| RebelINS | 01-09-2006 01:33 AM |
Another heel toe thread!
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This is kind of an off-shoot of some things that were mentioned in the pedal cover thread. I just started trying to heel toe, but I have alot of trouble doing the method where you are actually using your heel and toe. Instead I was using half of my foot on each pedal. I understand why this isn't the desirable method and would like to do it the other way, but I want to know if it is possible for me. I am about 6' 5" and wear a size 13 shoe. I find that when I try to heel and toe my knee gets in the way of the steering wheel. Is it because I am rotating my leg too much? Let me know if you are tall and if you've had success.
-Wes
-Wes
| flyboymike | 01-09-2006 01:41 AM |
Can you tilt the steering wheel up some? That'll give you more room to work with. Just thinking about the geometry of the movement, it's all about limiting knee rise. Maybe if you lower the seat and move it a little further back, you could rotate more easily.
Can't help more than that, I'm afraid... 5'8" size 9
Can't help more than that, I'm afraid... 5'8" size 9
| psg | 01-09-2006 01:49 AM |
While I can't help on shedding light on the tall situation (me being 5'8"), be aware that the term heel-toe is actually a misnomer. You're not quite using your heel and toe. Technique varies from person to person and how wide your feet/shoes are.
To be more technical, you keep roughly one-half of your foot to apply steady brake pressure, pivoting your foot slightly, and using the right side of your foot to blip the throttle. Again, this technique can vary based on how comfortably you can pivot your foot. Some people with really wide feet don't even have to pivot, and simply blip the throttle without any trouble.
I'm sure the road racers like Gary and Tom can clarify some of these gray areas and comment on their technique.
(Read: take my advice with a grain of salt, because I'm no road racer...)
To be more technical, you keep roughly one-half of your foot to apply steady brake pressure, pivoting your foot slightly, and using the right side of your foot to blip the throttle. Again, this technique can vary based on how comfortably you can pivot your foot. Some people with really wide feet don't even have to pivot, and simply blip the throttle without any trouble.
I'm sure the road racers like Gary and Tom can clarify some of these gray areas and comment on their technique.
(Read: take my advice with a grain of salt, because I'm no road racer...)
| Kaymin | 01-09-2006 02:07 AM |
same thing with me but I think its my car's pedals! I'm only like 5' 8-9" I don't know i've grown too much lately, but my pedals are too close and there isn't any possible way my 9.5 Adidas Goodyear shoes could possibly use heel and toe mines more like toe and arch... lol
| shemoves | 01-09-2006 03:17 AM |
I do a little mix of both the half/half and actual heel toe...and am slowly getting more of the actual heel/toe. I had a lot of trouble with it at first.....but stuck with it. I'd say give the real heel/toe method a solid two weeks to teach your muscles to do that and you'll be surprised with the results.
| endeavor | 01-09-2006 03:23 AM |
I am 6'3" and wear a size 13. Like I said in the other thread, it was difficult for me at first, but I started out barefoot and then migrated to a narrow shoe and then to my normal, wide Airwalk skate shoes. It took a few weeks of attacking right-hand turns barefoot to get used to used to the contortion required to avoid hitting the steering wheel/column with my knee. I can't say that there is any trick to it. If you can do it with the car parked, you SHOULD be able to do it diving into a turn at 100mph -- it just takes a while to get used to ;)
One thing that was frustrating was that all of the videos I found that showed pedal action (Gary's, BMI, etc.) are of relatively short people that have tons of room at the knee where I had zero. Tall people get the advantage in basketball, football, volleyball and just about everything else -- short people get auto racing :D
Might also want to pick up a pair of real racing shoes; a lot of people say that that helped them.
One thing that was frustrating was that all of the videos I found that showed pedal action (Gary's, BMI, etc.) are of relatively short people that have tons of room at the knee where I had zero. Tall people get the advantage in basketball, football, volleyball and just about everything else -- short people get auto racing :D
Might also want to pick up a pair of real racing shoes; a lot of people say that that helped them.
| bratwar | 01-09-2006 03:38 AM |
What I do is that I use the ball of my feet on stepping the brake pedal and then twisting your foot so that your heel hits the gas pedal. If you are tall then lift your foot up more when you are stepping at the brake pedal. Note that your heel shouldn't be hitting the floor.
To practice, on a stop light or in a parking lot, try to step on the brake and then tap the gas pedal. Release and then try again. Your heel shouldn't hit the wall at the right side of the gas pedal. (where the transmission resides).
Driving shoes or like tennis shoes, (anything that doesn't have too much padding at the sole), are recommended since you "feel" the pedals more. Naturally you can do this on a basketball shoes but it's not recommended.
To practice, on a stop light or in a parking lot, try to step on the brake and then tap the gas pedal. Release and then try again. Your heel shouldn't hit the wall at the right side of the gas pedal. (where the transmission resides).
Driving shoes or like tennis shoes, (anything that doesn't have too much padding at the sole), are recommended since you "feel" the pedals more. Naturally you can do this on a basketball shoes but it's not recommended.
| leecea | 01-09-2006 09:28 AM |
I'm just over 6' and I have a similar problem. To get the correct driving position for my upper body, my legs are pretty cramped. I do have the steering wheel all the way up, but I still can't make an easy heel-toe motion because of the angle of my legs.
I do pretty much what the poster above described. I brake with the ball of my foot and then do a strange kinda rotation and lift of the rest of my foot so that I can blip the throttle with the outside edge of the shoe. Shoes really make a difference. Running shoes or anything with a heel make it harder because they add about an inch or more to my leg length. Something supple and with virtually no heel works best.
At your size it is going to be hard, but it should be possible once you figure out the motion that works for you and still lets you brake safely and reliably.
