| Suba_Roo | 11-12-2002 02:33 PM |
That makes sense.
When I saw that first mistake by Hutto, I thought you were past him. I just thought that by planning on running second to Hutto (ignoring the WC BMW) that it may have forced an even bigger error (like an off) and that you may have had more car later in the race.
Now that I think about it the real risk with my "race for second" strategy is that the WC BMW lets Hutto pass for first and knocks you into third. Its sad that thing like this come into auto racing these days
Nevertheless always fun to see Subies going fast. Keep the films coming and hope to see you win at Sears Point.
Makes me wonder when I'm going to see [url]www.subarufilms.com[/url] commercials back to back with BMWfilms....
When I saw that first mistake by Hutto, I thought you were past him. I just thought that by planning on running second to Hutto (ignoring the WC BMW) that it may have forced an even bigger error (like an off) and that you may have had more car later in the race.
Now that I think about it the real risk with my "race for second" strategy is that the WC BMW lets Hutto pass for first and knocks you into third. Its sad that thing like this come into auto racing these days
Nevertheless always fun to see Subies going fast. Keep the films coming and hope to see you win at Sears Point.
Makes me wonder when I'm going to see [url]www.subarufilms.com[/url] commercials back to back with BMWfilms....
| Kostamojen | 11-13-2002 03:18 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Zahnster [/i]
[B]
Show up [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255148&perpage=50&pagenumber=1]Thursday night[/URL] and I can bring you a CD-R of it.
Edit: How many laps was that? Felt like 3 or 4 maybe. Not sure what kind of noise to listen for so didn't notice anything mysef.
Dan [/B][/QUOTE]
LOL! Thats what, 400 miles from here? :lol:
Ehem, anyway, thanks for the offer :p
[B]
Show up [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255148&perpage=50&pagenumber=1]Thursday night[/URL] and I can bring you a CD-R of it.
Edit: How many laps was that? Felt like 3 or 4 maybe. Not sure what kind of noise to listen for so didn't notice anything mysef.
Dan [/B][/QUOTE]
LOL! Thats what, 400 miles from here? :lol:
Ehem, anyway, thanks for the offer :p
| Zahnster | 11-13-2002 12:07 PM |
Forgot where roseville was. Thought it was closer. :-)
| JSofro | 11-19-2002 07:06 PM |
Joel, Joel, Joel.........I haven't heard that much crying since my sister had her baby last year!!! C'mon, you're better than that!!
You and Gary put forth a great effort with your Subaru and I am the first to acknowledge that. But this post has some serious allegations and misinformation in it that I feel compelled to respond to.
Let me try and do this point by point....
1) "James set one of the fastest race laps at the Laguna Seca WC race in the car he is racing this weekend...." Joel, I didn't even race that car at Laguna. I was in the red 325is!!! Which race were you watching!
2) We were allowed to run the Hoosier tires when Ali gave me a 250lb weight penalty and a 50mm restrictor, that's how that happended. This motor has M3 cams but stock pistons, rods, crank my friend...still about 50-75 less hp than your WRX!
3) The reason I was running 1:35's in practice was because we had an electrical problem that was forcing the car to cut out at 6000rpms... But in the rain practice (where HP doesn't matter but AWD helps) I ran the same laptimes as Gary S. in the Sub!
4) "Custom rear crossmember..." That's called a diff cooler which helps prevent the sensors from melting. And the diff is stock BMW!! Joel, where do you get your facts...National Enquirer??
5) "100 yards of cage..." Sure....that car would weigh about 4000lbs.!
6) "Our best bet is that this car cost close to $70K-$100K to build, not including the chassis.." Ok, well if you want to win then I will sell it to you for the special price of $28,900.00, WHAT A BARGAIN!
7) Regarding qualifying......there were and still are some big misunderstandings.......I was supposed to be in my car.
8) "Sofronas moves from 10th to 2nd in a half a lap." Well let's see, Fabryce and Jeff get taken out and the 4 other cars check up in the incident and I had a clean run through....Plus, I went into 4th place not 2nd on the first lap. I then got by Lang and worked my way up.
9) "Sofronas stays outside the draft and crosses over the track...." Well I think I was the only one who could go flat out in the long sweeper, Sheehan sure couldn't!!! And how can you see this from the pits Joel??
10) "Sofronas rolls into the throttle and passes Sheehan 10-20mph faster..." Actually Joel, I passed the Sub into turn one by outbraking him!!! Check out the incar video from Gary at the 12:30 mark! Then watch the remainder of the lap and watch how the Sub pulls up my butt on the back straight but when we get to the sweeper, Sheehan lifts and I don't, that's worth .3 seconds right there......c'mon Joel, video doesn't lie!!! Then Sheeham misses a couple of more apexes and then gets passed by Hutto....
In fact, it looks like the BMW handles better and the Subaru has the HP!!
11) "Sofronas adds about 200ft on Hutto..." Well let's see, Hutto had some misshift problems and I was hooked up in the sweeper.....My laptimes, when I wasn't in traffic, were all within .4 seconds of each other....it's called consistency! :-)
Bottomline.....Gary is part of our GMG team. He bought that car from me which I ran last year in this series.....you remember that rear bumper don't cha?? I told him I would support him in anyway possible when he bought the car. It turned out that I was available to help him out in the race. Nothing was done that Dave and Ali (Series Directors) weren't aware of. They knew what the cars were and put weight on us accordingly. Look at the laptimes, we were all within .3-.4 seconds per lap. I told Ali everything before I came to the track and wanted to play fair. If he didn't ok the setup then I would have accomodated him. Adding 250lbs. and running a small restrictor made a huge impact on the car.
So don't be afraid of a little competition, that's what makes racing so much fun. I mean c'mon, I don't need a World Challenge car to beat you guys.....look at last year, I beat you guys 5 out of 7 races in Huttos car and one race I didn't even start.... :-)
DOOOOHHHH! I am gonna hear it for that one!
James Sofronas
You and Gary put forth a great effort with your Subaru and I am the first to acknowledge that. But this post has some serious allegations and misinformation in it that I feel compelled to respond to.
Let me try and do this point by point....
1) "James set one of the fastest race laps at the Laguna Seca WC race in the car he is racing this weekend...." Joel, I didn't even race that car at Laguna. I was in the red 325is!!! Which race were you watching!
2) We were allowed to run the Hoosier tires when Ali gave me a 250lb weight penalty and a 50mm restrictor, that's how that happended. This motor has M3 cams but stock pistons, rods, crank my friend...still about 50-75 less hp than your WRX!
3) The reason I was running 1:35's in practice was because we had an electrical problem that was forcing the car to cut out at 6000rpms... But in the rain practice (where HP doesn't matter but AWD helps) I ran the same laptimes as Gary S. in the Sub!
4) "Custom rear crossmember..." That's called a diff cooler which helps prevent the sensors from melting. And the diff is stock BMW!! Joel, where do you get your facts...National Enquirer??
5) "100 yards of cage..." Sure....that car would weigh about 4000lbs.!
6) "Our best bet is that this car cost close to $70K-$100K to build, not including the chassis.." Ok, well if you want to win then I will sell it to you for the special price of $28,900.00, WHAT A BARGAIN!
7) Regarding qualifying......there were and still are some big misunderstandings.......I was supposed to be in my car.
8) "Sofronas moves from 10th to 2nd in a half a lap." Well let's see, Fabryce and Jeff get taken out and the 4 other cars check up in the incident and I had a clean run through....Plus, I went into 4th place not 2nd on the first lap. I then got by Lang and worked my way up.
