| Surgical22 | 04-28-2005 07:34 PM |
HELMETS: Expensive or Cheap
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I've been doing a lot of researchg on helmets lately, mainly because I need to pick one up for drag and Auto-X, plus I'm getting my bike back this summer.....
So I posted a thread in the wanted section, saying I was looking for a helmet, and I didnt want to spend more than $75 or so. Everyone seemed to think I should spend $500+ becuase "whats your life worth to you....blah blah."
So, in light of this, I did lots of reading online, and went to THREE shops today.
Here is what I have gathered:
1. A DOT/SNELL approved helmet costing $75 (HJC)or $600(ARIAS) will protect you in the event of a crash to the same standard. With the extra $575 you are buying:
a.comfort
b.vents
c.style
d.removable inserts
e.lighter weight exotic materials
f.possibly a paint job
g.name brand
Now, I really dont care to hear if you are an EMT, and youve seen XXX number of people dead and they had a cheap helmet on. There is no way to tell in each specific case that they would have lived wearing a $500 BELL.
IMO, it's the IMPACT that kills people. If your dome hits a solid object moving 60-70MPH, you're done. Game over. I dont care what youre wearing.
Helmets will protect from [i]minor impact[/i], fragmentation, fire, glass, road rash and so on.
Now with all the in mind, I'm sure some people will read this who have purchased a very expensive helmet....so please dont base your opinion on what you have, but rather FACTS.
I could not find ANYWHERE that stated "for this reason, you need to buy helmet X...it is much safer and will save your life where other helmets will not"
"just in case" really is not a reason to spend that much. IMO, companies play on your fear to make a KILLING off of $25 worth of raw materials.
So I posted a thread in the wanted section, saying I was looking for a helmet, and I didnt want to spend more than $75 or so. Everyone seemed to think I should spend $500+ becuase "whats your life worth to you....blah blah."
So, in light of this, I did lots of reading online, and went to THREE shops today.
Here is what I have gathered:
1. A DOT/SNELL approved helmet costing $75 (HJC)or $600(ARIAS) will protect you in the event of a crash to the same standard. With the extra $575 you are buying:
a.comfort
b.vents
c.style
d.removable inserts
e.lighter weight exotic materials
f.possibly a paint job
g.name brand
Now, I really dont care to hear if you are an EMT, and youve seen XXX number of people dead and they had a cheap helmet on. There is no way to tell in each specific case that they would have lived wearing a $500 BELL.
IMO, it's the IMPACT that kills people. If your dome hits a solid object moving 60-70MPH, you're done. Game over. I dont care what youre wearing.
Helmets will protect from [i]minor impact[/i], fragmentation, fire, glass, road rash and so on.
Now with all the in mind, I'm sure some people will read this who have purchased a very expensive helmet....so please dont base your opinion on what you have, but rather FACTS.
I could not find ANYWHERE that stated "for this reason, you need to buy helmet X...it is much safer and will save your life where other helmets will not"
"just in case" really is not a reason to spend that much. IMO, companies play on your fear to make a KILLING off of $25 worth of raw materials.
| Chandy69 | 04-28-2005 07:37 PM |
Dude wear a jock strap thats the only head you need protect.
The other one is useless.
15 bucks
Chuck
The other one is useless.
15 bucks
Chuck
| Skibum4444 | 04-28-2005 08:02 PM |
Dont go cheap, you owe yourself better, especially if your riding a motorcycle.
| itsawagon | 04-28-2005 08:09 PM |
lol i guess it depends on how much you value your head :p
i spent $125 on a go-kart/autox helmet (made by Vega, purchased at the kart track). if i were to get a hold of a open wheel track car i'd want something more quality.
i spent $125 on a go-kart/autox helmet (made by Vega, purchased at the kart track). if i were to get a hold of a open wheel track car i'd want something more quality.
| erip | 04-28-2005 08:12 PM |
I just picked up a $75 bell open face off ebay for autocrossing. used to ride bikes for a little while and did some research back then. the crash ratings on helmets is a standard of safety. all helmets that pass XXX rating pass it the same. regardless of price they all protect at the same level. as far as riding i would always get a full face because i think it's smarter but other than that get a good safety rating and you should be fine. i think you're right on the appeal to fear factor or something to that effect to sell more expensive helmets. r&d is expensive as are exotic materials which can drive up the price on the latest and greatest but it still protects the same as the cheaper helmet of the same safety rating.
my $.02
my $.02
| Surgical22 | 04-28-2005 08:17 PM |
[QUOTE=Skibum4444]Dont go cheap, you owe yourself better, especially if your riding a motorcycle.[/QUOTE]
OK, but WHY....thats kinda the whole purpose of this post. Is it worth it and WHY. Back it up with facts. I want to know if there is any proof that helmet X protects better than helmet Y.
OK, but WHY....thats kinda the whole purpose of this post. Is it worth it and WHY. Back it up with facts. I want to know if there is any proof that helmet X protects better than helmet Y.
| fastwrx | 04-28-2005 08:44 PM |
[QUOTE=Surgical22]OK, but WHY....thats kinda the whole purpose of this post. Is it worth it and WHY. Back it up with facts. I want to know if there is any proof that helmet X protects better than helmet Y.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's possible to PROVE that helmet X is better than Y. If they meet the same standards (SNELL), one would assume the protection is the same.
HOWEVER... here are some reasons why you might choose X over Y:
A better fit. Different helmets are made on differently shaped molds. Some are more oval. Some are more round. I think the fit is the #1 feature to look for (assuming SNELL is up to date). A good fit will ensure comfort AND protection.
Features such as ventilation, interchangable visors, etc. (as you mentioned above)
Company / manufacturer reputation. Some of us are willing to pay more for a manufacturer that has a good history of service and quality. I know this is a biggie for me after a good fit.
When I bought mine (closed face), I tried on a variety of brands and price tags. Fortunately, the Arai (almost $1000) didn't fit my head at all! However, the OMP Formula 1 (wide eye port) fit me perfectly (about $450, I think).
Mike
I don't think it's possible to PROVE that helmet X is better than Y. If they meet the same standards (SNELL), one would assume the protection is the same.
HOWEVER... here are some reasons why you might choose X over Y:
A better fit. Different helmets are made on differently shaped molds. Some are more oval. Some are more round. I think the fit is the #1 feature to look for (assuming SNELL is up to date). A good fit will ensure comfort AND protection.
Features such as ventilation, interchangable visors, etc. (as you mentioned above)
Company / manufacturer reputation. Some of us are willing to pay more for a manufacturer that has a good history of service and quality. I know this is a biggie for me after a good fit.
When I bought mine (closed face), I tried on a variety of brands and price tags. Fortunately, the Arai (almost $1000) didn't fit my head at all! However, the OMP Formula 1 (wide eye port) fit me perfectly (about $450, I think).
Mike
| MattSTi | 04-28-2005 08:45 PM |
I think you should add another category for moderately priced helmets, because 150-700 is a little too broad. I personally went with a bell m2 which was about 275.
-matt
-matt
| Surgical22 | 04-28-2005 08:56 PM |
Well it was basically $150 and up. Reason being, is there are a TON of helmets <150 and >150 ranges.
Yeah I should have added one in-between. Funny you should mention the bell M2. I am actually considering buying this one on EBay. I emailed him and he said he would take $200 for it. Radio mic/headset installed (not like I need it)
[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7970693026&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1[/url]
fastwrx: you bring up a good point. A helmet MUST fit right in order to properly protect.....Proper fittament is not necessarily a expensive vs. cheap issue though, and I know you didnt say it was. Everyones gord is shaped different....
Yeah I should have added one in-between. Funny you should mention the bell M2. I am actually considering buying this one on EBay. I emailed him and he said he would take $200 for it. Radio mic/headset installed (not like I need it)
[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7970693026&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1[/url]
fastwrx: you bring up a good point. A helmet MUST fit right in order to properly protect.....Proper fittament is not necessarily a expensive vs. cheap issue though, and I know you didnt say it was. Everyones gord is shaped different....
| code2128 | 04-28-2005 08:56 PM |
Better manufacturing, design and materials are the difference. A helmet is kinda of like an egg shell around an egg(your head). The tighter the manufacturing tolerances the better chance the helmet will deflect blows to the head(get your minds out of the gutter)as it was designed to. Better materials play a part in this, as well as creating a lighter helmet which will fatigue the wearer less and keep ones neck muscles from stretching that much more. Open face considered pointless by most professionals on four wheels.
| ewright | 04-28-2005 09:12 PM |
i got a HJC for auto-x and track events about a year ago (spent $100) and it works great. although this works for me I would probably reccomend spending more since you are going to be using yours much more often and you will be on a bike, so I would spend more to get the nicer, more comfortable, lighter helmet. just my 0.02
ernie
ernie
| Cosworth | 04-28-2005 09:17 PM |
I think you have a very valid point. Many folks go on heresay and name brands but as far as the rating goes, that's where you should *start*. From there, look at how it fits. name brand, color and features should be after later.