I do pretty much what the poster above described. I brake with the ball of my foot and then do a strange kinda rotation and lift of the rest of my foot so that I can blip the throttle with the outside edge of the shoe. Shoes really make a difference. Running shoes or anything with a heel make it harder because they add about an inch or more to my leg length. Something supple and with virtually no heel works best.
At your size it is going to be hard, but it should be possible once you figure out the motion that works for you and still lets you brake safely and reliably.
| jamesohoh7 | 01-09-2006 09:44 AM |
I've only been able to get a feel for doing the heel-toe thing after I got some of those 'goodyear' Adidas shoes. I daily wear kind of clunky hiking shoes, and while great for comfort, suck (for me) to drive with now that I know what a nice thin soled shoe w/a low 'heel' can do. I no longer catch my heel on the side of the gas pedal like before. It really made a difference and now I am slowly learning to do this 'the right way'.
I tried using the right-edge of my foot to blip the gas (before the 'new shoes') and that never seemed to work very well for me anyway.
To each their own I guess...
I tried using the right-edge of my foot to blip the gas (before the 'new shoes') and that never seemed to work very well for me anyway.
To each their own I guess...
| GarySheehan | 01-09-2006 10:13 AM |
[QUOTE=RebelINS]I am about 6' 5" and wear a size 13 shoe.-Wes[/QUOTE]
Shouldn't your sport involve a large orange ball?! Someone pointed you in the wrong direction...
Don't worry about what "method" you are using. If you have found a way to cram those sticks down there and work both pedals with one foot, then stick with it.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Shouldn't your sport involve a large orange ball?! Someone pointed you in the wrong direction...
Don't worry about what "method" you are using. If you have found a way to cram those sticks down there and work both pedals with one foot, then stick with it.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Jack | 01-09-2006 01:21 PM |
[QUOTE=psg]While I can't help on shedding light on the tall situation (me being 5'8"), be aware that the term heel-toe is actually a misnomer. You're not quite using your heel and toe.[/QUOTE]
Whoa, buddy!
I'm only a size 8 shoe, so you'll have to figure it out for your size. But there are 3 ways to do heel and toe that I'm aware of. I'm self taught so learned the least common way. However, I'm an instructor and drive a couple dozen students cars every season. I've only had problems with early 2002 and 911's with the floor hinged brake/clutch pedals.
Most common way. Left side of foot on brake, right side of foot blips the throttle.
2nd way: Heel on gas, toe on brake.
My way: Heel on brake, toe on top of gas pedal.
Here's what I personally like about the method I'm using. I use my heel to brake on the track all the time now, even when I'm not downshifting. So my brain is used to this. Try braking with your heel in normal driving. It's very weird until you do it a lot. With your foot twisted, the toe now can modulate gas at the top of the gas pedal quite easily. So as you're doing this, you have a good, firm "I ain't slipping off" grip of the brake pedal and can modulate the top of the gas so it's not the "on" "off" feel of hitting the bottom (hinge) part of the pedal. I'll add that I do double clutch during this and it's quite second nature, but I've been doing it for a lot of years.
Another thing I like is that I really don't care how close/far away the brake pedal is from the gas. Height really isn't important either. I can span far distances pretty easily. I've had other racers tell me that my pedals are setup impossible to do heel and toe in my racecar. Never had a problem.
Give each of the 3 methods a shot. Your feet are twice as big as mine :D but one method is bound to work. Oh.....driving shoes help.
jack
Whoa, buddy!
I'm only a size 8 shoe, so you'll have to figure it out for your size. But there are 3 ways to do heel and toe that I'm aware of. I'm self taught so learned the least common way. However, I'm an instructor and drive a couple dozen students cars every season. I've only had problems with early 2002 and 911's with the floor hinged brake/clutch pedals.
Most common way. Left side of foot on brake, right side of foot blips the throttle.
2nd way: Heel on gas, toe on brake.
My way: Heel on brake, toe on top of gas pedal.
Here's what I personally like about the method I'm using. I use my heel to brake on the track all the time now, even when I'm not downshifting. So my brain is used to this. Try braking with your heel in normal driving. It's very weird until you do it a lot. With your foot twisted, the toe now can modulate gas at the top of the gas pedal quite easily. So as you're doing this, you have a good, firm "I ain't slipping off" grip of the brake pedal and can modulate the top of the gas so it's not the "on" "off" feel of hitting the bottom (hinge) part of the pedal. I'll add that I do double clutch during this and it's quite second nature, but I've been doing it for a lot of years.
Another thing I like is that I really don't care how close/far away the brake pedal is from the gas. Height really isn't important either. I can span far distances pretty easily. I've had other racers tell me that my pedals are setup impossible to do heel and toe in my racecar. Never had a problem.
Give each of the 3 methods a shot. Your feet are twice as big as mine :D but one method is bound to work. Oh.....driving shoes help.
jack
| ITWRX4ME | 01-09-2006 01:25 PM |
The only times I've ever truly used heel and toe were when the brake pedal went too far past the throttle to effectively use the side of my foot. It's good to be prepared to do it either way.
| racerjon1 | 01-09-2006 01:30 PM |
Gary pretty much hit it on the head... find whatever way you can to make it right.
The technique probably started out when pedals were far apart and the only way to reach was with your heel on one pedal and toes on the other.. (or with modern Porsche GT cars, which have an extention of the throttle below the brake pedal) Now with more emphasis put on pedal placement we have to figure out new ways of "heel-toe"
Depending on the car I am in, pedal distance, and pedal height, I will use the sides of my foot on each, or even roll over to where my ankle does the throttle blip. (5'8" size 9 shoe)
On a related note, in my Stock Class CRX i stopped wearing driving shoes and would wear a regular running shoe because it was a legal "pedal extention", and helped with downshifts. While in the Neon SSC car, with driving shoes required by the rules, I end up using more of my ankle at times to actually blip the throttle during heel-toe.