9) "Sofronas stays outside the draft and crosses over the track...." Well I think I was the only one who could go flat out in the long sweeper, Sheehan sure couldn't!!! And how can you see this from the pits Joel??
10) "Sofronas rolls into the throttle and passes Sheehan 10-20mph faster..." Actually Joel, I passed the Sub into turn one by outbraking him!!! Check out the incar video from Gary at the 12:30 mark! Then watch the remainder of the lap and watch how the Sub pulls up my butt on the back straight but when we get to the sweeper, Sheehan lifts and I don't, that's worth .3 seconds right there......c'mon Joel, video doesn't lie!!! Then Sheeham misses a couple of more apexes and then gets passed by Hutto....
In fact, it looks like the BMW handles better and the Subaru has the HP!!
11) "Sofronas adds about 200ft on Hutto..." Well let's see, Hutto had some misshift problems and I was hooked up in the sweeper.....My laptimes, when I wasn't in traffic, were all within .4 seconds of each other....it's called consistency! :-)
Bottomline.....Gary is part of our GMG team. He bought that car from me which I ran last year in this series.....you remember that rear bumper don't cha?? I told him I would support him in anyway possible when he bought the car. It turned out that I was available to help him out in the race. Nothing was done that Dave and Ali (Series Directors) weren't aware of. They knew what the cars were and put weight on us accordingly. Look at the laptimes, we were all within .3-.4 seconds per lap. I told Ali everything before I came to the track and wanted to play fair. If he didn't ok the setup then I would have accomodated him. Adding 250lbs. and running a small restrictor made a huge impact on the car.
So don't be afraid of a little competition, that's what makes racing so much fun. I mean c'mon, I don't need a World Challenge car to beat you guys.....look at last year, I beat you guys 5 out of 7 races in Huttos car and one race I didn't even start.... :-)
DOOOOHHHH! I am gonna hear it for that one!
James Sofronas
| Rick Hunter | 11-19-2002 08:37 PM |
First of all, this has to be one of the most interesting and enlightening racing threads ever! Keep it coming :)
Now that James has posted his side of the story, and that I've watched the race again, I gotta agree with James.. Joel, ya did stretch some of the facts a tad :)
In any case, it sure seemed to be a heck of an entertaining race!
Now that James has posted his side of the story, and that I've watched the race again, I gotta agree with James.. Joel, ya did stretch some of the facts a tad :)
In any case, it sure seemed to be a heck of an entertaining race!
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 11-19-2002 10:05 PM |
Hello,
Hold on one second, everyone... I need to get used to this feeling. It's weird having a new one ripped for ya! Thanks James. Ouch! :alien:
Please, take this in good fun, I'm having a little fun.
[quote]C'mon, you're better than that!![/quote]
Okay, okay, I'll try...
[quote]You and Gary put forth a great effort with your Subaru and I am the first to acknowledge that.[/quote]
Why, thank you. You did an even better job than we did, last year! Actually, the one thing Gary and I can't get over from watching that video is how nicely your (and Hutto's) cars work. If anyone ever wants an explanation of the perfect slip angle, send them to look at your cars through the sweeper at the back of the track. We cried at how beautiful that was.
[quote]Joel, I didn't even race that car at Laguna. I was in the red 325is!!! Which race were you watching![/quote]
True, true, it was Hutto who set 10th fastest lap, I believe. I made a mistake and only figured that out after looking up all the times, recently. Sorry.
[quote]2) We were allowed to run the Hoosier tires when Ali gave me a 250lb weight penalty and a 50mm restrictor, that's how that happended. This motor has M3 cams but stock pistons, rods, crank my friend...still about 50-75 less hp than your WRX![/quote]
Well, not to pick on a small point or anything... According to [url=http://www.turnermotorsport.com/]Turner Motorsport[/url], an E36 325, without tuning, gains about 25 hp and 25 ft-lbs from M3 cams. I would expect similar results for the 328. 190+25=215 as a starting point, to our 227. After that, both cars can add the same types of mods, but you're starting from only 10 hp behind us. How'd your weight compare to 3320 pounds?
Oh yeah, and are you running a stock intake manifold? Stock MAF? Etc? These are all available for BMWs but not for WRXs. So I'd guess that 50-75 hp is more likely 0'ish? Maybe more, maybe less? C'mon James, we saw you walk on us... and we saw you walk on Hutto through the second half of the last lap, right up until the amazing recovery Gary H made - making up hundreds of feet in the last 200 feet of the race! ;)
[quote]But in the rain practice (where HP doesn't matter but AWD helps) I ran the same laptimes as Gary S. in the Sub![/quote]
Hey James, thanks! You helped prove my point - once we put your car at a severe disadvantage, it was ONLY as fast as our car :D I have to bow down to that wonderful car!
[quote]Joel, where do you get your facts...National Enquirer??[/quote]
I ain't no teutonic eck-spurt! Leave me alone! Err, that cooler looked more substantial than our stock rear crossmember. I gotta stop hypothesysing...
[quote]5) "100 yards of cage..." Sure....that car would weigh about 4000lbs.![/quote]
Hey! Then it would have been a closer match :)
[quote]7) Regarding qualifying......there were and still are some big misunderstandings.......I was supposed to be in my car.[/quote]
Hee hee... say what?
[quote]And how can you see this from the pits Joel??[/quote]
Dude, what's your crew chief doing during races? If I can't see, I gotsa move. Actually, right after the back sweeper is where I lost sight of y'all... and right before it, I couldn't see your lines because the track dipped too low. But the rest of the track, I made sure to see. That's my job.
[quote]I passed the Sub into turn one by outbraking him!!![/quote]
We just looked at some datalogs from a test session - we brake at 1.4 Gs and our cornering spikes to 1.6 Gs, with steady state at 1.4 Gs. Considering we make up good distance on Hutto in the braking zones (and that's where we passed him to take Vegas I from him), I once again have to bow down to the great car you have. Your car ain't too shabby!
[quote]how the Sub pulls up my butt on the back straight[/quote]
Aww, man, when you set me up like this, how can I refuse to lob the softball? I mean, it's too easy! James, that's the beauty of AWD - all the sand falling from the bags in your car didn't reduce our wonderful grip too much! :eek:
[quote]In fact, it looks like the BMW handles better and the Subaru has the HP!![/quote]
See Fabryce leave Hutto and Sheehan in the dust on the start, while Hutto and Sheehan stay perfectly well matched...
[quote]I told him I would support him in anyway possible when he bought the car. It turned out that I was available to help him out in the race. Nothing was done that Dave and Ali (Series Directors) weren't aware of. They knew what the cars were and put weight on us accordingly.[/quote]
In all seriousness, you would never see Speed allowing a World Challenge GT car to do fun runs with the Touring Cars. It's just not what racing is all about. Cars that run together have to be of equal caliber. We can play the back and forth game as long as we want, but in the end, a World Challenge Touring Car is not the same thing as a US Touring Car Championship car. You know the budgets are different, the amount of testing done is different, the modifications allowed are different, etc. The scale difference is probably greater than that between TC and GT.
You also know that Ali and Dave had to take total stabs in the dark at trying to equalize the cars without having any practical experience on which to base their decisions. I commend them for trying, but as was obvious to many of us, they failed this time around to get it perfect. No doubt they will do better this weekend when we get a little more World Challenge competition going on in USTCC (a BMW and a BMW driver in a non-BMW).
