| chaddeus | 06-18-2004 03:54 AM |
Understeer or Oversteer Tuning
�
�
Do you prefer to make your car slightly oversteer or understeer?
The Subaru STi understeers pretty badly for a stock setup but if I would to tune it, I would, like everyone else make it balance without over or understeer but its pretty impossible to make it totally balance. So if I would to tune the handing of the car, I would tune it more towards the understeer cos when the car understeer, I can release the trottle and control the car.
How about you?
- Charles
The Subaru STi understeers pretty badly for a stock setup but if I would to tune it, I would, like everyone else make it balance without over or understeer but its pretty impossible to make it totally balance. So if I would to tune the handing of the car, I would tune it more towards the understeer cos when the car understeer, I can release the trottle and control the car.
How about you?
- Charles
| Patrick Olsen | 06-18-2004 05:08 AM |
Was that English?
| 8Complex | 06-18-2004 09:42 AM |
Oversteer. Hence the reason I'm not competitively driving the Subaru any more.
| Calamity Jesus | 06-18-2004 09:56 AM |
Neutral under power.
Neutral for power off.
Oversteer for throttle lift.
Neutral for power off.
Oversteer for throttle lift.
| MattDell | 06-18-2004 10:07 AM |
Slight oversteer for me, if I can't have perfect neutrality.
I [b]hate hate hate[/b] any inkling of understeer.
I [b]hate hate hate[/b] any inkling of understeer.
| trhoppe | 06-18-2004 11:35 AM |
:lol: :lol:
I be teh understear no
-Tom
I be teh understear no
-Tom
| FSelekler | 06-18-2004 11:42 AM |
Unfortunately, the only solution for the driver in an understeering car is to lift-off the throttle, and I don't think that is something any one of us would like to do :)
Depending on the type of motorsports, understeer may be desirable (such as oval tracks); however, for autocross as an example, slight oversteer available with the tap of throttle is more desirable.
Also, generally, none of the cars will understeer or oversteer permenantly unless it has been setup really badly. Every car will exhibit understeer or oversteer in different locations in a given corner or different types of corners with the same setup. Especially the STi is a great example of that IMO.
Depending on the type of motorsports, understeer may be desirable (such as oval tracks); however, for autocross as an example, slight oversteer available with the tap of throttle is more desirable.
Also, generally, none of the cars will understeer or oversteer permenantly unless it has been setup really badly. Every car will exhibit understeer or oversteer in different locations in a given corner or different types of corners with the same setup. Especially the STi is a great example of that IMO.
| DrBiggly | 06-18-2004 12:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B]I be teh understear no
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Grap on my tired? :alien:
[B]I be teh understear no
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Grap on my tired? :alien:
| DrBiggly | 06-18-2004 12:27 PM |
Charles,
Set the car up the way that you are used to dealing with and can handle. The fastest way around the course is maximum grip attained by smoothness over the shortest distance. However you feel most in control of the car is best for you. There is no one perfect setup; there is only a perfect setup for you. You can get great guidelines to go ahead and get started with to take away some of the initial stock problems that you don't like, but ultimately how the car feels I say is up to your own preference. :)
Set the car up the way that you are used to dealing with and can handle. The fastest way around the course is maximum grip attained by smoothness over the shortest distance. However you feel most in control of the car is best for you. There is no one perfect setup; there is only a perfect setup for you. You can get great guidelines to go ahead and get started with to take away some of the initial stock problems that you don't like, but ultimately how the car feels I say is up to your own preference. :)
| trhoppe | 06-18-2004 12:31 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DrBiggly[/i]
[B] Grap on my tired? :alien: [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
[B] Grap on my tired? :alien: [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
| DrBiggly | 06-18-2004 12:42 PM |
Here, let me Janq it up for you:
[img]http://photos.drbiggly.com/dragon2004/IMG_7018.jpg[/img]
-Biggly
[img]http://photos.drbiggly.com/dragon2004/IMG_7018.jpg[/img]
-Biggly
| ExitVisa | 06-18-2004 01:00 PM |
[QUOTE]
I be teh understear no
-Tom
[i]Originally posted by DrBiggly [/i]
[B]Grap on my tired? :alien: [/B][/QUOTE]
I was able to decode the first post, but you two have me stumped.
:D
I be teh understear no
-Tom
[i]Originally posted by DrBiggly [/i]
[B]Grap on my tired? :alien: [/B][/QUOTE]
I was able to decode the first post, but you two have me stumped.
:D
| Rodan | 06-18-2004 01:12 PM |
Actually controlling understeer is totally counter intuitive for layman such as myself the natural response to an understeering car that doesn't want to turn is to turn more. Which really makes things worse. From what I have read and heard from more seasoned drivers is to take out steering input in order to regain traction in a turn.
However most of us won't remeber that strategy when were behind the wheel.
As far as oversteer goes I think it's more fashionable to say that everyone prefers oversteer. Sometimes I will add and remove rear sway bar to get the car to turn. Tracks less over steer I prefer to understeer at the limit (makes me feel safer) however at autox I add more oversteer bias.
Keep it going I like threads like this. I love talking about suspension tuning and learning from everyone.
Later
Drew
However most of us won't remeber that strategy when were behind the wheel.
As far as oversteer goes I think it's more fashionable to say that everyone prefers oversteer. Sometimes I will add and remove rear sway bar to get the car to turn. Tracks less over steer I prefer to understeer at the limit (makes me feel safer) however at autox I add more oversteer bias.
