| o2sys | 12-22-2005 07:01 PM |
STI and EVO the only rally based cars?
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So in WRC such comapanies like Citroen, Ford, Skoda, Pegeot and etc compete....just for the hell of it went and visited like two of those manufactures site.....and found no cars that were rally based or any of that heritage....so how come subaru and mitsu are the only companies that have rally based cars? or if im wrong tell me so
| WRXMaster | 12-22-2005 07:19 PM |
[QUOTE=o2sys]So in WRC such comapanies like Citroen, Ford, Skoda, Pegeot and etc compete....just for the hell of it went and visited like two of those manufactures site.....and found no cars that were rally based or any of that heritage....so how come subaru and mitsu are the only companies that have rally based cars? or if im wrong tell me so[/QUOTE]
Toyota had the awd alltrac celica ... Ford used to have the Escort Cosworth
You will find that manufatures today are pretty dumb with their marketing and products. They think that a tube frame / 20 year old technology race car is going to help them sell cars... Subaru of America does a poor job at marketing the STI with rally. Just look how much $$ they are dumping into a tube frame drag car? ***! I used to work for subaru and the biggest complaints from dealerships was wrx/sti owners trying to drag race their cars and breaking the tranny. I have no clue why manufactures are not building rally related/rally cars ????
1. All rally cars have to be street legal - same as your road car
2. They are actually built off the real shell and use the stock block
Toyota had the awd alltrac celica ... Ford used to have the Escort Cosworth
You will find that manufatures today are pretty dumb with their marketing and products. They think that a tube frame / 20 year old technology race car is going to help them sell cars... Subaru of America does a poor job at marketing the STI with rally. Just look how much $$ they are dumping into a tube frame drag car? ***! I used to work for subaru and the biggest complaints from dealerships was wrx/sti owners trying to drag race their cars and breaking the tranny. I have no clue why manufactures are not building rally related/rally cars ????
1. All rally cars have to be street legal - same as your road car
2. They are actually built off the real shell and use the stock block
| o2sys | 12-22-2005 07:26 PM |
i know ford has their Focus RS (not is US) which i believe is turbocharged and maybe AWD but other than that still currently subaru and mitsu are the only ones.....SOA does do a pretty bad job in marketing the STI/WRX but that could also be since WRC and rallying is just starting to get popular....and thats just too
| roofis | 12-22-2005 07:40 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXMaster]I have no clue why manufactures are not building rally related/rally cars[/QUOTE]
well rally in the U.S isn't too big. however it's supposedly the biggest form of motorsport in the world, so the cars and event coverage we see is only a small percentage of what's really out there. plus there are tons of popular cars (like Clios and Xsaras, yes the Fabia and Octavia too) used for rally that aren't available stateside. when people in the U.S. think rally, if the WRC doesn't come to mind as the only form of it, they muster thoughts of an Evo or STI plowing through the forest rather than a Golf winding through paved country roads.
to the original poster, almost any production car can be turned into a rally car. there are FC RX7s and E30 BMWs, even old Porsche 911s braving their way through the mud. it's just much more rare than awd or fwd cars. there are certain traits of a car vs. other characteristics that make it more favorable for rally or any form of production based motorsport. then there are the rules of what a novice rallyist can start competing in, then there are the costs..etc. etc.
tis what i think at least.
wanna see little econobox euro cars going balls out on 15 foot wide public roads? [URL=http://paradise.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=91728][B]click link[/B] [/URL] and download videos. if you're into rally, well worth your time. now imagine if we had [I]that[/I] in the united states...
well rally in the U.S isn't too big. however it's supposedly the biggest form of motorsport in the world, so the cars and event coverage we see is only a small percentage of what's really out there. plus there are tons of popular cars (like Clios and Xsaras, yes the Fabia and Octavia too) used for rally that aren't available stateside. when people in the U.S. think rally, if the WRC doesn't come to mind as the only form of it, they muster thoughts of an Evo or STI plowing through the forest rather than a Golf winding through paved country roads.
to the original poster, almost any production car can be turned into a rally car. there are FC RX7s and E30 BMWs, even old Porsche 911s braving their way through the mud. it's just much more rare than awd or fwd cars. there are certain traits of a car vs. other characteristics that make it more favorable for rally or any form of production based motorsport. then there are the rules of what a novice rallyist can start competing in, then there are the costs..etc. etc.
tis what i think at least.
wanna see little econobox euro cars going balls out on 15 foot wide public roads? [URL=http://paradise.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=91728][B]click link[/B] [/URL] and download videos. if you're into rally, well worth your time. now imagine if we had [I]that[/I] in the united states...
| Calamity Jesus | 12-22-2005 08:19 PM |
Why does Subaru need to market the STi as a rally car in the US? Everyone who cares already knows.
As for drag racing vs rally.. the warranty claims would be much worse if everyone was attempting to treat the STi like a rally car. Rally cars damage more parts per event than any drag racer,.. and out of the box, the STi is a street car.
As for drag racing vs rally.. the warranty claims would be much worse if everyone was attempting to treat the STi like a rally car. Rally cars damage more parts per event than any drag racer,.. and out of the box, the STi is a street car.
| REX8 | 12-22-2005 08:22 PM |
[QUOTE=o2sys]So in WRC such comapanies like Citroen, Ford, Skoda, Pegeot and etc compete....just for the hell of it went and visited like two of those manufactures site.....and found no cars that were rally based or any of that heritage....so how come subaru and mitsu are the only companies that have rally based cars? or if im wrong tell me so[/QUOTE]
Its not that are cars are more rally based than the others, Subaru just tries to sell them as such. As its been said, Rally isn't popular everywhere, so marketing as a rally car might not yield positive results.
Its not that are cars are more rally based than the others, Subaru just tries to sell them as such. As its been said, Rally isn't popular everywhere, so marketing as a rally car might not yield positive results.
| Porter | 12-22-2005 08:31 PM |
I think what he means is that the drivetrain and chassis are basically identical to the rally vehicles, at least the Group N cars.