I recently have been shopping for a new lid myself primarily for motorcycling. I've found only 2 brands that fit out of the many out there. Arai and Suomy. The rest (Shoei, AGV, KBC, Nolan, OKG, etc) did not have even *one* model that fit me right. That leaves me with only two expensive brands to choose from.
There is no way i'm going to resort to a cheap, ill-fitting OKG bucket just to save a buck. Not on long rides or twisty mountain roads or track days. Not just for comfort, but an improperly fitting helmet is unsafe. Too big and it can slip off. Too roomy and its painful as it bobbles around in the wind. Too tight and your ears will pay dearly.
Going back to my personal fitment, i'm going to need to get another Arai. Suomy fit great as well, but they are not SNELL certified. It's not required for road use (only DOT certification), however, in lieu of it they use a BSI (british standards institute) stamp of approval. Supposedly, the BSI rating is more stringent than SNELL, but that doesn't mean **** when you're racing with an organization that requires SNELL XX.
A lot of people will make the common analogy of, "Do you have a $100 head or a $1000 head?" Well, i tell them neither. My skull is probably worth a lot more than (however you want to quantify it) that so you can't assume the most expensive helmet is "the best". There is one or more out there that are the "right one" for you, and it may be the expensive one or it may not.
I recently have been shopping for a new lid myself primarily for motorcycling. I've found only 2 brands that fit out of the many out there. Arai and Suomy. The rest (Shoei, AGV, KBC, Nolan, OKG, etc) did not have even *one* model that fit me right. That leaves me with only two expensive brands to choose from.
There is no way i'm going to resort to a cheap, ill-fitting OKG bucket just to save a buck. Not on long rides or twisty mountain roads or track days. Not just for comfort, but an improperly fitting helmet is unsafe. Too big and it can slip off. Too roomy and its painful as it bobbles around in the wind. Too tight and your ears will pay dearly.
Going back to my personal fitment, i'm going to need to get another Arai. Suomy fit great as well, but they are not SNELL certified. It's not required for road use (only DOT certification), however, in lieu of it they use a BSI (british standards institute) stamp of approval. Supposedly, the BSI rating is more stringent than SNELL, but that doesn't mean **** when you're racing with an organization that requires SNELL XX.
A lot of people will make the common analogy of, "Do you have a $100 head or a $1000 head?" Well, i tell them neither. My skull is probably worth a lot more than (however you want to quantify it) that so you can't assume the most expensive helmet is "the best". There is one or more out there that are the "right one" for you, and it may be the expensive one or it may not.
| Surgical22 | 04-28-2005 09:24 PM |
[QUOTE=ewright]..... yours much more often and you will be on a bike, so I would spend more to get the nicer, more comfortable, lighter helmet. just my 0.02
ernie[/QUOTE]
I'm just a sunny day rider, no crazy twisties or track days on the bike....
ernie[/QUOTE]
I'm just a sunny day rider, no crazy twisties or track days on the bike....
| makofoto | 04-28-2005 09:29 PM |
I started with a cheap motorcycle M2000 helmet for AX ... but then wanted and needed a better helmet for track days ... so ... the cheap helmet was a waste of money on the one hand ... on the other hand, it's nice to have an extra helmet to loan out.
Make sure your helmet is TIGHT. A lot of people buy helmets too loose. And they will loosen up ... so usually, it seems ... your helmet should be almost uncomfortable tight when you FIRST try it on. Your head should not be able to move around inside the helmet ...
Make sure your helmet is TIGHT. A lot of people buy helmets too loose. And they will loosen up ... so usually, it seems ... your helmet should be almost uncomfortable tight when you FIRST try it on. Your head should not be able to move around inside the helmet ...
| Surgical22 | 04-28-2005 09:39 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]
Make sure your helmet is TIGHT. A lot of people buy helmets too loose. And they will loosen up ... so usually, it seems ... your helmet should be almost uncomfortable tight when you FIRST try it on. Your head should not be able to move around inside the helmet ...[/QUOTE]
I'm thinking of going to an Xsmall vice just a small because of this. How much will it loosen up? The small was just right, but if it loosens up, it will be too big..
You are the third person I have heard say to buy one a tad small.....
Make sure your helmet is TIGHT. A lot of people buy helmets too loose. And they will loosen up ... so usually, it seems ... your helmet should be almost uncomfortable tight when you FIRST try it on. Your head should not be able to move around inside the helmet ...[/QUOTE]
I'm thinking of going to an Xsmall vice just a small because of this. How much will it loosen up? The small was just right, but if it loosens up, it will be too big..
You are the third person I have heard say to buy one a tad small.....
| Surgical22 | 04-28-2005 09:42 PM |
OK, the poll is pissing me off. I see 7 votes for an expensive helmet and one, maybe 2 people posted legit reasons.
| rupertberr | 04-28-2005 10:00 PM |
I have a Bieffe SA2000 that cost me $200. I needed something for RallyCross and Solo but would also be legal for the next step up either in Rally or Road Racing. It's 4 years old and has held together well. I looked at some of the less expensive helmets and the fit and finish just wasn't there. I wouldn't skimp on your head and $200 isn't that expensive. I agree $500 is too much but you don't need to go to the cheap end extreme either.
| Surgical22 | 04-28-2005 10:22 PM |
The other main helmet I am considering is this one...., it was $155 at a local shop
[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7970918613&category=6749[/url]
[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7970918613&category=6749[/url]
| Apex Rex | 04-28-2005 10:22 PM |
If you are looking for a motorcycle helmet, make sure that it has the M rating. Where as if it is for track day events, I would get an SA rated helmet.
The M rating is designed to with-stand a single high-impact hit, falling off a motorcycle for instance. On the other hand, the SA rating is for helmets designed to withstand many smaller impacts, head hitting a roll bar, steering wheel, window, bouncing around inside the car.
I have an M rated helmet for riding motorcycles, and I have an SA2000 Bell M2 for Auto-X/HPDE events. I prefer to use equipment for what it was designed to do, and not mix and match. I understand that I can use an M rated helmet for Auto-X and some HPDEs, but I prefer the lighter weight of my SA helmet while driving :)
And, I would go out and try on as many different helmets as you can and see what fits your head the best. I would spend the money on something that I felt comfortable in, no matter if it was the cheapest or most expensive helmet on the market as long as it met the requirements I was buying it for.
Enjoy,
~Apex
The M rating is designed to with-stand a single high-impact hit, falling off a motorcycle for instance. On the other hand, the SA rating is for helmets designed to withstand many smaller impacts, head hitting a roll bar, steering wheel, window, bouncing around inside the car.
I have an M rated helmet for riding motorcycles, and I have an SA2000 Bell M2 for Auto-X/HPDE events. I prefer to use equipment for what it was designed to do, and not mix and match. I understand that I can use an M rated helmet for Auto-X and some HPDEs, but I prefer the lighter weight of my SA helmet while driving :)
And, I would go out and try on as many different helmets as you can and see what fits your head the best. I would spend the money on something that I felt comfortable in, no matter if it was the cheapest or most expensive helmet on the market as long as it met the requirements I was buying it for.
Enjoy,
~Apex
| slickvic | 04-28-2005 10:44 PM |
I have an M2 that I really like. I would recomend it for the weekend track and autoX warrior.
| XT6Wagon | 04-28-2005 11:53 PM |
I must say that you should DEIFINTELY get a non-open face helmet. Really just how much is your face worth to you? seems like a small price to pay in very minor breathing and vision reduction so that when/if you have a "bad day" you still have a face. Nothing says "ouch" like a broken jaw, or to the bone road rash
| cooleyjb | 04-28-2005 11:56 PM |
Okay the standards for the helmets are all the same within the rating. That is quite obvious as well as those standards being quite high.
So what are the major diffrerences in helmets.
1. Fit-- how does it fit your melon.
2. Materials-- Is it light or heavy etc.
3. Extra Crap-- HANS setup, radio etc....
4. Looks-- Does it really matter
So pricing for those three things
1. Fit-- This varies by manufacturer more than by price
2. Materials-- Lighter materials will cost more. In things like karting and other high-G events lighter is nicer. I ran a Kart with a heavy old Simpson Bandit. By lap 5 I couldn't hold my head up very well. Those 1000 dollar helmets usually don't weigh as much as the 55 dollar helmets
3. Extra Crap-- Ready for Hans, Radio, get em if you need em but in things like auto-x you don't really need it and it just adds weight and cost.
4. Looks-- That's all a matter of personal opinion.
So what is the most important thing. FIT FIT FIT. If it doesn't fit your head shape it will not protect you the way it was designed. PERIOD. I had my wife try on 30+ helmets to get one that fit great. Sure it sucked but man it's worth on so many levels. One it protects her brain, which is important since she is smarter, and two she doesn't complain.
