| ScoobyTodd | 02-02-2006 11:24 PM |
Solo2 and Alchy Injection?
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I've reviewed the Solo2 rules several times and can't find anything on the use of alcohol/methanol injection.
Anyone have any thoughts or a link to where it specifically states what class alch. injection would place me in?
Thanks,
Todd
Anyone have any thoughts or a link to where it specifically states what class alch. injection would place me in?
Thanks,
Todd
| Homemade WRX | 02-02-2006 11:42 PM |
I vaguely recall a thread on this not too long ago...you may want to check...I was wondering about this too...but haven't started searching yet
edit: read rule 14.10.F don't know how old this is
[url]http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/sp.html[/url]
another with a cooler rule setup...kind of a check list
[url]http://www.autocross.com/tr/carclassing.shtml[/url]
edit: read rule 14.10.F don't know how old this is
[url]http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/sp.html[/url]
another with a cooler rule setup...kind of a check list
[url]http://www.autocross.com/tr/carclassing.shtml[/url]
| SloRice | 02-03-2006 12:06 AM |
I believe it is not legal in any class because it is considered an alternative fuel source. Kind of like nitrous. But you can run water injection (depending on the class)
| ChrisW | 02-03-2006 12:08 AM |
Assuming that alky injection falls under water injection, you can run in BSP
See section 15.10.F
you can download the 2006 rules here
[url]http://www.scca.org/_filelibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf[/url]
See section 15.10.F
you can download the 2006 rules here
[url]http://www.scca.org/_filelibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf[/url]
| Templar | 02-03-2006 12:15 AM |
Alcohol or Methanol injection does not fall under water injection. The key part of water injection is H2O. Other forms of injection fall into some pretty shady rules. It counts as part of the fuel load and in street modified, you can add anything provided it is a chemical that is also found in fuels. Unfortunately, methanol and other forms of alcohol aren't found in any modern pump fuels that I am aware of, and it is therefore illegal in SM. I don't know about the fuel limitations in the full prepared and modified classes.
| Calamity Jesus | 02-03-2006 06:32 AM |
E85 (85% ethyl alcohol / 15% petrol) can be pumped as a gas alternative in several regions of the US. I think you could make a very valid argument that alcohol injection could be legal.
| PhilC | 02-03-2006 09:16 AM |
[QUOTE=Templar]Unfortunately, methanol and other forms of alcohol aren't found in any modern pump fuels that I am aware of, and it is therefore illegal in SM.[/QUOTE]
Most winter blend gasoline used in the northern United States contains ethanol in some percentage and in areas with EPA restrictions like north-eastern Ohio it is actually tough to find gasoline even in the summer that does not contain a percentage (as much as 12% at BP stations) of ethanol.
My thoughts: From a safety perspective I would say it is not allowed in Solo II at all, flammable liquids or oxygenates that are not stored in the fuel system but are in the car are a potential hazard, it's why nitrous bottles have to be removed from the car even if they aren't hooked up. From a rules perspective I think that water injection is clearly allowed in SP, P, M and SM but I don't think I'd chance the alky injection without a clarification on whether it's allowed. How much more overhead against detonation can alky provide compared to straight water?
Most winter blend gasoline used in the northern United States contains ethanol in some percentage and in areas with EPA restrictions like north-eastern Ohio it is actually tough to find gasoline even in the summer that does not contain a percentage (as much as 12% at BP stations) of ethanol.
My thoughts: From a safety perspective I would say it is not allowed in Solo II at all, flammable liquids or oxygenates that are not stored in the fuel system but are in the car are a potential hazard, it's why nitrous bottles have to be removed from the car even if they aren't hooked up. From a rules perspective I think that water injection is clearly allowed in SP, P, M and SM but I don't think I'd chance the alky injection without a clarification on whether it's allowed. How much more overhead against detonation can alky provide compared to straight water?
| hotrod | 02-06-2006 06:24 AM |
Up to 10% ethanol is legal as a DOT approved motor fuel anywhere in the United States. Up to 10% ethanol is listed as an acceptable fuel in your owners manual.
E85 is also a DOT approved fuel (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) and is sold throughout the country as a motor fuel.
Refiners are required to use ethanol in fuels in certain areas due to emissions laws but can choose to use it as an octane enhancer as well ( which is what happened when Katrina hit -- lots of additional ethanol was blended for a while to streatch available fuel stocks)
I think you should be able to make a verystrong case for use of ethanol in your water injection system. Methanol is not so clear.
Low concentrations of alcohol in water are not flammable, and pose no safety hazard.
Larry
E85 is also a DOT approved fuel (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) and is sold throughout the country as a motor fuel.
Refiners are required to use ethanol in fuels in certain areas due to emissions laws but can choose to use it as an octane enhancer as well ( which is what happened when Katrina hit -- lots of additional ethanol was blended for a while to streatch available fuel stocks)
I think you should be able to make a verystrong case for use of ethanol in your water injection system. Methanol is not so clear.
Low concentrations of alcohol in water are not flammable, and pose no safety hazard.
Larry
| crystalhelix | 02-06-2006 08:48 AM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]
My thoughts: From a safety perspective I would say it is not allowed in Solo II at all, flammable liquids or oxygenates that are not stored in the fuel system but are in the car are a potential hazard, it's why nitrous bottles have to be removed from the car even if they aren't hooked up. From a rules perspective I think that water injection is clearly allowed in SP, P, M and SM but I don't think I'd chance the alky injection without a clarification on whether it's allowed. How much more overhead against detonation can alky provide compared to straight water?[/QUOTE]
+1....
Having a non-spec fuel container in the trunk with something flammable==bad
My thoughts: From a safety perspective I would say it is not allowed in Solo II at all, flammable liquids or oxygenates that are not stored in the fuel system but are in the car are a potential hazard, it's why nitrous bottles have to be removed from the car even if they aren't hooked up. From a rules perspective I think that water injection is clearly allowed in SP, P, M and SM but I don't think I'd chance the alky injection without a clarification on whether it's allowed. How much more overhead against detonation can alky provide compared to straight water?[/QUOTE]
+1....
Having a non-spec fuel container in the trunk with something flammable==bad
| KC | 02-06-2006 09:20 AM |
[QUOTE=hotrod]Up to 10% ethanol is legal as a DOT approved motor fuel anywhere in the United States. Up to 10% ethanol is listed as an acceptable fuel in your owners manual.
E85 is also a DOT approved fuel (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) and is sold throughout the country as a motor fuel.
Refiners are required to use ethanol in fuels in certain areas due to emissions laws but can choose to use it as an octane enhancer as well ( which is what happened when Katrina hit -- lots of additional ethanol was blended for a while to streatch available fuel stocks)
I think you should be able to make a verystrong case for use of ethanol in your water injection system. Methanol is not so clear.
Low concentrations of alcohol in water are not flammable, and pose no safety hazard.
Larry[/QUOTE]
Whoa, wait a minute here.
As crystalhelix and others have siad, and maybe you're not getting the point...
There's a difference between using it in your gas tank/fuel cell vs. having it in a separate container for direct injection.
Having it as part of pump gas, or added to your fuel tank is what the rules allow. The rules do not make a case for additonal containers/enclosures to hold the mixture.
--kC
E85 is also a DOT approved fuel (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) and is sold throughout the country as a motor fuel.
Refiners are required to use ethanol in fuels in certain areas due to emissions laws but can choose to use it as an octane enhancer as well ( which is what happened when Katrina hit -- lots of additional ethanol was blended for a while to streatch available fuel stocks)
I think you should be able to make a verystrong case for use of ethanol in your water injection system. Methanol is not so clear.
Low concentrations of alcohol in water are not flammable, and pose no safety hazard.
Larry[/QUOTE]
Whoa, wait a minute here.
As crystalhelix and others have siad, and maybe you're not getting the point...
There's a difference between using it in your gas tank/fuel cell vs. having it in a separate container for direct injection.