Keep it going I like threads like this. I love talking about suspension tuning and learning from everyone.
Later
Drew
| DrBiggly | 06-18-2004 01:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dcargile[/i]
[B] I was able to decode the first post, but you two have me stumped.
:D [/B][/QUOTE]
Do a search for "Grap on my tired" and see what comes up...should explain it all. :)
[B] I was able to decode the first post, but you two have me stumped.
:D [/B][/QUOTE]
Do a search for "Grap on my tired" and see what comes up...should explain it all. :)
| MattDell | 06-18-2004 01:24 PM |
Does Janq's STi actually have that plate?
I've got GOT AWD in WV, but I've been thinking of getting GRAP ON when this expires.
I've got GOT AWD in WV, but I've been thinking of getting GRAP ON when this expires.
| trhoppe | 06-18-2004 01:27 PM |
Thats nhluhr plate from VA.
As far as "Janquing" someone. You should surf OT more....
-Tom
As far as "Janquing" someone. You should surf OT more....
-Tom
| chaddeus | 06-18-2004 02:19 PM |
Just now, I went to a big parking lot where its already close for some construction. I tried driving around. On those big corners, the car would understeer and the tires squeek sounds scary (it is tires fault?). On very sharp corners, I think its ok.. Slight oversteer but Iguess its pretty normal if I jam my gas.
So comes to conclusion that the car is good for autoX where the tracks tends to be smaller but when it comes to big tracks where they have corners with big radius, then should try to work on the car so that the car dont understeer that much
Am I right?
- Charles
So comes to conclusion that the car is good for autoX where the tracks tends to be smaller but when it comes to big tracks where they have corners with big radius, then should try to work on the car so that the car dont understeer that much
Am I right?
- Charles
| DrBiggly | 06-18-2004 02:27 PM |
If the car is bone stock and you want to autox it in a stock class, add a bigger front swaybar. Counter-intuitive though it may seem, it will reduce understeer.
| ratt_finkel | 06-18-2004 02:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DrBiggly [/i]
[B]If the car is bone stock and you want to autox it in a stock class, add a bigger front swaybar. Counter-intuitive though it may seem, it will reduce understeer. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well not really reduce it, but move the limit of under-steer to a higher speed.
[B]If the car is bone stock and you want to autox it in a stock class, add a bigger front swaybar. Counter-intuitive though it may seem, it will reduce understeer. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well not really reduce it, but move the limit of under-steer to a higher speed.
| Calamity Jesus | 06-18-2004 02:57 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dcargile[/i]
[B] I was able to decode the first post, but you two have me stumped.
:D [/B][/QUOTE]
[url]http://rhdude.com/misc/grap%20on%20my%20tired.htm[/url]
[B] I was able to decode the first post, but you two have me stumped.
:D [/B][/QUOTE]
[url]http://rhdude.com/misc/grap%20on%20my%20tired.htm[/url]
| Butt Dyno | 06-18-2004 03:08 PM |
Re: Understeer or Oversteer Tuning
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by chaddeus [/i]
[B]Do you prefer to make your car slightly oversteer or understeer?
The Subaru STi understeers pretty badly for a stock setup but if I would to tune it, I would, like everyone else make it balance without over or understeer but its pretty impossible to make it totally balance. So if I would to tune the handing of the car, I would tune it more towards the understeer cos when the car understeer, I can release the trottle and control the car.
How about you?
- Charles [/B][/QUOTE]So driving around in a big parking lot closed for construction has you convinced that the STi "understeers pretty badly" ?
john
[B]Do you prefer to make your car slightly oversteer or understeer?
The Subaru STi understeers pretty badly for a stock setup but if I would to tune it, I would, like everyone else make it balance without over or understeer but its pretty impossible to make it totally balance. So if I would to tune the handing of the car, I would tune it more towards the understeer cos when the car understeer, I can release the trottle and control the car.
How about you?
- Charles [/B][/QUOTE]So driving around in a big parking lot closed for construction has you convinced that the STi "understeers pretty badly" ?
john
| DrBiggly | 06-18-2004 04:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ratt_finkel[/i]
[B] Well not really reduce it, but move the limit of under-steer to a higher speed. [/B][/QUOTE]
Why do you say that? :confused:
[B] Well not really reduce it, but move the limit of under-steer to a higher speed. [/B][/QUOTE]
Why do you say that? :confused:
| trhoppe | 06-18-2004 04:12 PM |
:lol:
Its technically true. If you have the loosest car in the world and you enter a turn at 10x the speed that you are supposed to take it, you will understeer.
But, yes for all intensive purposes you will reduce the understeer.
-Tom
Its technically true. If you have the loosest car in the world and you enter a turn at 10x the speed that you are supposed to take it, you will understeer.
But, yes for all intensive purposes you will reduce the understeer.
-Tom
| chaddeus | 06-18-2004 06:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ButtDyno[/i]
[B] So driving around in a big parking lot closed for construction has you convinced that the STi "understeers pretty badly" ?
john [/B][/QUOTE]
I guess a little bit of information out there and my little experience convinced me that the STi understeer badly.
Myabe I am wrong but its pretty obvious right?
- Charles
[B] So driving around in a big parking lot closed for construction has you convinced that the STi "understeers pretty badly" ?
john [/B][/QUOTE]
I guess a little bit of information out there and my little experience convinced me that the STi understeer badly.
Myabe I am wrong but its pretty obvious right?
- Charles
| DrBiggly | 06-18-2004 08:46 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]:lol:
Its technically true. If you have the loosest car in the world and you enter a turn at 10x the speed that you are supposed to take it, you will understeer.