[quote]So don't be afraid of a little competition, that's what makes racing so much fun. I mean c'mon, I don't need a World Challenge car to beat you guys.....look at last year, I beat you guys 5 out of 7 races in Huttos car and one race I didn't even start.... :-)[/quote]
Hahaha... Well, Mister Sofronas, I commend you on taking a car with 10 years of racing development, buying all the already developed and tested parts, sticking them on, and just barely beating a couple of backyard mechanics working on a car that just came out and has no road racing history. We started from scratch and almost trounced ya! :)
[quote]DOOOOHHHH! I am gonna hear it for that one![/quote]
Hee hee... did you see our newest sponsor? Goes right in line with my response up one paragraph. [url=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=277240]Sheehan Motor Racing's Arrogance Reaches New Heights![/url]
Joel, again, just poking some fun :)
Hold on one second, everyone... I need to get used to this feeling. It's weird having a new one ripped for ya! Thanks James. Ouch! :alien:
Please, take this in good fun, I'm having a little fun.
[quote]C'mon, you're better than that!![/quote]
Okay, okay, I'll try...
[quote]You and Gary put forth a great effort with your Subaru and I am the first to acknowledge that.[/quote]
Why, thank you. You did an even better job than we did, last year! Actually, the one thing Gary and I can't get over from watching that video is how nicely your (and Hutto's) cars work. If anyone ever wants an explanation of the perfect slip angle, send them to look at your cars through the sweeper at the back of the track. We cried at how beautiful that was.
[quote]Joel, I didn't even race that car at Laguna. I was in the red 325is!!! Which race were you watching![/quote]
True, true, it was Hutto who set 10th fastest lap, I believe. I made a mistake and only figured that out after looking up all the times, recently. Sorry.
[quote]2) We were allowed to run the Hoosier tires when Ali gave me a 250lb weight penalty and a 50mm restrictor, that's how that happended. This motor has M3 cams but stock pistons, rods, crank my friend...still about 50-75 less hp than your WRX![/quote]
Well, not to pick on a small point or anything... According to [url=http://www.turnermotorsport.com/]Turner Motorsport[/url], an E36 325, without tuning, gains about 25 hp and 25 ft-lbs from M3 cams. I would expect similar results for the 328. 190+25=215 as a starting point, to our 227. After that, both cars can add the same types of mods, but you're starting from only 10 hp behind us. How'd your weight compare to 3320 pounds?
Oh yeah, and are you running a stock intake manifold? Stock MAF? Etc? These are all available for BMWs but not for WRXs. So I'd guess that 50-75 hp is more likely 0'ish? Maybe more, maybe less? C'mon James, we saw you walk on us... and we saw you walk on Hutto through the second half of the last lap, right up until the amazing recovery Gary H made - making up hundreds of feet in the last 200 feet of the race! ;)
[quote]But in the rain practice (where HP doesn't matter but AWD helps) I ran the same laptimes as Gary S. in the Sub![/quote]
Hey James, thanks! You helped prove my point - once we put your car at a severe disadvantage, it was ONLY as fast as our car :D I have to bow down to that wonderful car!
[quote]Joel, where do you get your facts...National Enquirer??[/quote]
I ain't no teutonic eck-spurt! Leave me alone! Err, that cooler looked more substantial than our stock rear crossmember. I gotta stop hypothesysing...
[quote]5) "100 yards of cage..." Sure....that car would weigh about 4000lbs.![/quote]
Hey! Then it would have been a closer match :)
[quote]7) Regarding qualifying......there were and still are some big misunderstandings.......I was supposed to be in my car.[/quote]
Hee hee... say what?
[quote]And how can you see this from the pits Joel??[/quote]
Dude, what's your crew chief doing during races? If I can't see, I gotsa move. Actually, right after the back sweeper is where I lost sight of y'all... and right before it, I couldn't see your lines because the track dipped too low. But the rest of the track, I made sure to see. That's my job.
[quote]I passed the Sub into turn one by outbraking him!!![/quote]
We just looked at some datalogs from a test session - we brake at 1.4 Gs and our cornering spikes to 1.6 Gs, with steady state at 1.4 Gs. Considering we make up good distance on Hutto in the braking zones (and that's where we passed him to take Vegas I from him), I once again have to bow down to the great car you have. Your car ain't too shabby!
[quote]how the Sub pulls up my butt on the back straight[/quote]
Aww, man, when you set me up like this, how can I refuse to lob the softball? I mean, it's too easy! James, that's the beauty of AWD - all the sand falling from the bags in your car didn't reduce our wonderful grip too much! :eek:
[quote]In fact, it looks like the BMW handles better and the Subaru has the HP!![/quote]
See Fabryce leave Hutto and Sheehan in the dust on the start, while Hutto and Sheehan stay perfectly well matched...
[quote]I told him I would support him in anyway possible when he bought the car. It turned out that I was available to help him out in the race. Nothing was done that Dave and Ali (Series Directors) weren't aware of. They knew what the cars were and put weight on us accordingly.[/quote]
In all seriousness, you would never see Speed allowing a World Challenge GT car to do fun runs with the Touring Cars. It's just not what racing is all about. Cars that run together have to be of equal caliber. We can play the back and forth game as long as we want, but in the end, a World Challenge Touring Car is not the same thing as a US Touring Car Championship car. You know the budgets are different, the amount of testing done is different, the modifications allowed are different, etc. The scale difference is probably greater than that between TC and GT.
You also know that Ali and Dave had to take total stabs in the dark at trying to equalize the cars without having any practical experience on which to base their decisions. I commend them for trying, but as was obvious to many of us, they failed this time around to get it perfect. No doubt they will do better this weekend when we get a little more World Challenge competition going on in USTCC (a BMW and a BMW driver in a non-BMW).
[quote]So don't be afraid of a little competition, that's what makes racing so much fun. I mean c'mon, I don't need a World Challenge car to beat you guys.....look at last year, I beat you guys 5 out of 7 races in Huttos car and one race I didn't even start.... :-)[/quote]
Hahaha... Well, Mister Sofronas, I commend you on taking a car with 10 years of racing development, buying all the already developed and tested parts, sticking them on, and just barely beating a couple of backyard mechanics working on a car that just came out and has no road racing history. We started from scratch and almost trounced ya! :)
[quote]DOOOOHHHH! I am gonna hear it for that one![/quote]
Hee hee... did you see our newest sponsor? Goes right in line with my response up one paragraph. [url=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=277240]Sheehan Motor Racing's Arrogance Reaches New Heights![/url]
Joel, again, just poking some fun :)
| JSofro | 11-19-2002 11:58 PM |
Joel, this is funny! You caught me on a good night.
OK.......HP #'s....that video doesn't lie. We can debate all day long who has what and the fact of the matter is that the SUB crawled up my but about 1/2 way down the back straight, not because of the AWD but because of the All Wheel 300+HP!!
Fabryce is from Jersey and see that's where all the 1/4 mile stuff started....he knows how to launch these things!! He didn't have to weigh as much as my car and had a less of a restrictor since the car was not as developed. It's about .3-.4 seconds slower than the 4dr.
Funny you mention how SCCA would never let a GT car run with Touring for fun because in SCCA World Challenge the WRX is classified in GT...not Touring!!! So you guys are running a GT car against a bunch of Touring cars!!
There are so many ways to cheat in that thing it's not even funny!
I had to weigh 250lbs. over the baseweight and run a restrictor that was more restrictive than all other cars. But I do have a ton of experience in BMW's so that doesn't hurt either. Our cars are sorted and competitive....we know how to set them up. You guys are still struggling with your handling......that was obvious when Sheehan tried to hang with us in the fast sweeper!
Regarding our record 5 wins in 7 races in 2001, well credit Fabryce with taking a street car from nothing to what it is now, a great car!! He did all the work on that thing and nothing special was done to it. You guys had AWD and TURBO...!! The BMW is developed but every car needs to go through growing pains...some shorter than others.
