| Sean | 06-03-2004 06:08 PM |
2nd gear synchro grind in the rally car. Is there a fluid that will alleviate this?
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[i]Firstly, I've already done my obligatory searches in the transmission forum and have found some tasty tidbits of info. ;) My concern is that the answers I've found there are mostly street biased and don't take high temperature into consideration.[/i]
[b]Symptom:[/b]
For the first 5 or 10 miles after a cold start, the transmission in the MY96 Impreza 2.2 L shifts like butter. Totally smooth. Once she warms up, however, she grinds going into 2nd gear on almost every single upshift. If I revmatch into 2nd on a downshift, it's usually smooth. This started happening during an ice race this Winter, and only 2nd gear is effected. There's no slipping and I'm not worried about the gears themselves. I haven't put many miles on her since she started grinding.
[b]Dilemma:[/b]
Maine Forest is coming up quick, and I don't have the cash to source a replacement tranny or do a rebuild. It's on the list for Great North Woods or Maine Forest Winter.
[b]Question:[/b]
I know the synchros need to be replaced, but I don't want to drop the tranny until it's time for a new clutch. Is there a fluid in the interim I can use to alleviate the grinding? Or, should I not even worry about the grinding? After all, how many times will I be upshifting to 2nd in Maine? :lol:
The general consensus I've found in the transmission forum is to switch over to GM Synchromesh or one of its many clones (Penzoil, Quaker State, etc.). It seems that it will probably solve my grinding problem, but I don't know how it will hold up to the rigors and temperatures of rally.
Anyone have any other suggestions? Motul? Shockproof? My primary concern is to alleviate the grinding until I can do a rebuild.
[i]Oh, and I'll definitely bump this on Monday after STPR as everyone comes home with grinding trannys...[/i] :devil:
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[b]Symptom:[/b]
For the first 5 or 10 miles after a cold start, the transmission in the MY96 Impreza 2.2 L shifts like butter. Totally smooth. Once she warms up, however, she grinds going into 2nd gear on almost every single upshift. If I revmatch into 2nd on a downshift, it's usually smooth. This started happening during an ice race this Winter, and only 2nd gear is effected. There's no slipping and I'm not worried about the gears themselves. I haven't put many miles on her since she started grinding.
[b]Dilemma:[/b]
Maine Forest is coming up quick, and I don't have the cash to source a replacement tranny or do a rebuild. It's on the list for Great North Woods or Maine Forest Winter.
[b]Question:[/b]
I know the synchros need to be replaced, but I don't want to drop the tranny until it's time for a new clutch. Is there a fluid in the interim I can use to alleviate the grinding? Or, should I not even worry about the grinding? After all, how many times will I be upshifting to 2nd in Maine? :lol:
The general consensus I've found in the transmission forum is to switch over to GM Synchromesh or one of its many clones (Penzoil, Quaker State, etc.). It seems that it will probably solve my grinding problem, but I don't know how it will hold up to the rigors and temperatures of rally.
Anyone have any other suggestions? Motul? Shockproof? My primary concern is to alleviate the grinding until I can do a rebuild.
[i]Oh, and I'll definitely bump this on Monday after STPR as everyone comes home with grinding trannys...[/i] :devil:
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| rob | 06-03-2004 06:29 PM |
Try ATF, as in regular Automatic Transmission Fluid. It literally worked wonders in my GT4 tranny. I was ready to tear it down for a rebuild until a good source passed the tip.
BTW, Redline made my shifting worse.
BTW, Redline made my shifting worse.
| trhoppe | 06-03-2004 07:24 PM |
Shockproof.
Redline specifically said not to use it in a "street" car as its made for high temperature applications rather then regular street driving. Its made to work RIGHT at higher temps rather then ambient temps. Get the thicker one of the three viscositys.
-Tom
Redline specifically said not to use it in a "street" car as its made for high temperature applications rather then regular street driving. Its made to work RIGHT at higher temps rather then ambient temps. Get the thicker one of the three viscositys.
-Tom
| 8Complex | 06-03-2004 08:00 PM |
I hated Redline when I ran it, Royal Purple was pretty good for a few months, then wore in a bit, but I still think it's better then the Mobil 1 I am running right now. I have heard people swear up and down that running 20W50 Amsoil motor oil (yes, motor oil) works wonders. I know someone that has been running it like 40-50k now and still no complaints, and he beats the crap out of the car every day for the last 98k miles.
I've never tried smurf piss (shockproof), but I've heard that people like it... though they usually mix it with another fluid, not use it straight. DSM guys do this all the time.