Having it as part of pump gas, or added to your fuel tank is what the rules allow. The rules do not make a case for additonal containers/enclosures to hold the mixture.
--kC
| silver arrow | 02-06-2006 11:48 AM |
I would love alk inj.
| hotrod | 02-06-2006 02:52 PM |
[quote] There's a difference between using it in your gas tank/fuel cell vs. having it in a separate container for direct injection.
Having it as part of pump gas, or added to your fuel tank is what the rules allow. The rules do not make a case for additonal containers/enclosures to hold the mixture.[/quote]
No I understand your view perfectly I just disagree with it.
1. Water injection is explicitly allowed. ( by inference all the normal and customary equipment and components are legal, including the separate holding tank)
2. It is common knowledge that most water injection systems use partial mixtures of water and alcohol. (the defacto standard for mixture for over 60 years has been 50/50 mix of water and an alcohol. Usually methanol but ethanol has also been widely used even during WWII). Since they do not put an explicit water only provision in the rules, than any customary mixture should be legal)
To do so would be like making it illegal to fill your tires with nitrogen but compressed air is accepable.
3. Intercoolers are un-restricted -- by definition water injection is an internal coolant ie it is a type of intercooler, and part of the intercooler system.
4. In low alcohol mixtures the fluid is not flamable.
5. If ethanol is legal in the fuel, then there is no logical reason why it should be illegal to put it into the intake air charge by other means.
Larry
Having it as part of pump gas, or added to your fuel tank is what the rules allow. The rules do not make a case for additonal containers/enclosures to hold the mixture.[/quote]
No I understand your view perfectly I just disagree with it.
1. Water injection is explicitly allowed. ( by inference all the normal and customary equipment and components are legal, including the separate holding tank)
2. It is common knowledge that most water injection systems use partial mixtures of water and alcohol. (the defacto standard for mixture for over 60 years has been 50/50 mix of water and an alcohol. Usually methanol but ethanol has also been widely used even during WWII). Since they do not put an explicit water only provision in the rules, than any customary mixture should be legal)
To do so would be like making it illegal to fill your tires with nitrogen but compressed air is accepable.
3. Intercoolers are un-restricted -- by definition water injection is an internal coolant ie it is a type of intercooler, and part of the intercooler system.
4. In low alcohol mixtures the fluid is not flamable.
5. If ethanol is legal in the fuel, then there is no logical reason why it should be illegal to put it into the intake air charge by other means.
Larry
| AUTOwrXER | 02-06-2006 03:06 PM |
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Fehrman [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:15 AM
To: Doug Gill
Subject: Water injection in SP
Doug,
This should be an easy one for you, but I want to make 100% sure before I
start final tuning of the car. The SP rules permit water injections
systems. Is water the only thing that can be sprayed? As I'm sure you are
aware, many people use water blended with alcohol in these systems. I don't
see an allowance for the alcohol, so I'm assuming that only water can be
injected. Is that correct?
Regards,
Joel Fehrman
Atlanta Region Solo Chairperson
Hi, Joel,
I'm glad you have so much confidence in me, but I may ruin my rep answering this one. ;)
As you already noted, 15.10.F says, "Intake water injection systems are allowed." Some may argue
that the system is allowed but it doesn't say it has to be just plain water. But then if it was
injecting more than water, wouldn't it really be more than a water injection system? That's what
the rule states.
3.6.B has a sentence that says, "Oxygen and/or nitrogen bearing additives are prohibited, except
for those originally present in service station pump fuel." Alcohol is an oxygen-bearing
additive and can be present in pump fuel, but does it have to be in the fuel to be used?
I personally think it's a twisted interpretation to say that you can inject a water/alcohol mix
into the intake. But I don't know what a protest committee or even the SEB will think when they
examine the text of the Rules. I think it may be a split decision when/if first asked.
There have been some people suggesting that propane can be injected into a diesel engine because
it's a fuel that's specifically allowed with no restrictions except for safety. The SEB is
changing the rule to restrict it to gas-engines converted to propane, not an additive (or
something along those lines).
I may be completely off base, too (I know you're shocked!). The SEB may not really care since it
is a gasoline additive in some applications.
I'll be glad to send this to them if you'd like an "official" clarification. I just don't know
how long it will take (they are covered up).
Let me know.
- Doug
Doug Gill
SCCA Technical Manager, Solo
PO Box 19400
Topeka, KS 66619-0400
1-800-770-2055
From: Joel Fehrman [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:15 AM
To: Doug Gill
Subject: Water injection in SP
Doug,
This should be an easy one for you, but I want to make 100% sure before I
start final tuning of the car. The SP rules permit water injections
systems. Is water the only thing that can be sprayed? As I'm sure you are
aware, many people use water blended with alcohol in these systems. I don't
see an allowance for the alcohol, so I'm assuming that only water can be
injected. Is that correct?
Regards,
Joel Fehrman
Atlanta Region Solo Chairperson
Hi, Joel,
I'm glad you have so much confidence in me, but I may ruin my rep answering this one. ;)
As you already noted, 15.10.F says, "Intake water injection systems are allowed." Some may argue
that the system is allowed but it doesn't say it has to be just plain water. But then if it was
injecting more than water, wouldn't it really be more than a water injection system? That's what
the rule states.
3.6.B has a sentence that says, "Oxygen and/or nitrogen bearing additives are prohibited, except
for those originally present in service station pump fuel." Alcohol is an oxygen-bearing
additive and can be present in pump fuel, but does it have to be in the fuel to be used?
I personally think it's a twisted interpretation to say that you can inject a water/alcohol mix
into the intake. But I don't know what a protest committee or even the SEB will think when they
examine the text of the Rules. I think it may be a split decision when/if first asked.
There have been some people suggesting that propane can be injected into a diesel engine because
it's a fuel that's specifically allowed with no restrictions except for safety. The SEB is
changing the rule to restrict it to gas-engines converted to propane, not an additive (or
something along those lines).
I may be completely off base, too (I know you're shocked!). The SEB may not really care since it
is a gasoline additive in some applications.
I'll be glad to send this to them if you'd like an "official" clarification. I just don't know
how long it will take (they are covered up).
Let me know.
- Doug
Doug Gill
SCCA Technical Manager, Solo
PO Box 19400
Topeka, KS 66619-0400
1-800-770-2055
| crystalhelix | 02-06-2006 03:09 PM |
Write a letter to the SEB, I am sure though that unless it's in your gas tank they aren't going to budge. Oh, and common knowledge doesn't apply. If it doesn't say you can, you can't is the rule of thumb. And it doesn't say anywhere, water mixed with alcohol is OK. You're waiting till 2007 if you can get the rule changed anyways. I notice alchy is the new "black" lately in the EM forums but most people just stick to the good stuff and run C16.
-J
-J
| sciolist | 02-06-2006 04:06 PM |
Joel, did you ask Doug to pursue an SEB clarification?
One issue that comes to mind is this: Water injection is legal in SP, which obviously implies that some of the cars using it will be street driven. It's not practical to use a straight water injection system in some areas of the country because the water will freeze. Would SEB rule against something that gave some drivers an advantage based on climate? The argument could be made that Solo II events are not generally run in sub-freezing temperatures. I wonder if they would hold that DD cars from lower temperature localities who did use meth on the street would have to use straight water at race events. Seems like this would change the tuning parameters a bit, but I guess not all that much.
One issue that comes to mind is this: Water injection is legal in SP, which obviously implies that some of the cars using it will be street driven. It's not practical to use a straight water injection system in some areas of the country because the water will freeze. Would SEB rule against something that gave some drivers an advantage based on climate? The argument could be made that Solo II events are not generally run in sub-freezing temperatures. I wonder if they would hold that DD cars from lower temperature localities who did use meth on the street would have to use straight water at race events. Seems like this would change the tuning parameters a bit, but I guess not all that much.
| silver arrow | 02-06-2006 05:32 PM |
Doug,
Would you see any gains with just water?