Subaru and Mitsubishi are currently the only manufacturers selling products that share the same basic engine, drivetrain layout, and chassis characteristics as their WRC cars.
Subaru and Mitsubishi are currently the only manufacturers selling products that share the same basic engine, drivetrain layout, and chassis characteristics as their WRC cars.
| leaknoil | 12-22-2005 08:53 PM |
[QUOTE=o2sys]So in WRC such comapanies like Citroen, Ford, Skoda, Pegeot and etc compete....just for the hell of it went and visited like two of those manufactures site.....and found no cars that were rally based or any of that heritage....so how come subaru and mitsu are the only companies that have rally based cars? or if im wrong tell me so[/QUOTE]
Rally is huge in Europe. Just having the manufacturers name mentioned when they win is great advertising there. Just like the American companies do in NASCAR. Can't buy a Nextel Cup car to cruise to the market in either. You probably wouldn't want to either.
Rally is huge in Europe. Just having the manufacturers name mentioned when they win is great advertising there. Just like the American companies do in NASCAR. Can't buy a Nextel Cup car to cruise to the market in either. You probably wouldn't want to either.
| WRXMaster | 12-22-2005 09:23 PM |
[QUOTE=leaknoil]Rally is huge in Europe. Just having the manufacturers name mentioned when they win is great advertising there. Just like the American companies do in NASCAR. Can't buy a Nextel Cup car to cruise to the market in either. You probably wouldn't want to either.[/QUOTE]
Actually rally is a better platform then Nascar ... When they win you can actually compare a street car to a rally car ... They are pretty similar and you can go to a dealership and associate it... Europe has more manufactures then in the US... Nascar you just normally get brand recoginition "you cant pick up a two door ford tourus with stickers for headlights.
I used to work for 3+ dealerships as a marketing advisor. We never used marketing material that subaru USA gave us. We found out we had more customer feedback from showing rally videos and other performance material. A example of subaru usa stupidity - They wanted us to compare the Outback to the covered wagons of the wild west " we had posters that said new covered wagon with a picture of the outback" I cant belive they pay people to think that up! You would be suprised how about 80% of the potential sti owners knew about rally and could name their lead driver.... Anyway back to the subject ... Anyway when your marketing your product to many different countries/cultures you need brand recognition.. but for example nascar - GM spend millions for $$ to advertise the monte carlo "horrible product /which has horrible sales" ... well you get people who say thats great brand recognition?? Well if you live in america you know Ford/GM/Dodge ... you dont need to see tube frame cars to help you remember that! They wonder why they cant sell cars! For example the peugot 206- won the wrc championship ... It looks identical to the road going car... same year its the number 1 selling car in Europe.... I am just ranting because rally is a great advertising tool to help a manufature sell cars.
Here are some example of NEW cars that are rally related.. similar drive trains/motors
Ford Fiesta- JWRC car
Citreon C2 - JWRC car
Suzuki Swift- JWRC car
Fiat Punto - JWRC car
Subaru STI - Group N
Mitsubishi Evo- Group N
Actually rally is a better platform then Nascar ... When they win you can actually compare a street car to a rally car ... They are pretty similar and you can go to a dealership and associate it... Europe has more manufactures then in the US... Nascar you just normally get brand recoginition "you cant pick up a two door ford tourus with stickers for headlights.
I used to work for 3+ dealerships as a marketing advisor. We never used marketing material that subaru USA gave us. We found out we had more customer feedback from showing rally videos and other performance material. A example of subaru usa stupidity - They wanted us to compare the Outback to the covered wagons of the wild west " we had posters that said new covered wagon with a picture of the outback" I cant belive they pay people to think that up! You would be suprised how about 80% of the potential sti owners knew about rally and could name their lead driver.... Anyway back to the subject ... Anyway when your marketing your product to many different countries/cultures you need brand recognition.. but for example nascar - GM spend millions for $$ to advertise the monte carlo "horrible product /which has horrible sales" ... well you get people who say thats great brand recognition?? Well if you live in america you know Ford/GM/Dodge ... you dont need to see tube frame cars to help you remember that! They wonder why they cant sell cars! For example the peugot 206- won the wrc championship ... It looks identical to the road going car... same year its the number 1 selling car in Europe.... I am just ranting because rally is a great advertising tool to help a manufature sell cars.
Here are some example of NEW cars that are rally related.. similar drive trains/motors
Ford Fiesta- JWRC car
Citreon C2 - JWRC car
Suzuki Swift- JWRC car
Fiat Punto - JWRC car
Subaru STI - Group N
Mitsubishi Evo- Group N
| nKoan | 12-22-2005 09:41 PM |
They don't because WR Car spec doesn't require it. Starting in 1997, it was okay to take a 2wd N/A car and convert it to AWD and forced induction. The FIA did this to get more manufacturers involved in the sport. Before, there were homologation rules for Group A cars to have their road going counterparts at least be FI and AWD (if that is what they wanted to compete with). With the rule change, those compainies would probably have never gotten into the WRC because they didn't want to spend the money to make these cars for production. Heck, even Ford stopped selling their FI/AWD cars when the WRCar spec came out. The Focus RS (as someone mentioned earlier) is Turbo'd, but not AWD. The elusive Focus RS Cosworth, that may or may not come out (only in Europe likely) should have AWD though.
| Homemade WRX | 12-22-2005 11:05 PM |
[QUOTE=o2sys]i know ford has their Focus RS (not is US) which i believe is turbocharged and maybe AWD[/QUOTE]
The focus RS is FWD...sadly
they should have never stopped making the escort cossie...and toyota should have never dumped the all trac celica...
now look..the escort and celica are gone...
I think ford still makes the zx2... :confused:
I vote to bring back homoligation!!!