I've never tried smurf piss (shockproof), but I've heard that people like it... though they usually mix it with another fluid, not use it straight. DSM guys do this all the time.
| Fitz | 06-03-2004 09:12 PM |
Whichever fluid you run... redline... royal purple.. kayro syrup... just make sure it's thicker in visosity than what you're running. No need to go to 90 weight mind you... but something a bit more sluggish will deal with the heat better in this case.
Fitz
Fitz
| Hondaslayer | 06-03-2004 09:30 PM |
I'm currently running Royal Purple, it sucks.
Can't wait to go back to NEO.
Can't wait to go back to NEO.
| casualsurfer | 06-03-2004 09:37 PM |
GM Synchromesh.
| Sean | 06-03-2004 09:47 PM |
Thanks for the suggestions!
I was looking at GM Synchromesh, but the Penzoil site says it's only rated to 150� F. Will that be an issue out on stage?
Has anyone tried Lucas? The package says to pour in a quart and top the tranny off with 10W30.
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I was looking at GM Synchromesh, but the Penzoil site says it's only rated to 150� F. Will that be an issue out on stage?
Has anyone tried Lucas? The package says to pour in a quart and top the tranny off with 10W30.
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| Hondaslayer | 06-03-2004 09:48 PM |
NEO
| zoomfactor | 06-04-2004 08:56 AM |
[QUOTE]Has anyone tried Lucas? [/QUOTE]
I've added about a quart of the Lucas to the standard Subaru GL-5 junk. Most of the year down here in FL ambient tyemps are in the mid-80's and now we are already seeing low-90's. I was getting this "thin" feeling in the gearbox. When you would move the shifter it felt like there was water in there instead of oil. The Lucas seems to make the oil "stick" to the gears better -- even under pretty extreme conditions.
Don't know if it would help the 1-2 grind:confused:
I've added about a quart of the Lucas to the standard Subaru GL-5 junk. Most of the year down here in FL ambient tyemps are in the mid-80's and now we are already seeing low-90's. I was getting this "thin" feeling in the gearbox. When you would move the shifter it felt like there was water in there instead of oil. The Lucas seems to make the oil "stick" to the gears better -- even under pretty extreme conditions.
Don't know if it would help the 1-2 grind:confused:
| Alleggerita | 06-04-2004 09:29 AM |
BG syncro shift. I believe that there is a synthetic version also but that may not be preferable.
| rob | 06-04-2004 01:45 PM |
I'm telling you, regular Dex 3 ATF. It's cheap, available everywhere and it works.
In my Celica all-trac I could not upshift to 4th or up/downshift into 2nd without grinding. These problems were there when I bought the car at 55k miles and continually worsened over time. When I switched to redline 75-90NS (yes it's that is the correct version for GL-5 trannies), it got noticably worse.
I was planning on a box rebuild (a MAJOR hastle for that car) because it was that bad. Then I followed the recommendation from a couple old-school GT4 guys and put in regualr ATF, and <POOF> the problems went away. It was literally that drastic of an effect. Not only did it solve all the shifting problems on the street, it also eliminated it during rally-x abuse (lots of quick 1-2 shifts). Even my wife noticed the change as a dramatic improvement and she normally doesn't notice anything I do to the cars. :)
There is still the question about long term problems with using it, but hey I figured that I was already planning a rebuild, so if what did I have to loose. I am actually not that worried about it because of the strict requirements that ATF has to meet and the fact that several new cars come with ATF in their manual boxes (new corvette being one of them...so I am told). Also the other All-trac guys that are using have had it in their cars for a while with absolutely no problems.
I have no direct experience with the synchroshift stuff, but I am wondering if anybody that is recommending it here does either. My direct experience is that ATF cleared up the same problems you have.
Hope this helps.
-Rob
In my Celica all-trac I could not upshift to 4th or up/downshift into 2nd without grinding. These problems were there when I bought the car at 55k miles and continually worsened over time. When I switched to redline 75-90NS (yes it's that is the correct version for GL-5 trannies), it got noticably worse.
I was planning on a box rebuild (a MAJOR hastle for that car) because it was that bad. Then I followed the recommendation from a couple old-school GT4 guys and put in regualr ATF, and <POOF> the problems went away. It was literally that drastic of an effect. Not only did it solve all the shifting problems on the street, it also eliminated it during rally-x abuse (lots of quick 1-2 shifts). Even my wife noticed the change as a dramatic improvement and she normally doesn't notice anything I do to the cars. :)
There is still the question about long term problems with using it, but hey I figured that I was already planning a rebuild, so if what did I have to loose. I am actually not that worried about it because of the strict requirements that ATF has to meet and the fact that several new cars come with ATF in their manual boxes (new corvette being one of them...so I am told). Also the other All-trac guys that are using have had it in their cars for a while with absolutely no problems.
