| Unabomber | 04-03-2006 10:06 AM |
Brake Fluid help
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Howdy folks! I'm looking for some brake fluid knowledge to add to an upcoming Maintenance FAQ that I will be putting together. I have oil and coolant covered, but don't have any real good info on brake fluid yet.
From memory based on prior research for my own car here is the advice I will issue:
1. It may be a good idea to swap two fluid brands amongst fluid changes. The reason for this is Brand A will be of one color and Brand B will be of another color. This will give you a visual indication that you have purged all of the old fluid. This is especially true for those of use that change fluid more frequently than needed or those of us that are lighter on our brake brake fluid and it doesn't get the tell tale darker appearance to it.
2. For 90% of users, stick to OEM or slightly better fluid. Castrol SRF or other "exotic" fluid is a waste on a daily driver.
Please correct either of these two bonehead statements. Remember this is a Maintenance FAQ and while I will discuss from OEM fluid up to Castrol SRF (I may just make a stand alone Brake Fluid FAQ as well depending on length), this post will not be dedicated to Johnny HPDE who tracks every other weekend.
Any help or useful links you folks know of about brake fluid is very much appreciated as it will cut my search time down.
I posted in Motorsports as I'm pretty sure this is where the brake fluid PROS hang out vice the suspension/brake forum. No offense to the suspension/brake forum people though. :)
Ron
From memory based on prior research for my own car here is the advice I will issue:
1. It may be a good idea to swap two fluid brands amongst fluid changes. The reason for this is Brand A will be of one color and Brand B will be of another color. This will give you a visual indication that you have purged all of the old fluid. This is especially true for those of use that change fluid more frequently than needed or those of us that are lighter on our brake brake fluid and it doesn't get the tell tale darker appearance to it.
2. For 90% of users, stick to OEM or slightly better fluid. Castrol SRF or other "exotic" fluid is a waste on a daily driver.
Please correct either of these two bonehead statements. Remember this is a Maintenance FAQ and while I will discuss from OEM fluid up to Castrol SRF (I may just make a stand alone Brake Fluid FAQ as well depending on length), this post will not be dedicated to Johnny HPDE who tracks every other weekend.
Any help or useful links you folks know of about brake fluid is very much appreciated as it will cut my search time down.
I posted in Motorsports as I'm pretty sure this is where the brake fluid PROS hang out vice the suspension/brake forum. No offense to the suspension/brake forum people though. :)
Ron
| trhoppe | 04-03-2006 10:11 AM |
1. Don't switch brands. Just use enough to flush it. 10ish pumps per caliper should be enough to get all the old fluid out of it.
2. While Castrol SRF is super exotic, there are tons of aftermarket brake fluids that are much much better then OEM and will keep you safe if you do some mountain driving or decide to try a track day. ATE Super Blue comes to mind. Motul is also good, but I have read that it is very hygroscopic so it will absorb water fast. While having a better boiliing point then ATE, it can absorb water faster then ATE, so on a "daily driver" or a car that doesn't see brake fluid flushes the ATE might be better.
-Tom
2. While Castrol SRF is super exotic, there are tons of aftermarket brake fluids that are much much better then OEM and will keep you safe if you do some mountain driving or decide to try a track day. ATE Super Blue comes to mind. Motul is also good, but I have read that it is very hygroscopic so it will absorb water fast. While having a better boiliing point then ATE, it can absorb water faster then ATE, so on a "daily driver" or a car that doesn't see brake fluid flushes the ATE might be better.
-Tom
| Scooby South | 04-03-2006 10:31 AM |
Personally...I use Motul....less expensive...and Just as good IMO as the Blue..even tho Hoppe dissagrees...:)...The Local Snap On Tool man sold me a Moisture gauge...Typically...moisture should not exceed 2%....less than 1% being the norm..;)..Oh and I have had my Motul in for about a year...with the gauge still reading less than 1%..
Guage was about $50
Bill
Guage was about $50
Bill
| Unabomber | 04-03-2006 10:33 AM |
Thanks Tom.
I'll probably use your advice plus give the other.
And I'll definately make a note of using a "Stage 1" brake fluid over OEM and not going to the "Stage 2" stuff for most people. :)
I'll probably use your advice plus give the other.
And I'll definately make a note of using a "Stage 1" brake fluid over OEM and not going to the "Stage 2" stuff for most people. :)
| Unabomber | 04-03-2006 10:34 AM |
Moisture Gauge? VERY bling....thanks for the info as I'll add that for the brake fluid dorks that read my write up.
And Bill.....if you look hard enough to the east, you'll see my ship. Were presently off the east coast of Jacksonville. Sucks we aren't pulling in there. I was stationed there for 4 years and would LOVE to go back. :)
And Bill.....if you look hard enough to the east, you'll see my ship. Were presently off the east coast of Jacksonville. Sucks we aren't pulling in there. I was stationed there for 4 years and would LOVE to go back. :)
| Chiketkd | 04-03-2006 10:56 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]1. Don't switch brands. Just use enough to flush it. 10ish pumps per caliper should be enough to get all the old fluid out of it.
2. While Castrol SRF is super exotic, there are tons of aftermarket brake fluids that are much much better then OEM and will keep you safe if you do some mountain driving or decide to try a track day. ATE Super Blue comes to mind. Motul is also good, but I have read that it is very hygroscopic so it will absorb water fast. While having a better boiliing point then ATE, it can absorb water faster then ATE, so on a "daily driver" or a car that doesn't see brake fluid flushes the ATE might be better.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
If you swith from the factory brake fluid to Dot 3/Dot 4 ATE Super Blue, is it necessary to bleed the abs lines as well? Can I just bleed the four calipers?
2. While Castrol SRF is super exotic, there are tons of aftermarket brake fluids that are much much better then OEM and will keep you safe if you do some mountain driving or decide to try a track day. ATE Super Blue comes to mind. Motul is also good, but I have read that it is very hygroscopic so it will absorb water fast. While having a better boiliing point then ATE, it can absorb water faster then ATE, so on a "daily driver" or a car that doesn't see brake fluid flushes the ATE might be better.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
If you swith from the factory brake fluid to Dot 3/Dot 4 ATE Super Blue, is it necessary to bleed the abs lines as well? Can I just bleed the four calipers?
| Scooby South | 04-03-2006 11:04 AM |
[QUOTE=Unabomber]Moisture Gauge? VERY bling....thanks for the info as I'll add that for the brake fluid dorks that read my write up.
And Bill.....if you look hard enough to the east, you'll see my ship. Were presently off the east coast of Jacksonville. Sucks we aren't pulling in there. I was stationed there for 4 years and would LOVE to go back. :)[/QUOTE]
Guess it would be Bling for Some...to me...it tells me when I should consider a Complete Fluid Change instead of a normal Bleed...:)
Kinda Hazy today....so Visiability is about 3-5 miles...nothing Great...
Glad to be able to help...:)
Bill
And Bill.....if you look hard enough to the east, you'll see my ship. Were presently off the east coast of Jacksonville. Sucks we aren't pulling in there. I was stationed there for 4 years and would LOVE to go back. :)[/QUOTE]
Guess it would be Bling for Some...to me...it tells me when I should consider a Complete Fluid Change instead of a normal Bleed...:)
Kinda Hazy today....so Visiability is about 3-5 miles...nothing Great...
Glad to be able to help...:)
Bill
| Scooby South | 04-03-2006 11:05 AM |
[QUOTE=Chiketkd]If you swith from the factory brake fluid to Dot 3/Dot 4 ATE Super Blue, is it necessary to bleed the abs lines as well? Can I just bleed the four calipers?[/QUOTE]
You will need a complete Flush at that point...since Dot 3 is not compatible with Dot 4....