The focus RS is FWD...sadly
they should have never stopped making the escort cossie...and toyota should have never dumped the all trac celica...
now look..the escort and celica are gone...
I think ford still makes the zx2... :confused:
I vote to bring back homoligation!!!
| REXLR8 | 12-22-2005 11:24 PM |
i vote bringing back the lancia delta intergrale and bringing them to the states along with escort cosworth's. see alot of the car makers have already offered a rally car esque road car in they're history, but for some reason they never keep them in the lineup :mad:
| o2sys | 12-23-2005 01:09 AM |
[QUOTE=Porter]I think what he means is that the drivetrain and chassis are basically identical to the rally vehicles, at least the Group N cars.
Subaru and Mitsubishi are currently the only manufacturers selling products that share the same basic engine, drivetrain layout, and chassis characteristics as their WRC cars.[/QUOTE]
BINGO!
Subaru and Mitsubishi are currently the only manufacturers selling products that share the same basic engine, drivetrain layout, and chassis characteristics as their WRC cars.[/QUOTE]
BINGO!
| WRXedUSA | 12-23-2005 02:03 AM |
Group A or Group N??
Most all rally cars are derived/based/share in common qualities of their road going counterpart.
From Proton Pert to the RS200, Quattro Sport to Delta Integrale..
Most all rally cars are derived/based/share in common qualities of their road going counterpart.
From Proton Pert to the RS200, Quattro Sport to Delta Integrale..
| bfodle | 12-23-2005 08:06 AM |
What about the old Hyundais? LOL!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:
| AlbaScoob | 12-23-2005 08:41 AM |
[QUOTE=o2sys]i know ford has their Focus RS (not is US) which i believe is turbocharged and maybe AWD but other than that still currently subaru and mitsu are the only ones.....SOA does do a pretty bad job in marketing the STI/WRX but that could also be since WRC and rallying is just starting to get popular....and thats just too[/QUOTE]
the Focus RS is 2.0l Turbo but FWD, the biggest mistake they made with that car
The public wanted another 'Scort Cossie although the RS handles incredibly well for a FWD turbo car.
On another note, someone mentioned the Celica GT AWD; there was also Mazda 323 GTR, Golf G60 Rallye, Integrale and of course the Quattro.
However a GpA/N WRC rally based car secures such a small market that Euro manufacturers have had no interest in the past few years of going to the trouble of marketing such a car. High theft and insurance rates in the UK and mainland Europe killed the Cosworth in the 90's and most manufacturers followed suit by detuning their line of "sports" cars. During the 90's many manufacturers shifted focus onto F2 Maxi kit cars and now JWRC and produced FWD rally based/limited edition cars. I owned a homologated Peugeot 106 Rallye for example. There was also the Seat Ibiza, Peugeot 306 6sp and many more. Now Ford finally have the Fiesta ST that replaces the famous XR2.
Only in the last 4-5 years have we seen more aggressive high powered compact sports cars in Europe again.
Having owned a 3dr Audi A3 Quattro I always thought it would make such a great rally car. I hope Audi come back into WRC again with the facelifted version. Then again maybe a US brand such as Pontiac could step forward with a rallye concept...
the Focus RS is 2.0l Turbo but FWD, the biggest mistake they made with that car
The public wanted another 'Scort Cossie although the RS handles incredibly well for a FWD turbo car.
On another note, someone mentioned the Celica GT AWD; there was also Mazda 323 GTR, Golf G60 Rallye, Integrale and of course the Quattro.
However a GpA/N WRC rally based car secures such a small market that Euro manufacturers have had no interest in the past few years of going to the trouble of marketing such a car. High theft and insurance rates in the UK and mainland Europe killed the Cosworth in the 90's and most manufacturers followed suit by detuning their line of "sports" cars. During the 90's many manufacturers shifted focus onto F2 Maxi kit cars and now JWRC and produced FWD rally based/limited edition cars. I owned a homologated Peugeot 106 Rallye for example. There was also the Seat Ibiza, Peugeot 306 6sp and many more. Now Ford finally have the Fiesta ST that replaces the famous XR2.
Only in the last 4-5 years have we seen more aggressive high powered compact sports cars in Europe again.
Having owned a 3dr Audi A3 Quattro I always thought it would make such a great rally car. I hope Audi come back into WRC again with the facelifted version. Then again maybe a US brand such as Pontiac could step forward with a rallye concept...
| kfoote | 12-23-2005 08:48 AM |
One of my coworkerd had a *edit* Ford Escort Cosworth for a while.
The Audi 90 Quattro was highly rally based, though was not marketed as such in North America.
And the Toyota Celica All-Trac was mentioned earlier.
The STi and EVO (and WRX) are the only cars currently sold in the US that were designed as a platform for a Rally car first, but they're certainly not the only ones that have ever been sold in the US.
The Audi 90 Quattro was highly rally based, though was not marketed as such in North America.
And the Toyota Celica All-Trac was mentioned earlier.
The STi and EVO (and WRX) are the only cars currently sold in the US that were designed as a platform for a Rally car first, but they're certainly not the only ones that have ever been sold in the US.
| AlbaScoob | 12-23-2005 08:57 AM |
[QUOTE=kfoote]One of my coworkerd had a Ford RS200 for a while.
The Audi 90 Quattro was highly rally based, though was not marketed as such in North America.
And the Toyota Celica All-Trac was mentioned earlier.
The STi and EVO (and WRX) are the only cars currently sold in the US that were designed as a platform for a Rally car first, but they're certainly not the only ones that have ever been sold in the US.[/QUOTE]
a GpB RS200????
are you sure?
The Audi 90 Quattro was highly rally based, though was not marketed as such in North America.
And the Toyota Celica All-Trac was mentioned earlier.
