| Dave_Clark | 12-31-2001 09:14 PM |
New lead driver for Hyundai ProRally team is...
Mark Higgins! We're all doomed! If Libra Racing can keep the Hyundabishi reliable, that is. If so then Subaru and Lovell could be in real trouble...
Hyundai is getting serious!
It's going to be a battle of the British Marks! Get it?:p (This is where Felstead comes in and informs me that Higgins is Welsh or something...:rolleyes: )
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the British National Rally Championship, now held in the "colonies" and sanctioned by the SCCA!:lol:
Hyundai is getting serious!
It's going to be a battle of the British Marks! Get it?:p (This is where Felstead comes in and informs me that Higgins is Welsh or something...:rolleyes: )
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the British National Rally Championship, now held in the "colonies" and sanctioned by the SCCA!:lol:
| Axiochus | 12-31-2001 09:23 PM |
So, is Choinere still with them (can't see JB telling him to go pound sand... that might cause family problems)?
This year could be good... I can't wait until Sno-drift?
Matt.
P.S.- Any word on if Mr. Richard is going to be making any races stateside?
*EDIT*- Never mind... I just checked the web page... Paul is back. Can you give us anything on North America's most exciting driver, though?
This year could be good... I can't wait until Sno-drift?
Matt.
P.S.- Any word on if Mr. Richard is going to be making any races stateside?
*EDIT*- Never mind... I just checked the web page... Paul is back. Can you give us anything on North America's most exciting driver, though?
| johnfelstead | 12-31-2001 10:51 PM |
It's probably my fault too. :lol:
have a look at [url]http://i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94879&highlight=higgins[/url]
I talked with mark in August about him doing Pro-Rally. oops. :lol:
If the car is good, Subaru are toast, this guy is the real deal!!!
I wonder, should Subaru have gone for the fastest guy in Pat Richard after all. I think they should have because mark is going to tear Lovell a new one if the Hyundai is even close to competitive.
And he isnt English, he is a Manxman, brought up on the Isle of man which is part of Great Britain. The place where the world famous TT is held. He now lives in wales, has his own forest that himself, David and his dad run a rally school from.
Think about that, the guy can drive in a genuine welsh forest rally stage whenever he wants, has been able for almost 10 years! We use that ocasionally to test, it's a proper stage. In 2001 he was the oficial works tester for the Focus WRC car and had a full drive (screwed by the F&M epidemic) in the BRC. He was lying 5th overall on the NetworkQ in his first drive of the year before Ford pulled him after Sainz's crash. He would have finished 4th.
Subaru, you have your work cut out now if Hyundai can do a good job of the car.
Happy new year everyone. :D
have a look at [url]http://i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94879&highlight=higgins[/url]
I talked with mark in August about him doing Pro-Rally. oops. :lol:
If the car is good, Subaru are toast, this guy is the real deal!!!
I wonder, should Subaru have gone for the fastest guy in Pat Richard after all. I think they should have because mark is going to tear Lovell a new one if the Hyundai is even close to competitive.
And he isnt English, he is a Manxman, brought up on the Isle of man which is part of Great Britain. The place where the world famous TT is held. He now lives in wales, has his own forest that himself, David and his dad run a rally school from.
Think about that, the guy can drive in a genuine welsh forest rally stage whenever he wants, has been able for almost 10 years! We use that ocasionally to test, it's a proper stage. In 2001 he was the oficial works tester for the Focus WRC car and had a full drive (screwed by the F&M epidemic) in the BRC. He was lying 5th overall on the NetworkQ in his first drive of the year before Ford pulled him after Sainz's crash. He would have finished 4th.
Subaru, you have your work cut out now if Hyundai can do a good job of the car.
Happy new year everyone. :D
| Dave_Clark | 01-01-2002 01:18 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]
And he isnt English, he is a Manxman, [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew you were going to do that!:rolleyes: :p
As far as Pat Richard is concerned he will be running a new Group N car in Canada. We'll be doing as many SCCA rallies as possible in the Open class car, which is currently getting it's engine rebuilt. He'll probably run a couple of U.S. events in Group N and maybe even do a Mexican rally (hint, hint...)
[B]
And he isnt English, he is a Manxman, [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew you were going to do that!:rolleyes: :p
As far as Pat Richard is concerned he will be running a new Group N car in Canada. We'll be doing as many SCCA rallies as possible in the Open class car, which is currently getting it's engine rebuilt. He'll probably run a couple of U.S. events in Group N and maybe even do a Mexican rally (hint, hint...)
| Cigar2 | 01-01-2002 08:01 AM |
Now wonder what's Mistu going to be doing for next year? With this new's they are going to have problem's.
If they are just giving Rhys minimum of money and support. Thing's are getting very intereting!!!!!!
If they are just giving Rhys minimum of money and support. Thing's are getting very intereting!!!!!!
| johnfelstead | 01-01-2002 09:55 AM |
Re: New lead driver for Hyundai ProRally team is...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DMS-USA [/i]
[B](This is where Felstead comes in and informs me that Higgins is Welsh or something...:rolleyes: )
[/B][/QUOTE]
Just to complete my teachings on this bit. ;):lol::D
To be British you can be English, Welsh, Scotish or Northern Irish. (plus be from the surounding islands in british terotorial waters (isle of man) or from one of our remaining colonial dependencies such as Bermuda, Gibraltar, Falkland Islands etc. (yep, we still have some :lol: ))
Isle of man info [url]http://www.isle-of-man.com/index.shtml[/url] :lol:
Mark and Davids Rally school info [url]http://www.forestexperience.enta.net/[/url]
2002 pro-rally is going to be fun to watch. :D
[B](This is where Felstead comes in and informs me that Higgins is Welsh or something...:rolleyes: )
[/B][/QUOTE]
Just to complete my teachings on this bit. ;):lol::D
To be British you can be English, Welsh, Scotish or Northern Irish. (plus be from the surounding islands in british terotorial waters (isle of man) or from one of our remaining colonial dependencies such as Bermuda, Gibraltar, Falkland Islands etc. (yep, we still have some :lol: ))
Isle of man info [url]http://www.isle-of-man.com/index.shtml[/url] :lol:
Mark and Davids Rally school info [url]http://www.forestexperience.enta.net/[/url]
2002 pro-rally is going to be fun to watch. :D
| Subie Gal | 01-01-2002 01:42 PM |
yeah Higgins... this is great news! and not so great...
just one more major manufacturer that's bringing in some bloke from out of the country to come in and dominate our rally series...
why not give a quick guy/gal here... stateside... a ride?
We have some bloody fast drivers... who cant get the good ride...
yeah i'm excited... Mark is awesome to watch....
but i'm :( too.... it's the beginning of the end for the little guy.
guess we'll have to resort to 2 or 3 different rally series here in the states... so us little people have somewhere to go play too.
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
just one more major manufacturer that's bringing in some bloke from out of the country to come in and dominate our rally series...
why not give a quick guy/gal here... stateside... a ride?
We have some bloody fast drivers... who cant get the good ride...
yeah i'm excited... Mark is awesome to watch....
but i'm :( too.... it's the beginning of the end for the little guy.
guess we'll have to resort to 2 or 3 different rally series here in the states... so us little people have somewhere to go play too.
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Shik | 01-01-2002 03:46 PM |
Just to pick the brains of the Pro Rally experts here, do the Hyundai's of Libra Racing still use the Mitsu 4G63 motor as their weapon of choice, and if so why? Buffum was on Speedvision saying they get their motors right from Hyundai in Korea?!? And with Hyundai making progress in the WRC, wouldn't it make sense to use what the 'works" team uses.
If they still use Mitsu's motors and drivetrain, I would assume it is simply because of cost and ease of getting parts. Just seems odd, and very very misleading, to drive a car with Hyundai plastered all over it, star in their TV commercials, yet use a Mitsu motor and drivetrain, especially since I would assume there is a large amount of R&D being carried out by Hyundai themselves for the WRC car.
Any opinions?
If they still use Mitsu's motors and drivetrain, I would assume it is simply because of cost and ease of getting parts. Just seems odd, and very very misleading, to drive a car with Hyundai plastered all over it, star in their TV commercials, yet use a Mitsu motor and drivetrain, especially since I would assume there is a large amount of R&D being carried out by Hyundai themselves for the WRC car.
Any opinions?
| johnfelstead | 01-01-2002 05:11 PM |
In tomorows Motorsport News it says just that the cars are fitted with 4WD and an unrestricted Turbo engine. It's odd the way it's phrased which leads me to say it will be the same again. I dont know for sure.
Acording to MN John Buffum is the other team driver.
Mark is still in negotiations right now for a WRC and a BRC drive and hopes to do all 3 championships.
Acording to MN John Buffum is the other team driver.
Mark is still in negotiations right now for a WRC and a BRC drive and hopes to do all 3 championships.
| Petrie | 01-01-2002 06:10 PM |
I think that bringing better drivers over here, and getting more commitment from manufacturers, will eventually make everyone step up to bigger and better things.
Obviously, it should not be just a money battle. If the governing bodies provide the way to go from grass roots to top class competition we will see Pro Rally flourish.
Obviously, it should not be just a money battle. If the governing bodies provide the way to go from grass roots to top class competition we will see Pro Rally flourish.
| Subie Gal | 01-01-2002 09:26 PM |
well i hope you're right... but i see it more like this...
manufacturers come in...
take over the pro rally....
meaning it will:
cost more to enter... cost more to compete...
limited number of entries...
limited number of pro rally licenses being issued...
FORGET about a privateer ever WINNING again...
and if you arent a class 0-3 driver, forget about competing..
i see pro rally becoming the Brit nat'l / USA rally championship
leaving the little guy nowhere to go but either back to club rally or to quit....
enough of us pro ralliers quit... they wont have a series at all
or will there be enough manufacturer $ to support it???
not sure if it's a good/or bad thing at this point.
just very, very skeptical.
guess we'll have to wait and see.
there's been a lot of chit chat re: this in the past 6 months...
it's exciting to see some top drivers...
but is not necessarily the best thing for our sport.
it could drive away all newbies... be a bit discouraging...
overwhelming, knowing you'll never be able to compete
unless you are owned by a manufacturer...
and then what happens?
yeah... i wonder.
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
manufacturers come in...
take over the pro rally....
meaning it will:
cost more to enter... cost more to compete...
limited number of entries...
limited number of pro rally licenses being issued...
