| Ferg | 10-24-2005 08:43 AM |
F1 has finally lost it's mind! (new wing proposal)
�
�
Um....
[QUOTE]FIA unveils radical rear wing concept
By Jonathan Noble Monday, 24 October 2005 08:05
Motor racing's governing body has unveiled a radical double rear-wing concept that they want Formula One cars to run with in 2007 in a bid to improve overtaking.
After months of research and development work with technology partner AMD to look at ways of overcoming the difficulties current F1 cars have in overtaking, the FIA have come up with what they have termed the Centreline Downwash Generating (CDG) wing.
It is hoped that this CDG wing will help F1 cars follow each other much more closely than they currently can. The extreme-looking rear wing is designed to create a wake that gives the car behind it more downforce and reduced drag when running close to a car in front.
The FIA want the CDG concept to form part of the 2008 Formula One technical regulations � along with wider track cars and slick tyres.
However, they are also hoping that the CDG idea will win the support of teams so that the plans can be introduced as early as the start of the 2007 season.
FIA president Max Mosley said: "This new research is important for the future of Formula One. By introducing the CDG wing we can give motor sport fans exactly what they have asked for, wheel-to-wheel racing with much more overtaking.
"It is our hope that the teams will collaborate with us in the optimisation of this radical new idea so that the aerodynamic benefits can be introduced into Formula One in 2007 rather than having to wait until 2008."
The CDG idea will be presented to the teams at this afternoon's meeting of the Formula One Commission in London, where discussions are taking place regarding changes to next year's sporting regulations as well as future technical regulations.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/image/51210832/original.jpg[/IMG]
:huh:
[QUOTE]FIA unveils radical rear wing concept
By Jonathan Noble Monday, 24 October 2005 08:05
Motor racing's governing body has unveiled a radical double rear-wing concept that they want Formula One cars to run with in 2007 in a bid to improve overtaking.
After months of research and development work with technology partner AMD to look at ways of overcoming the difficulties current F1 cars have in overtaking, the FIA have come up with what they have termed the Centreline Downwash Generating (CDG) wing.
It is hoped that this CDG wing will help F1 cars follow each other much more closely than they currently can. The extreme-looking rear wing is designed to create a wake that gives the car behind it more downforce and reduced drag when running close to a car in front.
The FIA want the CDG concept to form part of the 2008 Formula One technical regulations � along with wider track cars and slick tyres.
However, they are also hoping that the CDG idea will win the support of teams so that the plans can be introduced as early as the start of the 2007 season.
FIA president Max Mosley said: "This new research is important for the future of Formula One. By introducing the CDG wing we can give motor sport fans exactly what they have asked for, wheel-to-wheel racing with much more overtaking.
"It is our hope that the teams will collaborate with us in the optimisation of this radical new idea so that the aerodynamic benefits can be introduced into Formula One in 2007 rather than having to wait until 2008."
The CDG idea will be presented to the teams at this afternoon's meeting of the Formula One Commission in London, where discussions are taking place regarding changes to next year's sporting regulations as well as future technical regulations.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/image/51210832/original.jpg[/IMG]
:huh:
| TimStevens | 10-24-2005 09:01 AM |
Good idea in principle... looks stupid though.
Oh, anyone else notice the lack of grooves on the tires?
Oh, anyone else notice the lack of grooves on the tires?
| artkevin | 10-24-2005 09:19 AM |
Bigger wider groove-less tires! I'm all for it. As Tim said, looks good in principle but lets put in some wind tunnels and see for sure. Not as radical as I would have thought. Looks like big tires and a cut out wing to me.
| Bonzo | 10-24-2005 09:20 AM |
I'm no aerodynamasist but would'nt the dirty air over the tires pretty much make the rear wing useless?
Is this a way to have a rear wing, but render it useless but still look the part?
The only area of that wing that may have some effect is the "U" shaped sealing plate around the inside.
Again, I'm just an average Joe sittin here in cold WI typing on my comp spewing ignorant thoughts. An expert, I'm not. :p
Is this a way to have a rear wing, but render it useless but still look the part?
The only area of that wing that may have some effect is the "U" shaped sealing plate around the inside.
Again, I'm just an average Joe sittin here in cold WI typing on my comp spewing ignorant thoughts. An expert, I'm not. :p
| TimStevens | 10-24-2005 09:28 AM |
Yeah, I think yer cheese-head theories might just be right, especially the way the wing is tucked right behind the wheels. Raise it up about 6-8'' and then maybe it'd do something... and look even more retarded :)
| elhalisf | 10-24-2005 09:44 AM |
an editor from car and driver wrote about this a while ago. he proposed this exact concept. i think its a good idea that will allow other drivers than micheal to win.
| TimStevens | 10-24-2005 09:46 AM |
[QUOTE=elhalisf]an editor from car and driver wrote about this a while ago. he proposed this exact concept. i think its a good idea that will allow other drivers than micheal to win.[/QUOTE]
Umm... have you watched F1 lately? Do you know the last time Michael won a race?
Umm... have you watched F1 lately? Do you know the last time Michael won a race?
| Harvey_Mushman | 10-24-2005 09:51 AM |
[QUOTE=elhalisf] i think its a good idea that will allow other drivers than micheal to win.[/QUOTE]
...like, say, Fernando ;)
...like, say, Fernando ;)
| Chromer | 10-24-2005 09:54 AM |
Less aero grip = mo bettah racing.
IMO, good move. Even if the largest sponsor logo surface disappears because of it.
IMO, good move. Even if the largest sponsor logo surface disappears because of it.
| artkevin | 10-24-2005 10:06 AM |
Just in case you need proof that it will work. :)
[IMG]http://images.f1racing.net/large/53364.jpg[/IMG]
Seriously...What else do you need?
[IMG]http://images.f1racing.net/large/53364.jpg[/IMG]
Seriously...What else do you need?
| TimStevens | 10-24-2005 10:10 AM |
Oh I'm sure it'll work to provide more downforce for the cars behind the leader... but will the rear wing itself do anything? If the rear wings have their efficiency dropped by about 1/2, oversteer would be an obvious prob.
And this would also get rid of drafting down the straights, which IMHO is an exciting way to pass.
And this would also get rid of drafting down the straights, which IMHO is an exciting way to pass.
| HomerJay | 10-24-2005 10:13 AM |
That looks [i]so[/i] ghey! Hey when do the teams pull out of F1?
| Ferg | 10-24-2005 10:25 AM |
And the goofy rear wing is GO!
As well as a return to SLICK F****** TYRES!!!
:banana:
[QUOTE]F1 commission approves rule changes
By Jonathan Noble, from London Monday, 24 October 2005 14:14
FIA president Max Mosley has managed to get all his regulation proposals for 2006 and 2007 approved.
In a meeting of the Formula One commission today, the proposed new qualifying format for 2006 was approved unanimously.
Furthermore, tyre changes during races will also make a return - although this proposal was met with objection from some teams, there was sufficient votes in favour of it to approve the change.
Perhaps Mosley's biggest success of the day, though, was getting the FIA's radical double rear-wing concept, along with a return to slick tyres, approved for 2007, although subject to input from the technical directors.
The FIA said it would implement the changes as of 2008, when the existing Concorde Agreement expires. However, the F1 commission voted in favour of introducing these regulations as of 2007.[/QUOTE]
More on this as it comes out.
:D
As well as a return to SLICK F****** TYRES!!!
:banana:
[QUOTE]F1 commission approves rule changes
By Jonathan Noble, from London Monday, 24 October 2005 14:14
FIA president Max Mosley has managed to get all his regulation proposals for 2006 and 2007 approved.