Other things. As some have alluded to earlier open face is not shunned by many people in motorsports including some WRC drivers, NASCAR, Dakar Rally, etc. It's matter of personal comfort for many. You can see more without the full face. Also M rated helmets have a larger eyeport than most SA helmets because of the M standards. Apparently it's nice to have a good field of vision when riding a bike.
So I'll say it again. It comes to comfort which is pretty much how the helmet fits. I haven't gotten my new helmet yet I'm waiting till the 2005 rating is out but when I do I'll try on a bunch until one fits perfect and buy it. Money is no object when it comes to my head.
So what are the major diffrerences in helmets.
1. Fit-- how does it fit your melon.
2. Materials-- Is it light or heavy etc.
3. Extra Crap-- HANS setup, radio etc....
4. Looks-- Does it really matter
So pricing for those three things
1. Fit-- This varies by manufacturer more than by price
2. Materials-- Lighter materials will cost more. In things like karting and other high-G events lighter is nicer. I ran a Kart with a heavy old Simpson Bandit. By lap 5 I couldn't hold my head up very well. Those 1000 dollar helmets usually don't weigh as much as the 55 dollar helmets
3. Extra Crap-- Ready for Hans, Radio, get em if you need em but in things like auto-x you don't really need it and it just adds weight and cost.
4. Looks-- That's all a matter of personal opinion.
So what is the most important thing. FIT FIT FIT. If it doesn't fit your head shape it will not protect you the way it was designed. PERIOD. I had my wife try on 30+ helmets to get one that fit great. Sure it sucked but man it's worth on so many levels. One it protects her brain, which is important since she is smarter, and two she doesn't complain.
Other things. As some have alluded to earlier open face is not shunned by many people in motorsports including some WRC drivers, NASCAR, Dakar Rally, etc. It's matter of personal comfort for many. You can see more without the full face. Also M rated helmets have a larger eyeport than most SA helmets because of the M standards. Apparently it's nice to have a good field of vision when riding a bike.
So I'll say it again. It comes to comfort which is pretty much how the helmet fits. I haven't gotten my new helmet yet I'm waiting till the 2005 rating is out but when I do I'll try on a bunch until one fits perfect and buy it. Money is no object when it comes to my head.
| hotrod | 04-29-2005 12:04 AM |
I also suggest the buying priority is the helmet protection rating first--- not much use if it is not legal for the use intended.
Second, and third is fit and fit.
As above most folks buy them too loose. You should not be able to roll the helmet off your head. If it is that loose it can be thrown off by G forces in an accident.
I think it is Bell that has fitment instructions on their web site.
I had to buy a Bieffee to get a helmet that fit my head right. The Bell that I wanted simply put too much pressure on my forehead and gave me headaches.
A side note, just because a helmet meets Snell xx standard does not mean it has the necessary sticker inside the helmet. Seems that some helmets like Bieffe are sometimes sold with out the snell sticker. Verify that the sticker is there the minute you get your mail order helmet, if not send it back !!
Most expensive is not necessarily the best. At some point you are paying for exotic materials and marketing hype. A good top of the line at about 3/4 max price for the brand is where I am inclined to look first.
Last basic features -- in my case full face is a must --- just because, face reconstruciton is a bummer. There are many cases of folks even in cars that had drivers compartment penetration by fence posts, tree branches, animals and rocks.
Vents anti lift aerodynamics, and visors of course are dependent on your use and personal preferences.
Larry
Second, and third is fit and fit.
As above most folks buy them too loose. You should not be able to roll the helmet off your head. If it is that loose it can be thrown off by G forces in an accident.
I think it is Bell that has fitment instructions on their web site.
I had to buy a Bieffee to get a helmet that fit my head right. The Bell that I wanted simply put too much pressure on my forehead and gave me headaches.
A side note, just because a helmet meets Snell xx standard does not mean it has the necessary sticker inside the helmet. Seems that some helmets like Bieffe are sometimes sold with out the snell sticker. Verify that the sticker is there the minute you get your mail order helmet, if not send it back !!
Most expensive is not necessarily the best. At some point you are paying for exotic materials and marketing hype. A good top of the line at about 3/4 max price for the brand is where I am inclined to look first.
Last basic features -- in my case full face is a must --- just because, face reconstruciton is a bummer. There are many cases of folks even in cars that had drivers compartment penetration by fence posts, tree branches, animals and rocks.
Vents anti lift aerodynamics, and visors of course are dependent on your use and personal preferences.
Larry
| XT6Wagon | 04-29-2005 12:14 AM |
Hotrod... Doesn't even take something comming in the car to make a full face nice... the steeringwheel is nice and narrow. In toasting my EVO the steeringwheel managed to leave a welt the length of my arm in a decently low speed colision. In a bad off, even with airbags the second time you hit something hard it might just be right to mak you faceplant against the wheel.
| hotrod | 04-29-2005 12:21 AM |
Agree'd --- steering wheels, loose fire extinguishers, co-drivers arm etc. etc.
Larry
Larry
| Butt Dyno | 04-29-2005 01:05 AM |
[url]http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1481&highlight=hans[/url]
Good thread..
Good thread..
| MattSTi | 04-29-2005 02:45 AM |
I definitely agree that full-face is the way to go.
-Matt
-Matt
| Skibum4444 | 04-29-2005 05:03 AM |
What I have found is that typically better helmets, more expensive, hold up better and are more confortable. Theres great helmets out there for $150, just dont get a ebay helmet. Go to the store and pick one out thats comfortable to you. If theres a cheapie thats good buy it. If its more for autoXing who cares. But a neighbor of mine just got out of the hospital from suffering a skull fractor. He was riding his motorcycle when he hit a car and eat s&it without a helmet(he was drunk). Anyway the point is it was a low speed crash but his injuries could have been minimized if he was wearing a helmet, or not been a complete moron and rode drunk. Thats my reasoning.
| Diode663 | 04-29-2005 07:17 AM |
I used to motocross and trail ride. I first had a cheap helmet but then got a 300 dollar helmet. The only difference whas weight, style and the quality of the padding. The weight and the padding were nice for long days but totaly arent worth it for in a car. If you talk to anyone who has ever hit thier head with a helmet they will tell you that the helmet just stops your head from getting split open. A hard enough impact will still ruin your **** no matter how much you pay for a helmet. So why pay more if you dont need to?
| JnJassociates | 04-29-2005 08:00 AM |
There are major differences in helmets even though they may have the same Snell rating...
Most motorcycle helmets carry a M rating... Which is ok for Autocross. Most Motorcycle helmets are good for one impact. That's it...
Things you should consider when shopping for a helmet:
Comfort. How does it fit, are you comfortable with it on your head and are you able to see out of it?
Protection> What type of liner is used? Is it SA rated? It has been recommended by Snell to replace your helmet every 5 years.
Price> There are some excellent quality Snell rated helmets out there...
Do you want an open face or closed? This will also have a bearing on pricing.
For general autocross, an open face helmet will do... Though the debate on which is safer in an airbag equipped car is still being discussed.
We carry Bell/Pyrotect helmets because we feel they offer great value for the price.
Here is an excerpt from their website on helmets:
WHAT TO WEAR AND WHY
HELMETS
Snell rated "SA" (Sports Application) professional helmets provide extreme impact resistance and higher fire protection than Snell "M" (Motorcycle) rated helmets. Closed helmets reduce the possibility of spinal column injuries in head-on collisions. (The "chin protector" will strike the sternum (breastbone) and limit the head's forward movement.) For this reason, BELL & PYROTECT do not recommend open faced helmets and strongly urge you to use a professional contoured (not round or U shaped) neck collar while driving. Proper helmet head rest and seat back re-enforcement is highly recommended.
BELL ULTRA & PRO SA helmets use carbon fiber and Kevlar composites for strength and weight reduction. BELL & PYROTECT lightweight hand lay-up fiberglass SA helmets, are slightly heavier and not recommended for high speed competition. (The lighter the weight the less chance for injury plus reduced fatigue while cornering, allowing increased concentration) The choice of a premium series helmet is mandatory for serious racers. SA helmets generally have smaller eye ports as eyes remain focused straight ahead during competition and large, motorcycle eye ports are a distraction, allowing excess light entry, causing eye strain. Competition cars with windshields may use closed face helmets with shield in the open position in hot weather or to prevent fogging � on impact the shield usually will close to help prevent flying debris or fire entry. All SA helmets have a 1/8 inch thick polycarbonate shield in case of flying debris, provision for tear offs and offer clear, light, or dark tinted visors. (Fog free feature is optional) Iridium Blue shields are recommended for professionals only, as they are quite fragile. If purchased use only with proper cleaning cloth and follow instructions � iridium coating is not waranteed. Clear or tinted permanent FOG CITY inner shield liners are available. BELL horizontal polarized/blue-blocking Drivers sunglasses are recommended for all daytime competition to prevent glare and eye strain. Helmet bags offer shield protection and eliminate odor absorption by the helmet liner from used clothing in equipment bags. To avoid liner odors clean with the suds only from a mixture of warm water and Woolite, using a soft cloth. Occasionally 2-3 drops of chlorine bleach in an 8 oz. glass of hot water may be used to lessen odor.