Would you see any gains with just water?
| AUTOwrXER | 02-06-2006 05:52 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]Joel, did you ask Doug to pursue an SEB clarification?[/QUOTE]
I didn't. His response was in line with my expectations, so I figured I would bug the SEB on bigger things (like allowing boost in SP).
I didn't. His response was in line with my expectations, so I figured I would bug the SEB on bigger things (like allowing boost in SP).
| AUTOwrXER | 02-06-2006 05:55 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]Doug,
Would you see any gains with just water?[/QUOTE]
I'm not Doug, but yes, I did see gains with water and pump fuel on stock boost levels. I did not see gains with C16 and water at the stock boost level, but I think it may make a difference when the boost is turned up. When we get the car together and back on the dyno next month I'll know more about the effects of water with race gas (which burns cooler because of the lead content), but I can say that it certainly had a benefit on pump gas.
-Joel
Would you see any gains with just water?[/QUOTE]
I'm not Doug, but yes, I did see gains with water and pump fuel on stock boost levels. I did not see gains with C16 and water at the stock boost level, but I think it may make a difference when the boost is turned up. When we get the car together and back on the dyno next month I'll know more about the effects of water with race gas (which burns cooler because of the lead content), but I can say that it certainly had a benefit on pump gas.
-Joel
| ChrisW | 02-06-2006 06:01 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]Joel, did you ask Doug to pursue an SEB clarification?
One issue that comes to mind is this: Water injection is legal in SP, which obviously implies that some of the cars using it will be street driven. It's not practical to use a straight water injection system in some areas of the country because the water will freeze. Would SEB rule against something that gave some drivers an advantage based on climate? The argument could be made that Solo II events are not generally run in sub-freezing temperatures. I wonder if they would hold that DD cars from lower temperature localities who did use meth on the street would have to use straight water at race events. Seems like this would change the tuning parameters a bit, but I guess not all that much.[/QUOTE]
To prevent freezing, many people I have read about who are known to use water injection use washer fluid instead. and hey, it's got alky too, and keeps your intake clean to boot:p
One issue that comes to mind is this: Water injection is legal in SP, which obviously implies that some of the cars using it will be street driven. It's not practical to use a straight water injection system in some areas of the country because the water will freeze. Would SEB rule against something that gave some drivers an advantage based on climate? The argument could be made that Solo II events are not generally run in sub-freezing temperatures. I wonder if they would hold that DD cars from lower temperature localities who did use meth on the street would have to use straight water at race events. Seems like this would change the tuning parameters a bit, but I guess not all that much.[/QUOTE]
To prevent freezing, many people I have read about who are known to use water injection use washer fluid instead. and hey, it's got alky too, and keeps your intake clean to boot:p
| crystalhelix | 02-06-2006 06:10 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]Doug,
Would you see any gains with just water?[/QUOTE]
ninja edit: must learn to read the rest of the thread before posting
Would you see any gains with just water?[/QUOTE]
ninja edit: must learn to read the rest of the thread before posting
| AUTOwrXER | 02-06-2006 06:12 PM |
I just don't keep my car in places where it gets below freezing. I only use water wetter in the coolant system as well. Autocrossing and ice racing are two different things. I don't think freezing conditions is a reason to allow alcohol in SP. The "S" is only theoretical anyway, as none of the top cars double as daily drivers.
| sciolist | 02-07-2006 12:18 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I just don't keep my car in places where it gets below freezing. I only use water wetter in the coolant system as well. Autocrossing and ice racing are two different things. I don't think freezing conditions is a reason to allow alcohol in SP. The "S" is only theoretical anyway, as none of the top cars double as daily drivers.[/QUOTE]
Ice racing? I imagine you're aware that a considerable portion of the country is situated above the 35th parallel. It will very likely still be below freezing in the morning shade when our local events start in late April... and then up to the mid 80's in the afternoon sun.
I understand that the Solo II rule set is largely aimed at the top cars, but there is also a general idea of inclusiveness built in. I think the SCCA is keenly aware that it can not afford to cater only to the most advanced drivers. My understanding is that some degree of effort is made for the rules to work for all areas of the country at the local level.
This topic is of interest to me because I suspect that we are going to have some issues in the Oregon Region now that boost has been deregulated in SP. I'm not using injection (yet) because I doubt that it really offers any performance gains, at least not that justify the cost and complexity. I also don't think I need the extra safety, which is likely the main benefit.
Anyway, our state's climate is essentially divided into two zones by the Cascades. Those who use injection systems on the west side of the mountains typically use water. East siders often use alcohol. Legitimate or not, I'm anticipating some conflict when this comes to a head, so of course an SEB clarification would be helpful.
Ice racing? I imagine you're aware that a considerable portion of the country is situated above the 35th parallel. It will very likely still be below freezing in the morning shade when our local events start in late April... and then up to the mid 80's in the afternoon sun.
I understand that the Solo II rule set is largely aimed at the top cars, but there is also a general idea of inclusiveness built in. I think the SCCA is keenly aware that it can not afford to cater only to the most advanced drivers. My understanding is that some degree of effort is made for the rules to work for all areas of the country at the local level.
This topic is of interest to me because I suspect that we are going to have some issues in the Oregon Region now that boost has been deregulated in SP. I'm not using injection (yet) because I doubt that it really offers any performance gains, at least not that justify the cost and complexity. I also don't think I need the extra safety, which is likely the main benefit.
Anyway, our state's climate is essentially divided into two zones by the Cascades. Those who use injection systems on the west side of the mountains typically use water. East siders often use alcohol. Legitimate or not, I'm anticipating some conflict when this comes to a head, so of course an SEB clarification would be helpful.
| AUTOwrXER | 02-07-2006 12:37 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]Ice racing? I imagine you're aware that a considerable portion of the country is situated above the 35th parallel. It will very likely still be below freezing in the morning shade when our local events start in late April... and then up to the mid 80's in the afternoon sun.
I understand that the Solo II rule set is largely aimed at the top cars, but there is also a general idea of inclusiveness built in. I think the SCCA is keenly aware that it can not afford to cater only to the most advanced drivers. My understanding is that some degree of effort is made for the rules to work for all areas of the country at the local level.
This topic is of interest to me because I suspect that we are going to have some issues in the Oregon Region now that boost has been deregulated in SP. I'm not using injection (yet) because I doubt that it really offers any performance gains, at least not that justify the cost and complexity. I also don't think I need the extra safety, which is likely the main benefit.
Anyway, our state's climate is essentially divided into two zones by the Cascades. Those who use injection systems on the west side of the mountains typically use water. East siders often use alcohol. Legitimate or not, I'm anticipating some conflict when this comes to a head, so of course an SEB clarification would be helpful.[/QUOTE]
OK, then write the SEB. I still think it's ridiculous to say that alcohol should be allowed because water freezes. I use the washer reservoir for the water tank, and there is no way in hell that that water freezes when the engine is running. Add the water before your runs. The SP ruleset isn't designed for your daily driver. Furthermore, you have the option to not run water at all, and then you don't have to worry about it.
I understand that the Solo II rule set is largely aimed at the top cars, but there is also a general idea of inclusiveness built in. I think the SCCA is keenly aware that it can not afford to cater only to the most advanced drivers. My understanding is that some degree of effort is made for the rules to work for all areas of the country at the local level.
This topic is of interest to me because I suspect that we are going to have some issues in the Oregon Region now that boost has been deregulated in SP. I'm not using injection (yet) because I doubt that it really offers any performance gains, at least not that justify the cost and complexity. I also don't think I need the extra safety, which is likely the main benefit.