In a meeting of the Formula One commission today, the proposed new qualifying format for 2006 was approved unanimously.
Furthermore, tyre changes during races will also make a return - although this proposal was met with objection from some teams, there was sufficient votes in favour of it to approve the change.
Perhaps Mosley's biggest success of the day, though, was getting the FIA's radical double rear-wing concept, along with a return to slick tyres, approved for 2007, although subject to input from the technical directors.
The FIA said it would implement the changes as of 2008, when the existing Concorde Agreement expires. However, the F1 commission voted in favour of introducing these regulations as of 2007.[/QUOTE]
More on this as it comes out.
:D
| Bonzo | 10-24-2005 10:42 AM |
Reduce rear downforce and then you have a major aero imbalance, as was said. So now the big dollar teams go to the windtunnel and spend another million to get some balance back whilst the smaller teams do donuts. Terminal speeds go up and corner speeds drop. Could be good or bad.
The more things change, the more they...
Real race cars run slicks. One good change.
The more things change, the more they...
Real race cars run slicks. One good change.
| TimStevens | 10-24-2005 10:52 AM |
What's the "new" qualifying format this time around?
| flyboymike | 10-24-2005 10:52 AM |
This is a brilliant move in terms of aero. Now, instead of a wake zone directly behind the car you're trying to pass, you'll be getting some downwash. This will increase the effective angle of attack of the passing car's wings, increasing its grip. There's still going to be some kind of low pressure zone or wake, probably. If anything, I bet it makes the draft-pass even more exciting, because you get some pressure drop for lower drag while still keeping some flow for lift.
| Ferg | 10-24-2005 10:56 AM |
[QUOTE=TimStevens]What's the "new" qualifying format this time around?[/QUOTE]
It's a "knockout" formula.
One 15 minute sesssion after which the slowest five cars are parked and take up slots 15-20
Second 15 minute session after which next five slowest cars are parked and take up slots 10-15
Final twenty minute session the last ten cars duke it out for the top ten grid slots.
From what I understand the cars knocked out will have a chance to refuel while the fastest ten have to start with whatever they have left after quali.
It's an interesting idea.
It's a "knockout" formula.
One 15 minute sesssion after which the slowest five cars are parked and take up slots 15-20
Second 15 minute session after which next five slowest cars are parked and take up slots 10-15
Final twenty minute session the last ten cars duke it out for the top ten grid slots.
From what I understand the cars knocked out will have a chance to refuel while the fastest ten have to start with whatever they have left after quali.
It's an interesting idea.
| iamrazor | 10-24-2005 10:58 AM |
The wing looks funny to me, but if it improves passing, then its a good thing. IMHO, slicks in F1 are a must. how can they want to have passing, but not give them enough grip (slicks) to do so?
I'd laos like to see what this new configuration would do to a car behind trying to over take. How bad does it upset the overtaking car's aero. Does it make it undriveable?
theory != practice
changes to pit stops:
tires: sure, let them change 'em. just limit the number of sets for race day. tires are probably the cheapest budget item for most teams. there's really no cost savings by only having one set for the race.
fuel: no fueling during the race. what you start with is it. certainly makes pitting safer. no more fuel rig mishaps or the risk of fire.
oh, and go back to the old qualifying setup. this new one blows.
I'd laos like to see what this new configuration would do to a car behind trying to over take. How bad does it upset the overtaking car's aero. Does it make it undriveable?
theory != practice
changes to pit stops:
tires: sure, let them change 'em. just limit the number of sets for race day. tires are probably the cheapest budget item for most teams. there's really no cost savings by only having one set for the race.
fuel: no fueling during the race. what you start with is it. certainly makes pitting safer. no more fuel rig mishaps or the risk of fire.
oh, and go back to the old qualifying setup. this new one blows.
| TimStevens | 10-24-2005 11:14 AM |
[QUOTE=Ferg]It's a "knockout" formula.
One 15 minute sesssion after which the slowest five cars are parked and take up slots 15-20
Second 15 minute session after which next five slowest cars are parked and take up slots 10-15
Final twenty minute session the last ten cars duke it out for the top ten grid slots.
From what I understand the cars knocked out will have a chance to refuel while the fastest ten have to start with whatever they have left after quali.
It's an interesting idea.[/QUOTE]
Interesting... but complicated and it seems awfully gimmicky. Just gimme the old one, please. I was fine with fast-forwarding through the first half-hour.
One 15 minute sesssion after which the slowest five cars are parked and take up slots 15-20
Second 15 minute session after which next five slowest cars are parked and take up slots 10-15
Final twenty minute session the last ten cars duke it out for the top ten grid slots.
From what I understand the cars knocked out will have a chance to refuel while the fastest ten have to start with whatever they have left after quali.
It's an interesting idea.[/QUOTE]
Interesting... but complicated and it seems awfully gimmicky. Just gimme the old one, please. I was fine with fast-forwarding through the first half-hour.
| Ferg | 10-24-2005 11:22 AM |
At least with this new format you won't have a slower car getting in the way and driver's really can't complain about being blocked with only ten cars on track...well except at Monaco of course. The two things I hated about the old format was the complete lack of action for the first half hour and then a super crowded track at the end... Having all the cars out on track at the start and cutting the slow guys as the session builds in intensity, I like it.
It'll be dramatic when one of the heavies doesn't make the cut..or when one of the minnows does.
There seems to be a lot of different ways to approach the fuel strategy too. Do you run heavy for the race and hope you squeak into the top ten (assuming there's a few cars out there running light) or do you go for a fast time right out of the box and try to save fuel...
I'm guessing for each session the times will be reset to zero so the drivers are going to have to be on it...lots of potential for mistakes.
I'm going to hold my judgement until I see it in action next year, but I think it's very promising.
It'll be dramatic when one of the heavies doesn't make the cut..or when one of the minnows does.
There seems to be a lot of different ways to approach the fuel strategy too. Do you run heavy for the race and hope you squeak into the top ten (assuming there's a few cars out there running light) or do you go for a fast time right out of the box and try to save fuel...
I'm guessing for each session the times will be reset to zero so the drivers are going to have to be on it...lots of potential for mistakes.
I'm going to hold my judgement until I see it in action next year, but I think it's very promising.
| BryanH | 10-24-2005 11:29 AM |
[QUOTE=iamrazor]
changes to pit stops:
tires: sure, let them change 'em. just limit the number of sets for race day. tires are probably the cheapest budget item for most teams. there's really no cost savings by only having one set for the race.
fuel: no fueling during the race. what you start with is it. certainly makes pitting safer. no more fuel rig mishaps or the risk of fire.
oh, and go back to the old qualifying setup. this new one blows.[/QUOTE]
Seriously,
Changing tires is a safety issue if nothing else.
But I would think fueling during the race is necesarry as well. Carrying enough fuel to actually finish a race would make the car SO heavy at the beginning of the race that by the end of the race it would so dramatically change the handling of the car I don't see how that would be safe. Or am I way off base about how much fuel they would have to carry?
changes to pit stops:
tires: sure, let them change 'em. just limit the number of sets for race day. tires are probably the cheapest budget item for most teams. there's really no cost savings by only having one set for the race.
fuel: no fueling during the race. what you start with is it. certainly makes pitting safer. no more fuel rig mishaps or the risk of fire.
oh, and go back to the old qualifying setup. this new one blows.[/QUOTE]
Seriously,
Changing tires is a safety issue if nothing else.