Ignore the sales pitch for a moment and focus in on the ratings and recommendations.
I hope this makes it easer to choose a helmet. :)
Bryan
Most motorcycle helmets carry a M rating... Which is ok for Autocross. Most Motorcycle helmets are good for one impact. That's it...
Things you should consider when shopping for a helmet:
Comfort. How does it fit, are you comfortable with it on your head and are you able to see out of it?
Protection> What type of liner is used? Is it SA rated? It has been recommended by Snell to replace your helmet every 5 years.
Price> There are some excellent quality Snell rated helmets out there...
Do you want an open face or closed? This will also have a bearing on pricing.
For general autocross, an open face helmet will do... Though the debate on which is safer in an airbag equipped car is still being discussed.
We carry Bell/Pyrotect helmets because we feel they offer great value for the price.
Here is an excerpt from their website on helmets:
WHAT TO WEAR AND WHY
HELMETS
Snell rated "SA" (Sports Application) professional helmets provide extreme impact resistance and higher fire protection than Snell "M" (Motorcycle) rated helmets. Closed helmets reduce the possibility of spinal column injuries in head-on collisions. (The "chin protector" will strike the sternum (breastbone) and limit the head's forward movement.) For this reason, BELL & PYROTECT do not recommend open faced helmets and strongly urge you to use a professional contoured (not round or U shaped) neck collar while driving. Proper helmet head rest and seat back re-enforcement is highly recommended.
BELL ULTRA & PRO SA helmets use carbon fiber and Kevlar composites for strength and weight reduction. BELL & PYROTECT lightweight hand lay-up fiberglass SA helmets, are slightly heavier and not recommended for high speed competition. (The lighter the weight the less chance for injury plus reduced fatigue while cornering, allowing increased concentration) The choice of a premium series helmet is mandatory for serious racers. SA helmets generally have smaller eye ports as eyes remain focused straight ahead during competition and large, motorcycle eye ports are a distraction, allowing excess light entry, causing eye strain. Competition cars with windshields may use closed face helmets with shield in the open position in hot weather or to prevent fogging � on impact the shield usually will close to help prevent flying debris or fire entry. All SA helmets have a 1/8 inch thick polycarbonate shield in case of flying debris, provision for tear offs and offer clear, light, or dark tinted visors. (Fog free feature is optional) Iridium Blue shields are recommended for professionals only, as they are quite fragile. If purchased use only with proper cleaning cloth and follow instructions � iridium coating is not waranteed. Clear or tinted permanent FOG CITY inner shield liners are available. BELL horizontal polarized/blue-blocking Drivers sunglasses are recommended for all daytime competition to prevent glare and eye strain. Helmet bags offer shield protection and eliminate odor absorption by the helmet liner from used clothing in equipment bags. To avoid liner odors clean with the suds only from a mixture of warm water and Woolite, using a soft cloth. Occasionally 2-3 drops of chlorine bleach in an 8 oz. glass of hot water may be used to lessen odor.
Ignore the sales pitch for a moment and focus in on the ratings and recommendations.
I hope this makes it easer to choose a helmet. :)
Bryan
| Surgical22 | 04-29-2005 09:03 AM |
[QUOTE=Diode663] A hard enough impact will still ruin your **** no matter how much you pay for a helmet. So why pay more if you dont need to?[/QUOTE]
Thats my main point.....
I guess people are buying peace of mind, which is fine.
I'm still not convinced I need to spend a ton on a helmet. The main issues that people are bringing up are R&D, materials, and build quality. I say if it fits your head first, then your budget, buy it.
Thats my main point.....
I guess people are buying peace of mind, which is fine.
I'm still not convinced I need to spend a ton on a helmet. The main issues that people are bringing up are R&D, materials, and build quality. I say if it fits your head first, then your budget, buy it.
| asquaredrex | 04-29-2005 09:38 AM |
[QUOTE=Surgical22]Thats my main point.....
I guess people are buying peace of mind, which is fine.
I'm still not convinced I need to spend a ton on a helmet. The main issues that people are bringing up are R&D, materials, and build quality.[/QUOTE]
Correct
I used to have a HJC motorcycle helmet that was the least expensive SNELL2000 rated helmet I could find. It was pretty cheaply constructed. But when I lowsided while riding in the Smokey Mountains, I smaked my head on the pavement real good at 50mph, and I was fine. I guess what I'm getting at is that if you are budget constrained, go for the SNELL rating, not the brand.
[QUOTE=Surgical22]I say if it fits your head first, then your budget, buy it.[/QUOTE]
Incorrect
There are a bunch of cheap helmets that pass only minimal requirements (DOT) and are really just placeholders so you technically conform to the rules. Sort of like treads in DOT-R tires. I wouldn't put one of those on my head if I were you. But, hey, do whatever you want.
Oh, and you need different helmets for cars and bikes. They are designed to handle impacts differently. I have separate helmets for car track days and for riding.
I guess people are buying peace of mind, which is fine.
I'm still not convinced I need to spend a ton on a helmet. The main issues that people are bringing up are R&D, materials, and build quality.[/QUOTE]
Correct
I used to have a HJC motorcycle helmet that was the least expensive SNELL2000 rated helmet I could find. It was pretty cheaply constructed. But when I lowsided while riding in the Smokey Mountains, I smaked my head on the pavement real good at 50mph, and I was fine. I guess what I'm getting at is that if you are budget constrained, go for the SNELL rating, not the brand.
[QUOTE=Surgical22]I say if it fits your head first, then your budget, buy it.[/QUOTE]
Incorrect
There are a bunch of cheap helmets that pass only minimal requirements (DOT) and are really just placeholders so you technically conform to the rules. Sort of like treads in DOT-R tires. I wouldn't put one of those on my head if I were you. But, hey, do whatever you want.
Oh, and you need different helmets for cars and bikes. They are designed to handle impacts differently. I have separate helmets for car track days and for riding.
| turboICE | 04-29-2005 09:50 AM |
Not sure why people post these when they have already made up their mind. Also not sure why I bother then replying to them... :huh:
Anyway-
If you think that all having the same ratings means they all offer the same protection you are kidding yourself. It means they all passed a minimum - there are helmets that exceed this minimum.
Weight is a significant factor in injury avoidance. In any type of accident the last thing you want is extra mass increasing the momentum of your head at the end of your spine. This is especially true when belted in. The heavier your helmet - the less G's it will take to cause a base skull fracture. If your head's mass is greater then the momentum of it pulling off your neck is greater.
Weight is a significant factor in user safety. Beyond comfort - a lighter helmet will fatigue its user less. A less fatigued user is a going to be more alert and responsive to conditions around - potentially avoiding the need to test out that snell rating.
That goes for all the "comfort" items that cost too much - a few degrees in a helmet make a big difference between being alert and being fatigued and mentally slow. Plenty of research showing that heat degrades a user's ability to operate their vehicle.
The nature of risk is yeah the chances are small - but the consequences are big when the chance occurence hits. How prepared do you want to be "just in case"?
Anyway-
If you think that all having the same ratings means they all offer the same protection you are kidding yourself. It means they all passed a minimum - there are helmets that exceed this minimum.
Weight is a significant factor in injury avoidance. In any type of accident the last thing you want is extra mass increasing the momentum of your head at the end of your spine. This is especially true when belted in. The heavier your helmet - the less G's it will take to cause a base skull fracture. If your head's mass is greater then the momentum of it pulling off your neck is greater.
Weight is a significant factor in user safety. Beyond comfort - a lighter helmet will fatigue its user less. A less fatigued user is a going to be more alert and responsive to conditions around - potentially avoiding the need to test out that snell rating.
That goes for all the "comfort" items that cost too much - a few degrees in a helmet make a big difference between being alert and being fatigued and mentally slow. Plenty of research showing that heat degrades a user's ability to operate their vehicle.
The nature of risk is yeah the chances are small - but the consequences are big when the chance occurence hits. How prepared do you want to be "just in case"?
| Surgical22 | 04-29-2005 10:04 AM |
^^^Thats the best argument for an expensive helmet yet....
In all honesty, this helmet will serve as a "place holder" for the drag strip and Auto-X.
You have to wear one at the strip if you run 13.99 or faster. I dont see a 13.99 car being any more dangerous than a 14.99 car at the dragstrip. IMO, everyone that runs should have to wear a helmet.