Anyway, our state's climate is essentially divided into two zones by the Cascades. Those who use injection systems on the west side of the mountains typically use water. East siders often use alcohol. Legitimate or not, I'm anticipating some conflict when this comes to a head, so of course an SEB clarification would be helpful.[/QUOTE]
OK, then write the SEB. I still think it's ridiculous to say that alcohol should be allowed because water freezes. I use the washer reservoir for the water tank, and there is no way in hell that that water freezes when the engine is running. Add the water before your runs. The SP ruleset isn't designed for your daily driver. Furthermore, you have the option to not run water at all, and then you don't have to worry about it.
| sciolist | 02-07-2006 01:00 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]OK, then write the SEB. I still think it's ridiculous to say that alcohol should be allowed because water freezes. I use the washer reservoir for the water tank, and there is no way in hell that that water freezes when the engine is running. Add the water before your runs. The SP ruleset isn't designed for your daily driver. Furthermore, you have the option to not run water at all, and then you don't have to worry about it.[/QUOTE]
Joel, just for the record I generally agree with you. I'm only anticipating what I think alcohol injectors are going to say. :)
Joel, just for the record I generally agree with you. I'm only anticipating what I think alcohol injectors are going to say. :)
| AUTOwrXER | 02-07-2006 02:25 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]Joel, just for the record I generally agree with you. I'm only anticipating what I think alcohol injectors are going to say. :)[/QUOTE]
Right on. If it was allowed I'd be the first to run it :banana:
Right on. If it was allowed I'd be the first to run it :banana:
| ace996 | 03-07-2006 12:05 AM |
Some of us do use our daily-drivers for SP. It must be nice to have the ability to have a dedicated "street-prep" car...but for those of us who use our DDs, windshield washer fluid would be great. In NY, we have some early and late season events that are certainly subject to freezing. Just like boost in SP, changes are good. Certainly there will be those that abuse, always are, but it'd be nice knowing that I don't need separate tunes for different months. That would help keep my "SP" class affordable.
-ace
-ace
| AUTOwrXER | 03-07-2006 12:28 PM |
[QUOTE=ace996]Some of us do use our daily-drivers for SP. It must be nice to have the ability to have a dedicated "street-prep" car...but for those of us who use our DDs, windshield washer fluid would be great. In NY, we have some early and late season events that are certainly subject to freezing. Just like boost in SP, changes are good. Certainly there will be those that abuse, always are, but it'd be nice knowing that I don't need separate tunes for different months. That would help keep my "SP" class affordable.
-ace[/QUOTE]
Not sure I understand your point. Do you want windsheild washer fluid in the reservoir or meth? FWIW I don't want to be near a car that has an extremely flammable fluid in the windsheild washer reservoir, at least without a solid fire system installed.
I agree with you that change is good, but I don't see this lowering cost. Furthermore, any EM you choose with meth should have the ability to switch between maps. You need to have a plan for when the Meth tank runs out.
-ace[/QUOTE]
Not sure I understand your point. Do you want windsheild washer fluid in the reservoir or meth? FWIW I don't want to be near a car that has an extremely flammable fluid in the windsheild washer reservoir, at least without a solid fire system installed.
I agree with you that change is good, but I don't see this lowering cost. Furthermore, any EM you choose with meth should have the ability to switch between maps. You need to have a plan for when the Meth tank runs out.
| Homemade WRX | 03-07-2006 05:09 PM |
[QUOTE=ace996]Some of us do use our daily-drivers for SP. It must be nice to have the ability to have a dedicated "street-prep" car...but for those of us who use our DDs, windshield washer fluid would be great. [/QUOTE]
no one said you had to use your washer fluid container
no one said you had to use your washer fluid container
| RichWRX | 03-07-2006 08:06 PM |
I have a 3 gallon fuel cell in my trunk for alcohol injection, is that ok?
| EVOlutionary | 03-07-2006 08:48 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Not sure I understand your point. Do you want windsheild washer fluid in the reservoir or meth? FWIW I don't want to be near a car that has an extremely flammable fluid in the windsheild washer reservoir, at least without a solid fire system installed . . . [/QUOTE]
Ummmm . . . windshield washer fluid has methanol in it . . . at least here in the northern regions. Is windshield washer fluid flammable??
EVOlutionary
Ummmm . . . windshield washer fluid has methanol in it . . . at least here in the northern regions. Is windshield washer fluid flammable??
EVOlutionary
| PhilC | 03-08-2006 09:36 AM |
For some reason most people aren't getting the idea. IF you allow alcohol to be injected or even a mix of water and hydrocarbon then you open the door for some really crazy stuff. What happens when someone decides the way to make the power is to inject pure acetone? Do you want to be standing next to the car with an acetone resevoir under the hood, or within 50 feet of it for that matter?
It's not about what YOU want to do with your alcohol injection it is about what COULD be done by others if you open that rule up. With the rule allowing water only the individual safety concerns of percentage mixtures and\or the particular hydrocarbon chain\ring you are injecting don't have to be worried about.
Imagine for a minute what would happen if your system started leaking and spraying onto your nice hot exhaust: Water injection: safe just a bunch of steam. Alcohol/water mix probably safe at 25% or under but above that you can burn it just fine if it gets warm enough, like say spraying onto the exhaust manifold, and it burns in a manner that most fire extinguishers won't put it out. Pure methanol and\or ethanol, definitely not especially given it's burn characteristics. Some other hydrocarbons, now here you're talking about some serious risks of not just fire but also explosion.
I still haven't seen an answer on how your tune would be different with alcohol versus water injection? Other than the freeze factor do you need a different tune for water than you do for water\alcohol mix?
It's not about what YOU want to do with your alcohol injection it is about what COULD be done by others if you open that rule up. With the rule allowing water only the individual safety concerns of percentage mixtures and\or the particular hydrocarbon chain\ring you are injecting don't have to be worried about.
Imagine for a minute what would happen if your system started leaking and spraying onto your nice hot exhaust: Water injection: safe just a bunch of steam. Alcohol/water mix probably safe at 25% or under but above that you can burn it just fine if it gets warm enough, like say spraying onto the exhaust manifold, and it burns in a manner that most fire extinguishers won't put it out. Pure methanol and\or ethanol, definitely not especially given it's burn characteristics. Some other hydrocarbons, now here you're talking about some serious risks of not just fire but also explosion.
I still haven't seen an answer on how your tune would be different with alcohol versus water injection? Other than the freeze factor do you need a different tune for water than you do for water\alcohol mix?
| AUTOwrXER | 03-09-2006 08:43 PM |
[QUOTE=RichWRX]I have a 3 gallon fuel cell in my trunk for alcohol injection, is that ok?[/QUOTE]
For BSP, no it's not. I've been doing some other reading for a 2007 project, and it came back around to this. The allowance that Doug mentioned might be legal was under the fuel rules. In that case, 15.2.K specifically prohibits an additional fuel tank. Basically there is no way spraying alcohol could be construed as legal in SP.
That being said, a system meeting the requirements of 16.1.D (as well as general safety requirements) would allow alcohol in SM. RichWRX - from your listed mods you are likely in SM regardless, so you would be OK.
For BSP, no it's not. I've been doing some other reading for a 2007 project, and it came back around to this. The allowance that Doug mentioned might be legal was under the fuel rules. In that case, 15.2.K specifically prohibits an additional fuel tank. Basically there is no way spraying alcohol could be construed as legal in SP.
That being said, a system meeting the requirements of 16.1.D (as well as general safety requirements) would allow alcohol in SM. RichWRX - from your listed mods you are likely in SM regardless, so you would be OK.
| Davenow | 03-10-2006 01:53 PM |
bump for more input since I just asked about this and was pointed to this thread.
| AUTOwrXER | 03-10-2006 03:11 PM |
And what other input would you be looking for?
| Davenow | 03-10-2006 03:20 PM |
a definate answer would be nice.
Doug says its ok, but what class?
We never got clarification beyond Doug either. We dont have a solid answer to if its legal or not.
a 50/50 mix is NOT flamable or dangerous. We have tried, trust me, it DOES NOT ignite. I tried using a spark (2 wires and a battery), a mini torch, and a lighter, at 50/50 it just isnt a fire hazard in any way.
If you are using the washer bottle, you arent adding an additional fuel tank to the car.
Doug says its ok, but what class?