Jon K
[url]www.racerjon.com[/url]
The technique probably started out when pedals were far apart and the only way to reach was with your heel on one pedal and toes on the other.. (or with modern Porsche GT cars, which have an extention of the throttle below the brake pedal) Now with more emphasis put on pedal placement we have to figure out new ways of "heel-toe"
Depending on the car I am in, pedal distance, and pedal height, I will use the sides of my foot on each, or even roll over to where my ankle does the throttle blip. (5'8" size 9 shoe)
On a related note, in my Stock Class CRX i stopped wearing driving shoes and would wear a regular running shoe because it was a legal "pedal extention", and helped with downshifts. While in the Neon SSC car, with driving shoes required by the rules, I end up using more of my ankle at times to actually blip the throttle during heel-toe.
Jon K
[url]www.racerjon.com[/url]
| GarySheehan | 01-09-2006 03:04 PM |
[QUOTE=Jack ffr1846]Whoa, buddy!
I'm only a size 8 shoe, so you'll have to figure it out for your size. But there are 3 ways to do heel and toe that I'm aware of. I'm self taught so learned the least common way. However, I'm an instructor and drive a couple dozen students cars every season. I've only had problems with early 2002 and 911's with the floor hinged brake/clutch pedals.
Most common way. Left side of foot on brake, right side of foot blips the throttle.
2nd way: Heel on gas, toe on brake.
My way: Heel on brake, toe on top of gas pedal.
Here's what I personally like about the method I'm using. I use my heel to brake on the track all the time now, even when I'm not downshifting. So my brain is used to this. Try braking with your heel in normal driving. It's very weird until you do it a lot. With your foot twisted, the toe now can modulate gas at the top of the gas pedal quite easily. So as you're doing this, you have a good, firm "I ain't slipping off" grip of the brake pedal and can modulate the top of the gas so it's not the "on" "off" feel of hitting the bottom (hinge) part of the pedal. I'll add that I do double clutch during this and it's quite second nature, but I've been doing it for a lot of years.
Another thing I like is that I really don't care how close/far away the brake pedal is from the gas. Height really isn't important either. I can span far distances pretty easily. I've had other racers tell me that my pedals are setup impossible to do heel and toe in my racecar. Never had a problem.
Give each of the 3 methods a shot. Your feet are twice as big as mine :D but one method is bound to work. Oh.....driving shoes help.
jack[/QUOTE]
Jack,
Your way may work well for you, but it is not the optimal way to use your brakes. I've covered this before, but it's worth another post.
The problem with braking with your heel is that you are using very large muscles to modulate the brakes with. Muscles in your abdomen and upper legs. These musles are great for strength, but pretty poor at fine motor control. So it will be harder to modulate your brakes at the very edge of adhesion.
It's preferable to use the ball of your foot on the brakes because you're using the muscles that control your ankle and toes. These are much better at very fine motor control and have the sensitivity to add fractions of a pound to brake pedal force. Much more effective for threshold braking.
The last thing you should be worried about while braking and downshifting is modulating the gas pedal. Your focus should be on modulating the brake pedal. You blip the throttle on downshifts, no need modulate it.
I used to brake the same way as you describe it prior to going to racing school, where I was taught pretty much what I've written above.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I'm only a size 8 shoe, so you'll have to figure it out for your size. But there are 3 ways to do heel and toe that I'm aware of. I'm self taught so learned the least common way. However, I'm an instructor and drive a couple dozen students cars every season. I've only had problems with early 2002 and 911's with the floor hinged brake/clutch pedals.
Most common way. Left side of foot on brake, right side of foot blips the throttle.
2nd way: Heel on gas, toe on brake.
My way: Heel on brake, toe on top of gas pedal.
Here's what I personally like about the method I'm using. I use my heel to brake on the track all the time now, even when I'm not downshifting. So my brain is used to this. Try braking with your heel in normal driving. It's very weird until you do it a lot. With your foot twisted, the toe now can modulate gas at the top of the gas pedal quite easily. So as you're doing this, you have a good, firm "I ain't slipping off" grip of the brake pedal and can modulate the top of the gas so it's not the "on" "off" feel of hitting the bottom (hinge) part of the pedal. I'll add that I do double clutch during this and it's quite second nature, but I've been doing it for a lot of years.
Another thing I like is that I really don't care how close/far away the brake pedal is from the gas. Height really isn't important either. I can span far distances pretty easily. I've had other racers tell me that my pedals are setup impossible to do heel and toe in my racecar. Never had a problem.
Give each of the 3 methods a shot. Your feet are twice as big as mine :D but one method is bound to work. Oh.....driving shoes help.
jack[/QUOTE]
Jack,
Your way may work well for you, but it is not the optimal way to use your brakes. I've covered this before, but it's worth another post.
The problem with braking with your heel is that you are using very large muscles to modulate the brakes with. Muscles in your abdomen and upper legs. These musles are great for strength, but pretty poor at fine motor control. So it will be harder to modulate your brakes at the very edge of adhesion.
It's preferable to use the ball of your foot on the brakes because you're using the muscles that control your ankle and toes. These are much better at very fine motor control and have the sensitivity to add fractions of a pound to brake pedal force. Much more effective for threshold braking.
The last thing you should be worried about while braking and downshifting is modulating the gas pedal. Your focus should be on modulating the brake pedal. You blip the throttle on downshifts, no need modulate it.