Bill
You will need a complete Flush at that point...since Dot 3 is not compatible with Dot 4....
Bill
| UkNuck | 04-03-2006 11:25 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Motul is also good, but I have read that it is very hygroscopic so it will absorb water fast.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Scooby South]Personally...I use Motul....less expensive...and Just as good IMO as the Blue..even tho Hoppe dissagrees...:)...The Local Snap On Tool man sold me a Moisture gauge...Typically...moisture should not exceed 2%....less than 1% being the norm..;)..Oh and I have had my Motul in for about a year...with the gauge still reading less than 1%..
[/QUOTE]
I presume you guys are talking about the RBF600 here not their regular 5.1?
[QUOTE=Scooby South]Personally...I use Motul....less expensive...and Just as good IMO as the Blue..even tho Hoppe dissagrees...:)...The Local Snap On Tool man sold me a Moisture gauge...Typically...moisture should not exceed 2%....less than 1% being the norm..;)..Oh and I have had my Motul in for about a year...with the gauge still reading less than 1%..
[/QUOTE]
I presume you guys are talking about the RBF600 here not their regular 5.1?
| Scooby South | 04-03-2006 11:45 AM |
^^^^ correct^^^^^
| WRXedUSA | 04-03-2006 11:55 AM |
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=957396&highlight=bleeders[/url]
Here is a discussion earlier that we had going through a few fluids and SpeedBleeders which make life easier.
Might want to mention that the STi Brembo's have a nipple on the inward caliper too. I seemed to have forgot that last time I bled brakes! :mad:
Here is a discussion earlier that we had going through a few fluids and SpeedBleeders which make life easier.
Might want to mention that the STi Brembo's have a nipple on the inward caliper too. I seemed to have forgot that last time I bled brakes! :mad:
| trhoppe | 04-03-2006 12:03 PM |
Since when is Motul LESS expensive? Its roughly 2x the price of ATE.
I'm not saying its bad, and I will more then likely be switching to it for the race car just to make sure I have that boiling point celieing, but I flush the fluid once a weekend, so I'm not your average daily driver.
-Tom
I'm not saying its bad, and I will more then likely be switching to it for the race car just to make sure I have that boiling point celieing, but I flush the fluid once a weekend, so I'm not your average daily driver.
-Tom
| Scooby South | 04-03-2006 12:11 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Since when is Motul LESS expensive? Its roughly 2x the price of ATE.
I'm not saying its bad, and I will more then likely be switching to it for the race car just to make sure I have that boiling point celieing, but I flush the fluid once a weekend, so I'm not your average daily driver.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
ATE is how much????
Motul is Retail....$15 a pint...
I'm not saying its bad, and I will more then likely be switching to it for the race car just to make sure I have that boiling point celieing, but I flush the fluid once a weekend, so I'm not your average daily driver.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
ATE is how much????
Motul is Retail....$15 a pint...
| WRXedUSA | 04-03-2006 12:29 PM |
ATE= 16 clams a liter.
2 pints in a liter.
Advantage ATE.
[url]http://www.machv.com/atesublrabrf.html[/url]
[url]http://www.fastwrx.com/morbf600fali.html[/url]
2 pints in a liter.
Advantage ATE.
[url]http://www.machv.com/atesublrabrf.html[/url]
[url]http://www.fastwrx.com/morbf600fali.html[/url]
| trhoppe | 04-03-2006 12:41 PM |
$16 is expensive, I get mine for $9/liter.
-Tom
-Tom
| WRXedUSA | 04-03-2006 12:57 PM |
do tell..... :D
| trhoppe | 04-03-2006 01:05 PM |
[url]http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=ATESB[/url]
or
[url]http://www.ogracing.com/eshop/home.asp?categ=68[/url]
Sorry, 9.95 :)
-Tom
or
[url]http://www.ogracing.com/eshop/home.asp?categ=68[/url]
Sorry, 9.95 :)
-Tom
| Chiketkd | 04-03-2006 02:58 PM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South]You will need a complete Flush at that point...since Dot 3 is not compatible with Dot 4....
Bill[/QUOTE]
Thanks! :cool:
Bill[/QUOTE]
Thanks! :cool:
| Unabomber | 04-03-2006 03:08 PM |
Thanks for the help so far, keep it coming. Especially for the bleeder info thread. I plan on making a note about picking up one of the hand pump thingies too. We use them in VA Beach as having someone pumping the brakes is for the birds.
| TubeDriver | 04-03-2006 03:30 PM |
People might also want to consider Valvoline Synpower Dot3/4 brake fluid. Cost is about $3. Available everywhere (Pepboys, Autozone etc). It has wet and dry boiling points almost as high as ATE.
I just did two days at Shenandoah (Summit Point) in an STI with Carbotech XP8s. No problems at the track. Bled my brakes after the event and the fluid looked perfectly clear.
I have used it on the track with several other cars for years now and have never had a brake fluid related failure.
[edit] I did notice that the OEM Subaru factory fill brake fluid was FULL of whitish particulate. This is in a new car with 1700 street miles and a few autoXs. Flushed the system to get rid of the white stuff. I also heard that another person running an STI at SP that day had the factory OEM fluid boil leading to an off. When they did a trackside brake bleed, they found brownish, burnt looking fluid with the same whitish particulate in it.
I just did two days at Shenandoah (Summit Point) in an STI with Carbotech XP8s. No problems at the track. Bled my brakes after the event and the fluid looked perfectly clear.
I have used it on the track with several other cars for years now and have never had a brake fluid related failure.
[edit] I did notice that the OEM Subaru factory fill brake fluid was FULL of whitish particulate. This is in a new car with 1700 street miles and a few autoXs. Flushed the system to get rid of the white stuff. I also heard that another person running an STI at SP that day had the factory OEM fluid boil leading to an off. When they did a trackside brake bleed, they found brownish, burnt looking fluid with the same whitish particulate in it.
| Jack | 04-03-2006 03:49 PM |
Ron,
About 2 years ago, I did research on the available brake fluids at the time. Since I was mainly concerned with use only on the track, my research was looking for what to use based on dry boiling point.
Search my name and "the brake fluid thread" in NESIC to get that data. Certainly newer data exists, but the fact that anyone would even consider using Super Blue on the track tells me that many people do not read the labels.
In short, I found Ford HD, Super Blue and some lower level Wilwood and Motul to hover in the lower 500F dry boiling point range. Motul 600 about 595 and Wilwood exp600 at 635. I bought a case of Wilwood exp600 ($300 some odd a case) and use it in my racecar.
If you replace a M/C or have trouble getting a soft pedal dispite flushing the fluid and bleeding, you may need to bleed the M/C separately. Last year we found significant air in an RX8 after he had bled several liters through the calipers.
Also.....DOT 5 is crap for track use. It is silicone. It requires ALL NEW brake components and it's only advantage is that it doesn't eat paint. Good for a Harley with a $30k paint job. Bad for the track.
jack
About 2 years ago, I did research on the available brake fluids at the time. Since I was mainly concerned with use only on the track, my research was looking for what to use based on dry boiling point.
Search my name and "the brake fluid thread" in NESIC to get that data. Certainly newer data exists, but the fact that anyone would even consider using Super Blue on the track tells me that many people do not read the labels.
In short, I found Ford HD, Super Blue and some lower level Wilwood and Motul to hover in the lower 500F dry boiling point range. Motul 600 about 595 and Wilwood exp600 at 635. I bought a case of Wilwood exp600 ($300 some odd a case) and use it in my racecar.