FORGET about a privateer ever WINNING again...
and if you arent a class 0-3 driver, forget about competing..
i see pro rally becoming the Brit nat'l / USA rally championship
leaving the little guy nowhere to go but either back to club rally or to quit....
enough of us pro ralliers quit... they wont have a series at all
or will there be enough manufacturer $ to support it???
not sure if it's a good/or bad thing at this point.
just very, very skeptical.
guess we'll have to wait and see.
there's been a lot of chit chat re: this in the past 6 months...
it's exciting to see some top drivers...
but is not necessarily the best thing for our sport.
it could drive away all newbies... be a bit discouraging...
overwhelming, knowing you'll never be able to compete
unless you are owned by a manufacturer...
and then what happens?
yeah... i wonder.
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Axiochus | 01-01-2002 10:24 PM |
As a fellow soon-to-be club rallyist, I think it may already be too late for us little folks. Let's see a minute:
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subie Gal [/i]
[B]well i hope you're right... but i see it more like this...
manufacturers come in...
take over the pro rally.... [/b][/quote]
Already done. Let's see how well the top privateers do (ie. Seamus) this season compared to the top dogs. I predict that 90% of the top 5's are going to read in the following order:
1. Higgins (pick)
2. Lovell
3. Choinere
4. Rhys
5. Ramana.
...and beyond that, you're going to have to look hard to find results, because the SCCA won't want you to know.
[b][quote]meaning it will:
cost more to enter... cost more to compete...
[/b][/quote]
Already done. You think Club Rallys cost $500 to enter 3 years ago? My car was built by some fine fellows in the mid-80's. When asked, one of them told me not to even bother to try running the National stuff because it was too expensive... and I don't think they've run national level stuff since the mid 90's.
[b][quote]
limited number of entries...
[/b][/quote]
Already done. Can you say STPR?
Related Sidenote... last August, or so, I mentioned (on the specialstage forum) maybe getting into the Club Rallys at LSPR this year. One CenDiv SCCA person told me that could be good because he "thought" that they were going to do club rallys even though Sportscar didn't list them. We'll see what happens this year.
[b][quote]
limited number of pro rally licenses being issued...
[/b][/quote]
It's already in the works.
[b][quote]
FORGET about a privateer ever WINNING again...
and if you arent a class 0-3 driver, forget about competing..
[/b][/quote]
Again, see STPR 2001.
At least some of you folks are lucky enough to have strong regional level programs. If "Pro"Rally starts cutting back on us Seed 6 folks, I'll have only one event (Headwaters) that I can count on going to... and that would be about a 14 hour tow.
I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining... I haven't yet put a lot into the series (other than a whole lot of spectating), so I've got no real right to bitch. I'm just saying that all of the sudden it's not quite as much fun.
Oh, and to get back on topic: Go Choinere!
Matt.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subie Gal [/i]
[B]well i hope you're right... but i see it more like this...
manufacturers come in...
take over the pro rally.... [/b][/quote]
Already done. Let's see how well the top privateers do (ie. Seamus) this season compared to the top dogs. I predict that 90% of the top 5's are going to read in the following order:
1. Higgins (pick)
2. Lovell
3. Choinere
4. Rhys
5. Ramana.
...and beyond that, you're going to have to look hard to find results, because the SCCA won't want you to know.
[b][quote]meaning it will:
cost more to enter... cost more to compete...
[/b][/quote]
Already done. You think Club Rallys cost $500 to enter 3 years ago? My car was built by some fine fellows in the mid-80's. When asked, one of them told me not to even bother to try running the National stuff because it was too expensive... and I don't think they've run national level stuff since the mid 90's.
[b][quote]
limited number of entries...
[/b][/quote]
Already done. Can you say STPR?
Related Sidenote... last August, or so, I mentioned (on the specialstage forum) maybe getting into the Club Rallys at LSPR this year. One CenDiv SCCA person told me that could be good because he "thought" that they were going to do club rallys even though Sportscar didn't list them. We'll see what happens this year.
[b][quote]
limited number of pro rally licenses being issued...
[/b][/quote]
It's already in the works.
[b][quote]
FORGET about a privateer ever WINNING again...
and if you arent a class 0-3 driver, forget about competing..
[/b][/quote]
Again, see STPR 2001.
At least some of you folks are lucky enough to have strong regional level programs. If "Pro"Rally starts cutting back on us Seed 6 folks, I'll have only one event (Headwaters) that I can count on going to... and that would be about a 14 hour tow.
I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining... I haven't yet put a lot into the series (other than a whole lot of spectating), so I've got no real right to bitch. I'm just saying that all of the sudden it's not quite as much fun.
Oh, and to get back on topic: Go Choinere!
Matt.
| jesse370 | 01-02-2002 01:20 AM |
I know what you are talking about with the stpr. A close friend of mine was able to get in one year three years ago in a group5 car and on the third stage stomped all but one open class car. Shame after that a tree stump decided to cut the poor car in two.Last year I think there was like 5 cars waiting until the last second to find out if they could get in. The stpr usually eats half the cars that enter the race. I have been to the stpr for the last four years and I love it. Shame all the drunk rednecks come out the the woods for the spectator points. They allways say they are going to transit the spectator points because of stupid poeple.
And about local people not getting a drive. What about schieble?? Didn't he buy himself that vw and rally it and get a drive from subaru because of how well he did???
And about local people not getting a drive. What about schieble?? Didn't he buy himself that vw and rally it and get a drive from subaru because of how well he did???
| Petrie | 01-02-2002 01:51 AM |
Jamie, you're right that it may end up that only manufacturer sponsored drivers will end up winning outright. That doesn't have to be a bad thing. If the level of competition is greater, and the rewards (in event performance, spectator and TV coverage) are greater, then the [I]lower[/I] order will flourish.
You stand a better chance of getting local sponsorship if you were going to run in a WRC event. Prestige and exposure. You don't go to compete outright. You go to compete in your class and to give back to the sponsors. If there aren't enough sponsors in rally in North America then maybe a very high profile event series will attract them.
I agree that a newbie will not stand a chance of winning. That's motorsport in every shape and form. With strong manufacturer participation I hope we see more opportunity for everyone. We will not get that because the manufacturers want it we will get it if we, and the the organizing bodies, make it so.
I vote we stay sceptical and positive. Rallying in North America should be much bigger and better than it is.
You stand a better chance of getting local sponsorship if you were going to run in a WRC event. Prestige and exposure. You don't go to compete outright. You go to compete in your class and to give back to the sponsors. If there aren't enough sponsors in rally in North America then maybe a very high profile event series will attract them.
I agree that a newbie will not stand a chance of winning. That's motorsport in every shape and form. With strong manufacturer participation I hope we see more opportunity for everyone. We will not get that because the manufacturers want it we will get it if we, and the the organizing bodies, make it so.
I vote we stay sceptical and positive. Rallying in North America should be much bigger and better than it is.
| Subie Gal | 01-02-2002 07:17 AM |
[quote]And about local people not getting a drive. What about schieble?? Didn't he buy himself that vw and rally it and get a drive from subaru because of how well he did???[/quote]
no.. he got the ride because he PAID $00,000 (X-AMOUNT of dollars) to have that ride... it's all about the $$... please visit our discussion on this last week.... he did NOT get a free ride...
[quote]. If the level of competition is greater, and the rewards (in event performance, spectator and TV coverage) are greater, then the lower order will flourish. [/quote]
how will the lower order flourish from this?
you ever [i]watch[/i] SCCA coverage on speedvision?
ever SEE any of the lower orders on there (ok... occasionally)?
but for the most part... what you SEE the people paying out the dough... Hyundai, Subaru, Mitsu... etc...
hell... there were competitors here at the Wild West Pro Rally that won or placed top 3 in their PRO RALLY class who didnt even get so much as a mention on Stupidvision. We won our class and were 5th overall but they showed a [i]very short[/i] clip of us... and focused on the big money names. I dont see how the [b]manufacturers pro rally[/b] benefits the little guy at all.
[quote]You stand a better chance of getting local sponsorship if you were going to run in a WRC event. Prestige and exposure. You don't go to compete outright. You go to compete in your class and to give back to the sponsors. If there aren't enough sponsors in rally in North America then maybe a very high profile event series will attract them. [/quote]
ummm... privateers are NOT ALLOWED to enter the WRC events...
beginning this year.... only manufacturers....
and they will do the same thing here with the Pro Rally.
and it's not just about winning...
and it is very much about sponsorship & what you can do for your sponsors.... on this i agree with you but....
what's the point of entering the pro rally these days if you get NO mention and NO tv time and NO publicity?
wowie... you get to spend more money and get no press! yay!
it all goes to the manufacturers... (see above)
no... i see the Pro Rally becoming the GP A // GP N "WRC of North America" and all other classes being eliminated... they're doing it... bit by bit by...
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
no.. he got the ride because he PAID $00,000 (X-AMOUNT of dollars) to have that ride... it's all about the $$... please visit our discussion on this last week.... he did NOT get a free ride...
[quote]. If the level of competition is greater, and the rewards (in event performance, spectator and TV coverage) are greater, then the lower order will flourish. [/quote]
how will the lower order flourish from this?
you ever [i]watch[/i] SCCA coverage on speedvision?
ever SEE any of the lower orders on there (ok... occasionally)?
but for the most part... what you SEE the people paying out the dough... Hyundai, Subaru, Mitsu... etc...
hell... there were competitors here at the Wild West Pro Rally that won or placed top 3 in their PRO RALLY class who didnt even get so much as a mention on Stupidvision. We won our class and were 5th overall but they showed a [i]very short[/i] clip of us... and focused on the big money names. I dont see how the [b]manufacturers pro rally[/b] benefits the little guy at all.
[quote]You stand a better chance of getting local sponsorship if you were going to run in a WRC event. Prestige and exposure. You don't go to compete outright. You go to compete in your class and to give back to the sponsors. If there aren't enough sponsors in rally in North America then maybe a very high profile event series will attract them. [/quote]
ummm... privateers are NOT ALLOWED to enter the WRC events...
beginning this year.... only manufacturers....
and they will do the same thing here with the Pro Rally.
and it's not just about winning...
and it is very much about sponsorship & what you can do for your sponsors.... on this i agree with you but....
what's the point of entering the pro rally these days if you get NO mention and NO tv time and NO publicity?
wowie... you get to spend more money and get no press! yay!
it all goes to the manufacturers... (see above)
no... i see the Pro Rally becoming the GP A // GP N "WRC of North America" and all other classes being eliminated... they're doing it... bit by bit by...