We never got clarification beyond Doug either. We dont have a solid answer to if its legal or not.
a 50/50 mix is NOT flamable or dangerous. We have tried, trust me, it DOES NOT ignite. I tried using a spark (2 wires and a battery), a mini torch, and a lighter, at 50/50 it just isnt a fire hazard in any way.
If you are using the washer bottle, you arent adding an additional fuel tank to the car.
| PhilC | 03-10-2006 04:05 PM |
Heat it to 140 degrees or so and a 50/50 mix will flame just fine and dandy. Try it with some 100 proof liquor and you'll see. Just have to get enough vapor on the surface of the liquid and poof, say maybe the underhood temperature of a car on a nice hot 90 degree afternoon. It isn't just 151 that can be used for flaming shots in the bar. Get it warm enough and cognac (~40%) or even brandy (~35%) make wonderful additions to a nice flambe'. In fact you can with normal cooking temperatures flambe with anything clear down to 30%. Note all these examples are ethanol but should hold equally true with methanol as well.
Remember here that your methanol burns with an almost invisible flame once it's ignited and that it cannot be put out with many fire extinguishers. IMO, it's not safe to have a 50% methanol mix under the hood no matter what but most definitely not at an autocross where you might be gridded next to me.
Remember here that your methanol burns with an almost invisible flame once it's ignited and that it cannot be put out with many fire extinguishers. IMO, it's not safe to have a 50% methanol mix under the hood no matter what but most definitely not at an autocross where you might be gridded next to me.
| Templar | 03-10-2006 04:26 PM |
I actually have been scouring through the rulebook today and I cannot find where alcohol or methanol injection would be legal in SM either unless it falls under the "engine is unlimited" rule. If it is considered to fall under the fuel system rules, then there are no additional provisions on top of the SP rules, so it would be limited to water injection only, at least, by my interpretation.
| speedyHAM | 03-10-2006 04:31 PM |
At work we only allow a 24% alcohol mixed with water for certain operations because of the flamibility concerns. Anything under that and it's really hard to get it to burn, much over that and it will ignite readily.
You can put a flame out with gas if you splash the match, but if the gas is a mist you are going to get a fireball.
You can put a flame out with gas if you splash the match, but if the gas is a mist you are going to get a fireball.
| zzyzx | 03-10-2006 05:08 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]I'm not using injection (yet) because I doubt that it really offers any performance gains, at least not that justify the cost and complexity. I also don't think I need the extra safety, which is likely the main benefit.[/QUOTE]
Water injection makes the A/F mix more detonation resistant, allow both more timing and more boost on any given octane fuel. Very significant gains can been seen if you re-tune for water injection. Water/alchy is even better than straight water.
The question as to wheter water injection in a class that allows unlimited boost on stock H/W... Roger that.
Water injection makes the A/F mix more detonation resistant, allow both more timing and more boost on any given octane fuel. Very significant gains can been seen if you re-tune for water injection. Water/alchy is even better than straight water.
The question as to wheter water injection in a class that allows unlimited boost on stock H/W... Roger that.
| Foxy | 03-12-2006 11:09 PM |
There's someone in the Rocky Mountain solo area who runs alky injection in his Evo, who was sent an e-mail stating that he cannot even show up at events any more due to safety concerns or something.
[quote]Crap, somehow the Solo safety steward found me talking on EvoM about the last event and saw the discussion about my alky being legal in SM or not and then got my email and contacted me saying it's not legal at SCCA events period, so I can't come back. I have no idea how this person randomly found my thread in the land of ether, but oh well. I was going to talk to my SM competitors about it to see if they would allow it, since it's unclear in the rules, but according to this person, I can't even show up with alky. I know there's people around the country doing it with no problem, but the safety steward here found out somehow and won't let me come. I obviously don't want to be a safety threat, but I'd be interested in hearing of the last alky injection incident at an auto-x. I can do 140mph down the backstretch at PMI in a santcioned road racing event, but I can't go 50-60mph around some cones. It mainly sucks, because I can't just turn it off and not use it - too much of a tuning issue.
So, it was fun while it lasted! If anyone knows of other auto-x leagues/clubs that don't outright disallow alky injection, let me know.[/quote]
[url=http://www.awdpirates.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9423&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30]Thread here with a few more details[/url].
[quote]Crap, somehow the Solo safety steward found me talking on EvoM about the last event and saw the discussion about my alky being legal in SM or not and then got my email and contacted me saying it's not legal at SCCA events period, so I can't come back. I have no idea how this person randomly found my thread in the land of ether, but oh well. I was going to talk to my SM competitors about it to see if they would allow it, since it's unclear in the rules, but according to this person, I can't even show up with alky. I know there's people around the country doing it with no problem, but the safety steward here found out somehow and won't let me come. I obviously don't want to be a safety threat, but I'd be interested in hearing of the last alky injection incident at an auto-x. I can do 140mph down the backstretch at PMI in a santcioned road racing event, but I can't go 50-60mph around some cones. It mainly sucks, because I can't just turn it off and not use it - too much of a tuning issue.
So, it was fun while it lasted! If anyone knows of other auto-x leagues/clubs that don't outright disallow alky injection, let me know.[/quote]
[url=http://www.awdpirates.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9423&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30]Thread here with a few more details[/url].
| ScoobyTodd | 03-12-2006 11:49 PM |
^^ that sucks. I don't see a huge problem with it if you don't use it during the events so as to not gain an unfair advantage and cross into the shade of grey whether you can have ANY alcohol in the mixture or not.
If I go this route I figure if I have a near empty tank and swap maps to a STU-legal (no boost changes) then I don't see the problem. I guess some might freak b/c of the possibility of a fire danger. Heck, a lot of the old Lotus Elans and other leaky drip AutoX guys freak me out more than something like this in terms of a fire danger.
If I go this route I figure if I have a near empty tank and swap maps to a STU-legal (no boost changes) then I don't see the problem. I guess some might freak b/c of the possibility of a fire danger. Heck, a lot of the old Lotus Elans and other leaky drip AutoX guys freak me out more than something like this in terms of a fire danger.
| Davenow | 03-13-2006 12:43 AM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]Heat it to 140 degrees or so and a 50/50 mix will flame just fine and dandy. Try it with some 100 proof liquor and you'll see. Just have to get enough vapor on the surface of the liquid and poof, say maybe the underhood temperature of a car on a nice hot 90 degree afternoon. It isn't just 151 that can be used for flaming shots in the bar. Get it warm enough and cognac (~40%) or even brandy (~35%) make wonderful additions to a nice flambe'. In fact you can with normal cooking temperatures flambe with anything clear down to 30%. Note all these examples are ethanol but should hold equally true with methanol as well.
Remember here that your methanol burns with an almost invisible flame once it's ignited and that it cannot be put out with many fire extinguishers. IMO, it's not safe to have a 50% methanol mix under the hood no matter what but most definitely not at an autocross where you might be gridded next to me.[/QUOTE]
A few points to consider.
1. Im not using methanol, Im not talking about methanol, methanol injection is not what we are discussing here. Its denatured alcohol. Its not the same thing, and it has a visible flame.
2. Its not getting anywhere near 140 degrees in that container, and with the underhood temps, it evaporates IMMEDIATELY if spilled.
3. The guy with the EVO should have simply gone to water injection, showed up at the event, and everytime he passed the steward, gave him the finger.
4. You really need to learn a little about the ACTUAL safety and/or dangers of this stuff before you go making statements based on fears that come from not fully understanding the stuff. Its not the danger you seem to think it is, its not anything remotely like we are driving around with a bomb under our hoods, you seem to forget how much gasoline is flowing into the engine compartment under pretty high pressure, and that cars get in wrecks all the time where fuel lines/fittings are ruptured, yet cars bursting into flames is pretty rare. I wonder why....
BTW that evo guys situation is a SHINING example of why reflashes suck.
Remember here that your methanol burns with an almost invisible flame once it's ignited and that it cannot be put out with many fire extinguishers. IMO, it's not safe to have a 50% methanol mix under the hood no matter what but most definitely not at an autocross where you might be gridded next to me.[/QUOTE]
A few points to consider.