If you replace a M/C or have trouble getting a soft pedal dispite flushing the fluid and bleeding, you may need to bleed the M/C separately. Last year we found significant air in an RX8 after he had bled several liters through the calipers.
Also.....DOT 5 is crap for track use. It is silicone. It requires ALL NEW brake components and it's only advantage is that it doesn't eat paint. Good for a Harley with a $30k paint job. Bad for the track.
jack
| flyboymike | 04-03-2006 03:53 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]... so I'm not your average daily driver.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
And the understatement of the year award goes to... :)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
And the understatement of the year award goes to... :)
| Rev1 | 04-03-2006 03:56 PM |
[QUOTE=TubeDriver]People might also want to consider Valvoline Synpower Dot3/4 brake fluid. Cost is about $3. Available everywhere (Pepboys, Autozone etc). It has wet and dry boiling points almost as high as ATE.
[/QUOTE]
My vote goes for Valvoline SynPower as well, good for a daily driver brake fluid :)
[/QUOTE]
My vote goes for Valvoline SynPower as well, good for a daily driver brake fluid :)
| rex n effect | 04-03-2006 04:38 PM |
[QUOTE=Rev1]My vote goes for Valvoline SynPower as well, good for a daily driver brake fluid :)[/QUOTE]
Gets my vote also for good mass market fluid. It's definitely better than most stuff available at any auto parts store. You'll cook your high perf street brake pads well before you'll have any fluid boiling.
Gets my vote also for good mass market fluid. It's definitely better than most stuff available at any auto parts store. You'll cook your high perf street brake pads well before you'll have any fluid boiling.
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 04-03-2006 10:21 PM |
Hello,
In a similar thread (hee hee... telling the FAQ-master to 'search' :D), I suggested reading up this link over at StopTech's website:
[url]http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakefluid_1a.shtml[/url] (updated link since they re-did their website).
My thoughts on fluids:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=777093[/url]
[quote=Joel Gat, 1.8L]I'll "third" the Synpower suggestion. It's a great cheap brake fluid. Let's see if I can make this chart look right: (BP = boiling point, and these are all my data, I've seen different prices, different boiling points, etc., but it gives you a rough idea)
Fluid...............Dry BP....Wet BP....Cost/oz
DOT 3 Spec......401........284
DOT 4 Spec......446........311
DOT 5 Spec......500........346
Synpower.........513........333........$0.15
ATE 200/S.Blue..536........392........$0.29
Motul DOT 5.1...509........365........$0.70
Motul R'cing600.585.........421.......$0.72
Castrol SRF.......590........518........$1.86
So as you can see, Synpower is way above DOT4, and right there with most of the racing fluids. SRF is a whole new magnitude of performance and what we used, exclusively, on the racecar. But it's a little pricey.
[/quote]
The "we" refers to the WRX that Gary and I ran, back in 'the day'. :)
Joel
In a similar thread (hee hee... telling the FAQ-master to 'search' :D), I suggested reading up this link over at StopTech's website:
[url]http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakefluid_1a.shtml[/url] (updated link since they re-did their website).
My thoughts on fluids:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=777093[/url]
[quote=Joel Gat, 1.8L]I'll "third" the Synpower suggestion. It's a great cheap brake fluid. Let's see if I can make this chart look right: (BP = boiling point, and these are all my data, I've seen different prices, different boiling points, etc., but it gives you a rough idea)
Fluid...............Dry BP....Wet BP....Cost/oz
DOT 3 Spec......401........284
DOT 4 Spec......446........311
DOT 5 Spec......500........346
Synpower.........513........333........$0.15
ATE 200/S.Blue..536........392........$0.29
Motul DOT 5.1...509........365........$0.70
Motul R'cing600.585.........421.......$0.72
Castrol SRF.......590........518........$1.86
So as you can see, Synpower is way above DOT4, and right there with most of the racing fluids. SRF is a whole new magnitude of performance and what we used, exclusively, on the racecar. But it's a little pricey.
[/quote]
The "we" refers to the WRX that Gary and I ran, back in 'the day'. :)
Joel
| silver arrow | 04-03-2006 10:34 PM |
I bought a performance car and wouldn't consider using anything but the best when it comes time to change fluids. The Castrol doesn't seem that bad of a price considering it is right up there with all the other fluids Dry BP even at its Wet BP. Seem like a deal to me.
| ChrisDP | 04-03-2006 10:36 PM |
Ford HD is rated at 550 degrees dry BP/290 degrees wet BP. The wet BP is less than some of the others, but it's cheap, available at any Ford dealership (I have 3 within 15 minutes of my house), and more heat-resistant than ATE when it's kept fresh.
| Robin2 | 04-03-2006 10:46 PM |
I use motul rbf 600 for (hpde/solo2) (april-october) and motul 5.1 (winter months since I see -20 to -40 celcius in Canada.... except this winter was a nice one.... not cold at all).
| Todd TCE | 04-03-2006 10:55 PM |
Ron,
I don't think your original statement is incorrect in any way. Many folks DO spend more than need be on 'performance' fluid when something cheap will do the same job.
I've said for years (and others seem to now echo this) that puchasing fluid beyond that which you need is simply not needed. "If you don't boil what you have now, you don't need a higher BP fluid". At that even the real guys who need it, need it on a given day- not all the time.
I sell a couple of the fluids you mention and while on a hard use oval perhaps I can argue the value of one of them, the other is still beyond the requirement of most users. What's really funny is that most who shop the fluid are doing so with the purchase of a more efficient brake system! If the system is more effiecient at thermal management, the value or need for more stable fluid temps is reversed. It's the poor sap with stock brakes on a road racing course who can benefit the most! Not the guy with the OS rotors, aluminum calipers and fat pads.
Reality is that marketing sells fluid. If 400 is good then 500 must be better. Or even 600! Now THAT must reeeally be the way to go. But if you run a stable 300* and have no issue all your'e getting is bragging rights. Of course that sells more fluid....hmm.
Think of this as coffee. At 150 some will say that this makes the best temp as the taste is the most pure. At 130 it's taste is compromised. Never mind the fact that you cannot drink it until it gets to maybe 105.Still the shop that stores it the hottest says theirs is the best! Ok, so maybe it degrades some at 120 but so to does the high BP fluid with regard to its temp vs water volume.
I don't think your original statement is incorrect in any way. Many folks DO spend more than need be on 'performance' fluid when something cheap will do the same job.
I've said for years (and others seem to now echo this) that puchasing fluid beyond that which you need is simply not needed. "If you don't boil what you have now, you don't need a higher BP fluid". At that even the real guys who need it, need it on a given day- not all the time.
I sell a couple of the fluids you mention and while on a hard use oval perhaps I can argue the value of one of them, the other is still beyond the requirement of most users. What's really funny is that most who shop the fluid are doing so with the purchase of a more efficient brake system! If the system is more effiecient at thermal management, the value or need for more stable fluid temps is reversed. It's the poor sap with stock brakes on a road racing course who can benefit the most! Not the guy with the OS rotors, aluminum calipers and fat pads.
Reality is that marketing sells fluid. If 400 is good then 500 must be better. Or even 600! Now THAT must reeeally be the way to go. But if you run a stable 300* and have no issue all your'e getting is bragging rights. Of course that sells more fluid....hmm.
Think of this as coffee. At 150 some will say that this makes the best temp as the taste is the most pure. At 130 it's taste is compromised. Never mind the fact that you cannot drink it until it gets to maybe 105.Still the shop that stores it the hottest says theirs is the best! Ok, so maybe it degrades some at 120 but so to does the high BP fluid with regard to its temp vs water volume.
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 04-03-2006 11:01 PM |
Hello,
I agree with Todd, which is why I said I use SynPower for most of my cars. Heck, I can get most fluids at a discount to make the price not really an issue (aside from SRF), but why?
