to tune by racer standards(sumtimes we aint too braight<spoken like a hillbilly>).[/B][/QUOTE]
It's the same principle, you're just dealing with angular flex rather than tortional :p ;)
| JC_595 | 06-15-2004 03:21 PM |
I swear I do not believe it "lifts" the inside wheel. I know they are named "Sway" bars for a reason :p
Either I am not explaining myself correctly, I have grossly misunderstood my teachings.
I am not saying the bar only pushes down, nor am I saying that it pushes down with huge force or lifts that side of the car up.
So... maybe I am backwards with my sway bar logic? A heavier swaybar will twist less, therefore not allow the outside suspension to compress without also compressing the inside suspension?
Ohhhhhhhhhh:rolleyes: *****.
So, it effectively "sinks" the car. Hmmmm...
Dogonnit! Sorry. I am doubting myself, but I cant be completely wrong. I will do some research now....
Either I am not explaining myself correctly, I have grossly misunderstood my teachings.
I am not saying the bar only pushes down, nor am I saying that it pushes down with huge force or lifts that side of the car up.
So... maybe I am backwards with my sway bar logic? A heavier swaybar will twist less, therefore not allow the outside suspension to compress without also compressing the inside suspension?
Ohhhhhhhhhh:rolleyes: *****.
So, it effectively "sinks" the car. Hmmmm...
Dogonnit! Sorry. I am doubting myself, but I cant be completely wrong. I will do some research now....
| Chromer | 06-15-2004 03:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JC_595[/i]
[B]So... maybe I am backwards with my sway bar logic? A heavier swaybar will twist less, therefore not allow the outside suspension to compress without also compressing the inside suspension?
Ohhhhhhhhhh:rolleyes: *****.
So, it effectively "sinks" the car. Hmmmm...
[/B][/QUOTE]
Now you got it! :banana:
[B]So... maybe I am backwards with my sway bar logic? A heavier swaybar will twist less, therefore not allow the outside suspension to compress without also compressing the inside suspension?
Ohhhhhhhhhh:rolleyes: *****.
So, it effectively "sinks" the car. Hmmmm...
[/B][/QUOTE]
Now you got it! :banana:
| JC_595 | 06-15-2004 03:40 PM |
I found this while searching for info to reinflate my ego...
:)
[url]http://www.eng-tips.com/gviewthread.cfm/pid/800/qid/91420[/url]
There is sooooooo much more to proper setup than I could ever explain as full understanding is way over my head.
Suffice it to say, I will be re evaluating my understanding of suspension once again...
:)
JC
:)
[url]http://www.eng-tips.com/gviewthread.cfm/pid/800/qid/91420[/url]
There is sooooooo much more to proper setup than I could ever explain as full understanding is way over my head.
Suffice it to say, I will be re evaluating my understanding of suspension once again...
:)
JC
| cooleyjb | 06-15-2004 11:01 PM |
As for should the guy change his car and go slower. Yes he should. A large part of autocrossing is about controlling the car safely. If I was at the event I would have gone through the roof for the car being allowed to continue running the course let alone the event.
As for people replying to the fact that it won't affect me and my autocrossing you are wrong. If the guy did flip and hurt himself and or the itmes around the course (ie. anything owned by the company letting SCCA use the facilities) SCCA would have some liability issues. Those issues cost money. That money would most likely be paid for by the insurance premiums being raised to hold a race. So entry fees would go up etc etc.
Basically you must run a car that is safe at autocrossing and obviously this car was not.
As for people replying to the fact that it won't affect me and my autocrossing you are wrong. If the guy did flip and hurt himself and or the itmes around the course (ie. anything owned by the company letting SCCA use the facilities) SCCA would have some liability issues. Those issues cost money. That money would most likely be paid for by the insurance premiums being raised to hold a race. So entry fees would go up etc etc.
Basically you must run a car that is safe at autocrossing and obviously this car was not.
| nunyo | 06-16-2004 07:51 AM |
FWIW the full name of the suspension component is an anti-sway bar. It's designe to tie the inner and outer suspension together. Stiffer bars reduce body roll. They are also good for increasing the rate of weight transfer.
I'd wager that the Civic that was pulling two wheels off, had REALLY stiff bars, REALLY stiff springs, and REALLY sticky tires on a grippy surface.
I'd wager that the Civic that was pulling two wheels off, had REALLY stiff bars, REALLY stiff springs, and REALLY sticky tires on a grippy surface.
| Calamity Jesus | 06-16-2004 11:43 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cooleyjb[/i]
[B] As for people replying to the fact that it won't affect me and my autocrossing you are wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't notice anyone saying that. It's definitely a safety concern. I was just wondering what would be reccomended for him to adjust.
While the 2 wheel driving would be insanely dangerous for a novice, the driver in this video seems to be coping very well.. bringing the wheels back to the ground smoothly. Obviously, being on 2 wheels does him no favors since he can't brake, accelerate or expect his tires to last any amount of time on their edge.
I'm sure that if my car were to lift up on 2 wheels unexpectedly I would not be able to properly manage the 'landing' and end up flying off course potentially taking out some workers.