The STi and EVO (and WRX) are the only cars currently sold in the US that were designed as a platform for a Rally car first, but they're certainly not the only ones that have ever been sold in the US.[/QUOTE]
a GpB RS200????
are you sure?
| Howl | 12-23-2005 09:43 AM |
I rented a car in Europe recently. When they told me it was a Citreon Xsara, I went Yaaa!. :cool: On my previous trip to Europe I had rented a Peugot 206 and it was a cool little car (even if it was the base model). When I went out to the lot to inspect the Xsara it was a diesel minivan!!! :confused: Flat floor, up-right seating.
In the end it was a good vehicle for my needs, but it had absolutely NO relationship to the rally Xsara. (Apparently there is a car-type Xsara as well, but it's a mid-sized FWD family car :confused: ).
In the end it was a good vehicle for my needs, but it had absolutely NO relationship to the rally Xsara. (Apparently there is a car-type Xsara as well, but it's a mid-sized FWD family car :confused: ).
| chapstien | 12-23-2005 10:10 AM |
I am not so sure that the WRX is a rally-based car as much as leverages the success on it in WRC. A friend of mine sells subaru's, and he told me (I know - Urban Legand style-) that it has always been the engineers' focus to go fast at Nurburgring.
I started thinking about it, and you DO have to spend more to make the WRX a viable rally car that a track car. Completely new suspension, wheel, tires, brakes (gotta have 15's for real rally tires.)
I started thinking about it, and you DO have to spend more to make the WRX a viable rally car that a track car. Completely new suspension, wheel, tires, brakes (gotta have 15's for real rally tires.)
| WRXedUSA | 12-23-2005 10:44 AM |
[QUOTE=AlbaScoob]a GpB RS200????
are you sure?[/QUOTE]
There was one on Ebay a while ago in Miami. I knew that someone had one in the NorthEast too.
are you sure?[/QUOTE]
There was one on Ebay a while ago in Miami. I knew that someone had one in the NorthEast too.
| dwx | 12-23-2005 11:00 AM |
[QUOTE=AlbaScoob]a GpB RS200????
are you sure?[/QUOTE]
There are RS200s that were sold, and then there are a few RS 200 Evolution cars that were sold. The Evo versions were much closer to the specs of the GrpB car, but even then they were not up to that level. The regular RS200 was 250 hp.
are you sure?[/QUOTE]
There are RS200s that were sold, and then there are a few RS 200 Evolution cars that were sold. The Evo versions were much closer to the specs of the GrpB car, but even then they were not up to that level. The regular RS200 was 250 hp.
| solo2wrx | 12-23-2005 11:14 AM |
Some companies really should come out with new AWD rally based cars. The homologation specials of the late 80s and early 90s are getting really hard to find in good shape and then there is not really anything rally based till the WRX was introduced. Now our only choices are the WRX/STI or the Evo. It would be nice to see some variety.
| kfoote | 12-23-2005 11:14 AM |
[QUOTE=AlbaScoob]a GpB RS200????
are you sure?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, edited my post. It was a Ford Escort Cosworth, not an RS200. It still fits the point of my post, though.
are you sure?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, edited my post. It was a Ford Escort Cosworth, not an RS200. It still fits the point of my post, though.
| Homemade WRX | 12-23-2005 02:08 PM |
[QUOTE=dwx]There are RS200s that were sold, and then there are a few RS 200 Evolution cars that were sold. The Evo versions were much closer to the specs of the GrpB car, but even then they were not up to that level. The regular RS200 was 250 hp.[/QUOTE]
there was actually one on ebay last year...if only I had the money...
there was actually one on ebay last year...if only I had the money...
| WRXMaster | 12-23-2005 03:47 PM |
[QUOTE=chapstien]I am not so sure that the WRX is a rally-based car as much as leverages the success on it in WRC. A friend of mine sells subaru's, and he told me (I know - Urban Legand style-) that it has always been the engineers' focus to go fast at Nurburgring.
I started thinking about it, and you DO have to spend more to make the WRX a viable rally car that a track car. Completely new suspension, wheel, tires, brakes (gotta have 15's for real rally tires.)[/QUOTE]
Dont ever listen to subaru usa salesmen ... they tend to pull information out of their @ss.
Rallys are not just on gravel ... they run on tarmac which require 17inch to 18 wheel
The whole purpose of the WRX STI and EVO is to be used for Group N
Inverted struts on the STI were developed because of rally
Top Mount intercooler
Heavy Duty Diffs ect ect ect
It costs more to build a road racing wrx then a rally wrx. Group N is basically a stock sti with saftey equip and different suspension
I started thinking about it, and you DO have to spend more to make the WRX a viable rally car that a track car. Completely new suspension, wheel, tires, brakes (gotta have 15's for real rally tires.)[/QUOTE]
Dont ever listen to subaru usa salesmen ... they tend to pull information out of their @ss.
Rallys are not just on gravel ... they run on tarmac which require 17inch to 18 wheel
The whole purpose of the WRX STI and EVO is to be used for Group N
Inverted struts on the STI were developed because of rally
Top Mount intercooler
Heavy Duty Diffs ect ect ect
It costs more to build a road racing wrx then a rally wrx. Group N is basically a stock sti with saftey equip and different suspension
| Mopho | 12-23-2005 04:42 PM |
The street cars are not rally based, it's the other way around, rally cars are based on the street cars
| Mopho | 12-23-2005 04:45 PM |
[QUOTE=Howl]I rented a car in Europe recently. When they told me it was a Citreon Xsara, I went Yaaa!. :cool: On my previous trip to Europe I had rented a Peugot 206 and it was a cool little car (even if it was the base model). .[/QUOTE]
here is the 206 I had at Catalunya last year
[IMG]http://www.morgansegal.com/206.jpg[/IMG]
It was a blast, and really fast too :lol:
here is the 206 I had at Catalunya last year
[IMG]http://www.morgansegal.com/206.jpg[/IMG]
It was a blast, and really fast too :lol:
| o2sys | 12-23-2005 05:51 PM |
what a good thread haha (made by me) actaully learning and reading interesting stuff here
| chapstien | 12-23-2005 05:56 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXMaster]Dont ever listen to subaru usa salesmen ... they tend to pull information out of their @ss.