But, yes for all intensive purposes you will reduce the understeer.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, an angle I had not seen. I never thought of going into a turn so unrealistically fast that I understeered myself into somewhere I shouldn't have been! :lol:
[B]:lol:
Its technically true. If you have the loosest car in the world and you enter a turn at 10x the speed that you are supposed to take it, you will understeer.
But, yes for all intensive purposes you will reduce the understeer.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, an angle I had not seen. I never thought of going into a turn so unrealistically fast that I understeered myself into somewhere I shouldn't have been! :lol:
| ChrisW | 06-18-2004 11:35 PM |
I setup the car so it's nuetural with a tendency to oversteer (to make the throttle lift more effective)
| zzyzx | 06-19-2004 12:51 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by FSelekler [/i]
[B]Unfortunately, the only solution for the driver in an understeering car is to lift-off the throttle, and I don't think that is something any one of us would like to do :)
Depending on the type of motorsports, understeer may be desirable (such as oval tracks); however, for autocross as an example, slight oversteer available with the tap of throttle is more desirable.
Also, generally, none of the cars will understeer or oversteer permenantly unless it has been setup really badly. Every car will exhibit understeer or oversteer in different locations in a given corner or different types of corners with the same setup. Especially the STi is a great example of that IMO. [/B][/QUOTE]
All of these statements are just so wrong and/or misleading I don't even know where to being. :confused:
Have you ever autox'd?
- Steve
[B]Unfortunately, the only solution for the driver in an understeering car is to lift-off the throttle, and I don't think that is something any one of us would like to do :)
Depending on the type of motorsports, understeer may be desirable (such as oval tracks); however, for autocross as an example, slight oversteer available with the tap of throttle is more desirable.
Also, generally, none of the cars will understeer or oversteer permenantly unless it has been setup really badly. Every car will exhibit understeer or oversteer in different locations in a given corner or different types of corners with the same setup. Especially the STi is a great example of that IMO. [/B][/QUOTE]
All of these statements are just so wrong and/or misleading I don't even know where to being. :confused:
Have you ever autox'd?
- Steve
| afpdl | 06-19-2004 01:45 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by chaddeus[/i]
[B]
The Subaru STi understeers pretty badly for a stock setup but if I - Charles [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly how many cars have you driven that let you come up with this observation?
[B]
The Subaru STi understeers pretty badly for a stock setup but if I - Charles [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly how many cars have you driven that let you come up with this observation?
| ChrisW | 06-19-2004 03:05 AM |
subarus in general understeer badly.
it was one of the reasons I got rid of mine actually. I was disapointed to discover that the understeer was more from the basic chassi design, rather then the suspension and lack of a LSD in front.
it was one of the reasons I got rid of mine actually. I was disapointed to discover that the understeer was more from the basic chassi design, rather then the suspension and lack of a LSD in front.
| trhoppe | 06-19-2004 09:57 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW[/i]
[B] I was disapointed to discover that the understeer was more from the basic chassi design, rather then the suspension and lack of a LSD in front. [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
Are you kidding me?
After reading all the nonsense in this thread, I'm going back to my original answer.
I be no understear
-Tom
[B] I was disapointed to discover that the understeer was more from the basic chassi design, rather then the suspension and lack of a LSD in front. [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
Are you kidding me?
After reading all the nonsense in this thread, I'm going back to my original answer.
I be no understear
-Tom
| DrBiggly | 06-19-2004 10:09 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] After reading all the nonsense in this thread, I'm going back to my original answer.
I be no understear
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Are you serious? :alien:
[B] After reading all the nonsense in this thread, I'm going back to my original answer.
I be no understear
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Are you serious? :alien:
| Thorshamm | 06-19-2004 01:39 PM |
Compared to my old Civic with HR sport springs, Billstein shocks and nicely worn Azenis', my STi wants to oversteer WAY more! (I have yet to take it to a parking lot though) ; )
| Kostamojen | 06-20-2004 12:43 AM |
My car does both. Im very happy with its handling right now, I just need the power to back it up :p
| Capt Crunch | 06-20-2004 09:18 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B]But, yes for all intensive purposes you will reduce the understeer.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
It's "intents and purposes" not intensive purposes.
Sorry, I have a bug up my ass about that one.
[B]But, yes for all intensive purposes you will reduce the understeer.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
It's "intents and purposes" not intensive purposes.
Sorry, I have a bug up my ass about that one.
| makofoto | 06-20-2004 01:06 PM |
Good test on bigger front sway bar increasing STI cornering speed: [url]http://www.selgp.com/sti_modifications.htm[/url]
Charles: some friends of mine AutoX stock STI's. I've gotten track rides with them and have gotten to drive an STI on a AX track.
Of course the stock STI understeers ... but what's interesting with the STI, with the center differential set to AUTO ... is that when you are understeering ... you keep your foot into it ... and the AWD pulls you out of the corner before you understeer off. In my WRX, I would have to lift or maintain throttle position in order not to understeer off of the course.
You have to learn to trust your AUTO DCCD and AWD. A lot of kids have been crashing their STI's because they suddenly lift when cornering hard ... and their car spins. Of course you can still run out of room and understeer off ...
Remember that a lot of understeer is driver induced by entering corners too fast. The fastest thing that I've learned is to REALLY use my brakes, HARD and SHORT, (where needed) enter the corner slower, but then be able to really get on the power! Remember that you won't GAIN much time in slow corners, but you can LOSE a lot of time!