For auto-x (which I dont do much at all) its pretty much the same...but everyone wears them.
This will mainly be for the motorcycle summer riding, and as "something to make me legal" in the other two events. I'm considering the HJC cl14 which is the 2 or 3rd from the lowest they make.........
In all honesty, you have a much better chance of dying in a regular traffic accident, than at any of the sanctioned events. So why isint anyone preaching to wear a helmet for daily driving? 50k+ people die every year in auto accidents in the US.
In all honesty, this helmet will serve as a "place holder" for the drag strip and Auto-X.
You have to wear one at the strip if you run 13.99 or faster. I dont see a 13.99 car being any more dangerous than a 14.99 car at the dragstrip. IMO, everyone that runs should have to wear a helmet.
For auto-x (which I dont do much at all) its pretty much the same...but everyone wears them.
This will mainly be for the motorcycle summer riding, and as "something to make me legal" in the other two events. I'm considering the HJC cl14 which is the 2 or 3rd from the lowest they make.........
In all honesty, you have a much better chance of dying in a regular traffic accident, than at any of the sanctioned events. So why isint anyone preaching to wear a helmet for daily driving? 50k+ people die every year in auto accidents in the US.
| turboICE | 04-29-2005 10:47 AM |
You couldn't put pop a zit, while dialing your cell phone and drinking your latte with a helmet on.
State governments are not held legally liable for accidents and deaths on public highways. You participate in an event the site and sanctioning body can be held legally liable, they get insurance. Between advising counsel and insurance requirements - helmets are going to be required in competitive motorsport events.
So what is the difference in danger between a 10.99 car and 11.99 car? It has to start somewhere. For that strip it is probably a decision reached by legal counsel and insurance underwriters based on the trap speed reached by most sub 14 cars. I have been to strips that require all entrants including those bracket racing their 21 second tow vehicles to where a helmet.
State governments are not held legally liable for accidents and deaths on public highways. You participate in an event the site and sanctioning body can be held legally liable, they get insurance. Between advising counsel and insurance requirements - helmets are going to be required in competitive motorsport events.
So what is the difference in danger between a 10.99 car and 11.99 car? It has to start somewhere. For that strip it is probably a decision reached by legal counsel and insurance underwriters based on the trap speed reached by most sub 14 cars. I have been to strips that require all entrants including those bracket racing their 21 second tow vehicles to where a helmet.
| Surgical22 | 04-29-2005 10:51 AM |
Well its not who is liable thats the issue, I understand that. Everyone that voted for the expensive helmet is preaching to protect yourself dont chance it and so on, yet we all have 100X more of a chance of dying in a daily driving accident, but dont wear a helmet.....
I understand it has to start [i]somewhere[/i].....which is why I was saying a motorcycle helmet would be fine for the dragstrip, because its more of a liability issue, and a "placeholder" as someone else said to make you legal to run.
I understand it has to start [i]somewhere[/i].....which is why I was saying a motorcycle helmet would be fine for the dragstrip, because its more of a liability issue, and a "placeholder" as someone else said to make you legal to run.
| turboICE | 04-29-2005 03:58 PM |
I think if you lose a tire on the inside and go veering into the competitor next to you at 100mph - you would be interested in more than a placeholder. I have seen it happen in bracket racing in FL.
I don't think your chances of having accident in daily driving where the accident is of type that would result in an helmetless person dying are any kind of meaningful multiple of being in a competition situation. And I say that driving in NJ. I have been hit more times in my race car than I have daily driving.
I don't think the analogy is at all logical or relevant, I think it is more along the lines of it gels with the conclusion you want. On a miles driven basis mortality from daily driving is very low. To my knowledge the DOT does not permit the wearing of helmet while driving on the street. Driving responsibly you shouldn't ever be beyond 6/10ths of cars potential on the street, while competitively you are trying to be right at 10/10ths continuously.
But as I said your mind was made up before you posted. By no means would I say someone is right or wrong in their own choice (unless I know them ;) ) but intelligent people can disagree and on this topic I would disagree with a bargain basement conclusion. I am not saying spend $900 on a helmet - but I do believe that the minimum quality I would look for in a helmet would cost $200 for a motorcycle and $350 for a car. And yeah for AX (<60mph) and drag racing, using the $200 motorcycle helmet is reasonable.
Think of it as an insurance policy, you have it, you hope to never use it and if everything goes right it will last you 5 years at a cost of $0.11 per day. (OK if you charge it to a credit card and take the full 5 years to pay of the charge it will cost you $0.15 per day.)
I don't think your chances of having accident in daily driving where the accident is of type that would result in an helmetless person dying are any kind of meaningful multiple of being in a competition situation. And I say that driving in NJ. I have been hit more times in my race car than I have daily driving.
I don't think the analogy is at all logical or relevant, I think it is more along the lines of it gels with the conclusion you want. On a miles driven basis mortality from daily driving is very low. To my knowledge the DOT does not permit the wearing of helmet while driving on the street. Driving responsibly you shouldn't ever be beyond 6/10ths of cars potential on the street, while competitively you are trying to be right at 10/10ths continuously.
But as I said your mind was made up before you posted. By no means would I say someone is right or wrong in their own choice (unless I know them ;) ) but intelligent people can disagree and on this topic I would disagree with a bargain basement conclusion. I am not saying spend $900 on a helmet - but I do believe that the minimum quality I would look for in a helmet would cost $200 for a motorcycle and $350 for a car. And yeah for AX (<60mph) and drag racing, using the $200 motorcycle helmet is reasonable.
Think of it as an insurance policy, you have it, you hope to never use it and if everything goes right it will last you 5 years at a cost of $0.11 per day. (OK if you charge it to a credit card and take the full 5 years to pay of the charge it will cost you $0.15 per day.)
| Surgical22 | 04-29-2005 04:23 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]
I don't think your chances of having accident in daily driving where the accident is of type that would result in an helmetless person dying are any kind of meaningful multiple of being in a competition situation. And I say that driving in NJ. I have been hit more times in my race car than I have daily driving.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with everything you said except for this. Regardless of the type of accident, who is involved, etc etc the fact remains that a very high percentage of people die in automobile accidents every year (I think I remember reading 1 in 8 people will die in an auto accident)
I would assume, (not even a full face) would decrease the rate in fatalities just like seatbelts and air bags have....
As for me having my mind made up already, sure, I had very good leaning towards a cheaper helmet, only because of ALL the info I had dug up. Only because out of the 3 shops I went to ALL of them recommended a $150-$200 helmet to me. Not one tried to sell me the $500 ones, which I was surprised.
I'm not really one to take big chances, nor am I a daredevil, but we all take a chance at dying each time we wake up and step foot outside of our house. When its your time to go, its your time to go.....cheap helmet, or not.
I don't think your chances of having accident in daily driving where the accident is of type that would result in an helmetless person dying are any kind of meaningful multiple of being in a competition situation. And I say that driving in NJ. I have been hit more times in my race car than I have daily driving.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with everything you said except for this. Regardless of the type of accident, who is involved, etc etc the fact remains that a very high percentage of people die in automobile accidents every year (I think I remember reading 1 in 8 people will die in an auto accident)
I would assume, (not even a full face) would decrease the rate in fatalities just like seatbelts and air bags have....
As for me having my mind made up already, sure, I had very good leaning towards a cheaper helmet, only because of ALL the info I had dug up. Only because out of the 3 shops I went to ALL of them recommended a $150-$200 helmet to me. Not one tried to sell me the $500 ones, which I was surprised.
I'm not really one to take big chances, nor am I a daredevil, but we all take a chance at dying each time we wake up and step foot outside of our house. When its your time to go, its your time to go.....cheap helmet, or not.
| Surgical22 | 04-29-2005 04:26 PM |
I think the voting would have went a LOT different had I went $0-$225 vs $226-$700
Thats my fault..
Thats my fault..
| GarySheehan | 04-29-2005 05:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Surgical22]In all honesty, this helmet will serve as a "place holder" for the drag strip and Auto-X.
You have to wear one at the strip if you run 13.99 or faster. I dont see a 13.99 car being any more dangerous than a 14.99 car at the dragstrip. IMO, everyone that runs should have to wear a helmet.[/QUOTE]
Surgical22,
You've just said that you are buying the helmet to satisfy a regulation rather than for your own safety. Buy the cheapest thing you can find.
I always purchase the bigger brands in safety gear. For my helmet, I pretty much buy the best I can. If I had the cash, I would be wearing the F1 full carbon helmet.
The reason I buy the bigger brands is because they have the resources to develop beyond standardized testing. Bell/Simpson/Arai and other top names have been manufacturing helmets for decades. They have significantly more experience in developing helmets than the less expensive brands. By experience I mean investigating different crash events, learning the effects of the crash on the equipment and incorporating what they've learned into the next generation helmet. New upstarts can build a helmet that passes a set of tests, but without real world experience, who knows how the helmet will perform outside the lab.