I used to brake the same way as you describe it prior to going to racing school, where I was taught pretty much what I've written above.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| gnarlyWRX | 01-09-2006 03:10 PM |
i personally cant stand wearing teh lightweight thin shoes to drive. i understand that you can feel the pedals more but if you practice using the same shoes all the time then you should become used to using whatever shoe you want. i find wearing my wide a$$ skateboaring shoes work the best for ME. to each his own.
Ryan
Ryan
| racerjon1 | 01-09-2006 03:18 PM |
[QUOTE=gnarlyWRX]i personally cant stand wearing teh lightweight thin shoes to drive. i understand that you can feel the pedals more but if you practice using the same shoes all the time then you should become used to using whatever shoe you want.[/QUOTE]
Till you go roadracing and you have to have nomex/fireproof shoes, or climb in a Formula car and you cant fit your feet down there with the regular shoes on. (got a funrun in a Formula car once and didn't have driving shoes with me.. drove in socks)
Of course fireproof leaves a little open.. leather is counted as fireproof, so you can be like Dave Marcus and drive in wingtips. (Though, from what I understand leather shrinks in heat, and can cause SERIOUS problems when/if there is a fire, so its best to stick to fire retardant shoes and gloves.)
Jon K
[url]www.racerjon.com[/url]
Till you go roadracing and you have to have nomex/fireproof shoes, or climb in a Formula car and you cant fit your feet down there with the regular shoes on. (got a funrun in a Formula car once and didn't have driving shoes with me.. drove in socks)
Of course fireproof leaves a little open.. leather is counted as fireproof, so you can be like Dave Marcus and drive in wingtips. (Though, from what I understand leather shrinks in heat, and can cause SERIOUS problems when/if there is a fire, so its best to stick to fire retardant shoes and gloves.)
Jon K
[url]www.racerjon.com[/url]
| AdvanSTI | 01-09-2006 04:17 PM |
[QUOTE=endeavor]I am 6'3" and wear a size 13. Like I said in the other thread, it was difficult for me at first, but I started out barefoot[/QUOTE]
thats how i started out learning. it was a pain at first but after you get it its pretty simple and became second nature.
First try to do it in like wrestling shoes or in your socks. (unless you have racing shoes) i found that when i toe/heal i roll the ball of myfoot where... (i guess you would call it my big toe knuckle?) for the brake and twist. its not hard to get used to once you get the timing and rythm of it down.
i wouldnt suggest starting out hauling a** down a street and trying to do it when you NEED to make the turn :lol: but try it at lower speeds and only when you're coming up to a stop sign or something. the last thing you want to do is have your foot fall off and have you accelerate right into the car in front of you.
thats how i started out learning. it was a pain at first but after you get it its pretty simple and became second nature.
First try to do it in like wrestling shoes or in your socks. (unless you have racing shoes) i found that when i toe/heal i roll the ball of myfoot where... (i guess you would call it my big toe knuckle?) for the brake and twist. its not hard to get used to once you get the timing and rythm of it down.
i wouldnt suggest starting out hauling a** down a street and trying to do it when you NEED to make the turn :lol: but try it at lower speeds and only when you're coming up to a stop sign or something. the last thing you want to do is have your foot fall off and have you accelerate right into the car in front of you.
| AUTOwrXER | 01-09-2006 04:47 PM |
Forget heel-and-toe. Start learning to left foot brake and clutchless downshift.
| endeavor | 01-09-2006 05:13 PM |
^^^^ Seriously? I haven't heard that recommended on here before. I'm scared of doing it at all, let alone on a road course.
| sciolist | 01-09-2006 05:32 PM |
I think the easiest and most readily adjustable way to heel/toe is to initiate braking with your foot relatively high on the pedal, then rotate your right leg counter-clockwise and throttle up with your heel.
There should be no issue with clearing the steering wheel, because your thigh is moving down faster than it's moving in.
Different relationships between throttle and brake can be accounted for pretty easily by changing the position where your foot meets the brake pedal (eg. move your foot higher if the pedals are closer together or if you have a relatively large foot.
This is not a terribly difficult thing to do, it just takes a little practice.
There should be no issue with clearing the steering wheel, because your thigh is moving down faster than it's moving in.
Different relationships between throttle and brake can be accounted for pretty easily by changing the position where your foot meets the brake pedal (eg. move your foot higher if the pedals are closer together or if you have a relatively large foot.
This is not a terribly difficult thing to do, it just takes a little practice.
| CirrusWRX | 01-09-2006 05:39 PM |
[QUOTE=endeavor]^^^^ Seriously? I haven't heard that recommended on here before. I'm scared of doing it at all, let alone on a road course.[/QUOTE]
I think he was joking
Just make sure you aren't granny shiftin when you're suppsed to be double-clutchin.
I think he was joking
Just make sure you aren't granny shiftin when you're suppsed to be double-clutchin.
| badblackwrx | 01-09-2006 05:48 PM |
When I first started to heel and toe downshift, I did it by pressing on the brake with mainly the top section of my foot more towards the big toe, and hitting the gas by rolling my foot over. I found that this worked good for daily driving, but when I pushed hard I would inadvertently hit the gas and send the rpms to redline (size 11s I guess). I had to retrain myself to put a bit more toe on the brake and a little more heal on the gas and once I was comfortable with turning my foot a little more it started working gloriously.
| zoomfactor | 01-09-2006 07:13 PM |
Sorry this isn't really adding anything of substance, but...next time you are out at an event take a peek at the pedal layout in some of the older European cars. You might notice that the gap between the brake and gas pedal is much smaller than some of the new cars. In fact I have seen layouts where there is barely 3/4" between the edges of the gas & brake pedals.
| GarySheehan | 01-09-2006 07:31 PM |
[QUOTE=zoomfactor]Sorry this isn't really adding anything of substance, but...next time you are out at an event take a peek at the pedal layout in some of the older European cars. You might notice that the gap between the brake and gas pedal is much smaller than some of the new cars. In fact I have seen layouts where there is barely 3/4" between the edges of the gas & brake pedals.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure the $hit that Audi had to endure with all the "uninteded acceleration" crap has trickled into most manufacturers risk reduction policies... :rolleyes:
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I'm sure the $hit that Audi had to endure with all the "uninteded acceleration" crap has trickled into most manufacturers risk reduction policies... :rolleyes:
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| zoomfactor | 01-09-2006 07:34 PM |
I didn't mention Audi, but they were on my mind;)
| Butt Dyno | 01-09-2006 07:40 PM |
What, no link to Gary's footbox video?