Incidentally, silver_arrow, although $1.86 an ounce doesn't sound like much, don't forget that SRF comes in liter cans only, and a can sells for at least $63, though I've seen it for much more at local shops.
Personally, I don't like leaving brake fluid open for long... if you use a lot of it and you flush your system regularly, you can leave some open brake fluid around. But instead, I get reasonably priced stuff, use it, and if I'm not going to use the rest in the next couple months, give it away to any friend doing a brake job...
Joel
I agree with Todd, which is why I said I use SynPower for most of my cars. Heck, I can get most fluids at a discount to make the price not really an issue (aside from SRF), but why?
Incidentally, silver_arrow, although $1.86 an ounce doesn't sound like much, don't forget that SRF comes in liter cans only, and a can sells for at least $63, though I've seen it for much more at local shops.
Personally, I don't like leaving brake fluid open for long... if you use a lot of it and you flush your system regularly, you can leave some open brake fluid around. But instead, I get reasonably priced stuff, use it, and if I'm not going to use the rest in the next couple months, give it away to any friend doing a brake job...
Joel
| adhowe70 | 04-04-2006 12:06 AM |
I agree with Joel and others. I use the SynPower for the same reasons.
| Scooby South | 04-04-2006 08:03 AM |
[QUOTE][QUOTE=trhoppe]... so I'm not your average daily driver.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
And the understatement of the year award goes to... :)[/QUOTE]
Quoted for Future harassment...;)..
I agree with Joel, Todd and the like...but I will say this...Being on the "other" end of this as a Retailer....People See Motul on the WRC ....and Guess What...They Want Motul....so I am happy to oblige...and if your going to quibble about $30....Then what about your Oil or Gas...Do You Cheap out there too???... To Me Brakes are a Important part of this Equation...Someone Once told me..."If you have all this HP and no brakes....then your car isn't any better than a 1970 Camaro...." Porsche uses the Good Stuff...and their Brakes are World Renowned...About any other Topend manufactor uses the good stuff...why would you want to cheap out on it...makes no sense...
Just wondering...;)
Not wanting a flame war.....just My opinion
Bill
-Tom[/QUOTE]
And the understatement of the year award goes to... :)[/QUOTE]
Quoted for Future harassment...;)..
I agree with Joel, Todd and the like...but I will say this...Being on the "other" end of this as a Retailer....People See Motul on the WRC ....and Guess What...They Want Motul....so I am happy to oblige...and if your going to quibble about $30....Then what about your Oil or Gas...Do You Cheap out there too???... To Me Brakes are a Important part of this Equation...Someone Once told me..."If you have all this HP and no brakes....then your car isn't any better than a 1970 Camaro...." Porsche uses the Good Stuff...and their Brakes are World Renowned...About any other Topend manufactor uses the good stuff...why would you want to cheap out on it...makes no sense...
Just wondering...;)
Not wanting a flame war.....just My opinion
Bill
| Todd TCE | 04-04-2006 09:30 AM |
Bill,
Your comparing to fuel is probably better than my coffee I guess! But on the other hand fuel is, or can be, classified in the same boat. When I'm at the track with some customer cars (open wheel cars; FF, FM, FC, etc.) there is often a rush to purchase "race gas" as this is sold there and must be the thing to use.
Actually many of these cars cannot use race gas with much higher octane ratings to any great extent. However because they sell some fuel with a 110 rating it's viewed as better. In a 9:1cr motor or a rotary it's a total waste of money and in fact has a slower burn than it needs to because of of the lack of 'bang' needed to unlock it's benefits. In reality the street fuel at the 7-11 with a lowly 91 and its oxygenates produces a far better burn.
So while I agreee that putting quality products in a car cannot be bad, and certainly I agree that good marketing sells, it's not rightly fair to declare one product to be better or cheap over another. Often the results do little or nothing to improve things. I would not consider it "cheaping out" but rather buying within your needs. Buying race tires would make your car handle far better than street tires. But few run slicks on the street, would they be cheaping out? It's the old debate of what is "best" for my car etc.
....back to brake fluid now....
Your comparing to fuel is probably better than my coffee I guess! But on the other hand fuel is, or can be, classified in the same boat. When I'm at the track with some customer cars (open wheel cars; FF, FM, FC, etc.) there is often a rush to purchase "race gas" as this is sold there and must be the thing to use.
Actually many of these cars cannot use race gas with much higher octane ratings to any great extent. However because they sell some fuel with a 110 rating it's viewed as better. In a 9:1cr motor or a rotary it's a total waste of money and in fact has a slower burn than it needs to because of of the lack of 'bang' needed to unlock it's benefits. In reality the street fuel at the 7-11 with a lowly 91 and its oxygenates produces a far better burn.
So while I agreee that putting quality products in a car cannot be bad, and certainly I agree that good marketing sells, it's not rightly fair to declare one product to be better or cheap over another. Often the results do little or nothing to improve things. I would not consider it "cheaping out" but rather buying within your needs. Buying race tires would make your car handle far better than street tires. But few run slicks on the street, would they be cheaping out? It's the old debate of what is "best" for my car etc.
....back to brake fluid now....
| Scooby South | 04-04-2006 09:53 AM |
[QUOTE=Todd TCE]Bill,
Your comparing to fuel is probably better than my coffee I guess! But on the other hand fuel is, or can be, classified in the same boat. When I'm at the track with some customer cars (open wheel cars; FF, FM, FC, etc.) there is often a rush to purchase "race gas" as this is sold there and must be the thing to use.
Actually many of these cars cannot use race gas with much higher octane ratings to any great extent. However because they sell some fuel with a 110 rating it's viewed as better. In a 9:1cr motor or a rotary it's a total waste of money and in fact has a slower burn than it needs to because of of the lack of 'bang' needed to unlock it's benefits. In reality the street fuel at the 7-11 with a lowly 91 and its oxygenates produces a far better burn.
So while I agreee that putting quality products in a car cannot be bad, and certainly I agree that good marketing sells, it's not rightly fair to declare one product to be better or cheap over another. Often the results do little or nothing to improve things. I would not consider it "cheaping out" but rather buying within your needs. Buying race tires would make your car handle far better than street tires. But few run slicks on the street, would they be cheaping out? It's the old debate of what is "best" for my car etc.
....back to brake fluid now....[/QUOTE]
Well said and agree'd...:D
Your comparing to fuel is probably better than my coffee I guess! But on the other hand fuel is, or can be, classified in the same boat. When I'm at the track with some customer cars (open wheel cars; FF, FM, FC, etc.) there is often a rush to purchase "race gas" as this is sold there and must be the thing to use.
Actually many of these cars cannot use race gas with much higher octane ratings to any great extent. However because they sell some fuel with a 110 rating it's viewed as better. In a 9:1cr motor or a rotary it's a total waste of money and in fact has a slower burn than it needs to because of of the lack of 'bang' needed to unlock it's benefits. In reality the street fuel at the 7-11 with a lowly 91 and its oxygenates produces a far better burn.
So while I agreee that putting quality products in a car cannot be bad, and certainly I agree that good marketing sells, it's not rightly fair to declare one product to be better or cheap over another. Often the results do little or nothing to improve things. I would not consider it "cheaping out" but rather buying within your needs. Buying race tires would make your car handle far better than street tires. But few run slicks on the street, would they be cheaping out? It's the old debate of what is "best" for my car etc.
....back to brake fluid now....[/QUOTE]
Well said and agree'd...:D
| silver arrow | 04-04-2006 11:36 AM |
[QUOTE=Joel Gat, 1.8L]Hello,
I agree with Todd, which is why I said I use SynPower for most of my cars. Heck, I can get most fluids at a discount to make the price not really an issue (aside from SRF), but why?