I don't skimp on my helmet. I also don't limit my safety gear to the minimum requirements of the regulations. YMMV.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
You have to wear one at the strip if you run 13.99 or faster. I dont see a 13.99 car being any more dangerous than a 14.99 car at the dragstrip. IMO, everyone that runs should have to wear a helmet.[/QUOTE]
Surgical22,
You've just said that you are buying the helmet to satisfy a regulation rather than for your own safety. Buy the cheapest thing you can find.
I always purchase the bigger brands in safety gear. For my helmet, I pretty much buy the best I can. If I had the cash, I would be wearing the F1 full carbon helmet.
The reason I buy the bigger brands is because they have the resources to develop beyond standardized testing. Bell/Simpson/Arai and other top names have been manufacturing helmets for decades. They have significantly more experience in developing helmets than the less expensive brands. By experience I mean investigating different crash events, learning the effects of the crash on the equipment and incorporating what they've learned into the next generation helmet. New upstarts can build a helmet that passes a set of tests, but without real world experience, who knows how the helmet will perform outside the lab.
I don't skimp on my helmet. I also don't limit my safety gear to the minimum requirements of the regulations. YMMV.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| skunk69 | 04-29-2005 05:38 PM |
I have found that the difference between a cheap helmet and a more expensive one are
1) is weight as someone pointed out earlier weight can make a huge difference in a crash and the stress it puts on your neck. Also you will have less fatigue after a wearing it for some time.
2) Padding to keep the Helmet from moving on you is much better then in cheap Helmet. Used to ride my dirt bike a lot and once I put a hole in the helmet with a rock if the padding would have been less thick (and in most cheap helmets it is less) I would have had a hole in my head instead of a headache. This also makes the argument of it �dose not matter is you wear a helmet or not� stupid because you can do a lot to your body before you die compared to what you can do to your head before you die I only had broken rib not a hole in my head.
3) All you people talking about getting used helmets of eBay might a well get a cheap one. You don�t know what happened to them before you got them. Even one good drop can case a hairline fracture in the helmet and make it worthless in an accident.
I would look for fit first then a reputable company and then price.
Also with buying a helmet it should be fairly snug fit because the material gives a little after some time. If you don�t mind looking like an idiot in the store ware it for as long as you dare to and see how much it gives because if you buy one that�s to tight you will hate the helmet and not enjoy what you are doing and that�s the point.
1) is weight as someone pointed out earlier weight can make a huge difference in a crash and the stress it puts on your neck. Also you will have less fatigue after a wearing it for some time.
2) Padding to keep the Helmet from moving on you is much better then in cheap Helmet. Used to ride my dirt bike a lot and once I put a hole in the helmet with a rock if the padding would have been less thick (and in most cheap helmets it is less) I would have had a hole in my head instead of a headache. This also makes the argument of it �dose not matter is you wear a helmet or not� stupid because you can do a lot to your body before you die compared to what you can do to your head before you die I only had broken rib not a hole in my head.
3) All you people talking about getting used helmets of eBay might a well get a cheap one. You don�t know what happened to them before you got them. Even one good drop can case a hairline fracture in the helmet and make it worthless in an accident.
I would look for fit first then a reputable company and then price.
Also with buying a helmet it should be fairly snug fit because the material gives a little after some time. If you don�t mind looking like an idiot in the store ware it for as long as you dare to and see how much it gives because if you buy one that�s to tight you will hate the helmet and not enjoy what you are doing and that�s the point.
| Zoinks | 04-29-2005 05:58 PM |
[QUOTE=Surgical22]Everyone that voted for the expensive helmet is preaching to protect yourself dont chance it and so on, yet we all have 100X more of a chance of dying in a daily driving accident, but dont wear a helmet.....[/QUOTE]
That's a very good point. I can't comment on the cost/safety aspect, but I'll toss in that I got the cheapest helmet I could find (HJC) for exclusive autocross use because I don't see how I could ever end up using it there. I understand they're required, and sure, there's always an outside chance I could hit a lightpole or even somehow collide with another competitor on course, but that's unlikely.
It's staggeringly more likely that I'll get sideswiped off the road and roll the car 5 times just driving the 40 miles or so to the event. But no one is wringing their hands saying I need to worry about my head on the highway. And no one cares enough to be a tool and wear their expensive helmets during daily driving. :)
That said, if I ever took up motorcycles or track events, I'd get the best helmet I could. Unless you've found something to indicate otherwise during your research, I'd expect the better brands to have gone above and beyond the minimum requirements for certification.
That's a very good point. I can't comment on the cost/safety aspect, but I'll toss in that I got the cheapest helmet I could find (HJC) for exclusive autocross use because I don't see how I could ever end up using it there. I understand they're required, and sure, there's always an outside chance I could hit a lightpole or even somehow collide with another competitor on course, but that's unlikely.
It's staggeringly more likely that I'll get sideswiped off the road and roll the car 5 times just driving the 40 miles or so to the event. But no one is wringing their hands saying I need to worry about my head on the highway. And no one cares enough to be a tool and wear their expensive helmets during daily driving. :)
That said, if I ever took up motorcycles or track events, I'd get the best helmet I could. Unless you've found something to indicate otherwise during your research, I'd expect the better brands to have gone above and beyond the minimum requirements for certification.
| Diode663 | 04-29-2005 06:26 PM |
[url]http://www.smf.org/testing.html[/url]
Thats the testing snell does. From what they say it seems motorcyle helmest go though more testing. As for meeting the minimum requirements for snell, anything much above the requirements is peace of mind. Say you loose it on your motorcycle and slam your head into the ground your dome will be protected from penatration and cracking no matter what helmet you have so long as it meets the standards. But what no helmet can protect you from is the fact that your brain has nothing to pad it but fluid. When you slam your head your brain will keep going and slam into your skull and thats where most of the injury comes from. Ive fallen off my dirtbike and hit my head on a rock with my expensive helmet and sure I didnt have to have reconsructive surgery but I did lean over and started throwing up immediately. As long as you are wearing a helmet you are protected against anything that a helmet can protect against.
Thats the testing snell does. From what they say it seems motorcyle helmest go though more testing. As for meeting the minimum requirements for snell, anything much above the requirements is peace of mind. Say you loose it on your motorcycle and slam your head into the ground your dome will be protected from penatration and cracking no matter what helmet you have so long as it meets the standards. But what no helmet can protect you from is the fact that your brain has nothing to pad it but fluid. When you slam your head your brain will keep going and slam into your skull and thats where most of the injury comes from. Ive fallen off my dirtbike and hit my head on a rock with my expensive helmet and sure I didnt have to have reconsructive surgery but I did lean over and started throwing up immediately. As long as you are wearing a helmet you are protected against anything that a helmet can protect against.
| GarySheehan | 04-29-2005 06:39 PM |
[QUOTE=Zoinks]
It's staggeringly more likely that I'll get sideswiped off the road and roll the car 5 times just driving the 40 miles or so to the event.[/QUOTE]
No, it's not. Your car is well within it's limits driving 40mph down the road and if you are paying attention, you can react within the limits of the car. On the track, you are at the limit. There is little room for error. If you think the latter is safer, you're kidding yourself.
I've had several big accidents on the track. I've never had more than a fender bender on the street.
Rationalizing cheap helmets on the track because we don't require helmets on the street is pretty shortsighted.
Ultimately, it's your head. Protect it as you wish.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
It's staggeringly more likely that I'll get sideswiped off the road and roll the car 5 times just driving the 40 miles or so to the event.[/QUOTE]
No, it's not. Your car is well within it's limits driving 40mph down the road and if you are paying attention, you can react within the limits of the car. On the track, you are at the limit. There is little room for error. If you think the latter is safer, you're kidding yourself.
I've had several big accidents on the track. I've never had more than a fender bender on the street.
Rationalizing cheap helmets on the track because we don't require helmets on the street is pretty shortsighted.
Ultimately, it's your head. Protect it as you wish.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Surgical22 | 04-29-2005 07:03 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]No, it's not. Your car is well within it's limits driving 40mph down the road and if you are paying attention, you can react within the limits of the car. On the track, you are at the limit. There is little room for error. If you think the latter is safer, you're kidding yourself.
Rationalizing cheap helmets on the track because we don't require helmets on the street is pretty shortsighted.
[/QUOTE]
Regardless of how much attention you give to the road and its conditions, you still drive by thousands of idiots that are licensed to drive on the same roads. Unfortunately you have no control over them or their actions.
Closed circuit racing, by its very nature is dangerous...sure. But inheriently, so are the roads we drive on EVERY day.
If dont think many people realize how many people are killed EVERY DAY in motor vehicle accidents......Just because you havent seen one, or have never been in one serious...doesent mean they dont exist, because they do.