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| johnfelstead | 01-02-2002 07:37 AM |
This is the way I see things from a completely detached from the USA perspective. I have no personal interest in Pro/Club rally other than wanting to see the series progress and my friends prosper within it.
First of all, keep an open mind on what's happening right now. If you want the sport of rally to prosper in the USA and eventually have some world class USA born drivers then things have to change. Rallying in the USA has been a sleeping giant for too long. The talent is there in the country but the profile and experience at the highest level isn't.
What I suggest you do is look at the history and structure of the sport in the UK. You can learn a huge amount from looking at how other countries' rallying has changed. I see the USA in a similar state to how the UK was back in the mid 70's to late 80's. One other thing to bear in mind is that Special Stage rallying is a relatively young sport. It really only got started in the late 60's in a form we recognise today in Europe and the USA is way behind in it's development as a mainstream sport. Because of the huge push now happening for the sport through WRC coverage in particular the USA is going to explode in the following in the sport far faster than it did in Europe.
If you look at the British Rally Championship in the 70's you will see Roger Clark, Russell Brooks and then nothing but Scandinavians in the works cars. We had Vatanen, Mikola, Arikala etc. etc. Ever since then we have had foreign drivers in works teams competing in the BRC. The likes of Tommi Makinen learned their trade in the UK, not in Finland.
What this has done is forced the British drivers to step up a gear to compete. We now have a huge amount of talent at all levels of the sport here. British drivers are now dominating the sport at every level with Colin McRae, Richard Burns, Alister McRae, Mark and David Higgins at International level, the British championship is full to the rafters with British drivers capable of winning outright. It wasn't always this way, back in the 70's, 80's and even early 90's it was inconceivable that a Brit. would win a single WRC event abroad. Just look at the state of the sport now in the UK.
The change you are seeing happening in the USA is going to be painful for a lot of people but you have to look to the positives of it. Things are changing and you can't stop that. You need to look at what is possible for you to achieve and build a plan around that of getting to the level you wish to reach.
For rally to take off in the eyes of the spectators and potential spectators you need to have a championship fought out by the same names throughout the entire year. It's no good for the sport at the non-enthusiast spectator level to see different names entered depending on where in the country you are. From a TV perspective this is a waste of time. People are interested in people far more than they are the cars, they want to follow someone and give their support to that person yearlong. The only way this can happen practically is to get the big manufacturers involved putting lots of money into the programme to raise the public profile. The downside to this is that these same manufacturers want to win now. The easiest and more guaranteed way of doing this is to do what Ford etc did in the UK in the 70's, bring in foreign drivers with experience. This is just short term and US drivers will benefit long term from this but for the next few years it's going to be painful for the national drivers.
What you will see now is a more distinct separation between those competing in Club rally and those competing in Pro rally. It's inevitable. More people want to rally, there are only so many entries available, and it's only right that the drivers who can complete the entire season in Pro rally should get first option on entries. It takes big money to compete in a season of rallying at a national level. The most successful way of gaining that kind of backing is not to go do the odd event at a high level and do OK, you won't get noticed. The best way is go out and dominate your Club level series. Once you have done that then you have real ammunition to justify the financial risk of backing you at a higher level.
Rallying is one of the most unfair and heartbreaking of sports to compete in. If you don't have money you get nowhere even if you have the talent of a McRae or Burns. You have to go and make people take notice and build over time your support. There are no quick fixes in this sport; it's damn tough to succeed. Most won't make it to the top level and the times of a local winning a Pro rally event are over. You need the equipment and backing to win at this level, the next few years are going to bear this out massively. Some Club level competitors will be able to make the jump and will get the required backing. These people will be determined as hell and yet realistic as to what they can achieve each season. You have to set achievable goals or you look a failure to yourself and your sponsors.
What I would really like to see happen in the USA is for you guys to get a manufacture supported one make series like we have with the Peugeot challenge. This is the best way for the sport to really go mainstream at a financial level that is affordable. Real stars do shine in these series and they help get you noticed. Burns is one of many that started out in this kind of championship. Take a look at his career path, it's the perfect blueprint of how to do it right. [url]http://www.richardburns.com/profile.htm[/url] Even he needed a major backer though and even he started out in his first year at very local club level events in a crappy old car before doing the Peugeot challenge.
The sport is growing massively now; change has to happen to allow this growth to continue. You need to accept that and plan around it or in a few years time you will wonder what the hell hit you. These changes are good for the sport long term, that doesn't mean its good for everyone who competes right now. You can either choose to accept the changes and work with them or you can live in the past and go backwards.
Finally, this could all fall flat on it's face and implode. That is possible. All race and rally series do have cycles of highs and lows. Personally I think overall, in the big scheme of things the trend now in the USA is going to masively positive. Manufacturers will come and go, that's the nature of the beast but long term the sport will get much stronger and a much higher profile. It's up to you to make the best of what is going to be available and exploit the possitives.
These are all my own personal thoughts, it could be complete bollox of course. :D
First of all, keep an open mind on what's happening right now. If you want the sport of rally to prosper in the USA and eventually have some world class USA born drivers then things have to change. Rallying in the USA has been a sleeping giant for too long. The talent is there in the country but the profile and experience at the highest level isn't.
What I suggest you do is look at the history and structure of the sport in the UK. You can learn a huge amount from looking at how other countries' rallying has changed. I see the USA in a similar state to how the UK was back in the mid 70's to late 80's. One other thing to bear in mind is that Special Stage rallying is a relatively young sport. It really only got started in the late 60's in a form we recognise today in Europe and the USA is way behind in it's development as a mainstream sport. Because of the huge push now happening for the sport through WRC coverage in particular the USA is going to explode in the following in the sport far faster than it did in Europe.
If you look at the British Rally Championship in the 70's you will see Roger Clark, Russell Brooks and then nothing but Scandinavians in the works cars. We had Vatanen, Mikola, Arikala etc. etc. Ever since then we have had foreign drivers in works teams competing in the BRC. The likes of Tommi Makinen learned their trade in the UK, not in Finland.
What this has done is forced the British drivers to step up a gear to compete. We now have a huge amount of talent at all levels of the sport here. British drivers are now dominating the sport at every level with Colin McRae, Richard Burns, Alister McRae, Mark and David Higgins at International level, the British championship is full to the rafters with British drivers capable of winning outright. It wasn't always this way, back in the 70's, 80's and even early 90's it was inconceivable that a Brit. would win a single WRC event abroad. Just look at the state of the sport now in the UK.
The change you are seeing happening in the USA is going to be painful for a lot of people but you have to look to the positives of it. Things are changing and you can't stop that. You need to look at what is possible for you to achieve and build a plan around that of getting to the level you wish to reach.
For rally to take off in the eyes of the spectators and potential spectators you need to have a championship fought out by the same names throughout the entire year. It's no good for the sport at the non-enthusiast spectator level to see different names entered depending on where in the country you are. From a TV perspective this is a waste of time. People are interested in people far more than they are the cars, they want to follow someone and give their support to that person yearlong. The only way this can happen practically is to get the big manufacturers involved putting lots of money into the programme to raise the public profile. The downside to this is that these same manufacturers want to win now. The easiest and more guaranteed way of doing this is to do what Ford etc did in the UK in the 70's, bring in foreign drivers with experience. This is just short term and US drivers will benefit long term from this but for the next few years it's going to be painful for the national drivers.
What you will see now is a more distinct separation between those competing in Club rally and those competing in Pro rally. It's inevitable. More people want to rally, there are only so many entries available, and it's only right that the drivers who can complete the entire season in Pro rally should get first option on entries. It takes big money to compete in a season of rallying at a national level. The most successful way of gaining that kind of backing is not to go do the odd event at a high level and do OK, you won't get noticed. The best way is go out and dominate your Club level series. Once you have done that then you have real ammunition to justify the financial risk of backing you at a higher level.
Rallying is one of the most unfair and heartbreaking of sports to compete in. If you don't have money you get nowhere even if you have the talent of a McRae or Burns. You have to go and make people take notice and build over time your support. There are no quick fixes in this sport; it's damn tough to succeed. Most won't make it to the top level and the times of a local winning a Pro rally event are over. You need the equipment and backing to win at this level, the next few years are going to bear this out massively. Some Club level competitors will be able to make the jump and will get the required backing. These people will be determined as hell and yet realistic as to what they can achieve each season. You have to set achievable goals or you look a failure to yourself and your sponsors.
What I would really like to see happen in the USA is for you guys to get a manufacture supported one make series like we have with the Peugeot challenge. This is the best way for the sport to really go mainstream at a financial level that is affordable. Real stars do shine in these series and they help get you noticed. Burns is one of many that started out in this kind of championship. Take a look at his career path, it's the perfect blueprint of how to do it right. [url]http://www.richardburns.com/profile.htm[/url] Even he needed a major backer though and even he started out in his first year at very local club level events in a crappy old car before doing the Peugeot challenge.
The sport is growing massively now; change has to happen to allow this growth to continue. You need to accept that and plan around it or in a few years time you will wonder what the hell hit you. These changes are good for the sport long term, that doesn't mean its good for everyone who competes right now. You can either choose to accept the changes and work with them or you can live in the past and go backwards.
Finally, this could all fall flat on it's face and implode. That is possible. All race and rally series do have cycles of highs and lows. Personally I think overall, in the big scheme of things the trend now in the USA is going to masively positive. Manufacturers will come and go, that's the nature of the beast but long term the sport will get much stronger and a much higher profile. It's up to you to make the best of what is going to be available and exploit the possitives.
These are all my own personal thoughts, it could be complete bollox of course. :D
| PVB | 01-02-2002 12:53 PM |
John, I think your right. The sport of rally in the US is as popular as ever. There has been a lot of bitching lately(by me as well) as we are having to SPEND LOTS OF MONEY to step up due to the outright separation of the classes between the "Pro" rally series and the club rallists. This has forced us to upgrade Nat's relitively stock PGT spec WRX to Group N which is not cheap. But this will allow Nat to show his talents against other drivers in similar cars at the "Pro" level.
The bottom line is the coming year is without a doubt, going to be the most exciting rally season ever in the US. This is going to bring spectators out into the woods that would not have came out to see a crappy VW rabbit(like mine) skidding around. This will grow our sport and hopefully create more crappy skidding rabbits.
Peter
The bottom line is the coming year is without a doubt, going to be the most exciting rally season ever in the US. This is going to bring spectators out into the woods that would not have came out to see a crappy VW rabbit(like mine) skidding around. This will grow our sport and hopefully create more crappy skidding rabbits.