I have no direct experience with the synchroshift stuff, but I am wondering if anybody that is recommending it here does either. My direct experience is that ATF cleared up the same problems you have.
Hope this helps.
-Rob
| Sean | 06-04-2004 02:29 PM |
Hot. Then ATF it is because it's cheap and I have an ample supply of it since my navigator did a 4EAT to 5MT converstion on his WRX and left behind all of his old supplies. ;) Besides, if ATF is good enough for the Neon 5MT... ;)
To appease my own curiosity, what is the viscosity equivalent of ATF? Like, would it be considered an 85? 90? Either way, if it doesn't work out, it's not like I can't just drain it and refill with some of the other expensive goop recommended in this thread.
[b]Edit:[/b] Besides, Lucas recommends mixing their Transmission Fix goop and ATF in small manual racing trannys. Zoot.
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To appease my own curiosity, what is the viscosity equivalent of ATF? Like, would it be considered an 85? 90? Either way, if it doesn't work out, it's not like I can't just drain it and refill with some of the other expensive goop recommended in this thread.
[b]Edit:[/b] Besides, Lucas recommends mixing their Transmission Fix goop and ATF in small manual racing trannys. Zoot.
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| zoomfactor | 06-04-2004 02:41 PM |
Tell us how it goes...
| 8Complex | 06-04-2004 04:02 PM |
I don't know about ATF, but there is a comparison between gear oil and engine oil on this page --> [url]http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html[/url]
| rob | 06-04-2004 04:43 PM |
Oh, and read this about Lucas additive...
[url]http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm[/url]
| zzyzx | 06-04-2004 05:08 PM |
I've used Redline Shockproof for years with great success. My car has taken a beating on the race track, at the 1/4 mi and in autox and when I pulled the tranny apart a month ago, the gears were all in great shape. Synchros have never been a problem.
I would suggest Shockproof Lightweight (smurf piss bluegreen) for your application. I used a mixture of this and the Superlight (baby barf yellow) before, but recently switched entirely to Lightweight.
- Steve
I would suggest Shockproof Lightweight (smurf piss bluegreen) for your application. I used a mixture of this and the Superlight (baby barf yellow) before, but recently switched entirely to Lightweight.
- Steve
| dch | 06-05-2004 12:44 AM |
I run Mobil1 75W90 in my syncro boxes. Dunno if it'd help with a roached 2nd though... My experience with Subaru gearboxes is as follows:
If they're perfect when you start the event there's a chance you'll have a problem. If there's [b]anything[/b] funky with the gearbox when you start the event, you [b]will[/b] have a problem.
I hate standing in the woods for hours waiting for my crew. I'd beg, borrow or steal some parts and fix it before running it. Chat with Clint in the Subaru parts truck at STPR if you're going there. They have good deals on parts at the events. Look at it this way- You're going to spend a lot of money to enter MFR. Do you want to risk throwing it all away on stage 1 because you didn't fix an issue you were going to fix anyway at a later time? If ya don't fix it, I'd just plan on at the very best not having 2nd gear and at the very worst having something come apart and take out the rest of the gearbox because you tried to use the 2nd gear that you didn't have. Call me a pessimist, but usually for me everything that can go wrong does, and so do some of the things that can't! :D
Hell if it's just a matter of timing before you can afford the fix, since you're one of the helpful CrewMonkeys of aught three, I'll lend you the money if you swear to pay it back in beer...
Cheers,
-Doug
#88 WRX STi
[IMG]http://www.nbs-inc.com/Dch/IMG_1929.jpg[/IMG]
If they're perfect when you start the event there's a chance you'll have a problem. If there's [b]anything[/b] funky with the gearbox when you start the event, you [b]will[/b] have a problem.
I hate standing in the woods for hours waiting for my crew. I'd beg, borrow or steal some parts and fix it before running it. Chat with Clint in the Subaru parts truck at STPR if you're going there. They have good deals on parts at the events. Look at it this way- You're going to spend a lot of money to enter MFR. Do you want to risk throwing it all away on stage 1 because you didn't fix an issue you were going to fix anyway at a later time? If ya don't fix it, I'd just plan on at the very best not having 2nd gear and at the very worst having something come apart and take out the rest of the gearbox because you tried to use the 2nd gear that you didn't have. Call me a pessimist, but usually for me everything that can go wrong does, and so do some of the things that can't! :D
Hell if it's just a matter of timing before you can afford the fix, since you're one of the helpful CrewMonkeys of aught three, I'll lend you the money if you swear to pay it back in beer...