1. Im not using methanol, Im not talking about methanol, methanol injection is not what we are discussing here. Its denatured alcohol. Its not the same thing, and it has a visible flame.
2. Its not getting anywhere near 140 degrees in that container, and with the underhood temps, it evaporates IMMEDIATELY if spilled.
3. The guy with the EVO should have simply gone to water injection, showed up at the event, and everytime he passed the steward, gave him the finger.
4. You really need to learn a little about the ACTUAL safety and/or dangers of this stuff before you go making statements based on fears that come from not fully understanding the stuff. Its not the danger you seem to think it is, its not anything remotely like we are driving around with a bomb under our hoods, you seem to forget how much gasoline is flowing into the engine compartment under pretty high pressure, and that cars get in wrecks all the time where fuel lines/fittings are ruptured, yet cars bursting into flames is pretty rare. I wonder why....
BTW that evo guys situation is a SHINING example of why reflashes suck.
| PhilC | 03-13-2006 09:31 AM |
1. OK, so you're using denatured alcohol (ETHANOL with additives usually methanol or isoproponal in case you didn't know) and my examples of flammable liquor are even more on target than if you had choosen to use methanol. And the flame is a nice pretty blueish when you are inside. Try seeing that in direct sunlight, guess what...you basically can't.
2. If you think underhood temps aren't up around 140 when you're sitting in direct sunlight with the engine running then you've apparently never opened your hood. I'm wondering just what the heck you think happens to the vapors after it evaporates??? They must magically disappear since you seem to think that the vapor isn't MORE likely to ignite.
3. If he ran just water he could come back to events, but apparenly he went out of his way to say that he would continue to ignore the rules and the safety concerns and has been asked to never return. That's the way it works, those who put forth the effort to make the event run and run safely get to make the decisions.
4. Think what you want about my information on the flammability of alcohol mixes the simple truth remains that it is NOT allowed by the rules and that every safety steward I've talked to agrees that it IS a safety risk after investigating the facts of the issue. I don't think you have a bomb under your hood, just a flash fire waiting to happen. Systems built into cars, like the fuel system, are not the subject at hand and have absolutely no bearing on this discussion at all.
As a safety steward I'm MUCH more likely after this thread and the one on SCCAForums and the one on EvoM to look at any car I see with water injection. Just open the tank and give a little sniff and all those who fail to understand that it IS a safety issue and not run alcohol at an autocross will be asked to leave the event. Guess what: my decision as a safety steward on the safety of you as a driver or your car is not something you can appeal or argue even if you think I'm wrong. Believe me that the people kicked out for driving like asses didn't think they were a safety issue either.
You've said yourself that you have the ability with your system to dial back timing a bit or dial back boost a bit and not have to run alcohol at all. Why not just do that and fall into line with the rules and with the desires of the safety stewards?
2. If you think underhood temps aren't up around 140 when you're sitting in direct sunlight with the engine running then you've apparently never opened your hood. I'm wondering just what the heck you think happens to the vapors after it evaporates??? They must magically disappear since you seem to think that the vapor isn't MORE likely to ignite.
3. If he ran just water he could come back to events, but apparenly he went out of his way to say that he would continue to ignore the rules and the safety concerns and has been asked to never return. That's the way it works, those who put forth the effort to make the event run and run safely get to make the decisions.
4. Think what you want about my information on the flammability of alcohol mixes the simple truth remains that it is NOT allowed by the rules and that every safety steward I've talked to agrees that it IS a safety risk after investigating the facts of the issue. I don't think you have a bomb under your hood, just a flash fire waiting to happen. Systems built into cars, like the fuel system, are not the subject at hand and have absolutely no bearing on this discussion at all.
As a safety steward I'm MUCH more likely after this thread and the one on SCCAForums and the one on EvoM to look at any car I see with water injection. Just open the tank and give a little sniff and all those who fail to understand that it IS a safety issue and not run alcohol at an autocross will be asked to leave the event. Guess what: my decision as a safety steward on the safety of you as a driver or your car is not something you can appeal or argue even if you think I'm wrong. Believe me that the people kicked out for driving like asses didn't think they were a safety issue either.
You've said yourself that you have the ability with your system to dial back timing a bit or dial back boost a bit and not have to run alcohol at all. Why not just do that and fall into line with the rules and with the desires of the safety stewards?
| ChrisW | 03-13-2006 10:25 AM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]
3. If he ran just water he could come back to events, but apparenly he went out of his way to say that he would continue to ignore the rules and the safety concerns and has been asked to never return. That's the way it works, those who put forth the effort to make the event run and run safely get to make the decisions.
You've said yourself that you have the ability with your system to dial back timing a bit or dial back boost a bit and not have to run alcohol at all. Why not just do that and fall into line with the rules and with the desires of the safety stewards?[/QUOTE]
This guy in the evo can't dial back the setting to run water instead of alcky due to his dynoflashed ECU.
Now if he had a UTEC or an XEDE, or some full ECU replacement, then that would be a possiblility.
Good threads of interest on this subject and the individual with the EVO
[url="http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=186713"]http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=186713[/url]
Good details on how different water injection is as opposed to alcky in this thread.
[url="http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/180821/ShowThread.aspx"]http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/180821/ShowThread.aspx[/url]
3. If he ran just water he could come back to events, but apparenly he went out of his way to say that he would continue to ignore the rules and the safety concerns and has been asked to never return. That's the way it works, those who put forth the effort to make the event run and run safely get to make the decisions.
You've said yourself that you have the ability with your system to dial back timing a bit or dial back boost a bit and not have to run alcohol at all. Why not just do that and fall into line with the rules and with the desires of the safety stewards?[/QUOTE]
This guy in the evo can't dial back the setting to run water instead of alcky due to his dynoflashed ECU.
Now if he had a UTEC or an XEDE, or some full ECU replacement, then that would be a possiblility.
Good threads of interest on this subject and the individual with the EVO
[url="http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=186713"]http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=186713[/url]
Good details on how different water injection is as opposed to alcky in this thread.
[url="http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/180821/ShowThread.aspx"]http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/180821/ShowThread.aspx[/url]
| ScoobyTodd | 03-13-2006 12:27 PM |
This really isn't a big deal. People in competition should abide by the rules and if the Evo guy is upset he needs to change his tune to something adjustable. Heck, with something like the AP you could run:
--stock
--STU-legal bump in timing (something tuned 1-3 gears only maybe with higher octane if you wanted)
--Street which includes meth/alky, etc and any boost you want
--BSP with bump in boost and use of straight water.
The only thing I'll say is that if a safety steward sniffs ANY alcohol in a tank and then flags the car/drive I think that's pushing it. Even if someone were to flush the tank after using the tank primarily as a 50/50 mix tank with alcohol it will still have the strong odor. Additionally, if I were to run a water inj only map I would still keep a tiny bit of rubbing alcohol in the tank (1/4 of cup for example) to keep bacteria down and keep the whole system clean.
I think the important thing is that people are doing knee-jerk reactions of something like an odor test. On the flip side though, anyone wanting to compete needs to do it safely and within rules both for fair competition and the safety of not only themselves, but all involved.
--stock
--STU-legal bump in timing (something tuned 1-3 gears only maybe with higher octane if you wanted)
--Street which includes meth/alky, etc and any boost you want
--BSP with bump in boost and use of straight water.
The only thing I'll say is that if a safety steward sniffs ANY alcohol in a tank and then flags the car/drive I think that's pushing it. Even if someone were to flush the tank after using the tank primarily as a 50/50 mix tank with alcohol it will still have the strong odor. Additionally, if I were to run a water inj only map I would still keep a tiny bit of rubbing alcohol in the tank (1/4 of cup for example) to keep bacteria down and keep the whole system clean.