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/Footbox%20Small.wmv[/url]
Check it out about 17 seconds in :D
FWIW, I have to "heel/toe" differently in the Miata than in the WRX. In the Miata, I'm using my left toes on the brake, right upper-part of foot on the gas (sort of like "toe/toe"). In the WRX it's more like, ball of foot on brakes, rear right side of foot on the gas.
john
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/Footbox%20Small.wmv[/url]
Check it out about 17 seconds in :D
FWIW, I have to "heel/toe" differently in the Miata than in the WRX. In the Miata, I'm using my left toes on the brake, right upper-part of foot on the gas (sort of like "toe/toe"). In the WRX it's more like, ball of foot on brakes, rear right side of foot on the gas.
john
| super-ru | 01-09-2006 08:07 PM |
Yeah, when I do it, I actually rotate both of my legs, so the are both leaned slightly to the left. I put my brake foot all the way to the left of the brake petal, and as I push it in, I control pressure with the extention of my ankle (skateboarding gave me god like foot control). I've also found that it is extremely important to press on the top half of the brake petal, it seems to give you much better angle to reach the gas, it feels slightly akward at first, but later you'll realize you actually have much better brake feel. Then, while keeping brake pressure in check i touch the bottom of the gas squarely with my heel (use your whole leg for the gas, your using your toes and the balls of the feet on the brake, so your should feel like your lifting up your foot, it's hard to explane). How much pressure you hit the gas with takes alot of pratice, but I've got it to the point where I can quickly stab the gas with my heel and get a perfect rev match for the next lower gear. With pratice, you can fly though the gears.
| endeavor | 01-09-2006 08:58 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno]What, no link to Gary's footbox video?
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/Footbox%20Small.wmv[/url]
Check it out about 17 seconds in :D
[/QUOTE]
I have that video saved on my computer....... Gary must have taken ballet at some point.
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/Footbox%20Small.wmv[/url]
Check it out about 17 seconds in :D
[/QUOTE]
I have that video saved on my computer....... Gary must have taken ballet at some point.
| bratwar | 01-09-2006 09:17 PM |
Nice video. Now I have to learn the double clutch.
| AdvanSTI | 01-10-2006 11:39 AM |
[QUOTE=bratwar]Nice video. Now I have to learn the double clutch.[/QUOTE]
lol... im no pro at double clutch heel & toe.... but i can do it with ease, i just feel like im not hitting the clutch fast enough even tho the timming is right. and i get tired kind of quick.
lol... im no pro at double clutch heel & toe.... but i can do it with ease, i just feel like im not hitting the clutch fast enough even tho the timming is right. and i get tired kind of quick.
| xcdhridr | 01-10-2006 02:34 PM |
I'd like to be able to heal to for the track, but left foot braking helps me the most in the auto-x's. I'm 6'1" with 13.5-14 feet. I can't back my foot turn the right way with regular shoes on. I'm looking to get some real driving shoes soon, but I'll have to change my driving position to do it right (I like having the seat pretty high while racing).
| AUTOwrXER | 01-11-2006 10:54 AM |
[QUOTE=endeavor]^^^^ Seriously? I haven't heard that recommended on here before. I'm scared of doing it at all, let alone on a road course.[/QUOTE]
I was being serious. It's pretty simple once you get used to it, and it's the only solution for LFBers. I've been doing it on two cars since I made the switch to LFBing last year.
As you move to the brakes and unload the transmission, slide the gearshift into nuetral (it should go with very little force if you make the movement at the right time). Once in neutral rev the engine once (I usually overrev slightly to make sure that I get the shift) and apply LIGHT pressure on the gearshift toward the lower gear. As the engine revs match the gearbox speed the gearshift lever will drop right into gear. DO NOT pull hard on the gearshift lever as it will not go in if the engine speed and gearbox speed are not matched; you will grind gears.
If you do it right it's not hard on the transmission. Reving the transmission with the clutch engaged in nuetral is what you should be doing anyway. There are a number of LFBing road racers that use this technique, as well as some autocrossers. I know of one Solo II driver who made a total of 16 shifts per run using this technique while winning a national championship. STis are often caught between 2nd and 3rd on national-level autocross courses, so my goal is to perfect this skill in 2006.
I was being serious. It's pretty simple once you get used to it, and it's the only solution for LFBers. I've been doing it on two cars since I made the switch to LFBing last year.
As you move to the brakes and unload the transmission, slide the gearshift into nuetral (it should go with very little force if you make the movement at the right time). Once in neutral rev the engine once (I usually overrev slightly to make sure that I get the shift) and apply LIGHT pressure on the gearshift toward the lower gear. As the engine revs match the gearbox speed the gearshift lever will drop right into gear. DO NOT pull hard on the gearshift lever as it will not go in if the engine speed and gearbox speed are not matched; you will grind gears.