Charles: some friends of mine AutoX stock STI's. I've gotten track rides with them and have gotten to drive an STI on a AX track.
Of course the stock STI understeers ... but what's interesting with the STI, with the center differential set to AUTO ... is that when you are understeering ... you keep your foot into it ... and the AWD pulls you out of the corner before you understeer off. In my WRX, I would have to lift or maintain throttle position in order not to understeer off of the course.
You have to learn to trust your AUTO DCCD and AWD. A lot of kids have been crashing their STI's because they suddenly lift when cornering hard ... and their car spins. Of course you can still run out of room and understeer off ...
Remember that a lot of understeer is driver induced by entering corners too fast. The fastest thing that I've learned is to REALLY use my brakes, HARD and SHORT, (where needed) enter the corner slower, but then be able to really get on the power! Remember that you won't GAIN much time in slow corners, but you can LOSE a lot of time!
| DrBiggly | 06-20-2004 01:12 PM |
mako,
Good find on that link! I like seeing some hard data. :)
Good find on that link! I like seeing some hard data. :)
| bastich | 06-20-2004 01:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]subarus in general understeer badly.
it was one of the reasons I got rid of mine actually. I was disapointed to discover that the understeer was more from the basic chassi design, rather then the suspension and lack of a LSD in front. [/B][/QUOTE]
So a car like the Spec-C has a different "basic chassi design" than the rest of the imprezas? I am not an experienced racer, but that seems pretty inaccurate to me.
[B]subarus in general understeer badly.
it was one of the reasons I got rid of mine actually. I was disapointed to discover that the understeer was more from the basic chassi design, rather then the suspension and lack of a LSD in front. [/B][/QUOTE]
So a car like the Spec-C has a different "basic chassi design" than the rest of the imprezas? I am not an experienced racer, but that seems pretty inaccurate to me.
| makofoto | 06-20-2004 02:24 PM |
Might depending on what type of racing one does. An Impreza chassis can be VERY fast on a road track ... and on a slow AX course ... but the Impreza and/or AWD has certain characteristics that some drivers don't enjoy. I know of a couple of drivers that switched to rear wheel drive cars, even after having pretty successful seasons with WRX's ... because they wanted the experience of driving a pure rear wheel drive car. One of our fastest drivers races a JDM EVO 7 ... with a special chip that put more then usual power to the rear wheels. Best perhaps the best of all worlds. ;)
| ChrisW | 06-21-2004 01:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] :lol: :lol:
Are you kidding me?
After reading all the nonsense in this thread, I'm going back to my original answer.
I be no understear
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
you be running a modded suspension. Compared to the EVO the STI was understeering pretty bad... Have you driven an EVO yet Tom? :devil:
Even in the WRX the car understeered badly until I added caster. Once I added the caster 90% of the understeer in the WRX was removed, but not completly eliminated.
[B] :lol: :lol:
Are you kidding me?
After reading all the nonsense in this thread, I'm going back to my original answer.
I be no understear
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
you be running a modded suspension. Compared to the EVO the STI was understeering pretty bad... Have you driven an EVO yet Tom? :devil:
Even in the WRX the car understeered badly until I added caster. Once I added the caster 90% of the understeer in the WRX was removed, but not completly eliminated.
| makofoto | 06-21-2004 01:59 PM |
Chris ... how much negative camber do you use with your increased caster ... any idea how much caster you are running ... and how did you add caster?
| zoomfactor | 06-21-2004 02:11 PM |
You can't "tune" a car for understeer or overseer in a vacuum. Driver input is as important a component as alignment, shock/strut or sway bar choice.
Anyone who thinks the WRX/STi has bad understeer needs to spend some time in a first generation MR2 or early 911 -- bad understeer followed by religious-experience inducing snap oversteer.
IMO - a little suspension tweaking and the WRX (can't comment too much on the STi) is about a tossable as it gets - as long as you aren't stupid. The chassis seems to telegraph its intentions very well before surprising you.
Anyone who thinks the WRX/STi has bad understeer needs to spend some time in a first generation MR2 or early 911 -- bad understeer followed by religious-experience inducing snap oversteer.
IMO - a little suspension tweaking and the WRX (can't comment too much on the STi) is about a tossable as it gets - as long as you aren't stupid. The chassis seems to telegraph its intentions very well before surprising you.
| ChrisW | 06-21-2004 10:25 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B] Chris ... how much negative camber do you use with your increased caster ... any idea how much caster you are running ... and how did you add caster? [/B][/QUOTE]
i never used more than -3 degrees. after playing with the suspension alignment my best performance was with -2.5 degrees in front with 4.5 degrees caster. i got the caster setting by using noltec camber/caster plates and shoving them as close to the firewall as possible. you can search the suspension forums for more details.
basically the formula i used was to keep a ratio between the front and rear camber. i ran ~-0.8 degrees camber in the rear with a little toe-out (1/16" on the front and rear). the biggest problem i had with that setup was the springs on the struts were a little too soft (looking back in hindsight, i would have said otherwise at the time) that resulted in too much body roll and chewed up fenderwells.....
after setting up the front end the way i liked it, i pulled camber out of the rear until i dialed out the understeer to the point where i could tollerate (read: spin the car) it and then dialed some camber backin.
it's all up to your individual preferences.