Cheers,
-Doug
#88 WRX STi
[IMG]http://www.nbs-inc.com/Dch/IMG_1929.jpg[/IMG]
| Sean | 06-06-2004 11:41 PM |
Doug, you rule. Really. I've e-mailed you offline regarding your offer. Andrew and John still talk about the great experience they had crewing for you, and working with the Rally America girls on photos and results was an awesome experience for Kelly and myself. This is a prime example of how close-knit the rally community is.
If Andrew wasn't my navigator and John wasn't on my crew, I'm sure they'd be right there beside you again this year. :)
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If Andrew wasn't my navigator and John wasn't on my crew, I'm sure they'd be right there beside you again this year. :)
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| Sean | 06-06-2004 11:44 PM |
Next, a transmission update! I put Dex III ATF into the tranny on Saturday and put about 50 miles on the car. The second gear grind is still there, but it grinds less. Every other gear feels like a brand new tranny. So, it didn't totally solve the problem, but it definitely helped. :) My drive up to Claremont to get logbooked will be much less worrysome.
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| dch | 06-07-2004 12:49 AM |
Right you are, Ken! Indeed.
-Doug
-Doug
| greg donovan | 06-07-2004 01:12 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sean[/i]
[B] Next, a transmission update! I put Dex III ATF into the tranny on Saturday and put about 50 miles on the car. The second gear grind is still there, but it grinds less. Every other gear feels like a brand new tranny. So, it didn't totally solve the problem, but it definitely helped. :) My drive up to Claremont to get logbooked will be much less worrysome.
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are there any negative points to using this fluid? how is it when its cold? like ND cold.
OT:
doug either you cant sleep or are someplace many time zones away. where are you? assuming you can say.
[B] Next, a transmission update! I put Dex III ATF into the tranny on Saturday and put about 50 miles on the car. The second gear grind is still there, but it grinds less. Every other gear feels like a brand new tranny. So, it didn't totally solve the problem, but it definitely helped. :) My drive up to Claremont to get logbooked will be much less worrysome.
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are there any negative points to using this fluid? how is it when its cold? like ND cold.
OT:
doug either you cant sleep or are someplace many time zones away. where are you? assuming you can say.
| Sean | 06-07-2004 02:14 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by greg donovan[/i]
[B] are there any negative points to using this fluid? how is it when its cold? like ND cold.[/B][/QUOTE]
I have no idea, and someone else will have to field that question. This was simply a last ditch effort on my part to temporarily reduce grinding until I do a rebuild.
On the other hand, some Corvettes and Neons come with ATF in their manual transmissions from the factory. Google for ATF and manual transmissions and you'll find many references.
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[B] are there any negative points to using this fluid? how is it when its cold? like ND cold.[/B][/QUOTE]
I have no idea, and someone else will have to field that question. This was simply a last ditch effort on my part to temporarily reduce grinding until I do a rebuild.
On the other hand, some Corvettes and Neons come with ATF in their manual transmissions from the factory. Google for ATF and manual transmissions and you'll find many references.
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| Ryan | 06-07-2004 07:43 AM |
Motul Gear 300 for me. Car would grind going into 2nd gear (downshift) on track, this seems to have solved the problem but I've only got one track day on the new fluid so far.
| rallynutdon | 06-07-2004 09:17 AM |
Older Volvos ran ATF in their 4 speed from the factory. I would think ATF would be thinner than gear oil and would make the problem worse. When I started rallying my Impreza, I put synthetic in and the trans lasted 1 event until all the syncros started acting up. I drained it and put regular gear oil in but it was too late. I had to redo all the syncros. Syncros work on the principle of friction which necessitates not too thin an oil.
| njpreppy | 06-07-2004 12:00 PM |
I had problems going from 3rd to 4th with my stock tranny fluid. I switched to Castrol Syntec and the 3rd to 4th went away....for a time. Now under heavy acceleration I can barely (with grind) get into 4th. Also, starting from a stop, first and reverse grind in unless I go into 2nd before going into 1st or reverse. I'm trying to find a new tranny fluid to alleviate this but there are so many opinions. I am not going to get synthetic again because Rallispec told me not to (too slippery I believe they said, in a nutshell).
The ATF sounds interesting. I really need that 3rd to 4th since I have some track days coming up. Ideas?
-Chris
The ATF sounds interesting. I really need that 3rd to 4th since I have some track days coming up. Ideas?
-Chris
| paultg | 06-07-2004 12:45 PM |
Sean,
Your initial problem sounds just like the problem I was having with my 2001 Impreza L. It only had 18K miles on it though, and my gear was going from 2nd to 3rd, and sometimes in reverse. It would be fine for the first portion of my drive every morning. Then, after 20-30 miles of highway travel it would grind.