[/QUOTE]
Didn't the STi set the record at the ring in 2005 though? Stock?
[/QUOTE]
Didn't the STi set the record at the ring in 2005 though? Stock?
| WRXedUSA | 12-23-2005 07:08 PM |
[QUOTE=chapstien]Didn't the STi set the record at the ring in 2005 though? Stock?[/QUOTE]
Not really.
The Spec C got a sub-8 minute time, which is highly respected for a production based car. The SpecC was basically stock.
STi has their own facilities at the Ring (like many manufacturers), so they should be pretty good at it by now.
One addition to Mopho's rental car.
There is the '206 Cup' in the British rally ring, which RB won early in his career. That 206 was basically the car Mopho drove here.
Not really.
The Spec C got a sub-8 minute time, which is highly respected for a production based car. The SpecC was basically stock.
STi has their own facilities at the Ring (like many manufacturers), so they should be pretty good at it by now.
One addition to Mopho's rental car.
There is the '206 Cup' in the British rally ring, which RB won early in his career. That 206 was basically the car Mopho drove here.
| leaknoil | 12-23-2005 08:29 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]here is the 206 I had at Catalunya last year
[IMG]http://www.morgansegal.com/206.jpg[/IMG]
It was a blast, and really fast too :lol:[/QUOTE]
Can you fit anyone in the back ? That back seat looks small.
Room for two and a camera lens.
[IMG]http://www.morgansegal.com/206.jpg[/IMG]
It was a blast, and really fast too :lol:[/QUOTE]
Can you fit anyone in the back ? That back seat looks small.
Room for two and a camera lens.
| Mopho | 12-23-2005 08:51 PM |
[QUOTE=leaknoil]Can you fit anyone in the back ? That back seat looks small.
Room for two and a camera lens.[/QUOTE]
Hehe, your not going to believe this, no lie, we jammed in 4 people plus all our luggage (4 suitcases), PLUS my camera case (which is a rolling case that is the maximum size for carry on luggage) PLUS my lighting case ( a similar rolling case) PLUS a 4 foot tube containing lightstands, tripod, softbox etc and then we had our computer cases too!
And then we drove two hours to get to the rally :lol:
I was there to do a portrait of Sebastian Loeb (which ended up being a semi disaster) so I brought more gear than usual. I wish I had taken a picture of the car like that but my camera was buried :p
That car was wicked in the corners, I got to drive a couple of the stages with it
Room for two and a camera lens.[/QUOTE]
Hehe, your not going to believe this, no lie, we jammed in 4 people plus all our luggage (4 suitcases), PLUS my camera case (which is a rolling case that is the maximum size for carry on luggage) PLUS my lighting case ( a similar rolling case) PLUS a 4 foot tube containing lightstands, tripod, softbox etc and then we had our computer cases too!
And then we drove two hours to get to the rally :lol:
I was there to do a portrait of Sebastian Loeb (which ended up being a semi disaster) so I brought more gear than usual. I wish I had taken a picture of the car like that but my camera was buried :p
That car was wicked in the corners, I got to drive a couple of the stages with it
| REX8 | 12-23-2005 11:07 PM |
[QUOTE=chapstien]I am not so sure that the WRX is a rally-based car as much as leverages the success on it in WRC. A friend of mine sells subaru's, and he told me (I know - Urban Legand style-) that it has always been the engineers' focus to go fast at Nurburgring.
I started thinking about it, and you DO have to spend more to make the WRX a viable rally car that a track car. Completely new suspension, wheel, tires, brakes (gotta have 15's for real rally tires.)[/QUOTE]
You need all of those things for the track too. And if lapping the ring would have been a priority, the car would probably be RWD, and come with brakes that could hold up through the first 1 minute (of about 9). Salesmen probably know the least about cars than anyone else. If you ever want some incorrect info, ask the saleman. No offense to your friend, I'm sure he is a guru, just in general.
I started thinking about it, and you DO have to spend more to make the WRX a viable rally car that a track car. Completely new suspension, wheel, tires, brakes (gotta have 15's for real rally tires.)[/QUOTE]
You need all of those things for the track too. And if lapping the ring would have been a priority, the car would probably be RWD, and come with brakes that could hold up through the first 1 minute (of about 9). Salesmen probably know the least about cars than anyone else. If you ever want some incorrect info, ask the saleman. No offense to your friend, I'm sure he is a guru, just in general.
| Porter | 12-24-2005 09:15 AM |
[QUOTE=REX8]And if lapping the ring would have been a priority, the car would probably be RWD[/QUOTE]
:huh: :huh: :huh:
What brand of crack are you smoking?
:huh: :huh: :huh:
What brand of crack are you smoking?
| chapstien | 12-24-2005 12:59 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8] If you ever want some incorrect info, ask the saleman. No offense to your friend, I'm sure he is a guru, just in general.[/QUOTE]
Amazingly, he really does know a lot about cars, and normally checks his facts before spewing them. But there are occasions. He told me some guy came in and seemed to know a lot about cars. The fact that he could rev match on a test drive put in his mind credibility. He called excitedly to tell me that my RA gearset upgrade was a waste of money, that I should have put in a 2003 Forrester transmission because it would have been the same thing and no one would have opend my transmission - not the rear diff either. (Although I do wish I had not let Godspeed outsource it - it appears their guy but in together incorrectly.) I was suspicious since I had never heard even a suggestion to do that. So I looked up the ratios, and it seems to mee the trans is the exact same one as the WRX. the diffs would help, but just swapping the trans would result in a FU'd car. But at any rate, he actually cares to give people correct information.