Peter
| Petrie | 01-02-2002 01:28 PM |
Well said John. There's no overnight fix to bring rallying to the popularity other countries enjoy. In time, the tougher competition will improve the local drivers.
| bill harvey | 01-02-2002 02:27 PM |
It all makes sense to me i mean its a profesional level just because you can build a car that fits in the rules doesn't mean you are good enough to drive with the others thats what club rally is for. its like if i was pissed at the nba because i am 5-8 and can't compete now that they brought the 7ft guys in?
| Cigar2 | 01-02-2002 05:02 PM |
Now Add This.....
Dave Higgens is coming over too.:eek: Here's a link. He's running with the team that he ran. Lake Superior and Ramada Express.
Latest Rally News, World Rallying .com
Address:
[url]http://www.worldrallying.com/rn_latest_n2.php[/url]
Has I've said before this year look's like itt's going to be fun.:lol:
Latest Rally News, World Rallying .com
Address:
[url]http://www.worldrallying.com/rn_latest_n2.php[/url]
Has I've said before this year look's like itt's going to be fun.:lol:
| Dave_Clark | 01-02-2002 06:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Petrie [/i]
[B]Jamie, you're right that it may end up that only manufacturer sponsored drivers will end up winning outright. That doesn't have to be a bad thing. If the level of competition is greater, and the rewards (in event performance, spectator and TV coverage) are greater, then the [I]lower[/I] order will flourish.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Peter, what you many others don't realize is that the ultimate "vision" of the person in charge of "Pro"Rally at SCCA is to [I]eliminate[/I] the "lower" order, many of whom are faster drivers that put on a better show than the "higher $$" order. What Spitzner wants to do eventually is restrict entry to only 20 or so manufacturer and big bucks teams for the entire "Pro" series. The average privateer driver will not even be allowed to participate. This is patently absurd! Nowhere else in the world do they do this.
The Manufacturer's Cabal (err, I mean Council) has already hijacked the National rally series. They sit behind closed doors and change the rulebook to benefit themselves. Where do you think the 2 minute spacing for manufacturer entries only came from? This is all done with out general membership input or approval.
The last I checked SCCA was still calling itself a "Club". They don't operate like a club they operate more like the Sports Car [I]Company[/I] of America. Meanwhile all of us "Club" members are still paying our membership dues and license fees (which also went up BTW) which ostensibly goes to pay the salary of the guy that is giving our "Club" series away to the manufacturers and is restricting our participation in it. That's what is making everyone so mad!:mad:
Now before all you newbies pipe in and say, "Well you still have the ClubRally series," let me explain something. Before Spitzner came up with the divisive terms "Pro"Rally and ClubRally it was called National PRORally and Divisional PRORally. Now let's just ignore the misleading SCCA affectation of "PRO" and concentrate on National and Divisional. Pretty self explanatory, huh? That's what it still is. Two levels, one for local events and championships and one for bigger events in a national championship (duh!)
What SCCA is in the process of doing, under the pretenses of "elevating" the sport and making it more "professional", is stealing the National series away from the dues paying privateer. In other words we're supposed to be happy just doing local club events and that's it. Why shouldn't the average privateer be allowed to compete in a National series. There are a lot of drivers that don't aspire to be on a factory team that like to rally at a National level, whether it be at all the events or just a couple. [I]I am against people being denied access to something they ar paying for!![/I] This is supposed to be a club, not a marketing tool for the manufacturers!!:monkey:
I do not have a problem with "elevating" the sport or the manufacturers getting involved or foreign drivers coming in or things turning more "pro". I have a problem with them denying access to people who want to run. If they want to create a more "pro" series then they should start a new series for just the manufacturer teams or else they can just concentrate soley on the manufacturer teams in the TV broadcasts and press releases like they do for the WRC. But there is no reason for them to hijack our National series and prevent the average privateer from participating! This isn't the WRC, these aren't even International events we are talking about. Nowhere else in the world do they have so many restrictions in place and planned for a National series. To get a series to grow you need [I]more[/I] participation, not less.
All this talk of "pro"fessionalism and there's still no prize money? Subaru is cutting back on their contingency program? There is still no series title sponsor?
Everybody start repeating this chant with me:
"IF WE'RE SO "PRO", WHERE'S THE DOUGH!!":p
[B]Jamie, you're right that it may end up that only manufacturer sponsored drivers will end up winning outright. That doesn't have to be a bad thing. If the level of competition is greater, and the rewards (in event performance, spectator and TV coverage) are greater, then the [I]lower[/I] order will flourish.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Peter, what you many others don't realize is that the ultimate "vision" of the person in charge of "Pro"Rally at SCCA is to [I]eliminate[/I] the "lower" order, many of whom are faster drivers that put on a better show than the "higher $$" order. What Spitzner wants to do eventually is restrict entry to only 20 or so manufacturer and big bucks teams for the entire "Pro" series. The average privateer driver will not even be allowed to participate. This is patently absurd! Nowhere else in the world do they do this.
The Manufacturer's Cabal (err, I mean Council) has already hijacked the National rally series. They sit behind closed doors and change the rulebook to benefit themselves. Where do you think the 2 minute spacing for manufacturer entries only came from? This is all done with out general membership input or approval.
The last I checked SCCA was still calling itself a "Club". They don't operate like a club they operate more like the Sports Car [I]Company[/I] of America. Meanwhile all of us "Club" members are still paying our membership dues and license fees (which also went up BTW) which ostensibly goes to pay the salary of the guy that is giving our "Club" series away to the manufacturers and is restricting our participation in it. That's what is making everyone so mad!:mad:
Now before all you newbies pipe in and say, "Well you still have the ClubRally series," let me explain something. Before Spitzner came up with the divisive terms "Pro"Rally and ClubRally it was called National PRORally and Divisional PRORally. Now let's just ignore the misleading SCCA affectation of "PRO" and concentrate on National and Divisional. Pretty self explanatory, huh? That's what it still is. Two levels, one for local events and championships and one for bigger events in a national championship (duh!)
What SCCA is in the process of doing, under the pretenses of "elevating" the sport and making it more "professional", is stealing the National series away from the dues paying privateer. In other words we're supposed to be happy just doing local club events and that's it. Why shouldn't the average privateer be allowed to compete in a National series. There are a lot of drivers that don't aspire to be on a factory team that like to rally at a National level, whether it be at all the events or just a couple. [I]I am against people being denied access to something they ar paying for!![/I] This is supposed to be a club, not a marketing tool for the manufacturers!!:monkey:
I do not have a problem with "elevating" the sport or the manufacturers getting involved or foreign drivers coming in or things turning more "pro". I have a problem with them denying access to people who want to run. If they want to create a more "pro" series then they should start a new series for just the manufacturer teams or else they can just concentrate soley on the manufacturer teams in the TV broadcasts and press releases like they do for the WRC. But there is no reason for them to hijack our National series and prevent the average privateer from participating! This isn't the WRC, these aren't even International events we are talking about. Nowhere else in the world do they have so many restrictions in place and planned for a National series. To get a series to grow you need [I]more[/I] participation, not less.
All this talk of "pro"fessionalism and there's still no prize money? Subaru is cutting back on their contingency program? There is still no series title sponsor?
Everybody start repeating this chant with me:
"IF WE'RE SO "PRO", WHERE'S THE DOUGH!!":p
| bill harvey | 01-02-2002 07:02 PM |
so is higgins running for AV sports or for Libra?
i was just on the phone with a rep from AV sports and didn't ask him boy do i feel dumb now..
i was just on the phone with a rep from AV sports and didn't ask him boy do i feel dumb now..
| johnfelstead | 01-02-2002 07:33 PM |
Dave, there is no prize money in any british championship. Not having prize money doesnt mean the series isnt profesionally run.
We do have contingency money from companies like Dunlop but that is peanuts, you certainly cant run a rally team on that kind of money.
To limit the entry to 20 cars is absurd. I find that very hard to believe. Apart from anything else, how the hell do you run a rally for that many cars, the guys doing the marshalling wont turn out to work an event with that kind of competitor level. If that is the plans then Pro-Rally is doomed.
I dont know much about the history of the SCCA and Pro/club etc rally in the USA but i do know what works to help the sport cater to all levels and all budgets.
In the UK we have very disinct rally series at many levels. It's pretty obvious where you need to gain experience and where you need to compete to get to the top of the sport. If the sport is to prosper amongst the national conciousness then you need an elite series that the real stars run in. This same series and events shouldnt exclude people who have the funding and the equipment though, even if they wont ever be world champ or ever want to be.
As to the way you see the SCCA taking your money and not being a club. Thats just the way it is in the UK. The MSA is there to set the rules for safety/technical etc. and to administer licence levels. They dont actually run any events though (they used to but sold the rights last year to the BRC). That is left to the groups like ABIRO, ANCRO and the BTRDA.
The UK's rally structure is very mature now.
botom of the pile is the regional series such as the ANWCC (association of north west car clubs). These are events run for club competitors in a local UK region. The events make up a local championship. This is where we started out, we won this championship.
You then have more national level championships like the Welsh that take in more high profile rallies. Thats where we went next and we won that too.
You then have the BTRDA which is very high profile but still club competitor based. The cars you see here are ex works WRC. We won the 2 litre class in this and then moved up to the WRC class. Our best result to date here is 5th overall over the season with a 2nd overall on one event. This is about as high a level as we can afford to go with the sponsors we have and the time we have available. Its the most popular series for senior level club competitors with usually 180 cars per event.
Above the BTRDA you have the ANCRO championship (used to be the Mintex). This is where the real big money starts to be spent. 2001 champ was Marcus Dodd and John Bennie, they use a prodrive run Impreza WRC worth $400K and there are plenty of others spending similar amounts.
Above this you have the BRC with the factory teams and privateers that are really pushing to make a career of the sport. The BRC changes its rules every few years. It used to be for open class GroupA cars and Malcolm Wilson won this driving a works Escort run by his own team. This got to the level of spend where few could afford to compete and that is why the series went F2 for a few years with tons of factory teams. F2 has now died a death and for a year the series was open to F2 or GroupN cars. It's now going F1600 for the main championship and WRC cars for a suporting championship as there are now enough WRC cars to warrant that.
What i am trying to show here is that the sport is always going to be changing, nothing stays static as to the rules. The main thing is that people see a stepping stone structure that they can progress through. Thats pretty lacking in the US from what i can see but it does seem that more rigid structures are being put in place.
I find it very hard to believe that they want to limit Pro rallies to such small entries. That makes absolutely no sense. If that is the case then that series wont last long at all.