I think the important thing is that people are doing knee-jerk reactions of something like an odor test. On the flip side though, anyone wanting to compete needs to do it safely and within rules both for fair competition and the safety of not only themselves, but all involved.
| KC | 03-13-2006 01:41 PM |
[QUOTE=ScoobyTodd]The only thing I'll say is that if a safety steward sniffs ANY alcohol in a tank and then flags the car/drive I think that's pushing it. Even if someone were to flush the tank after using the tank primarily as a 50/50 mix tank with alcohol it will still have the strong odor. Additionally, if I were to run a water inj only map I would still keep a tiny bit of rubbing alcohol in the tank (1/4 of cup for example) to keep bacteria down and keep the whole system clean.[/QUOTE] All that said, how can it be tested at an event?
| AUTOwrXER | 03-13-2006 06:14 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]All that said, how can it be tested at an event?[/QUOTE]
Pull a sample. Retreat to bio-chem lab onsite (commonly called the porta-john). Sniff sample. If alcohol scent is stronger than the other smells, DSQ protestee.
:devil:
Pull a sample. Retreat to bio-chem lab onsite (commonly called the porta-john). Sniff sample. If alcohol scent is stronger than the other smells, DSQ protestee.
:devil:
| ScoobyTodd | 03-13-2006 06:25 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]All that said, how can it be tested at an event?[/QUOTE]
Have the person take a swig and breathalyze!! :D
J/k, actually here are a couple ideas:
--I'm sure there are some litmus-type paper tests that could be used
--verifying credibility of source and what they tell you the ratio of alcohol to water is
--Taking a sample and putting a propane torch to it to simulate extreme temps and see if it lights
--Taking a sample and sniffing it away from the container.
It's tough, but I think the key is the character of the person in question and what they tell you. After all, we are adults here and if I tell you I'm running 99% water then I think as a safety steward part of your decision comes from the person telling you what they're running. If you don't believe them or feel it's a major safety concern try one of the tests above.
Have the person take a swig and breathalyze!! :D
J/k, actually here are a couple ideas:
--I'm sure there are some litmus-type paper tests that could be used
--verifying credibility of source and what they tell you the ratio of alcohol to water is
--Taking a sample and putting a propane torch to it to simulate extreme temps and see if it lights
--Taking a sample and sniffing it away from the container.
It's tough, but I think the key is the character of the person in question and what they tell you. After all, we are adults here and if I tell you I'm running 99% water then I think as a safety steward part of your decision comes from the person telling you what they're running. If you don't believe them or feel it's a major safety concern try one of the tests above.
| silver arrow | 03-13-2006 06:57 PM |
If the rules say you can run water, then you can run water. If someone think your cheating then it's up to the protester adn the stewart to prove. If they can't then they have to assume you aren't cheating.
| Davenow | 03-13-2006 07:11 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]1. OK, so you're using denatured alcohol (ETHANOL with additives usually methanol or isoproponal in case you didn't know) and my examples of flammable liquor are even more on target than if you had choosen to use methanol. And the flame is a nice pretty blueish when you are inside. Try seeing that in direct sunlight, guess what...you basically can't.
[color=red]IT DOES NOT IGNITE, WHAT PART OF THAT DONT YOU UNDERSTAND?? i HAVE SPILLED IT ALL OVER MY HOT ENGINE (well, the pass side head/manifold anyway) AND IT DID NOT IGNITE.[/color]
2. If you think underhood temps aren't up around 140 when you're sitting in direct sunlight with the engine running then you've apparently never opened your hood. I'm wondering just what the heck you think happens to the vapors after it evaporates??? They must magically disappear since you seem to think that the vapor isn't MORE likely to ignite.
[color=red]The underhood temps may be over 140, but the mixture isnt hitting 140. You would have to sit idling for a LONG time with the hood closed to heat it up that much. [/color]
3. If he ran just water he could come back to events, but apparenly he went out of his way to say that he would continue to ignore the rules and the safety concerns and has been asked to never return. That's the way it works, those who put forth the effort to make the event run and run safely get to make the decisions.
[color=red]See also:evo guys tend to be douches like that :lol:[/color]
4. Think what you want about my information on the flammability of alcohol mixes the simple truth remains that it is NOT allowed by the rules and that every safety steward I've talked to agrees that it IS a safety risk after investigating the facts of the issue. I don't think you have a bomb under your hood, just a flash fire waiting to happen. Systems built into cars, like the fuel system, are not the subject at hand and have absolutely no bearing on this discussion at all.
[color=red]But the fuel systems in cars are no more or less dangerous. If you get in an accident that ruptures that container, you are also most likely going to rupture the fuel system.[/color]
[color=#ff0000]When was the last report of an alch injected car catching fire?? I challenge any of you to find even one.[/color]
As a safety steward I'm MUCH more likely after this thread and the one on SCCAForums and the one on EvoM to look at any car I see with water injection. Just open the tank and give a little sniff and all those who fail to understand that it IS a safety issue and not run alcohol at an autocross will be asked to leave the event. Guess what: my decision as a safety steward on the safety of you as a driver or your car is not something you can appeal or argue even if you think I'm wrong. Believe me that the people kicked out for driving like asses didn't think they were a safety issue either.
[color=red]But we CAN petition to get some actual rules on the subject, and if it passes, tell people like you where to stick your opinions on its safety:p .... I would hope the SCCA people would not be as ignorant and would base their opinions on facts instead of completely unfounded ideas. [/color]
You've said yourself that you have the ability with your system to dial back timing a bit or dial back boost a bit and not have to run alcohol at all. Why not just do that and fall into line with the rules and with the desires of the safety stewards?
[color=#ff0000]Why not make everyone run their cars bone stock? Why allow people to drive green cars??? Because safety issues need to be based on FACTS not opinions. [/color]
[/QUOTE]
See the red for my thoughts on it.
Also, go ahead, find me one alch injected car that has had a fire.
Ill just get a fuel cell and run a class that allows an additional fuel tank and braided lines. Who gives a rats ass.
[color=red]IT DOES NOT IGNITE, WHAT PART OF THAT DONT YOU UNDERSTAND?? i HAVE SPILLED IT ALL OVER MY HOT ENGINE (well, the pass side head/manifold anyway) AND IT DID NOT IGNITE.[/color]
2. If you think underhood temps aren't up around 140 when you're sitting in direct sunlight with the engine running then you've apparently never opened your hood. I'm wondering just what the heck you think happens to the vapors after it evaporates??? They must magically disappear since you seem to think that the vapor isn't MORE likely to ignite.
[color=red]The underhood temps may be over 140, but the mixture isnt hitting 140. You would have to sit idling for a LONG time with the hood closed to heat it up that much. [/color]
3. If he ran just water he could come back to events, but apparenly he went out of his way to say that he would continue to ignore the rules and the safety concerns and has been asked to never return. That's the way it works, those who put forth the effort to make the event run and run safely get to make the decisions.
[color=red]See also:evo guys tend to be douches like that :lol:[/color]
4. Think what you want about my information on the flammability of alcohol mixes the simple truth remains that it is NOT allowed by the rules and that every safety steward I've talked to agrees that it IS a safety risk after investigating the facts of the issue. I don't think you have a bomb under your hood, just a flash fire waiting to happen. Systems built into cars, like the fuel system, are not the subject at hand and have absolutely no bearing on this discussion at all.
[color=red]But the fuel systems in cars are no more or less dangerous. If you get in an accident that ruptures that container, you are also most likely going to rupture the fuel system.[/color]
[color=#ff0000]When was the last report of an alch injected car catching fire?? I challenge any of you to find even one.[/color]
As a safety steward I'm MUCH more likely after this thread and the one on SCCAForums and the one on EvoM to look at any car I see with water injection. Just open the tank and give a little sniff and all those who fail to understand that it IS a safety issue and not run alcohol at an autocross will be asked to leave the event. Guess what: my decision as a safety steward on the safety of you as a driver or your car is not something you can appeal or argue even if you think I'm wrong. Believe me that the people kicked out for driving like asses didn't think they were a safety issue either.