FWIW: I was able to get the EVO to handle the same as my STX prepped WRX just using the stock adjustments available on the EVO from the factory. No mods, no camber plates, no fancy struts required
[B] Chris ... how much negative camber do you use with your increased caster ... any idea how much caster you are running ... and how did you add caster? [/B][/QUOTE]
i never used more than -3 degrees. after playing with the suspension alignment my best performance was with -2.5 degrees in front with 4.5 degrees caster. i got the caster setting by using noltec camber/caster plates and shoving them as close to the firewall as possible. you can search the suspension forums for more details.
basically the formula i used was to keep a ratio between the front and rear camber. i ran ~-0.8 degrees camber in the rear with a little toe-out (1/16" on the front and rear). the biggest problem i had with that setup was the springs on the struts were a little too soft (looking back in hindsight, i would have said otherwise at the time) that resulted in too much body roll and chewed up fenderwells.....
after setting up the front end the way i liked it, i pulled camber out of the rear until i dialed out the understeer to the point where i could tollerate (read: spin the car) it and then dialed some camber backin.
it's all up to your individual preferences.
FWIW: I was able to get the EVO to handle the same as my STX prepped WRX just using the stock adjustments available on the EVO from the factory. No mods, no camber plates, no fancy struts required
| AlpineFD | 06-22-2004 04:28 AM |
What kind of shock/spring rate were you using?
Another question, how does front/rear toe in/out effect WRX in different phases of a corner at different speeds? Turn in, transition and track out.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]i never used more than -3 degrees. after playing with the suspension alignment my best performance was with -2.5 degrees in front with 4.5 degrees caster. i got the caster setting by using noltec camber/caster plates and shoving them as close to the firewall as possible. you can search the suspension forums for more details.
basically the formula i used was to keep a ratio between the front and rear camber. i ran ~-0.8 degrees camber in the rear with a little toe-out (1/16" on the front and rear). the biggest problem i had with that setup was the springs on the struts were a little too soft (looking back in hindsight, i would have said otherwise at the time) that resulted in too much body roll and chewed up fenderwells.....
after setting up the front end the way i liked it, i pulled camber out of the rear until i dialed out the understeer to the point where i could tollerate (read: spin the car) it and then dialed some camber backin.
it's all up to your individual preferences.
FWIW: I was able to get the EVO to handle the same as my STX prepped WRX just using the stock adjustments available on the EVO from the factory. No mods, no camber plates, no fancy struts required [/B][/QUOTE]
Another question, how does front/rear toe in/out effect WRX in different phases of a corner at different speeds? Turn in, transition and track out.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]i never used more than -3 degrees. after playing with the suspension alignment my best performance was with -2.5 degrees in front with 4.5 degrees caster. i got the caster setting by using noltec camber/caster plates and shoving them as close to the firewall as possible. you can search the suspension forums for more details.
basically the formula i used was to keep a ratio between the front and rear camber. i ran ~-0.8 degrees camber in the rear with a little toe-out (1/16" on the front and rear). the biggest problem i had with that setup was the springs on the struts were a little too soft (looking back in hindsight, i would have said otherwise at the time) that resulted in too much body roll and chewed up fenderwells.....
after setting up the front end the way i liked it, i pulled camber out of the rear until i dialed out the understeer to the point where i could tollerate (read: spin the car) it and then dialed some camber backin.
it's all up to your individual preferences.
FWIW: I was able to get the EVO to handle the same as my STX prepped WRX just using the stock adjustments available on the EVO from the factory. No mods, no camber plates, no fancy struts required [/B][/QUOTE]
| Impreza01 | 06-22-2004 05:12 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW[/i]
[B] subarus in general understeer badly.
it was one of the reasons I got rid of mine actually. I was disapointed to discover that the understeer was more from the basic chassi design, rather then the suspension and lack of a LSD in front. [/B][/QUOTE]
Right, [sarcasm] that's why the Spec C understeers so much compared to the Evo [/sarcasm]. In reality, it's all about suspension set-up.
To the original poster: I think you should set up the car comfortable to your driving style. If you want other's opinion, well I'd go for oversteer just because the car is "turning" more instead of plowing. And as WRC drivers say, they want oversteer over understeer because it provides more "options" on what to do when cornering.
[B] subarus in general understeer badly.
it was one of the reasons I got rid of mine actually. I was disapointed to discover that the understeer was more from the basic chassi design, rather then the suspension and lack of a LSD in front. [/B][/QUOTE]
Right, [sarcasm] that's why the Spec C understeers so much compared to the Evo [/sarcasm]. In reality, it's all about suspension set-up.
To the original poster: I think you should set up the car comfortable to your driving style. If you want other's opinion, well I'd go for oversteer just because the car is "turning" more instead of plowing. And as WRC drivers say, they want oversteer over understeer because it provides more "options" on what to do when cornering.
| KoneKiller | 06-22-2004 10:56 AM |
With a bit of alignment adjustment, a bigger front bar (thanks selgp) and decent tire pressure choices, I have the STi tuned to be pretty tail-happy.
If your entry speed into the corner is about right and you trailbrake toward the apex, the tail will rotate nicely. Power oversteer is also available on demand. All in all, the STi is becoming a great joy on the autocross circuit.
Overcook the entry and it will understeer until Tuesday.
If your entry speed into the corner is about right and you trailbrake toward the apex, the tail will rotate nicely. Power oversteer is also available on demand. All in all, the STi is becoming a great joy on the autocross circuit.