I just had the car in for warranty work two weeks ago. They rebuilt the entire tranny. All new gear set and all new syncros. The tech said the problem was the syncro, but that he would replace everything since the tranny was apart.
Just an Fyi.
Paul G.
Your initial problem sounds just like the problem I was having with my 2001 Impreza L. It only had 18K miles on it though, and my gear was going from 2nd to 3rd, and sometimes in reverse. It would be fine for the first portion of my drive every morning. Then, after 20-30 miles of highway travel it would grind.
I just had the car in for warranty work two weeks ago. They rebuilt the entire tranny. All new gear set and all new syncros. The tech said the problem was the syncro, but that he would replace everything since the tranny was apart.
Just an Fyi.
Paul G.
| Sean | 06-07-2004 01:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg[/i]
[B]Just an Fyi.[/B][/QUOTE]
Hot. Thanks. Yeah, I'm almost positive it's just the synchros. When I drained the tranny there was a fine dusty mud of metal filings stuck to the magnet with only a few large specks. Other than that, the fluid was clean.
On the other hand, I drove the rally car to work today to get more miles on the fluid. I didn't grind once during the 30 mile commute, but that's probably because I hit every single revmatch perfectly. ;)
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[B]Just an Fyi.[/B][/QUOTE]
Hot. Thanks. Yeah, I'm almost positive it's just the synchros. When I drained the tranny there was a fine dusty mud of metal filings stuck to the magnet with only a few large specks. Other than that, the fluid was clean.
On the other hand, I drove the rally car to work today to get more miles on the fluid. I didn't grind once during the 30 mile commute, but that's probably because I hit every single revmatch perfectly. ;)
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| paultg | 06-07-2004 01:06 PM |
Cool. Good luck. I go so fast you only need 3rd gear and up and you'll be all set. :)
Paul G.
(worried his Impreza won't have a transmission in the morning)
Paul G.
(worried his Impreza won't have a transmission in the morning)
| mav1c | 06-07-2004 01:59 PM |
This is just me experience, but it seems to be pretty similar to your situation (but I know you'll shift a LOT more in a rally). I was grinding the 3rd->4th synchro with "regular" Coastal 75W90 GL-5 gear oil. I switched to Redline MT-90 (recommended on Cobbs site), and just ran the car at a track day this past Friday without one grind the whole day. This was during 5 20 minute sessions. Probably about 40 hard, high RPM 3rd->4th shifts per session. So it seems that this oil has solved my grinding problems....for now.
| Kha0S | 06-07-2004 04:26 PM |
dch --
You, sir, are awesome.
Stopped by the Rally America truck to ask them where you were, and saw your old door (yow!).
You'd better be at Maine! :D
/Andrew
You, sir, are awesome.
Stopped by the Rally America truck to ask them where you were, and saw your old door (yow!).
You'd better be at Maine! :D
/Andrew
| superg | 06-07-2004 04:42 PM |
Subaru Extra S gear oil
�
�
Superg
| Sean | 06-07-2004 11:12 PM |
OK, 300 more miles went on the car today, and it didn't grind a single time! Looks like the tranny is now safe to drive on the street, but I'm still doing a rebuild before Maine Forest.
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| rob | 06-08-2004 09:51 AM |
Just for comparison, can you guess how many grinds you would have had in that 300 mile stretch before the ATF fluid swap?
It would be interesteding to show it could hold the rigors of a full rally event. But I understand if you don't want to be the person to prove it :)
-Rob
It would be interesteding to show it could hold the rigors of a full rally event. But I understand if you don't want to be the person to prove it :)
-Rob
| Sean | 06-08-2004 11:33 AM |
Before ATF, no matter how well I revmatched, [b]every[/b] 1st to 2nd shift would be chunky and [b]most[/b] 1st to 2nd shifts would grind.
During the first 50 miles with ATF, a couple 1st to 2nd shifts resulted in a grind, but that was it. Shifting had gotten slightly smoother on all gears.
After 100 miles with ATF, every single shift is now smooth as butter and I haven't had it grind once. The rest of the gears feel great.
Realize, I'm [b]not[/b] pushing the car in any way. This is standard mixed street and highway driving. 1st gear to 3k or 4k RPM, clutch in, revmatch, ease back into 2nd, let the gate give me resistance, feel the synchros spin, let 2nd suck the stick in, clutch out. Overall, shifting from 1st to 2nd probably takes a second and a half to two seconds. Before ATF, it was grinding the minute I touched the gate going into 2nd.
Will I trust ATF to get me through Maine Forest? No. Will I run with ATF at Maine Forest if we can't get the transmission rebuilt? Yes. Will I drive conservatively and just write it off as a $650 shakedown? You betcha.