Incidentally, silver_arrow, although $1.86 an ounce doesn't sound like much, don't forget that SRF comes in liter cans only, and a can sells for at least $63, though I've seen it for much more at local shops.
Personally, I don't like leaving brake fluid open for long... if you use a lot of it and you flush your system regularly, you can leave some open brake fluid around. But instead, I get reasonably priced stuff, use it, and if I'm not going to use the rest in the next couple months, give it away to any friend doing a brake job...
Joel[/QUOTE]
Subarus usually travel in packs. They are social animals and often share resources. Sorry been watching the Animal Channel lately. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I agree with Todd, which is why I said I use SynPower for most of my cars. Heck, I can get most fluids at a discount to make the price not really an issue (aside from SRF), but why?
Incidentally, silver_arrow, although $1.86 an ounce doesn't sound like much, don't forget that SRF comes in liter cans only, and a can sells for at least $63, though I've seen it for much more at local shops.
Personally, I don't like leaving brake fluid open for long... if you use a lot of it and you flush your system regularly, you can leave some open brake fluid around. But instead, I get reasonably priced stuff, use it, and if I'm not going to use the rest in the next couple months, give it away to any friend doing a brake job...
Joel[/QUOTE]
Subarus usually travel in packs. They are social animals and often share resources. Sorry been watching the Animal Channel lately. :lol: :lol: :lol:
| STiTuner | 04-04-2006 11:53 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]1. Don't switch brands. Just use enough to flush it. 10ish pumps per caliper should be enough to get all the old fluid out of it.
2. While Castrol SRF is super exotic, there are tons of aftermarket brake fluids that are much much better then OEM and will keep you safe if you do some mountain driving or decide to try a track day. ATE Super Blue comes to mind. Motul is also good, but I have read that it is very hygroscopic so it will absorb water fast. While having a better boiliing point then ATE, it can absorb water faster then ATE, so on a "daily driver" or a car that doesn't see brake fluid flushes the ATE might be better.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Have you looked at or tried Fords OE brake fluid? hint hint nudge nudge
2. While Castrol SRF is super exotic, there are tons of aftermarket brake fluids that are much much better then OEM and will keep you safe if you do some mountain driving or decide to try a track day. ATE Super Blue comes to mind. Motul is also good, but I have read that it is very hygroscopic so it will absorb water fast. While having a better boiliing point then ATE, it can absorb water faster then ATE, so on a "daily driver" or a car that doesn't see brake fluid flushes the ATE might be better.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Have you looked at or tried Fords OE brake fluid? hint hint nudge nudge
| Scooby South | 04-04-2006 12:15 PM |
[QUOTE=STiTuner]Have you looked at or tried Fords OE brake fluid? hint hint nudge nudge[/QUOTE]
yeah..the old skool autox trick....Ford HD Brake fluid for I forgot what year trucks...because Ford Engineers made the Brake lines to close to the exhaust....so instead of redoing the lines...they just went to a more resilient fluid.....oh yeah....its made be ATE...:)..
Bill
yeah..the old skool autox trick....Ford HD Brake fluid for I forgot what year trucks...because Ford Engineers made the Brake lines to close to the exhaust....so instead of redoing the lines...they just went to a more resilient fluid.....oh yeah....its made be ATE...:)..
Bill
| Foxy | 04-04-2006 02:27 PM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South]You will need a complete Flush at that point...since Dot 3 is not compatible with Dot 4....
Bill[/QUOTE]
Wait, that's not true.. is it?
I thought DOT 3/4/5.1 was compatible, and DOT 5 was the odd duck out.
[quote]Might want to mention that the STi Brembo's have a nipple on the inward caliper too. I seemed to have forgot that last time I bled brakes! [/quote]
You're not the only one :( I've done that too!
Bill[/QUOTE]
Wait, that's not true.. is it?
I thought DOT 3/4/5.1 was compatible, and DOT 5 was the odd duck out.
[quote]Might want to mention that the STi Brembo's have a nipple on the inward caliper too. I seemed to have forgot that last time I bled brakes! [/quote]
You're not the only one :( I've done that too!
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 04-04-2006 03:11 PM |
Hello,
Foxy, you are correct, DOT 3, 4, 5.1 are compatible. You can usually mix brake fluids, but you should consider your specs to be the specs of the worst fluid in the mix.
Joel
Foxy, you are correct, DOT 3, 4, 5.1 are compatible. You can usually mix brake fluids, but you should consider your specs to be the specs of the worst fluid in the mix.
Joel
| Jack | 04-04-2006 03:27 PM |
[QUOTE=Todd TCE] "If you don't boil what you have now, you don't need a higher BP fluid". [/QUOTE]
Excellent quote! I say this all the time. I do spend the $20 per 1/2 L on my racecar fluid because I came from years of Showroom stock where I boiled fluid every event. Stock brake components and ducts were illegal.
In my street cars, I go to Wal*Mart and pick up the absolute cheapest fluid they have.
jack
Excellent quote! I say this all the time. I do spend the $20 per 1/2 L on my racecar fluid because I came from years of Showroom stock where I boiled fluid every event. Stock brake components and ducts were illegal.
In my street cars, I go to Wal*Mart and pick up the absolute cheapest fluid they have.
jack
| WRXedUSA | 04-05-2006 12:09 AM |
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/1fstwrx/RedHotBrembos.jpg[/IMG]
| 8Complex | 04-05-2006 10:08 AM |
Hey Ron -
Why not try the FAQ's in appropriate forums for info? ;)
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=159647[/url]
Why not try the FAQ's in appropriate forums for info? ;)
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=159647[/url]
| TubeDriver | 04-05-2006 11:54 AM |
I guess I opened the can of worms with my statement about Volvoline synpower. I have not had any issues with it over the years and since it is so cheap I flush my brakes before and after every track event. I'll take my 2-3 day old, fresh Synpower over someones older, somewhat used ATE/MOTUL any day of the year. ;)
| Foxy | 04-05-2006 12:17 PM |
That glowing brake picture is [i]awesome[/i]. Any story behind that?
| infantsam | 04-05-2006 12:38 PM |
well
$275 for admission for the weekend
$250 and up for hotel/food
$100 for gas
and the list goes on....
Is saving a few bucks on less expensive fluid really helping? If you boil it you potentially:
-go off and crash your car/get injured/killed/kill someone else
-miss out on a session which are about 50-60/per
and a number of other much more costly and dangerous things
It gets tiring to hear...."You don't need that - that's too much etc."
While often that is true - the point is I don't want to 'creep up' on what is enough for me/my car/my driving. I want to 'creep down' and find the floor without any of those potentially really bad things happening. I experienced pretty severe brake fade at Shenadoah last weekend coming into the loop. It is simply something I won't tolerate as I learn to drive better. I'm a nOOb darnit - I'm not good at picking braking points precisely, hitting them and managing the resources of my car. That's why I go to these events - to learn that. And while I learn that I'm going to want more brakes than I need. Whern I get better and know how to decide I may try to economize - but not yet.
I'd feel pretty darn stupid if I spent 6-700 getting there and a $20 bottle of decent brake fluid or a $150 set of decent pads kept me from driving.
So I'll stick with the ATE till I can be sure that something a little cheaper will do the job - or find I need something better. It's also easier for me to get - it gets delivered so I don't have to spend $0.50/mile driving to the Ford dealer (my second worst nightmare anyway) and waste time to 'save' $8
What I really wish was that someone would make a container that was easy to pour in the MC without needing a funnel. The ATE can is awful. I dunno if the Motul plastic bottle w/ neck is easier but I'd likely buy it instead of ATE if I knew that to be the case. I think the slightly necked cans that the Ford stuff comes in are pretty clean.