But I would think fueling during the race is necesarry as well. Carrying enough fuel to actually finish a race would make the car SO heavy at the beginning of the race that by the end of the race it would so dramatically change the handling of the car I don't see how that would be safe. Or am I way off base about how much fuel they would have to carry?
| Ferg | 10-24-2005 11:33 AM |
[QUOTE=BryanH]But I would think fueling during the race is necesarry as well. Carrying enough fuel to actually finish a race would make the car SO heavy at the beginning of the race that by the end of the race it would so dramatically change the handling of the car I don't see how that would be safe. Or am I way off base about how much fuel they would have to carry?[/QUOTE]
One of the things that made Prost such a great driver was his ability to set a car up so it was fast when it was full of fuel at the start of the race and when it was on fumes at the end. Finding that compromise was one of his specialities.
Refuelling turns a race into a sprint-stop-sprint-stop-sprint procession... :o
I'd love to see them ditch refuelling...then we'd see who was really a complete driver.
One of the things that made Prost such a great driver was his ability to set a car up so it was fast when it was full of fuel at the start of the race and when it was on fumes at the end. Finding that compromise was one of his specialities.
Refuelling turns a race into a sprint-stop-sprint-stop-sprint procession... :o
I'd love to see them ditch refuelling...then we'd see who was really a complete driver.
| iamrazor | 10-24-2005 11:47 AM |
Sure it would make the car heavier, but no more pitlane fires. Or no more races lost due to fueling issues. Obviously you can't change one item in a F1 car w/o changing something else. they would need to change some things in the car to adapt a "full load" or fuel. that would change handling characteristics for sure.
| mr2guru | 10-24-2005 12:06 PM |
All these changes bode well for F1. With as much technology gained, in both aero and tire tech, by having to "cope" with non-slick tires. Going back to slicks will be insane.
I can't wait for the sweet sound of 20k+ rpm V8s!
I can't wait for the sweet sound of 20k+ rpm V8s!
| Ferg | 10-24-2005 12:08 PM |
Some more information.
[QUOTE]F1 set for radical new look
By Jonathan Noble, from London Monday, 24 October 2005 15:46
Formula One's leading figures have rubber stamped major changes to the sport at a meeting in London today, in a move that will change the face of Grand Prix racing over the next two years.
In a three-hour meeting at a Knightsbridge hotel, the Formula One Commission has given approval to a new knock-out qualifying format and the return of tyre changes for next season - as well as given preliminary approval to a radical overhaul of F1 car design for 2007.
The qualifying format will be exactly as was proposed by the FIA earlier this month, with the one-hour session broken up into three separate sessions.
There will be two 15-minute session at the start, where the slowest five cars in each will be eliminated from qualifying to take the rear most positions on the grid, before a final 20 minute shoot-out session to decide the first 10 places on the grid.
Tyre changes will also return to F1 after a single season where cars had to run with the same set of tyres for both qualifying and the entire race distance.
Beyond next season, the Commission also approved the concept of the radical Centreline Downwash Generating Wing car to be introduced in 2007 - which will run with slick tyres.
Grooved tyres are able to be outlawed because there will only be a single tyre manufacturer allowed in F1 after the end of next year.
The idea of the CDG car will now be worked on by F1 think tank, the Technical Working Group, where eight teams will need to approve the regulations before the end of this year for it to be introduced by the start of 2007.
FIA president Max Mosley said: "It has to get the agreement of the TWG, but everyone who has seen the car is very enthusiastic about it. So unless there is an unforeseen difficulty it will all be okay.
"This is the most radical change in F1 since the introduction of wings. It is a massive change and it will be interesting."
Not everything proposed by the FIA was voted through in the meeting, however. Plans to scrap third cars on Fridays for the bottom six teams and ban spare cars were rejected - as was the idea of outlawing tyre warming blankets. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]F1 set for radical new look
By Jonathan Noble, from London Monday, 24 October 2005 15:46
Formula One's leading figures have rubber stamped major changes to the sport at a meeting in London today, in a move that will change the face of Grand Prix racing over the next two years.
In a three-hour meeting at a Knightsbridge hotel, the Formula One Commission has given approval to a new knock-out qualifying format and the return of tyre changes for next season - as well as given preliminary approval to a radical overhaul of F1 car design for 2007.
The qualifying format will be exactly as was proposed by the FIA earlier this month, with the one-hour session broken up into three separate sessions.
There will be two 15-minute session at the start, where the slowest five cars in each will be eliminated from qualifying to take the rear most positions on the grid, before a final 20 minute shoot-out session to decide the first 10 places on the grid.
Tyre changes will also return to F1 after a single season where cars had to run with the same set of tyres for both qualifying and the entire race distance.
Beyond next season, the Commission also approved the concept of the radical Centreline Downwash Generating Wing car to be introduced in 2007 - which will run with slick tyres.
Grooved tyres are able to be outlawed because there will only be a single tyre manufacturer allowed in F1 after the end of next year.
The idea of the CDG car will now be worked on by F1 think tank, the Technical Working Group, where eight teams will need to approve the regulations before the end of this year for it to be introduced by the start of 2007.
FIA president Max Mosley said: "It has to get the agreement of the TWG, but everyone who has seen the car is very enthusiastic about it. So unless there is an unforeseen difficulty it will all be okay.
"This is the most radical change in F1 since the introduction of wings. It is a massive change and it will be interesting."
Not everything proposed by the FIA was voted through in the meeting, however. Plans to scrap third cars on Fridays for the bottom six teams and ban spare cars were rejected - as was the idea of outlawing tyre warming blankets. [/QUOTE]
| ChrisW | 10-24-2005 12:10 PM |
wow... that wing concept... I would rather see limited ground effects & unlimited traction control and no rear wing instead of what they have proposed.
| artkevin | 10-24-2005 12:27 PM |
How in the world did Max get all this to pass so quickly? I bet he has photos of Jean Todt kissing Ron Dennis.
| TimStevens | 10-24-2005 12:30 PM |
[QUOTE=Ferg]There seems to be a lot of different ways to approach the fuel strategy too. Do you run heavy for the race and hope you squeak into the top ten (assuming there's a few cars out there running light) or do you go for a fast time right out of the box and try to save fuel...[/QUOTE]
There are a lot of different ways to approach the current qual format too, and it's still dumb. At least now we'll have multiple cars on track, but we're also going to have cars limping along to conserve fuel while other cars are on flying laps, which will surely cause a few exciting moments.
There are a lot of different ways to approach the current qual format too, and it's still dumb. At least now we'll have multiple cars on track, but we're also going to have cars limping along to conserve fuel while other cars are on flying laps, which will surely cause a few exciting moments.
| Ferg | 10-24-2005 12:49 PM |
Max speaks out...no mention of illicit Ron/Jean photos. :(
[QUOTE]Mosley welcomes qualifying change
By Jonathan Noble, from London Monday, 24 October 2005 16:20
FIA president Max Mosley welcomed Formula One Commission's decision to approve a switch to a knockout qualifying system next season.
Qualifying will now take part in three phases, with five cars dropping out after a first 15-minute session and another five after a second stint. The remaining 10 will then fight for pole position in a 20-minute final session.
The current single-lap format had been heavily criticised.
"Everyone realised that television and live audience needed a better spectacle and they were not getting a better spectacle," said Mosley after the London meeting.
"There is a lot of different ways of doing it but this is the one that guaranteed the cars being out there.
"What they will probably do is run for the full 20 minutes, so they have the lightest possible fuel load, come in and put a set of tyres on right at the very end," Mosley added. "They start the last 20 minutes with whatever fuel they have chosen for the race.