The sport is growing quickly and needs to be managed through the growing pains. Whether the SCCA is the right group to do this is up for debate it seems. That doesnt mean that the growth wont happen. Changes have to occur to acomodate everyone. That is already happening with this new North American Series being added to the club and pro rally series.
We do have contingency money from companies like Dunlop but that is peanuts, you certainly cant run a rally team on that kind of money.
To limit the entry to 20 cars is absurd. I find that very hard to believe. Apart from anything else, how the hell do you run a rally for that many cars, the guys doing the marshalling wont turn out to work an event with that kind of competitor level. If that is the plans then Pro-Rally is doomed.
I dont know much about the history of the SCCA and Pro/club etc rally in the USA but i do know what works to help the sport cater to all levels and all budgets.
In the UK we have very disinct rally series at many levels. It's pretty obvious where you need to gain experience and where you need to compete to get to the top of the sport. If the sport is to prosper amongst the national conciousness then you need an elite series that the real stars run in. This same series and events shouldnt exclude people who have the funding and the equipment though, even if they wont ever be world champ or ever want to be.
As to the way you see the SCCA taking your money and not being a club. Thats just the way it is in the UK. The MSA is there to set the rules for safety/technical etc. and to administer licence levels. They dont actually run any events though (they used to but sold the rights last year to the BRC). That is left to the groups like ABIRO, ANCRO and the BTRDA.
The UK's rally structure is very mature now.
botom of the pile is the regional series such as the ANWCC (association of north west car clubs). These are events run for club competitors in a local UK region. The events make up a local championship. This is where we started out, we won this championship.
You then have more national level championships like the Welsh that take in more high profile rallies. Thats where we went next and we won that too.
You then have the BTRDA which is very high profile but still club competitor based. The cars you see here are ex works WRC. We won the 2 litre class in this and then moved up to the WRC class. Our best result to date here is 5th overall over the season with a 2nd overall on one event. This is about as high a level as we can afford to go with the sponsors we have and the time we have available. Its the most popular series for senior level club competitors with usually 180 cars per event.
Above the BTRDA you have the ANCRO championship (used to be the Mintex). This is where the real big money starts to be spent. 2001 champ was Marcus Dodd and John Bennie, they use a prodrive run Impreza WRC worth $400K and there are plenty of others spending similar amounts.
Above this you have the BRC with the factory teams and privateers that are really pushing to make a career of the sport. The BRC changes its rules every few years. It used to be for open class GroupA cars and Malcolm Wilson won this driving a works Escort run by his own team. This got to the level of spend where few could afford to compete and that is why the series went F2 for a few years with tons of factory teams. F2 has now died a death and for a year the series was open to F2 or GroupN cars. It's now going F1600 for the main championship and WRC cars for a suporting championship as there are now enough WRC cars to warrant that.
What i am trying to show here is that the sport is always going to be changing, nothing stays static as to the rules. The main thing is that people see a stepping stone structure that they can progress through. Thats pretty lacking in the US from what i can see but it does seem that more rigid structures are being put in place.
I find it very hard to believe that they want to limit Pro rallies to such small entries. That makes absolutely no sense. If that is the case then that series wont last long at all.
The sport is growing quickly and needs to be managed through the growing pains. Whether the SCCA is the right group to do this is up for debate it seems. That doesnt mean that the growth wont happen. Changes have to occur to acomodate everyone. That is already happening with this new North American Series being added to the club and pro rally series.
| johnfelstead | 01-02-2002 07:37 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bill harvey [/i]
[B]so is higgins running for AV sports or for Libra?
i was just on the phone with a rep from AV sports and didn't ask him boy do i feel dumb now.. [/B][/QUOTE]
Both. There are two of them.
Mark (british rally champion and elder brother) is running in the Hyundai.
David (groupN champion and younger brother) is running in the Impreza.
[B]so is higgins running for AV sports or for Libra?
i was just on the phone with a rep from AV sports and didn't ask him boy do i feel dumb now.. [/B][/QUOTE]
Both. There are two of them.
Mark (british rally champion and elder brother) is running in the Hyundai.
David (groupN champion and younger brother) is running in the Impreza.
| PVB | 01-02-2002 10:35 PM |
Dave,
How many drivers raced in the ENTIRE pro rally series this year?
1.Lovell
2.Shible
3.Lagaman
4.Burke
5.Nelson
6.Paterson
7.Rhy's.............well, he was "at" most of the rallies
8.Mad Mike
9.Chavas
10.Peeper
11.Ohtake
12.Lawler
13.Paul C.
14.?
15.?
I know there is more but that's all I can remember off the top of my head. But the point is there are only 20 or so guys that are really in the series from start to finish anyway.
Most of the bitching I hear is by people who just want to run a few Pro Rally events as the "tour" swings by their state. Yeah some of them can beat the "Pros" driving lesser equipment, but most just WANABE "pro rally drivers".
Am I wrong?
Peter
How many drivers raced in the ENTIRE pro rally series this year?
1.Lovell
2.Shible
3.Lagaman
4.Burke
5.Nelson
6.Paterson
7.Rhy's.............well, he was "at" most of the rallies
8.Mad Mike
9.Chavas
10.Peeper
11.Ohtake
12.Lawler
13.Paul C.
14.?
15.?
I know there is more but that's all I can remember off the top of my head. But the point is there are only 20 or so guys that are really in the series from start to finish anyway.
Most of the bitching I hear is by people who just want to run a few Pro Rally events as the "tour" swings by their state. Yeah some of them can beat the "Pros" driving lesser equipment, but most just WANABE "pro rally drivers".
Am I wrong?
Peter
| randy zimmer | 01-02-2002 11:17 PM |
participation numbers
[url]http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/prorally-stats01.html[/url]
4 = 4 ( 2%) Drivers competed in 10 events.
Drivers by Number of Events:
[10 EVENTS](4) HOME EVENTS ENTERED LOCATION CLASS
Mark Lovell (UK) SD CT OT RW ST MF OF WW PF LS [East][West] Open
Seamus Burke (GA) SD CT OT RW ST MF OF WW PF LS [East][West] Open
Karl Scheible (NY) SD CT OT RW ST MF OF WW PF LS [East][West] Group N/Open
Tim Paterson (WA) SD CT OT RW ST MF OF WW PF LS [East][West] Open
4 = 4 ( 2%) Drivers competed in 10 events.
Drivers by Number of Events:
[10 EVENTS](4) HOME EVENTS ENTERED LOCATION CLASS
Mark Lovell (UK) SD CT OT RW ST MF OF WW PF LS [East][West] Open
Seamus Burke (GA) SD CT OT RW ST MF OF WW PF LS [East][West] Open
Karl Scheible (NY) SD CT OT RW ST MF OF WW PF LS [East][West] Group N/Open
Tim Paterson (WA) SD CT OT RW ST MF OF WW PF LS [East][West] Open
| Rally-RS | 01-03-2002 12:43 AM |
Hey DMS Dave, does SCCA catch you here? Is this a good place to hide?
Anyway, do you think the National organizers will accept 20 entries, although 20 WELL HEELED entries to make their way?
If the 20 teams pay $5k entries per car, and fill up the hotels, maybe. But the PSI will be on those [b]volunteer organizers[/b] to run stages on time and faultlessly orchestrate the event. I have seen the inside, and it is how shall we say, interesting how these events come off.
Any chance of a revolt of the less than full time organizers against the hijacking?
Apparently the cost of entry to count mfg points went up this year significantly. Can't see anyone winning a 2wd mfg trophy this year then can we?
Can't wait to get back out and away from this electronic tether.
:alien:
Anyway, do you think the National organizers will accept 20 entries, although 20 WELL HEELED entries to make their way?
If the 20 teams pay $5k entries per car, and fill up the hotels, maybe. But the PSI will be on those [b]volunteer organizers[/b] to run stages on time and faultlessly orchestrate the event. I have seen the inside, and it is how shall we say, interesting how these events come off.
Any chance of a revolt of the less than full time organizers against the hijacking?
Apparently the cost of entry to count mfg points went up this year significantly. Can't see anyone winning a 2wd mfg trophy this year then can we?
Can't wait to get back out and away from this electronic tether.
:alien:
| Thug | 01-03-2002 08:14 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PVB [/i]
[B]Dave,
How many drivers raced in the ENTIRE pro rally series this year?
1.Lovell
2.Shible
3.Lagaman
4.Burke
5.Nelson
6.Paterson
7.Rhy's.............well, he was "at" most of the rallies
8.Mad Mike
9.Chavas
10.Peeper
11.Ohtake
12.Lawler
13.Paul C.
14.?
15.?
I know there is more but that's all I can remember off the top of my head. But the point is there are only 20 or so guys that are really in the series from start to finish anyway.
Most of the bitching I hear is by people who just want to run a few Pro Rally events as the "tour" swings by their state. Yeah some of them can beat the "Pros" driving lesser equipment, but most just WANABE "pro rally drivers".
Am I wrong?
Peter [/B][/QUOTE]
There are a decent amount of guys who IMO are better drivers than the guys you have listed above. But they just dont have the factory backing and/or deep enough pockets to run as competitive a car as the other guys. Also, for the same reasons, they obviously dont have enough money to be traveling all around the country doing every Pro Rally. So why not give them a chance to go head to head against the supposed 'Pros' and spank their asses? Thereby showing who the real 'pro' drivers are.
[B]Dave,
How many drivers raced in the ENTIRE pro rally series this year?
1.Lovell
2.Shible
3.Lagaman
4.Burke
5.Nelson
6.Paterson
7.Rhy's.............well, he was "at" most of the rallies
8.Mad Mike
9.Chavas
10.Peeper
11.Ohtake
12.Lawler
13.Paul C.
14.?
15.?
I know there is more but that's all I can remember off the top of my head. But the point is there are only 20 or so guys that are really in the series from start to finish anyway.
Most of the bitching I hear is by people who just want to run a few Pro Rally events as the "tour" swings by their state. Yeah some of them can beat the "Pros" driving lesser equipment, but most just WANABE "pro rally drivers".
Am I wrong?
Peter [/B][/QUOTE]
There are a decent amount of guys who IMO are better drivers than the guys you have listed above. But they just dont have the factory backing and/or deep enough pockets to run as competitive a car as the other guys. Also, for the same reasons, they obviously dont have enough money to be traveling all around the country doing every Pro Rally. So why not give them a chance to go head to head against the supposed 'Pros' and spank their asses? Thereby showing who the real 'pro' drivers are.
| PVB | 01-03-2002 01:43 PM |
There is nothing wrong with letting a guy like Andrew Havas, Pat Richard, or Nat T-Stow, Paul Eklund, Brian Scott, or a whole list of others take a shot at the "big guy$" but where do you draw the line? Maybe the awnser to this is to make the Clubrally series more attractive and structure a better am national championship? Maybe Kust S. could redeem him self with some effort at the local level? What do you think about this?