Your personal experience has no relation to what really goes on.
Here is a link I found after a quick search. The data stops in 1997, but you get the idea. Since then, the numbers have went up.
[url]http://www.disastercenter.com/traffic/Fatality.html[/url]
Rationalizing cheap helmets on the track because we don't require helmets on the street is pretty shortsighted.
[/QUOTE]
Regardless of how much attention you give to the road and its conditions, you still drive by thousands of idiots that are licensed to drive on the same roads. Unfortunately you have no control over them or their actions.
Closed circuit racing, by its very nature is dangerous...sure. But inheriently, so are the roads we drive on EVERY day.
If dont think many people realize how many people are killed EVERY DAY in motor vehicle accidents......Just because you havent seen one, or have never been in one serious...doesent mean they dont exist, because they do.
Your personal experience has no relation to what really goes on.
Here is a link I found after a quick search. The data stops in 1997, but you get the idea. Since then, the numbers have went up.
[url]http://www.disastercenter.com/traffic/Fatality.html[/url]
| Surgical22 | 04-29-2005 07:09 PM |
And how are you going to realistically say hes NOT going to get sideswiped. It's called an ACCIDENT on the road...its called a CRASH on the track.
| GarySheehan | 04-29-2005 07:53 PM |
Surgical,
Do whatever you want to do. Hell, find an organization that doesn't require helmets if that's what you want.
You asked for advice on this forum. The majority of people that have experience and are responding to you are touting the benefits of more expensive helmets. This is obviously not what you wanted to hear since you are arguing that driving in competition is less risky than driving on the street. You are using the fact that helmets are not required on the street to rationalize a cheap helmet for your head, since your safer on the track anyway.
Why ask our advice if you've already made up your mind?! I've got more important $hit to do than argue opinions on safety equipment with a friggin' newb.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Do whatever you want to do. Hell, find an organization that doesn't require helmets if that's what you want.
You asked for advice on this forum. The majority of people that have experience and are responding to you are touting the benefits of more expensive helmets. This is obviously not what you wanted to hear since you are arguing that driving in competition is less risky than driving on the street. You are using the fact that helmets are not required on the street to rationalize a cheap helmet for your head, since your safer on the track anyway.
Why ask our advice if you've already made up your mind?! I've got more important $hit to do than argue opinions on safety equipment with a friggin' newb.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Surgical22 | 04-29-2005 08:01 PM |
I'm not trying to argue, I still havent seen the benifits of a $600+ helmet.
At any rate, I've decided to land somewhere in the middle with this helmet.
[url]http://www.bellracing.com/product/rm2.htm[/url]
I'll just get something different for my bike this year..
I'm not trying to come across strong or anything, but it seems that all the facts lie on the side of the cheap helmet side, and all the speculation lies on the expensive helmet side.
If I raced for a living, or even did it every weekend, I probably would end up spending a lot more on something, but it's just not the case. Hopefully, we all stay safe and dont need the added protection :)
At any rate, I've decided to land somewhere in the middle with this helmet.
[url]http://www.bellracing.com/product/rm2.htm[/url]
I'll just get something different for my bike this year..
I'm not trying to come across strong or anything, but it seems that all the facts lie on the side of the cheap helmet side, and all the speculation lies on the expensive helmet side.
If I raced for a living, or even did it every weekend, I probably would end up spending a lot more on something, but it's just not the case. Hopefully, we all stay safe and dont need the added protection :)
| Zoinks | 04-29-2005 08:40 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]No, it's not. Your car is well within it's limits driving 40mph down the road and if you are paying attention, you can react within the limits of the car. On the track, you are at the limit. There is little room for error. If you think the latter is safer, you're kidding yourself.
I've had several big accidents on the track. I've never had more than a fender bender on the street.
Rationalizing cheap helmets on the track because we don't require helmets on the street is pretty shortsighted.
Ultimately, it's your head. Protect it as you wish.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Gary,
I'm not sure if you were making a distinction, but I just want to put out for the record that my comments re: helmet choice and risk levels were regarding autocross exclusively. I said later in the same post that I'd go w/ better equipment in an actual track situation.
Also, for what it's worth, I'm not talking about 40mph so much as I am doing 75mph on I95, where even if I've been responsible enough to leave stopping distance in front of me, the tractor trailer tailgating me generally hasn't. Etc, etc.
I've had several big accidents on the track. I've never had more than a fender bender on the street.
Rationalizing cheap helmets on the track because we don't require helmets on the street is pretty shortsighted.
Ultimately, it's your head. Protect it as you wish.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Gary,
I'm not sure if you were making a distinction, but I just want to put out for the record that my comments re: helmet choice and risk levels were regarding autocross exclusively. I said later in the same post that I'd go w/ better equipment in an actual track situation.
Also, for what it's worth, I'm not talking about 40mph so much as I am doing 75mph on I95, where even if I've been responsible enough to leave stopping distance in front of me, the tractor trailer tailgating me generally hasn't. Etc, etc.
| fastwrx | 04-29-2005 09:40 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]Surgical,
Do whatever you want to do. Hell, find an organization that doesn't require helmets if that's what you want.
You asked for advice on this forum. The majority of people that have experience and are responding to you are touting the benefits of more expensive helmets. This is obviously not what you wanted to hear since you are arguing that driving in competition is less risky than driving on the street. You are using the fact that helmets are not required on the street to rationalize a cheap helmet for your head, since your safer on the track anyway.
Why ask our advice if you've already made up your mind?! I've got more important $hit to do than argue opinions on safety equipment with a friggin' newb.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Come on, Gary... It's not like you're a professional! What do you know???? ;) ;) :rolleyes:
My wife calls me "Mr. Safety." :) I figure if I can reasonably reduce the chance of injury (or worse) by spending a little extra money, then it's worth it. I wear a full nomex fire suit for HPDEs, even though all they require is a long-sleeved t-shirt. Is it necessary? Is there much chance my STi (or new Elise) will burst into flames? Probably not. But, what IF I did have a fire? How much is my skin worth? Well... for me... I figure it's worth at least the $700 I spent on my suit. I wear nomex shoes and gloves. My helmet is full-faced, and I wear it with the visor DOWN. Overkill?? Yep... probably. But, in the rare event that I crash, I might very well be glad I have all this stuff. And, I'm not even competing! (Yet!) Nowadays I'm starting to think about getting a Hans device. (BTW, I saw your testimonial at the Hans website.)
Mike
Do whatever you want to do. Hell, find an organization that doesn't require helmets if that's what you want.
You asked for advice on this forum. The majority of people that have experience and are responding to you are touting the benefits of more expensive helmets. This is obviously not what you wanted to hear since you are arguing that driving in competition is less risky than driving on the street. You are using the fact that helmets are not required on the street to rationalize a cheap helmet for your head, since your safer on the track anyway.
Why ask our advice if you've already made up your mind?! I've got more important $hit to do than argue opinions on safety equipment with a friggin' newb.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Come on, Gary... It's not like you're a professional! What do you know???? ;) ;) :rolleyes:
My wife calls me "Mr. Safety." :) I figure if I can reasonably reduce the chance of injury (or worse) by spending a little extra money, then it's worth it. I wear a full nomex fire suit for HPDEs, even though all they require is a long-sleeved t-shirt. Is it necessary? Is there much chance my STi (or new Elise) will burst into flames? Probably not. But, what IF I did have a fire? How much is my skin worth? Well... for me... I figure it's worth at least the $700 I spent on my suit. I wear nomex shoes and gloves. My helmet is full-faced, and I wear it with the visor DOWN. Overkill?? Yep... probably. But, in the rare event that I crash, I might very well be glad I have all this stuff. And, I'm not even competing! (Yet!) Nowadays I'm starting to think about getting a Hans device. (BTW, I saw your testimonial at the Hans website.)
Mike
| GarySheehan | 04-30-2005 11:54 AM |
double post
| GarySheehan | 04-30-2005 12:01 PM |
[QUOTE=Zoinks]Also, for what it's worth, I'm not talking about 40mph so much as I am doing 75mph on I95, where even if I've been responsible enough to leave stopping distance in front of me, the tractor trailer tailgating me generally hasn't. Etc, etc.[/QUOTE]
That's what I use my mirrors for. Drive both ends of your car.
The vast majority of my irritation comes from comparing street laws to rules in competitive driving. Are helmets required on the street? No. Should they be if the driving population was REALLY concerned about safety? Yes. Will helmets ever be required on the street? No. For the simple reason that it's far too inconvenient and uncomfortable. It will ruin hairdo's, prevent people from applying make-up, prevent people from eating or talking on the cell phone, ruin the sound of their stereo, etc., etc. Although it would be a HUGE improvement in safety, wearing helmets on the street is just too inconvenient. Is THAT why we shouldn't wear helmets in autocross?