"We will weigh the car before and then top up afterwards. The reason we are letting them top up is that it will encourage them to run, if we didn't let them run then they would just do one or two laps, this way they will do a lot of laps."
Mosley was not worried the new format could prove complicated for television viewers and claimed the new system will prove climatic.
"Not really, watching it on TV and they will see five slowest have gone and then the slowest five have gone and in the last 20 minutes the times will get quicker and quicker, and the fuel load will come down and then it will get really dramatic as the fuel load comes down and they put on new tyres and go for a time," he said.
"The only problem is that everyone will do their ultimate time in the last minute, they will aim to cross the line and start their lap just before the chequered flag goes. Instead of being anti-climatic it will be climatic and that will change the whole thing."[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Mosley excited about overtaking solution
By Jonathan Noble Monday, 24 October 2005 16:35
FIA president Max Mosley believes the radical new car design, which the governing body introduced to the Formula One Commission today, will vastly increase overtaking and will offer a better solution to the lack of close racing in the sport today.
The F1 Commission, which met today in London to ratify proposals for rule changes in 2006 and beyond, has given initial support to the FIA's idea, and the new design - along with a return to slick tyres - could be introduced in 2007, subject to further input from the technical directors.
"They all want to improve F1," Mosley said after the meeting, "and all the aerodynamicists can see that the idea of the radical car might well be the answer to all the overtaking issue.
"And so there was a lot of enthusiasm for it, as they can see there is a solution rather than 'oh, well, let's change the diffuser' or this or that. Nothing ever works, and now we have something that is full on."
Mosley revealed the primary concern sounded by the team was the fact that, with the new car, the machine in front would actually have a disadvantage compared to the car behind. But the FIA president said this in itself would not necessarily be a bad thing.
"At the moment, the technical people are saying: we have a problem that it will create such a boost to the car behind, that we will create car grouping like in the old slipstream days in the 1960s," Mosley said. "And I am saying: if that is the only problem, then I am not too worried.
"We are talking about more downforce for the car behind than the car in front , and a significant reduction in drag - which was unexpected - and it will therefore mean that in the extreme case, a slower car will be able to stay with a faster car, because it will have an advantage.
"There is no doubt that we go from what is a two-second advantage in order to overtake now, to half a second disadvantage and stay with him and overtake him.
"There will be a debate about whether we want it, but it is a solution to the problem."[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Carmakers close to agreement, says Mosley
By Jonathan Noble Monday, 24 October 2005 16:41
FIA president Max Mosley believes Formula One's carmakers are not far from reaching a deal before they ditch their plans to start a breakaway series.
The five manufacturers - BMW, DaimlerChrysler's Mercedes, Renault, Honda and Toyota - this month signed a binding agreement emphasising their determination to race in a championship that would satisfy their demands.
Talks are ongoing between the carmakers and Formula One's commercial right holders, with a meeting taking place last Sunday in Paris, where Mosley, teams representatives and members of the banks who own the commercial rights of the sport discussed the future.
Mosley believes talks of two different series is damaging for Formula One, but the FIA boss believes all parties are willing to reach an agreement.
"I think there have been a lot of positive meetings and a lot of positive feeling in China and that is why I stopped the press conference," said Mosley of the scheduled press conference that he cancelled at the Chinese Grand Prix weekend.
"Because someone would have said, what do you think about GPMA, and I would have said what I believe, and it is not conducive to friendly negotiations.
"But I had a meeting with the GPMA representatives before this meeting, we had not reached agreement but got a lot closer to see a way forwards so it looks like it will all come together in due course.
"I think there is a real willingness on everyone's part now to start agreeing what is happening and give certainty. It is very negative with sponsors and contracts to do with F1 and I think everyone is bored with it, including the teams.
"It is time to stop pissing about."[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Mosley welcomes qualifying change
By Jonathan Noble, from London Monday, 24 October 2005 16:20
FIA president Max Mosley welcomed Formula One Commission's decision to approve a switch to a knockout qualifying system next season.
Qualifying will now take part in three phases, with five cars dropping out after a first 15-minute session and another five after a second stint. The remaining 10 will then fight for pole position in a 20-minute final session.
The current single-lap format had been heavily criticised.
"Everyone realised that television and live audience needed a better spectacle and they were not getting a better spectacle," said Mosley after the London meeting.
"There is a lot of different ways of doing it but this is the one that guaranteed the cars being out there.
"What they will probably do is run for the full 20 minutes, so they have the lightest possible fuel load, come in and put a set of tyres on right at the very end," Mosley added. "They start the last 20 minutes with whatever fuel they have chosen for the race.
"We will weigh the car before and then top up afterwards. The reason we are letting them top up is that it will encourage them to run, if we didn't let them run then they would just do one or two laps, this way they will do a lot of laps."
Mosley was not worried the new format could prove complicated for television viewers and claimed the new system will prove climatic.
"Not really, watching it on TV and they will see five slowest have gone and then the slowest five have gone and in the last 20 minutes the times will get quicker and quicker, and the fuel load will come down and then it will get really dramatic as the fuel load comes down and they put on new tyres and go for a time," he said.
"The only problem is that everyone will do their ultimate time in the last minute, they will aim to cross the line and start their lap just before the chequered flag goes. Instead of being anti-climatic it will be climatic and that will change the whole thing."[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Mosley excited about overtaking solution
By Jonathan Noble Monday, 24 October 2005 16:35
FIA president Max Mosley believes the radical new car design, which the governing body introduced to the Formula One Commission today, will vastly increase overtaking and will offer a better solution to the lack of close racing in the sport today.
The F1 Commission, which met today in London to ratify proposals for rule changes in 2006 and beyond, has given initial support to the FIA's idea, and the new design - along with a return to slick tyres - could be introduced in 2007, subject to further input from the technical directors.
"They all want to improve F1," Mosley said after the meeting, "and all the aerodynamicists can see that the idea of the radical car might well be the answer to all the overtaking issue.
"And so there was a lot of enthusiasm for it, as they can see there is a solution rather than 'oh, well, let's change the diffuser' or this or that. Nothing ever works, and now we have something that is full on."
Mosley revealed the primary concern sounded by the team was the fact that, with the new car, the machine in front would actually have a disadvantage compared to the car behind. But the FIA president said this in itself would not necessarily be a bad thing.
"At the moment, the technical people are saying: we have a problem that it will create such a boost to the car behind, that we will create car grouping like in the old slipstream days in the 1960s," Mosley said. "And I am saying: if that is the only problem, then I am not too worried.
"We are talking about more downforce for the car behind than the car in front , and a significant reduction in drag - which was unexpected - and it will therefore mean that in the extreme case, a slower car will be able to stay with a faster car, because it will have an advantage.
"There is no doubt that we go from what is a two-second advantage in order to overtake now, to half a second disadvantage and stay with him and overtake him.
"There will be a debate about whether we want it, but it is a solution to the problem."[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Carmakers close to agreement, says Mosley
By Jonathan Noble Monday, 24 October 2005 16:41
FIA president Max Mosley believes Formula One's carmakers are not far from reaching a deal before they ditch their plans to start a breakaway series.
The five manufacturers - BMW, DaimlerChrysler's Mercedes, Renault, Honda and Toyota - this month signed a binding agreement emphasising their determination to race in a championship that would satisfy their demands.
Talks are ongoing between the carmakers and Formula One's commercial right holders, with a meeting taking place last Sunday in Paris, where Mosley, teams representatives and members of the banks who own the commercial rights of the sport discussed the future.
Mosley believes talks of two different series is damaging for Formula One, but the FIA boss believes all parties are willing to reach an agreement.