I feel that the guys who CAN challenge the top 5 or 10 and WANT to pursue this can make the step up if they have the MOTIVATION. That is want it all comes down to, are you MOTIVATED to show up the top teams even if it requires new equipment and endless sponcer searching and hard work?
Just look at Subie Gal. She is MOTIVATED to rally and is doing everything she can to MAKE IT HAPPEN. She has worked very hard to put together a very nice rally car on a budget.
Even though I did not agree with the changes made to the rules this year, what's done is done. Subaru(and the other manu's) came in and bought the series and taloired it to there marketing needs, that's a fact. Now we all have to decide where we want to be.
Peter
I feel that the guys who CAN challenge the top 5 or 10 and WANT to pursue this can make the step up if they have the MOTIVATION. That is want it all comes down to, are you MOTIVATED to show up the top teams even if it requires new equipment and endless sponcer searching and hard work?
Just look at Subie Gal. She is MOTIVATED to rally and is doing everything she can to MAKE IT HAPPEN. She has worked very hard to put together a very nice rally car on a budget.
Even though I did not agree with the changes made to the rules this year, what's done is done. Subaru(and the other manu's) came in and bought the series and taloired it to there marketing needs, that's a fact. Now we all have to decide where we want to be.
Peter
| johnfelstead | 01-03-2002 02:12 PM |
Thats basically what i am trying to get accross in my posts.
You have to have an elite series to aspire to and to promote to an audience of non-enthusiasts. Alongside that you have to have rally series that competitors want to compete in where they can build experience and enjoy.
You have to have both if you are to suceed in building the sport. It's very important that people doing Club Rally dont feel second class. They have to see that series as worthwhile and if they are motivated then they should be able to use that as a stepping stone to greater things. It has to have a good profile too in order to have any worth in the eyes of potential future sponsors.
Jamie has gone about her rally learning in a smart way. The experience she has built up through driving rallycross then TSD followed by co-driving in Club and Pro rally are invaluable and she has a huge amount of successes to show as a result. It's that kind of logical building of experience and gaining of results that will get you to the top.
I honestly believe that after the 2002 season running her own car she will have made enough of an impact and learned enough to be able to justify a major sponsor getting her in a top spec car. This stage in a drivers development is the hardest and most critical to long term success. By going after class wins in 2002 she is attempting to do something that is achievable with the experience levels she has. You have to have goals that are achievable so you can show successes.
Jamie wont get to the top without financial support though, nobody does unless you are very wealthy. As long as the profile and results continue on a upward trend then i see no reason why the backing wont be achievable. It's damn hard work though and you have to have faith in yourself and make sacrifices. There arent many out there that when it comes to the crunch have the ability or toughness to put in the hard slogg this takes. For those you need strong rally series that they can have fun in. This is what the various championships in the UK are all about, it's got to happen in the USA too for the sport to thrive long term.
Sorry to use you as an example J but your doing it right, people can learn from that.
You have to have an elite series to aspire to and to promote to an audience of non-enthusiasts. Alongside that you have to have rally series that competitors want to compete in where they can build experience and enjoy.
You have to have both if you are to suceed in building the sport. It's very important that people doing Club Rally dont feel second class. They have to see that series as worthwhile and if they are motivated then they should be able to use that as a stepping stone to greater things. It has to have a good profile too in order to have any worth in the eyes of potential future sponsors.
Jamie has gone about her rally learning in a smart way. The experience she has built up through driving rallycross then TSD followed by co-driving in Club and Pro rally are invaluable and she has a huge amount of successes to show as a result. It's that kind of logical building of experience and gaining of results that will get you to the top.
I honestly believe that after the 2002 season running her own car she will have made enough of an impact and learned enough to be able to justify a major sponsor getting her in a top spec car. This stage in a drivers development is the hardest and most critical to long term success. By going after class wins in 2002 she is attempting to do something that is achievable with the experience levels she has. You have to have goals that are achievable so you can show successes.
Jamie wont get to the top without financial support though, nobody does unless you are very wealthy. As long as the profile and results continue on a upward trend then i see no reason why the backing wont be achievable. It's damn hard work though and you have to have faith in yourself and make sacrifices. There arent many out there that when it comes to the crunch have the ability or toughness to put in the hard slogg this takes. For those you need strong rally series that they can have fun in. This is what the various championships in the UK are all about, it's got to happen in the USA too for the sport to thrive long term.
Sorry to use you as an example J but your doing it right, people can learn from that.
| RA | 01-03-2002 02:17 PM |
There's nothing wrong with restricting ProRally to a certain category of people/teams. As John said, it is the evolution of the rally sport here in the USA and getting more mature.
It is actually a good thing for the sport overall that this is happening.
We still have Clubrally and who knows, maybe we can have the equivalent of the Super 1600 series and all teams have to limit their budget so that the smaller guys with less resources can compete better.
It is actually a good thing for the sport overall that this is happening.
We still have Clubrally and who knows, maybe we can have the equivalent of the Super 1600 series and all teams have to limit their budget so that the smaller guys with less resources can compete better.
| Petrie | 01-03-2002 04:39 PM |
The origin of this thread was about top class drivers from abroad coming over to the US. I think that higher calibre competition will improve the whole sport eventually.
New tatics like an elite 20 car rally, I certainly don't agree with. It may be elite by design but it will not replicate what other successful countries are doing.
Not all changes will be good. I'm sceptical that the next year will improve very much (if at all) except for the elite pack. However, over time, rallying in North America has got to change for the better. There's too much potential out there.
New tatics like an elite 20 car rally, I certainly don't agree with. It may be elite by design but it will not replicate what other successful countries are doing.
Not all changes will be good. I'm sceptical that the next year will improve very much (if at all) except for the elite pack. However, over time, rallying in North America has got to change for the better. There's too much potential out there.
| Thug | 01-03-2002 04:46 PM |
Thanx John. Now that you put it that way the new separation of Pro Rally & Club Rally doesnt piss me off so much.
| johnfelstead | 01-03-2002 04:51 PM |
Like i say, i cant see them restricting entries to 20 cars, thats suicide.
| Axiochus | 01-03-2002 07:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]
You have to have an elite series to aspire to and to promote to an audience of non-enthusiasts. Alongside that you have to have rally series that competitors want to compete in where they can build experience and enjoy.
You have to have both if you are to suceed in building the sport. It's very important that people doing Club Rally dont feel second class. They have to see that series as worthwhile and if they are motivated then they should be able to use that as a stepping stone to greater things. It has to have a good profile too in order to have any worth in the eyes of potential future sponsors.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't think anybody disagrees with this. In fact, I think nearly everybody thinks it would be good for American Rally to have a premiere series. The problem is not in the end, but the means.
In essence, we had a series promoted, organized and run by hobbyists. It was a series by hobbyists, for hobbyists. In an effort to create this Premiere series, the SCCA has effectively hi-jacked the hobbyist series, and claimed it for the for-profit manufacturers (who will, if history is any indication, use it, abuse it, and leave it for dead when it is no longer financially viable).
Having said that, the hi-jacking would be tolerable if the SCCA were concerned with creating viable alternatives for the hobbyists who are being squeezed out... but it's not. The SCCA is leaving it up to new organizers to step up and organize new events. In essence, then, many of the hobbyists who have worked several years to build up the series are now being edged out only to start back again from scratch.
It is true that, because of rally's newfound popularity, there are some participants out there with more opportunities now then they previously had. On the other hand, there are a whole bunch of folks out there with less opportunities then they had 3 years ago. In theory, the whole "trickle down" theory SHOULD create more opportunities for the hobbyists out here. The problem is, with the SCCA's implementation of the dream, new outlets aren't popping up as quickly as we'd hope.
That, is my take on it... not that it matters.
Matt.
[B]
You have to have an elite series to aspire to and to promote to an audience of non-enthusiasts. Alongside that you have to have rally series that competitors want to compete in where they can build experience and enjoy.
You have to have both if you are to suceed in building the sport. It's very important that people doing Club Rally dont feel second class. They have to see that series as worthwhile and if they are motivated then they should be able to use that as a stepping stone to greater things. It has to have a good profile too in order to have any worth in the eyes of potential future sponsors.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't think anybody disagrees with this. In fact, I think nearly everybody thinks it would be good for American Rally to have a premiere series. The problem is not in the end, but the means.
In essence, we had a series promoted, organized and run by hobbyists. It was a series by hobbyists, for hobbyists. In an effort to create this Premiere series, the SCCA has effectively hi-jacked the hobbyist series, and claimed it for the for-profit manufacturers (who will, if history is any indication, use it, abuse it, and leave it for dead when it is no longer financially viable).
Having said that, the hi-jacking would be tolerable if the SCCA were concerned with creating viable alternatives for the hobbyists who are being squeezed out... but it's not. The SCCA is leaving it up to new organizers to step up and organize new events. In essence, then, many of the hobbyists who have worked several years to build up the series are now being edged out only to start back again from scratch.
It is true that, because of rally's newfound popularity, there are some participants out there with more opportunities now then they previously had. On the other hand, there are a whole bunch of folks out there with less opportunities then they had 3 years ago. In theory, the whole "trickle down" theory SHOULD create more opportunities for the hobbyists out here. The problem is, with the SCCA's implementation of the dream, new outlets aren't popping up as quickly as we'd hope.
That, is my take on it... not that it matters.
Matt.
| Dave_Clark | 01-03-2002 07:32 PM |
Yes, it's suicide but that's exactly what Spitzner has stated is his ultimate vision of "Pro"Rally. Actually, I have even heard that the figure is 8-10 cars. I hope that is no longer the case, if we are lucky maybe he has changed his mind or figured out that isn't going to work.
But that's my point people seem to be missing. I can't believe how many newbies are in favor of giving away the National series. This is an [I]amateur[/I] series! We pay the membership dues and license fees yet before long we won't be able to participate in our National series. Be happy with ClubRally you say. Well that's fine, ClubRally is great, I've done it for years. But ClubRally is local. There are lot's of amateurs that like to rally on a National level in a National series. Sure, right now we can still do that, but eventually if SCCA gets their way you or I won't even be able to [I]enter[/I] a National event. Already this year if you don't enter at least 5 "Pro"Rally events you won't even earn a single point!