Backyard mechanics huh?? You guys sure worked hard and I commend you for your efforts but I have a couple of BMW's for sale if you want to win more often...:lol:
James
OK.......HP #'s....that video doesn't lie. We can debate all day long who has what and the fact of the matter is that the SUB crawled up my but about 1/2 way down the back straight, not because of the AWD but because of the All Wheel 300+HP!!
Fabryce is from Jersey and see that's where all the 1/4 mile stuff started....he knows how to launch these things!! He didn't have to weigh as much as my car and had a less of a restrictor since the car was not as developed. It's about .3-.4 seconds slower than the 4dr.
Funny you mention how SCCA would never let a GT car run with Touring for fun because in SCCA World Challenge the WRX is classified in GT...not Touring!!! So you guys are running a GT car against a bunch of Touring cars!!
There are so many ways to cheat in that thing it's not even funny!
I had to weigh 250lbs. over the baseweight and run a restrictor that was more restrictive than all other cars. But I do have a ton of experience in BMW's so that doesn't hurt either. Our cars are sorted and competitive....we know how to set them up. You guys are still struggling with your handling......that was obvious when Sheehan tried to hang with us in the fast sweeper!
Regarding our record 5 wins in 7 races in 2001, well credit Fabryce with taking a street car from nothing to what it is now, a great car!! He did all the work on that thing and nothing special was done to it. You guys had AWD and TURBO...!! The BMW is developed but every car needs to go through growing pains...some shorter than others.
Backyard mechanics huh?? You guys sure worked hard and I commend you for your efforts but I have a couple of BMW's for sale if you want to win more often...:lol:
James
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 11-20-2002 12:48 AM |
Hello,
James, no comment on the sandbags? :D
Re World Challenge, we're all curious about what may happen in 2004 with talk of changing the rule to allow turbos in Touring Car. That would put the WRX and the Neon SRT in Touring Car, where the rest of the 4-bangers and some of the 6-cylinder cars are. Right now the WRX is in GT because of the turbo... and there's not much chance to cheat with a turbo when one of the engineers from MoTeC is the datalogging inspector for WorldChallenge!
Re BMWs, it takes some time to compensate for the decades of road racing history that BMW has learned from and used in their incredible chassis and car designs. We're getting there, though... So come on by and watch us snag that championship right from under the BMWs this weekend... Heck, join the race, we could use the prize money! :devil:
Joel, [url=http://www.arrogantbastard.com]arrogant bastard![/url]
James, no comment on the sandbags? :D
Re World Challenge, we're all curious about what may happen in 2004 with talk of changing the rule to allow turbos in Touring Car. That would put the WRX and the Neon SRT in Touring Car, where the rest of the 4-bangers and some of the 6-cylinder cars are. Right now the WRX is in GT because of the turbo... and there's not much chance to cheat with a turbo when one of the engineers from MoTeC is the datalogging inspector for WorldChallenge!
Re BMWs, it takes some time to compensate for the decades of road racing history that BMW has learned from and used in their incredible chassis and car designs. We're getting there, though... So come on by and watch us snag that championship right from under the BMWs this weekend... Heck, join the race, we could use the prize money! :devil:
Joel, [url=http://www.arrogantbastard.com]arrogant bastard![/url]
| Kostamojen | 11-20-2002 02:29 AM |
I will be in the audience holding the "BMW's SUCK!" sign :lol:
| GMGBMW | 11-20-2002 02:38 AM |
Teh truth about round 6......... USTCC from the BMW team!!!!
Joel............. Cmon help me out, lets shed some light on this :)
1. We are a professional team and act acordingly.
2. Secondly our intentions were not some secret plot to undermine Gary Sheehan and his Subaru or any other competitor in the series. We did what needed to be done in order to put us in a position where we needed to be in the championship.
See the USTCC website press release It was made VERY Public as to what our intentions were for that race.. As a professional team we understand what it takes to win, this tactic has been used by teams in all disciplines in motorsports ( most recently Audi in ALMS)
4. And now the SO CALLED 100k world challenge 328's.
Where the hell is Joel buying that good crack he's smoking??
Those cars are X theft recovered street cars. Which have been run in WC since 2000. They are good cars but they arent 100k 328's. As a matter of fact both of those cars are for sale @ 30k for the 4 door and 28k for the 2door AN ABSOLUTE STEAL considering they are worth 100k according to Joel that is..LOLOLOLOL
4b Engines,, Gary Hutto;s engine is a 15k mile junk yard engine that had the head rebuilt last season becouse he bent some valves....So it is now 2 years old!!!!!!!!!! And it has has well over 200 hours of racing on it... Can you say tired.......... That damn engine is so old it makes a whore look like a virgin,..........LOLOL
So again a misconseption on Joels part as to horsepower. As a matter of fact the car made 199 hp at the rear wheels when dynoed at Buttonwillow earlier in the summer.. ( FYI 199 rear wheel horsepower is equal to approx 215 flywheel horsepower on a BMW) We dont run any modifications to that engine other than a TMS Chip and borla race exhaust ,, We even have to use a restrictor so where is he getting off about this tuned engine crap.. Tuned I WISH!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont see any Dyno charts on Sheehan's Subaru........... As a matter of fact his car hasnt been dynoed...Oh wait it was dynoed at Nasa , Or was that at Nellis,,,,,,,,, No wait maybe it was Miramar,,,,,,,,,, **** i cant remeber........ LOLOL ......... But are we whining Nooooooooo.....Thats Not too fair now is it...LOLOLOLOL
Ive been building cars and engine to know that a boxer engine will almost always make more horsepower /torque than a inline ever will when compared to in displacement. And turbo's well lets just say there are ways to get around even the craftiest of boost metering devices...:) ( sligh grin)
4c. And in regards to any illegalities or unfairness in running the other 2 cars.. It could be nothing more than further from the truth. Yes the cars ran hoosier tires.. But they also did run alot of ballast and were restricted as well.(Oh by the way I ran 1 yr OLD old Grand Am Cup hooisers which are not the same as the ones used in ustcc if any of you know about race tires you know that 1 yr old heat cycled hooisers basically suck..........)
Cage, the cages were allowed to run in USTCC as per the chief steward and the only thing not with the rule book was that the strut towers were tied in.. Oh and he forgot to mention the other cars in the series ( NOT BMW:S) that have this done as well..
5. In response to Joels comment that I couldnt run a 1;30 lap time he forgot to mention that i ran the 1;30:4 when I drove during the race.... Ummmmmmmmm Hello. And this was with a restrictor on the car and after it got damaged. Which is equal to my teammates time in qualifying. Further more the USTCC rule book allows for team mates to quailfy each others car. I didnt make it up USTCC made the rule.. We just played by it.
Again this can be verified at the usttc website.
6. Gary Blew by me .. Um NO , I let Gary by. I was a lap down after the incident when i got dropped kicked by Jeff Owen in the Integra. I was not part of that race between Sheehan and Hutto (at that point) .He also forgot to mention that I was able to stay with the leaders for several laps with a damged car..Niether myself nor my team mates race dirty.
Further more, Gary Sheehan himself came up to me and thanked me for giving him room to get by after the race....
Now if I wanted to be *&%@$#*@ I could have closed the door and blocked him for the 4 corners ahead............ LOLOL NOW That would have sucked!!!!!!!!!!!!
Team Sheehan as well as any other team running in the USTCC has every right to employ any tactics they wish. They can also enter multiple cars if they choose too. And lets just make it clear that the subaru WRX is not even legal for the series to begin with. All wheel drive and turbo cars do not fit the Touring car formula but instead the GT formula.. So, if we really want to start whining about whats legal and whats not ... We can play that game too. But then again we have not once made any comment about this, up to this point............. LOLOLOL
So if there any other questions in regards to our tactics, plans or the truth about the race please feel free to email myself or any of the GMG team directly. I will be more than happy to clarify any misconseptions that have been posted to this forum.