"I think there have been a lot of positive meetings and a lot of positive feeling in China and that is why I stopped the press conference," said Mosley of the scheduled press conference that he cancelled at the Chinese Grand Prix weekend.
"Because someone would have said, what do you think about GPMA, and I would have said what I believe, and it is not conducive to friendly negotiations.
"But I had a meeting with the GPMA representatives before this meeting, we had not reached agreement but got a lot closer to see a way forwards so it looks like it will all come together in due course.
"I think there is a real willingness on everyone's part now to start agreeing what is happening and give certainty. It is very negative with sponsors and contracts to do with F1 and I think everyone is bored with it, including the teams.
"It is time to stop pissing about."[/QUOTE]
| driggity | 10-24-2005 12:50 PM |
Anyone know how much wider of a track they're looking at going with for the new cars?
Also what are the aero regulations for 06 compared to the 05 rules? I like the idea of the new aero ideas for 07, but this constant changing has got to be brutal for the finances of the lower budget teams.
Also what are the aero regulations for 06 compared to the 05 rules? I like the idea of the new aero ideas for 07, but this constant changing has got to be brutal for the finances of the lower budget teams.
| TimStevens | 10-24-2005 12:59 PM |
Ok... so they get refueled at the end of the 20 min session... what's to stop someone from pulling into the garage and sucking all the fuel out, or some enterprising team coming up with an engine mapping that runs super dooper rich for a lap and blows half the tank of gas out the exhaust pipes so that the car is running on fumes on the 19th minute?
| bemani | 10-24-2005 01:02 PM |
Besides the car's drag and downforce, now a team can spend extra money to defeat the wing and make sure the air behind the car is as dirty as possible too!
| mr2guru | 10-24-2005 01:09 PM |
[QUOTE=bemani]Besides the car's drag and downforce, now a team can spend extra money to defeat the wing and make sure the air behind the car is as dirty as possible too![/QUOTE]
If the wings are spec it is going to be hard to do that and not spoil downforce.
A trade off probably...less downforce for your own car and less for drafting car too. :lol:
If the wings are spec it is going to be hard to do that and not spoil downforce.
A trade off probably...less downforce for your own car and less for drafting car too. :lol:
| AndyRoo | 10-24-2005 01:09 PM |
interesting stuff!
this probably means an end to the front running car being 30 seconds ahead of the next car :lol:
- andrew
this probably means an end to the front running car being 30 seconds ahead of the next car :lol:
- andrew
| AndyRoo | 10-24-2005 01:12 PM |
Does this mean that running the wing(s?) with less downforce will result in less downforce for the following car?
the engineers are gonna have a lot of fun deciding how to set the wings this first season.
the engineers are gonna have a lot of fun deciding how to set the wings this first season.
| Ferg | 10-24-2005 01:43 PM |
And the drama starts...
[QUOTE]Team bosses doubtful on radical wing
By Jonathan Noble Monday, 24 October 2005 17:27
The FIA's hopes of getting their radical double-winged car into Formula One for 2007 are likely to be dashed, according to team bosses who claim that it will be too difficult to get the necessary approval before the end of this year.
Although a meeting of the Formula One Commission in London on Monday voted in favour of adopting the slick-tyred wide Centreline Downwash Generating (CDG) wing car as early as 2007, the requirement for eight out of ten teams to back the plans in the Technical Working Group may still prove to be too much.
Speaking to Autosport-Atlas immediately after the F1 Commission meeting, Minardi boss Paul Stoddart believed that the plans for the radical car may have to be put on hold until 2008.
"If eight out of 10 TWG members don't approve it, then it is not going any further at this stage - and I would put money on that happening," he said. "I don't think they will be in for 2007.
"The single tyre manufacturer rule has also been linked to them, so there is an argument that there might not be a single tyre for 2007 either. Will we get the eight votes with this design? I doubt it, but we will see."
Frank Williams believed that it was not going to be straightforward to get the 2007 regulations finalised before the end of the year - although he claimed it would be great for the sport if the car actually did increase excitement as much as has been predicted.
"I think there is total support for it, but the only thing that worries me is that there are just two months from tomorrow until Christmas for us to agree," he told Autosport-Atlas.
"There may be structural problems to overcome, with wings falling off, or vast turbulence created behind the cars, although that is being unduly negative but to get it done and tested is a lot of work."
When asked what his personal opinions were on the concept and look of the CDG car, Williams added: "I thought I would hate it, but you get used to it quickly.
"If it delivers then 'Wow!' One's dream is to participate in a sport that every person in the world wants to watch. I think if we had the final of the World Cup 19 times a year - isn't that your dream as a motor racing nutcase."
One team boss, who did not wish to be identified, said he also doubted the rules would get the support needed in the TWG meeting.
"I cannot see if happening," he said. "There is optimistic wishful thinking for all the right reasons to make it happen for 2007, but I doubt we can do it."
FIA president Max Mosley countered the team bosses' views on Monday, however, when he said that he was optimistic the TWG would approve the concept of the car.
"Everyone who has seen the cars is very enthusiastic about it, so unless there is an unforeseen difficulty it will all be okay," he said.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Team bosses doubtful on radical wing
By Jonathan Noble Monday, 24 October 2005 17:27
The FIA's hopes of getting their radical double-winged car into Formula One for 2007 are likely to be dashed, according to team bosses who claim that it will be too difficult to get the necessary approval before the end of this year.
Although a meeting of the Formula One Commission in London on Monday voted in favour of adopting the slick-tyred wide Centreline Downwash Generating (CDG) wing car as early as 2007, the requirement for eight out of ten teams to back the plans in the Technical Working Group may still prove to be too much.
Speaking to Autosport-Atlas immediately after the F1 Commission meeting, Minardi boss Paul Stoddart believed that the plans for the radical car may have to be put on hold until 2008.
"If eight out of 10 TWG members don't approve it, then it is not going any further at this stage - and I would put money on that happening," he said. "I don't think they will be in for 2007.
"The single tyre manufacturer rule has also been linked to them, so there is an argument that there might not be a single tyre for 2007 either. Will we get the eight votes with this design? I doubt it, but we will see."
Frank Williams believed that it was not going to be straightforward to get the 2007 regulations finalised before the end of the year - although he claimed it would be great for the sport if the car actually did increase excitement as much as has been predicted.
"I think there is total support for it, but the only thing that worries me is that there are just two months from tomorrow until Christmas for us to agree," he told Autosport-Atlas.
"There may be structural problems to overcome, with wings falling off, or vast turbulence created behind the cars, although that is being unduly negative but to get it done and tested is a lot of work."
When asked what his personal opinions were on the concept and look of the CDG car, Williams added: "I thought I would hate it, but you get used to it quickly.
"If it delivers then 'Wow!' One's dream is to participate in a sport that every person in the world wants to watch. I think if we had the final of the World Cup 19 times a year - isn't that your dream as a motor racing nutcase."
One team boss, who did not wish to be identified, said he also doubted the rules would get the support needed in the TWG meeting.
"I cannot see if happening," he said. "There is optimistic wishful thinking for all the right reasons to make it happen for 2007, but I doubt we can do it."
FIA president Max Mosley countered the team bosses' views on Monday, however, when he said that he was optimistic the TWG would approve the concept of the car.
"Everyone who has seen the cars is very enthusiastic about it, so unless there is an unforeseen difficulty it will all be okay," he said.[/QUOTE]
| freshspecbluegt | 10-24-2005 02:01 PM |
Engineers/Aero Experts?