I don't have a problem with SCCA creating an "elite" series. I think that's a good thing to have. I do have a problem with them destroying the one amateur National series we have to do it. They are not creating a new series for the elite manufacturer teams, they are hijacking our amateur National series, supported by the dues paying membership and put on by volunteer organisers and rally workers, and converting into a marketing adjunct for the benefit of a few manufacturer teams that are molding the rules to suit themselves. What I am saying is why can't they start a new series if they want to do that?
If they do try to limit the number of cars to 20 or so in the championship then the organizers will never be able to afford to put on the events (and the workers won't show up for just a handful of cars). If they allow anyone to enter any rally then it's not a big deal. There will still be a "steeping stone" or ladder in place for amateurs to move up through the ranks. If there is nothing between ClubRally and the upper elite manufacturer council teams then "Pro"Rally isn't going to last very long. In fact. I could easily see a new sanctionaing body on the horizon.
Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm not against having a premire series, I think that's important. I'm against destroying our amateur series to accomplish it. And quit bringing up ClubRally, that's local only and not what this is about. SCCA have already made it pretty clear they have no interest in doing anything with ClubRally.
But that's my point people seem to be missing. I can't believe how many newbies are in favor of giving away the National series. This is an [I]amateur[/I] series! We pay the membership dues and license fees yet before long we won't be able to participate in our National series. Be happy with ClubRally you say. Well that's fine, ClubRally is great, I've done it for years. But ClubRally is local. There are lot's of amateurs that like to rally on a National level in a National series. Sure, right now we can still do that, but eventually if SCCA gets their way you or I won't even be able to [I]enter[/I] a National event. Already this year if you don't enter at least 5 "Pro"Rally events you won't even earn a single point!
I don't have a problem with SCCA creating an "elite" series. I think that's a good thing to have. I do have a problem with them destroying the one amateur National series we have to do it. They are not creating a new series for the elite manufacturer teams, they are hijacking our amateur National series, supported by the dues paying membership and put on by volunteer organisers and rally workers, and converting into a marketing adjunct for the benefit of a few manufacturer teams that are molding the rules to suit themselves. What I am saying is why can't they start a new series if they want to do that?
If they do try to limit the number of cars to 20 or so in the championship then the organizers will never be able to afford to put on the events (and the workers won't show up for just a handful of cars). If they allow anyone to enter any rally then it's not a big deal. There will still be a "steeping stone" or ladder in place for amateurs to move up through the ranks. If there is nothing between ClubRally and the upper elite manufacturer council teams then "Pro"Rally isn't going to last very long. In fact. I could easily see a new sanctionaing body on the horizon.
Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm not against having a premire series, I think that's important. I'm against destroying our amateur series to accomplish it. And quit bringing up ClubRally, that's local only and not what this is about. SCCA have already made it pretty clear they have no interest in doing anything with ClubRally.
| Axiochus | 01-03-2002 07:36 PM |
Hmm... looks like you and I were typing at the exact same time, and came up with the same basic conclusion! Don't you Rally a GLH, too? Weird how that works.
| johnfelstead | 01-03-2002 07:54 PM |
This is where i am at a major disadvantage to people like Dave as i dont know anything in detail about the history of the series in the USA. I just know what seems to work elsewhere and the fact things need to be in place to do as you highlighted in my previous post.
The problem, or rather decision i guess, is how do you handle this change. Do you accept there is nothing you can do about it and just try make it work for you or do you do something else, whatever that might be, that you have the ability to do.
Thats where i cant have an opinion because i am not directly affected or could even participate if i wanted to.
The only thing that is always the case when things change is that there are people who gain and people who lose. Now if the Majority are the losers and they feel there is an alternative that can actually achieve something then they are well within their rights to pursue that instead. Thats how series like the BTRDA came about. Groups of competitors and event organisors that came together to cater for a particular nieche market.
From where i am sat (4000 miles away) the changes being made seem to be being implemented very quickly with little consultation. That is the part that is of concern more than anything else and it could be (is) very devisive which i am sure most people dont want to see at all.
I am not sure there is much more i can input into this that is of much use. The SCCA have to be carefull here because they cant run events without the suport of the people on the ground. Thats the same the world over. I hope they arent so race track focused that they dont understand that.
Wish i knew more so i could see the entire picture. I can see where things are heading in the USA and it's on the whole positive. The real task is to manage this change without upsetting everyone and therefor not achieving the goals because of that.
The problem, or rather decision i guess, is how do you handle this change. Do you accept there is nothing you can do about it and just try make it work for you or do you do something else, whatever that might be, that you have the ability to do.
Thats where i cant have an opinion because i am not directly affected or could even participate if i wanted to.
The only thing that is always the case when things change is that there are people who gain and people who lose. Now if the Majority are the losers and they feel there is an alternative that can actually achieve something then they are well within their rights to pursue that instead. Thats how series like the BTRDA came about. Groups of competitors and event organisors that came together to cater for a particular nieche market.
From where i am sat (4000 miles away) the changes being made seem to be being implemented very quickly with little consultation. That is the part that is of concern more than anything else and it could be (is) very devisive which i am sure most people dont want to see at all.
I am not sure there is much more i can input into this that is of much use. The SCCA have to be carefull here because they cant run events without the suport of the people on the ground. Thats the same the world over. I hope they arent so race track focused that they dont understand that.
Wish i knew more so i could see the entire picture. I can see where things are heading in the USA and it's on the whole positive. The real task is to manage this change without upsetting everyone and therefor not achieving the goals because of that.
| johnfelstead | 01-03-2002 07:59 PM |
Damn, this is weird. We are all typing about the same damn ideas at the same time. Spooky. :lol:
Keep it coming because i am learning about what your real issues are. I only have Club Rally and Pro rally naming to work with. ;) Maybe one of the problems is the damn names of the series themselves.
Club Rally doesnt sound so cool as Pro Rally. We dont have Clubmen type names in any of our series either, they all sound cool.
BTRDA = British Trial and Rally Drivers Association, the top rally series in this is the Gold Star Championship for example.
Keep it coming because i am learning about what your real issues are. I only have Club Rally and Pro rally naming to work with. ;) Maybe one of the problems is the damn names of the series themselves.
Club Rally doesnt sound so cool as Pro Rally. We dont have Clubmen type names in any of our series either, they all sound cool.
BTRDA = British Trial and Rally Drivers Association, the top rally series in this is the Gold Star Championship for example.
| Axiochus | 01-03-2002 08:34 PM |
John,
We're not into cool Monnikers over here! It's prettys simple really.
"Pro Rally" is supposed to be the top-dog national series.
Club Rally is supposed to be more of a regional thing. However, until last year, each and every "Pro" rally had Club Rallys run in conjunction with it... AND, a driver could be entered in both the "Pro" and Club rallies at the same time.
Even though it's a more regionally based program, there is also a "Club Rally National Champion". That Champion is not the person who scores the most points at the "Pro" affiliated Club events, but the one who wins at the Club Rally National Run-offs (which, this year, is the 2001 Club Rally Championship, but also a points scoring even for the 2002 season, if I'm not correct... so you could be scoring points for 2 different years!).
Does that clear everything up? Sort of a jumbled up foundation to build a "Pro" series upon, isn't it?
Matt.
P.S.- Don't even get me started on the whole messed up seeding system... where one of the 10 fastest cars on the road can (and, occassional does) run as the 65th car-on-the-road in an 80 car deep field!
P.P.S. I don't mean to sound like a whiner... hell, I haven't even run an event yet. I love the series for the most part, I just don't want to see it ruined.
We're not into cool Monnikers over here! It's prettys simple really.
"Pro Rally" is supposed to be the top-dog national series.
Club Rally is supposed to be more of a regional thing. However, until last year, each and every "Pro" rally had Club Rallys run in conjunction with it... AND, a driver could be entered in both the "Pro" and Club rallies at the same time.
Even though it's a more regionally based program, there is also a "Club Rally National Champion". That Champion is not the person who scores the most points at the "Pro" affiliated Club events, but the one who wins at the Club Rally National Run-offs (which, this year, is the 2001 Club Rally Championship, but also a points scoring even for the 2002 season, if I'm not correct... so you could be scoring points for 2 different years!).
Does that clear everything up? Sort of a jumbled up foundation to build a "Pro" series upon, isn't it?
Matt.
P.S.- Don't even get me started on the whole messed up seeding system... where one of the 10 fastest cars on the road can (and, occassional does) run as the 65th car-on-the-road in an 80 car deep field!
P.P.S. I don't mean to sound like a whiner... hell, I haven't even run an event yet. I love the series for the most part, I just don't want to see it ruined.
| PVB | 01-03-2002 11:40 PM |
"We're not into cool Monnikers over here! It's prettys simple really."
_________________________________________________
What?
This is the U.S.of A., it's all about the names and the marketing.
"Club Rally" sounds way-gay. The number backers look cheezy.
How about:
Amateur Nataional rally championship?
U.S. Amateur Rally Series?
Just don't go over board with something like EXETREME RALLY CHAMPIONSHIP.
_________________________________________________
What?
This is the U.S.of A., it's all about the names and the marketing.
"Club Rally" sounds way-gay. The number backers look cheezy.
How about:
Amateur Nataional rally championship?
U.S. Amateur Rally Series?
Just don't go over board with something like EXETREME RALLY CHAMPIONSHIP.
| bohica | 01-04-2002 10:44 AM |
you could call it the Sportsman Rally Series
| jmullan | 01-04-2002 11:48 AM |
Pikes Peak Manufacturers Invitational ProRally, anyone?
edit: corrected spelling
edit: corrected spelling
| Axiochus | 01-04-2002 12:19 PM |
Jesse, I think that is the single funniest thing I've ever read on this board... especially in the context of this thread.
What other Championship has events that participants can't even get into?
What other Championship has events that participants can't even get into?
| PVB | 01-04-2002 12:29 PM |
what the hell does Bohica mean?
| jmullan | 01-04-2002 12:33 PM |
Bend Over, Here It Comes Again
(I had to search on google)
(this may make it into my daily vocabulary)
(I had to search on google)
(this may make it into my daily vocabulary)
| jmullan | 01-04-2002 12:40 PM |
Just to clarify, for those who aren't in the know, Pikes Peak has been added to the ProRally calendar.
[url]http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/prorally/index.html[/url]
Jun 27-29 Pikes Peak Int'l Hillclimb
Colorado Springs, Colo.