Amazingly, he really does know a lot about cars, and normally checks his facts before spewing them. But there are occasions. He told me some guy came in and seemed to know a lot about cars. The fact that he could rev match on a test drive put in his mind credibility. He called excitedly to tell me that my RA gearset upgrade was a waste of money, that I should have put in a 2003 Forrester transmission because it would have been the same thing and no one would have opend my transmission - not the rear diff either. (Although I do wish I had not let Godspeed outsource it - it appears their guy but in together incorrectly.) I was suspicious since I had never heard even a suggestion to do that. So I looked up the ratios, and it seems to mee the trans is the exact same one as the WRX. the diffs would help, but just swapping the trans would result in a FU'd car. But at any rate, he actually cares to give people correct information.
| AlbaScoob | 12-24-2005 01:33 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXedUSA]Not really.
One addition to Mopho's rental car.
There is the '206 Cup' in the British rally ring, which RB won early in his career. That 206 was basically the car Mopho drove here.[/QUOTE]
RB won the 205 cup. A very different car although still with famous Peugeot go-kart handling. The 205 GTi came with a choice of 1600 or 1900cc engines.
206 was the replacement...my mum is on her 2nd one!
at the risk of straying off topic; some other responses...
[QUOTE=dwx]There are RS200s that were sold, and then there are a few RS 200 Evolution cars that were sold. The Evo versions were much closer to the specs of the GrpB car, but even then they were not up to that level. The regular RS200 was 250 hp.[/QUOTE]
I was just checking...
Sometimes people confuse the RS200, RS2000 (the original MK2 and the 4x4 late model) and RS500
All totally different cars!
There are many kit versions of the RS200 around in the UK still. Donor parts car was a Ford Sierra XR4...branded a Merkur over here I believe but I may be corrected by car#555!
Even still...an Escort Cossie is extremely rare over here so point well made by the original poster.
here's some good info on the Mazda GTR
[url]www.mazdagtr.com[/url]
the Nissan Sunny/Pulsar GTR was also a beast but I dont think it made it here...
...still waiting for Chevy to do a "Rallye" edition of the Cobalt!
FWD wide maxi body, screaming 2.0L NA motor...
or how about a Scion Tc?!
hasnt someone over here taken one of them to the stages yet?!
One addition to Mopho's rental car.
There is the '206 Cup' in the British rally ring, which RB won early in his career. That 206 was basically the car Mopho drove here.[/QUOTE]
RB won the 205 cup. A very different car although still with famous Peugeot go-kart handling. The 205 GTi came with a choice of 1600 or 1900cc engines.
206 was the replacement...my mum is on her 2nd one!
at the risk of straying off topic; some other responses...
[QUOTE=dwx]There are RS200s that were sold, and then there are a few RS 200 Evolution cars that were sold. The Evo versions were much closer to the specs of the GrpB car, but even then they were not up to that level. The regular RS200 was 250 hp.[/QUOTE]
I was just checking...
Sometimes people confuse the RS200, RS2000 (the original MK2 and the 4x4 late model) and RS500
All totally different cars!
There are many kit versions of the RS200 around in the UK still. Donor parts car was a Ford Sierra XR4...branded a Merkur over here I believe but I may be corrected by car#555!
Even still...an Escort Cossie is extremely rare over here so point well made by the original poster.
here's some good info on the Mazda GTR
[url]www.mazdagtr.com[/url]
the Nissan Sunny/Pulsar GTR was also a beast but I dont think it made it here...
...still waiting for Chevy to do a "Rallye" edition of the Cobalt!
FWD wide maxi body, screaming 2.0L NA motor...
or how about a Scion Tc?!
hasnt someone over here taken one of them to the stages yet?!
| StuBeck | 12-24-2005 10:30 PM |
[QUOTE=Porter]:huh: :huh: :huh:
What brand of crack are you smoking?[/QUOTE]
What do you mean? RWD means more power to the ground and the car could use more power to teh ground if its going for Nurburgring times.
Doesn't the WRC car actually run a front mount intercooler? I thought that is why they run a smaller hood scoop to save on aero.
What brand of crack are you smoking?[/QUOTE]
What do you mean? RWD means more power to the ground and the car could use more power to teh ground if its going for Nurburgring times.
Doesn't the WRC car actually run a front mount intercooler? I thought that is why they run a smaller hood scoop to save on aero.
| Homemade WRX | 12-25-2005 12:35 AM |
[QUOTE=StuBeck]What do you mean? RWD means more power to the ground and the car could use more power to teh ground if its going for Nurburgring times.
Doesn't the WRC car actually run a front mount intercooler? I thought that is why they run a smaller hood scoop to save on aero.[/QUOTE]
If I were going for a track car I would make it RWD too...
and yes WRC subaru's are indeed front mount intercooled with smaller scoop for less drag...
Doesn't the WRC car actually run a front mount intercooler? I thought that is why they run a smaller hood scoop to save on aero.[/QUOTE]
If I were going for a track car I would make it RWD too...
and yes WRC subaru's are indeed front mount intercooled with smaller scoop for less drag...
| WJM | 12-25-2005 07:26 AM |
[QUOTE=Porter]:huh: :huh: :huh:
What brand of crack are you smoking?[/QUOTE]
I think he forgot to add 'Mid-' to it....:lol:
What brand of crack are you smoking?[/QUOTE]
I think he forgot to add 'Mid-' to it....:lol:
| WJM | 12-25-2005 07:34 AM |
To me, you can take botht eh STi and EVO off the showroom floor, and go beat up on it in a Group N tarmac rally, AS THEY SIT ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.
Put gravel tires on them....and I am more than sure you could do the same on gravel.
I strongly believe that both cars are more than capable of being off the showroom floor rally cars.....THATS WHAT THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR.