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During the first 50 miles with ATF, a couple 1st to 2nd shifts resulted in a grind, but that was it. Shifting had gotten slightly smoother on all gears.
After 100 miles with ATF, every single shift is now smooth as butter and I haven't had it grind once. The rest of the gears feel great.
Realize, I'm [b]not[/b] pushing the car in any way. This is standard mixed street and highway driving. 1st gear to 3k or 4k RPM, clutch in, revmatch, ease back into 2nd, let the gate give me resistance, feel the synchros spin, let 2nd suck the stick in, clutch out. Overall, shifting from 1st to 2nd probably takes a second and a half to two seconds. Before ATF, it was grinding the minute I touched the gate going into 2nd.
Will I trust ATF to get me through Maine Forest? No. Will I run with ATF at Maine Forest if we can't get the transmission rebuilt? Yes. Will I drive conservatively and just write it off as a $650 shakedown? You betcha.
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| paultg | 06-08-2004 12:35 PM |
With my problem, it would only happen at or above 3K rpms, which I thought was strange, plus the fact the car had to warm up. *shrug*
Paul G.
Paul G.
| rallynutdon | 06-08-2004 12:59 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg [/i]
[B]With my problem, it would only happen at or above 3K rpms, which I thought was strange, plus the fact the car had to warm up. *shrug*
Paul G. [/B][/QUOTE]
Warm up and higher RPM makes perfect sense. Oil gets thinner when it gets hot, it's thicker when it's cold (room temperature). Syncros work on friction. Not enough friction when the oil get too thin/hot.
[B]With my problem, it would only happen at or above 3K rpms, which I thought was strange, plus the fact the car had to warm up. *shrug*
Paul G. [/B][/QUOTE]
Warm up and higher RPM makes perfect sense. Oil gets thinner when it gets hot, it's thicker when it's cold (room temperature). Syncros work on friction. Not enough friction when the oil get too thin/hot.
| makofoto | 06-08-2004 02:25 PM |
You want Redline MT-90 ... a higher friction MT oil ... which is necessary to give the synchros the extra amount of friction needed to do their thing. Synthetics are just the opposite ... too slick to let the synchros bite. You can use 100% for competition use ... I now use 1/3rd MT-90 and 2/3rd oem MT oil for street use.
Cobb recommends it ... check their site
Cobb recommends it ... check their site
| rob | 06-08-2004 02:59 PM |
Just so you know, MT-90 is rated GL-4 and Subaru specs say to use GL-5. I have tried to get an equivalancy rating for ATF to no avail.
-Rob
-Rob
| rob | 06-08-2004 03:05 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sean[/i]
[B] Before ATF, no matter how well I revmatched, [b]every[/b] 1st to 2nd shift would be chunky and [b]most[/b] 1st to 2nd shifts would grind.
During the first 50 miles with ATF, a couple 1st to 2nd shifts resulted in a grind, but that was it. Shifting had gotten slightly smoother on all gears.
After 100 miles with ATF, every single shift is now smooth as butter and I haven't had it grind once. The rest of the gears feel great.
Realize, I'm [b]not[/b] pushing the car in any way. This is standard mixed street and highway driving. 1st gear to 3k or 4k RPM, clutch in, revmatch, ease back into 2nd, let the gate give me resistance, feel the synchros spin, let 2nd suck the stick in, clutch out. Overall, shifting from 1st to 2nd probably takes a second and a half to two seconds. Before ATF, it was grinding the minute I touched the gate going into 2nd.
Will I trust ATF to get me through Maine Forest? No. Will I run with ATF at Maine Forest if we can't get the transmission rebuilt? Yes. Will I drive conservatively and just write it off as a $650 shakedown? You betcha.
[/QUOTE]
Excellent. I'm glad you are having the same positive experience I did. I am kind of hoping you can't get the tranny rebuilt in time so you have to try it out at the event... :devil:
[B] Before ATF, no matter how well I revmatched, [b]every[/b] 1st to 2nd shift would be chunky and [b]most[/b] 1st to 2nd shifts would grind.
During the first 50 miles with ATF, a couple 1st to 2nd shifts resulted in a grind, but that was it. Shifting had gotten slightly smoother on all gears.
After 100 miles with ATF, every single shift is now smooth as butter and I haven't had it grind once. The rest of the gears feel great.
Realize, I'm [b]not[/b] pushing the car in any way. This is standard mixed street and highway driving. 1st gear to 3k or 4k RPM, clutch in, revmatch, ease back into 2nd, let the gate give me resistance, feel the synchros spin, let 2nd suck the stick in, clutch out. Overall, shifting from 1st to 2nd probably takes a second and a half to two seconds. Before ATF, it was grinding the minute I touched the gate going into 2nd.