Manuf. Championship & Inv. Event
[url]www.ppihc.com[/url]
I am a fan of blue open class Subaru Imprezas kicking the snot out of the Libra Motorsports Hyundai Tiburon/Santa Fe(s), no matter what the cost.
[url]http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/prorally/index.html[/url]
Jun 27-29 Pikes Peak Int'l Hillclimb
Colorado Springs, Colo.
Manuf. Championship & Inv. Event
[url]www.ppihc.com[/url]
I am a fan of blue open class Subaru Imprezas kicking the snot out of the Libra Motorsports Hyundai Tiburon/Santa Fe(s), no matter what the cost.
| jblaine | 01-04-2002 12:52 PM |
As a newbie (all-around), this is very interesting reading.
We're not about cool names here? Ahahahahaah, that's the funniest thing I've read in awhile. I think even "Amateur" in the name will make people feel slighted and not "cool". If you ask me, "Club" is better than "Junior" or "Amateur", but still not very good.
I can certainly see how it's infuriating and depressing for those who have been allowed to enter both Pro and Club rallys to no longer really have access to the Pro series. The expectation was that it would remain the same, and well...things changed, and those people are pissed. But being pissed doesn't really help anything...so...
Just seems like a different ballgame now and the path to the "elite" series is now "Place very high in your division's club rallys for a few years." Why is that so unappealing? Because it's not "Pro"? I don't really get that part. It almost seems like people consider club rallying a dead end path, but it hasn't even been tried out yet as a path into the now separate Pro series.
If you're confident you're really good, then it should all work out, right? You should have no problem spanking everyone's ass at the ClubRally level for a few years straight, right?
These changes really seem like they'll separate the people who are in it
a) because they simply enjoy it (who will be fine with club rallying and doing local TSDs, rally-xes, and auto-xes until they just end up bored from winning all the time...should take about 20-30 years)
b) are interested in being "a cool pro rally racer" as quickly and effortlessly as possible (these people will drop like flies -- amen)
c) are interested in doing whatever it takes (years, money, piles of wins, etc) to be number 1 because that's their goal
All I'm saying is, if I were to start today with the intention of being number 1, I would have no problem with the current/new setup. Having said that, it's a no-brainer to see why people who started club+pro rallying 5 years ago are peeved.
I'm very interested to see if people like Seamus get picked up in a year or two when things get a little settled down and established.
And for a really annoying and over-simplified comment: Isn't the point to have fun?
Mkay, I'm done being out of line and piping up where I have no place to.
We're not about cool names here? Ahahahahaah, that's the funniest thing I've read in awhile. I think even "Amateur" in the name will make people feel slighted and not "cool". If you ask me, "Club" is better than "Junior" or "Amateur", but still not very good.
I can certainly see how it's infuriating and depressing for those who have been allowed to enter both Pro and Club rallys to no longer really have access to the Pro series. The expectation was that it would remain the same, and well...things changed, and those people are pissed. But being pissed doesn't really help anything...so...
Just seems like a different ballgame now and the path to the "elite" series is now "Place very high in your division's club rallys for a few years." Why is that so unappealing? Because it's not "Pro"? I don't really get that part. It almost seems like people consider club rallying a dead end path, but it hasn't even been tried out yet as a path into the now separate Pro series.
If you're confident you're really good, then it should all work out, right? You should have no problem spanking everyone's ass at the ClubRally level for a few years straight, right?
These changes really seem like they'll separate the people who are in it
a) because they simply enjoy it (who will be fine with club rallying and doing local TSDs, rally-xes, and auto-xes until they just end up bored from winning all the time...should take about 20-30 years)
b) are interested in being "a cool pro rally racer" as quickly and effortlessly as possible (these people will drop like flies -- amen)
c) are interested in doing whatever it takes (years, money, piles of wins, etc) to be number 1 because that's their goal
All I'm saying is, if I were to start today with the intention of being number 1, I would have no problem with the current/new setup. Having said that, it's a no-brainer to see why people who started club+pro rallying 5 years ago are peeved.
I'm very interested to see if people like Seamus get picked up in a year or two when things get a little settled down and established.
And for a really annoying and over-simplified comment: Isn't the point to have fun?
Mkay, I'm done being out of line and piping up where I have no place to.
| TOMMY B | 01-04-2002 01:20 PM |
Axiochus,
I just read your post's and your chat with dave, I think you are right on the money with your statements about the SCCA.
I'm kind of old school my self, I been rallying for about 13 years. I rally for fun only, My stage time's are pretty good for the car that I'm running thanks to dave's DMS ;) But thay are trying to keep people like me out.... I only do 3 to 4 rallys a year in a older car that is going to pushed in to open class in afew years, "Thanks SCCA" I had all ways thought Pro Rally was about good driving not about the age of cars ?? well as we all see, its about money and not much more, I hope some day if its all about money that the works get paid Too.
I hate being a Club-eyyyyy, When my times are competitive with most National teams.
P.S= Dave if you read this, I will see you at the Rally Quebec
RALLY ON ////////////////////////
I just read your post's and your chat with dave, I think you are right on the money with your statements about the SCCA.
I'm kind of old school my self, I been rallying for about 13 years. I rally for fun only, My stage time's are pretty good for the car that I'm running thanks to dave's DMS ;) But thay are trying to keep people like me out.... I only do 3 to 4 rallys a year in a older car that is going to pushed in to open class in afew years, "Thanks SCCA" I had all ways thought Pro Rally was about good driving not about the age of cars ?? well as we all see, its about money and not much more, I hope some day if its all about money that the works get paid Too.
I hate being a Club-eyyyyy, When my times are competitive with most National teams.
P.S= Dave if you read this, I will see you at the Rally Quebec
RALLY ON ////////////////////////
| DCRallyDave | 01-04-2002 02:10 PM |
Further evidence SCCA Denver doesn't care about the ClubRally series.
According to the NEDiv ClubRally steward, "due to a communication problem with Denver, there is currently no money for 2001 NEDiv ClubRally championship trophies of any kind."
Who do you think has the $?
According to the NEDiv ClubRally steward, "due to a communication problem with Denver, there is currently no money for 2001 NEDiv ClubRally championship trophies of any kind."
Who do you think has the $?
| craigk | 01-04-2002 02:11 PM |
Hyundai tech note
I can't remember the engine model #'s, but note that Hyundai originally had Mitsubishi design their engine. The Hyundai block is nearly identical to the Mitsubishi if I remember right. I think there was some assessory placement differences. Over the years I'm sure they've drifted apart a little more, but still basically the same engine.
| Axiochus | 01-04-2002 05:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jblaine [/i]
[B]
Just seems like a different ballgame now and the path to the "elite" series is now "Place very high in your division's club rallys for a few years." Why is that so unappealing? Because it's not "Pro"? I don't really get that part. It almost seems like people consider club rallying a dead end path, but it hasn't even been tried out yet as a path into the now separate Pro series.
If you're confident you're really good, then it should all work out, right? You should have no problem spanking everyone's ass at the ClubRally level for a few years straight, right?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I have to respectfully disagree with you. That's more (relative term) like the way it used to be. With the old set-up, better drivers would finish higher. Go look at the 2000 LSPR results, and search for the name Steve Nowicki... then look at the car he ran. The SCCA's new age limits on cars will make those sorts of things purely historical. Why? I can't seem to figure it out.
This doesn't necessarily apply to our newfound smattering of hand-picked Euros, but I'd put Mark Utecht, Carl Jardevall, or Steve Nowicki up against anybody else in the series. Nobody is exactly throwing money at them have them run the "big time", are they?
I don't know. Maybe, hopefully, I'll be wrong, and Club Rally will be the best way into the new "separate Pro Series". The way I see it, though, that can't happen unless the SCCA actively grooms the Club Rally series to be a feeder series... and it has not cared to do so as of yet.
Matt.
P.S.- Anybody out there know if there is still an opening on the PRB?
[B]
Just seems like a different ballgame now and the path to the "elite" series is now "Place very high in your division's club rallys for a few years." Why is that so unappealing? Because it's not "Pro"? I don't really get that part. It almost seems like people consider club rallying a dead end path, but it hasn't even been tried out yet as a path into the now separate Pro series.
If you're confident you're really good, then it should all work out, right? You should have no problem spanking everyone's ass at the ClubRally level for a few years straight, right?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I have to respectfully disagree with you. That's more (relative term) like the way it used to be. With the old set-up, better drivers would finish higher. Go look at the 2000 LSPR results, and search for the name Steve Nowicki... then look at the car he ran. The SCCA's new age limits on cars will make those sorts of things purely historical. Why? I can't seem to figure it out.
This doesn't necessarily apply to our newfound smattering of hand-picked Euros, but I'd put Mark Utecht, Carl Jardevall, or Steve Nowicki up against anybody else in the series. Nobody is exactly throwing money at them have them run the "big time", are they?
I don't know. Maybe, hopefully, I'll be wrong, and Club Rally will be the best way into the new "separate Pro Series". The way I see it, though, that can't happen unless the SCCA actively grooms the Club Rally series to be a feeder series... and it has not cared to do so as of yet.
Matt.
P.S.- Anybody out there know if there is still an opening on the PRB?
| Rally-RS | 01-04-2002 07:14 PM |
Axiochus said
...Go look at the 2000 LSPR results, and search for the name Steve Nowicki... then look at the car he ran...
Hey, I know that guy! ;) :D ;)
And again, he said
...P.S.- Don't even get me started on the whole messed up seeding system... where one of the 10 fastest cars on the road can (and, occassional does) run as the 65th car-on-the-road in an 80 car deep field! .....
Most events reseed overall after the first leg, right??? Theoretically, a guy could still start 85th and reseed up front, but, that would require a very long service, or overnight halt, because that fast dude would be at least 85 minutes behind the lead cars. His service time would be virtually nil!!!!!
But, the rulebook has been [b]REVISED[/b] to allow a steward or rally manager to make up the rules as they go along now.
...Go look at the 2000 LSPR results, and search for the name Steve Nowicki... then look at the car he ran...
Hey, I know that guy! ;) :D ;)
And again, he said
...P.S.- Don't even get me started on the whole messed up seeding system... where one of the 10 fastest cars on the road can (and, occassional does) run as the 65th car-on-the-road in an 80 car deep field! .....
Most events reseed overall after the first leg, right??? Theoretically, a guy could still start 85th and reseed up front, but, that would require a very long service, or overnight halt, because that fast dude would be at least 85 minutes behind the lead cars. His service time would be virtually nil!!!!!
But, the rulebook has been [b]REVISED[/b] to allow a steward or rally manager to make up the rules as they go along now.
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