I suppose thats OT a bit - but I think it would be irresponsible to tell a beginner that his 300HP STi will do just fine at a track day with street fluid/pads. There is no 'should be ok' in brakes or other safety items. Other people read these posts and take it as gospel because they don't trust the vendors selling those products.
carry on - I'll be interested to see the FAQ.
$275 for admission for the weekend
$250 and up for hotel/food
$100 for gas
and the list goes on....
Is saving a few bucks on less expensive fluid really helping? If you boil it you potentially:
-go off and crash your car/get injured/killed/kill someone else
-miss out on a session which are about 50-60/per
and a number of other much more costly and dangerous things
It gets tiring to hear...."You don't need that - that's too much etc."
While often that is true - the point is I don't want to 'creep up' on what is enough for me/my car/my driving. I want to 'creep down' and find the floor without any of those potentially really bad things happening. I experienced pretty severe brake fade at Shenadoah last weekend coming into the loop. It is simply something I won't tolerate as I learn to drive better. I'm a nOOb darnit - I'm not good at picking braking points precisely, hitting them and managing the resources of my car. That's why I go to these events - to learn that. And while I learn that I'm going to want more brakes than I need. Whern I get better and know how to decide I may try to economize - but not yet.
I'd feel pretty darn stupid if I spent 6-700 getting there and a $20 bottle of decent brake fluid or a $150 set of decent pads kept me from driving.
So I'll stick with the ATE till I can be sure that something a little cheaper will do the job - or find I need something better. It's also easier for me to get - it gets delivered so I don't have to spend $0.50/mile driving to the Ford dealer (my second worst nightmare anyway) and waste time to 'save' $8
What I really wish was that someone would make a container that was easy to pour in the MC without needing a funnel. The ATE can is awful. I dunno if the Motul plastic bottle w/ neck is easier but I'd likely buy it instead of ATE if I knew that to be the case. I think the slightly necked cans that the Ford stuff comes in are pretty clean.
I suppose thats OT a bit - but I think it would be irresponsible to tell a beginner that his 300HP STi will do just fine at a track day with street fluid/pads. There is no 'should be ok' in brakes or other safety items. Other people read these posts and take it as gospel because they don't trust the vendors selling those products.
carry on - I'll be interested to see the FAQ.
| 8Complex | 04-05-2006 12:43 PM |
There is no need to worry about the cheaper fluid with the lower wet boiling point if it's just been changed. If it's old, yes worry, if it's fresh, you're perfectly fine.
| rupertberr | 04-05-2006 12:49 PM |
What's the shelf life for unopened brake fluid?
I am finally running down to the last couple of bottles of Wilwood 570 that have been sitting on my shelf for at least five years now. It should still be good right? I only change my fluid once a year and bought way too much in one shot.
I am finally running down to the last couple of bottles of Wilwood 570 that have been sitting on my shelf for at least five years now. It should still be good right? I only change my fluid once a year and bought way too much in one shot.
| infantsam | 04-05-2006 12:55 PM |
[QUOTE=rupertberr]What's the shelf life for unopened brake fluid?
I am finally running down to the last couple of bottles of Wilwood 570 that have been sitting on my shelf for at least five years now. It should still be good right? I only change my fluid once a year and bought way too much in one shot.[/QUOTE]
You should get that answer from Wilwood - or Todd/TCE. I think it's ok as long as the can is sealed but get the answer from someone who KNOWS.
I am finally running down to the last couple of bottles of Wilwood 570 that have been sitting on my shelf for at least five years now. It should still be good right? I only change my fluid once a year and bought way too much in one shot.[/QUOTE]
You should get that answer from Wilwood - or Todd/TCE. I think it's ok as long as the can is sealed but get the answer from someone who KNOWS.
| desert pirate | 04-05-2006 01:13 PM |
On the stock breaks I would probably be getting mad fade before I would biol the fluid, also I heared from a trusted mechanic that wasn't trying to make a sale that high end break fluid can get thick and clog up, he didn't mention any brands but maybe I can visit him again, for the street I'm sticking to middle of the road. I assume with after market breaks and high end fluid you would maximize the upper limits of the system in harmony.
| trhoppe | 04-05-2006 01:16 PM |
mad breaks yo
| 8Complex | 04-05-2006 02:40 PM |
[QUOTE=rupertberr]What's the shelf life for unopened brake fluid?
I am finally running down to the last couple of bottles of Wilwood 570 that have been sitting on my shelf for at least five years now. It should still be good right? I only change my fluid once a year and bought way too much in one shot.[/QUOTE]
Unopened, it should be for quite a long time. If you haven't introduced any contaminates into the fluid, there should be nothing to worry about.
I am finally running down to the last couple of bottles of Wilwood 570 that have been sitting on my shelf for at least five years now. It should still be good right? I only change my fluid once a year and bought way too much in one shot.[/QUOTE]
Unopened, it should be for quite a long time. If you haven't introduced any contaminates into the fluid, there should be nothing to worry about.
| 8Complex | 04-05-2006 02:42 PM |
[QUOTE=desert pirate]....also I heared from a trusted mechanic that wasn't trying to make a sale that high end break fluid can get thick and clog up....[/QUOTE]
There is nothing you can do to brake fluid to thicken it up. Usage just introduces things into the fluid and thins it out. Unless you boil & burn it very bad and repeatedly (like engine oil from an abused motor), there should be no way to thicken it up.
There is nothing you can do to brake fluid to thicken it up. Usage just introduces things into the fluid and thins it out. Unless you boil & burn it very bad and repeatedly (like engine oil from an abused motor), there should be no way to thicken it up.
| infantsam | 04-05-2006 02:57 PM |
[QUOTE=8Complex]Unopened, it [b]should be[/b] for quite a long time. If you haven't introduced any contaminates into the fluid, there [b]should be[/b] nothing to worry about.[/QUOTE]
Not to single you out but that is exactly what I was referring to in my previous post.
I watched the video of the guy in the STi hit the tire wall at Shenandoah and was there when Dave went farming. It's 'funny' now that everything is ok.....
I'm guilty of it myself btw...but now I think I'll try to be more careful.
If the manufacturer says it's ok then I believe it. If they say it SHOULD BE ok I'd dispose of it. I think in terms of FMEA or Failure Mode Effects and Analysis. What is the effect or potential effect of a failure - well in this case bodily and property damage or death. That then indicates that extra measures be taken to avoid that risk. Posed another way - do you think Nick wants to stand up in court and defend the brake fluid recommendations written here. I apologize for beating this subject to death and that was a terrible pun.
carry on
Not to single you out but that is exactly what I was referring to in my previous post.
I watched the video of the guy in the STi hit the tire wall at Shenandoah and was there when Dave went farming. It's 'funny' now that everything is ok.....
I'm guilty of it myself btw...but now I think I'll try to be more careful.
If the manufacturer says it's ok then I believe it. If they say it SHOULD BE ok I'd dispose of it. I think in terms of FMEA or Failure Mode Effects and Analysis. What is the effect or potential effect of a failure - well in this case bodily and property damage or death. That then indicates that extra measures be taken to avoid that risk. Posed another way - do you think Nick wants to stand up in court and defend the brake fluid recommendations written here. I apologize for beating this subject to death and that was a terrible pun.
carry on
| rupertberr | 04-05-2006 03:21 PM |
I sent an e-mail to Wilwood. I'll let you know from the horses mouth. ;)
| TubeDriver | 04-05-2006 03:43 PM |
If you talk with people who regularly track their cars or race you will find a significant number use Valvoline Synpower.