The other makers, presently, dont offer anything like that. Dodge has the ACR Neon and ACR SRT4 (out of production now) for autox and showroom stock road racing classes, and more...they are more than capable in stock form. I've seen the older ACR Neons and they do their job quite well. Porsche has the GT2 and GT3...along with the 911 Turbo...those 3 are killer right away on track.
Back in the day...Toyota has the AllTrac...but it was SUPER heavy (I corner balanced on, dry weight was 3380! :eek: :huh: :lol: ) and I dont know where all that weight is...it LOOKS like a small car...feels much larger inside...???? Then Audi has its Quattro...
Beyond that, I dont think anyone else is interesting is building TRUE performance cars ready to race off the showroom floor. SUBARU is doing a DAMN fine job with the WRX and STi....Mitsu is 'ok' with the EVO...Porsche is doing great with their GT2, 3 and 911T....
I think SUBARU is marking to their current target market(s) just fine....;)
As for the drag cars, they can kiss my MFing azz. What a WASTE.
Put gravel tires on them....and I am more than sure you could do the same on gravel.
I strongly believe that both cars are more than capable of being off the showroom floor rally cars.....THATS WHAT THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR.
The other makers, presently, dont offer anything like that. Dodge has the ACR Neon and ACR SRT4 (out of production now) for autox and showroom stock road racing classes, and more...they are more than capable in stock form. I've seen the older ACR Neons and they do their job quite well. Porsche has the GT2 and GT3...along with the 911 Turbo...those 3 are killer right away on track.
Back in the day...Toyota has the AllTrac...but it was SUPER heavy (I corner balanced on, dry weight was 3380! :eek: :huh: :lol: ) and I dont know where all that weight is...it LOOKS like a small car...feels much larger inside...???? Then Audi has its Quattro...
Beyond that, I dont think anyone else is interesting is building TRUE performance cars ready to race off the showroom floor. SUBARU is doing a DAMN fine job with the WRX and STi....Mitsu is 'ok' with the EVO...Porsche is doing great with their GT2, 3 and 911T....
I think SUBARU is marking to their current target market(s) just fine....;)
As for the drag cars, they can kiss my MFing azz. What a WASTE.
| EnterTheDragon | 12-25-2005 08:14 AM |
[QUOTE=bfodle]What about the old Hyundais? LOL!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:[/QUOTE]
Laugh all you want but they used to be at the top of the podium in the US Pro Rally
Laugh all you want but they used to be at the top of the podium in the US Pro Rally
| pedalpower | 12-25-2005 09:20 AM |
The second best car I ever owned was an '89 Mazda 323 GTX. It had AWD and a turbo'd 1.6 litre engine - I think the power rating was just 132hp, but it felt a lot stronger than that. It was a wonderfully balanced car and a blast to drive in the twisties. You may remember that Mazda had an advertising campaign in auto mags at the time showing the exploits of the rally version of the car. Most of my friends couldn't understand why anyone would pay a hefty premium for something that looked just like a regular little 2-door hatchback - but that's a typical North American attitude towards small high performance AWD drive cars.
| solo2wrx | 12-25-2005 11:22 AM |
The GTX was putting out something like 170 horse even though its ratings were lower than that. The car could create about 250 horse before it starts destroying its drivetrain. I got the opportunity to drive one that was putting about 200 whp and that is by far the most fun car I have ever driven and that is put ahead of some elite company.
| ANZAC_1915 | 12-25-2005 12:10 PM |
[QUOTE=dwx]There are RS200s that were sold, and then there are a few RS 200 Evolution cars that were sold. The Evo versions were much closer to the specs of the GrpB car, but even then they were not up to that level. The regular RS200 was 250 hp.[/QUOTE]
Not true. The RS200 Evolution had far more power than the Group B rally RS200, which topped out at around 450BHP on the 1.8 engine. The Evolution uses a 2.1 engine, with up to 650 BHP, mainly used for rallycross in Europe.
The "regular RS200 road car" could be bought with 250, 350 and 450BHP trim levels on the 1.8 engine. Technically speaking though the Evolutions were also road cars...
Not true. The RS200 Evolution had far more power than the Group B rally RS200, which topped out at around 450BHP on the 1.8 engine. The Evolution uses a 2.1 engine, with up to 650 BHP, mainly used for rallycross in Europe.
The "regular RS200 road car" could be bought with 250, 350 and 450BHP trim levels on the 1.8 engine. Technically speaking though the Evolutions were also road cars...
| ANZAC_1915 | 12-25-2005 12:11 PM |
re Hyundai [QUOTE=EnterTheDragon]Laugh all you want but they used to be at the top of the podium in the US Pro Rally[/QUOTE]
With Mitsubishi drivetrain...
With Mitsubishi drivetrain...
| lunatictokyo | 12-25-2005 02:28 PM |
WRC cars are based off production cars .. and aside from physical resemblance .... the WRC and the road version are completely different cars .....
the old Group A cars and their street counterparts are what made Imprezas (pre-97 turbo models )and Evolution (I to VI) so famous and desirable ... the road cars are actually based off the race car for homologation purposes .... all of that ended with the termination of Group A after 96, and the advant of the WRC class
now a days, if you want something that is similiar to an actual race car, you have to look toward Group N cars and their street counterparts .... the regular Impreza STI is not a Group N homologation model ... however, the Impreza STI Spec C is .... however Group N cars are as 'aggressively modified' than the old Group A cars ...
the old Group A cars and their street counterparts are what made Imprezas (pre-97 turbo models )and Evolution (I to VI) so famous and desirable ... the road cars are actually based off the race car for homologation purposes .... all of that ended with the termination of Group A after 96, and the advant of the WRC class
now a days, if you want something that is similiar to an actual race car, you have to look toward Group N cars and their street counterparts .... the regular Impreza STI is not a Group N homologation model ... however, the Impreza STI Spec C is .... however Group N cars are as 'aggressively modified' than the old Group A cars ...
| bluetwo | 12-25-2005 02:48 PM |
Yep. Group N racers (and those who aspire to Group N) represent a huge portion of the cars market. At least from I've read. And I believe that homologations are commonly made for the purpose of competition in this segment.
| The Beast | 12-25-2005 03:29 PM |
jeez, why havent I heard some of my favorite old school rally cars yet?
wheres the mk3 supra?
mitsu starion?