If you do it right it's not hard on the transmission. Reving the transmission with the clutch engaged in nuetral is what you should be doing anyway. There are a number of LFBing road racers that use this technique, as well as some autocrossers. I know of one Solo II driver who made a total of 16 shifts per run using this technique while winning a national championship. STis are often caught between 2nd and 3rd on national-level autocross courses, so my goal is to perfect this skill in 2006.
| AUTOwrXER | 01-11-2006 10:55 AM |
[QUOTE=xcdhridr]I'd like to be able to heal to for the track, but left foot braking helps me the most in the auto-x's. I'm 6'1" with 13.5-14 feet. I can't back my foot turn the right way with regular shoes on. I'm looking to get some real driving shoes soon, but I'll have to change my driving position to do it right (I like having the seat pretty high while racing).[/QUOTE]
See post above
See post above
| bratwar | 01-12-2006 02:28 AM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I was being serious. It's pretty simple once you get used to it, and it's the only solution for LFBers. I've been doing it on two cars since I made the switch to LFBing last year.
As you move to the brakes and unload the transmission, slide the gearshift into nuetral (it should go with very little force if you make the movement at the right time). Once in neutral rev the engine once (I usually overrev slightly to make sure that I get the shift) and apply LIGHT pressure on the gearshift toward the lower gear. As the engine revs match the gearbox speed the gearshift lever will drop right into gear. DO NOT pull hard on the gearshift lever as it will not go in if the engine speed and gearbox speed are not matched; you will grind gears.
If you do it right it's not hard on the transmission. Reving the transmission with the clutch engaged in nuetral is what you should be doing anyway. There are a number of LFBing road racers that use this technique, as well as some autocrossers. I know of one Solo II driver who made a total of 16 shifts per run using this technique while winning a national championship. STis are often caught between 2nd and 3rd on national-level autocross courses, so my goal is to perfect this skill in 2006.[/QUOTE]
Seems like you trashed several transmission along the way of perfecting your style. Just the thought of the gears grinding makes me quiver. I'll probably just stick with heel & toe and double clutching. But that's my 2 cents.
As you move to the brakes and unload the transmission, slide the gearshift into nuetral (it should go with very little force if you make the movement at the right time). Once in neutral rev the engine once (I usually overrev slightly to make sure that I get the shift) and apply LIGHT pressure on the gearshift toward the lower gear. As the engine revs match the gearbox speed the gearshift lever will drop right into gear. DO NOT pull hard on the gearshift lever as it will not go in if the engine speed and gearbox speed are not matched; you will grind gears.
If you do it right it's not hard on the transmission. Reving the transmission with the clutch engaged in nuetral is what you should be doing anyway. There are a number of LFBing road racers that use this technique, as well as some autocrossers. I know of one Solo II driver who made a total of 16 shifts per run using this technique while winning a national championship. STis are often caught between 2nd and 3rd on national-level autocross courses, so my goal is to perfect this skill in 2006.[/QUOTE]
Seems like you trashed several transmission along the way of perfecting your style. Just the thought of the gears grinding makes me quiver. I'll probably just stick with heel & toe and double clutching. But that's my 2 cents.
| AUTOwrXER | 01-12-2006 03:44 PM |
Never broke a tranny...
Joel (goes to knock on wood)
Joel (goes to knock on wood)
| racerjon1 | 01-12-2006 05:35 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]As you move to the brakes and unload the transmission, slide the gearshift into nuetral (it should go with very little force if you make the movement at the right time). [B]Once in neutral rev the engine once (I usually overrev slightly to make sure that I get the shift)[/B] and apply LIGHT pressure on the gearshift toward the lower gear. As the engine revs match the gearbox speed the gearshift lever will drop right into gear.[/QUOTE]
When I do this, i just dont come all the way off the throttle.. brake, lift slightly 70-80-90% depending on car, and do the same little force that Joel speaks of, and the gear gets "sucked" in. I feel it also saves the itme of pausing in neutral to do the rev, though I doubt there is much time difference.
Jon K
When I do this, i just dont come all the way off the throttle.. brake, lift slightly 70-80-90% depending on car, and do the same little force that Joel speaks of, and the gear gets "sucked" in. I feel it also saves the itme of pausing in neutral to do the rev, though I doubt there is much time difference.
Jon K
| kwh29 | 01-12-2006 06:00 PM |
It's also a good way to get home if your clutch cable breaks in a Beetle... (Or slave cylinder dies in a modern Subaru lol)
--Kevin H.
(never tried Joel's technique when racing. I usually do a little lfb-rfb-lfb dance if I have to shift in mid-corner. It's gotten pretty natural now but when learning it was UGLY)
--Kevin H.
(never tried Joel's technique when racing. I usually do a little lfb-rfb-lfb dance if I have to shift in mid-corner. It's gotten pretty natural now but when learning it was UGLY)
| davis10 | 01-12-2006 08:07 PM |
Just decide on something that feels good to you and stick with it. With enough practice it will become second nature.
| davis10 | 01-12-2006 08:12 PM |
[QUOTE=racerjon1]When I do this, i just dont come all the way off the throttle.. brake, lift slightly 70-80-90% depending on car, and do the same little force that Joel speaks of, and the gear gets "sucked" in. I feel it also saves the itme of pausing in neutral to do the rev, though I doubt there is much time difference.