I think I'm missing something on how this wing will increase passing. If the wing creates more downforce for the following car then that advantage is gone once the car steps out to pass and possibly makes the car unstable so how does the wing help pass in the corners? Second once on the straght the wing design can help the following car draft but the reduced downforce for the lead car is going to allow it to accelerate faster and acheive a higher top speed. So hypothetically speaking, if you have two cars of equal horsepower, gearing, and mechanical grip is the following car going to be able to use the draft to overtake or is the the lesser downforce of the lead car going to let it run away down the straight?
I think I'm missing something on how this wing will increase passing. If the wing creates more downforce for the following car then that advantage is gone once the car steps out to pass and possibly makes the car unstable so how does the wing help pass in the corners? Second once on the straght the wing design can help the following car draft but the reduced downforce for the lead car is going to allow it to accelerate faster and acheive a higher top speed. So hypothetically speaking, if you have two cars of equal horsepower, gearing, and mechanical grip is the following car going to be able to use the draft to overtake or is the the lesser downforce of the lead car going to let it run away down the straight?
| TimStevens | 10-24-2005 02:07 PM |
The new rear wing will create less of a vaccum behind it, which will allow cars that are following to get close in corners without losing d/f on their front wings.
And, regarding acceleration on the straight, yes presumably this new wing will result in less drag and relatively faster acceleration than a car with a full wing, but all cars will have the same "spec" wing (theoretically), so there'd be no real advantage coming out of a corner.
And, regarding acceleration on the straight, yes presumably this new wing will result in less drag and relatively faster acceleration than a car with a full wing, but all cars will have the same "spec" wing (theoretically), so there'd be no real advantage coming out of a corner.
| Dussander | 10-24-2005 03:33 PM |
Let me try to comment, please correct me if I'm wrong:
Front and rear wings use air pressure to generate downforce (good), this air pressure and wings also generate drag (bad). The current problem is that a car in front reduces the air pressure for the car behind it mostly on the front wing, but also reduces drag on that car. The loss of drag is OK in a straight, where you can slip stream (speed up while behind a car), but in a turn it will hurt when you lose front downforce. The loss of downforce is most annoying because it is not even across the car, thus you get nasty understeer.
The new design is suppose to not reduce the pressure for a car following. It seems to even increase the pressure a bit if you are real close. This *should* hurt slip stream on a straight since the following car will get extra downforce and drag on the front of the car. In a turn it will hurt less then the current solution since you should be able to stay close behind a nearly equal car and potentially get a good launch off a turn leading into a straight, but you will probably want to drive that straight off line. If the pressure actually increases too much for the following car, they could get a balance issue in turns (oversteer). But I suspect they will quickly learn the distance for about normal pressure to avoid any oversteer.
BUT, the real proof is when the teams test out this *theory* and find that it doesn't have some unforseen faults (like this years aero).
Front and rear wings use air pressure to generate downforce (good), this air pressure and wings also generate drag (bad). The current problem is that a car in front reduces the air pressure for the car behind it mostly on the front wing, but also reduces drag on that car. The loss of drag is OK in a straight, where you can slip stream (speed up while behind a car), but in a turn it will hurt when you lose front downforce. The loss of downforce is most annoying because it is not even across the car, thus you get nasty understeer.
The new design is suppose to not reduce the pressure for a car following. It seems to even increase the pressure a bit if you are real close. This *should* hurt slip stream on a straight since the following car will get extra downforce and drag on the front of the car. In a turn it will hurt less then the current solution since you should be able to stay close behind a nearly equal car and potentially get a good launch off a turn leading into a straight, but you will probably want to drive that straight off line. If the pressure actually increases too much for the following car, they could get a balance issue in turns (oversteer). But I suspect they will quickly learn the distance for about normal pressure to avoid any oversteer.
BUT, the real proof is when the teams test out this *theory* and find that it doesn't have some unforseen faults (like this years aero).
| NattiRex | 10-24-2005 05:46 PM |
I think alot of us are speculating on the effects with out first hand knowledge of the handling cheriteristics of a downforce dependant car... not that i have driven one but everything i have read says that going through a corner at 80- in an F1 car is far more stable than going through a 40 because the downforce is EXPECTED when they set up the car, thus increasing down force in a turn (lets face it they sledom drop below 40 MPH anyways) is going to help in corcers for sure. Drafting... ehhh i think the draft will be lessened but not lost, passing in corners ism ore exciting anyways... I also think that muc like BTCS and other smaller racing bodies this puts a penalty on the leader (othe series use werights based on over standing, wins...) to continue to out drive... it will make it exciting i think... just my .02
| 8Complex | 10-24-2005 06:23 PM |
Am I the only one that doesn't think that wing design is "radical"? Honestly, I think it makes a lot of sense, and decreasing the amount of downforce all the cars have is a good way to keep speeds down, which in turn will make the race depend even more upon skill.
And actually, I think it looks quite good.
And actually, I think it looks quite good.
| freshspecbluegt | 10-24-2005 08:23 PM |
[QUOTE=Dussander]
BUT, the real proof is when the teams test out this *theory* and find that it doesn't have some unforseen faults (like this years aero).[/QUOTE]
The real proof will come if they use the wings at Spa running nose to tail flat out through Eu Rouge :eek:
BUT, the real proof is when the teams test out this *theory* and find that it doesn't have some unforseen faults (like this years aero).[/QUOTE]
The real proof will come if they use the wings at Spa running nose to tail flat out through Eu Rouge :eek:
| Ferg | 11-04-2005 07:16 PM |
So if the new wing creates a low pressure area higher up...
Won't that basically be right around the following car's airbox?
How much horsepower will the car behind lose?
Won't that basically be right around the following car's airbox?
How much horsepower will the car behind lose?
| goto_racing | 11-04-2005 07:52 PM |
[QUOTE=artkevin]Just in case you need proof that it will work. :)
[IMG]http://images.f1racing.net/large/53364.jpg[/IMG]
Seriously...What else do you need?[/QUOTE]
If this diagram is true, this also illustrates how this wing will produce no downforce to speak of. The force required to move that mass of air skyward is your downforce. There is no real way to have your cake and eat it too in this case. Why not just take the wing off? Same effect.
Chris Lock
[IMG]http://images.f1racing.net/large/53364.jpg[/IMG]
Seriously...What else do you need?[/QUOTE]
If this diagram is true, this also illustrates how this wing will produce no downforce to speak of. The force required to move that mass of air skyward is your downforce. There is no real way to have your cake and eat it too in this case. Why not just take the wing off? Same effect.
Chris Lock
| speedyHAM | 11-04-2005 08:11 PM |
[QUOTE=goto_racing]If this diagram is true, this also illustrates how this wing will produce no downforce to speak of. The force required to move that mass of air skyward is your downforce. There is no real way to have your cake and eat it too in this case. Why not just take the wing off? Same effect.
Chris Lock[/QUOTE]
The problem with that diagram is that it is trying to represent a 3 dimensional flow with a 2 dimensional slice of information. What I suspect is going on it that the new wing causes a airflow profile similar to (but less than) the first figure directly behing the rear wheels and the second figure represents a centerline airflow profile.
The following car would benefit from the smoother flow around the center of the front wing the most. It would cause teams to totally redesign their cars front and rear wings to take advantage of the new rules as well as keep the car balanced aerodynamically.
A lousy idea in my opinion.
Chris Lock[/QUOTE]
The problem with that diagram is that it is trying to represent a 3 dimensional flow with a 2 dimensional slice of information. What I suspect is going on it that the new wing causes a airflow profile similar to (but less than) the first figure directly behing the rear wheels and the second figure represents a centerline airflow profile.