There are issues with cars that have limited suspension travel (too low.. bumpstop riders.. etc) that can hit their limit while cornering and the sudden stopping motion of the suspension relative to the chassis causes the chassis to essentially jump. This sudden transfer of weight can cause a car to hop up on two wheels rather quickly.. or lose grip just as quickly and slide off it's line. That doesn't appear to be the issue here. This car is lifting off the ground very smoothly after the suspension has been fully settled.
I'm with nunyo that this is an issue of REALLY stiff suspension and REALLY sticky tires & tarmac.
----
As for lifting the rear wheels... yes, that's standard fare for a modified FWD car.
[img]http://www.bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/jordanad/escort/liftleg_0.jpg[/img]
This is my own FSP autocross car. H&Rs and a massive 1" rear swaybar. The swaybar transfers weight to the outside rear wheel.. which in counter-effect keeps more weight on the inside front wheel. This keeps both front wheels firmly planted on the ground and makes a dramatic difference in the way the car handles going through and coming out of tight corners.
I currently have the rear bar removed because it's so stiff it's caused some stress cracks where it connects to my rear control arms (a flaw with the Mazda chassis), and I've already broken one control arm in half.
-Anyway, with the rear swaybar removed entirely (and even with the stock bar in place) I can easily spin my inside front tire in 1st and 2nd gear (this is with 88hp/105lb-ft and tall gearing) and the car understeers at 7/10ths. There is more roll.. but with the H&Rs, it's still negligible.
-With the bar installed the inside front tire will stick through a 1st gear launch with some steering angle dialed in... something that would smoke a tire with a stock setup. Rolling on the gas from some steady state hard cornering will spin the inside tire.. but that's true of even an AWD car (as some of you know).
(I'm not a 'good' autocross driver, so I don't win any trophies.. before anyone asks.)
[B] As for people replying to the fact that it won't affect me and my autocrossing you are wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't notice anyone saying that. It's definitely a safety concern. I was just wondering what would be reccomended for him to adjust.
While the 2 wheel driving would be insanely dangerous for a novice, the driver in this video seems to be coping very well.. bringing the wheels back to the ground smoothly. Obviously, being on 2 wheels does him no favors since he can't brake, accelerate or expect his tires to last any amount of time on their edge.
I'm sure that if my car were to lift up on 2 wheels unexpectedly I would not be able to properly manage the 'landing' and end up flying off course potentially taking out some workers.
There are issues with cars that have limited suspension travel (too low.. bumpstop riders.. etc) that can hit their limit while cornering and the sudden stopping motion of the suspension relative to the chassis causes the chassis to essentially jump. This sudden transfer of weight can cause a car to hop up on two wheels rather quickly.. or lose grip just as quickly and slide off it's line. That doesn't appear to be the issue here. This car is lifting off the ground very smoothly after the suspension has been fully settled.
I'm with nunyo that this is an issue of REALLY stiff suspension and REALLY sticky tires & tarmac.
----
As for lifting the rear wheels... yes, that's standard fare for a modified FWD car.
[img]http://www.bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/jordanad/escort/liftleg_0.jpg[/img]
This is my own FSP autocross car. H&Rs and a massive 1" rear swaybar. The swaybar transfers weight to the outside rear wheel.. which in counter-effect keeps more weight on the inside front wheel. This keeps both front wheels firmly planted on the ground and makes a dramatic difference in the way the car handles going through and coming out of tight corners.
I currently have the rear bar removed because it's so stiff it's caused some stress cracks where it connects to my rear control arms (a flaw with the Mazda chassis), and I've already broken one control arm in half.
-Anyway, with the rear swaybar removed entirely (and even with the stock bar in place) I can easily spin my inside front tire in 1st and 2nd gear (this is with 88hp/105lb-ft and tall gearing) and the car understeers at 7/10ths. There is more roll.. but with the H&Rs, it's still negligible.
-With the bar installed the inside front tire will stick through a 1st gear launch with some steering angle dialed in... something that would smoke a tire with a stock setup. Rolling on the gas from some steady state hard cornering will spin the inside tire.. but that's true of even an AWD car (as some of you know).
(I'm not a 'good' autocross driver, so I don't win any trophies.. before anyone asks.)
| SlideWRX | 06-16-2004 12:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by maaw[/i]
[B] So my buddies a car nut, has a 2000 ford explorer sport suv, its got a 100,000 miles on it and is beat to ****. I told him about auto-x and he wants to mob. Would it be a bad idea to do this? Has anyone ever taken a suv to auto-x and not rolled it? [/B][/QUOTE]
I learned to Auto-X in a Chevy Tahoe, instructed by SCCA teachers. The only concern I would have for the Explorer would be worn shocks - a slalom might cause issues.
[B] So my buddies a car nut, has a 2000 ford explorer sport suv, its got a 100,000 miles on it and is beat to ****. I told him about auto-x and he wants to mob. Would it be a bad idea to do this? Has anyone ever taken a suv to auto-x and not rolled it? [/B][/QUOTE]
I learned to Auto-X in a Chevy Tahoe, instructed by SCCA teachers. The only concern I would have for the Explorer would be worn shocks - a slalom might cause issues.
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