Go to Honda/Mazda/SVT/BMW/Porsche etc websites and do a search. People have been tracking with this stuff for years. Gary Shehan has used it and I bet he is WAY faster than you or me. I have had no problems (using XP10/XP8 pads with R-compounds).
I guess my point is that Valvoline is a known commodity, it works well on the track and it costs very little. You will not boil it using your street car with track pads and r-compounds.
[QUOTE=infantsam]well
$275 for admission for the weekend
$250 and up for hotel/food
$100 for gas
and the list goes on....
Is saving a few bucks on less expensive fluid really helping? If you boil it you potentially:
-go off and crash your car/get injured/killed/kill someone else
-miss out on a session which are about 50-60/per
and a number of other much more costly and dangerous things
It gets tiring to hear...."You don't need that - that's too much etc."
While often that is true - the point is I don't want to 'creep up' on what is enough for me/my car/my driving. I want to 'creep down' and find the floor without any of those potentially really bad things happening. I experienced pretty severe brake fade at Shenadoah last weekend coming into the loop. It is simply something I won't tolerate as I learn to drive better. I'm a nOOb darnit - I'm not good at picking braking points precisely, hitting them and managing the resources of my car. That's why I go to these events - to learn that. And while I learn that I'm going to want more brakes than I need. Whern I get better and know how to decide I may try to economize - but not yet.
I'd feel pretty darn stupid if I spent 6-700 getting there and a $20 bottle of decent brake fluid or a $150 set of decent pads kept me from driving.
So I'll stick with the ATE till I can be sure that something a little cheaper will do the job - or find I need something better. It's also easier for me to get - it gets delivered so I don't have to spend $0.50/mile driving to the Ford dealer (my second worst nightmare anyway) and waste time to 'save' $8
What I really wish was that someone would make a container that was easy to pour in the MC without needing a funnel. The ATE can is awful. I dunno if the Motul plastic bottle w/ neck is easier but I'd likely buy it instead of ATE if I knew that to be the case. I think the slightly necked cans that the Ford stuff comes in are pretty clean.
I suppose thats OT a bit - but I think it would be irresponsible to tell a beginner that his 300HP STi will do just fine at a track day with street fluid/pads. There is no 'should be ok' in brakes or other safety items. Other people read these posts and take it as gospel because they don't trust the vendors selling those products.
carry on - I'll be interested to see the FAQ.[/QUOTE]
Go to Honda/Mazda/SVT/BMW/Porsche etc websites and do a search. People have been tracking with this stuff for years. Gary Shehan has used it and I bet he is WAY faster than you or me. I have had no problems (using XP10/XP8 pads with R-compounds).
I guess my point is that Valvoline is a known commodity, it works well on the track and it costs very little. You will not boil it using your street car with track pads and r-compounds.
[QUOTE=infantsam]well
$275 for admission for the weekend
$250 and up for hotel/food
$100 for gas
and the list goes on....
Is saving a few bucks on less expensive fluid really helping? If you boil it you potentially:
-go off and crash your car/get injured/killed/kill someone else
-miss out on a session which are about 50-60/per
and a number of other much more costly and dangerous things
It gets tiring to hear...."You don't need that - that's too much etc."
While often that is true - the point is I don't want to 'creep up' on what is enough for me/my car/my driving. I want to 'creep down' and find the floor without any of those potentially really bad things happening. I experienced pretty severe brake fade at Shenadoah last weekend coming into the loop. It is simply something I won't tolerate as I learn to drive better. I'm a nOOb darnit - I'm not good at picking braking points precisely, hitting them and managing the resources of my car. That's why I go to these events - to learn that. And while I learn that I'm going to want more brakes than I need. Whern I get better and know how to decide I may try to economize - but not yet.
I'd feel pretty darn stupid if I spent 6-700 getting there and a $20 bottle of decent brake fluid or a $150 set of decent pads kept me from driving.
So I'll stick with the ATE till I can be sure that something a little cheaper will do the job - or find I need something better. It's also easier for me to get - it gets delivered so I don't have to spend $0.50/mile driving to the Ford dealer (my second worst nightmare anyway) and waste time to 'save' $8
What I really wish was that someone would make a container that was easy to pour in the MC without needing a funnel. The ATE can is awful. I dunno if the Motul plastic bottle w/ neck is easier but I'd likely buy it instead of ATE if I knew that to be the case. I think the slightly necked cans that the Ford stuff comes in are pretty clean.
I suppose thats OT a bit - but I think it would be irresponsible to tell a beginner that his 300HP STi will do just fine at a track day with street fluid/pads. There is no 'should be ok' in brakes or other safety items. Other people read these posts and take it as gospel because they don't trust the vendors selling those products.
carry on - I'll be interested to see the FAQ.[/QUOTE]
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 04-05-2006 03:44 PM |
Hello,
[QUOTE=infantsam]If the manufacturer says it's ok then I believe it. If they say it SHOULD BE ok I'd dispose of it. I think in terms of FMEA or Failure Mode Effects and Analysis. What is the effect or potential effect of a failure - well in this case bodily and property damage or death. That then indicates that extra measures be taken to avoid that risk.[/QUOTE]
If the question is "would I stand behind my internet advice in case of a lawsuit," then the answer is "no" even if the question you ask me is "is the car in the picture blue?"
This is not a professional business for most of the posters in most of the threads and no one here is being paid to give advice (well, aside from some of the vendors - probably have employees or lackeys that post to steer you in the direction of their products).
Everything you read here is an opinion. If I say that something works in a particular way and you know that I've given good advice in the past and you know that I have 5 years of factory-level professional racing experience, you can give my opinions whatever weight you think is appropriate. If you think I'm just a hack who has never seen a track, not to mention drive on one, then you can (and certainly should) give my opinions whatever (minimal) weight you think is appropriate. If you don't know me or anything about me, perhaps you shouldn't entrust your life to my answers.
That all said, if there's ever a doubt about anything, toss it and get new. If you are asking "should I change my oil after 'X' happened," it doesn't matter what people post - if you think you should, then do. If you really don't know, go with whatever advice sounds best and blame no one but yourself for not changing the oil.
In this thread, the answer is simple. If you don't know whom to trust, go spend $100 on brake fluid and pay someone $100 to flush it thoroughly so that you know you have the best fluid and someone to blame when things go wrong.
Meanwhile, if you want to know what professionals, top level national road racers, autocrossers, everyday ordinary track guys, bench racers, and plain ordinary people do, then post up here and follow what advice you want.
8Complex said the brake fluid should be okay. What he meant by that (if I may guess) is that barring anything unusual happening, the brake fluid should be ok. He has no idea whether the seal on the package went bad at the factory, or if the bottle was exposed to many heat cycles in the Arizona sun that caused the plastic of the bottle to leach into the fluid, or if a strange brake-fluid-eating bacteria infected the bottle. Under "normal" circumstances, the fluid should be okay. *shrug*
I'd add to his comment that I would look to see if there is an expiration date on the fluid - some manufacturers include an "install by" date on fluids that tend to sit around for a long time. Why? I don't know... either the fluid eventually goes bad or they just want you to spend more money.
As 8' said, the difference between the cheap stuff and the expensive stuff is practically nothing if you flush your system often enough. The dry boiling points of most of the fluids are similar... and certainly above what you should be getting in your non-fully-built race cars.
As a professional, it is my opinion that you should use whichever fluid makes you happy. I personally use SynPower. I have absolutely faded the pads in both the STi and the OXT, but I have never boiled the fluid.