[color=red]But we CAN petition to get some actual rules on the subject, and if it passes, tell people like you where to stick your opinions on its safety:p .... I would hope the SCCA people would not be as ignorant and would base their opinions on facts instead of completely unfounded ideas. [/color]
You've said yourself that you have the ability with your system to dial back timing a bit or dial back boost a bit and not have to run alcohol at all. Why not just do that and fall into line with the rules and with the desires of the safety stewards?
[color=#ff0000]Why not make everyone run their cars bone stock? Why allow people to drive green cars??? Because safety issues need to be based on FACTS not opinions. [/color]
[/QUOTE]
See the red for my thoughts on it.
Also, go ahead, find me one alch injected car that has had a fire.
Ill just get a fuel cell and run a class that allows an additional fuel tank and braided lines. Who gives a rats ass.
| Davenow | 03-13-2006 07:15 PM |
[QUOTE=ScoobyTodd]
--[b]Taking a sample and putting a propane torch to it to simulate extreme temps and see if it lights[/b]
.[/QUOTE]
I can do that to a 50/50 mix of alch/water and it will not ignite. In fact, I have.
--[b]Taking a sample and putting a propane torch to it to simulate extreme temps and see if it lights[/b]
.[/QUOTE]
I can do that to a 50/50 mix of alch/water and it will not ignite. In fact, I have.
| ScoobyTodd | 03-13-2006 08:09 PM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]I can do that to a 50/50 mix of alch/water and it will not ignite. In fact, I have.[/QUOTE]
And see, that's the thing. That's why I believe a 50/50 mix is safe, but per the rules, gives an unfair advantage vs. water only. That would be the protest I would give given someone running water-only and 50/50.
Don't get me wrong, I'll run 50/50 on the street all day, but I'll probably just 100% exclude it for STU running.
And see, that's the thing. That's why I believe a 50/50 mix is safe, but per the rules, gives an unfair advantage vs. water only. That would be the protest I would give given someone running water-only and 50/50.
Don't get me wrong, I'll run 50/50 on the street all day, but I'll probably just 100% exclude it for STU running.
| silver arrow | 03-13-2006 08:48 PM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]I can do that to a 50/50 mix of alch/water and it will not ignite. In fact, I have.[/QUOTE]
fire...fire.......insert Beavis and Butthead laugh here :banana:
fire...fire.......insert Beavis and Butthead laugh here :banana:
| jcroy66 | 03-14-2006 07:45 AM |
[QUOTE=Davenow][color=red]I would hope the SCCA people would not be as ignorant and would base their opinions on facts instead of completely unfounded ideas.[/color][/QUOTE]You do understand that we are ALL the "SCCA people", right? It's a member-driven club. You don't like how something works? Volunteer. The SEB, SSSs, SSC (safety steward committee) are all volunteer positions and are always looking for recruits.
| KC | 03-14-2006 08:42 AM |
[QUOTE=Davenow]See the red for my thoughts on it.
Also, go ahead, find me one alch injected car that has had a fire.
Ill just get a fuel cell and run a class that allows an additional fuel tank and braided lines. Who gives a rats ass.[/QUOTE]
Dave,
You're being a dick. :) (I mean that in the nicest way of course, honey.)
Here's the deal. It's at best, [I]questionable[/I] if it is allowed at all per the rules. Things in question (like alkey) that *could* pose a threat to the safety of an event or competitor, whether they in real world are a threat or not, must be reviewed carefully by those that have written and make the rules on the SEB then BOD. Things like that take time.
The SCCA errs on the side of SAFETY 1st. You know this, I know this, most also know this (and is also the reason some people don't like the organization because things seem to move at a snails pace).
You haven't seen a car ignite. Great. Have you seen cars flip at an auto-x? I have. One of the other fluids other than a ruptured coolant line is windshield washer fluid. Did a fire break out? No. However, what's to stop someone from mixing up the dilution of 50/50 and go just a tad higher? *nothing* THAT is dangerous when someone goes 'eh... what's the diff?' with no regard to the rules. What happens now?
And about sitting for a long period of time... you very well can remember some long times in grid at Devens when there's re-runs and timing errors taking making a long time between runs.... some people do leave their engine running... mmmm A/C.
Get the facts to the SEB, let them review it, and then let them issue a statement in a Fastrack to clarify the rule. Things like this take time.
In the meantime, the Safety steward DOES have the last say at an event, whether you like it or not, whether they have all the facts or not. It's indisputable because they have to make sure the event is run safely. Without guidance from the SEB on this issue, the SSS has to do what they think best.
Give it a couple months and keep writing to doug gill.
--kC
Also, go ahead, find me one alch injected car that has had a fire.
Ill just get a fuel cell and run a class that allows an additional fuel tank and braided lines. Who gives a rats ass.[/QUOTE]
Dave,
You're being a dick. :) (I mean that in the nicest way of course, honey.)
Here's the deal. It's at best, [I]questionable[/I] if it is allowed at all per the rules. Things in question (like alkey) that *could* pose a threat to the safety of an event or competitor, whether they in real world are a threat or not, must be reviewed carefully by those that have written and make the rules on the SEB then BOD. Things like that take time.
The SCCA errs on the side of SAFETY 1st. You know this, I know this, most also know this (and is also the reason some people don't like the organization because things seem to move at a snails pace).
You haven't seen a car ignite. Great. Have you seen cars flip at an auto-x? I have. One of the other fluids other than a ruptured coolant line is windshield washer fluid. Did a fire break out? No. However, what's to stop someone from mixing up the dilution of 50/50 and go just a tad higher? *nothing* THAT is dangerous when someone goes 'eh... what's the diff?' with no regard to the rules. What happens now?
And about sitting for a long period of time... you very well can remember some long times in grid at Devens when there's re-runs and timing errors taking making a long time between runs.... some people do leave their engine running... mmmm A/C.
Get the facts to the SEB, let them review it, and then let them issue a statement in a Fastrack to clarify the rule. Things like this take time.
In the meantime, the Safety steward DOES have the last say at an event, whether you like it or not, whether they have all the facts or not. It's indisputable because they have to make sure the event is run safely. Without guidance from the SEB on this issue, the SSS has to do what they think best.
Give it a couple months and keep writing to doug gill.
--kC
| ScoobyTodd | 03-14-2006 08:46 AM |
^^agreed
| bschork | 04-02-2006 06:30 PM |
Just wondering if anyone has heard anything more about this?
| PhilC | 04-03-2006 01:47 PM |
Last I heard the SEB had routed the question to the solo safety committee for review before making any further considerations on any possible rule changes\clarifications that would allow alcohol injection in any percentage at all.
At this time from what I hear no one has actually made the formal request to have the rule changed so the SEB is just being proactive assuming that one of you guys who wants alcohol injection will eventually get to writing that letter.
Marcus did tell Jen that the solo safety committee was looking into the issue and that they would appreciate input from active solo safety stewards.
So basically for now use water only for autocross, if you want that to be changed write a letter and see if you can get it changed for the 2007 season.
At this time from what I hear no one has actually made the formal request to have the rule changed so the SEB is just being proactive assuming that one of you guys who wants alcohol injection will eventually get to writing that letter.
Marcus did tell Jen that the solo safety committee was looking into the issue and that they would appreciate input from active solo safety stewards.
So basically for now use water only for autocross, if you want that to be changed write a letter and see if you can get it changed for the 2007 season.
| jcroy66 | 04-20-2006 04:24 PM |
[url="http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/06-5-fastrack.pdf"]http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/06-5-fastrack.pdf[/url]
page 19, Solo Technical Bulletin (so effective immediately):
[quote]1) All: Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles unless it is specified for this use by the OEM.[/quote]
page 19, Solo Technical Bulletin (so effective immediately):
[quote]1) All: Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles unless it is specified for this use by the OEM.[/quote]
| PhilC | 04-20-2006 04:25 PM |
May FasTrack gives your official answer. "All: Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles unless it is specified for this use by the OEM."
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