The following car would benefit from the smoother flow around the center of the front wing the most. It would cause teams to totally redesign their cars front and rear wings to take advantage of the new rules as well as keep the car balanced aerodynamically.
A lousy idea in my opinion.
| GarySheehan | 11-04-2005 08:32 PM |
Chris,
You can't get rid of the wings because it's prime real estate for sponsorship.
I think what speedyHAM said is most likely true. The diagam is showing the centerline airflow. I think his opinion of it being a lousy idea because the smooth air will only hit the center of the following car is shortsighted. There's no reason not to step out a foot or so to get that clean air on a wing plane. At least there is that option rather than a turbulent wash of air off the leading car that is wider than the car following.
I think this is a great idea of allowing cars to run closer while maintaining a lot of the look of F1. F1 cars without wings would look silly. But that's the real solution to running close. Look at sedans.
To those worried about aero imbalance, there's nothing wrong with redesigning the front wing to generate significantly less downforce to match the rear. Saying the teams will need to spend more money to do this is ridiculous. They redesign their front wings multiple times throughout the year. They design entirely new cars every year. This is a nit.
If this leads to more "racing" on the track while keeping the look of F1 relatively intact, I'm all for it!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
You can't get rid of the wings because it's prime real estate for sponsorship.
I think what speedyHAM said is most likely true. The diagam is showing the centerline airflow. I think his opinion of it being a lousy idea because the smooth air will only hit the center of the following car is shortsighted. There's no reason not to step out a foot or so to get that clean air on a wing plane. At least there is that option rather than a turbulent wash of air off the leading car that is wider than the car following.
I think this is a great idea of allowing cars to run closer while maintaining a lot of the look of F1. F1 cars without wings would look silly. But that's the real solution to running close. Look at sedans.
To those worried about aero imbalance, there's nothing wrong with redesigning the front wing to generate significantly less downforce to match the rear. Saying the teams will need to spend more money to do this is ridiculous. They redesign their front wings multiple times throughout the year. They design entirely new cars every year. This is a nit.
If this leads to more "racing" on the track while keeping the look of F1 relatively intact, I'm all for it!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Homemade WRX | 11-05-2005 01:31 AM |
I'm just wondering how much they are going to love the turbulent air coming over top of the tires...which are directly infront of about 80% of there wing
| wvallwheeldrive | 11-05-2005 11:59 AM |
no matter what the do or change the multi-billion dollor teams are still going the run away with f-1, they have the money to change the stuff then research it to make it work will the small teams run out of money just changing to the new rules
| wvallwheeldrive | 11-05-2005 12:07 PM |
and about the new qualifing the fastest teams get the most time on the track gaining notes and getting faster thats a good way to even the playing feild
| artkevin | 11-05-2005 12:56 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]Chris,
You can't get rid of the wings because it's prime real estate for sponsorship.
I think what speedyHAM said is most likely true. The diagam is showing the centerline airflow. I think his opinion of it being a lousy idea because the smooth air will only hit the center of the following car is shortsighted. There's no reason not to step out a foot or so to get that clean air on a wing plane. At least there is that option rather than a turbulent wash of air off the leading car that is wider than the car following.
I think this is a great idea of allowing cars to run closer while maintaining a lot of the look of F1. F1 cars without wings would look silly. But that's the real solution to running close. Look at sedans.
To those worried about aero imbalance, there's nothing wrong with redesigning the front wing to generate significantly less downforce to match the rear. Saying the teams will need to spend more money to do this is ridiculous. They redesign their front wings multiple times throughout the year. They design entirely new cars every year. This is a nit.
If this leads to more "racing" on the track while keeping the look of F1 relatively intact, I'm all for it!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
I agree with you for the most part but I am worried about "dumbing" it down and slowing it down to the point that they could be slower then other formulas. I really think they need to look at the GP2 series for how races with winged cars can be done. I am also one of the few people that was happy with the level of passing in the past couple of years. If it wasn't for Ferrari dominating F1 for 5 years I don't think this would be a serious discussion IMHO.
You can't get rid of the wings because it's prime real estate for sponsorship.
I think what speedyHAM said is most likely true. The diagam is showing the centerline airflow. I think his opinion of it being a lousy idea because the smooth air will only hit the center of the following car is shortsighted. There's no reason not to step out a foot or so to get that clean air on a wing plane. At least there is that option rather than a turbulent wash of air off the leading car that is wider than the car following.
I think this is a great idea of allowing cars to run closer while maintaining a lot of the look of F1. F1 cars without wings would look silly. But that's the real solution to running close. Look at sedans.
To those worried about aero imbalance, there's nothing wrong with redesigning the front wing to generate significantly less downforce to match the rear. Saying the teams will need to spend more money to do this is ridiculous. They redesign their front wings multiple times throughout the year. They design entirely new cars every year. This is a nit.
If this leads to more "racing" on the track while keeping the look of F1 relatively intact, I'm all for it!
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
I agree with you for the most part but I am worried about "dumbing" it down and slowing it down to the point that they could be slower then other formulas. I really think they need to look at the GP2 series for how races with winged cars can be done. I am also one of the few people that was happy with the level of passing in the past couple of years. If it wasn't for Ferrari dominating F1 for 5 years I don't think this would be a serious discussion IMHO.
| GarySheehan | 11-05-2005 01:23 PM |
artkevin,
You are contradicting yourself. You said you are worried about dumbing it down, but then you refer to a spec series to get aero ideas.
The new formula will trade off some cornering speed (overall loss of downforce) for straight line speed (overall reduced drag). The loss of cornering speed will be counteracted by wider track and full slick tires. With these changes alone I would think the lap times wouldn't be too far off of what they are today. Of course, the new engine package will have a huge effect.
Regarding qualifying, I would be happy to see them go back to an open session with whatever fuel they want, with refueling allowed after quali.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
You are contradicting yourself. You said you are worried about dumbing it down, but then you refer to a spec series to get aero ideas.
The new formula will trade off some cornering speed (overall loss of downforce) for straight line speed (overall reduced drag). The loss of cornering speed will be counteracted by wider track and full slick tires. With these changes alone I would think the lap times wouldn't be too far off of what they are today. Of course, the new engine package will have a huge effect.
Regarding qualifying, I would be happy to see them go back to an open session with whatever fuel they want, with refueling allowed after quali.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| artkevin | 11-05-2005 02:13 PM |
I guess what I was trying to say Gary was that I like the ground effects of GP2. Those guys/kids are able to run nose to tail lap after lap. F1 has moved away from ground effects and I guess I don't see why they are not a reasonable option for F1. I still want creativity and ingenuity to be the focus of F1 design but maybe open the rules to allow more creativity. Maybe I'm just spouting off at the cake hole. I don't know.
| Ferg | 11-05-2005 09:25 PM |
I liked the FIA's original idea of imposing a maximum limit on downforce...
Sadly there just doesn't seem to be anyway whatsoever of enforcing it.
And Kevin you're right on about the GP2 cars...even Bernie has said he would love to F1 move in that direction. I'm not so worried about F1 becoming a spec series...hell, some of the best seasons in the sport where back when everyone (sans Ferrari and a few others) had a "spec" Cosworth DFV. Design and build a chassis, buy an engine and a gearbox, go racing. Tyrell did this out of a shop in the back of their lumber yard and took three championships.
Bernie...
[QUOTE]"For a start, if you went into the grandstand, and asked the people there, 'Do the cars have automatic or manual gearboxes?' most of them wouldn't know. If you asked them about most things, they wouldn't know...all they know is that the racing isn't very good. Actually it's been good this year, but prior to that, it wasn't.