Mandatory use of seatbelts is a recent thing. Prior to that, should we not have used harnesses or seatbelts in autocross because it is safer than the street?
Riding a motorcycle is obviously more dangerous than driving a car on the street. Yet several states still allow you to ride your motorcycle without a helmet. Since driving a car in autocross is safer than driving a car on the street, which is safer than riding a motorcycle on the street, should we allow autocrossers to drive their cars without helmets in those states?
This type of justification is ridiculous to me and should play no role in the discussion of helmet safety for any sanctioned motorsports event. This is what pissed me off. Surgical demanded more info on why more expensive helmets are better, the forum responded honestly, and all of a sudden we're comparing racing to the street! :huh:
[QUOTE=Zoinks]I'm not sure if you were making a distinction, but I just want to put out for the record that my comments re: helmet choice and risk levels were regarding autocross exclusively. I said later in the same post that I'd go w/ better equipment in an actual track situation.[/quote]
Yes, autocross is safer than track driving. I believe that autocross is a relatively safe sport. I might even consider buying an inexpensive helmet if all I did was autocross.
However, serious incidents DO occur in autocross and we see video of it online all the time. Some cars can flip themselves over on their own with the sticky tires they run. Some courses are inherently dangerous. Some cars just break. Some drivers really suck and are on the course at the same time as you. Who knows where their car is going to go? It's rare, but it happens.
But one thing would keep nagging me. Even though the [B]risks[/B] are lower in autocross vs. the track, the [B]stakes[/B] are just as high. $hit happens. It's your head.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
That's what I use my mirrors for. Drive both ends of your car.
The vast majority of my irritation comes from comparing street laws to rules in competitive driving. Are helmets required on the street? No. Should they be if the driving population was REALLY concerned about safety? Yes. Will helmets ever be required on the street? No. For the simple reason that it's far too inconvenient and uncomfortable. It will ruin hairdo's, prevent people from applying make-up, prevent people from eating or talking on the cell phone, ruin the sound of their stereo, etc., etc. Although it would be a HUGE improvement in safety, wearing helmets on the street is just too inconvenient. Is THAT why we shouldn't wear helmets in autocross?
Mandatory use of seatbelts is a recent thing. Prior to that, should we not have used harnesses or seatbelts in autocross because it is safer than the street?
Riding a motorcycle is obviously more dangerous than driving a car on the street. Yet several states still allow you to ride your motorcycle without a helmet. Since driving a car in autocross is safer than driving a car on the street, which is safer than riding a motorcycle on the street, should we allow autocrossers to drive their cars without helmets in those states?
This type of justification is ridiculous to me and should play no role in the discussion of helmet safety for any sanctioned motorsports event. This is what pissed me off. Surgical demanded more info on why more expensive helmets are better, the forum responded honestly, and all of a sudden we're comparing racing to the street! :huh:
[QUOTE=Zoinks]I'm not sure if you were making a distinction, but I just want to put out for the record that my comments re: helmet choice and risk levels were regarding autocross exclusively. I said later in the same post that I'd go w/ better equipment in an actual track situation.[/quote]
Yes, autocross is safer than track driving. I believe that autocross is a relatively safe sport. I might even consider buying an inexpensive helmet if all I did was autocross.
However, serious incidents DO occur in autocross and we see video of it online all the time. Some cars can flip themselves over on their own with the sticky tires they run. Some courses are inherently dangerous. Some cars just break. Some drivers really suck and are on the course at the same time as you. Who knows where their car is going to go? It's rare, but it happens.
But one thing would keep nagging me. Even though the [B]risks[/B] are lower in autocross vs. the track, the [B]stakes[/B] are just as high. $hit happens. It's your head.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Surgical22 | 04-30-2005 12:14 PM |
Gary: I didnt mean to turn the discussioin into a street vs. track argument, and understand why you were irritated.
At any rate, all things aside, whats your personal opinion of the helmet I selected?
[url]http://www.bellracing.com/product/rm2.htm[/url]
At any rate, all things aside, whats your personal opinion of the helmet I selected?
[url]http://www.bellracing.com/product/rm2.htm[/url]
| seattle944t | 04-30-2005 12:20 PM |
[QUOTE=Apex Rex]If you are looking for a motorcycle helmet, make sure that it has the M rating. Where as if it is for track day events, I would get an SA rated helmet.
The M rating is designed to with-stand a single high-impact hit, falling off a motorcycle for instance. On the other hand, the SA rating is for helmets designed to withstand many smaller impacts, head hitting a roll bar, steering wheel, window, bouncing around inside the car.
I have an M rated helmet for riding motorcycles, and I have an SA2000 Bell M2 for Auto-X/HPDE events. I prefer to use equipment for what it was designed to do, and not mix and match. I understand that I can use an M rated helmet for Auto-X and some HPDEs, but I prefer the lighter weight of my SA helmet while driving :)
And, I would go out and try on as many different helmets as you can and see what fits your head the best. I would spend the money on something that I felt comfortable in, no matter if it was the cheapest or most expensive helmet on the market as long as it met the requirements I was buying it for.
Enjoy,
~Apex[/QUOTE]
^What he said - you need two helmets, on for the bike, one for the car. Also the SA rated helmets are fireproof (Nomex) which is more of an issue in a car than a bike. And I would not buy anything but a full face helmet, car or bike.
I have an RF-900 Shoei for my bike, and a Bell M2 for my car.
As many have mentioned, the extra $$ you spend on the helmet gives you better features. I.e. aerodynamics (important on a MC helmet and for open cockpit cars), lighter materials, fit/finish, etc. You do get what you pay for for the most part, and the better features greatly reduce the fatigue factors that are caused by wearing a helmet in the first place. And Fatigue is usually the number one reason people make mistakes when doing high performance driving.
The M rating is designed to with-stand a single high-impact hit, falling off a motorcycle for instance. On the other hand, the SA rating is for helmets designed to withstand many smaller impacts, head hitting a roll bar, steering wheel, window, bouncing around inside the car.
I have an M rated helmet for riding motorcycles, and I have an SA2000 Bell M2 for Auto-X/HPDE events. I prefer to use equipment for what it was designed to do, and not mix and match. I understand that I can use an M rated helmet for Auto-X and some HPDEs, but I prefer the lighter weight of my SA helmet while driving :)
And, I would go out and try on as many different helmets as you can and see what fits your head the best. I would spend the money on something that I felt comfortable in, no matter if it was the cheapest or most expensive helmet on the market as long as it met the requirements I was buying it for.
Enjoy,
~Apex[/QUOTE]
^What he said - you need two helmets, on for the bike, one for the car. Also the SA rated helmets are fireproof (Nomex) which is more of an issue in a car than a bike. And I would not buy anything but a full face helmet, car or bike.
I have an RF-900 Shoei for my bike, and a Bell M2 for my car.
As many have mentioned, the extra $$ you spend on the helmet gives you better features. I.e. aerodynamics (important on a MC helmet and for open cockpit cars), lighter materials, fit/finish, etc. You do get what you pay for for the most part, and the better features greatly reduce the fatigue factors that are caused by wearing a helmet in the first place. And Fatigue is usually the number one reason people make mistakes when doing high performance driving.
| turboICE | 04-30-2005 12:32 PM |
[QUOTE=seattle944t]You do get what you pay for for the most part,[/QUOTE]
Absolutely - it isn't like there is monopolistic or oligopolistic pricing in the helmet market. The market has lots of consumers and lots of suppliers - prices are established in a free market based on supply and demand. On a relative basis there is no such thing as a cheap or expensive helmet - you are getting what you pay for in differentiated features. To suggest otherwise would mean the quite large market for high end helmets is full of uninformed and misled consumers. I hardly think you could say that the average purchaser of high end helmets are uninformed or have been misled.
Absolutely - it isn't like there is monopolistic or oligopolistic pricing in the helmet market. The market has lots of consumers and lots of suppliers - prices are established in a free market based on supply and demand. On a relative basis there is no such thing as a cheap or expensive helmet - you are getting what you pay for in differentiated features. To suggest otherwise would mean the quite large market for high end helmets is full of uninformed and misled consumers. I hardly think you could say that the average purchaser of high end helmets are uninformed or have been misled.
| GarySheehan | 04-30-2005 02:03 PM |
[QUOTE=Surgical22]Gary: I didnt mean to turn the discussioin into a street vs. track argument, and understand why you were irritated.
At any rate, all things aside, whats your personal opinion of the helmet I selected?
[url]http://www.bellracing.com/product/rm2.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
I like Bell helmets a lot. I wear one myself. The only thing I don't like is the large eyeport on the M2. My first helmet was an M3.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
At any rate, all things aside, whats your personal opinion of the helmet I selected?
[url]http://www.bellracing.com/product/rm2.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
I like Bell helmets a lot. I wear one myself. The only thing I don't like is the large eyeport on the M2. My first helmet was an M3.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
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