Jon K[/QUOTE]
Also ... its better once you get good at rev matching then you can get right to the correct RPM and spend less time out of gear. (which is the main downside of clutchless shifting, besides transmission wear. Especially as you start to downshift going into a corner, if you do happen to slide out of gear is not the place you want to be. ;) )
Jon K[/QUOTE]
Also ... its better once you get good at rev matching then you can get right to the correct RPM and spend less time out of gear. (which is the main downside of clutchless shifting, besides transmission wear. Especially as you start to downshift going into a corner, if you do happen to slide out of gear is not the place you want to be. ;) )
| okaythen | 12-05-2007 11:36 PM |
can you guys do heel/toe pretty comfortably in the stock pedal? I am having a hard time doing it I wonder if I need to practice more or need to change the pedals out. do you guys have stock pedals or aftermarekt pedals?
also how long does it take for you guys to do it well everytime. I will be attending a driving school in a month, they teach you heel/toe but I want to master it beforehand.
also how long does it take for you guys to do it well everytime. I will be attending a driving school in a month, they teach you heel/toe but I want to master it beforehand.
| WeldingHank | 12-05-2007 11:55 PM |
I've had very good success with "left side/right side" so to speak. seeing as i wear a size 17 adidas superstar or the same in a converse all-star that both work pretty well for driving.
| remowgn | 12-06-2007 12:09 AM |
[QUOTE=okaythen;20292107]can you guys do heel/toe pretty comfortably in the stock pedal? I am having a hard time doing it I wonder if I need to practice more or need to change the pedals out. do you guys have stock pedals or aftermarekt pedals?
also how long does it take for you guys to do it well everytime. I will be attending a driving school in a month, they teach you heel/toe but I want to master it beforehand.[/QUOTE]
Stock pedals for me... I wear size 11 shoes and i'm 6', but I always drive barefoot. I know, seems weird.... but I wear my flip flops year round here in so cal, and driving with them on is dangerous. I use the ball of my foot on the brake pedal, and depending on how much brake modulation I"m doing, either use my heel or right edge of my foot to hit the gas.
If you get in the habit of doing this while driving around, it truly becomes second nature. You need to get to this point so that when you're on track, you don't have to think about it at each corner. It should just be muscle memory by that point.
also how long does it take for you guys to do it well everytime. I will be attending a driving school in a month, they teach you heel/toe but I want to master it beforehand.[/QUOTE]
Stock pedals for me... I wear size 11 shoes and i'm 6', but I always drive barefoot. I know, seems weird.... but I wear my flip flops year round here in so cal, and driving with them on is dangerous. I use the ball of my foot on the brake pedal, and depending on how much brake modulation I"m doing, either use my heel or right edge of my foot to hit the gas.
If you get in the habit of doing this while driving around, it truly becomes second nature. You need to get to this point so that when you're on track, you don't have to think about it at each corner. It should just be muscle memory by that point.
| Frank A | 12-06-2007 03:10 PM |
Although I don't feel that I've "got it nailed" yet, I will say that at 6' with size 12 shoes, I sympathize. I also started with using the left and right parts of my foot, but found some improvement when I started practicing a habit of keeping my right heel off the floor of the car. I think someone one mentioned this above, and I have to agree that it has helped me. I bought some driving shoes, and they're fine, but a pair of Merrell "hiking sneakers" that I have are rounded just like the driving shoes and work almost as well and don't get stares when I'm around town...
Frank
Frank
| leecea | 12-06-2007 09:28 PM |
I'm 6' and my legs are pretty bent in my normal driving position, so I had to be a bit creative with heel-and-toe. I think I have ended up doing pretty much the same as the last two posters.
If I'm just doing a normal downshift, at low revs, and quick tap with the side of my foot works. For higher rev, heavier braking, I can rotate more of my foot onto the gas pedal.
Amen on the idea of doing it all the time. I rev match every down shift, using heel and toe if I'm also braking. It may seem like overkill, but it is fun and good practice.
I'd suggest learning to rev match first, then moving to heel-and-toe rev matches. Just getting the rev match sequence right can be a big step and trying to do both at once might be hard.
If I'm just doing a normal downshift, at low revs, and quick tap with the side of my foot works. For higher rev, heavier braking, I can rotate more of my foot onto the gas pedal.
Amen on the idea of doing it all the time. I rev match every down shift, using heel and toe if I'm also braking. It may seem like overkill, but it is fun and good practice.
I'd suggest learning to rev match first, then moving to heel-and-toe rev matches. Just getting the rev match sequence right can be a big step and trying to do both at once might be hard.
| fastwrx | 12-19-2007 09:16 AM |
Gary's video is awesome, of course. About a year ago, a friend was getting started in tracking his Porsche GT3 and asked me to describe H-T shifting. Instead, I made a video for him. I'm no Gary Sheehan, but I tried to describe the technique in "layman's terms" as best I could. For this video (and my novice friend), I started with just rev-matching, and then went to heel-toe with single clutching. I haven't gotten around to making a double-clutch video. :)
Here's the video link: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9XXW25GA[/url]
Mike
Here's the video link: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9XXW25GA[/url]
Mike
| 2subiesinyard | 12-19-2007 02:53 PM |
[quote=bratwar;12240370]What I do is that I use the ball of my feet on stepping the brake pedal and then twisting your foot so that your heel hits the gas pedal. If you are tall then lift your foot up more when you are stepping at the brake pedal. Note that your heel shouldn't be hitting the floor.
To practice, on a stop light or in a parking lot, try to step on the brake and then tap the gas pedal. Release and then try again. Your heel shouldn't hit the wall at the right side of the gas pedal. (where the transmission resides).
Driving shoes or like tennis shoes, (anything that doesn't have too much padding at the sole), are recommended since you "feel" the pedals more. Naturally you can do this on a basketball shoes but it's not recommended.[/quote]
Bratwar's got it right. You can practice your heel toe at every stoplight. Just keep trying until you can rest the front of your foot on the brake and twist your leg up and to the right to blip the throttle. I'm in the process of teaching myself to heel-toe as well, and have been practicing for a few months. At first I would accelerate up through 4th gear and heel toe down into second, then up to 4th and down to 2nd...etc...etc.