Or please feel to drop by and say Hi at the track.. We are racers and enjoy other racers what ever they may drive.............
Good luck to all the teams and racers in the remainder of the USTCC series
Fabryce Kutyba
Crew Chief
Global Motorsports Group Inc
2001 USTCC Champions
[email][email protected][/email]
PS>. Joel ,Gary and Team, its been a blast racing against you guys...( and Gal I didnt forget your GF Gary. I dont want her kicking my ass LOLOL )......... But cmon............. cant we all be freinds... Oh ya, Like James said,,,,,,,,,,,We do have those 100k 328's for sale. special price for you if you wanna win:)
You guys have done a commendable job with that car and it has come along way since last year...You are very much correct in saying that BMW has a LONG history of WINNING and Numerous World Championships .. Its all in the breed as we like to say :) Hey you know if you want stop by sometime.. I might let you in on some of those speed secrets all you have to do is ask...:)))
Good luck at Sears!!!!!!!!!!!
1. We are a professional team and act acordingly.
2. Secondly our intentions were not some secret plot to undermine Gary Sheehan and his Subaru or any other competitor in the series. We did what needed to be done in order to put us in a position where we needed to be in the championship.
See the USTCC website press release It was made VERY Public as to what our intentions were for that race.. As a professional team we understand what it takes to win, this tactic has been used by teams in all disciplines in motorsports ( most recently Audi in ALMS)
4. And now the SO CALLED 100k world challenge 328's.
Where the hell is Joel buying that good crack he's smoking??
Those cars are X theft recovered street cars. Which have been run in WC since 2000. They are good cars but they arent 100k 328's. As a matter of fact both of those cars are for sale @ 30k for the 4 door and 28k for the 2door AN ABSOLUTE STEAL considering they are worth 100k according to Joel that is..LOLOLOLOL
4b Engines,, Gary Hutto;s engine is a 15k mile junk yard engine that had the head rebuilt last season becouse he bent some valves....So it is now 2 years old!!!!!!!!!! And it has has well over 200 hours of racing on it... Can you say tired.......... That damn engine is so old it makes a whore look like a virgin,..........LOLOL
So again a misconseption on Joels part as to horsepower. As a matter of fact the car made 199 hp at the rear wheels when dynoed at Buttonwillow earlier in the summer.. ( FYI 199 rear wheel horsepower is equal to approx 215 flywheel horsepower on a BMW) We dont run any modifications to that engine other than a TMS Chip and borla race exhaust ,, We even have to use a restrictor so where is he getting off about this tuned engine crap.. Tuned I WISH!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont see any Dyno charts on Sheehan's Subaru........... As a matter of fact his car hasnt been dynoed...Oh wait it was dynoed at Nasa , Or was that at Nellis,,,,,,,,, No wait maybe it was Miramar,,,,,,,,,, **** i cant remeber........ LOLOL ......... But are we whining Nooooooooo.....Thats Not too fair now is it...LOLOLOLOL
Ive been building cars and engine to know that a boxer engine will almost always make more horsepower /torque than a inline ever will when compared to in displacement. And turbo's well lets just say there are ways to get around even the craftiest of boost metering devices...:) ( sligh grin)
4c. And in regards to any illegalities or unfairness in running the other 2 cars.. It could be nothing more than further from the truth. Yes the cars ran hoosier tires.. But they also did run alot of ballast and were restricted as well.(Oh by the way I ran 1 yr OLD old Grand Am Cup hooisers which are not the same as the ones used in ustcc if any of you know about race tires you know that 1 yr old heat cycled hooisers basically suck..........)
Cage, the cages were allowed to run in USTCC as per the chief steward and the only thing not with the rule book was that the strut towers were tied in.. Oh and he forgot to mention the other cars in the series ( NOT BMW:S) that have this done as well..
5. In response to Joels comment that I couldnt run a 1;30 lap time he forgot to mention that i ran the 1;30:4 when I drove during the race.... Ummmmmmmmm Hello. And this was with a restrictor on the car and after it got damaged. Which is equal to my teammates time in qualifying. Further more the USTCC rule book allows for team mates to quailfy each others car. I didnt make it up USTCC made the rule.. We just played by it.
Again this can be verified at the usttc website.
6. Gary Blew by me .. Um NO , I let Gary by. I was a lap down after the incident when i got dropped kicked by Jeff Owen in the Integra. I was not part of that race between Sheehan and Hutto (at that point) .He also forgot to mention that I was able to stay with the leaders for several laps with a damged car..Niether myself nor my team mates race dirty.
Further more, Gary Sheehan himself came up to me and thanked me for giving him room to get by after the race....
Now if I wanted to be *&%@$#*@ I could have closed the door and blocked him for the 4 corners ahead............ LOLOL NOW That would have sucked!!!!!!!!!!!!
Team Sheehan as well as any other team running in the USTCC has every right to employ any tactics they wish. They can also enter multiple cars if they choose too. And lets just make it clear that the subaru WRX is not even legal for the series to begin with. All wheel drive and turbo cars do not fit the Touring car formula but instead the GT formula.. So, if we really want to start whining about whats legal and whats not ... We can play that game too. But then again we have not once made any comment about this, up to this point............. LOLOLOL
So if there any other questions in regards to our tactics, plans or the truth about the race please feel free to email myself or any of the GMG team directly. I will be more than happy to clarify any misconseptions that have been posted to this forum.
Or please feel to drop by and say Hi at the track.. We are racers and enjoy other racers what ever they may drive.............
Good luck to all the teams and racers in the remainder of the USTCC series
Fabryce Kutyba
Crew Chief
Global Motorsports Group Inc
2001 USTCC Champions
[email][email protected][/email]
PS>. Joel ,Gary and Team, its been a blast racing against you guys...( and Gal I didnt forget your GF Gary. I dont want her kicking my ass LOLOL )......... But cmon............. cant we all be freinds... Oh ya, Like James said,,,,,,,,,,,We do have those 100k 328's for sale. special price for you if you wanna win:)
You guys have done a commendable job with that car and it has come along way since last year...You are very much correct in saying that BMW has a LONG history of WINNING and Numerous World Championships .. Its all in the breed as we like to say :) Hey you know if you want stop by sometime.. I might let you in on some of those speed secrets all you have to do is ask...:)))
Good luck at Sears!!!!!!!!!!!
| Kostamojen | 11-20-2002 04:44 AM |
Why are you guys in here bragging? :confused:
We all know BMW's are good, especially for GT style racing, but Gary is like our lone representative Subaru still in America, Of course the car isnt perfected! SMR is still paving their own road as they go along... They are really following anyones lead, nor have the opportunity to just go out and buy a pre-prepped car since with SOA's sponsorship and the fact that the car was practically the first WRX sold in America, its been step by step for them, without many guideposts to go by... I'm still amazed how many changes this car has gone through in just two years... It really makes me proud.
But, ok, lets all go buy pre-prepped BMW's :p :lol: ;)
(BTW, I got to see the Z4 in person, including sit in it... oooh lala! :eek: You guys can keep your last gen 3-series :lol: )
We all know BMW's are good, especially for GT style racing, but Gary is like our lone representative Subaru still in America, Of course the car isnt perfected! SMR is still paving their own road as they go along... They are really following anyones lead, nor have the opportunity to just go out and buy a pre-prepped car since with SOA's sponsorship and the fact that the car was practically the first WRX sold in America, its been step by step for them, without many guideposts to go by... I'm still amazed how many changes this car has gone through in just two years... It really makes me proud.