Overcook the entry and it will understeer until Tuesday.
| AlpineFD | 06-22-2004 02:12 PM |
If I slow down too much going in to the corner the rpm will often drop below 3000rpm, the stock wrx has very little power there, there is a noticeble lag when I put my foot down and when the car actually accelerate hard out of the corner.
| Butt Dyno | 06-22-2004 02:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AlpineFD [/i]
[B]If I slow down too much going in to the corner the rpm will often drop below 3000rpm, the stock wrx has very little power there, there is a noticeble lag when I put my foot down and when the car actually accelerate hard out of the corner. [/B][/QUOTE]Just get on the gas earlier when you're coming out :)
john
[B]If I slow down too much going in to the corner the rpm will often drop below 3000rpm, the stock wrx has very little power there, there is a noticeble lag when I put my foot down and when the car actually accelerate hard out of the corner. [/B][/QUOTE]Just get on the gas earlier when you're coming out :)
john
| DrBiggly | 06-22-2004 02:32 PM |
Or get on the gas before you come out of the corner. That way by the time you actually are exiting the corner you have some hope of having power. :)
| AlpineFD | 06-22-2004 05:40 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DrBiggly [/i]
[B]Or get on the gas before you come out of the corner. That way by the time you actually are exiting the corner you have some hope of having power. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
If your entry speed into the corner is about right and you trailbrake toward the apex, the tail will rotate nicely. Power oversteer is also available on demand. All in all, the STi is becoming a great joy on the autocross circuit.
Overcook the entry and it will understeer until Tuesday.
[/QUOTE]
I was responding to konekiller's post, if I trail brake toward the apex like he said, I won't have to fight understeer before exiting the corner, however my exit speed will be very slow due to the low rpm spot from not getting on the throttle early enough.
[B]Or get on the gas before you come out of the corner. That way by the time you actually are exiting the corner you have some hope of having power. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
If your entry speed into the corner is about right and you trailbrake toward the apex, the tail will rotate nicely. Power oversteer is also available on demand. All in all, the STi is becoming a great joy on the autocross circuit.
Overcook the entry and it will understeer until Tuesday.
[/QUOTE]
I was responding to konekiller's post, if I trail brake toward the apex like he said, I won't have to fight understeer before exiting the corner, however my exit speed will be very slow due to the low rpm spot from not getting on the throttle early enough.
| DrBiggly | 06-22-2004 05:57 PM |
Ooh, right. I skimmed too quickly. :o
I am at fault. Yes, corner exit speed sucks when trailbraking...unless you're LFB and getting the boost back up while trailbraking. :)
I am at fault. Yes, corner exit speed sucks when trailbraking...unless you're LFB and getting the boost back up while trailbraking. :)
| KoneKiller | 06-22-2004 05:59 PM |
I've never had a problem with turbo lag in the STi.... the 2002 WRX I own...yes, but not the STi.
I drive those two cars very differently.
I drive those two cars very differently.
| ChrisW | 06-22-2004 08:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Impreza01[/i]
[B] Right, [sarcasm] that's why the Spec C understeers so much compared to the Evo [/sarcasm]. In reality, it's all about suspension set-up. [/B][/QUOTE]
Never autocrossed a Spec C so I can't comment on it's handling qualities. Have you?
but yeah, it's all about the suspension setup.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AlpineFD[/i]
[B] What kind of shock/spring rate were you using?
Another question, how does front/rear toe in/out effect WRX in different phases of a corner at different speeds? Turn in, transition and track out. [/B][/QUOTE]
I was running DMS 50 street length struts, with the recommended spring rates (225f 180r)
On the toe changes, it can be summarized like this...
toe-out on the front helps the initial turn-in on corner entry.
toe-out on the rear helps to get the backend set on mid corner and corner exit.
Another note: I found that the STI was very sensitive to tire presure changes. Much more so than the WRX. Which is weird because they share the same basic chassi design and suspension geometry, within limits obviously, the STI runs a better setup (very similar to my STX setup actually) with extra caster, but otherwise it is very [i]similar[/i] to the WRX. Which is what you would expect since they share the same unibody.
[B] Right, [sarcasm] that's why the Spec C understeers so much compared to the Evo [/sarcasm]. In reality, it's all about suspension set-up. [/B][/QUOTE]
Never autocrossed a Spec C so I can't comment on it's handling qualities. Have you?
but yeah, it's all about the suspension setup.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AlpineFD[/i]
[B] What kind of shock/spring rate were you using?
Another question, how does front/rear toe in/out effect WRX in different phases of a corner at different speeds? Turn in, transition and track out. [/B][/QUOTE]
I was running DMS 50 street length struts, with the recommended spring rates (225f 180r)
On the toe changes, it can be summarized like this...
toe-out on the front helps the initial turn-in on corner entry.
toe-out on the rear helps to get the backend set on mid corner and corner exit.
Another note: I found that the STI was very sensitive to tire presure changes. Much more so than the WRX. Which is weird because they share the same basic chassi design and suspension geometry, within limits obviously, the STI runs a better setup (very similar to my STX setup actually) with extra caster, but otherwise it is very [i]similar[/i] to the WRX. Which is what you would expect since they share the same unibody.
| GarySheehan | 06-22-2004 08:48 PM |
Um, huh.
The discussion has been rather general in describing the handling of the car so far. From my experience, there is drastically differerent balance characteristics during trail-braking at corner entry, no-throttle at corner entry, even-throttle mid-corner, drop-throttle mid-corner and throttle-on corner exit. All of these also change to some degree depending on low, medium or high speed cornering.