Will I trust ATF to get me through Maine Forest? No. Will I run with ATF at Maine Forest if we can't get the transmission rebuilt? Yes. Will I drive conservatively and just write it off as a $650 shakedown? You betcha.
[/QUOTE]
Excellent. I'm glad you are having the same positive experience I did. I am kind of hoping you can't get the tranny rebuilt in time so you have to try it out at the event... :devil:
| njpreppy | 06-08-2004 03:46 PM |
Subaru Extra S Gear Oil...what is the part number? I went to the dealership and they had no clue what I was talking about. THey then proceeded to call Subaru but they could not find the part number either...any clues?
-Chris
-Chris
| drees | 06-08-2004 04:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rob [/i]
[B]Just so you know, MT-90 is rated GL-4 and Subaru specs say to use GL-5. I have tried to get an equivalancy rating for ATF to no avail.[/B][/QUOTE] I have heard that a Synthetic GL-4 (such as MT-90) can handle EP protection as well as most dino GL-5s, so its usually OK to use a synthetic GL-4 in a tranny where any old GL-5 is recommended. To play it safer, you can mix GL-4 with GL-5 as makofoto suggested to improve synchro action while still getting some of the extra EP protection a GL-5 oil will provide. If ATF met GL-4 or GL-5 specs, the manufacturer would most likely say so. For example, Redline's Synthetic D4 ATF also meets GL-4 specs.
BTW, ATF is usually much thinner than your typical xW90 tranny or gear fluid, so all those theories about how the old gear oil was thinning out under the heat and getting too slippery are bunk. ;) ATF is usually about as thin as RedLine's MTL or a xW80 gear oil, sometimes thinner!
[B]Just so you know, MT-90 is rated GL-4 and Subaru specs say to use GL-5. I have tried to get an equivalancy rating for ATF to no avail.[/B][/QUOTE] I have heard that a Synthetic GL-4 (such as MT-90) can handle EP protection as well as most dino GL-5s, so its usually OK to use a synthetic GL-4 in a tranny where any old GL-5 is recommended. To play it safer, you can mix GL-4 with GL-5 as makofoto suggested to improve synchro action while still getting some of the extra EP protection a GL-5 oil will provide. If ATF met GL-4 or GL-5 specs, the manufacturer would most likely say so. For example, Redline's Synthetic D4 ATF also meets GL-4 specs.
BTW, ATF is usually much thinner than your typical xW90 tranny or gear fluid, so all those theories about how the old gear oil was thinning out under the heat and getting too slippery are bunk. ;) ATF is usually about as thin as RedLine's MTL or a xW80 gear oil, sometimes thinner!
| gravel | 06-08-2004 04:57 PM |
I believe the Gear Oil Extra S 201 is K0323AA093 and the regular Gear Oil Extra 75/90 is K0324F0091. Both of these part numbers are for 20 quarts.
| paultg | 06-08-2004 05:54 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallynutdon [/i]
[B]Warm up and higher RPM makes perfect sense. Oil gets thinner when it gets hot, it's thicker when it's cold (room temperature). Syncros work on friction. Not enough friction when the oil get too thin/hot. [/B][/QUOTE]
I know, but the RMP thing seemed strange. You would think once things warmed up, no matter what the RPM a bad syncro would grind.
I also think what you typed is backwards. Syncros work better with less friction. The thinner/hotter the fluid and transmission, the more friction is present, the more grind you get. With these alternate quick fix fluids they are eliminating friction by not thinning out as much.
Paul G.
[B]Warm up and higher RPM makes perfect sense. Oil gets thinner when it gets hot, it's thicker when it's cold (room temperature). Syncros work on friction. Not enough friction when the oil get too thin/hot. [/B][/QUOTE]
I know, but the RMP thing seemed strange. You would think once things warmed up, no matter what the RPM a bad syncro would grind.
I also think what you typed is backwards. Syncros work better with less friction. The thinner/hotter the fluid and transmission, the more friction is present, the more grind you get. With these alternate quick fix fluids they are eliminating friction by not thinning out as much.
Paul G.
| makofoto | 06-08-2004 05:58 PM |
Synchros NEED friction ... what makes you think the opposite ? That is why regular synthetics don't work well in gear boxes ...
| njpreppy | 06-08-2004 08:33 PM |
gravel: thanks a lot. I'll try it out tomorrow and see if they can find it.