DAMMIT! I cant post the video 'till I have 5 posts! you just wait!
wheres the mk3 supra?
mitsu starion?
DAMMIT! I cant post the video 'till I have 5 posts! you just wait!
| ANZAC_1915 | 12-25-2005 03:33 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]The street cars are not rally based, it's the other way around, rally cars are based on the street cars[/QUOTE]
Not totally true in the case of the Escort Cosworth or RS200.
The rally car and homologation/production vehicles were developed in tandem, with the idea that the road cars would be sold to ensure homologation (Grp A for Escort Cosworth and Grp B for RS200).
An Escort Cosworth Grp A prototype actually won a rally in 1990, 2 years before the production version was released.
Glenn
Not totally true in the case of the Escort Cosworth or RS200.
The rally car and homologation/production vehicles were developed in tandem, with the idea that the road cars would be sold to ensure homologation (Grp A for Escort Cosworth and Grp B for RS200).
An Escort Cosworth Grp A prototype actually won a rally in 1990, 2 years before the production version was released.
Glenn
| Imola | 12-25-2005 04:29 PM |
I agree with whoever said "bring back homoligation!" That would make things alot more interesting.
I don't think anyone has mentioned the Mazda 323 GTX of 88 and 89. Fairly dominant in group N those years and did ok in group A (had transmission woes), I think the car only won one rally in group A. I own one of the 1200 that were sold in the US. Not that many around anymore, as many were totaled in SCCA rally events (which they also dominated).
I don't think anyone has mentioned the Mazda 323 GTX of 88 and 89. Fairly dominant in group N those years and did ok in group A (had transmission woes), I think the car only won one rally in group A. I own one of the 1200 that were sold in the US. Not that many around anymore, as many were totaled in SCCA rally events (which they also dominated).
| Imola | 12-25-2005 04:35 PM |
Ok forgive me if this has been said already (dont have time to read all 200 replies!), someone said the cars arent rally based, the rally cars are street based, which I guess is somewhat true, but kind of misses the point. I would like to point out that when Subaru designed the original impreza, and the 2002 model, they went to Prodrive and literally asked "what do we need to do to make this a successful rally car?" The legecy, the company's main competetion car before the Impreza, was not designed this way.
| Imola | 12-25-2005 04:47 PM |
Crap, people mentioned the GTX already, sorry. Anyway, Solo, the GTX really did put out only 132 from the factory, but with a exhaust, intake, chip, and MBC you were running 200hp (flywheel). The next gen car (only sold in Japan) came with a 1.8 (the BPT) and made a 170hp in GTX form and like 210?? maybe in GTR form. My car has the first two, and it is faster than my 00 2.5 RS (stock). I was guessing around [email�protected] Yeah, I surprised a quite a few people in that car. Its funny, only Geo Storms and 4cylinder family sedans even bothered looking at me, the car is so sedate looking, mine has the turbo stickers taken off of it. But it has 135k on it, and it blew a headgasket. I am trying to figure out a way to keep it at the moment.
And BTW, I promise to read through the entire thread before posting next time!!!
And BTW, I promise to read through the entire thread before posting next time!!!
| richde | 12-25-2005 05:34 PM |
[QUOTE=Imola]Ok forgive me if this has been said already (dont have time to read all 200 replies!), someone said the cars arent rally based, the rally cars are street based, which I guess is somewhat true, but kind of misses the point. I would like to point out that when Subaru designed the original impreza, and the 2002 model, they went to Prodrive and literally asked "what do we need to do to make this a successful rally car?" The legecy, the company's main competetion car before the Impreza, was not designed this way.[/QUOTE]
....and that will always be very cool.
....and that will always be very cool.
| Homemade WRX | 12-25-2005 05:38 PM |
[QUOTE=Imola]I agree with whoever said "bring back homoligation!" That would make things alot more interesting.
I don't think anyone has mentioned the Mazda 323 GTX of 88 and 89. [/QUOTE]
That was me and yes 323gtx's were mentioned and are very cool cars
I don't think anyone has mentioned the Mazda 323 GTX of 88 and 89. [/QUOTE]
That was me and yes 323gtx's were mentioned and are very cool cars
| ANZAC_1915 | 12-25-2005 07:26 PM |
[QUOTE=Homemade WRX]That was me and yes 323gtx's were mentioned and are very cool cars[/QUOTE]
Don't forget the 323 GTR!
Don't forget the 323 GTR!
| Homemade WRX | 12-25-2005 08:57 PM |
but we didn't have those stateside
| ANZAC_1915 | 12-26-2005 12:06 AM |
[QUOTE=Homemade WRX]but we didn't have those stateside[/QUOTE]
Some people did. Millen was using one. (I know, factory backed blah blah).
I thought a few were imported?
Some people did. Millen was using one. (I know, factory backed blah blah).
I thought a few were imported?
| Homemade WRX | 12-26-2005 12:15 AM |
[QUOTE=Glenn Wallace]Some people did. Millen was using one. (I know, factory backed blah blah).
I thought a few were imported?[/QUOTE]
from when I was doing some 323 background stuff for a buddy who was looking to buy, one of the gtx groups at least lead me to believe they weren't stateside (excusing few rare imports)...
I thought a few were imported?[/QUOTE]
from when I was doing some 323 background stuff for a buddy who was looking to buy, one of the gtx groups at least lead me to believe they weren't stateside (excusing few rare imports)...
| o2sys | 12-26-2005 10:58 AM |
i was more interested in current models....
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