If someone asked what the balance of my car was, I would have to explain at least each phase of the corner in order to give them a real idea of what's going on.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
The discussion has been rather general in describing the handling of the car so far. From my experience, there is drastically differerent balance characteristics during trail-braking at corner entry, no-throttle at corner entry, even-throttle mid-corner, drop-throttle mid-corner and throttle-on corner exit. All of these also change to some degree depending on low, medium or high speed cornering.
If someone asked what the balance of my car was, I would have to explain at least each phase of the corner in order to give them a real idea of what's going on.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| makofoto | 06-22-2004 11:58 PM |
Which is why you are in a different league then most of us!!! :)
Congrats on your fabulous showing at the Glen!
Congrats on your fabulous showing at the Glen!
| DrBiggly | 06-23-2004 12:22 AM |
Ditto! :)
| KoneKiller | 06-23-2004 01:08 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan[/i]
[B] Um, huh.
The discussion has been rather general in describing the handling of the car so far. From my experience, there is drastically differerent balance characteristics during trail-braking at corner entry, no-throttle at corner entry, even-throttle mid-corner, drop-throttle mid-corner and throttle-on corner exit. All of these also change to some degree depending on low, medium or high speed cornering.
If someone asked what the balance of my car was, I would have to explain at least each phase of the corner in order to give them a real idea of what's going on.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not in your league Mr. Sheehan, but that is true of every car I've taken to the limit... My 911, my M3, my WRX, my STi, even my Birel.
What makes folks like you so impressive is that you are precise enough to generate the same conditions in each turn every time.... reminds me of what my grandpappy used to tell me when he taught me to shoot competitively: when you can hide 10 shots under a quarter, we'll adjust the rifle's sights.
[B] Um, huh.
The discussion has been rather general in describing the handling of the car so far. From my experience, there is drastically differerent balance characteristics during trail-braking at corner entry, no-throttle at corner entry, even-throttle mid-corner, drop-throttle mid-corner and throttle-on corner exit. All of these also change to some degree depending on low, medium or high speed cornering.
If someone asked what the balance of my car was, I would have to explain at least each phase of the corner in order to give them a real idea of what's going on.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not in your league Mr. Sheehan, but that is true of every car I've taken to the limit... My 911, my M3, my WRX, my STi, even my Birel.
What makes folks like you so impressive is that you are precise enough to generate the same conditions in each turn every time.... reminds me of what my grandpappy used to tell me when he taught me to shoot competitively: when you can hide 10 shots under a quarter, we'll adjust the rifle's sights.
| GarySheehan | 06-23-2004 12:20 PM |
Hey guys,
My intent wasn't rag on you for not talking in generalities but to get some of you on the right page that a car's balance is more than what you feel at corner exit. Even if you haven't experienced what I'm talking about, keep it in your mind the next time you are on the track and start to analyze how your car is behaving in all stages of the corner. It's very important to understand all of this, because when you make a change to the balance in one part of the corner, it is more than likely going to effect another part of the corner. You need to gauge the impact to the entire balance of the car, not just the part that's giving you a hard time.
Start breaking down the corners and how the car behaves through each phase. You need to have an understanding of the dynamics of the car through the entire corner before you can make educated guesses with spring, bar and shock changes.
Good luck!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
My intent wasn't rag on you for not talking in generalities but to get some of you on the right page that a car's balance is more than what you feel at corner exit. Even if you haven't experienced what I'm talking about, keep it in your mind the next time you are on the track and start to analyze how your car is behaving in all stages of the corner. It's very important to understand all of this, because when you make a change to the balance in one part of the corner, it is more than likely going to effect another part of the corner. You need to gauge the impact to the entire balance of the car, not just the part that's giving you a hard time.
Start breaking down the corners and how the car behaves through each phase. You need to have an understanding of the dynamics of the car through the entire corner before you can make educated guesses with spring, bar and shock changes.
Good luck!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Kostamojen | 06-23-2004 09:38 PM |
Gary knows, it took him forever to finally get his car to handle just right :D It is a scary beast now, especially with the G-man driving :eek:
| AlpineFD | 06-24-2004 03:42 AM |
Hi Gary,
I'm sure you've drivien the stock wrx on track, can you tell us how you felt about the car on differnt phases of cornering? Also what is your ideal behavior for a wrx on different phases of cornering?
Thanks
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]Hey guys,
My intent wasn't rag on you for not talking in generalities but to get some of you on the right page that a car's balance is more than what you feel at corner exit. Even if you haven't experienced what I'm talking about, keep it in your mind the next time you are on the track and start to analyze how your car is behaving in all stages of the corner. It's very important to understand all of this, because when you make a change to the balance in one part of the corner, it is more than likely going to effect another part of the corner. You need to gauge the impact to the entire balance of the car, not just the part that's giving you a hard time.
Start breaking down the corners and how the car behaves through each phase. You need to have an understanding of the dynamics of the car through the entire corner before you can make educated guesses with spring, bar and shock changes.
Good luck!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sure you've drivien the stock wrx on track, can you tell us how you felt about the car on differnt phases of cornering? Also what is your ideal behavior for a wrx on different phases of cornering?
Thanks
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]Hey guys,
My intent wasn't rag on you for not talking in generalities but to get some of you on the right page that a car's balance is more than what you feel at corner exit. Even if you haven't experienced what I'm talking about, keep it in your mind the next time you are on the track and start to analyze how your car is behaving in all stages of the corner. It's very important to understand all of this, because when you make a change to the balance in one part of the corner, it is more than likely going to effect another part of the corner. You need to gauge the impact to the entire balance of the car, not just the part that's giving you a hard time.