I'm not in favor of a reduction in horsepower. I said to Max early on that instead of reducing the capacity of the engine we should cut the power by limiting the revs. No one wanted to know, but probably we'll end up doing that with the 2.4 anyway because otherwise they're going to be spending a fortune to get another seven horsepower. All we've done is put the cost of engines up....
If the power's coming down, I'd like to see the weight limit reduced. Instead of sticking, in some cases, 90 kilos of ballast underneath, let's reduce the weight of the car. I'd also like to see smaller brakes, or less efficient brakes. And the tyre situation isn't good..suddenly you can find a second a lap out of the tyres, so some people are straining the limit. If we don't go to a 'one manufacturer' rule, we're going to be in plenty of trouble. It's important to reduce the necessity for so much testing, because the costs are Christ knows how much.
I want them to stop sticking all these horrible looking bits and pieces on the cars, so they can be tucked in closely through a corner. Look at the GP2 cars, the can race like F1 cars used to do."
And, last, what of the 'gizmos'? Mosley invariably says that he would love to get rid of traction control, but can't do it because the manufacturers won't accept the idea of a standard ECU. If a standard ECU were imposed, would the manufactueres dissapear?
"Well. they'll dissapear when it suits them, anyway. They always have, and they always will."[/QUOTE]
Sadly there just doesn't seem to be anyway whatsoever of enforcing it.
And Kevin you're right on about the GP2 cars...even Bernie has said he would love to F1 move in that direction. I'm not so worried about F1 becoming a spec series...hell, some of the best seasons in the sport where back when everyone (sans Ferrari and a few others) had a "spec" Cosworth DFV. Design and build a chassis, buy an engine and a gearbox, go racing. Tyrell did this out of a shop in the back of their lumber yard and took three championships.
Bernie...
[QUOTE]"For a start, if you went into the grandstand, and asked the people there, 'Do the cars have automatic or manual gearboxes?' most of them wouldn't know. If you asked them about most things, they wouldn't know...all they know is that the racing isn't very good. Actually it's been good this year, but prior to that, it wasn't.
I'm not in favor of a reduction in horsepower. I said to Max early on that instead of reducing the capacity of the engine we should cut the power by limiting the revs. No one wanted to know, but probably we'll end up doing that with the 2.4 anyway because otherwise they're going to be spending a fortune to get another seven horsepower. All we've done is put the cost of engines up....
If the power's coming down, I'd like to see the weight limit reduced. Instead of sticking, in some cases, 90 kilos of ballast underneath, let's reduce the weight of the car. I'd also like to see smaller brakes, or less efficient brakes. And the tyre situation isn't good..suddenly you can find a second a lap out of the tyres, so some people are straining the limit. If we don't go to a 'one manufacturer' rule, we're going to be in plenty of trouble. It's important to reduce the necessity for so much testing, because the costs are Christ knows how much.
I want them to stop sticking all these horrible looking bits and pieces on the cars, so they can be tucked in closely through a corner. Look at the GP2 cars, the can race like F1 cars used to do."
And, last, what of the 'gizmos'? Mosley invariably says that he would love to get rid of traction control, but can't do it because the manufacturers won't accept the idea of a standard ECU. If a standard ECU were imposed, would the manufactueres dissapear?
"Well. they'll dissapear when it suits them, anyway. They always have, and they always will."[/QUOTE]
| meebs | 11-06-2005 01:18 AM |
[QUOTE=artkevin]I guess what I was trying to say Gary was that I like the ground effects of GP2. Those guys/kids are able to run nose to tail lap after lap. F1 has moved away from ground effects and I guess I don't see why they are not a reasonable option for F1. I still want creativity and ingenuity to be the focus of F1 design but maybe open the rules to allow more creativity. Maybe I'm just spouting off at the cake hole. I don't know.[/QUOTE]
You're not just spouting off... I agree with you completely. People think that F1 has no soul because there's no passing and that's boring. What you just stated was in fact what turned me on to F1 in the first place. Each team is it's own entity. They really come up with their own solution. It's not just a display of the driver's skill, but also of the team, the design department, the mechanics and so on. Specing F1 would be a bad idea... at least for my interest. Each team has it's own identity, that is what I like so much about it, compared to other racing series like IRL, CART, or NASCAR. The only other series I'm really able to get into is the WRC because of the same aspects (team identity).
You're not just spouting off... I agree with you completely. People think that F1 has no soul because there's no passing and that's boring. What you just stated was in fact what turned me on to F1 in the first place. Each team is it's own entity. They really come up with their own solution. It's not just a display of the driver's skill, but also of the team, the design department, the mechanics and so on. Specing F1 would be a bad idea... at least for my interest. Each team has it's own identity, that is what I like so much about it, compared to other racing series like IRL, CART, or NASCAR. The only other series I'm really able to get into is the WRC because of the same aspects (team identity).
| GarySheehan | 11-07-2005 01:46 AM |
artkevin raised a good point. The ground effects of GP2 would help keep cornering speeds high without disrupting airflow to cars behind. I think bringing back ground effects AND using the new rear wing would work well together.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamsmr.com[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamsmr.com[/url]
| davis10 | 11-07-2005 02:10 AM |
sounds like it may endanger the drivers more to me
| GarySheehan | 11-07-2005 08:45 AM |
How so?
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| CirrusWRX | 11-07-2005 12:37 PM |
[quote]...Grooved tyres are able to be outlawed because there will only be a single tyre manufacturer allowed in F1 after the end of next year...[/quote]
did I miss the announcement of said "single tyre manufacturer"
:confused:
Will Michi go into a hissy fit if they're not selected? Will Bridgestone cry foul and "favoritism" if they're not given a fair shot at it?
did I miss the announcement of said "single tyre manufacturer"
:confused:
Will Michi go into a hissy fit if they're not selected? Will Bridgestone cry foul and "favoritism" if they're not given a fair shot at it?
| Ferg | 11-07-2005 02:19 PM |
It'll be Michelin who decides to leave when F1 returns to a single tire supplier. They have stated many times they have zero interst in becoming the sole tire supplier for Formula One.
Bridgestone have already been the only tire company in the past and I imagine they won't have much trouble doing it again.
Posting this again for some input.
[QUOTE]So if the new wing creates a low pressure area higher up...
Won't that basically be right around the following car's airbox?
How much horsepower will the car behind lose?[/QUOTE]
Bridgestone have already been the only tire company in the past and I imagine they won't have much trouble doing it again.
Posting this again for some input.
[QUOTE]So if the new wing creates a low pressure area higher up...
Won't that basically be right around the following car's airbox?
How much horsepower will the car behind lose?[/QUOTE]
| Mark Avery | 11-08-2005 12:40 AM |
[QUOTE=Ferg]So if the new wing creates a low pressure area higher up...
Won't that basically be right around the following car's airbox?[/QUOTE]If you look at the two graphics with the pretty colors, you'll see that where the airbox would be for a closely following car has more air pressure with the proposed double wingies than it does with the current wing.
I've been hoping for years they would change the regs to mandate more reliance on mechanical grip and less on aero, so cars can follow closely through corners and I get a chance to see a race instead of a parade.
Won't that basically be right around the following car's airbox?[/QUOTE]If you look at the two graphics with the pretty colors, you'll see that where the airbox would be for a closely following car has more air pressure with the proposed double wingies than it does with the current wing.
I've been hoping for years they would change the regs to mandate more reliance on mechanical grip and less on aero, so cars can follow closely through corners and I get a chance to see a race instead of a parade.
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