-Chris
-Chris
| gravel | 06-08-2004 09:02 PM |
njpreppy: no prob man - try with exeter in NH - [url]www.subaruparts.com[/url]
| Sean | 06-09-2004 12:02 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gravel[/i]
[B] njpreppy: no prob man - try with exeter in NH - [url]www.subaruparts.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
That Web site isn't Exeter. Exeter is at [url]www.subaruwrxparts.com[/url] and the Internet desk is run by North Ursalia, one of our local friendly Supermods. :)
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[B] njpreppy: no prob man - try with exeter in NH - [url]www.subaruparts.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
That Web site isn't Exeter. Exeter is at [url]www.subaruwrxparts.com[/url] and the Internet desk is run by North Ursalia, one of our local friendly Supermods. :)
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| rallynutdon | 06-09-2004 07:30 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]Synchros NEED friction ... what makes you think the opposite ? That is why regular synthetics don't work well in gear boxes ... [/B][/QUOTE]
Sometimes you can even hear the syncros bringing the gear up to speed which is happening because of the friction between the syncro and the gear.
[B]Synchros NEED friction ... what makes you think the opposite ? That is why regular synthetics don't work well in gear boxes ... [/B][/QUOTE]
Sometimes you can even hear the syncros bringing the gear up to speed which is happening because of the friction between the syncro and the gear.
| MrHorspwer | 06-09-2004 08:51 AM |
Would you run ATF in your rear differential?
Subaru box's have a hypoid gearset that shares the oil with the transmission... we all know this. This is essentially the same gear set that is in your rear diff. The problem with ATF is that it offers minimal protection for the gear set. All those other transmissions that spec ATF are simply transmissions... they don't contain have a hypoid gearsets stuck in the front of them. By running ATF in a Subaru transmission, you are showing enough confidence in its abilities that you'd also be willing to run it in the rear diff too.
This is where the conflict of interest starts. Your trans lube needs enough EP additives to adaquetly protect the hypoid gearset, but not have so many friction modifiers to where the synchros cannot operate properly. It's a fine line and many of the current fluids on the market are on one side or the other.
ATF may make your synchros shift great, but if it galls and pitts your front gear set it doesn't make much difference does it?
Subaru box's have a hypoid gearset that shares the oil with the transmission... we all know this. This is essentially the same gear set that is in your rear diff. The problem with ATF is that it offers minimal protection for the gear set. All those other transmissions that spec ATF are simply transmissions... they don't contain have a hypoid gearsets stuck in the front of them. By running ATF in a Subaru transmission, you are showing enough confidence in its abilities that you'd also be willing to run it in the rear diff too.
This is where the conflict of interest starts. Your trans lube needs enough EP additives to adaquetly protect the hypoid gearset, but not have so many friction modifiers to where the synchros cannot operate properly. It's a fine line and many of the current fluids on the market are on one side or the other.
ATF may make your synchros shift great, but if it galls and pitts your front gear set it doesn't make much difference does it?
| njpreppy | 06-09-2004 01:40 PM |
gravel: they won't sell my just 4 quarts of it. They insist upon ordering the whole thing and selling me the whole lot. $186. sucks. I'll try North Ursalia.
| paultg | 06-09-2004 01:49 PM |
makofoto: I stand corrected. Sort of confusing, especially when friction is usually a bad thing.
Paul G.
Paul G.
| rob | 06-23-2004 04:48 PM |
any update?
| njpreppy | 06-23-2004 05:50 PM |
Yes, I have an update. I put in Valvoline 80w90 and it equally sucks. Awaiting my Subaru Extra S...
| makofoto | 06-24-2004 01:30 AM |
You can run a synthetic ... but you must add a friction modifier ... to get the ADDITIONAL friction necessary for the synchros to work properly.
| drees | 06-24-2004 01:44 AM |
No, friction modifiers are added to decrease the friction of the fluid.
This is why you need to add FMs to clutch based LSDs. They will chatter and grab without enough FMs. Add them to your tranny, and your synchros won't grab at all.
This is why you need to add FMs to clutch based LSDs. They will chatter and grab without enough FMs. Add them to your tranny, and your synchros won't grab at all.
| makofoto | 06-24-2004 01:46 AM |
I meant a friction modifier that adds friction ... couldn't remember the brand name ....
I did emphasis ADDITIONAL friction .... :p
I did emphasis ADDITIONAL friction .... :p
| GQ | 06-24-2004 07:26 AM |
Shockproof light or MT-90 will solve the gear grinding problems. If these fluids don't solve the problems, then your problems are big. I had the gear grinding issue's and solved it with the shockproof lightweight.
Rob
Rob
| njpreppy | 06-24-2004 11:43 AM |
Did you fill up the whole tranny with shockproof or add it to the synthetic? If so, what kind of shockproof, or how much shockproof...? Please give me specific details so I can make my car work!
| makofoto | 06-24-2004 11:54 AM |
As I mentioned earlier ... I'm running 1/3 MT-90 and 2/3rds oem Dino MT oil ....
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