But, ok, lets all go buy pre-prepped BMW's :p :lol: ;)
(BTW, I got to see the Z4 in person, including sit in it... oooh lala! :eek: You guys can keep your last gen 3-series :lol: )
| briank | 11-20-2002 09:11 AM |
Re: Teh truth about round 6......... USTCC from the BMW team!!!!
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GMGBMW [/i]
[B]2. Secondly our intentions were not some secret plot to undermine Gary Sheehan and his Subaru or any other competitor in the series. We did what needed to be done in order to put us in a position where we needed to be in the championship.
See the USTCC website press release It was made VERY Public as to what our intentions were for that race.. As a professional team we understand what it takes to win, this tactic has been used by teams in all disciplines in motorsports ( most recently Audi in ALMS)
[/B][/QUOTE]
OK, both of you BMW guys have downplayed your cars. And both of you have said that what you did is legal. But there's no denying its a dirty tactic, especially at this level of racing. You practically admit this yourself when you say
"We did what needed to be done in order to put us in a position where we needed to be in the championship."
At this level, Gary & Joel's team doesn't have the resources to support two cars like those other bigger money series. And there aren't many WRX race teams out there (yet) to team up with Gary against you guys, so its certainly not fair to employ this tactic.
If Hutto is truly the better driver, then why not let him beat Gary man to man. He must not be good enough if he had to get help from two of his buddies. And don't say your intentions weren't to help him, or I'll refer you to that quote above.
That being said, it doesn't seem like the extra BMWs had that big an affect on the outcome of the race. Gary nor Joel seem truly mad about it (but what do I know). Its just a little upsetting that BMWs showed up with the intention of giving an unfair advantage to a fellow driver who they feared couldn't win it on his own.
-BrianK
[B]2. Secondly our intentions were not some secret plot to undermine Gary Sheehan and his Subaru or any other competitor in the series. We did what needed to be done in order to put us in a position where we needed to be in the championship.
See the USTCC website press release It was made VERY Public as to what our intentions were for that race.. As a professional team we understand what it takes to win, this tactic has been used by teams in all disciplines in motorsports ( most recently Audi in ALMS)
[/B][/QUOTE]
OK, both of you BMW guys have downplayed your cars. And both of you have said that what you did is legal. But there's no denying its a dirty tactic, especially at this level of racing. You practically admit this yourself when you say
"We did what needed to be done in order to put us in a position where we needed to be in the championship."
At this level, Gary & Joel's team doesn't have the resources to support two cars like those other bigger money series. And there aren't many WRX race teams out there (yet) to team up with Gary against you guys, so its certainly not fair to employ this tactic.
If Hutto is truly the better driver, then why not let him beat Gary man to man. He must not be good enough if he had to get help from two of his buddies. And don't say your intentions weren't to help him, or I'll refer you to that quote above.
That being said, it doesn't seem like the extra BMWs had that big an affect on the outcome of the race. Gary nor Joel seem truly mad about it (but what do I know). Its just a little upsetting that BMWs showed up with the intention of giving an unfair advantage to a fellow driver who they feared couldn't win it on his own.
-BrianK
| enduroshark | 11-20-2002 10:36 AM |
Come on, any racer, given the resources, would do anything within the rules to win.
All of this sounds like good clean fun to me!
:lol:
All of this sounds like good clean fun to me!
:lol:
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 11-20-2002 02:16 PM |
Re: Teh truth about round 6......... USTCC from the BMW team!!!!
Hello,
Well, I must say, I seem to have poked a stick into the hornet's (BMW's) nest! As someone just posted, everything is in good fun. We're not mad at the BMWs. Just surprised by their tactics. I just read their [url=http://www.ustcc.com/PRESS_RELEASES/11_15_02_GMG_vegas.html]press release[/url] again. Maybe we're not worthy of our new sponsor: maybe that should go to GMG! :lol:
Anyway, it's nice having James Sofronas and Fabryce "Mr. Smith" Kutyba come down and rub elbows with us common folks. Let me see... where to begin?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GMGBMW [/i]
[B]1. We are a professional team and act acordingly.[/b][/quote]
I've never thought otherwise. Doing whatever it takes to win is exactly what racing is all about. Thank you both for posting that you feel we are also a very professional team.
[quote][b]2. Secondly our intentions were not some secret plot to undermine Gary Sheehan [...] We did what needed to be done in order to put us in a position where we needed to be in the championship.[/b][/quote]
Your non-secret, quite open plot would have been perfectly acceptable to everyone involved, from us, to the other competitors, to the fans, etc., if you had participated on a level playing field. Bringing in other cars built to USTCC specifications would have been quite exciting and we would have loved to dice it out with a bunch of equal caliber racecars. James is a great driver and with a car built to the same specs as Hutto's car, he would have been quite capable of battling in the front without the sandbagging techniques. I know, it's much easier to let off the throttle but to have that reserve capability there, then it is to have to race at 110% of the car's capabilities.
That is the aspect of the "plot" that frustrated many of the teams at Las Vegas. Had the GMG cars affected the points standing, which they never should have even been considered for doing, many people's points races would have been affected. The race is not just for first place. There are several other close races for positions below that! Cars competing in fun runs should not be allowed to score points and should never be allowed on the podium. A fun run is exactly that - for fun and not for points. It is good that the racing organization agreed with that point after the race was completed.
This weekend's Word Challenge competitors will not be a part of the points and will only be there for their fun running. I look forward to seeing their incredible cars and driving, without having to wonder how they will ruin the competitive nature of USTCC.
[quote][b]this tactic has been used by teams in all disciplines in motorsports ( most recently Audi in ALMS)[/b][/quote]
I'm sorry... what cars did Audi bring into ALMS that would otherwise have been considered too powerful and too fast to race in the series? Did they race prototypes in GT? Did ALMS add a couple hundred pounds and a restrictor to a prototype and then send the prototype to race with a bunch of lowly sedans? If not, then Audi did not use the same tactic.
[quote][b]4. And now the SO CALLED 100k world challenge 328's.[/quote][/b]
Compare your BMWs - the cost to create one from scratch - to the rest of the cars in the field. I don't doubt that if USTCC had a claim rule, everyone would be claiming those BMWs!
[quote][b]That damn engine is so old it makes a whore look like a virgin,..........LOLOL[/quote][/b]
Hee hee... real "professional" quote from a real "professional" race team! :devil:
200 hours of racing is quite commendable, but says nothing about the actual power output. But Fabryce, you went off on a tangent. We all agree that Hutto's car is USTCC material! As I said, and as you see at the race start, the BMW and the Subaru stay exactly equal down the "drag strip" to corner one.
The question was not Gary H's car, it was James' and your cars that were unfairly classed with us and initially part of the points championship.
[quote][b]I dont see any Dyno charts on Sheehan's Subaru........... [/quote][/b]
The Subaru has been dynoed and the race officials have the dyno sheets. If your World Challenge BMWs are even 10% more powerful than Hutto's car, then they are more powerful than the Subaru.
[quote][b]Ive been building cars and engine to know that a boxer engine will almost always make more horsepower /torque than a inline ever will when compared to in displacement.[/quote][/b]
Fabryce, Fabryce, Fabryce. The rule is "puff, puff, give. puff, puff, give." Wherever I'm buying my crack, I'm getting ripped off.