Start breaking down the corners and how the car behaves through each phase. You need to have an understanding of the dynamics of the car through the entire corner before you can make educated guesses with spring, bar and shock changes.
Good luck!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
| WRXIN | 06-28-2004 12:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KoneKiller [/i]
[B]With a bit of alignment adjustment, a bigger front bar (thanks selgp) and decent tire pressure choices, I have the STi tuned to be pretty tail-happy.
If your entry speed into the corner is about right and you trailbrake toward the apex, the tail will rotate nicely. Power oversteer is also available on demand. All in all, the STi is becoming a great joy on the autocross circuit.
Overcook the entry and it will understeer until Tuesday. [/B][/QUOTE]
I couldn�t agree more with konekiller. Overcook a corner in ANY car and it will understeer.
I�ve owned my STi since February. (still bone stock except for a cat-back) I�ve auto-x'd four or five times in the STi, including a bunch of fun-runs and a very interesting high-speed event in Lone Pine, CA. Before that I owned a WRX wagon for two years and auto-x�d it for a year or so.
I thought a little background would be important (to add and/or remove credibility).
I really think folks need to drive both a stock WRX and a stock STi to be able to make comparative statements. (this isnt aimed at anyone in particular, just speaking in general terms) They are totally different cars to drive. The similarities begin and end with things like the A/C vents and the mirrors�
I know Mako quite well and he made a statement earlier about the STi clawing its way through understeer. It does, in a big way.
I�m no expert with the technical terms but I can say this. The STi hates too much brake input once you start to turn. Get on the brakes (if necessary) before the turn and then get off them (unless you like to trailbrake obviously). Trust the car and the DCCD and the front LSD to pull you through the first half of a corner. Mid-way through the corner, apply more power, and the car nicely transitions into very controllable, tossable throttle-on oversteer. The car likes to be tossed around a bit. It likes to be upset a little just before entering a corner with some quick heavy braking combined with quick steering input (but not too much).
Driven correctly, the STi is a joy to drive. An abundance of power and torque is instantly available with very predictable handling characteristics. Mako and I are very similar in terms of driving skill and experience. He has thousands invested in his WRX wagon (and its a very nice car). He needed all those parts to keep up with a stock STi. (sorry Mako! Nothing against you)
Many people's first inclination is to blame their car and start buying parts. I'm actually quite happy with the STi and if I change anything, it will be the front swaybar. I think the factory tires are amazing (expensive, unfortunately...). (I want to stay in SK1.) I took 2nd place in SK1 at my last autox. I think STi's will endup being very competitive.
FWIW, I run 50psi front and rear. I consistently gain 2psi per run and bleed that off. I leave the DCCD in auto. Its smarter than I am right now. I also like to leave the spare in the trunk and run with at least half a tank of gas.
Sorry for rambling, I just don't like blanket statements like "the STi understeers badly".
Great thread. Thanks for all the input and info. Keep it coming!
-Mark
[B]With a bit of alignment adjustment, a bigger front bar (thanks selgp) and decent tire pressure choices, I have the STi tuned to be pretty tail-happy.
If your entry speed into the corner is about right and you trailbrake toward the apex, the tail will rotate nicely. Power oversteer is also available on demand. All in all, the STi is becoming a great joy on the autocross circuit.
Overcook the entry and it will understeer until Tuesday. [/B][/QUOTE]
I couldn�t agree more with konekiller. Overcook a corner in ANY car and it will understeer.
I�ve owned my STi since February. (still bone stock except for a cat-back) I�ve auto-x'd four or five times in the STi, including a bunch of fun-runs and a very interesting high-speed event in Lone Pine, CA. Before that I owned a WRX wagon for two years and auto-x�d it for a year or so.
I thought a little background would be important (to add and/or remove credibility).
I really think folks need to drive both a stock WRX and a stock STi to be able to make comparative statements. (this isnt aimed at anyone in particular, just speaking in general terms) They are totally different cars to drive. The similarities begin and end with things like the A/C vents and the mirrors�
I know Mako quite well and he made a statement earlier about the STi clawing its way through understeer. It does, in a big way.
I�m no expert with the technical terms but I can say this. The STi hates too much brake input once you start to turn. Get on the brakes (if necessary) before the turn and then get off them (unless you like to trailbrake obviously). Trust the car and the DCCD and the front LSD to pull you through the first half of a corner. Mid-way through the corner, apply more power, and the car nicely transitions into very controllable, tossable throttle-on oversteer. The car likes to be tossed around a bit. It likes to be upset a little just before entering a corner with some quick heavy braking combined with quick steering input (but not too much).
Driven correctly, the STi is a joy to drive. An abundance of power and torque is instantly available with very predictable handling characteristics. Mako and I are very similar in terms of driving skill and experience. He has thousands invested in his WRX wagon (and its a very nice car). He needed all those parts to keep up with a stock STi. (sorry Mako! Nothing against you)
Many people's first inclination is to blame their car and start buying parts. I'm actually quite happy with the STi and if I change anything, it will be the front swaybar. I think the factory tires are amazing (expensive, unfortunately...). (I want to stay in SK1.) I took 2nd place in SK1 at my last autox. I think STi's will endup being very competitive.
FWIW, I run 50psi front and rear. I consistently gain 2psi per run and bleed that off. I leave the DCCD in auto. Its smarter than I am right now. I also like to leave the spare in the trunk and run with at least half a tank of gas.
Sorry for rambling, I just don't like blanket statements like "the STi understeers badly".
Great thread. Thanks for all the input and info. Keep it coming!
-Mark
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