Joel
[QUOTE=infantsam]If the manufacturer says it's ok then I believe it. If they say it SHOULD BE ok I'd dispose of it. I think in terms of FMEA or Failure Mode Effects and Analysis. What is the effect or potential effect of a failure - well in this case bodily and property damage or death. That then indicates that extra measures be taken to avoid that risk.[/QUOTE]
If the question is "would I stand behind my internet advice in case of a lawsuit," then the answer is "no" even if the question you ask me is "is the car in the picture blue?"
This is not a professional business for most of the posters in most of the threads and no one here is being paid to give advice (well, aside from some of the vendors - probably have employees or lackeys that post to steer you in the direction of their products).
Everything you read here is an opinion. If I say that something works in a particular way and you know that I've given good advice in the past and you know that I have 5 years of factory-level professional racing experience, you can give my opinions whatever weight you think is appropriate. If you think I'm just a hack who has never seen a track, not to mention drive on one, then you can (and certainly should) give my opinions whatever (minimal) weight you think is appropriate. If you don't know me or anything about me, perhaps you shouldn't entrust your life to my answers.
That all said, if there's ever a doubt about anything, toss it and get new. If you are asking "should I change my oil after 'X' happened," it doesn't matter what people post - if you think you should, then do. If you really don't know, go with whatever advice sounds best and blame no one but yourself for not changing the oil.
In this thread, the answer is simple. If you don't know whom to trust, go spend $100 on brake fluid and pay someone $100 to flush it thoroughly so that you know you have the best fluid and someone to blame when things go wrong.
Meanwhile, if you want to know what professionals, top level national road racers, autocrossers, everyday ordinary track guys, bench racers, and plain ordinary people do, then post up here and follow what advice you want.
8Complex said the brake fluid should be okay. What he meant by that (if I may guess) is that barring anything unusual happening, the brake fluid should be ok. He has no idea whether the seal on the package went bad at the factory, or if the bottle was exposed to many heat cycles in the Arizona sun that caused the plastic of the bottle to leach into the fluid, or if a strange brake-fluid-eating bacteria infected the bottle. Under "normal" circumstances, the fluid should be okay. *shrug*
I'd add to his comment that I would look to see if there is an expiration date on the fluid - some manufacturers include an "install by" date on fluids that tend to sit around for a long time. Why? I don't know... either the fluid eventually goes bad or they just want you to spend more money.
As 8' said, the difference between the cheap stuff and the expensive stuff is practically nothing if you flush your system often enough. The dry boiling points of most of the fluids are similar... and certainly above what you should be getting in your non-fully-built race cars.
As a professional, it is my opinion that you should use whichever fluid makes you happy. I personally use SynPower. I have absolutely faded the pads in both the STi and the OXT, but I have never boiled the fluid.
Joel
| 8Complex | 04-05-2006 04:02 PM |
[QUOTE=infantsam]Not to single you out but that is exactly what I was referring to in my previous post.
I watched the video of the guy in the STi hit the tire wall at Shenandoah and was there when Dave went farming. It's 'funny' now that everything is ok.....
I'm guilty of it myself btw...but now I think I'll try to be more careful.
If the manufacturer says it's ok then I believe it. If they say it SHOULD BE ok I'd dispose of it. I think in terms of FMEA or Failure Mode Effects and Analysis. What is the effect or potential effect of a failure - well in this case bodily and property damage or death. That then indicates that extra measures be taken to avoid that risk. Posed another way - do you think Nick wants to stand up in court and defend the brake fluid recommendations written here. I apologize for beating this subject to death and that was a terrible pun.
carry on[/QUOTE]
With that attitude, throw it out and get new fluid. If you haven't used it in 5 years, you're obviously not in a hurt for the money you put into it, and shouldn't be in a hurt to buy new stuff, just to be sure. Not being an ass, just stating the plain truth. :)
I watched the video of the guy in the STi hit the tire wall at Shenandoah and was there when Dave went farming. It's 'funny' now that everything is ok.....
I'm guilty of it myself btw...but now I think I'll try to be more careful.
If the manufacturer says it's ok then I believe it. If they say it SHOULD BE ok I'd dispose of it. I think in terms of FMEA or Failure Mode Effects and Analysis. What is the effect or potential effect of a failure - well in this case bodily and property damage or death. That then indicates that extra measures be taken to avoid that risk. Posed another way - do you think Nick wants to stand up in court and defend the brake fluid recommendations written here. I apologize for beating this subject to death and that was a terrible pun.
carry on[/QUOTE]
With that attitude, throw it out and get new fluid. If you haven't used it in 5 years, you're obviously not in a hurt for the money you put into it, and shouldn't be in a hurt to buy new stuff, just to be sure. Not being an ass, just stating the plain truth. :)
| Turn in Concepts | 04-05-2006 04:10 PM |
In regards to shelf life - I do know for a fact that the "air" in motul bottles is actually nitrogen to help cut down on contamination. I cannot speak for other products.
| Chin | 04-05-2006 04:13 PM |
[QUOTE=TubeDriver]People might also want to consider Valvoline Synpower Dot3/4 brake fluid. Cost is about $3. Available everywhere (Pepboys, Autozone etc). It has wet and dry boiling points almost as high as ATE.
I just did two days at Shenandoah (Summit Point) in an STI with Carbotech XP8s. No problems at the track. Bled my brakes after the event and the fluid looked perfectly clear.
[/QUOTE]
I have been using the Valvoline for 5 years running track days and AutoX. I have been very happy. I usually bleed ~3x a summer since it is soooo cheap ($2.89 for the last bottle!).
My $0.02 anyway...
I just did two days at Shenandoah (Summit Point) in an STI with Carbotech XP8s. No problems at the track. Bled my brakes after the event and the fluid looked perfectly clear.
[/QUOTE]
I have been using the Valvoline for 5 years running track days and AutoX. I have been very happy. I usually bleed ~3x a summer since it is soooo cheap ($2.89 for the last bottle!).
My $0.02 anyway...
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 04-05-2006 04:22 PM |
Hello,
[QUOTE=Turn in Concepts]In regards to shelf life - I do know for a fact that the "air" in motul bottles is actually nitrogen to help cut down on contamination. I cannot speak for other products.[/QUOTE]
TiC, even that "fact" is only your opinion, if we want to get technical about it... :alien: Even if you tested a random sampling of motul bottles and had seen the assembly line at the factory, you really could only state as fact that the bottles you tested were full of nitrogen.
The "fact" is that we lend some credence to the people we trust, and if we trust Motul as a company, then we trust their assertion that they fill their bottles with nitrogen to displace any moist air and help keep the fluid fresh.
I would trust Motul more than a small fly-by-night operation and I would trust some posters on this forum more than others.
But if you're only interested in "facts" and not "opinions" then you probably shouldn't be surfing the forums. I don't think infantsam meant to go so far, but that's what his post implied...
:D
Joel
[QUOTE=Turn in Concepts]In regards to shelf life - I do know for a fact that the "air" in motul bottles is actually nitrogen to help cut down on contamination. I cannot speak for other products.[/QUOTE]
TiC, even that "fact" is only your opinion, if we want to get technical about it... :alien: Even if you tested a random sampling of motul bottles and had seen the assembly line at the factory, you really could only state as fact that the bottles you tested were full of nitrogen.
The "fact" is that we lend some credence to the people we trust, and if we trust Motul as a company, then we trust their assertion that they fill their bottles with nitrogen to displace any moist air and help keep the fluid fresh.
I would trust Motul more than a small fly-by-night operation and I would trust some posters on this forum more than others.
But if you're only interested in "facts" and not "opinions" then you probably shouldn't be surfing the forums. I don't think infantsam meant to go so far, but that's what his post implied...
:D
Joel
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