Displacement is displacement in 4-stroke engines. There is no design that is inherently more powerful. The Subaru NA engines make 165 hp for a 2.5 liter motor. A 2.5 liter BMW motor makes 189 hp (we'll stick to the older generation of BMW motors since they make less power per liter). There are very few NA Subarus pushing over 200 hp at the wheels. It takes a restrictor to limit a 2.5 liter BMW engine to only 200 hp at the wheels.
I think you're confusing "flat-4" with "two-stroke" or "Wankel". A two-stroke will make twice as much power as a 4-stroke because it has twice as many power strokes per given RPM. A Wankel (ie, RX7 engine) does the same thing. Every rotation draws air in, combusts the air, and forces it out. Two-strokes and Wankel's therefore make twice the specific output of 4-stroke engines. Actually, Wankel's are the most efficient of the three, which is why 3rd Gen RX7s can run around knocking the pants off almost any other car, with only 1.3 liters of displacement.
But to say a flat-4 makes more power is to completely misunderstand engine technology. Look to our brothers from Germany to understand. No one ever claims the Porsche's have an output advantage. The Porsche's compete quite nicely with the BMWs everywhere in the world. The Porsche's have the same specific output as the BMWs, both of which are higher than that of the econo-box sports car that we race.
So keep that part straight, Mr. Engine Builder! :D
[quote][b]And turbo's well lets just say there are ways to get around even the craftiest of boost metering devices...(sligh grin)[/quote][/b]
Hahaha... there's plenty of ways to cheat in NA cars. As you can see from the fact that we've now fallen to second place, we're losing in the craftiness department ;)
[quote][b]But they also did run alot of ballast and were restricted as well.[/quote][/b]
We run 700 pounds of ballast and a restrictor plate. What were the total weights of the two non-USTCC BMWs? I would hope that they were well above our 3320 minimum weight?
[quote][b]steward and the only thing not with the rule book was that the strut towers were tied in.. Oh and he forgot to mention the other cars in the series ( NOT BMW:S) that have this done as well..[/quote][/b]
Everyone is cheating so we might as well cheat to? Yeah, I also noticed that some cars don't have their factory dash pads as required by the rules. I'm not about to protest someone running in the back of the pack. I am far more concerned with the front of the pack meeting the rules to the letter. All the cars running up front for points should be prepared to the specs as required by the rulebook.
[quote][b]5. In response to Joels comment that I couldnt run a 1;30 lap time he forgot to mention that i ran the 1;30:4 when I drove during the race....[/quote][/b]
Very commendable. You did a great job and I know for a fact that I would never be competitive against you in a racecar. You are quite the driver, but the fact is, the top drivers in the series are one notch up from your level, no offense intended. They're a good mile ahead of me. However, you were 2 seconds off the front pace and that difference is an eternity in racing (all three front cars ran in the 1:29s). You were also only 0.1 seconds faster than Jeff Owen, who was fairly consistent the whole weekend, pushing 1:30s and 1:31s during the race AND qualifying. That is the only reason there was grumbling in the pits about your starting position. If you can prove you're a good driver, then no one complains about you starting in the top. If you haven't proven it yet, then people complain. That's all.
What you folks did with the qualifying placements was completely within the rules and no one did more than grumble about it.
[quote][b]6. Gary Blew by me .. Um NO , I let Gary by.[/quote][/b]
I meant that. What I was trying to get across was that you did not cause any problems when you let him by. I meant "blew by" as opposed to him getting stuck behind you or anything like that. Thank you very much for your civil driving.
[quote][b]Team Sheehan as well as any other team running in the USTCC has every right to employ any tactics they wish.[/quote][/b]
We _can_ employ such tactics. However, we would prefer to simply show who is the best. We intend to do that and snag that driver's championship from Gary H this weekend!
[quote][b]And lets just make it clear that the subaru WRX is not even legal for the series to begin with. All wheel drive and turbo cars do not fit the Touring car formula but instead the GT formula..[/quote][/b]
Err, that's World Challenge, not USTCC. In USTCC, the car is legal. In World Challenge, the car would be a GT car instead of a Touring Car. But in US Touring Car, the main restriction is 4-seater.
[quote][b]Or please feel to drop by and say Hi at the track.. We are racers and enjoy other racers what ever they may drive.............[/quote][/b]
Amen to that. We too love talking to people at the track and always invite anyone to drop on by. I did drop by and say hi, and we talked a bit with James, too, when he dropped by and on the way out of the track. We, too, are there for the fun of it all.
[quote][b]Good luck to all the teams and racers in the remainder of the USTCC series[/quote][/b]
Thank you.
[quote][b]You guys have done a commendable job with that car and it has come along way since last year...You are very much correct in saying that BMW has a LONG history of WINNING and Numerous World Championships .. Its all in the breed as we like to say :) Hey you know if you want stop by sometime.. I might let you in on some of those speed secrets all you have to do is ask...:)))[/quote][/b]
We're finally licking the rally heritage in our Subaru and will soon clean up on that BMW racing heritage. :D
Hopefully, the fans find this back and forth entertaining. I sure do!
Joel
Well, I must say, I seem to have poked a stick into the hornet's (BMW's) nest! As someone just posted, everything is in good fun. We're not mad at the BMWs. Just surprised by their tactics. I just read their [url=http://www.ustcc.com/PRESS_RELEASES/11_15_02_GMG_vegas.html]press release[/url] again. Maybe we're not worthy of our new sponsor: maybe that should go to GMG! :lol:
Anyway, it's nice having James Sofronas and Fabryce "Mr. Smith" Kutyba come down and rub elbows with us common folks. Let me see... where to begin?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GMGBMW [/i]
[B]1. We are a professional team and act acordingly.[/b][/quote]
I've never thought otherwise. Doing whatever it takes to win is exactly what racing is all about. Thank you both for posting that you feel we are also a very professional team.
[quote][b]2. Secondly our intentions were not some secret plot to undermine Gary Sheehan [...] We did what needed to be done in order to put us in a position where we needed to be in the championship.[/b][/quote]
Your non-secret, quite open plot would have been perfectly acceptable to everyone involved, from us, to the other competitors, to the fans, etc., if you had participated on a level playing field. Bringing in other cars built to USTCC specifications would have been quite exciting and we would have loved to dice it out with a bunch of equal caliber racecars. James is a great driver and with a car built to the same specs as Hutto's car, he would have been quite capable of battling in the front without the sandbagging techniques. I know, it's much easier to let off the throttle but to have that reserve capability there, then it is to have to race at 110% of the car's capabilities.
That is the aspect of the "plot" that frustrated many of the teams at Las Vegas. Had the GMG cars affected the points standing, which they never should have even been considered for doing, many people's points races would have been affected. The race is not just for first place. There are several other close races for positions below that! Cars competing in fun runs should not be allowed to score points and should never be allowed on the podium. A fun run is exactly that - for fun and not for points. It is good that the racing organization agreed with that point after the race was completed.
This weekend's Word Challenge competitors will not be a part of the points and will only be there for their fun running. I look forward to seeing their incredible cars and driving, without having to wonder how they will ruin the competitive nature of USTCC.
[quote][b]this tactic has been used by teams in all disciplines in motorsports ( most recently Audi in ALMS)[/b][/quote]
I'm sorry... what cars did Audi bring into ALMS that would otherwise have been considered too powerful and too fast to race in the series? Did they race prototypes in GT? Did ALMS add a couple hundred pounds and a restrictor to a prototype and then send the prototype to race with a bunch of lowly sedans? If not, then Audi did not use the same tactic.
[quote][b]4. And now the SO CALLED 100k world challenge 328's.[/quote][/b]
Compare your BMWs - the cost to create one from scratch - to the rest of the cars in the field. I don't doubt that if USTCC had a claim rule, everyone would be claiming those BMWs!