Now I just do it nice and slow at stop lights and while I rest at stops. There is no need to beat your equipment up practicing. Just do it nice and easy in everyday traffic. Practice practice practice is the key...don't downshift like you did before one day and heel toe the next. Your feet will get confused. Just heel toe.
Don't get fustrated. If you think in your mind you'll never get it, you won't. If you think that you can with practice you will.
It's taken me 3 months of practice, but I'm finally getting smooth...and quick. It will take a few?? many?? more to make it second nature...I have 25 yrs of bad shifting habits to un-learn.
G Luck
To practice, on a stop light or in a parking lot, try to step on the brake and then tap the gas pedal. Release and then try again. Your heel shouldn't hit the wall at the right side of the gas pedal. (where the transmission resides).
Driving shoes or like tennis shoes, (anything that doesn't have too much padding at the sole), are recommended since you "feel" the pedals more. Naturally you can do this on a basketball shoes but it's not recommended.[/quote]
Bratwar's got it right. You can practice your heel toe at every stoplight. Just keep trying until you can rest the front of your foot on the brake and twist your leg up and to the right to blip the throttle. I'm in the process of teaching myself to heel-toe as well, and have been practicing for a few months. At first I would accelerate up through 4th gear and heel toe down into second, then up to 4th and down to 2nd...etc...etc.
Now I just do it nice and slow at stop lights and while I rest at stops. There is no need to beat your equipment up practicing. Just do it nice and easy in everyday traffic. Practice practice practice is the key...don't downshift like you did before one day and heel toe the next. Your feet will get confused. Just heel toe.
Don't get fustrated. If you think in your mind you'll never get it, you won't. If you think that you can with practice you will.
It's taken me 3 months of practice, but I'm finally getting smooth...and quick. It will take a few?? many?? more to make it second nature...I have 25 yrs of bad shifting habits to un-learn.
G Luck
| Mad06STi | 12-19-2007 03:13 PM |
Is there any reason to learn the actual heel-toe method over the left/right side of your foot method?
I've pretty much been downshifting using the left/right sides of my feet for as long as I've been able to drive and do it very naturally now. It hasn't been a problem during any autocrosses and track days but that may be because I've always worn tennis shoes or other shoes with stiff soles.
Is there I reason I should unlearn this and learn the proper way?
I've pretty much been downshifting using the left/right sides of my feet for as long as I've been able to drive and do it very naturally now. It hasn't been a problem during any autocrosses and track days but that may be because I've always worn tennis shoes or other shoes with stiff soles.
Is there I reason I should unlearn this and learn the proper way?
| Ryouga | 12-20-2007 12:59 PM |
[QUOTE=Mad06STi;20449364]I've pretty much been downshifting using the left/right sides of my feet for as long as I've been able to drive and do it very naturally now. It hasn't been a problem during any autocrosses and track days but that may be because I've always worn tennis shoes or other shoes with stiff soles.
Is there I reason I should unlearn this and learn the proper way?[/QUOTE]
No, there isn't, because there is no "proper" way to heel and toe. Different drivers, different bodies, different techniques.
You just gotta do whatever works for you.
And it's not really applicable to this post, but I just love this smiley too much: :diaf:
Is there I reason I should unlearn this and learn the proper way?[/QUOTE]
No, there isn't, because there is no "proper" way to heel and toe. Different drivers, different bodies, different techniques.
You just gotta do whatever works for you.
And it's not really applicable to this post, but I just love this smiley too much: :diaf:
| hyperlitenerd | 12-20-2007 01:38 PM |
I am tall 6'3, and most cars my knees are off to the side, so I have the middle of my foot, the arch, on the brake, and moving my toes to blip the gas. I vary the distance depending on the pedal setup. I just learned to brake with the ball of my foot, so I can swing my foot over to get to the gas, works pretty well.
| GarySheehan | 12-20-2007 04:20 PM |
[QUOTE=hyperlitenerd;20460180]I am tall 6'3, and most cars my knees are off to the side, so I have the middle of my foot, the arch, on the brake, and moving my toes to blip the gas. I vary the distance depending on the pedal setup. I just learned to brake with the ball of my foot, so I can swing my foot over to get to the gas, works pretty well.[/QUOTE]
Bad, bad, BAD!!!!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.garysheehan.com[/url]
Bad, bad, BAD!!!!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.garysheehan.com[/url]
| hyperlitenerd | 12-20-2007 05:47 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan;20462425]Bad, bad, BAD!!!!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.garysheehan.com[/url][/QUOTE]
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
I fail at driving
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.garysheehan.com[/url][/QUOTE]
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
I fail at driving
| XeviousR | 12-21-2007 01:32 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER;12269481] STis are often caught between 2nd and 3rd on national-level autocross courses, so my goal is to perfect this skill in 2006.[/QUOTE]
Okay Joel I'm curious. It is the end of 2007. How did it work out? I don't doubt that this technique is doable, as I can do it, but I doubt it can ever be as fast as a proper heel-toe. Even with great rev-matching and stiff engine/trans/shifter bushings, the transmission (at least in my 04 STi) always has a slight resistance to the clutchless downshift. I'm still a LFBraker but I switch to RFBraking when approaching a corner for heel-toe.
Okay Joel I'm curious. It is the end of 2007. How did it work out? I don't doubt that this technique is doable, as I can do it, but I doubt it can ever be as fast as a proper heel-toe. Even with great rev-matching and stiff engine/trans/shifter bushings, the transmission (at least in my 04 STi) always has a slight resistance to the clutchless downshift. I'm still a LFBraker but I switch to RFBraking when approaching a corner for heel-toe.
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