[quote][b]That damn engine is so old it makes a whore look like a virgin,..........LOLOL[/quote][/b]
Hee hee... real "professional" quote from a real "professional" race team! :devil:
200 hours of racing is quite commendable, but says nothing about the actual power output. But Fabryce, you went off on a tangent. We all agree that Hutto's car is USTCC material! As I said, and as you see at the race start, the BMW and the Subaru stay exactly equal down the "drag strip" to corner one.
The question was not Gary H's car, it was James' and your cars that were unfairly classed with us and initially part of the points championship.
[quote][b]I dont see any Dyno charts on Sheehan's Subaru........... [/quote][/b]
The Subaru has been dynoed and the race officials have the dyno sheets. If your World Challenge BMWs are even 10% more powerful than Hutto's car, then they are more powerful than the Subaru.
[quote][b]Ive been building cars and engine to know that a boxer engine will almost always make more horsepower /torque than a inline ever will when compared to in displacement.[/quote][/b]
Fabryce, Fabryce, Fabryce. The rule is "puff, puff, give. puff, puff, give." Wherever I'm buying my crack, I'm getting ripped off.
Displacement is displacement in 4-stroke engines. There is no design that is inherently more powerful. The Subaru NA engines make 165 hp for a 2.5 liter motor. A 2.5 liter BMW motor makes 189 hp (we'll stick to the older generation of BMW motors since they make less power per liter). There are very few NA Subarus pushing over 200 hp at the wheels. It takes a restrictor to limit a 2.5 liter BMW engine to only 200 hp at the wheels.
I think you're confusing "flat-4" with "two-stroke" or "Wankel". A two-stroke will make twice as much power as a 4-stroke because it has twice as many power strokes per given RPM. A Wankel (ie, RX7 engine) does the same thing. Every rotation draws air in, combusts the air, and forces it out. Two-strokes and Wankel's therefore make twice the specific output of 4-stroke engines. Actually, Wankel's are the most efficient of the three, which is why 3rd Gen RX7s can run around knocking the pants off almost any other car, with only 1.3 liters of displacement.
But to say a flat-4 makes more power is to completely misunderstand engine technology. Look to our brothers from Germany to understand. No one ever claims the Porsche's have an output advantage. The Porsche's compete quite nicely with the BMWs everywhere in the world. The Porsche's have the same specific output as the BMWs, both of which are higher than that of the econo-box sports car that we race.
So keep that part straight, Mr. Engine Builder! :D
[quote][b]And turbo's well lets just say there are ways to get around even the craftiest of boost metering devices...(sligh grin)[/quote][/b]
Hahaha... there's plenty of ways to cheat in NA cars. As you can see from the fact that we've now fallen to second place, we're losing in the craftiness department ;)
[quote][b]But they also did run alot of ballast and were restricted as well.[/quote][/b]
We run 700 pounds of ballast and a restrictor plate. What were the total weights of the two non-USTCC BMWs? I would hope that they were well above our 3320 minimum weight?
[quote][b]steward and the only thing not with the rule book was that the strut towers were tied in.. Oh and he forgot to mention the other cars in the series ( NOT BMW:S) that have this done as well..[/quote][/b]
Everyone is cheating so we might as well cheat to? Yeah, I also noticed that some cars don't have their factory dash pads as required by the rules. I'm not about to protest someone running in the back of the pack. I am far more concerned with the front of the pack meeting the rules to the letter. All the cars running up front for points should be prepared to the specs as required by the rulebook.
[quote][b]5. In response to Joels comment that I couldnt run a 1;30 lap time he forgot to mention that i ran the 1;30:4 when I drove during the race....[/quote][/b]
Very commendable. You did a great job and I know for a fact that I would never be competitive against you in a racecar. You are quite the driver, but the fact is, the top drivers in the series are one notch up from your level, no offense intended. They're a good mile ahead of me. However, you were 2 seconds off the front pace and that difference is an eternity in racing (all three front cars ran in the 1:29s). You were also only 0.1 seconds faster than Jeff Owen, who was fairly consistent the whole weekend, pushing 1:30s and 1:31s during the race AND qualifying. That is the only reason there was grumbling in the pits about your starting position. If you can prove you're a good driver, then no one complains about you starting in the top. If you haven't proven it yet, then people complain. That's all.
What you folks did with the qualifying placements was completely within the rules and no one did more than grumble about it.
[quote][b]6. Gary Blew by me .. Um NO , I let Gary by.[/quote][/b]
I meant that. What I was trying to get across was that you did not cause any problems when you let him by. I meant "blew by" as opposed to him getting stuck behind you or anything like that. Thank you very much for your civil driving.
[quote][b]Team Sheehan as well as any other team running in the USTCC has every right to employ any tactics they wish.[/quote][/b]
We _can_ employ such tactics. However, we would prefer to simply show who is the best. We intend to do that and snag that driver's championship from Gary H this weekend!
[quote][b]And lets just make it clear that the subaru WRX is not even legal for the series to begin with. All wheel drive and turbo cars do not fit the Touring car formula but instead the GT formula..[/quote][/b]
Err, that's World Challenge, not USTCC. In USTCC, the car is legal. In World Challenge, the car would be a GT car instead of a Touring Car. But in US Touring Car, the main restriction is 4-seater.
[quote][b]Or please feel to drop by and say Hi at the track.. We are racers and enjoy other racers what ever they may drive.............[/quote][/b]
Amen to that. We too love talking to people at the track and always invite anyone to drop on by. I did drop by and say hi, and we talked a bit with James, too, when he dropped by and on the way out of the track. We, too, are there for the fun of it all.
[quote][b]Good luck to all the teams and racers in the remainder of the USTCC series[/quote][/b]
Thank you.
[quote][b]You guys have done a commendable job with that car and it has come along way since last year...You are very much correct in saying that BMW has a LONG history of WINNING and Numerous World Championships .. Its all in the breed as we like to say :) Hey you know if you want stop by sometime.. I might let you in on some of those speed secrets all you have to do is ask...:)))[/quote][/b]
We're finally licking the rally heritage in our Subaru and will soon clean up on that BMW racing heritage. :D
Hopefully, the fans find this back and forth entertaining. I sure do!
Joel
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 11-20-2002 02:28 PM |
Hello,
Meanwhile, anyone willing, please do rain dances for the rest of this week. We wouldn't mind putting the Subaru into its real element and then lapping all the BMWs. That would be fun. :)
Joel
Meanwhile, anyone willing, please do rain dances for the rest of this week. We wouldn't mind putting the Subaru into its real element and then lapping all the BMWs. That would be fun. :)
Joel
| driggity | 11-20-2002 03:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Joel Gat, 1.8L [/i]
[B]Hello,
Meanwhile, anyone willing, please do rain dances for the rest of this week. We wouldn't mind putting the Subaru into its real element and then lapping all the BMWs. That would be fun. :)
Joel [/B][/QUOTE]
If any rain tries to threaten the Pacific Northwest this weekend I'll be sure to send it south :D
[B]Hello,
Meanwhile, anyone willing, please do rain dances for the rest of this week. We wouldn't mind putting the Subaru into its real element and then lapping all the BMWs. That would be fun. :)
Joel [/B][/QUOTE]
If any rain tries to threaten the Pacific Northwest this weekend I'll be sure to send it south :D
| trhoppe | 11-20-2002 03:22 PM |
PRAY FOR RAIN!
Glad to see this sort of exchange between the two camps. Im glad you guys are not mad and cussing each other (at least in public) :lol:
-Tom
Glad to see this sort of exchange between the two camps. Im glad you guys are not mad and cussing each other (at least in public) :lol:
-Tom
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